If You Want to Change Society, Close Your Legs
by Guest Contributor M. Dot, originally published at Model Minority
Yes. David Banner said it.
Talk about colored girls, homicide and patriarchy.
You would think that Capitalism, the fall of the stock market and the price of rice were controlled by who we had sex with.
What if a white man sat on that stage and said that?
R.I.O.T.
David goes on to say that “Most of these men sell dope because they want to impress you”. So wait, if we stop having sex with D-boys then they are going to get jobs at Mc Donalds?
I think we need more labor and gender theory.
It Ain’t My Fault
What’s incredible to me about this video is two things.
David Banner’s and to a certain extent Kweli’s response is indicative of an unwillingness to acknowledge the ways in which the things that are in our music affects our kids.
Why is that so hard?
We don’t want the rappers to have any personal responsibility because we don’t want to hold ourselves accountable. The minute we hold them accountable we have to hold ourselves accountable.
Its like this, if your momma is telling you not to smoke and drink, but she smoking and drinking, you ain’t gonna listen to her.
If we start talking about the rappers and their music and the effect it has on the kids, then we have to start looking ourselves, the fact that we buy and listen to the music and the message that this sends to the kids.
We don’t criticize the rappers because then we would either have to stop listening to it, or think about why we get enjoyment off of listening to “It Ain’t No Fun, If the Homies Can’t Have None”.
Do you know how hard it was to write that listening to Mobb Deep was nurturing the dysfunction in me?
Type difficult.
But knowing what I know about crack, Oakland, and crack in Oakland, it would only make sense that there would be a part of me that would find tales of murder and crack entertaining.
We try and turn the dysfunctional ‘ish entertaining as a way to cope. And many times it works. But we are conflicted over it. Think of the art, music and theater associated with The Holocaust. However, there is conflict within the Jewish community over whether art about something so terrible can serve as a basis for art, be it comedy, drama or a musical.
Listening to Mobb Deep reminds me that I am not living in the 1989 war on drugs zone. It’s a reminder that I survived.
However the words have an impact, perhaps an unintended impact but an impact just the same.
For example, at the Spinna party last Saturday, I was singing along with Snoop and I turned to Filthy and said, “If my dad repeatedly telling me over the years that I could do anything had an impact on my self esteem, what impact does listening to and singing “Ain’t No Fun” have on esteems of both men and women?”
You Wouldn’t Get Far
Hip-hop, in many ways traffics, in Black sexuality and the availability of Black female bodies as tools for sex.
No one wants to admit it, talk about it or analyze it.
What would these rappers think if their daughters were vixens, and their sons murdering and hustling?
In a culture where Karrine Steffans is a slut, but being a pimp is revered, where R. Kelly marries Aaliyah, is a known longtime pedophile in Chicago and is acquitted of child porn charges, there are some serious issues with how we view Black female bodies.
Its much easier to call Video Vixens tramps rather than analyze patriarchy.
Hip Hop’s Identity Crisis
While watching this video, I also thought of Hip Hop’s conflict within itself.
On one hand folks say that Hip Hop is “just music.” On the other hand folks say “that hip hop is revolutionary and political”.
What is it gon’ be? Just music or revolutionary?
As far as I am concerned, most of it is just another form of employment.
In fact Birkhold wrote recently about how Hip Hop isn’t the child of The Civil Rights Movement but is in fact the child of Black youth unemployment. He writes,
I’m tired of people calling hip hop the child of the civil rights and black power movements. Everyone from hip hop artists, hip hop activists, hip hop scholars, and regular everyday listeners have called it that and all of them are wrong. I believe this error is made for two fundamental reasons, as a nation we don’t understand the civil rights or black power movements nor do we understand labor in a capitalist society.
If we did, we would understand that hip hop is the child of unemployment.
Parents Raise Kids Rappers Don’t
Not only do we fail to understand how Hip Hop isn’t “revolutionary” but we also fail to understand how rappers sound like neocon Republicans when they say “Parents need to raise they kids”.
Yesterday, I began do wonder, do these Negroes sit around reading The Moynihan Report?*
In fact, I know d-boys that take more responsibility for contributing to the down fall of the hood many of these rappers do.
Why is it so difficult to care about children other than our own?
We know better. Pre-crack we certainly weren’t raised like that. Ms. Johnson down the street would tell your momma if she saw you doing something out of pocket. I have written about it here before. This extra parental intervention stopped during the crack era because while Ms. Johnson would say something to Hakeem, now that it was ‘89, he had a 9(mm) and she wanted to keep her life.
We Just Need More Money and Programs
If the solution is economic then our people should be in better shape. Black people have more money than ever before, and their children are STILL underemployed and in prison in record numbers.
If the solution is economic, how many people you know have cake and are still decomposing on the inside?
An after school program and a fund raiser is not going to change this.
After school programs and fund raisers are a part of the problem.
We can’t party our way to social justice, reduced unemployment, reduced drop out rates or lower AIDS rates.
Many people who work these jobs like their work, but are scared of the hood.
Non profit jobs serve as a stepping stone for folks. Its like an urban boot camp.
If you can survive with the darkies you can work anywhere.
They are far more interested in keeping their jobs than changing society so that the children who are in these programs can have lives full of options, dignity, humanity and power.
There are a lot of mortgages being paid off of managing Black and/or White poverty.
I am not dissing afterschool programs. Afterschool and summer school was my salvation when three and four hundred cats were getting murdered a year in Oakland 89-92. What I am saying is that it is important to keep an after school program in perspective and to understand the extent to which some folks care more about getting a grant, than deciding their mission. This method of thinking enables them to put their personal mission ahead of the needs of the people they are serving.
Black children know that there is a war on drugs.
