Quoted: Jeff Yang on Interracial Dating

I remember when, the week before I left for college, my parents sat me down to tell me about the facts of life. The lecture wasn’t about sex — my father, a physician, was prone to oversharing the grosser aspects of human anatomy, so I was horrifyingly aware of the mechanical aspects of reproduction as early as elementary school. No, the wisdom they sought to impart related to the Theory of Dating Relativity. Which is to say: The more similar your partner is to you without actually being a blood relative, the better.

Children of close family friends? Perfect. If that’s not possible, try someone whose parents are from the same hometown. Taiwanese is better than mainlander or Hong Konger, Chinese of any type is better than other Asians, but if you must stray outside of Greater China, focus on East Asia before Southeast or South Asia … and so on and so on, in an ever-expanding series of concentric circles.

My parents weren’t being racist (or at least not maliciously so): Their beliefs were shaped by the reality in which they were brought up, and the culture to which they’d immigrated. They’d seen the challenges faced by people in mixed relationships, and they wanted my sister and me to have an easier life. Things weren’t easy for mixed couples in the 1970s, particularly among immigrant groups, where social networks were critical yet fragile, and most community support systems were contingent on “insider” versus “outsider” status.

But have things changed? With last week marking the anniversary of Loving v. Virginia, the landmark June 12, 1967 Supreme Court decision that upheld the right for men and women of different races to marry, it seemed like an appropriate time to explore that question.

Statistics support the notion that interracial relationships are on the rise in the Asian American community: Mixed couples represented over a quarter of all marriages among Asian Americans in 1980, and over a third of Asian American marriages in 2006. And interracial couples with Asian partners are increasingly depicted in movies, TV and other popular entertainment, to the point where their racial differences are often not even germane to their characters’ storylines.

What many commentators have pointed out, of course, is that both the numbers and popular culture reflect a reality in which only half the Asian American community — the female half — are players. Call it the doubletake test: Seeing an Asian American woman with a non-Asian man is no longer noteworthy, but an Asian American man with a non-Asian woman still turns heads. That gender gap is reflected in interracial marriage statistics as well: According to the U.S. Census’ 2006 update, 19.5 percent of Asian American women outmarry, compared with 7.2 percent of Asian American men. And that, to some, speaks volumes about the sexual desirability and social status of Asian men in America.

As blogger Dialectic wrote on the popular Asian American online forum TheFighting44s (where four out of the top five most popular posts relate to interracial relationships): “If heterosexual white male patriarchy and what it did in the world were not so powerful, I think it would be fair to say that Asian American women and men would be ‘out-dating’ or ‘out-marrying’ at similar rates, and that we wouldn’t elevate whites, denigrate ourselves, or worry about whether we’re sexually and personally worthy of others to nearly the same extent that we do now.”

—From Jeff Yang’s Asian Pop Column, dated June 18, 2008

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Comments

summer wrote:

My Indian-American friend explained a similar dating hierarchy to me back in college. Having fallen in love with a Mexican student, she was on the verge of being outcast. “But he’s on his way to med school, and his dad’s a neurosurgeon,” I protested.

That’s when she broke it down. Something like:
Same Caste
Certain other castes
White
lower castes
Asian
…and that’s it. (Black and Mexican were non-options.)

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 9:48 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

Jeff Yang is AWESOME. His article is comprehensive, balanced, thoughtful, persuasive. I especially like the part where he detours to focus on fetishization of Asian men and quickly dispels the common myth that “the grass is greener on the other side”.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 9:55 am ¶
DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

I’ve never really understood why there’s soooooooo many Asian American women paired up with white guys, but not too many Asian American MALES with white (or black) females. or for that matter, black women with white guys.

So, it’s like this, most interracial relationships that are very common:

-Asian American females with white guys
-Black males with white females

Why?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:01 am ¶
DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

@ summer:

I’m South Asian, and I am ashamed to say that many, many East Indians are VERY racist and would rather encourage interracial dating with white people but not with Blacks, Latinos or East Asians.

Blame it on the caste system and the notoriously racist British Victorian way of thinking.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:12 am ¶
Chris wrote:

@Deaf Feminist Punk: Possibly because of existing stereotypes of the two different races of men:

Asian men = hypomasculine
Black men = hypermasculine

It could also be the images perceived of Asian, White, and Black women: Asian women are typically viewed as subservient, and White women seen as more submissive than Black women.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:14 am ¶
Bang Gully wrote:

Doesn’t this overwhelming dilemma in the Asian-American populace in regards to interracial dating and sexual desiriblity kind of go against the “equality assumptions” of some of the moderators and commentators on here and in college campuses where anti-racist activism takes place?

Dating in America as we know it is “the jungle.” It’s a free for all. It is competitive in nature.

Women know whether they will sleep with you within five seconds of seeing you. To the people who might say “Well Bang Gully, dating is not all about sex. What a caveman you are.” To most men, sex is the big underlier for dating, and increasingly for women it is also becoming like that.

You can talk about “white male patriarchy” but let me point this out: in recent statistics, it was shown that a third of South Asian-American females getting married, marry white males. It was also shown that a third of South Asian males marry white females. If it was white male patriarchy, then how do dark skinned Indian dudes with funny names get white girls?

I actually don’t think it’s fair and it is pretty much openly racist that Asian males get rejected or not even considered most of the time. But I think the fact that people talk about “equality” as if it’s some inherent thing is so cynical and so insulting to what is reality. The reality is that Asian males don’t get play from the vast majority of females and it has to do with I think that the Asian features are not considered attractive on men, but are seen as “exotic” and “feminine” on women.

Not being Asian myself, but South Asian, I ask a question to Asian-Americans here: where are the parents in all this? Even though people date outside in South Asian circle, parents still provide a barrier many times preventing marriage. You can look at that as a negative or a positive, but don’t Asian parents do this?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:29 am ¶
Sean wrote:

It always irks me somewhat when people say that they are “left out” when it comes to interracial dating. Short of someone binding, gagging, and leaving you in a car trunk -you are not “left out” of anything.

Ask the people who complain about being excluded how many people THEY’VE personally asked out. I’m sure more often than not, they likely sat around waiting for someone to ask THEM for a date.

In my experience, adjectives like “timid” and “demure” were decidedly NOT attractive qualities to women. It was only when I became more confident (not agressive) that I noticed a more positive response -regardless of the woman’s race.

So as to why more IR relationships are more common than others -any percieved social constrictures notwithstanding- is probably because these folks uh….. maybe ASKED each other out?

As to Mr Yang’s assertion that Asian women with a non-Asian man no longer gets (unwanted) attention… as a black man with a Japanese gf….. We need to move to wherever it is HE lives.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:31 am ¶
William wrote:

The difference is uncanny as to who marries outside his/her race more, Asian American women or men, but I think the premise of the argument may be flawed.

