Is it sexism or racism? Or racialized sexism?
by Guest Contributor Luke Lee
Let’s say you’re a woman of color climbing the ladder in one of the most male-dominated “boy’s clubs” in America. You’re the assistant to the top spot and when at a meeting with others in your business, a man singles you out asking who you are, why you’re there, what you are and then proceeds to make fun of what he perceives to be your race. While that strikes (and rightly so) everyone as racist, Kim Ng makes an important point here in that when this happens, it’s also sexism. Or more so sexism than racism, according to Ng.
Going on five years ago, Ng’s private journey – the work day of an assistant GM is a mostly anonymous one – became a national story. Bill Singer, a former big-league pitcher and at that time a special assistant to New York Mets GM Jim Duquette, stopped Ng during GM meetings in Phoenix. He asked her who she was. He asked her why she was there. He asked her about her heritage. Ng, recognizing the situation as potentially flammable, patiently answered his questions. He then mocked her in gibberish-speak that was supposed to approximate Chinese.
She calls it, “the Bill Singer incident.” She calls it the worst episode of sexism – not racism – she has experienced.
“I think that’s the ironic thing,” Ng says. “People match it up to race, and I think it was more about gender.”
I remember when the story about Ng and Singer first broke the response seemed to be “wow, what a racist guy. He should be fired” (which he was). Second, people were a little shocked to realize that “hey, a woman is in a top spot in a major baseball organization” but the one and two were never connected. That Singer’s comments weren’t just racist but that he was most shocked to see a woman who is a person of color.
(Photo credit: MLB.com via The New York Times)
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
VELMA SABINA!!! wrote:
I agree that it’s more about sexism. In this country there are so many prominent rich South Asians in corporate/business jobs (I’m South Asian).
It’s definitely way more about gender. People don’t blink when they see a dark skinned Indian businessman, but they’ll look twice when they see a FEMALE executive.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 10:48 am ¶
Sulyp wrote:
Well, I am not one to discount Ng’s experience and her perception. But in my honest opinion, when someone uses your ethnic background as a means to put you down, that is racism. I don’t understand why the prevalence of experiencing both at the same time doesn’t register with people.
With most women of color, it is almost by default that we expect to be on the receiving end of sexist behavior at some point. A lot of times, this is also intertwined with racism as another element.
In my work environment, an Asian-American female coworker of mine is routinely called “docile” by my male colleagues. Conversely, those same men say I am the “opposite”. This seems to apply to whatever Asian woman they meet and whichever black women they meet (as they proceed to tear apart her physical appearance behind her back). The one time an Asian woman did not fit into their neat little box, they called her “sheisty” (or conniving bitch).
The fact that certain men feel like they can impose whatever description they want onto a woman without fearing social repercussions… that is what i would call sexism.
The fact that certain men’s descriptions are dependent on the ethnicity of the individual… that would be racism.
I don’t understand why Ng can’t just call it what it is… both.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 11:24 am ¶
Sulyp wrote:
Sorry… as a clarification to my third paragraph above, I am an American of direct African descent (otherwise known as black, LOL). That should have been added in as I described how my coworkers saw me as “opposite”.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 11:26 am ¶
ceecee wrote:
It is most definitely sexism first but there are very strong elements of racism in the mix that cannot be ignored. I witness this every day in the field I work and go to school in. I say sexism first because from my experience (and I’m sure hers as well) even men of color tend to dismiss me at first as well as white males.
It’s a tough world!
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 11:27 am ¶
Slush wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Sulyp.
I do think that sometimes a particular incident is colored more by gender, or more by race, or more by class, or whatever. And in this case, it’s true that an Asian male face probably wouldn’t have given people any pause to question.
But that doesn’t negate the other driving forces. Nor does it somehow mean that making racial attacks on someone is not racism.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 11:34 am ¶
Mickey wrote:
Damn, Gina.
I say she handled it waay better than I ever could.
Since this is sports related….
As we all know down here in the Lone Star state, football is king. Most of the suburbs outside of Dallas have pretty integrated football teams (a mixture of White, Black, Latino).
I remember while racist incidents would happen and the coaches would intervene, the players at least had the perspective of seeing a person of color as a team-mate, not JUST a person of color.
But for Ng that rule doesn’t apply. Not only is she not in her appropriate gender role (not hating sports) but the only perspective there is one of sexual sterotypes (submissive, docile, etc.)
I’m kinda ramblin here, but hey, it’s almost lunch time!