They know it because they are in the middle of it. They know that we won’t, can’t protect them, so they protect themselves. They also know that we care more about our music than we do standing up for them.
Every time an emcee says “Parent’s raise kids” not rappers, the kids are reminded of this.
We don’t also don’t understand labor and power, and until we do we will be on stages saying sh-t like “If You Want to Change Society, Close your Legs”.
*Note from LDP: Full Moynihan report here.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of 
soreal678 wrote:
i am glad you guys caught this on TV too. That whole series “Hip Hop v. America (I and II)” is probably the only thought provoking program I have ever seen on BET. It came on at like 1am last week and I thought to myself “well, I guess BET only appeals to non-idiots well after dark.”
Anyways, did you guys catch all three parts of the series? It was basically a screaming match between some less classy folk and some of the more educated folk. I came away with just feeling that more discussion was needed on the issues of black females in the hip hop game and how BET actually needs to own up to degrading all of us.
How much more intellectually stimulating would it be if BET were to basically scrap all of its awful programming (especially those super long uncut porno-like music videos and “hell date”) and instead replace it with compelling movies starring black actors, news shows dealing with our issues, and programs which educate youth intermixed with sound religious programming and politically or socially conscious rap and hip hop music??
Is that too much to ask for?? Nah…it’s probably just more profitable to appeal to the uneducated folk.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 8:15 am ¶
StuffBlackPeopleLike wrote:
It’s a sad day where Hip Hop has landed… We have to be willing to call a spade a spade; some of this stuff is just killing our young people “literally.”
I know the title of this post is “Close Your Legs;” however some rappers need to close their legs and many times all of us need to close our ears… if people keep listening to it, they will keep making it.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 8:19 am ¶
DiosaNegra1967 wrote:
Hmm…good article.
But ya gotta be careful now, lest you sound too “Cosby-like” to some ears…..I should know, as I’ve been tagged previously for sounding this way…..
*sarcasm*
“…“Most of these men sell dope because they want to impress you”….
Erm….what?
Just color me NOT impressed…..
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 8:45 am ¶
JJH13 wrote:
If you want society to change, close your mouth (DB) and listen to the voices of women who cannot be involved in the male centered Hip Hop scene without being Ms. New Booty. Actually, where are those voices? Where is the space for women to tell their experience without being reduced to body parts?
I admire his passion for his craft, but DB’s looking (willfully?) at this issue of women’s from his point of view and his point of view only, with a sprinkle of self-aggrandizement (I did this, I did that…) along the way.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 8:53 am ¶
msday wrote:
“Hip-hop, in many ways traffics, in Black sexuality and the availability of Black female bodies as tools for sex.
No one wants to admit it, talk about it or analyze it.”
I’ll admit it and talk about it. If one were to really analyze the images of black women portrayed in those video’s, one would see an underlying hatred of black women. I believe it stems from slavery and the matriarchal family structure created as a result. Black women were forced to hold the family reigns while black men were psychologically rendered emasculated and rendered powerless by white men. So even today, our families are dominated by women with the occasional token “patriarch” of the family. To me, it seems as if in the black man’s quest to garner respect in society, when he hit road blocks with white men. He turned his anger and resentment towards the black woman. Throughout our history, black women have gone from being the backbone of the family and mothers to being b——and h—-. Economically, black women have always had an easier time earning an income by virtue of being less intimidating. Thus, a black man could never render a black woman powerless by placing her in a position of financial submission. Thus, abuse, and character degradation took place. Black women were always stripped of the dignity of being beyond sexual abuse by not only white men but also black men. Resulting in a disrespect and distrust of black women that starts in early child hood. A young girl is not free to report molestation or abuse because many times, she is demonized as asking for it or being hot in the —–. Then of course, by the time, she is a teenager, the hyper-sexualized , negative gold digger images are thrown at her. Rappers with no political power and very little relative financial power have resorted to attacking black women for their frustrations. So now, they have mentally reduced the holy matriarchs to the aggressive welfare queens. The person who takes the blame for the destruction of African American life in America. In the meantime, black men have moved on to worship the woman who has always been in the ivory tower.
Black men need to wake up and stop blaming black women for their lack of footing in society. Black women also need to stop enabling black men in their disrespect by rejecting these images presented in hip hop. They should also be more supportive of the females within the community as opposed to allowing the divide and conquer game between the light and the darker skinned. Stop supporting the images in movies presented by black men who feel the need to put on a dress and de-feminize our character in front of the world. Encourage education and stop settling for these half-wit men who want to sit around and complain as opposed to taking action.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 9:20 am ¶
sasha wrote:
Well I think this essay speaks to a few issues. Number one, I think David Banner is correct in a sense when he says that women should keep their legs closed. I believe if more girls from poor communities were taught to respect themselves and their bodies, rates of teen pregnancy, stds, and generational cycles of poverty would decrease.
Number two, it is the parent’s responsibility to keep certain music, movies, etc away from their children if they feel it is inappropriate. I don’t believe in trying to force rappers, filmmakers, etc. to only create certain types of music or movies. Yes I know that the images of black people and women in entertainment is often stereotypical and indicative of how societies them but I can’t change that; what i can do is not expose my children to those images so they will not then pass down those views.
Number three, you are right, after school programs are not the solution to teen pregnancy, stds, generational cycles of poverty, low academic test scores etc. If a child is not being raised properly and all the other children in the neighborhood are in the same boat, nothing is going to change that until you get the parent’s to change or someone else steps in.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 9:40 am ¶
Ron wrote:
I would advise black women to leave black men alone. Black women should reject black men and seek non-black men or no men at all. Maybe, we black men will wake up if we know that our abuse of black women will not get us anywhere.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 9:41 am ¶
kar-leone wrote:
I think Hip Hop has some problems, and I think certain images in hip hop are symptomatic of it and other issues in society. But I think people go overboard when they analyze hip hop by itself and its affect on kids.