What constitutes marrying outside of one’s race? If you’re Chinese American, is marrying a Pakistani American considered marrying outside of your race?
Also, with who do Asian Americans primarily marry outside of their race?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:35 am ¶
Bang Gully wrote:

Sean –

If you’re considered un-attractive by women generally, the chances of you getting that women by being “confident”will actually hinder your chances. Confident + unattractive = obnoxious to a lot of females.

Put it like this: in a corporate setting, when a white man is confident or proactive, hes a “natural leader.” When a minority does it, he’s generally seen as a “beliggerent” and “hard to get along with.”

When black, Spanish, and white dudes are confident, they’re “cute.” When Asian dudes are confident, they’re “obnoxious.”

The reality of becoming more successful with females ,if that is your goal, is precisely to not make it your goal. The more you put them on a pedestal, the more you let their whims and fancies ,which are but leaves floating in the wind, control your balance in life.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:50 am ¶
visionaria wrote:

The situation he describes is similar to what I experienced with my family, and we’re Dominican. Unfortunately for them (it seems), I ended up with a black guy. This caused a great deal of drama, but they’re now finally starting to realize that my being with him isn’t enough reason to completely disown me.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:54 am ¶
Cara wrote:

@ william
I don’t think his aregument is flawed. He backs up his argument (and conclusions he’s reached) with stats from the U.S. Census. Sooooo the numbers tell the story. And he (along with myself and others) are noticing. So maybe you have a more specific issue with the “definition” of Race or (mono-racial identities). I get that…..to answer your last question, “with who do Asian American’s primarily mary…..” – you can find that aswer in the U.S. Census and SEVERAL other studies.

As for all of us dateless (and mate-less) Blk women and Asian men…..get online. There are a lot of dating sites and groups out there who openly encourage and promote unions b/t these two demsographics specifically.

I think it is up to Asian Males and others to chose to explore other possiblities in their marrying choices. In the end you will instill your culture and heritage into your children and whether you choose to marry someone who is from the same heritage OR who shares a mutual respect for your culture and heritage (without being of the same race) is up to you. Either way, we shouldn’t be afraid of exploring these possibilities.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 11:10 am ¶
John wrote:

I’m really starting to get sick and tired of people who can’t see the opposite side of the coin and employ a “well, if you just pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, you wouldn’t be in this situation” attitude much like Sean just did.

I mean, I have *no* idea why blacks would get angry when ignorant white Americans employ the same attitude when it comes to pulling themselves out of poverty.

Bang put it pretty well that the situation isn’t as easy to get around as one might think it is.

Asian America really does need to address this issue. Judging by the comments generated by this topic, it’s obviously a sore point in the community. Saying that it’s not worth talking about is like covering up a fire with a paperbag and shame on Asian American men *and* women for not discussing this.

One major factor that smart Asian American women will admit is that the huge amount of interracial dating and marriage in their demographic helps perpetuate the asexual Asian male stereotype.

It’s common sense, they just don’t want to admit that they pose the greatest threat to Asian men being taken seriously and as a human being.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 11:32 am ¶
Sean wrote:

@John

And I’m really starting to get sick and tired of people with limited reading comprehension skills.

I said “I” meaning me, myself and “I” had to ask MYSELF some tough questions and adjust accordingly. I didn’t assign the problem to being “left out”. If I was left out, it was because I was leaving MYSELF out of the dating pool. So wherever you missed my point and assumed I “can’t see things from the other side” I suggest you read CAREFULLY before you type next time.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 11:48 am ¶
Sean wrote:

@ Bang Gully

I can understand what you mean -as that’s always a fine line to tread, and you won’t always know where the line is until you try a few times. I’m ertainly no Greek Adonis by any stretch, and I certainly got more than my share of bruises too.

Secondly, “attractive” is a highly subjective word, as what’s attractive to some people may not be attractive to others. But it’s true: a “come-hither” from a Brad Pitt/Denzel/Keanu type may be seen as flattering, where as the same “come hither” from a person who looks different from those guys may be offensive. Again, it’s a fine line……

I’m definetely not belittling the disparity, nor the fact that different races are in IR relationships in different numbers, I’m just questioning the concept of being “left out” when it comes to something decidedly personal as mating and dating.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 12:03 pm ¶
Me wrote:

I’m a little disturbed that example of an Asian hottie is Keanu Reaves. Sean, you couldn’t find a hot 100% Asian example? Thats telling in and of itself. Asian guys, I feel for you. You don’t stand a chance.

-Black Girl

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 12:14 pm ¶
different Ali wrote:

slightly off topic, but can anyone tell me how the stereotype of the nerdy, socially awkward asian/asian-american man came to be (or at least point me to a resource).
I really am curious, mostly because until college, the only time I saw an asian guy who even remotely fit that stereotype was on TV. (I realize that goes for most stereotypes but I don’t think I’ve ever heard anything about the basis/origin for this particular stereotype)

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 12:17 pm ¶
Lola wrote:

“And that, to some, speaks volumes about the sexual desirability and social status of Asian men in America.”

It doesn’t mean a thing. Asian men are just as desirable as any other race and I’ve heard too many girls of different admit it, but they’re not vocal enough about it, scared to step out the box when the attraction is there because they fear rejection, because of what other ppl might think or say, because of some of their own prejudice, especially with the way the media portray asian men. All you need to do is have MTV show korean popstar Rain 24/7 for six month instead of Justin Timberlake and you’ll soon see how chicks will come out of woodwork and OPENLY show interest in asian guys all of a sudden. The media plays its role too.

Just like many men of all races love black women (I mean, Halle Berry, Beyonce, Janet and Iman are considered sex symbols worldwide) but a lot of men fear rejection. I’ve heard that too many times.
But since the release of “Something New”, more non-blacks approach black women, which proves again the impact of the media on people.

Back to the fear of rejection. Most ppl think that asian men and black women are against dating out. Most of the time it’s more because they don’t “think” other races care for them (negative perception of self), not because they’re not interested.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 12:17 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:

“Pulling yourself up” doesn’t address systematic inequality, I agree.

But Asian America DOES address this topic… and it tends to address it in the wrong ways, ad nauseam, unproductively. That’s why Jeff Yang’s more holistic take is so refreshing.

And I’m so tired of some Asian-American men saying Asian-American women are “a liability” or “a threat”. You’re talking about your mothers and your daughters and your sisters there. You’re saying “screw you, I’m going home”, but you can’t go home… we’re all racially classed the same and disowning each other like that is just silly and childish. What you’re doing is just the other side of the coin of the Asian-American woman who says white men are better than Asian-American men. It all goes back to self-hatred, which is the dynamic we have to overcome.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 12:18 pm ¶
Tina H wrote:

Interesting discussion. My sitch dates from 35 years ago or so, when my white aunt married a Chinese guy. I was nearly 10 years old before I realized that every little kid didn’t have Chinese cousins.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 12:38 pm ¶
Sean wrote:

@Me

LOL!!!

Well as an admittedly nerdy, socially awkward, heterosexual guy, I did the best I could. Maybe it was all CVK’s Keanu blogs that did it.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 12:41 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:

There’s got to be more to the different proportions of Asian men vs. women dating or marrying “out” than: 1) Teh Wimminz, They Are Picky and Shallow! or 2) Teh Wimminz, They Are Sellouts!

