Not Quite White: When Racial Ambiguity Meets Whiteness

by Special Correspondent Nadra Kareem

I first met my significant other at a literary reading featuring writer Sherman Alexie. Those fortunate enough to have encountered the author of The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in Heaven know that he uses comedy during his performances to explore race. That said, it came as no surprise to me during his appearance when Alexie discussed how racially ambiguous Native Americans look by joking, “People always think I’m half of whatever they are.”

My then soon-to-be boyfriend laughed hysterically throughout the reading. He’s not Native American—not by more than a drop, anyway—but he is often assumed to be “other.” In fact, at the reading even I assumed that he was half-something, and the mostly Latino and black students he teaches routinely ask him the question that makes mixed folks worldwide cringe: “What are you?”

The answer he gives is one they don’t expect. “I’m white,” he says.

“You’re not white! You’re not white!” they protest in disbelief. And they are not alone. Both strangers and acquaintances alike take it for granted that my boyfriend is a person of color. When the teachers at the school take count of their few white colleagues, my boyfriend is oft-overlooked. His dark-brown hair, beige-pink skin, prominent nose and lush lips take him out of the running. “You can pass,” one of his coworkers tells him. Only, in his case, she means pass for non-white.

Her observation brings to mind the groundbreaking essay “Passing for White, Passing for Black” by artist Adrian Piper. In the essay, Piper suggests peering at a white person’s features and complimentarily telling the person that he or she appears to have African ancestry, then watching the person’s reaction. She writes:

The ultimate test of a person’s repudiation of racism is not what she can contemplate doing for or on behalf of black people, but whether she herself can contemplate calmly the likelihood of being black. If racial hatred has not manifested itself in any other context, it will do so here if it exists, in hatred of the self as identified as the other—that is, as self-hatred projected onto the other.

To date, I’ve never taken Piper up on her suggestion. Whenever I encounter someone who appears to be not quite white, I tend to keep the thought to myself. Yet, I have seen white people recoil at the idea that they are not purely white. There was the classmate in high school who couldn’t come to grips with the idea that the first humans were from Africa, as that would mean that somewhere down the line, albeit very far down the line, he had African ancestry. There was the white classmate in college who flew into a rage when a biracial classmate argued that everyone is mixed. “My family’s from Norway. I’m 100 percent Norwegian!” protested the white classmate much too defensively given the conversation’s theoretical nature.

My boyfriend, in contrast, seems to take the suggestion that he’s not quite white with a grain of salt. His ethnicity has been under fire for much of his life. In grade school, classmates taunted him by referring to him as “Jew boy.” For the record, he is French, Hungarian, Italian and Spanish, with some Cherokee and Cajun heritage thrown in for good measure. He is equally unruffled when I name white celebrities who I regard as not quite white, such as Minnie Driver, who I wish would appear on “African American Lives”—stat! The show, which allows African Americans to trace their roots via historical records and DNA analysis, makes me wonder if it still troubles whites to be regarded as something other than that. That’s because almost every guest who appears on the show finds out that they have white or other non-black relatives.

In the same vein as “African American Lives,” “60 Minutes” recently featured a segment about a black woman and a white farmer who find out that they are cousins after their DNA is analyzed. In this case, the farmer had no qualms about being related to a black woman. In fact, in some cases, whites have their DNA analyzed specifically in hopes of discovering that they are not solely of European origin. Such was the situation in a New York Times article about white high school students who made this move so they could claim membership to an ethnic minority group and thereby increase their chances of college admission. (This move is problematic for all sorts of reasons, I know, but that’s another story.)

While these students had DNA analysis for personal gain, I would like to believe that the growing popularity of such analysis has made it more acceptable for whites with no ulterior motives to accept being not quite white. Still, I’m somewhat doubtful. In 2006, the last time I recall a white person’s whiteness being called into question, racism bubbled to the surface. That’s when Suri Cruise was born, and there was shock that she looked “so Asian.” To some, the offense in that description wasn’t the insinuation that Tom Cruise didn’t father the baby; simply saying that Suri appeared to be part-Asian amounted to an insult.

As I explore whether whites can contemplate being “other,” my boyfriend wonders why people of color are so eager to spot the otherness in whites. When someone assumes that he isn’t white, is it simply a case of mistaken identity or something more, he inquires? I suppose it is the latter.

I grew up trying to spot the otherness in whites—such as Janet on “Three’s Company” or the star of “Wonder Woman,” who, it turns out, is half-Mexican—because I was hungry to see myself represented in a medium in which my kind was mostly invisible. But that’s not the only reason I make such connections. On a subconscious level, I believe that I respond to white society’s rejection of blackness by projecting blackness onto whites. The rationale is that, if whites are part-black themselves, their racism doesn’t just amount to hatred of people of color but to a sort of self-hatred. In this way, it is easy to see how racism isn’t just damaging to its so-called targets but to society collectively.

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Regular Black Guy Posts July 22, 2008(Part II) « Regular Black Guy’s Blog on 22 Jul 2008 at 2:36 pm

    […] Not Quite White: When Racial Ambiguity Meets Whiteness via Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture by Nadra on 7/22/08 […]

  2. Regular Black Guy Posts July 23, 2008 « Regular Black Guy’s Blog on 23 Jul 2008 at 3:48 am

    […] (more…) […]

  3. Links vom 17. bis 24. Juli 2008 at i heart digital life on 25 Jul 2008 at 3:07 am

    […] Not Quite White: When Racial Ambiguity Meets Whiteness (at Racialicious) (tags: race passing usa whiteness weißsein körper) […]

  4. On Being Jewish and White Part 2: The JAP « Modern Mitzvot on 02 Aug 2008 at 6:40 pm

    […] that. As it is, I can understand why, without context, some readers interpreted the post as a white woman panicking over being “mistaken” for a POC. (This isn’t to say that I’m free from […]

Comments

  1. SoKoKo wrote:

    Minnie Driver is English with Scottish, Italian and French ancestry, so I’m not sure if an apperance on ‘African-American’ lives would yield anything interesting.

    I too am an acute stalker of the ‘potential otherness’ in white people, for the sam reason you are: ‘On a subconscious level, I believe that I respond to white society’s rejection of blackness by projecting blackness onto whites.’

    I thought this piece was beautifully written.

  2. Black Politics wrote:

    I’ve always hated how people are so inquisitive. Why can’t “whoever” you or “whatever” you are be your own business? I get this question a lot and no matter how much people play innocent when they ask, “What are you?” I can’t help but feel they’re in some way judgmental. Many whites want to find some white in me while many blacks think I’m not black enough. I usually run out of patience when people ask me that question.

  3. TheEnviousBlogger wrote:

    I totally agree with the last paragraph and understand your quest for representation. I think some people are certainly on the lookout for those that mirror themselves. I find myself looking for inner and outer similarities with others, so I think this can apply to race too.

  4. Cynthia wrote:

    I knew a guy who looked a little bit Asian, but he turned out to be white. He is of eastern European descent, so there’s a possibility that he does have some Asian in him. Another guy I knew growing up identifies as Chinese (both his parents are Hong Kong Chinese), yet looked half white when he was a little boy.

  5. Mammith wrote:

    This is an interesting subject and one which directly relates to past experiences on my part. My background is from Turkey which means I’m *officially* White-Other (thats the classification in the UK anyhow, I personally think the *other* is rather telling).

    However this to me makes no sense, I don’t feel white, I don’t look white (I’ve been thought of as anything from Mongolian to Argentinian to Afghani), I don’t *benefit* from any sort of white privilege and I get the same feelings of unease and irritations from ignorant statements and actions as any other POC.

    A lot of this has to do with what I believe is the notion of *true* whiteness, I don’t believe anyone in the Anglosphere truly is regarded as *properly* white unless they look/are Northern/Western European. I don’t even think a lot of Spanish, Portuguese and Italians are considered to be *properly* white, more like the poor cousins of the top-rung (I think it was napoleon that said Spain is where Africa begins, or something to that effect).

    I understand that POC can sometimes see the fact that some *white* people don’t have appearances that conform to what is thought to be white and call people up on it. I don’t think theres any underlying mechanism of projecting self-hatred or anything like that. It’s honestly because the myth of pure *whiteness* is something that doesn’t really hold up well against scrutiny.

  6. sejw wrote:

    Adrian Piper is *so* it! :-) One of her other pieces, Cornered, deals with these same issues: http://faculty.unlv.edu/pkane/ART230/soldier/cornered.mov

  7. Mickey wrote:

    Janet was/is half Mexican!?

    Great piece. I like to people watch and play the game “Spot the Incognegro*. I remember meeting a white guy with kinda coarse aburn hair, full lips and very strong cheekbones. I just knew I had spotted an Incognegro*.

    Just as White as he wanted to be.

    Maybe this goes back to the days of “passing” where we (Black folks) could always spot our own.

    *credit to Black Snob.

  8. Slush wrote:

    It can also be a compliment. When I was younger I was often asked if I had some non-white ancestry in a tone that suggested interest and possibly admiration, but nothing negative, I didn’t think. I think this was because I was in rural white America where people are generally much blonder, so my dark hair and eyes and eyebrows suggested something foreign and intriguing to people. Notably, this has never happened since I moved to more diverse or populous places. But in those earlier situations I thought the questions arose more out of curiosity about something that might be unusual than out of a normative judgment.