1 .The major problems in the black community especially the murder rate, crack epidemic, school dropout rates, illiteracy etc. started and were at their worst in the 70’s and mid 80’s. BEFORE Gangsta rap and so-called “sexist” hip hip genres appeared.
2. The vast majority of people that listen to hip hop are suburban whitle males. Music might affect them differently for a number of reasons, but no one (reasonable) talks assumes that problems that those groups face STDS, drugs, sex etc are the fault of hip hip. Remember the old rock videos from the 80s? They had just as many girls befoer hip hop/rap videos, yet no one says they’re responsible for A B C D , etc problems.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 9:51 am ¶
Glossolalia Black wrote:
What bothers me most about the “close your legs” bit of advice: penises don’t require closed legs. “Keep it in your pants” is only marginally better, if not for the specificity of how it’s all those nasty vaginas faults that babies just keep falling out of them with unloved and unraised kids.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 10:04 am ¶
Glossolalia Black wrote:
Or, rather, unraised an unloved kids keep falling out of those aforementioned problematic black women’s vaginas. (That’ll show me for neglecting to edit before posting!)
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 10:05 am ¶
cosmicsistren wrote:
I saw when this originally appeared on BET. I thought that maybe the programming was getting better. Do you know what was aired right after this thought provoking discussion? Baby Boy. BET is garbage and so is David Banner. I can’t buy into what rappers have to say about issues facing blacks folks when they seldom take accountability for their own actions. I always hear that Talib Kweli, Mos Def, and Common are such positive rappers. Well, all three use the n-word, Mos Def allegedly beats his wife and is a serial baby maker. I don’t look to rappers to help solve issues facing black people. Not when they rap about “coconut juice and lollipops”.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 10:21 am ¶
Ron wrote:
DB seems to think that the Lysistrata effect can help alleviate patricarchy as noted below:
Lysistrata touches upon the poignancy of young women left with no eligible young men to marry because of deaths in the wars:
“Nay, but it isn’t the same with a man/Grey though he be when he comes from the battlefield/still if he wishes to marry he can/Brief is the spring and the flower of our womanhood/once let slip, and it comes not again/Sit as we may with our spells and our auguries/never a husband shall marry us then.”
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 10:37 am ¶
crogirl wrote:
@kar-leone: I agree; I think hip-hop in and of itself is not the problem. It’s a reflection of the problems in society, and by putting it out like a mirror it’s exacerbating the problem. And anyone who knows hip-hop knows the entire genre isn’t just booty-shakin money drugs and hoes that you see on TV and radio. Has anyone gotten BET, MTV and ClearChannel and the other radio conglomerates together to talk about why they only show and play this garbage? Why they only promote certain artists and n0t others? There is so much good, positive, thought-provoking music out there that no one ever hears. Someone needs to see that it’ll sell just the same… just try it. But anyway… I do agree with David Banner’s point about the “closing legs”, but it’s not the only issue. And like Lola said, where are the men who are worth something? But you know, these problems won’t be fixed with finger-pointing, and you should do this and you should do that. I think the basis of all of this is at home. Children aren’t being raised properly anymore. There’s no pride and respect being taught. No schoolteacher can teach that; it’s learned by example. Not because mom said so, but because mom and dad DO so.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 10:39 am ¶
crogirl wrote:
@cosmicsistren: OMG, I just heard that Coconut Juice song for the first time the other day. I lowered my head in disgust, and mourned for the state of hip-hop. I blame record execs and clearchannel for allowing this garbage to flourish. If no one gave these talentless losers record deals or played their records on the radio, it’d be a better state of affairs, for sure.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 10:43 am ¶
Mickey wrote:
M.Dot is breakin it down!
But what I love is only Black video vixens are tramps. The Asian girls are “exotic” and the Latina’s are “caliente”, but Black women are considered plain old trashy for being in these videos.
I personally can’t follow the video vixen path, but for those who choose to should follow the Jenna Jameson model.
Say what you want about her, but she gets a large cut of everything she is in; naming rights, line of toys, etc.
If you are going to exploit yourself, at least do it on your terms.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 10:47 am ¶
Mickey wrote:
@ crogirl
Is this the song I heard the other day talkin about “make her juice box twirl”?
I need to go find some pearls and clutch them!
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 10:51 am ¶
Vodalus wrote:
It seems to me, as a suburban white kid, that another problem with rap music is that it conflates black youth culture with violence. It teaches non-black listeners that black youth who listen to hip-hop and dress like rappers are likely to be violent. Recognizing that this is largely a false assumption and rooting out the biases stemming from that conflation has been hard work for me. It’s also work that I don’t think I could have accomplished when I was growing up in the suburbs.
I wish that rappers would stand up and admit that they are delivering prepacked stereotypes straight to the suburbs. Not only are they teaching black youth to disrespect themselves but rap teaches non-blacks youths to fear and disdain young blacks.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 10:53 am ¶
Cara wrote:
Thanks for the post M.Dot
I caught the program this past weekend as well. And all I have to say is….Ok, now what?….What was this all for? They did a lot of talking and I didn’t hear many solutions. Like you said, no one was there to own up to the fact that the music does affect society and how Blacks are viewed and how we view ourselves. Black music has been the only exposure many non-blacks in the U.S. have had to Black lives period.
Banner sounded a little bitter to me. But all of his comments weren’t nonsense….there was a hurt there that wasn’t addressed. Is it really up to a 19-20 yr old artest to carry the entire weight of the community on his (not her in this case) sholders? You don’t become conscious of racialized media ‘isms’ by osmosis. A kid just wants to write a hit that sells. They may not be thinking deeper than that, and if they are then their “conscious” music wont get picked up by a label b/c it wont sell in the “cool pose - gangster - pimp/ho - jezebel - macho swagger” saturated rap market. Stereotypes sell - it’s the American way.