Women (heterosexual) actually place far *less* emphasis on a man’s looks than men (heterosexual) do on women’s. So I’m really not sure that the “image of Asian men as unattractive” really will wash. Women date and marry “unattractive” men all the time.

I’m not saying that Asian men need to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps or whatever, just that the implication that if men were allowed to set the terms of the dating and marriage arenas we’d all have a wonderful interracial Disneyland, is hogwash. Women aren’t interracial gatekeepers.

I’m wondering if part of the reason for the disparity is the status of sons and the patrilineal family found in some Asian cultures. If young men are expected to be good and loyal sons even after marriage, prioritizing their mothers ahead of their wives, then that might create some heavy cultural obstacles with marrying a woman from a culture where a man is supposed to “cleave unto his wife.” A lot of Italian women are shunning marriage because Italian men can be “mama’s boys.”

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 12:43 pm ¶
Sean wrote:

@ Lola

Lola, this observation you made-

“…scared to step out the box when the attraction is there because they fear rejection, because of what other ppl might think or say, because of some of their own prejudice…”

-sums up EXACTLY what I getting at when I was questioning this idea of “someone leaving someone else out of IR dating”. You hit the nail on the head. Though I am in an IR relationship myself, at no time do I recall prohibiting anyone from doing anything. That’s all I was questioning.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 12:53 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

Sigh…

What a festival of clichés. There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to the downward spiral of bemoaning the dating status of the Asian-American male in white patriarchal societies.

@Sean
You essentially blame AA men as a group for not doing enough “asking out.” How tired, predictable, and boring this argument has become. I’m not even going to try to explain why blaming an entire race of men for a singular stereotypical personality flaw is completely missing the point.

Other clichés soon to follow (or already stated):
“Why can’t we all be colorblind? You people are racist for picking on me and my ASIAN GIRLFRIEND all the time. I don’t even see race.”

“I’m a non-Asian woman who LOVES Asian men, so I don’t even see what the problem is!” (Luckily, our very own Carmen Van Kerckhove questions this cliché in the full article.)

“I’m an Asian guy and I get all kinds of play. You other suckers must be too short or nervous around women. Stop being so Asian and you can be like me!”

“It’s not us enlightened Westerners who are in the wrong. Asian parents are too racist to let us date their children!” (Yang himself advocates this cliché.)

“Asian men are all nice guys who put women on a pedestal. They need to stand up for themselves.”

“Asian men are too patriarchal and expect women to submit to them. They need to stop being so traditional.”

“Asian men need to stop being so effeminate, intellectual, xenophobic, weak-willed, and afraid to ask women out. THEN we’d stop being so prejudiced against them.” (Comedy gold.)

“Asian men need to be more open to dating outside their race. They’re only restricting themselves by ascribing to backwards notions of ethnic and cultural purity. I am an amateur eugenicist and decree that Asian men and black women should hook up to ’solve’ the interracial dating disparity.”

And finally…

“I determine my self-esteem by my success in sex and dating, and so should everyone else!”

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 12:54 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

Gee, can we really not talk about racial bias without showing some pretty nasty women-hating?

Thanks, BangGully, for trashing my ENTIRE GENDER. There’s nothing more attractive.

>The reality of becoming more successful with females ,if that is your goal, is precisely to not make it your goal.

Here’s a clue – we’re PEOPLE, who happen to be female. Unless you are a Ferengi, please to be NOT calling us “FEMALES,” as if we are a foreign species.

>The more you put them on a pedestal, the more you let their whims and fancies ,which are but leaves floating in the wind, control your balance in life.

OMG! Women will control your LIFE! We are whimsical and fanciful! (and we bleed once a month and go CRAZEEE, and if we get to much education, our uteruses will atrophy, and any problem involving FEMALES means that our uteri are overacting – and we’re acting “hysterical.” And other bulshit from the 19th century – you know, the idea that women were fanciful and whimsical was one rationale for denying us the right to VOTE in the US.)

Gah. Gonna go find some brain-bleach now.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 1:00 pm ¶
Erin wrote:

@ BangGully:
Wow…you must be a recent graduate from the “men are from mars, women are from venus” academy. with statements like “The more you put them on a pedestal, the more you let their whims and fancies ,which are but leaves floating in the wind, control your balance in life.”, you sound like you need to check your sexism. seriously.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 1:09 pm ¶
Ron wrote:

I do not know where you guys are from but my Asian homeboys never had trouble finding women of any race.

I went to junior high school and high school where asian dudes were sought after more than any other ethnic group.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 1:17 pm ¶
queerhapa wrote:

Lyonside, you forgot this gem of Bang Gully’s: “Women know whether they will sleep with you within five seconds of seeing you.” Apparently we of the female species (!) are either totally superficial, or else possess some awesome olfactory glands that enable us to assess the sexual desirability of potential suitors. WITHIN FIVE SECONDS!!

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 1:18 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

Yes, I didn’t call that one out (though it added to the personal anger, for sure).

But I’m done trying to apply logic to a man-troll who wanders over here and hates women. There is no logic here. I sense an attempt to thread-derail.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 1:30 pm ¶
Sean wrote:

@ Elton
“You essentially blame AA men as a group for not doing enough “asking out.” How tired, predictable, and boring this argument has become. I’m not even going to try to explain why blaming an entire race of men for a singular stereotypical personality flaw is completely missing the point.”

Make my sigh a double, please…

[Deep breath]

Well, if there’s one thing this thread has taught me is that if the races are equal in one thing only, then it’s circuitous bickering when it comes to discussing IR relationships.

Last time: I did NOT say Asian men need to pick themselves up by their collective bootstraps. I do NOT “blame Asian American men as a group for not doing enough asking out”.

In reading some of the blog entries in the Fightinng 44 website, as well as being all too familiar with the debate in the African American community in regards to this subject -the reaction of “we’re being left out” is an idea I find curious.

Here’s my question to those people who profess to being excluded: WHO EXACTLY is leaving you out of dating and mating?

My observation was geared toward that specific group of people with that particular question. NOT toward Asian American men in general.

My question to those who cling to that concept is: how is it that because I’m dating someone outside my race, I’m somehow curtailing YOUR freedom?

Am I saying Asian men need to get over it?
Absolutely not!

Did I dispute the fact that people of different races and genders date interracially in different numbers?
Absolutely not!

Did I say that the concerns of Asian American men shouldn’t be discussed?
Absolutely not!

Am I saying those PARTICULAR people who somehow feel that I’m prohibiting them from doing something because of who I’m with, need to get over it?

Damn straight!

Mr Yang’s article was an insightful one that I read with great interest, and I even went to the fighting 44 website to read more. What concerned me was the idea of disenfranchisement by those who are minding their own business. This idea is one that is NOT unique to Asian American men -hence my questions were not directed specifically at them in particular -but intended as a general hypothesis for the “disenfranchised”.