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 11:43 am ¶
Vodalus wrote:
Just for clarification (because I had to look it up), “GM” is short for “General Manager”
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 12:02 pm ¶
Chris Marshburn wrote:
Velma,
While I agree with your comments, I think that it is still necessary to examine the complex role that both race and gender play in regard to privilege and discrimination. I understand that this story was initially discussed in terms of racism and that sexism was completely left out of the conversation, but I do not think that it is beneficial to make inferences that South Asian men in corporate/business jobs do not encounter discrimination. I assume that you did not make the comment to diminish their experience, but I feel that it could be misinterpreted. I think the example also struck a cord with me because I try to be sensitive to the fact America rarely acknowledges racism toward Asians because they are labeled as a “Model Minority Group.” I do understand that there are degrees of discrimination and they should be addressed accordingly; however, I try to avoid discourse that attempts to diminish the struggle of another group to prove a point. Again, I assume that was not your intention. This is simply an unsolicited personal perspective to contextualize any of my future comments. Please hold me accountable!!
Back to the article, I believe that Singer’s comments were probably motivated by his subscription to sexist ideology; however, I think that it is evident that he also harbored racist attitudes toward Ng. I think that in order to have a productive and inclusive conversation about the corollary between race and gender in relation to power dynamics, we must employ a discourse that examines the situation in its entirety.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 12:21 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@ All -
It is most certainly both. Hence why I titled Luke’s piece the way I did. Ng’s gender immediately marked her as a target, someone out of place. I am sure if she had been white, he would have thrown something sexist her way – since she was not white, he chose the next thing he could try to ridicule her for.
This is something I am starting to include in all my discussions of feminism – the idea of racialized sexism. *
Sexism does not manifest the same way for all women – and often time, situations like this are coded specifically as racism, ignoring the sexist aspect, and neatly removing that aspect from discussion. It’s one of those things that contributes to why women of color feel so marginalized.
*If someone, better read in feminist theology than I am, can provide me with someone who has used this term or a similar concept, I would be grateful. I would like to think it’s an LP joint, but we all know ain’t nothing new under the sun…
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 12:33 pm ¶
Alexandra wrote:
I’m to agree with everyone and say it was a case of both sexism and racism. Singer used a racialized attack to put Ng down probably because he thought he could get away with it because she was a woman or thought she was easier to attack. But again it ties back into racialized-sexist stereotype because he perhaps he thought an Asian woman would not respond angrily or all to his mocking.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 12:38 pm ¶
queerhapa wrote:
Latoya,
The idea of racialized sexism, and gendered racism, is the foundation of intersectionality, which was first theorized by Kimberle Crenshaw. I’d have to go back to her article to see if she actually used those precise phrases, however. And I think you are spot-on, what happened to Ng was clearly an example of racialized sexism. Wait, or was it gendered racism? Both?
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 1:14 pm ¶
sylvie wrote:
it sounds like Singer started the sexism off with a bang, and then relied on the good ol’ standby of using “Ching Chong” talk because he couldn’t think of any more ways to insult Ng’s gender.
idiot.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 1:24 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:
Chiming in here to agree with “both racism and sexism.” I like Latoya’s term of “racialized sexism.” The fact that Ms. Ng is both Asian and a woman is going to influence how people choose to see her.
If Ms. Ng were white, I don’t doubt she’d have sexism directed at her, but with a different undertone (”unfeminine,” “castrating you-know-what,” etc.) Were she an Asian male, I don’t doubt she’d get racist slurs, but of a different variety. Were she a black woman there’d be a different variety of racialized sexism. Etc.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 1:33 pm ¶
LizzyGetBusy wrote:
@Latoya
Patricia Hill Collins also used the theory of intersectionality as an exploration of what she termed “Black feminism”. Intersectionality allows people to think of feminism in a more inclusive way, addressing factors other than gender such as class, race, or sexual orientation. Instead of placing gender and race in completely separate categories it forces us to recognize the interplay between the two, and understand that cases Ng’s are not either/or cases- but both. This is part of why I love to come to Racialicious, I feel like the bloggers on this site do an excellent job of writing through an intersectional lens. It is VERY refreshing.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 1:43 pm ¶
Cynthia wrote:
According to the Yahoo article, Ms. Ng is approximately 5′2″. Sizism/petite woman syndrome is coming into play as well. We petites just can’t be taken seriously.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 1:57 pm ¶
Minotaar wrote:
Not to distract from the commentary, but did you HAVE to pick the such an androgenous picture of this woman? I feel like that really detracts from the purpose of the post, because it had me wondering for a long while (trying to read between many lines) if perhaps her androgeny was related the slurs. The picture from the link is much more representative, in my opinion.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 3:46 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
@Minotaar – Ran a Google search for Kim Ng. That’s her official pic from the MLB site. Consistent over three different articles. Went with it.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 3:59 pm ¶
Phrone wrote:
@Latoya: Crenshaw and Collins were both mentioned, and I would add Aida Hurtado to the list. Andrea Smith also writes extensively about WOC, but you might know her already…in addition, JeeYeun Lee’s “Beyond Bean Counting” was an interesting look at intersectionality in general, as was just about everything written by Cathy Cohen. (Both deal with issues of sexuality predominantly, as well.)