I was frustrated with the program, mainly b/c BET seems to be about 10-12 years late with it’s objection to the images that have saturated the hip hop genre (and other forms of black entertainment). Back in 92-94, things were headed in a bad direction. Gangster rap gave way to the pimp/ho fad, which has now given way to the “baby HIP-POP” invasion we see today with Souljah Boy and others. These kids don’t even know (let alone remember) how diversified rap used to be. And a side note: Did Foxy Brown and Lil Kim kill the female MC? Who knows?….and Where is Missey Elliott?
I think there must be room for all types of rap music. I long for the days when rap represented a spectrum of ideas and lifestyles. Hip Hop is NOT dead! But it just seems like the mainstreamis having an extended “one night stand” with Hip Hop Culture. And the “morning after” is approaching.
*…..And so is the continuous cycle of black music in the U.S……As The Shirelles sing in the background - Will he still love me tomorrow?*
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 10:57 am ¶
Monie wrote:
“Black children know that there is a war on drugs.”
“They know it because they are in the middle of it.”
Not all Black children live in the ghetto. There fore not ALL Black children know there is a war on drugs or what that is.
Generalizing is something that Black people hate when others do it; so we should be very careful not to do it.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 11:06 am ¶
cat m. wrote:
I hated DB every time he kept saying that a rappers job is to just sell records. It made me sick, because I couldn’t believe that he was going to ignore problems that are maintained by his music to make money.
btw: the moderator is wicked beautiful.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 11:13 am ¶
gatamala wrote:
believe if more girls from poor communities were taught to respect themselves and their bodies, rates of teen pregnancy, stds, and generational cycles of poverty would decrease.
really?? So it is poor black girls’ fault?
http://whataboutourdaughters.blogspot.com/2008/07/22-yo-black-woman-to-11-year-old-black.html
msday, by and large I agree w/ you. But I’m concerned about some of your assertions.
I believe it stems from slavery and the matriarchal family structure created as a result.
Moynihan!
So even today, our families are dominated by women with the occasional token “patriarch” of the family.
Slavery does not make you abandon your children. Slavery has become a fallback excuse for a lot of mistreatment of women and children.
Economically, black women have always had an easier time earning an income by virtue of being less intimidating.
hmmmm. I have heard this thrown around a lot, usually in the context of corporate america. Considering that we earn less than everybody for the same work, I just don’t see it. Bear in mind that many black women in the past did “women’s work” in the domestic arena.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 11:52 am ¶
gatamala wrote:
don’t forget Levell is the idiot who along with Dyson threw black women under the bus in front of Congress (and America).
what’s really sad about this is that Levell is college “educated”
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 11:55 am ¶
sasha wrote:
gatamala,
no i was not saying that it is young black girls fault for anyting. it is the lack of parenting and teaching of self-respect.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 12:04 pm ¶
Ali wrote:
A big cos(θ) to both Vodalus and Monie.
I am one of those middle-class black kids who grew up in a nearly all white suburb and it was painful as HELL to sit in class listening to white kids rap along to this crap, purposely emphasizing the word n*gger or ho because they know you’re within ear shot. I have so little respect for most of these rappers it’s not even funny. These selfish, materialistic fucks have proclaimed themselves the unofficial ambassadors of black America and I couldn’t disagree more. They think they’re spreading news about how fucked up the ghetto is to mainstream America when what they’re really doing is giving suburban white kids an excuse to say the word n*gger in the presence of anyone they choose because “it’s in the song, I didn’t write the song.” But that’s not really a fair assessment. I guess I should also mention some of the other accomplishments of (c)rappers: killing their communities, disrespecting their own mothers,daughters and sisters, providing very poor examples for the young men who look up to them as public figures, propagating racism by entertaining racists, disrespecting/ demeaning good hip-hop, and cooning for the man. Did I leave anything out? Way to go David Banner (or should I call you Levell Crump), you are truly a model citizen, you bastard. Southern University should strip you of your degree until you agree to do a better job of publicly representing them.
@gatamala - I LOVE your comment as well. WAOD is one of my knew favorite blogs. Thanks for sharing that link.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 12:17 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
The blame isn’t all on the parents y’all. Some parents do their best and the kid still falls prey to outside forces.
I have a post I need to finish called “Twenty Minutes of Music Videos” talking about the messages I absorbed waiting for my nails to dry one day. I started to buy what they were selling, even though I have a strong sense of feminist theory, good home training, and critique pop culture on the daily.
If those messages hit me, what are they doing to the kids who watch, or are exposed to them? What about when they go to a friends house? My mom didn’t try to teach me to shake it - those were my friends. And as much as my mom policed who I was hanging out with, there were still many, many times I slipped from her watch and got exposed to a bunch of other things.
Just like dealing with racism is not solely an individual problem and not solely a societal problem, correcting the messages in hip-hop falls on a LOT of shoulders.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 12:19 pm ¶
Alexandra wrote:
Great Post.
I especially agree with part of we don’t want to hold rappers accountable because dont’ want to hold ourselves accountable. I mostly listen to R&B and dance but occasionally I’ll listen to songs like Smack That and Get Low and I have liked them. Then I question why like them when I know they degrading to women and consuming this music is hypocritical. David Banners comments really annoyed me because I sick and tired of hearing the close your legs argument. It reminded me when Essence ran a piece from a reformed pimp in which he said the same thing. David Banner also undermined his comments by hitting on the female panelist after she agreed with his comment. How are you going to tell women to close their legs in one breath and say I’m gonna get another open hers in another. All she did was agree with him, he didn’t have to say that.