Finally, being one of those people who apparently keeping others perpetually lonely, I related that being I was considered a nerd, I had experienced the feeling of being passed over, and blamed others until I took stock of MYSELF. Again, NOT pointing a finger at anyone in particular except MYSELF.

….one more lesson this has taught me -IR relationships are clearly an emotional topic for a LOT of people. I perhaps mistakenly assumed that since I’m in one, I could possibly provide some insight, since the majority of te people who argue about it aren’t.

I think I’ll sit out any further discussions on this topic and just live my life.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 1:38 pm ¶
Grandpa Dinosaur wrote:

Yeah, I try to explain this problem of interracial dating and this is the second reason why I don’t date, the first reason is not being interested in personal relationships.

My family boasts a long line of “purebloods” (that aren’t inbred) and after my brother had an arranged marriage with a Cambodian-Chinese woman, my parents deemed that the bloodline had been tainted enough (YES YOU HEARD ME) and decided to seek out other “pureblooded” Cambodian men.

I don’t believe in that pureblood crap, that stuff belongs in Harry Potter.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 1:48 pm ¶
Nadra wrote:

My circle of friends is mostly black and Asian. I think one thing that’s missing from this argument is not just that Asian American women date outside of their race disproportionately, but that many (at least the ones I’ve come across) outright say that they won’t date an Asian man, aren’t attracted to Asian men, etc. What’s surprised me when I heard these comments is that they feel comfortable saying them OUT LOUD. It is socially acceptable for them to admit that they are unwilling to give Asian men a chance. Of my circle of about a half-dozen Asian female friends, two have no qualms about saying they will not date an Asian man, a third didn’t put it this way but admits to only having crushes on white guys. As a black woman, I would feel very uncomfortable saying that I wouldn’t date a black guy, that I didn’t find black guys attractive, etc. I would feel ashamed, and my family and friends would likely question me for having such feelings. It also wouldn’t be acceptable for a black man to admit to wholly ruling out black women as mates even if he was a Quincy Jones type who dated one white woman after another. To actually say that he would never date a black woman would result in a backlash. So, I’m wondering, when and why did it become all right to openly rule out dating Asian men? I, for one, have dated two Asian guys– a half-Korean/half-white guy and an Indian guy, so I continue to be shocked when people behave as if such men are wholly undesirable.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 2:23 pm ¶
Jay wrote:

if men were allowed to set the terms of the dating and marriage arenas we’d all have a wonderful interracial Disneyland, is hogwash. Women aren’t interracial gatekeepers.

Except that men do set a certain number of the terms of the dating and marriage arenas. They define masculinity and sometime use social ostracization to do this.

Apparently we of the female species (!) are either totally superficial, or else possess some awesome olfactory glands that enable us to assess the sexual desirability of potential suitors. WITHIN FIVE SECONDS!!

Ergo, that’s “Nice Guy (TM) thinking”.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 2:25 pm ¶
Roxie wrote:

Lol, Grandpa Dinosaur–and there it should stay!

In talks with the few Asian American men I know, they tell me they either just don’t date black women or won’t date black women…which as a black woman, sucks and reinforces my “we’re on the lowest rung aren’t we? why bother?” complex.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 2:33 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

“Most ppl think that asian men and black women are against dating out. Most of the time it’s more because they don’t “think” other races care for them (negative perception of self), not because they’re not interested.”

Ah, why shouldn’t black women and Asian men believe our lying eyes, Lola? And as a true blue superficial, “5 seconds” woman, I can assert that my kind is rare indeed.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 2:40 pm ¶
Mary wrote:

Not to go with one blanket answer, but the Western media is definitely a problem. I didn’t grow up in a very diverse environment, and when I think of what opened my eyes to the concept of Asian male sex symbols, it was actors like Bruce Lee and Toshiro Mifune – in Asian productions. I can’t think of an equivalently rugged Asian male lead in anything in an American movie or TV show.

I appreciated Yang’s article because “on the ground,” I’ve dated Asian men and have seen and met plenty who are happily coupled up, IR or not. This is NOT to gloss over the real issues with perception of Asian male sexiness, but I appreciated that Yang went a little deeper and captured a usually unheard-of side of it. It’s always so weird to read these discussions and these “rational” lists of reasons why Asian men shouldn’t be widely considered attractive while thinking “But… but… so many are!“

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 2:57 pm ¶
Penni Brown wrote:

Isn’t this similar to other kinds of privilege??…when you ‘benefit’ from it (non-asian men that end up with asian women), it’s hard for you to acknowledge that just maybe it wasn’t ALL because you are funny, charming and confident.

It’s hard to accept that her attraction to you or openness to your advances were initially based on old colonial economics.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 3:12 pm ¶
Penni Brown wrote:

DivergentDiva – I don’t think it’s a negative perception of self. We are hardpressed to find examples in popular culture that show black women and asian men as smart, sexy and desirable. You can’t deny that this mainstream brainwashing affects the choices that people make when choosing a partner.

I’ve NEVER lived next door to the cute ‘girl next door’ type that everyone is supposed to want. But, i’m sure all of the people that have been my neighbors wouldn’t characterize me in that way…and technically, that’s exactly what i am/was to them.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 3:20 pm ¶
Ron wrote:

No one calls out Asian women on their dating choices on a consistent basis. It is politically incorrect to challenge Asian women on this topic.

My highschool experience is totally different from my adult experience where it seems okay for Asian women to bash Asian men as too traditional and not modern enough.

Some Asian women complain about the height and other physical aspects of Asian men.

I would like an Asian woman to come forward and present her position.

Mod Note – And why would you assume her position corresponds with your request? I prefer that we not attempt call someone to speak on behalf of an entire race, particularly when Asian women like atlasien and Grandpa Dinosaur have already commented on this thread.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 3:32 pm ¶
Bang Gully wrote:

I’d like to apologize to anyone on here who was offended by my remarks. My wording is probably very callous because I don’t have much regard for the verbal niceties required by the anti-racist and feminist crowd. I’m not an anti-racist at least not with the same philosophical assumptions that the anti-racist movement shares. I don’t beleive multi-culturalism should be an end in itself and I actually think its assumptions and what it presents are quite shallow and damaging to the many cultures out there in the world. I write very crassly at times and I apologize. At the same time, I am speaking the truth from my experience.

@Lyonside – I was not trashing the female gender whatsoever in my comment. I say the same thing to “boy crazy” young girls as well. Work on yourself, don’t make boys your priority. And that’s what Im saying to dudes that are frustrated with women: don’t put them on a pedestal. They are human and they bleed, lie, and do all the evil that men do. So just improve yourself and you will attract what you want.

Everything else you wrote after that has nothing to do with what I said. Matter of fact, you are actually playing up to the stereotypes of women being “frenzied” what with the exclamations and the massive assumptions about me that have no logical basis in what I wrote.

@Erin – I’ve never read that book. However, I do read alot of sociobiology, evolutionary psychology, evolution of sexuality and other related fields. To deny or downplay or not take into account sexual attraction between genders is pretty anti-human I would say. I would say in a hypersexual culture in America, it really needs to be taken more seriously as regards how the genders percieve each others actions.