  9. Chairo wrote:

    Very interesting article.

    Reading the ironically titled, “blood foreigners” by Robert Winder, made me consider the xenophobia of many “english whites” .
    Fellow brits in here interested in the story of migration to our tiny island give the book a go.

    I think the reason why I also search for the otherness in “whites” is because of my passionate hatred for this stupid racial spectrum that society and individuals fuel so much.

    I’ve seen so many english whites, banging on and on about “england for the english. ” “we’re an anglo-saxon race”

    before the dark ages there were many waves of migration towards England
    Romans occupied the country for about 400 years, before then southern europeans came over,
    All this happened many hundreds and even thousands of years before Anglo-saxons.

    The idea of america being a “white country” is so stupid its funny, yet you’ll get these nationalists going on and on about racial purity; and on the tamer side of this idiocy you’ll get some whites(liberals and conservatives) saying, “why do ethnic minorities constantly cry about lack of representation; the country is mostly white anyway. the dudes in black suits are just listening to demographics”
    This assertion has the same flavour of racism; America is a white country shut up and get used to it.

    Ultimately both arguments are pro white patriarchal-status quo

    I’ll be happy when the day comes when countries no longer have a “race” claiming them.

    Bill (probably descended from persecuted irish) O’reilly :
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=MYmnSRLJkt4

  10. emfole wrote:

    I don’t think it’s racist to be aware of one’s ancestry and reject suppositions that one is something other than what she is… Also, I think that it is completely appropriate to ask people in a friendly, informal context “what” they are. I think that it’s a wonderful way to get to know someone and talk about the world in a larger context :). I love learning about other peoples’ backgrounds and sharing my own…I can see how this COULD be uncomfortable or inappropriate if approached in a affronted way. Also, I have asked other people who seem to be of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage if they are Jewish and have gotten a defensive response which I interpret as self-hatred…sigh….

  11. Ron wrote:

    I think our perception of race is so varied that it will be hard to categorize white people in the future.

    The one-drop rule is a haunting principle.

    When I see anyone without blue eyes and blonde (especially bleached or colored) hair, I try to figure out their ethnicity. I have only seen a handful of truly so-called pure white people in my life. I have not been to Sweden.

    I remember seeing an 0lder gentleman on the elevator with real blonde hair and I was almost in shock. It was like I had seen my first truly white person in a long time.

    So seeing a truly white person is acutally a rarity.

    For example, my neighbor decided to take her child out the neighborhood school because nonwhites wanted to touch her daughters naturally platinum blonde hair and made fun of her blondeness.

    I assume that ethnicity in the future may be more important than race. People identify themselves based upon the ancesterors’ nationality.

    People will say I am Welsh and English or Italian and Japanese and so forth not necessarily white.

  12. C-Marsh wrote:

    I’m an extremely light-skinned black guy with reddish/blondish hair and hazel eyes. I think my Great Great Grandfather was white, but my immediate family would not be mistaken for anything other Black. I grew up with the question, “What are you?” I never really minded the question; in fact, I liked it because it sometimes served as a conversation starter. I love that my family is demonstrative of the multiple color variations among the black community. I have eight brothers and sisters and we range from really dark skinned to light, bright, and almost white (me). The down side to being asked the, “What are you?” question was the doubt that the inquisitor would cast at my response. They would argue with me to try and tell me that I wasn’t black. People wanted me to give them a complete racial breakdown, so I would tell them that I was part Native American. I would say that I was from the “Mo-Nig” tribe…Mo Nigga than anything else. That usually gave me a good laugh, but left them quite unsatisfied.

    I think it’s fine to be curious, but don’t argue with the answer that I give…I’m sure I’m more right than you are.

  13. Anonymous wrote:

    I’m Eurasian, 1/4 Japanese and 3/4 white. Some people see me as White, others see me ‘other’. This varies, from people to asking if I’m South American, part Chinese (people rarely ask if I’m part-Asian or any other Asian nationality), or just not white. In my mind, I look neither Caucasian nor Asian, I just look like a mix, and I’m proud of that. Maybe its because of my identification with being mixed,but I am always looking to others to see if they are mixed, whatever the races may be, in order to feel some sort of sense of community with them.

    Also, this post reminds me of a girl I knew freshman yr at my college. Two of my friends asked her if she was part black at all, and she recoiled and adamantly denied this. I haven’t ever been able to respect her after this, and neither have my friends

  14. Jus Plain Ol Me wrote:

    Mickey:

    I think Linda Carter is who the article was referring to as “half Mexican.” Apparently, her dad was Irish and her mom was of Spanish and Mexican descent.

    I don’t know Janet’s (Joyce DeWitt’s) ethnic background. However, in trying to find out her background I learned that apparently since used to date LeVar Burton (of Star Trek The Next Generation, Roots and Reading Rainbow). According to Wikipedia (so take it for what it’s worth), she stopped dating him because her parents disapproved of the interracial relationship.

  15. Jus Plain Ol Me wrote:

    Ron:

    It is interesting that you mention the one-drop idea. I’m actually in the midst of reading “One Drop” by Bliss Broyard. It is quite an interesting read thus far.

  16. cosmicsistren wrote:

    Good article. I don’t know if what I am about to write correlates to the article but last week I saw a little black girl with blond hair and blue eyes. She was a caramel complexion. Makes me wonder if she will get taunted at school or will she be asked what is she since she clearly looked black.

  17. Mickey wrote:

    @ Jus Plain Ol Me:

    Thanks for the clarification. The caffeine has not worked it’s way through my system.

  18. Amanda wrote:

    And Ron, just to add to the guessing game, even blue eyes and blond hair do not necessarily a “true” white person make. My siblings and I are all mixed up with hair, eye and skin colors, yet we share the same DNA. Funny how that works…

  19. queerhapa wrote:

    emfole, if you were barraged, on a daily basis, by inquiries about “what you are” (”No really, what are you? Where are you from? No, I mean, where are your parents from? I mean, you know what I mean, right, I mean what’s your background? Are you Puerto Rican? Italian? Filipino, right? Wait, let me guess, you’re Chinese, right? What else? Wow that’s so exotic. That’s such a beautiful combination. How did that happen?” etc. etc. ad infinitum), I doubt you would think it was “completely appropriate” to question people about their race/ethnicity, even if you think you’re being friendly and informal and mean no harm. Being made to feel like you are a circus side show attraction whose very appearance is a source of endless amusement, entertainment and curiosity gets very very tiresome very very fast.

    I think several dynamics are going on when we try to pin down other people’s ethnic backgrounds, or when we “project otherness” (I love that term, BTW) onto people. Sometimes it’s because ambiguity is disconcerting, especially because we often use ethnic/racial “cues” to inform our interaction with others. Sometimes it’s to put those of us who are not-quite-white in our place. Sometimes it’s a comradely gesture to try to recognize and “claim” others as one of our own. And sometimes it’s just pure exotification.

  20. Eric Grant wrote:

    I know there’s lore in Britain (I don’t know how closely believed it is) that many Welsh, and of course the “Black Irish” are part African, by way of Spanish sailors or the remnants of the Armada or something. I’ve also gotten the gyst that the Spanish and the southern Italians are part African, too. Heck, between the Turks getting to the doorstep of Vienna, and the Moors getting to the doorstep of Paris (and never mind recent immigration waves) and the various riders from the steppes sweeping eastward, the idea of European= pure white is pretty odd.

    All I know is, my mum could never quite buy the future vision of Star Trek, ’cause she figured by then everyone on the planet would be a deep beige. And I know another guy who figures that in the future, everyone on the planet will basically be able to “pass” for Philippino.

  21. Eric Grant wrote:

    For clarity, I meant to say:
    “I’ve also gotten the gyst that some northern Europeans believe that the Spanish and the southern Italians are part African, too.”

  22. C-Marsh wrote:

    @ Anonymous

    Your comment reminds me of a project I did in a course in college. The project was about white privilege and showing how most whites don’t have to think about what it means to be white in America. We were supposed to go around and ask people what they were and what it meant to be white to see how responses varied. We asked this one girl what she was. She said “I’m Mexican, but not the dirty kind. My ancestors moved from Spain to Mexico.” Of course she was sitting with her white friends and obviously using this moment to show how disgusted she was with being associated with a Mexican. This same girl also dated one of my black friends, but told him “I can’t take you home because I don’t want my parents to know you’re black.” Granted, I did go to an extremely white private college with little non-white representation, but I had never seen ethnic/racial denial to this degree first hand. I’m sure this type of psyche was passed down from her parents. Sad to say the least…

  23. Jo wrote:

    I’m glad you wrote this piece, because it’s something I’ve been thinking about quite a bit, recently.

    For as long as I can remember, I’ve identified as white. My mother’s family is Jewish, but my understanding was that we were Ashkenazi Jews (from Germany and the Ukraine) and so as far as contemporary racial politics were concerned, basically white. My father’s family heritage is some mix of Western European, I don’t even really know where from. As a result, I always kind of figured I was white, and a Jew, but that the Jewish part was something I could choose to identify with and identify myself by, but that wasn’t immediately obvious by looking at me.