The men act this way because women want thugs and dope dealers argument annoyed me too is he serious with that.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 12:23 pm ¶
Antonio wrote:
“Not all Black children live in the ghetto. There fore not ALL Black children know there is a war on drugs or what that is. ”
Very true. 40% of black people live in rural areas. I grew up in the sticks and was blatantly oblivious about drug problems in my area until I was a teenager.
It was frustrating to me at the time to see other black teens who were once well-mannered adapt gangsta mentalities in an area with relatively little crime.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 12:24 pm ¶
Kjen wrote:
The “close your legs” argument always disturbs me because of how it continues to disempower men. It encourages men to distance themselves from the only people they have control over, themselves, and blame women for the s**t they do.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 1:01 pm ¶
Nicole wrote:
Close your legs is DB message to black women. Are black women any more or less sexually active than any other woman of color? I don’t think so. The hyper-sexual image of women in videos sells records. Rappers surround themselves with video vixens like they are king of some sort of harem. They could careless about the image of women in their videos. These women are not their family or friends, and so, it’s okay to be nihilistic about it. It’s okay to make black and white statements about a black woman’s lack of sexual control, which leads black men to pursue the stereotypical roles of the drug dealer and pimp. DB sucks!
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 2:07 pm ¶
Arturo wrote:
Anybody else think it was weird that you had an all-male panel discussing the ‘pathology’ of female leaders?
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 2:24 pm ¶
Aquarianbrass wrote:
Why do young men choose to become pimps and drug dealers?
You don’t think there is a relationship between the accruement of money/power and access to women?
Who do you think gets laid more, the millionaire coke pimp driving a lexus or the guy washing his car?
Social theory will inform you that men will take extreme risks to acquire power and wealth just to increase their attractiveness to women.
This phenomenon has been noted since time immemorial.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 2:56 pm ¶
Aquarianbrass wrote:
And the idea that our “pathologies” have roots in slavery are bokum. The lives of slaves was varied and complex. On plantations where slaves were given some autonomy when it came to completing work, masters knew the value of keeping the family unit in tact. Many of the patriachial kinshp systems with roots in Africa survived the middle passage and continue into today.
Much of the change in the structure of the average black family is the result of socio-cultural and economic changes of the past 3o years.
Read the Moynihan report and tell me he wasn’t partly right. Why were black people increasing being signed up on welfare rolls right at the time when legislation and the economy was opening jobs for poor blacks?
And DB is only half right. Young men need to as a previous poster stated, “keep it in the pants” as well.
And please, don’t be afraid to consider certain ideas just because it may make you seem like an ideological opponent.
Not blaming the so-called “victim” in a way removes all their power to change their circumstances and gives it all to the system.
Hell, the whole ” blame the victim” vs. “blame the system” discourse is BS.
The interaction btwn individual and the BIG OTHER(Social-culture system) is complex.
One becomes an individual by being inducted into some culture, so all our personal decisions are in part predicated on our indoctrination into a certain value and belief system is that is itself partly rooted in socio-economic relations. So when a girl in “hood” gets pregnant and girl in the “suburbs” does not there is host of cutlural factors interacting with personal agency. The spectres of our ancestors, parents and upbringing haunt every decision we make.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 3:52 pm ¶
devil's advocate wrote:
i feel like shaking things up today.
1. black people don’t own hip hop.
2. we are living in a system that rewards exploitation.
3. everybody has a niche in that system which they have learned to fit into to survive
I think DB said it best when he said that his first responsibility is to deliver a product to his market that they want to consume. Hip hop is a business, like any other, which makes no direct profit from good works. If snoop started rapping about college-level economics, or if 50 made a song about good self-esteem, nobody would buy it. Why? Everyone is a hypocrite. Especially parents. And the kids like the music partially because it is “bad”.
Kids don’t all get together to sip wheatgrass shots with extra fiber while studying for their math exams on rooftops blasting Puffy’s new joint: “Work is Fun” from his new album “Let’s all be nice to eachother.”
People are beasts who are made docile by having their needs readily met by a network made possible by advanced tools. Without this network, we would not even be having this discussion on morality.
Instead of talking about how we can make the community better, why don’t we just continue to find new ways to exploit each other’s needs more profitably? I mean, that’s what drug dealing, prostitution, and war-profiteering are all about. And hip-hop too. And academia.
Call it cynical if you want, but as I look at the empires of today and yesterday, morality (and religion) serves only to control laborers, allowing the managers to do as they please. What if the black community stopped trying to heal itself and just succumbed to that desire to exploit? After all, isn’t that what brought this nation’s founders their great power today?
For a long time, I was on the side of “breaking things down” to explain why they are unhealthy and problematic in the interest of educating the ignorant. Today, I realize that it is important to do that, but instead to exploit instead of educate. We have come this far by reverse-engineering the power structures that have oppressed us. Now it is time to use that power and make new structures not based on “shoulds” but based on what is.
Power does what it wants. We want power so we can do what we want for a change. Clearly, all this talk about “reforming” hip-hop is fruitless, because the market (us) dictates the product. We are the market, and none of us are righteous (we are all hypocrites).
What is poisonous is profitable, what is profitable proliferates. To resist these market forces is impossible, but understandable for those who believe they can make people work for something other than pleasure and survival. Theoretical-land is good and all, but it is only for those who can afford it, and have had the education to speak about it. I think there was a time when rhetoric was productive. I think that time is over.
I guess I am posing this question:
Is our desire to be “righteous” hurting our pursuit of power? What would happen if we harnessed these “shouldn’ts” instead of trying to repress them?