As regards the 5 seconds comment, I’ve asked the women I;ve dated, the women I’m friends with, etc and they’ve all pretty much agreed to it. None of these women are superficial. It is not superficial to acknowledge sexual attraction. It is superficial to base your actions simply on that.

Anyway , my initial posts dealt with the topic at hand “Interracial dating and Asian Americans. The critics here are trying to steer it to assault Bang Gully , the New School Norman Mailer.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 3:37 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

“I don’t think it’s a negative perception of self. We are hardpressed to find examples in popular culture that show black women and asian men as smart, sexy and desirable.”

I was pretty much expressing the sentiments that you just shared and questioned Lola about her statement, which I quoted. As a black woman, I can definitely say that I’m not beating non-black men off with a stick. They seem pretty non-interested, for the most part… this would be a truer measure, because the man does the picking, more often than not… or is the woman still the “gatekeeper” if no one’s at the gate?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 3:37 pm ¶
Grandpa Dinosaur wrote:

Roxie – LOL Thanks for agreeing with me.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 3:39 pm ¶
Ron wrote:

Of course one’s position is personal and does not represent an entire group – I am just looking for insight beyond the typical and superficial explanations as outlined above.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 3:46 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To Lola:

Just like many men of all races love black women (I mean, Halle Berry, Beyonce, Janet and Iman are considered sex symbols worldwide) but a lot of men fear rejection.

I’d be reluctant to use examples of black women who closely resemble white women as anecdotes for how men of all races love black women.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 4:22 pm ¶
R. Prince wrote:

@ Nadra #31

I went to an all girls college before transferring last year to another school and my circle of associates/friends were asian girls…I don’t know why I felt more embarrassed and saddened by the way they’d go on about how asian men are too traditional, misogynistic, etc… some even said they’d prefer to be with a white guy b/c 100% asian babies weren’t as cute as mixed ones…I kind of just sat their with my mouth open, wondering why I could never bring myself to say those things about black men. Maybe some feel it is socially acceptable for them to reject asian men afterall…..who knows?? I just found it shocking they voiced such disdain for a large group of men whom they will never even even meet individually in their lifetimes….

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 4:27 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To BangGully:

However, I do read alot of sociobiology, evolutionary psychology, evolution of sexuality and other related fields.

A lot of sociobiology, evolutionary psychology, and evolutionary sexuality consists of ethnocentric just-so stories made to describe the status quo, not of any real analysis of social trends and patterns. It tends to be very deterministic, with a whole “biology as destiny” approach.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 4:27 pm ¶
Nadra wrote:

Neither Jackson nor Iman look like white women. At all. And, while Beyonce is light, her features aren’t “Eurocentric.” Also, I didn’t realize Halle Berry was biracial for years. Back in the “Boomerang” days, she just looked like a garden variety black chick to me. Anyway, I know what you’re getting at, but I don’t think the way you put it is helpful.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 4:35 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

Indeed Treacle, I’ve seen those women held up as shining exceptions to the rule by men too many times. If there’s a popular black female sex symbol that’s medium or dark skinned with a flat, relatively wide nose (at the same time), then wake me. I’m not saying that there’s one type of way to look acceptably, truly black, at all, but there is a commonly percieved set of discerning characteristics among those of West African descent — characteristics that are notably less present among black mainstream sex symbols. But we’re digressing, this post is about the guys… the Asian guys.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 4:52 pm ¶
msday wrote:

Bang Gully,
I find Asian men to be extremely attractive and I am a black woman. Grant it, I was single and for a total of five years because I was in an area where most of the black men were unavailable and the people tended to not mix unless it was a black man and a white woman. Eventually, I met a native Italian and moved away to Italy. However, my eyes were definitely open to the possibility of an Asian man. The ones in my immediate circle seemed very shy and career driven, so being career driven myself I went about my business and remained single for years. I also don’t believe that Asian features on a man are feminine especially since sometimes black males have similar features. Don’t be so hard on yourself Asian men are handsome too.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 4:53 pm ¶
Cara wrote:

@Treacle

Janet and Iman DO NOT look like white women! Halle and Beyonce are beautiful, regardless of their complexion (and mixed heritage) these women identify as Black. So they too exemplify beaufiful BLACK women. Black women are vaired, like any other race of woman. We have diverse facial features and it’s all beautiful. Soooo…..if I say that Naveen Andrews is handsome and I’d love to make pretty babies with him. It’s not because he’s a dark(er) skinned Asian man. And conversly, if I said “wow, I’d love to get “lost” with Daniel Dae Kim” – it’s not because he’s a light(er) skinned East Asian man …. HE’S JUST FINE, end of story! …. wow I got a little carried away there. LOL

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:02 pm ¶
G.K. wrote:

I don’t think ANY of these accomplished beautiful ladies look like white women–where did THAT come from?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:08 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>I’m not an anti-racist at least not with the same philosophical assumptions that the anti-racist movement shares.

And what monolithic “movement” would that be? Cause we don’t do “colorblind” here – if that’s what you’re talking about, you’re at the wrong website.

>I was not trashing the female gender whatsoever in my comment.

Here’s a concept for you then: use the word SOME. Because saying “FEMALES” means an entire 51% of the species. I did NOT misinterpret, I read exactly what you wrote.

>Everything else you wrote after that has nothing to do with what I said.

Snark and logical progressions have no place in your world, hunh?

>being “frenzied”

That’s not frenzied – caps for me are emphasis. If I’m frenzied, you’d know it. Lessee, if I hadn’t identified myself as female, would you have said that I was playing into stereotypes? And would you have used the “logic” card at the end? I highly doubt it.

Dude, your sexism is bleeding all over the place – keep backpedaling and you might slip.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:37 pm ¶
Kevin wrote:

No offense but is it possible to talk about an Asian American topic without it delving into a topic about African Americans?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:40 pm ¶
Lola wrote:

@Penni Brown and anyone who misunderstood my statement :
“I don’t think it’s a negative perception of self. We are hardpressed to find examples in popular culture that show black women and asian men as smart, sexy and desirable. You can’t deny that this mainstream brainwashing affects the choices that people make when choosing a partner. ”

Negative perception of self doesn’t explain everything but it does have an impact on our relationships. Negative perception of self often comes from the fact that indeed we are rarely shown as sexy and desirable, so it leads us to have low self-esteem if we believe these lies about ourselves, and even when others show interest we can’t believe it. Case in point, I’ve always been wooed by all races of men (and no, i’m not light-skinned and/or white looking), I am a laid-back, smart and rather pretty young woman, but it wasn’t until recently that I accepted the fact that non-black men who wanted to date me could see me as more than an “exotic sexual experiment”. Because we’re either being portrayed as agressive and bitter or as sexual objects I believed EVERY non-black man who claimed to be attracted to me perceived me that way, which is false cause now I know from experience. While the media play a role in the way many people perceive us, we often don’t pay attention to those who want to get to know us because we are deceived by our own low self-esteem. I repeat, I don’t deny the VERY IMPORTANT IMPACT of the media (which is why I said if MTV showed an asian sex-symbol 24/7 things would change) but we can’t let that stop us from being open to the world, because personality and confidence definitely gets you far and attract at the end of the day, at least from my own experience.