    As I’ve gotten older, probably over the last 3 years or so (I’m 22), I’ve become increasingly aware of the frequency with which I receive the “What are you?” or “Where are you from?” questions. This, at the time, had me thinking about a lot of things, but mostly, it made me think about the exotification and sexualization of women of color, because I was almost exclusively asked “what I was” or “where I was from” by men who were hitting on me. Most of the time, they guessed that I was from the Middle East or somewhere around the Mediterranean. (I got quite a few guesses of Persian and Greek.)

    For most of the last 3 years, I’ve understood this in the context of a sexualizing of the racial other, and the desire to see me as a woman of color because I would be more ‘exotic’ and appealing that way. I was angry, not so much because I was being read as a woman of color, but because it was ALWAYS sexual, and that said all sorts of shitty things to me about the way that white men (and white women for that matter, although I never experienced that kind of racialized sexualization from women) view women of color, and reminded me to be conscientious of the fact that I could respond with, “no, my family is from western and central Europe.”

    Over the last couple of months, though, I’ve had numerous friends (all of whom identify as white anti-racist allies and have some level of understanding of white privilege and individual and institutional racism) who’ve commented to me that I “don’t look white,” to them. This got me thinking on a whole different level, particularly because I also recently learned that before my family made their way to Germany, they lived in Portugal and possibly, before that, North Africa. As Sephardic Jews in a predominantly Ashkenazi community in Germany, for many years the Portugese community remained fairly insular. Suddenly, what I’d thought was a fairly straightforward Ashkenazi Jewish/white European mix heritage became more racially ambiguous.

    This hasn’t really bothered me, per se, if anything I’m more interested in learning about that part of my heritage, but it is something I’ve given a lot of thought in terms of how I relate to my white privilege. (And now, after a long winded explanation, I’m getting to my point.)

    I still think that, most of the time, I’m read as white, and I try to understand, take responsibility for, and be accountable for my white privilege in that light. But considering that I know of at least a few people who don’t think I look white, I have to wonder how consistent my “whiteness” is? This is not in an effort to abandon responsibility for the benefits and privileges I’ve received for my whiteness, rather, it is more so because it makes me wonder to what degree white privilege is a result of our own internalized racism and sense of racial hierarchy, and to what degree is it a result of how others treat us? How often might I have been treated ‘differently’ because of my perceived race and I didn’t notice, chalking it up to sexism or just someone having a bad day, because I identified as white? Has my own sense of self insulated me from the damaging and degrading effects of racism, and would that experience have been any different if I’d been raised with the belief or understanding that I was racially ambiguous? How might my experience differ now? To what degree does my understanding of my place in the world and the space I inhabit depend on my own identity and the lessons society has taught me about what that means, and to what degree does it depend on how other people identify me?

  24. Thea wrote:

    I know three white folks who look like they could be POCs. All three of them seem to like it when people think they are racially ambiguous.

    I think this has to do with there being a certain cache to having mixed blood - it makes them feel more exotic. One of them has yellow fever so I know he digs exoticism. It makes me uncomfortable whenever I have to listen to them talk about how “it’s so crazy how everyone thinks I’m not white!”

    On the other hand one of my best friends who is white dyed her hair black a few years ago. After that people would ask her a lot of if she was mixed or ask her “what are you?” I’m mixed and she told me that she never understood till then how irritating and discomfiting it was for me when people asked me that. So I guess it can also be a kind of diversity training for some white folks!

    My search to see myself represented in pop culture led to an undying (and often mocked!) love for Keanu Reeves…

  25. emfole wrote:

    @queerhapa–> Of course it is inappropriate to barrage a person with questions about their heritage in the way that you described. However, I do not think that asking questions about a person’s background should be considered rude or taboo in general without considering context. ALL questions one may ask another should be done respectfully and consensually. Of course, I am a white Jew and therefore it has been rare that people have assumed that I am anything other than white. Therefore, I am coming from a privileged place when I talk about race. Put in another context that I do have experience in, I have been made very uncomfortable when asked by straight people if I am gay. (I am bi and identify as queer) So, people have often said that I should be one or the other etc…similar to racially mixed people????

  26. dt wrote:

    Great piece. I’m mixed (I cringe at fractions) Jamaican and Armenian, which means half of my family is mainly Black and the other half is, well, on a racial borderline (I’m with you on this, Mammith - the problem I think is that when we are talking about race and privilege we often say ‘White’ when we should be saying ‘European’ - it is possible to be non-European, have white colored skin, and distinctively non-European features, and that experience I believe is distinct from the white european experience) . For whatever genetic reason I’ve ended up with fairly light skin, clearly part-African hair, and features that different people think are from different places. I’ve been confused for white, latino, and ashkenazi jewish (”nope, it’s not a ‘jew fro,’ it’s an Afro.”), and I do recall my answer to the “what are you” question having people argue with me from time to time.

    I don’t mind the “what are you” question when it comes from a friend or someone who otherwise knows me decently- in fact, in the case of friends, I’d rather them ask than assume the wrong thing. I do mind when it comes from a stranger or someone who hasn’t gotten a chance to know me. I suspect I’m not the only person who feels this way, because while I’m very proud of my ethnicity and race, I want people to see me as a person first and foremost.

    What people see you as really is a matter of context. If I dress up in a polo shirt, in a big city many people will see me as White. If I go through White rural America, no matter what I do people will see me as non-White. If I get arrested or thrown in jail, people see me as Black.

    I think that racist institutions have tried to tear people of color apart by emphasizing the differences between us and downplaying our common experience as victims of racism. I think we need to understand that concepts like “passing,” paper bag tests, colorism in general, and everything related comes from white racism that has been imposed on us for centuries. There is a desire simultaneously to use the “one drop” rule when it comes to securing privilege for White people but also to divide the people of color so that the lighter folk and the darker folk get played against each other. So I engage in and encourage other people of color to engage in seeing the non-white in people, because if we can see the non-white then others can too, and that person may very well identify as a person of color, and I’d hate to assume otherwise.

  27. lunanoire wrote:

    Comicsistren, it probably depends on her environment, but she’ll likely get a lot of attention from strangers due to her appearance.

    This is beat into the ground, but yes, b/c of the one drop rule, black ID ppl have a wide range of appearances, but most of us don’t have red or blond or big curly hair or light eyes.

    *Maybe she’ll get a modeling contract*/sarcasm

    I was in a grocery store and saw a redhead hapa kid (he and his presumed bro were getting repeatedly told to stop fooling around by his presumed mom, an E. Asian Am woman) and thought to myself, “that kid’s gonna get a lot of attention.”

  28. Roni wrote:

    I’ve experienced this, and it’s something I’ve thought about a lot in reading Racialicious. I’m white, but I look plausibly multiracial Asian. Enough I’ve been asked what I am, and have had a few racial slurs hurled at me. My experience fits with the article, in that people of mixed race are usually the ones that ask or assume I’m multi-racial as well.
    Not a lot mind you, but enough I wonder how many people assume I’m of mixed race and don’t say anything.

    I’ve been thinking about this a bit more in the last year, beyond Racilicious, when I found out one my great grandmothers, whom I’ve thought was Polish all my life, was actually Lithuanian. Sure a still Caucasian near neighbor, but it emphasized how much my family, both sides early 20th century immigrants, rejected their pasts and tried very hard to assimilate. Enough that I don’t know anything about anyone beyond my great grandparents, except for some iteration of grandfather that was “something else, I don’t remember”.

    I’m not bothered by the idea or assumption of being part Asian. I imagine in large part because with both or my parents being martial arts students/teachers as well as my Dad being a tournament fighter, I grew up in a very pro-Asian household, arguably to the point of fetishism.

    If I feel drawn to something culturally Asian, it’s hard to say if I’m identifying with it or fetishizing it. Am I appreciating it, appropriating it and trying to pass? Is it morally questionable for me to dye my hair black? Would finding out I’m a tiny percentage Asian substantially change any on these questions? (Depends. No. Probably not.)

    It’s not something I think about every day, but when it comes up, it raises some interesting questions.

  29. Ali wrote:

    @C-Marsh - “Mo-Nig” tribe made me laugh. Thanks

  30. TM wrote:

    @ Queer hapa whoe wrote: “I think several dynamics are going on when we try to pin down other people’s ethnic backgrounds, or when we “project otherness” (I love that term, BTW) onto people. Sometimes it’s because ambiguity is disconcerting, especially because we often use ethnic/racial “cues” to inform our interaction with others. Sometimes it’s to put those of us who are not-quite-white in our place. Sometimes it’s a comradely gesture to try to recognize and “claim” others as one of our own. And sometimes it’s just pure exotification.”

    I think you summed it up beautifully.

  31. Roni wrote:

    I forgot to add, reminded by my reading queerhapas’ comment, that the article on the phenomenon of ” What are you?/ Where are you from?/ Where are your parents from?” blew my mind . I’ve been asked that enough for it to be weird bit, particularly when I spent about 10 years living in the Midwest. I thought I might have a bit of an accent I can’t hear, but friends have said I don’t. (I’m from New England) Now I’m thinking twice about it.