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 4:16 pm ¶
Phil Deeze wrote:
The video vixen/hip-hop expose show re-ran last night on VH-1, I believe, and Karrine Steffans was center stage.
I think the entire industry was put on blast for being misogynistic (the rappers and roadies/posse members) AND materialistic/fame hungry (the video models.)
And, sadly the component that wasn’t mentioned was the consumer. Someone is out there watching the booty-shaking and grinding. Someone is out there buying the CD’s and going to the concerts. People of all races. But black folks are responsible for the images out there because most of the images that are out there for black folks are harmful images.
My son is three, and when we are in the car, it’s talk radio only. No hip-hop. No R&B. Maybe if there’s some Motown on, I’ll let him listen. And I’m not even 40 yet, and I feel, as a father, I have a responsibility not to bombard him with some of the music out here. My wife thinks I’m nuts, but this music isn’t like the music I grew up with. “Gat this” and “Ho that?”
And just to show you how powerful music is, my son caught a bit of “Dreamgirls” on HBO the other night, and a few days later I was singing “Steppin’ To the Bad Side” to myself while fixing dinner and my son was right next to me singing the back-up vocals “Ooh-Ooh-Oooooh!” I sang the next line and he came right in, on key with the next set of “Ooohs.” I thought he wasn’t paying attention when the movie came on, but I guess he was.
I’m all for having a good time y’all, but ish is getting out of hand.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 4:44 pm ¶
waxghost wrote:
No, Arturo, you’re not the only one.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 6:00 pm ¶
Roxie wrote:
Arturo, I thought it was odd too.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 7:26 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:
I do agree with “if more girls from poor communities were taught to respect themselves and their bodies, rates of teen pregnancy, stds, and generational cycles of poverty would decrease.” HOWEVER, self-respect comes from a sense of agency, and if you don’t show the girls attractive and reasonably achievable alternatives, they will get that sense of agency by showing that they can bear and raise children. If a decent education, a decent job, and a marriage-worthy man don’t seem like realistic possibilities in the experience of a poor girl, it isn’t too surprising that she will go for early child-raising, to feel a sense of purpose. (Baby NEEDS me - that realization that has struck first-time mothers since the dawn of time).
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 7:41 pm ¶
Ed wrote:
In my opinion, this Hip-Hop versus America is a weak response to Dr. Rev. Coates strong activism against anti-Black programming. It won’t work and I support Dr. Rev. Coates efforts 1000%. Just my little two-bit input on that topic.
I don’t fault the rappers or the video vixens. What I fault if an environment that does not promote positive Blacks and the void of positive brings more attention to the negative. This is what we are experiencing.
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 8:17 pm ¶
Slush wrote:
I know no one is trying to argue that there wasn’t a truckload of sexism there, but whew, a discussion of gender and power and music in the black community and only 2 women out of 12 speakers, who each got to make approximately one comment? While David Banner gets away with telling the notably female populated audience and his co-speaker to close their legs? Damn.
Still, that video was fascinating to me, I guess mostly because it was a totally new forum that I haven’t had access to listen to before. And I’m glad they aired it, even at 1 am or whatever. It was a lot of tricky questions they covered that don’t just get answered in 15 minutes by a bunch of artists - especially ones who see themselves as capitalists first, role models second.
And then, the men all agreed that putting black women in positions of power in the market made no difference because they act just like the patriarchy. Okay, so might as well not bother.
…I’m dying to know other folks’ thoughts about that.
My three cents is that 1) there’s of course a lot of truth in it, because there are all kinds of social power structures acting on people, and 2) did they ask any women if women think it makes a difference, and 3) is it possible that they don’t see any differences made by black women because it’s the whiteness of the patriarchy that they as men deal with the most, not the maleness of it?
Posted 03 Jul 2008 at 8:30 pm ¶
Kendra wrote:
Ok, did someone else find Lyfe’s “not explain the negative thing” comment a bit strange? I mean, if it comes up, I think it’s better to address it in a way that’s appropriate given the fact that it’s already been seen and by a person who is very impressionable. I mean, you can’t get rid of the image, and the child is going to be curious and may seek answers from a source outside of the guardian’s purview. It’s safer for you to deal with it and also to make sure that similar things are within your control, especially if you don’t want your child to see it. I mean, understanding does not come out of a vacuum; someone has to be there to explain things in a way that is appropriate.
There’s such a lacking of accountability on the part of the artist and the consumer in hip hop, it seems. It’s ridiculous. But it’s difficult when you’re listening to some of the music. Sometimes I just have to separate myself from things that I know will damage me mentally, especially if upon first glance I did not like it. You can become easily desensitized to the message in a song with repeated listening. The first time you might think, “oh, I hate this song.” The second you might think, “this sure is annoying.” The third you might think, “I don’t even care.” More and more it just becomes easier to hear it because of repetition. You may not even register to the message, but it can affect your subconscious mind.
I know this from personal experience. Of course, I know that this might not apply to everyone, but I’ve experienced this sort of thing to some effect. I absolutely abhor Webbie’s “Independent.” But with repeated listening, even for my research project, it just became easier for me to hear it, for whatever reason, even though I know that the message speaks towards male benefit, the destruction of feasible male-female–in a heterosexual field–relationships, the trivialization of so-called independent women, and the unfair balance in professional employment that is present.
Also, I noticed how the two women on the panel just disappeared in the latter half of the video. I mean, they were nearly invisible to begin with, but that’s just strange. The men on the panel really seemed to dodge the degradation of women in hip hop culture in a way that suits themselves. They just don’t want to be responsible at all. They also aren’t that much for depth or even finding solutions to the problem. Deep down, I wonder if a fear of loss of empowerment is what keeps them from really being agents or even true allies of African-American women. I mean, in gangsta rap, keeping down black women is necessary in order to empower the man in the male-centric narratives. So is lessening a man and nearly stripping him of his masculinity. The terms tend to remain sexist , misandrist (in some cases), and misogynistic, and no one really raises a complaint at how that sort of offense can effectively kill two birds with one stone.