@ Treacle wrote: “I’d be reluctant to use examples of black women who closely resemble white women as anecdotes for how men of all races love black women.”

A : Iman resembles white? And Halle looks more black than white, but then again it is an opinion I guess. I could name Tomiko Frasier, Kerry Washington, Liyah Kebede, Kelly Rowland, Lauryn HILL who was considered one of the “hottest” women in the world when she was in her prime!

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:45 pm ¶
Juan wrote:

Cara,
I don’t think that’s an end of story. Because then there’s also the subject of colorism and [mixed or not] ethnic people who look less ethnic and/or more white that sometimes factors itself in there.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:47 pm ¶
Minotaar wrote:

Whenever this topic comes up, the discussion always seems to start from the beginning. Its painful. Like stretching an ankle after youve sprained it.

One of the most direct ways to challenge racism or sexism is to call it out. If an employer wont hire women, call him/her out on it. If your landlord wont rent to blacks, call him/her out on it. To me, the most frustrating aspect of this problem is that you cannot take a similar strategy in this case.

Women reserve strongly their right to a veto in a choice of mates, and we all respect that. Anything less would take us back to caveman hair-dragging proto-civilization. But the problem we face is that this veto is arguably applied in a racist manner. Calling out the racism, as is so often pointed out, simply a wave of pseudo-feminist backlash – “dont tell me who to date”, and “I dont owe you any explanations” etc.

These reponses are totally justified. If you create the same circumstances, except that you withhold the race of the people involved, everyone supports the position of the woman to not be required to explain herself and not have to accept instructions on who to date.

I think the problem as it stands, and our mistaken approach to the problem, is that we are still trying to challenge racism (in the form of racist dating preferences) with sexism (in the form of degrading or questioning a womans fundamental right to choose a mate). No one (AFs, in this case) is going to cave on the sexism front for the sake of racial equality, and no one (AM’s in this case) is going to cave on the racism front for gender equality.

Oh dark day. My ankle is killing me.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:49 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

Cara,

You missed my point.

Nadra,

You got my point, but you’re right in that I could have worded it better.

I’m not disputing these women’s self-identification or the fact that society at large defines them as black.

I’m saying that the examples people use of black who “everyone” is attracted to tend to have more stereotypically European features such as straighter hair, lighter skin, narrower noses, thinner frames and so forth.

When I start seeing magazine covers that have dark skinned models with kinky more, I’ll be more convinced about their diversity. Right now, I’m just seeing more of the same.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:49 pm ¶
Lola wrote:

@ Cara : Janet and Iman DO NOT look like white women! Halle and Beyonce are beautiful, regardless of their complexion (and mixed heritage) these women identify as Black. So they too exemplify beaufiful BLACK women. Black women are vaired, like any other race of woman. We have diverse facial features and it’s all beautiful.

&

Nadra : Neither Jackson nor Iman look like white women. At all. And, while Beyonce is light, her features aren’t “Eurocentric.” Also, I didn’t realize Halle Berry was biracial for years.

AMEN @ both posts.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:50 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

Egads…typos abound in my post.

One sentence should read:
“I’m saying that the examples people use of black women who…”

Another sentence should read:
“When I start seeing magazine covers that have darked skinned models with kinky hair…”

Apologies.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:50 pm ¶
Celeste wrote:

I 2nd Treacle and DivergentDana, West African features, no matter how symmetrical do not get the same love as the types of facial features that Beyonce, Halle and Iman have. I personally benefit from this bit of privilege. I’ve dated more than one guy that has never dated a black woman before me because he “prefer’s finer features”.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:52 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

ms day, Asian features have always struck me as familiar in a positive sense as well. Ever since I became aesthetically interested in men, I’ve seen Asian men as desirable… without media prompting, without growing up around them, just as a result of having eyes. That being said, if a Se7en doppleganger came up to me proposing a relationship based on “well… no one else will take us” or “we’re gonna show them.” I’d have to throw some bitter invectives his way, and grab some pine of my own volition, rather than be the girl that’s picked last for the team because they lost the draw, and I’m sure mentally healthy Asian men feel the same about the reverse situation.

Treacle can defend him/herself, but I will say that while the women mentioned are indeed part of the pantheon of naturally-occurring black faces, the non-black men who adore them often contrast them with the rest of the group — with the majority of black women that they percieve as “blacker-appearing” (accurately, or not) in an unflattering manner. I’ve heard men build cases on finding these women attractive, time and time again with “well, she’s not really black/she looks white/she doesn’t look like the others” It’s a difficult line to toe, addressing the fact that a bias does indeed exist against features percieved as more stereotypically West African on women while not faulting the women who the bias favors or discounting their authenticity or beauty. I’ve seen it trail off into bashing way too many times — that’s definitely not where I’m coming from, and I hope it’s not what Treacle intended.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:54 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:

DivergentDana @40: thank you for making the point that men do the choosing in relationships just as much as women do. If black women are not dating and/or marrying non-black men, they are not being asked, it seems.

So with Asian men, are they not doing the asking? Are they asking, and being shot down? Do they have family restrictions/expectations? Internalized racism and feelings of not being good enough? A combination of several or all of these?

And where do Asian men/black women and Asian men/Latina women couples come in to this? It’s not as if all interracial couples consist of a POC and a white person!

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:58 pm ¶
Lola wrote:

@ Sean : “sums up EXACTLY what I getting at when I was questioning this idea of “someone leaving someone else out of IR dating”. “

I guess we’re on the same page.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 6:05 pm ¶
Johnathan wrote:

First, to comment on the earliest posts.
I don’t want to necessarily out myself for using online dating sites, but the statistics on female Asian-American sexual selection are reflected on the traditional dating site (i.e. match, yahoo, etc.).
I encourage you to sign-up on one of these websites and searching for Asian women. You will immediately discover that the VAST of the Asian American female profiles have checked that they are only interested in Asian or Caucasian males.
Virtually all of the Asian-American female profiles are some variation of only interested in Asian or Caucasian men.
Thefighting44s has quite a number of articles and posts on the subject of Asian females and White men. I felt like the article was asking why, and the topic sort of strayed from that.

Secondly,
I too am a student of sociobiology, evolutionary psychology, evolution of sexuality and other related fields.

The previous comment that these fields just describe the status quo ridiculous. This area of science is seeking to describe the way things are, not how they ought to be. Treacle commits the naturalistic fallacy.

‘It tends to be very deterministic, with a whole “biology as destiny” approach.’
Wrong.
Genes + Environment = Behavior.
Variation in environment creates a variation of behavior. No scientist claims that behavior is a product of genes alone.
You should read up on the subject, you might like it.