    I’ve hesitated bringing this up on other threads because I didn’t want to sound like a white person trying to fit in by appropriating multi-racial experiences.

  32. Lisa wrote:

    Yeah, “whiteness” and conceptualizations therein are not absolute. My WASP family considers Catholics and Jews to not be really “white”; I consider anyone from north of Pakistan and west of Sichuan, ie Caucasian, to be “white”. (And then my younger cousins didn’t even know the term WASP until I told them, so ethnicity-less/normal does my family consider themselves.)

    Really, everyone is mixed. I see Chinese people with natural ‘fros, gotta wonder where those came from. There was a big Persian Zoastrian refugee population in Shanghai 500 years ago, who got absorbed into the local DNA pool. My own family, for their Anglo-Aryan pretensions have an Italian surname, some closet Norweigan, and possibly some secret African and Native American ancestry given how many generations have been in the Americas. Or I have an Indonesian-Chinese friend, who is very amused how her family insists they are 100% Chinese (and thus aligned with the elite) when they are very, very obviously at least a quarter native Indonesian.

    In China, everyone loves a round of the “Categorize the foreigner!” game. Oddly, I sometimes get French, but usually Russian - the one thing I definitely am not and do not at all look like. Eh, we all look the same.

  33. Joseph wrote:

    @Mickey

    Um.

    ::Clears throat::

    That “Incognegro” thing is kind of horseshit.

    Just walking around, living my life, looking the way I look doesn’t mean I am trying to “pass” as anything. If my features seem racially ambiguous what am I supposed to do, wear a sign? For whose benefit? Yours?

    I cosign queerhapa re: “What are you?” This may be a novel conversation starter in some contexts but–as I’ve said before–try getting this question in a job interview (or two…or three) and it gets old real fast. I don’t think “What are you?” is an appropriate question whether I get it from “White” or “Black” folks. I think the subtext of this question–when it is directed at me anyway–is about the askers anxiety with racial ambiguity, not anything truly about me.

    My bottom line is, it is not my job to reassure you about your racial category. I’m just living my life. Which is why the “Ingognegro” thing rubs me the wrong way. It means that–for you–I am activating a practice of racial self hatred just by, you know, having a face.

  34. Abu Sinan wrote:

    @Amanda,

    You are right, blond hair and blue eyes doesnt mean someone is white.

    I have traveled over most of the Middle East and seen some really blond haired and blue eyed people in places like Syria, Palestine and Lebanon, Kurds as well are known for it.

    Some of these people might have had some European ancestors, vikings sold white slaves to Arabs almost 1,000 years ago, but I dont think anyone would argue that these people with blond hair and blue eyes are white because of a European ancestor 1,000 years ago.

    I am a blond haired blue eyed white guy, born in Germany, I am married to an Arab. Our children are therefore bi-racial, yet they are very white with dark blond hair and hazel eyes.

    Not even genetic markers as indicated by appearance is a good judge of race anymore as the world is a much more diverse place than most people know.

    One of my better friends is a Palestinian, his family has been in Palestine since right after the time of the Prophet. He has bright red hair and beard, green eyes and is very white. He could have walked off some stage set for a production about the Highlands of Scotland, but he is Muslim and Arab, and wouldnt take it kindly if anyone thought different.

    Just looking at someone anymore is NOT enough to establish someone’s race. My wife is Arab, but Latina’s always think she is Latina, Indians think she is Indian, Morrocans think she is Morrocan.

    Racial ambiguity is becoming the norm and people should start getting used to it.

  35. sk wrote:

    Mammith: I learned precisely how strongly many Europeans felt about the non-whiteness of folks from Turkey when I lived in Germany briefly, and a graduate student in philosophy politely informed me that Turkey could never join the EU, because the Turks were the blacks of Europe.
    An interesting piece, Nadra. Piper’s thought experiment is interesting, but I think that one aspect is missing from it: those who have replaced a horror of blackness with a fetishisation of it.

  36. XT wrote:

    I’ve been waiting to read something like this! I’m white, but don’t look it to most people. I’m constantly asked “What are you?” and “Where are from?” I struggle with knowing that I have white privilege, because I’m white, and yet I’m not perceived as white…so where does that leave me?

    As some other posters have written about, it’s a matter of some people being not being comfortable with “ambiguousness”. It’s funny to watch people’s faces after you say to them “What do you think I am?” And watch them try to guess. Then they’re shocked when I tell them “white” after they’ve listed everything from Eastern European to Latino/Chicano to Middle Eastern, etc. People want to be able to pin you down to a certain group, whether it’s race or ethnicity, sexuality, etc.

  37. XT wrote:

    emfole: Also, I think that it is completely appropriate to ask people in a friendly, informal context “what” they are.

    I would disagree. After being asked my entire life “What are you? What is your background? Are you really *insert ethnic background here* because you don’t look it? etc” I don’t find any variation of being asked “what” I am to be polite. queerhapa already said it better than I ever could, but it is othering to be on the end of that question. To me it means, especially when coming from white people, “You don’t look white so I want to know what you are.” It’s different, perhaps, if it is between friends or if you volunteer the information yourself, but having colleagues or complete strangers ask you a personal question based on how they interpret your looks? Not cool.

  38. Rosa wrote:

    Mammith, that “White - Other” thing is interesting. In the States, Turkish immigrants sued to be recognized as White under the old specifically race-based immigration quotas and for purposes of doing business under Jim Crow. I saw an exhibit about one of the cases at the Wing Luke museum in Seattle.

    The truth is, none of us really know our ancestry. Nobody knows who one of my great-uncle’s daddy was. Great-grandma never told, it’s blank in the family Bible, the dates mean it’s not the same as her other kids. I think a lot of families have those blanks.

  39. m dot wrote:

    I guess I’d be OK if I found out how “white” or non-Black I might be, but at the end of the day… I don’t really care. People look at me, and they get it. There’s no need for further discussion.

    However, I never quite understood until very recently why people who aren’t so “easily spotted” would have an issue coming up with an answer. For example, when I started dating my ex-boyfriend, I tried so hard not to ask what his family ancestry was, but it would eat me up. I knew he was white, but I wanted to know nationality and learn about cultural differences so that they could be appreciated and celebrated. I finally just asked him, but I ask all those who are used to being asked: Is it that bad to ask? Does it really piss you off that much that others want to know?

    Thanks.

  40. deb wrote:

    Thanks for posting this, Nadra! There a few people on my “not quite white” list. For starters, them Van Halen brothers. For the longest, I couldn’t figure out their ethnicity. I thought that perhaps they were Native American. Turns out they are half Dutch and half Indonesian.

    In spite of their fair hair, eyes, and skin I don’t think actresses Chloe Sevigny, or <a href=”http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2008-04/37480467.jpg” are quite white. I don’t know exactly why I think this, but I really like your resp0nse:

    “On a subconscious level, I believe that I respond to white society’s rejection of blackness by projecting blackness onto whites. The rationale is that, if whites are part-black themselves, their racism doesn’t just amount to hatred of people of color but to a sort of self-hatred. “

    When members of white supremacist groups squawk about racial purity, I love the thought that some of them could be passing and not even know it.

  41. Black Canseco wrote:

    I had a friend in college who was 100% Sicilian–cyclist. (no stereotype there.) Mike used to tell me all kinds of horror stories about how much Italians hated Sicilians because of the Moorish ties. (Sicily was a trading port for Arab and Northern African Merchants. Interracial relationships were common there, but frowned on the further north you went up the italian pennisula.)

    I for a while i thought he was making it up; but when you’re black as i am and get caught in little italy in chicago (think: taylor street, etc) enough times, you hear enough names, called enough crap that you realize there’s a lot of truth to it.

    anyway…

    I use this example a lot because it always irks my sports fans friends:

    Widely considered the greatest pure hitter of all-time, Ted Williams was thought to be white. But he was raised by his Mexican mother who he almost never talked about. He talked up his irish father quite a bit. but never his mom.

    Had fans known, I doubt ted would’ve been so popular.

    also,

    Roy Cappanella, widely considered one of the greatest baseball players in history was born to an Italian father (campanella) but the MLB didn’t embrace him because he was also born to a black mother. Therefore he was stuck in the Negro Leagues until 1948. italian fans didn’t embrace him because he was “too black”.

  42. livininphilly wrote:

    Great piece! I really want to try what Piper said. See what type of reacions I get.
    @ SoKoKo: it’s interesting that you say that Minnie Driver’s ethnicity may not bring up anything of note on African American Lives. Depending on where her ancestors come from in Italy or France she may very well have African ancestry.
    I say this b/c when I went to Siciliy I had some very interesting “I need to step outside of my US based race framework” moments. Here is an example:
    My dad purchased alot of religious pieces for my grandma b/c they represented Jesus & Mary as “black” (please note: we thought they were black b/c of the depictions of hair texture.) When we inquired as to why there were so many religious statues of “black” people we were told that they weren’t black at all but that they were Sicilian people.
    Finally, this peice made me think of what clues I use to spot the “otherness” the first thing that came to mind when I can’t tell from skin color is hair texture, then nose, then lips.

  43. Michelle wrote:

    This article was incredibly well written. It was thoughtful, honest and very clear and to the point. I just wanted to say kudos!