Posted 04 Jul 2008 at 12:21 am ¶
Anya wrote:
I the audience response really nauseating — the applause, the smiles as the camera panned over. What did they do, vet the audience members first like it’s a Republican ‘town hall’ meeting?
Posted 04 Jul 2008 at 10:38 am ¶
Anya wrote:
Sorry, that should be “I found the audience response really nauseating”…
Posted 04 Jul 2008 at 10:39 am ¶
MrMoe wrote:
I think David Banner didn’t really break down his “close your legs” comment the way I think he meant it. Most D-boys start slangin in their teenage years. It’s a fact that the major issue on the minds of most teenage boys is “How do I get these girls to like me?” They look around the neighborhood and see the older brothas involved in criminal activity have different women every week. A lot of the time these boys don’t have a father around and these brothas are the only male role models they have. They learn that standing on a corner passing out these little plastic bags gets you enough money to buy the cars/clothes/respect in the neighborhood that attracts the young ladies. And in the words of Tony Montana…”First you get the money, then you get the power, then you get the woman.”
Some of this glorifying of the “gangsta” lifestyle could be prevented if we, as black people, changed what’s “cool.” Instead of glorifying entertainers, athletes, thugs, and the “hood” we should glorify scientists, engineers, and other people who actually make a difference in the world. We’ve gotta make it “cool” to be smart. A kid can only get called “nerd” or “geek” so many times before he tries to change in order to fit in.
Posted 04 Jul 2008 at 1:09 pm ¶
m.dot wrote:
Thank you all for your comments.
Community is invaluable.
In trying to respond to many of your comments, I decided to write post instead, as it was becoming an uber long comment.
http://www.modelminority.blogspot.com/
Your feedback is appreciated.
Posted 04 Jul 2008 at 4:26 pm ¶
Moya Bailey wrote:
thanks for this analysis and conversation!!!
Posted 05 Jul 2008 at 9:50 am ¶
lex wrote:
preach sis.
Posted 05 Jul 2008 at 10:59 am ¶
A. wrote:
I personally feel that when rappers have to attack the women, they are only attacking themselves. You cannot alienate a race of women without having to answer for it.
Trying to pander to a white supremacist establishment by use of stepping on ones own race of women will lead to rappers’ own demise in the end.
They can call black women bitches and hoes and all other things and tell us to keep our legs closed, but they still have to come to us because they either need the respect and to fall in the good graces of a powerful black woman for their own gains - because their cute little shucking and jiving skit has failed to impress the white CEO and his little daughter.
Posted 05 Jul 2008 at 6:59 pm ¶
dimples13 wrote:
This is my first post on this site. Alot of thought provoking viewpoints to absorb. The comment from PhilDeeves really resonated with me. I noted very few comments regarding what we put into our kid’s ears. These days even the R&B ’slow jams’ are so overtly and ‘in your face’ sexual, I find myself turning down the radio or turning it off completely because it makes me so uncomfortable. Not to mention Rap. The lyrics are just becoming more and more vulgar. I am aware that once a kid reaches adolesence it is much more difficult to keep certain music at bay. But right now, there’s no way I will allow that kind of vulgarity into my 7yr old son’s ears. And the sad part is, I’m just under 40, and I remember what hip-hop was & how much I loved it. Now though,it’s just a different ballgame. We do have a choice-hiphop is not the only option in terms of what kind of music our kids are exposed to.
Posted 05 Jul 2008 at 10:04 pm ¶
LeAnne wrote:
I shook my head at this foolishness so bad that I nearly broke my neck. Delishees basically invalidated her own argument and all of the ladies on the panel. M.K. Davis is awesome but she kind of ran the show. I’m very confused at to which university David Banner graduated from and what their credentials are, because clearly… he needs to return the degree. His ran circles around the subject of his own wrongdoing in the deliberate attempts to destroy the image of black women and refused to address the main topic at hand: “Do black men hate black women and if they didn’t, then why are they allowing the free world to believe so?”
I throw “free world” out there because that seemed to be the consistent rebuttal in these folks arguments: you’re entitled to watch and think what you want.
Funny thing is for years I’ve had to listen to black men gripe about how harshly the media has portrayed them and how these negative imagery can deeply impact their psyche. If it is a “free” world and we as the viewers should be responsible for what our kids watch, the black women should behave themselves when they get on a video set… then what does that say to black men? You, too, are responsible for your own negative image and cannot blame NY Times, Essence, or Ebony.
hairsmystory.com
Posted 06 Jul 2008 at 8:36 am ¶
Ron wrote:
DB does not represent black men. I think major media outlets have created this false gender war between black women and men. Furthermore, the opportunists out their take advantage of this media bias to promote their own agendas.
The most revoutionary thing black people can do in the U.S. is to have strong families. I have been more influenced by Asata Shakur than Malcolm X.
She said it best that a strong black family is the key to our success. However, we must understand that many people out their consider strong black families a threat to their privilege.
Black men do not hate black women. Snoop Dog, Ice Cube, Dr. Dre and all these so-called women haters representative of black fatherhood. Most of these rappers are married and family men who take care of their children.
The men who usually verbally support black women are the ones who do not act on that support.
Do not be fooled by people who tell what you are comfortable hearing. They do not have black people’s interest at heart.
Pay attention to what men do not what they say.
We as individuals have the power to impact how the world views black women.
If we all do our jobs, black women will have a positive image.
For example, people who are easy to get along with will usually be viewed positively. People who have humility will be viewed positively People who put their family first will be viewed positively. Spending more time with our children will make us the most important influence in their lives. This is all common sense.