But, I digress.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 6:13 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>The previous comment that these fields just describe the status quo ridiculous. This area of science is seeking to describe the way things are, not how they ought to be. Treacle commits the naturalistic fallacy.

Johnathan: except that when we are talking about modern human behavior and human evolutionary behavior, there remains much conjecture and assumptions, some of which are based on observer bias and modern cultural norms of that observer.

Ideally, yes, science would always seek to describe actualities based on fact. The reality is that it often takes someone bucking the system and current scientific and/or sociological thought to gain more facts and new/more accurate interpretations. Have you read Gould’s Mismeasure of Man?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 7:10 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

Johnnathan- “The previous comment that these fields just describe the status quo ridiculous. This area of science is seeking to describe the way things are, not how they ought to be.”

The idea has been popularized by the media, who usually pick the hackiest hacks to talk to about it, people who tend to put these things in just-so terms and imply that they’re immutable and culturally constant geographically and historically. That, and the Internet is crawling with people — usually acolytes of aforementioned hacks — who will freely misappropriate evpsych to support their sexism and/or racism.

Kevin- “No offense but is it possible to talk about an Asian American topic without it delving into a topic about African Americans?”

Usually this problem occurs the most here with IR dating which is an issue so contentious and prone to all kinds of potholes, flame wars, and the like that there was a post here about deliniating criteria for reintroducing the topic. That being said, if I played an integral part in derailing the topic, I apologize. One of the things that has to change about race relations in America is the idea that it’s all about black and white, and there’s only room for those two voices in the discourse. Is there any possibility that there’s an unequal amount of family pressure on Asian males to practice endogamy, as a result of carrying on the family name? I’ve heard some guys say that even as their aunts, sisters and mothers engaged in interracial relationships, they were implored to “keep it Asian” for this reason.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 7:23 pm ¶
Celeste wrote:

@Johnathan: The online dating racial acceptance category is indeed a sight to behold. I was on match.com (in my opinion a meatmarket) as well as eHarmony(where I met my husband) off and on for about 3 years. Some people literally listed only one race and sometimes it wasn’t even their own race. Some people listed eveyr race except for one. The race most often left out in my experience, yep you guessed it, black. The best was when people who listed every race except mine then had the audacity to wink at/email me! How gracious that they made an exception (@Kevin-sorry to mention more black stuff on the asian post)
@Ailurophile: I’m the BW half of an AM/BW marriage and we have never seen another couple like us in person, only online. It’s bound to happen eventually I guess. My own personal observation from being on eHarmony is that I got matched up with just as many asian men as black men. There’s no way for me to know what mixture of factors resulted in that but I thought it was odd.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 7:53 pm ¶
Jay wrote:

Mr Yang’s article was an insightful one that I read with great interest, and I even went to the fighting 44 website to read more. What concerned me was the idea of disenfranchisement by those who are minding their own business.

The problem is that the perception is that they’re not minding their own business – Asian-American women are allegedly trashing Asian-American men a lot in their circles. (I don’t really encounter it in my experiences but I can’t really speak for people who do.)

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 7:55 pm ¶
Celeste wrote:

A bit more on topic, my in-laws have that same concentric circles mindset of acceptable spouses and put up a bit of a stink when he informed them of our intent to marry.
However, since my husband is financially independent they didn’t have as much leverage as they might have if they were paying his mortgage or there was an inheritance at stake (these things were successfully leveraged with several of my exboyfriends). I think this makes a huge difference in whether or not a son will stand up to his parents. If anything, my in-laws will need his help as they get older so that probably took some of the steam out of their protest.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 8:03 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:

Johnathan: What about non-Asian women? Do they express interest in other than white men? And what about the men? What races of women are they willing to date? If an Asian man (for example), checks off that he’s only willing to date Asian women whilst simultaneously complaining of rejection and that no women want him etc.

White men and white women date and marry “out” at about the same rates. The same with Latino/as – I know Latinos can be of any race, but I have to go by what the Census categories are here. This is why I think there is something more afoot with Asian men not “succeeding in the relationship market.”

If it’s not about women being Picky Vicky McSnobs, or Asian men being gutless eunuchs who sit at home in front of the TV every Saturday night – there has to be a less sexist explanation. Perhaps Asian men are under more pressure (from families, peers, themselves) to marry one of “their own.” Perhaps white men pursue Asian women. Do Latino and black men pursue Asian women?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 8:06 pm ¶
Johnathan wrote:

Lyonside,
I don’t want to get off topic.

I have read Gould.
I think the majority of scientists disagree with his conclusions.
It is notable that Gould wasn’t opposed to evolutionary theory and didn’t dispute that it had an impact on human development.
Gould agreed that Genes + Environment = Behavior.
The devil is in the details. He argued that genes play a much smaller role in modern human behavior and interaction.

Maybe he is right? There is a lively debate over the issue. It still doesn’t change the model.

But, back to Asian women.
Assuming that there is a bias among Asian women for White men then 1) why does it matter who Asian women are choosing to date or marry, and 2) if it is a problem then what do you folks propose as a solution?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 8:11 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

Oh, sorry… “Johnathan”. I accidentally mangled your name up there.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 8:22 pm ¶
sfsinger wrote:

So before I delve into the comments 2 things in this piece stood out.

1. The author insists his parents aren’t racist.
- Sorry not buying it. When white people express the same sentiment no one makes excuses for them except for apologists. I can see why one would be reluctant to label one’s parents but let’s just call a spade a spade.
2. Interracial dating was ‘difficult’ in the 70’s. Well he mentioned the Loving case and I think that would exemplify difficulty. No one was getting arrested for marrying someone.

Why is it that people who are marginalized almost always engage in the same behavior done to them to others?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 9:24 pm ¶
sfsinger wrote:

Bang Gully – I am Black and when I lived in the UK I dated a few South Asian men. I had lots of questions about the cultural differences and comparing how ‘race’ is viewed in a different country. I also met a Chinese man in SF where I live…but he had a girlfriend so that was a no-go. I am open to getting to know anyone who’ personable and respectful. Sometimes you’d just have coffee and be friends, sometimes there could be a potential romance. If people would just be friends and be open and are available we’d have some enriching life experiences.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 9:34 pm ¶
kerrita k. wrote:

so i essentialized my roommate who is korean and in an interracial relationship with a ww. and i asked him about why asian men don’t date out. his response was that their features were negativelly feminized – as a previous comment mentioned. the same features that are desirable on women are not on men.
and as his african-american woman roommate who dates out i have never, ever been on a date with an asian man. and have not had friendships with one since college 15 years ago.

if the issue of ir dating were about women being mobilized or energized or questioning – there would be much more social acceptance of drum banging and interrogation.

so, are asian men being punished for being men and pushing back at the tired trope of stoic (white) masculinity? are they being punished, even here, for posing the question of asian male ir dating in a way that violates some ideal of ‘what men do’?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 9:42 pm ¶
sfsinger wrote:

Sean –

I picked up on the exchange between you and John and perhaps I am having comprehension problems as well. I also came to same conclusion. Perhaps that is not the issue and perhaps you are not aware but the tone that you wrote your response appeared coded in the manner described.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:02 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

When I listed those interracial dating discussion clichés, it was not for y’all to memorize and recite in your own words. *I was actually making fun of you!*

@Sean
if the races are equal in one thing only, then it’s circuitous bickering when it comes to discussing IR relationships.