  44. Eva wrote:

    People always ask my mother what she is, when she tells them she’s black, they’re shocked. “No you’re not,” she’s been told. They usually think she’s Italian/Jewish/Hispanic, anything but black.

    This happened when she was on a jury and the defendant complained that the jury was all white, the plaintif’s side said that my mother wasn’t white, so the judge called Mom into her chambers, with the lawyers present and said, “we have some questions about your ethnicity.” She told them, “I’m black, PERIOD.”

  45. Tarah wrote:

    Nadra, this is a beautiful piece. Thank you. And you gave me much to think about. I might even do a blog post on it soon, but on my own blog.

  46. Abu Sinan wrote:

    @Joe,

    I am guilty of the “where is your family from” myself. For me it is done really out interest but I have tried to tone it down because I know it can be taken other ways.

    I usually do it to people I think might be from the MENA (Middle East/North Africa). I actually got the habit from my wife who will usually ask the question in Arabic and somehow 99.999% of the time she is completely correct and the person speaks Arabic.

    For me it really is out of interest and a chance to pratice my Arabic. I used to do a lot of hiring but certainly drew the line there! I would NEVER have even thought about asking such a question from a perspective employee no matter my intention.

  47. Jaye wrote:

    I’m one of those “ambiguous”-raced looking people, and I’ve gotten the “where are you from…no where are you really from” my whole life. It depends on who is asking it, their tone, the context…it used to bother me, until I realized that when I couldn’t figure out someone’s race, it would make me a bit crazy and I would eventually ask. It is a bit strange to be around someone for awhile and not know their racial background, at least it is to me.
    And it’s not just white people that ask me, everyone of every race wants to know. But there is a bit of entitlement by certain white people at times, it can be rude depending on how they ask. If I feel uncomfortable with their tone of voice, or even if I don’t, I often ask them back, “And what are you?”
    Especially if they look like a “typical” white person, I’ve gotten reactions raging from slight discomfort, surprise, to visibly offended. They’re not used to being asked that. But I’m not asking just to show them how it feels, I’m genuinely curious, because I’ve realized that “white” is not a race, and that most white people are a mix of many different ancestries, and I really want to know.
    So a lot of people answer “I’m white” or “I’m Canadian or American”, as though that settles it. But I usually push for a more specific answer, because a lot of people don’t really want to tell me, even though they felt entitled to ask me first. And I ask them where exactly from Europe they are from, and if they are still trying not to answer, I ask them for the last names of their mother and father, and then ask what European country those names are from. I’ve definitely realized that I make a lot of assumptions about white people and their racial backgrounds.

  48. Clueless WW wrote:

    I remember learning in grade school that I was part German — when my parents gave me a very stern scolding after some other girls and I were teasing a German American classmate and calling her a Nazi. (I’m still insanely ashamed of doing that.) Part of the scolding [paraphrased] was, “You’re German too, you idiot”, which horrified me — all I’d ever learned as a third-grader was that Nazis lived in Germany.

  49. Clueless WW wrote:

    (arrrgh!!! didn’t mean to press post yet!!! here’s the rest…)

    I also remember being flirted with in college by an upperclassman who insisted I must have Native American blood, because I was so hot. I laughed and ignored him, he was drunk and stupid; but I also was a bit flattered because I always wanted to be more interesting than Irish and German and English and French.

    And now at 30, I’m at the point where I’d like to have any sort of interesting ancestor. I’m interested in the Quaker clockmaker guy who emigrated from London. I’m interested in the poor Scottish woman whose last name I’ve never found, “Mary” from Glasgow. I’m interested in the French Canadian boy who ran away from home at the age of 10 and always told his kids and grandkids he entered the US without noticing (although how he crossed the St. Lawrence River without noticing would be something of a feat). I don’t really care where they came from or “what” they are, I just want to know anything I can about them. I’d take POC with just as much glee — they’ve got their own fascinating stories to figure out just as much as whites :-P

  50. lunanoire wrote:

    Abu Sinan,

    How about asking, “Do you speak Arabic?” or “Are you a native Arabic speaker?”

    When I was abroad, I would ask people if they spoke my native language (english) in the language of that country (japanese).

  51. Ismone wrote:

    I am “white” and ethnically ambiguous, mostly due to my dark skin, although it was more noticeable when I was a kid. A couple of my guy friends took to calling me “off-white” which I always thought was funny and pretty apt. (No, they weren’t white, perhaps I would have thought it was less funny then.)

    People will argue with you, which is annoying. But I find discussions of ethnicity fascinating, so whenever people (who are my friends) get into discussions about that, I am fine. And I bring it up too, although only with friends.

    I think the more upsetting thing, when I was a child, was that people would “accuse” me of being adopted or only a half-sibling to my family members. (We’ve got two blonds, a redhead, a green-eyed brown-haired irish looking kid, and one that looks halfway between me and the irish-looking one).

    No one has asked about my race in an interview yet (wow, that must’ve been upsetting!) but if they do I’m ready to bring the smackdown.

    And what Jo said.

  52. Abu Sinan wrote:

    @Lunanoire,

    I do that sometimes “Inti/inta titkalam Arabi”?

    That can be tricky as well. asking that to an Iranian or a Kurd can get a negative response!

    For most Arabs anyways, they like it that a Westerner would speak or even try to speak Arabic so it usually goes over very well, usually with compliments on my accent and questions about how I came up with a “Khaliji” accent as an American.

    Language is a vastly underestimated subject in the venue of ethnic and race relations.

    Respect for someone’s language and to value it enough to try and learn goes a long way.

  53. summer wrote:

    my boyfriend wonders why people of color are so eager to spot the otherness in whites.

    Sometimes it’s a matter of self-hatred in the person of color. I remember a friend discussing the late Lisa “Left-Eye,” and she made a point of saying, “her last name is Lopes, not Lopez. She’s trying to act like she’s Latina, but she’s just black.” She said the “just black” in a way to indicate that Left-Eye was nothing special, as if being of mixed race would make her so.

    I have personally heard that same opinion numerous times, where black people point out the non-whiteness of someone as an attempt to insult them or bring them down.

    I recall someone on a blog even using the term “put him in his place” in reference to the lynching comment that the sportscaster made regarding Tiger connecting Tiger with blackness. So sad and disturbing.

  54. Faithful wrote:

    I’m a mixed girl and I absolutely hate being asked “What are you?” Especially by men, as it’s so often used as a crude pick-up line. Queerhapa said it best. But for all you who think it’s a polite and innocent question - it isn’t. Just as it’s not polite to ask someone of ambiguous gender “what” they are. Just as it’s not polite to ask some of ambiguous sexual orientation “what” they are.

  55. Thea Lim wrote:

    @ summer

    Like Nadra suggests I usually find when POCs ask other POCs where they’re from it can be just an attempt to find common ground. I find this esp with immigrant POCs - amusingly last month when I was in the recovery room after knee surgery and all morphined up, the nurse asked me where I was from, telling me that she was from the Philippines and we had the same last name.

    I like it when other POCs esp Southeast Asians ask me where I am from. Otherwise if it’s the first question out of someone’s mouth it doesn’t make me feel very good. Esp when it’s a scummy pick up line like Faithful reports.

    Obviously it’s a reasonable question to ask when you are getting to know someone, but it’s not a reasonable FIRST question or conversation starter.

    I think whether or not the “where are from/what are you” question affects people differently depending on what generation they are. My friends who are 1st or 1.5 generation don’t mind because they actually are from somewhere else. (I jokingly call myself 1.75 because I was born in Canada to immigrant parents but then we moved back to my dad’s homeland and I grew up mostly there).

    But my friends who are 2nd generation and beyond hate being asked. And why shouldn’t they? They were born here and it’s frustrating, exhausting and hurtful when people assume they weren’t.

  56. Whitney wrote:

    I am one of those white people whom everyone assumes is half black, half Mexican (or from some Latin country) but I always respond with “I’m white” and people get this puzzled look on their face. I have olive skin (which gets very dark during the summer) and medium brown hair. (For the record, I am half British [Scottish, English or Irish, we don’t know], a quarter Swedish and a quarter Czech/German).

    It doesn’t offend me that people often don’t think I’m white (or suggest that I’m half black or half Hispanic), but what does offend me is their question in the first place, and their subsequent reaction, which is always shock. I’ve only met a couple of people who responded with a nod. To avoid the awkwardness, I always joke and say that someone must have had an affair somewhere down the line with a PoC, and therefore, here I am. and it’s even worse when I tell them my two siblings have red hair and are somewhat pale.

    @ Ismone

    Me too. In fact, when I was born, I looked “like a little Mexican baby” and people joked that I should be names Esperanza. Even more so, there is the joke that my mom had an affair with the Hispanic UPS man.

    I feel your pain, with my two siblings with red hair and pale skin!

  57. Joseph wrote:

    @m dot
    When you start a relationship with someone you find out all sorts of things about them–where they grew up, what sort of work they do, whether they are close with their parents etc. In the context of growing intimacy with someone it is reasonable (I think) to want to learn about their ethnic background. It’s an entirely different deal if we work together (or if I work for you) and you demand to know what I “am.” Although, speaking for myself here, if I were dating you and you wanted to know too much about my ethnic background too fast I’d consider it a red flag. I’d wonder why it was such an issue for you and if my answers would change your feelings toward me. Does that make sense?