These are traits that are universal.
Money is not a factor in spending time with your children even if you work 16 hours a day. A strong family will find a way and adjust to maintain what is important.
There should be no excuses when it comes to raisng children and spending quality time with them. We all make choices about our lives.
We must live with those choices and cannot blame rappers who should never be able to have more influence over our children than we do.
Posted 06 Jul 2008 at 1:01 pm ¶
freedom wrote:
i think it’s all a bunch of nonsense and over-powering words that are neither here nor there. parents hold the key to teaching their children the right things to do and say. rappers have a responsibility to control what comes from their mouths, not because someone considers them a role model, but because they should be responsible human beings. if you expect rappers to be role models for your children, then you need to re-think your ideals. if rappers are who you choose as heroes for your children, then they are doomed. so many times we place celebrities on such high pedestals, but they just happen to be regular people with a lot more money and fame. they fall just like we do.
we over-think the things that have to be done. it’s not rocket science - it’s just plain and simple logic. peace.
Posted 06 Jul 2008 at 1:45 pm ¶
Fatemeh wrote:
Great post. I especially liked the points about hip-hop trafficking the availability of Black women’s and girls’ bodies.
Posted 06 Jul 2008 at 10:21 pm ¶
DiosaNegra1967 wrote:
this series was replayed over the july 4th weekend….i managed to watch….and lemme tell ya….i was feeling quite stabby afterward!
none of the “artists” had a valid reason for the rampant sexism and misogyny in their “product” or the community in general…..it’s as if they were saying, “well….this is what we were taught…..we don’t know any better….”
there were some really powerful women on that panel who (i feel) didn’t get the opportunity to contribute…..but, i have mad love for the profesora from Princeton who insisted on her voice being heard!
….when the topic of “the black church” came up….i was expecting fireworks….and was greeted with a fizzle instead. we don’t want to touch the “pastor” or “deacon” who’s got some trifin’ ways…..now do we?
but, as i expected….nothing really came of it….as long as Black women and girl’s bodies are looked upon as commodities to be traded upon….the system will continue and money will be made. period.
BET continues to blow smoke up everyone’s @$$ by offering “summits” like these….when they really don’t give a damn….as long as they reap the benefit$
Posted 07 Jul 2008 at 8:59 am ¶
DiosaNegra1967 wrote:
ron said: “Snoop Dog, Ice Cube, Dr. Dre and all these so-called women haters representative of black fatherhood. Most of these rappers are married and family men who take care of their children.”
are we talking about the same snoop dogg who walks around with women on leashes periodically at hollywood events?
mmmmmkay….just wondering….
Posted 07 Jul 2008 at 9:04 am ¶
lunanoire wrote:
While I agree, that strong families are one of the highest form of revolution, I cannot afford to wait and hope to find a fellow Af-Am who agrees b/c of the # disparity.
Is a # disparity societally destructive either way?
- low % of females= kidnapping, mail-order brides, some single men who are frustrated and angry and taking out their anger on others physically and otherwise, etc.
-low % of males= less incentive for men to settle down/fewer intact families, incentive to abandon condoms to keep/share a man, fewer older men to keep young men in check, etc.
Posted 07 Jul 2008 at 10:58 am ¶
Lakergrrl wrote:
DiosaNegra1967, I was thinking that exact thing about Snoop
Posted 07 Jul 2008 at 12:56 pm ¶
OhbieThrice wrote:
@devil’s advocate: youre right i hate to say it but youre right theres no point in trying to rationalize this out when the market forces are so overpowering but i dont think that our need to be good is hurting our power. but at the same time power does what it wants even if that is messed up, people are messed up and we cant fix them or ourselves so why not profit i understand that
Posted 07 Jul 2008 at 1:50 pm ¶
Slush wrote:
We are the market. We do have power over what we consume, and more, to control what we show off to others that we have consumed.
I don’t mean to say that the consumer market has ultimate power over all these issues (clearly not, it’s so much more complex than that, and I too get pretty pissed at some hip hop artists for the messages and images they create and want them to be held accountable), but part of resolving the conflicts of racism and hip hop and role models and values can’t be to throw up our hands and say “okay whatever, it’s beyond us.” It’s clearly not, and the invisible importance of aggregated market/consumer choices is not insignificant at all. It’s just hard for the individual participant activist to see. Like a prisoner’s dilemma.
Posted 07 Jul 2008 at 3:58 pm ¶
Redirected20 wrote:
“not because someone considers them a role model”
Yeah but its like the panel was saying, the media elevate these guys and black athletes up like they’re Gods among mortals or something. So its like forcing young kids to accept them, even kids whose parents teach them its just entertainment, they will eventually cave in because they’ll see some other kids worshiping it. Nobody forces you like at gun point, but it almost might as well be.
I liked this Hip Hop panel a lot better than the first one, it had a lot more intelligent people with intelligent discussion, and was free of T.I thank god. I can’t stand his fake smiling like a con artist every five seconds.
Posted 08 Jul 2008 at 4:28 pm ¶
Padraigin wrote:
Eurgh.
Vaginas aren’t universal remotes. Pussy is powerful, but goddamn, it’s not that powerful.
A man needs to have his own conscience, not just a proxy between someone else’s legs.
It’s patriarchal bullshit to make women’s sexuality morally responsible for men’s behavior.
Men are morally responsible for men’s behavior. And you know who else is? Their mothers, and their fathers. If you raise your son to be a disrespectful shit, then you, the father or mother of that shit, are the original asshole.
Doesn’t matter what kind of pussy he thinks he wants afterward, he’s your little shit.
Posted 24 Jul 2008 at 10:18 pm ¶