It’s times like these when I wish I hadn’t given away my Intro to Women’s Studies course packs –;
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 6:06 pm ¶
Grandpa Dinosaur wrote:
Damn! I’m ALWAYS gettin’ hit with that double card man! And some White Feminist’s I talk to face to face act like it doesn’t matter and isn’t a Feminist problem.
Racialized sexism is what I get hit with whenever I’m around strangers (who are MAJORITY White men), but I do live near a backwards area. *cue banjo riff* Just because of my skin colour some men think they can get it for free or cheap, NU-UH. The only thing I hand out cheap is plastic surgery to ones face.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 9:14 pm ¶
dirkdiggler wrote:
this is the type of overly reflective, navel-gazing discussion that borders on the irritating. someone mocks you and you spend more time thinking, well, was it my gender or my race. was it something i did? could i have handled the situation differently? please stop. the guy was a bigot and an a-hole. he wanted to make sure that he denigrated her as much as he could, and he took whatever he thought he could mock her with. losers like bill singer like want to make you self-conscious about who you are. then he’s succeeded. the battle is to make him conscious of what type of bigot he is.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 11:13 pm ¶
jmai wrote:
Wow I found dirkdiggler’s comments nonconstructive.
I think intersectional discrimination is a huge issue that doesn’t get enough attention. In the UK, the way that anti-discrimination legislation is fashioned you can bring a case to court, for example, on account of either sexism or racism, but not both.
So you have situations where a black woman will have to pick one or the other in a case – scenario: you aren’t promoted, but a white woman has been promoted (current or past) so your claim to sexism isn’t so strong, but if there is also a black male who has been promoted (current or past) your grounds of racism aren’t as strong either — even though you could have been discriminated against not for being black or a woman, but for being a black woman.
Maybe sometimes you can rank discrimination (whether appeared more sexist or more racist; etc) but I doubt all cases are that clear-cut.
Posted 11 Jul 2008 at 7:55 am ¶
dave wrote:
@ dirkdiggler: just stop.
good post … i think its important to look at these sort of issues from multiple perspectives. i think the racialised sexism is probably the correct portal for bigotry in this sense … its not necessarily unusual for men of colour to have prominent roles in professional sporting, so the guy must have came to his derogative behaviour through chauvinism, where he then utilised ethnicity-based insults for their potential to degrade/assert himself…
sometimes picking something apart at the micro level can help for the macro analysis.
Posted 11 Jul 2008 at 10:41 am ¶
Prometheus wrote:
I find that racism and sexism are about as comorbid as anxiety and depression…
Posted 11 Jul 2008 at 11:30 am ¶
waxghost wrote:
I don’t see an increased self-consciousness on Ng’s part and I don’t agree that analysis like this promotes it. I think it’s the exact opposite, in fact: analysis of the motives of people like Singer help the person who was mistreated realize that it ISN’T her fault, that she didn’t need to (and in fact couldn’t have) done anything different.
Posted 11 Jul 2008 at 5:39 pm ¶
sfsinger wrote:
What kills me about this situation is the fine line the person who was attacked has to walk so as not to upset the apple cart for her future career aspects while the a-hole who was fired landed an equally prestigious post even after his bigotry was exposed. He’s still protected while she has to hope for the benevolence of those that condone such behavior to one day let her in. I think if more sports fans and bloggers had a coordinated effort we could speed up that process.
Posted 12 Jul 2008 at 10:56 pm ¶
sfsinger wrote:
insert [a fine line] in my post…
Posted 12 Jul 2008 at 10:57 pm ¶
Mogs wrote:
i agree with dirkdiggler.
just thought i’d say that since a couple of other people have expressed strong disagreement with him.
as jmai said it may at times be necessary to prioritize racism vs sexism for legal purposes… but in everyday life, is it truly needful to decide which one is worse? bigotry is bigotry… and someone who wants to insult you is not going to be very choosy about what tools they use to do so.
Posted 12 Jul 2008 at 11:11 pm ¶
Hilda Kinyunyu wrote:
Hmmm.. I think this was more to do with race rather than sex.
Get it all the time – oh you learnt english so fast, why is your accent more british (err… I’m African we were colonized by the British in East Africa)… what is your education background, because surely a black african woman cannot be sitting in an office.
- on the flip side I’m glad Ng saw it as sexist and not racist .. for me that would be easier to handle – something to do with there being black, white, asian women as opposed to black african.
Posted 06 Jan 2009 at 11:05 pm ¶