    @Abu Sinan
    I think “where is your family from?” is a different question than “what are you?”–although it can be the same depending on who is asking and why, so it’s tricky. If we met in person and became friendly I wouldn’t think it was awful for you to ask me but I’d apply the same filter I described with m dot: I’d wonder why you were asking and where you were coming from.

    @Black Canseco
    Italy is a fascinating case study of European racial attitudes. Northern Italians project all of the ugly stereotypes that cling to Black folks in America on to their southern counterparts–and they are all the same “race” in our terms. Sicilians–the most Southern and therefore the most criminal/sexual/lazy/licentious/stupid etc.–are not even considered Italian in Italy itself (although they are in America). There is a slur in Italian to describe Sicilians that basically translates to “Black turned inside out.”

    @Clueless WW
    Getting laid because you are ethnically ambiguous should have its own thread. Oh, the stories…

  58. Elena Perez wrote:

    When my husband (English, Irish, Native American) and I (Cuban, English) got pregnant, we wondered whether we’d get questions about our child. Apparently all the Celtic genes decided to get together, because we had a very unexpected redhead with very pale skin. Now I wonder how to help her understand her ethnic heritage when she looks so unlike the POC parts of her background.

    I have always identified as Latina, despite the fact that many people see me as white, but I don’t know if my little Irish lassie will feel connected to her heritage enough to claim the WOC identity.

  59. jvansteppes wrote:

    I guess the context of where you are also informs how to read encounters like your boyfriend. If you’re isolated you might hope that others might be a little bit like you or have some history in common.
    I grew up in a pretty white Canadian prairie town and friends of color would occasionally guess about ‘racially ambiguous’ strangers’ potential as mixed because they were just excited to meet fellow classmates or coworkers who might have that in common.
    These same friends and I [because most of us are queer] would also always guess about stuff that might indicate a stranger was queer because we were a small community and we hoped that maybe we had that in common with others [the ultimate exciting rarity was of course queer POC]. There’s often a tone of hope in the question.
    Of course when there’s exoticization or a desire to escape being accountable for white privilege this trend is both tactlessly offensive and downright boring. I’d love to see a business card that simply said ‘your racism bores me’.

  60. Matt wrote:

    My girlfriend, who is Korean but apparently looks somewhat Chinese, has Chinese-speakers approach her all the time. (We’re in NYC.) She gets kind of upset that they assume she’s Chinese.

  61. Kaonashi wrote:

    I don’t even answer the question anymore, I either say “american” or I put a blank look on my face and change the subject. If people can’t tell what I am by looking at me, then maybe they don’t need to know. It’s just a rude question to ask, TBH.

  62. Joseph wrote:

    @Elena Perez

    Tell your little girl that how she looks does not automatically equal who she is and she will be fine. She gets to make her own rules, just like you and your husband did: your daughter’s identity isn’t up for a committee vote based on her complexion and hair color. Why wouldn’t she want to be a proud Latina like her mommy?

    Not for nothing she wouldn’t be the first redheaded Cuban girl I ever met. Abu Sinan is right, redheads are sneaky–they show up all over. :)

  63. lemure wrote:

    Well, I’m Caribbean and generally unmistakabley Black and Black identified since I grew up in the US. However because of features I got from my Dravidian maternal side, I’m occasionally mistaken for Ethiopian (by native Ethiopians), Sudanese, and in dark cabs at night, Sri Lankan. Basically, I have a long nose, big eyes, and high forehead, generally oval/angular features.

    Its becomes gross only with American people really, there is a general obsession with ethnicity and fetishization of “what kind of Black are you?” Its like if you aren’t “American” Black, you’re okay. You see it with discussions about Barack Obama’s family tree all the time.

  64. thesciencegirl wrote:

    #25 emfole:

    Dozens of “friendly, informal” inquisitions about one’s race quickly add up to a barrage. You are but one link in an endless, tiresome chain.

  65. Ismone wrote:

    @Whitney–I feel you. I told a whole listserv of people about the varying colors of my sibs once, because some dumbass had said “if people stopped calling themselves ‘african american’ and just called themselves american, racism would stop.” (jaw droppingly stupid, I know). I called bs and said that people are always trying to put you in categories, and that you will be asked if you are outside the norm. After my blowup, a girlfriend told me how she knew a woman with very different looking children, and a woman in a bank once said in an insinuating tone “my, your children look very different from eachother.” The woman replied “that’s cuz I sleep around” and the snooty lady was shocked into silence. The nerve of people.

    Did it piss your mom off that people would joke about her cheating on your dad?

    @Elena Perez–I’m sure she’ll be proud of her culture. One of my mom’s friend’s kid is half-Irish, half-Mexican, all pale and red-haired. She was in a group of fellow students at her conservative christian college, and they started talking about Mexicans in a derogatory way, and she said “I’m Mexican” and they all shut up. She loved and admired her mom, and knew about her heritage, so she wasn’t about to disclaim it. (I’m proud to be 1/8 Irish, and I don’t look it.)

  66. ambre wrote:

    @emfole
    &
    @m dot
    As a mixed person, yes, it bothers me - even coming from friends and *gasp* other mixed people. The “what are you?” question in all its shapes, forms, contexts, intentions etc. has varying degrees of annoying-ness. While in the name of cultural “curiosity/appreciation” it is asked with “good intent” - what if the person in question doesn’t necessarily identify with the answer you want to hear? In my opinion, these “what are you” answers will come out naturally in getting to know someone if it is important/relevant to your relationship. While I’m not necessarily offended every time someone asks a form of “what are you?” I do get that “UGH” gut feeling every time. At the end of the day, I just don’t accept “cultural appreciation” as a sole reason for asking, especially when 100% of people who do ask that question have an “AHA!” moment after they receive an answer that satisfies them. If I want to share this part of my life with you, I’ll do it (preferably) on my terms.

  67. Moderator/1 wrote:

    I believe that the definition of “white” is fluid.
    In America it means one thing, in Australia, quite another.

    It’s interesting to me to note that there are segments of American society, (mostly aged 50+) that do not realize that “ethnic ambiguity” is most definitely “in.”

    I see young white people following the entertainment industry cues as to what traits are physically desirable. It seems to be a little bit of this group, a little bit of that one. The end result, (sometimes with a little help from nature and a LOT from a plastic surgeon’s scalpel) is the new “Not quite white” look.

    It’s also interesting to me that many of the so called “highly desirable physical traits” of late, are ones that have been objectified and heavily criticized on black people since and before slavery.

    Yet, when placed on a white or “other” person, suddenly they are enviable and coveted. How on earth can “Ms. Bootylicious” herself (Beyonce) not have the most desired derriere? According to a recent poll of young people I believe J-Lo or some other non-black person has that unique distinction.

    I think often people will try to make you hate a feature that they secretly covet. Then when you’re not looking they try it on and suddenly it’s sexy!

    Brown skin, full lips, round hips, and a cushy tushie are all physical traits long attributed to many black people. Yet, when is the last time you heard a non-black person admit (publicly) to coveting these features ON a Black person? They wait until someone like Angelina or J-Lo comes along, to openly admit to finding these traits desirable. It appears that only non-black, or ethnically ambiguous whites, with full lips or a curvaceous bottom are deemed “safe” to emulate.

    It’s difficult for the some (not all) White Americans, who have put down and (pretended to) despise certain physical traits on black people for generations, to just turn right around and validate these traits as beautiful and desirable. That would make their envy transparent.

    What continues to mystify me is that so many “other” groups (not black or white) still don’t get it. Light to white skin is still preferable in SO many cultures around the globe. Mean while, at least in America, the tanning business is thriving quite nicely, along with lip collagen and Brazilian Butt lifts.

    Every group seems to want what the other group has. The coveted trait is often taken for granted and sometimes outright scorned, by those who possess it naturally. I wish that everyone could just accept that beauty comes in many forms. One form is not superior to any other, regardless of popular public sentiment.

    *Sigh* Even cultures that appear to be homogenous will find ways to discriminate against smaller so-called “ethnic” groups. Sometimes with disastrous results. (See Germany, Rwanda, Bosnia and now Italy)

    It may be human nature as we know it, but that doesn’t mean we can’t evolve and move beyond this way of thinking.

    Side note: Queerhapa you are SO on point:

  68. locked wrote:

    I think that cases like this further just goes to show that race is a social thing, and when it doesn’t fit our ideas it gets really complicated!

    For instance, I have a hard time looking at Italians (even Italian-Americans) and thinking “white”!

    I had an Italian-American classmate– who I imagine is like probably somewhere around 3rd or 4th generation– and I would look at her and try my hardest to grasp the idea that she was white… she did not look like the other “white” girls in class.

    I even once asked in class, “Are Italians consider white?” Everyone said yes…. but I still secretly hold to my idea that THEY ARE NOT WHITE!!! (lol)

    Who else is a good one?

    Oh KIM KARDASHIAN. Maybe her tan helps contribue to it…. but nah, the girl doesn’t looke “white enough” to me. And my thought was further confirmed when I was watching “TransGeneration” (??), a documentary about transgendered college students. There was a Armenian girl on the show— GIRL WAS NOT WHITE! And Armenia is somewhere along Turkey and Iran so I guess labeling them white in the first place is debatable.

    I mean just look at Kim and her other Kardashian siblings…. and then look at her two half-sisters (both from “white” parents). You’ll defintily see what a mean, because the two half-sisters look “white” [enough for me, lol], but the Kardashian ones? Nope.

    Oh who else?

    Catherine Zeta Jones! Never thought of her as white either.

    And then there is Penelope Cruz. She’s a perfect example of how “whiteness” can be conflicted. She’s from Spain…. She’s European…she’s not really from the places that we think of as “Latino” (Mexico, Central and South America). What is she? Why can’t she be a “white” girl???? Yea, I know Latinos are of “different races”, but her people wer ehte conquerers, not the conquered! Why does her race has to change because of that?

    But our idea of white is the AngloSaxon one soo that’s hte problem.

    Dark Europeans? no way!

    lol

  69. Moderator/1 wrote:

    That is- Moderator/1 from “Stuff Educated Black People Talk About”

    (Shameless plug) We proudly link this wonderful blog on our blog.

  70. linsey wrote:

    Wow. I loved this article and the comments. My mother and I come from families that identify as “white” (even though in reality our best descriptor would be multi-racial - but don’t say that around my grandmother) but Mom had a hard time “passing” for white as a child in Southern Ohio in the 50’s. Even in the 80’s and 90’s I experienced some difficulties. I most recently heard the “what are you” refrain from my husband’s very white family. I am happy to know there are so many of us - people of ambiguous origins unite! I am always looking for the “whiteness” in “minorities” and the “otherness” in “whites.” I justified this as a sociologist as identifying ethnicity and culture and seeking signs of acculturation across racial and class lines. Excuses, excuses…

  71. Lynn Gazis-Sax wrote:

    See, to me Italian, Armenian, etc. all look white because I’m half-Greek, and I grew up in the suburbs of NYC where a lot of the white people are “white ethnic,” and so, people who look like me, or look like my father and his family, and I’ve always been told I’m white, are white. Likewise with, say, Turks or Lebanese.

    On the other hand, I get the impression that people’s mental model of “white” may be fairer if you’re not in New York (where I grew up) or California (where I’ve lived as an adult). There really aren’t enough fair skinned WASPs in either place to make a majority, but I suppose in some other parts of the country there are.

    My Italian-American husband jokes about Italian attitudes toward the northern/southern difference; his family is from the far north, which makes a difference in Italy, but not so much in the US.

  72. perri wrote:

    Cher!

    I don’t know how many other “white” celebrities have openly alluded to their feelings of racial ambiguity, but Cher comes to mind.

    Anyone else remember her song “Half Breed”? When I was a kid, I remember she’d sing this song dressed in a Native American headdress and attire (probably designed by Bob Mackey, I’m sure!). With her long, straight hair, and dark skin, high cheekbones and crooked nose, I thought she really looked like an “Indian” or at least like the ones I’d seen on t.v. or in print. For years I thought she had Native American ancestry!

    I remember reading how she wished that she was fair like her mother and sister. The “half-breed” thing was about not fitting in because she didn’t look like white. If I recall correctly, she got her dark features from her father. I believe he was Armenian. Reading the lyrics to the song now, I’m guessing she probably experienced some of what she sang about.

  73. perri wrote:

    ^That was me, deb, again. “perri” is my alter ego. :D

  74. Ruthi wrote:

    1) Just reading through some of the comments, I find it (ironic?) that having PoC ancestry is considered “interesting” by white people (I’m white, so I can’t really say this without condemning myself too - but it stuck with me). I think this is similar to the sexualization, etc that many people have mentioned. I think maybe this has to do with the whole surface-level “diversity is cool” wave that ignores the fact that by doing so it is just normalizing whiteness more. Or something like that.

    2) Many of the things that come up here, are mentioned in The Black Notebooks by Toi Derricotte, an edited diary-like book about a black woman light enough to pass.

    3) Re, emfole: “Also, I have asked other people who seem to be of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage if they are Jewish and have gotten a defensive response which I interpret as self-hatred…sigh….”

    I think perhaps you are coming to conclusions very quickly to note this as self-hatred. Because Judaism is a strange mix between ethnicity, race, culture, and religion, it may be complicated for people to respond clearly to such a query. For example, someone who is ethnically part-Jewish, but does not associate themselves with the religion may act in a way that can be misinterpreted as defensive, but this does not necessarily mean it is caused by self-hatred.

    I am very white looking (natural blond hair, blue eyes, paler than most everyone I know) - my parents immigrated here from Germany and as far as I know my ancestry is from Germanic areas. Neither of my parents are ethnically Jewish, but my mother converted to Judaism (my father is not religious) and so I was raised Jewish, am involved in my temple, and consider myself to be Jewish. It is a very large part of my identity but not one that people see when they first meet me. I’m extremely defensive when it comes to Judaism because of this contrast. Most people have some tact upon discovering, but I’ve also had more extreme responses - I once had a (Jewish) boy tell me that I couldn’t possibly be Jewish because I was blond. I know, I shouldn’t care what other people think, but it hurts to have others deny what is for me such a huge part of my identity.

    4) Re, Clueless WW - “nazi” in third grade. I started wondering if you went to the same school as me until you revealed your age. Kids all over are alike!

  75. Mickey wrote:

    @Mickey

    Um.

    ::Clears throat::

    That “Incognegro” thing is kind of horseshit.

    Just walking around, living my life, looking the way I look doesn’t mean I am trying to “pass” as anything. If my features seem racially ambiguous what am I supposed to do, wear a sign? For whose benefit? Yours?

    First off, I never accused anyone of “passing”. It’s not as if I approach people asking them “what they are”. I people watch and keep any comments to myself.

    Maybe this hits close to home for you; I don’t know. You don’t have to wear a sign and don’t owe anyone an explanation about your features or your racial makeup, least of all me.

    Disagree with me if you like, but the accusatory tone is unecessary.

  76. Mickey wrote:

    My bottom line is, it is not my job to reassure you about your racial category. I’m just living my life. Which is why the “Ingognegro” thing rubs me the wrong way. It means that–for you–I am activating a practice of racial self hatred just by, you know, having a face

    Again, I know it’s not your job. I never said it was. I’m also not sure how you interpreted that I think people who appear of mixed race are “self-hating”.

    I got a cousin with red hair and freckles with two Black parents. But I guess she’s self hating too.

    This is were the Incognegro started from:

    http://blacksnob.blogspot.com/

  77. NancyP wrote:

    I am adopted. I have very pale skin, blue eyes, brown straight thin hair, and a very long and narrow rectangular face with a biggish nose. If someone said I looked black, I’d be shocked because I would assume they meant West African. On the other hand, I wouldn’t find it implausible if someone guessed English-Italian-Ethiopian/Eritrean. I have always assumed “mostly English ancestors”, on the basis of long narrow face and long skinny nose, plus pale skin.

    I have to restrain myself from being curious about ethnicity of acquaintances and friends who have unusual “foreign” names or who have accents or who I know have immigrant parents or grandparents. Partly this is because I work at an academic medical center, and a lot of people are first or second generation, from a lot of countries. I guess I am amazed by the large number of countries of origin at the typical academic medical center. (I have not been to any country other than Canada, which looks a lot like Ohio in places, but with different brands of beer and donuts. Yes, I am a hick.). I don’t ask if our paths don’t cross often. What I DO ask is how to pronounce their name correctly, if it is unfamiliar to me.

    If I work directly with them on a daily or weekly basis, I do ask about national or regional ancestry of first generation immigrants. (I end up asking my immediate colleagues who are second or more generation about what state their family is from, since that’s the useful bit of small talk). I consider any answer to “where are you from” and “where did you go to college” (if graduate or medical student) useful for small talk.

  78. NancyP wrote:

    I am more interested in my parents’ ancestors than in my own. As an adoptee, I have adopted their ancestors as mine. I am proud to be related to people formerly considered the family scandal, a brother and sister who were socialists in 1920s New York - one edited a magazine called “The Masses”, the other was an unmarried lesbian career woman who helped found the NY Civil Liberties Union, which was the predecessor for the ACLU (Max and Crystal Eastman).

  79. Lena wrote:

    – “That’s when Suri Cruise was born, and there was shock that she looked “so Asian.” To some, the offense in that description wasn’t the insinuation that Tom Cruise didn’t father the baby; simply saying that Suri appeared to be part-Asian amounted to an insult.”

    So true. I’ve heard people say stuff like this a few times and it’s quite rude.

  80. Maggie wrote:

    I’m mainly Irish (a little French, a little Hungarian) and have all European ancestry (as far as I know, anyway). But, do to my round face shape, super dark hair, and the shape of my eyes, I’ve been mistaken for Asian. The first time it happened (really probably just the first time someone mentioned it to me, cause really what percent of people just say, “So, are you Asian or what?”) I’ll admit to being a little taken aback. To be honest, I’ve always wondered where my features came from, especially since my family’s big into keeping family trees and I’ve never seen a non-European name on one. Even though my ancestry’s only been questioned a few times, I wonder how many people have looked at me and wondered.

  81. Lena wrote:

    Also, the part where the author talks about her boyfriend being asked about his race by his students also makes me wonder if non-whites ask this question more. This has been my experience. I’m white and Asian and have gotten the “what are you” question quite a bit. But I’ve noticed that non-whites are more quick to ask this question. I don’t think that it’s necessarily rude. However, I’ve noticed that whites, and to be more particular, college-educated whites are more hesitant to ask about someone’s ethnic heritage.

  82. Van wrote:

    What about Australian aborigines with blond hair……………….The absurdity of racial classification
    http://focusmag.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1086055653/m/5651073771

  83. Mogs wrote:

    I have this one friend who is completely white, but is often mistaken for Latina because of her looks. She decided to study Spanish is high school and college because people were always assuming that she spoke it!

    Oh, if anyone’s interested, here is the link to the NY Times article Nadra mentioned:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/us/12genes.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

  84. AC wrote:

    I often catch myself observing “whites’ closely to see if I can see myself in them. I do so because two of my great uncles on my Mother’s side passed for white and immigrated to the US. I find it secretly amusing that there may be white folk mistakenly believeing themselves to be of purely european ancestry when they are actually mixed.

    Although I don’t get the “what are you” I can sympathize with those who do. The way the question is phrased is dehumanizing - what are you? as if you aren’t human, you are OTHER. It’s also troubling for its privileged assumption that other people, not well known to you, are somehow required to breakdown their ancenstry for you to satisfy your curiousity - its essentially demanding that they entertain you, that they act for your amusement. Again that is dehumanizing.
    Just my thoughts on what has been a really interesting post and thread.

  85. deb wrote:

    Victoria Beckham is another one who doesn’t look quite white.

  86. Joseph wrote:

    @Mickey
    You said you didn’t accuse anyone of “passing” but I don’t know how else to interpret your post:

    “I remember meeting a white guy with kinda coarse aburn hair, full lips and very strong cheekbones. I just knew I had spotted an Incognegro*.

    Just as White as he wanted to be.

    Maybe this goes back to the days of “passing” where we (Black folks) could always spot our own. ”

    …So, if that isn’t an accusation of passing, what is it? My point is: the movie you have going in your head about auburn guy “passing” is about you, not him.

    @ambre (#66)
    Cosign. Well said.

  87. octogalore wrote:

    Great post. It’s interesting to see how many other Jewish folks here are asked “what are you?” I have olive skin and usually am asked about being Hispanic or Italian, and often get a meant-to-be-complimentary “you don’t LOOK Jewish!” Kind of like “you don’t LOOK 40!” So I guess being both Jewish and 40 are considered not-attractive, and in needing of reassurance that one doesn’t look that way.

    Strangely, although I don’t look Asian at all and have green eyes, when I am with my sisters (who are Asian; adopted from Korea) and we are introduced as sisters, people get confused and ask if I am from Korea too. That’s when they don’t get confused and say loudly “how can you all be sisters!” (they look nothing alike, either).

    I’ve always felt complimented by the “what are you?” Makes me feel more mysterious. The one time someone thought I was black, I felt complimented as well. Per the post, I’m not sure if this is exculpatory evidence against racism, though, because the embracing of the “exotic” is problematic in its own way.

  88. Britta wrote:

    As someone who gets asked “what are you?” on almost a daily basis–at job interviews, by the bank teller, the doctor, complete strangers on the bus, and generally every time I am ever introduced to someone, I don’t think it’s just a mixed or POC thing. I don’t get asked because I look racially ambiguous, but because I do not.
    Most people, in America and outside, assume I am not American because apparently, white people who look ethnically homogeneous don’t exist in America. I get asked “where are you from?” almost as often as I get asked “what are you?”, and when I answer, America, I get asked, “where are you really from?”

    The last time I opened up a bank account, I was asked to show my passport. When I inquired if I could us another form of ID (I don’t usually carry my passport on me), I was told, “of course, but it needs to be US issued.” When I tried to donate blood, the woman first told me I was ineligible. When I asked why, she informed me that anyone who had spent time in the UK was ineligible to donate blood. When I told her I had never been to the UK, she looked surprised. Later complimented me for being a “foreigner who wanted to give something to America.”
    Another favorite getting complimented on my English. Now, after people tell me “you speak English so well” I respond, “thanks, it’s only taken me 25 years to master” and see the shocked look on their face.
    I’ve actually had people (on multiple occasions) tell me straight out I was lying, and refuse to believe I was American, “because you just don’t look American.” I laugh when people say that blondes are assumed to be American, because if I had a dollar for everyone who told me “I was too white to be an American,” I’d have about $50. Apparently “real” Americans are supposed to have indistinct, vaguely western European features, skin that can tan a bit but not get too dark, and straight light brown hair that the women bleach to blonde. Anyone who falls too far outside that spectrum (in any direction) has their Americanness questioned.

  89. Joseph wrote:

    @Octogalore
    Like Nadra’s boyfriend (and a lot of the others commenting on this thread) I have been mistaken for the rainbow. But the only time people ever apologize for guessing wrong are the times I have been mistaken for Black or Jewish, as if these were the worst things to be…

  90. Mickey wrote:

    @ Joseph

    That wasn’t the intent of my post, but I also can’t say whether your interpretation was right or wrong either.

    I’m pretty bold, but I also don’t like to go around offending people either. So if I did offend with term Incognegro, I’ll own up to, regardless of what my intent was.

  91. lxy wrote:

    White people discovering that they are “colored” reminds me of Rich people who go slumming to see how the other half lives. At the end of the day, they can return to their comfortable mansions and privileged lives.

    It’s almost a form of White racial tourism–not unlike the imperial tourism that European Americans engage in when then travel to the Developing World and smugly amuse themselves at the behavior of the wogs … er natives.

    What is carefully elided or downplayed is the issue of White power and hegemony in America’s supposed Post-Racial world.

    It must be fun to glibly claim some minoritarian racial heritage yet retain all the power and status of being in the White American majority.

    That’s called occupying both political center and margin.

    If White people were really interested in claiming Blackness, Brownness, or Asianness, they could start by giving up all the unearned and undeserved power they possess as the result of being the “Master Race.”

    That would truly be putting one’s money where one’s mouth is.

  92. Abu Sinan wrote:

    I look about as “white” as they come but I have had people ask me where I am from.

    Usually it is by Arabs when they hear me speaking Arabic. They think I am one of those blond haired blue eyed Palestinians.

    “Inta min Phalasteen?” My Arabic isnt nearly that good……….but thanks for the compliments anyways.

  93. Joseph wrote:

    @Mickey
    I like bold. I appreciate bold. I’m bold too. And I am not trying to bust your chops–I think we just have a different perspective on this, based on our lived experience. I find the whole notion of searching for shared racial characteristics in the faces of strangers extremely creepy. I get that it can be about a longing to connect but…I am not a mirror, I’m a person. And when you–or whoever–reduces me to a single characteristic like the fullness of my lips or the texture of my hair it feels awful, like you are tying to make me disappear.

    @Ixy
    Really? That is what you get from this thread? Racial tourism? What, do you think there is only so much racism to go around and you want to make sure you still get the biggest piece? Wow.

    Well, speaking as someone who–despite having extremely fair skin (like SPF 30 fair) spent his childhood being called “nigger lips” and “nigger hair”–I can assure you: there is more than enough racism for all of us.

    But don’t worry–I’m sure its worse for you, way up there on that cross and all. (Can someone soak a rag in some wine for Ixy?)

    I told you: Bold. Comes with the lips.

  94. angel wrote:

    This is a wonderfully written piece!

  95. Marge Twain wrote:

    For m dot and others who say they mean well and merely want to know/appreciate that part of me:
    To the extent that my race and ethnicity shapes who I am, it will become apparant if we truly have a close rapport. Because I am somewhat shaped by my Indian-ness, you’re likely to hear an identifying anecdote or two as we get to know each other. It should be a red flag for you to check yourself if not knowing “what” I am or “where” I come from is eating you up inside.

    to those who conclude that defensive answers = racist or self hating:
    Wow. First my nose, hair and skin color are dissected separately as evidence for my racial membership, then if my attitude isn’t cheerful or compliant it says something about MY attitude towards the race I was mistakenly thought to belong to?

    Sorry, assholes. It says more about you that you feel entitled to take a population census. Can I see your official clipboard? Is it 2010 already? No, you just wanted fodder for appropriate small talk so you could know to bring up Padma Lakshmi and Bollywood dancing? Oh good. In that case I look forward to lots of quality small talk specifically tailored for me like “How do they make that tandoori chicken red” and “What does it mean when they have a dot on their forehead”

    I wrote here once before that the last time I wore braided pigtails was also the last time a sucession of friendly, well-meaning people called me “Pocahontas” and I was so upset I cut my hair up to my ears. I don’t like to be made to justify my background because it snaps me out of whatever I’m doing and makes me suddenly as conscious of my race as the other person is conscious of my race.

    If I’m not in an extra patient mood, my answer may well be defensive and that’s not because I think it would be wretched to be Arab or Native or Mixed, or Black with a weave. It’s because I’m Malayali Indian and I’m proud of my heritage. I want to own that part of myself.