IR relationships are clearly an emotional topic for a LOT of people. I perhaps mistakenly assumed that since I’m in one, I could possibly provide some insight, since the majority of te people who argue about it aren’t.

In other words, you don’t understand what the fuss is, since you’re in an IR relationship and have found that race is no big deal. People who get all in a huff about IR relationships are simply being “emotional.” We have no room to talk since we’re not in IR relationships ourselves (and possibly jealous of you), and should leave it up to you, the expert, to speak on behalf of everyone. And your decree is that our concerns, complaints, and criticisms are blown out of proportion and laughable.

Or, as I would put it,
“Why can’t we all be colorblind? You people are racist for picking on me and my ASIAN GIRLFRIEND all the time. I don’t even see race.”

I did NOT say Asian men need to pick themselves up by their collective bootstraps. I do NOT “blame Asian American men as a group for not doing enough asking out”.

What concerned me was the idea of disenfranchisement by those who are minding their own business.

Am I saying those PARTICULAR people who somehow feel that I’m prohibiting them from doing something because of who I’m with, need to get over it?

Damn straight!

In other words, Asian men who feel disenfranchised by their stereotypical image, reputation, and portrayal by the media, and feel “left behind” by the interracial dating disparity are silly for feeling that way and “need to get over it.” You might even say they need to “pick themselves up by their collective bootstraps.” You’re an EXPERT on how Asian men feel about the interracial dating disparity, since you have an ASIAN GIRLFRIEND, and Asian men who have any complaints or concerns at all about their treatment in the dating world are just whiners and should just shut up. There’s obviously no problem from where you’re standing.

I related that being I was considered a nerd, I had experienced the feeling of being passed over, and blamed others until I took stock of MYSELF.

Since you’ve been considered a “nerd,” you know what it’s like to be an Asian guy! Incredible! And you’ve used your nerd-powers to see things from the Asian guy’s perspective. Conclusion: Asian guys have no one to blame but themselves.

Or, as I would put it,
“Asian men need to stop being so effeminate, intellectual, xenophobic, weak-willed, and afraid to ask women out. THEN we’d stop being so prejudiced against them.”

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:11 pm ¶
Cara wrote:

@ Kevin and @ DivergentDana

I think some of the comments refering to Black Women steme from the (full) Jeff Yang article. He mentions the emergence of AMBW relationships. At least that’s were I was coming from. Other ppl can speak for themselves….though some folks did get off topic. But inregards to the AMBW comments, I think it is apart of the larger discussion (main topic). I brought up black women because of the article, not to put focus on Blacks. We ARE apart of the Asian Am inter-racial relationship issue, so maybe that makes some ppl uncomfortable. I don’t know. (But I understand the concern with focusing on the Blk/Wht dichotomy.) ….

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:24 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

@DivergentDana

“Is there any possibility that there’s an unequal amount of family pressure on Asian males to practice endogamy, as a result of carrying on the family name? I’ve heard some guys say that even as their aunts, sisters and mothers engaged in interracial relationships, they were implored to “keep it Asian” for this reason.”

*gasp* ACTUAL INSIGHT! Are you actually considering things from the Asian guy’s perspective? Sympathy is so hot.

You can get my email from Carmen, wink wink.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:26 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To DivergentDana:

Yes, you’re right. I’m not at all trying to discount those women’s beauty or accomplishments. What am I saying is that it’s important to be critical of exactly why the media favors them over women with more “ethnic” features.

It’s not a coincidence that the top black models of any given era (Iman, Naomi Campbell, Tyra Banks, Liya Kebede, and now Chanel Iman) are women with features that are traditionally seen as white. Ignoring that ignores how beauty is constructed to exclude most women of color.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 10:59 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To Johnathan:

The previous comment that these fields just describe the status quo ridiculous. This area of science is seeking to describe the way things are, not how they ought to be. Treacle commits the naturalistic fallacy.

“The way things “varies by time, culture, and place.

“The way things are” is also strongly influenced by hierarchies of power, not just within society at large, but also within academia.

Furthermore, theories of evolutionary psychology and sociobiology are often used to reify discrimination against oppressed groups by explaining away their subordinate positions as natural.

I don’t use your big words, but I fail to see how I’m committing a naturalistic fallacy as I at no point asserted that what is natural is good, or even made any judgments about what qualifies as good.

I’m simply saying that before putting your faith, wholesale into “squishy” fields like sociobiology, it’s important to remember that “science” was used and is being used to oppress minority groups.

Concepts of epistemology, objectivity, and standpoint seem especially relevant here.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 11:07 pm ¶
Ejunco wrote:

Liked the article made sense.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 11:12 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

@Ailurophile

“So with Asian men, are they not doing the asking? Are they asking, and being shot down? Do they have family restrictions/expectations? Internalized racism and feelings of not being good enough? A combination of several or all of these?”

I can only speak for myself and not on behalf of all AA men, but I would say E. All of the above.

“So with Asian men, are they not doing the asking?”

I’m not the kind of guy who bases his entire self-worth on whether or not girls go out with him, and I have greater priorities than dating. So I don’t do a lot of asking out in the first place.

“Are they asking, and being shot down?”

I have been shot down, like any guy, but don’t blame it solely on being Asian. I do, however, realize that the way the media portrays my race, which is a certain way for certain historical/political reasons and not simply for yuks, does set up prejudices and perceptions. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

“Do they have family restrictions/expectations?”

Yes, I do. I was taught by my hardworking, honorable, and well-meaning parents to put education before dating. They never told me that I would be disowned for dating someone of another race, but they have let me learn for myself that different people from different backgrounds may have cultural values that differ from my own. This lesson of cultural pride has been particularly important for someone like me who grew up in an area virtually devoid of any sort of Asian-American community. Does this make us Asian supremacists, xenophobic, and/or racist? I don’t think so. I have pride in myself and in my family. If pride is a sin… well, I don’t believe in sin.

The whole point of multiculturalism is that white upper-middle class liberals (for instance) can’t judge another culture’s values by their own. If people understood the socioeconomic and sociopolitical reasons that my Chinese ancestors immigrated to the United States at the time that they did, they wouldn’t be so boneheaded in making proclamations about what we should do or how we should feel.

“Internalized racism and feelings of not being good enough?”

Oh your god, yes. Coming from a working-class immigrant family of color can be a real bitch. I still struggle with these issues and feelings on a daily basis.

Here’s something new: Why don’t people just ask Asian men what they want and how they feel? What I want is not necessarily to marry a white girl (as if that fixes anything), but to be recognized as a unique human being with a not-so-unique set of burdens and struggles imposed by the history and politics of race, class, and gender. And, along the way, I would appreciate more question-asking than blanket cliché declarations by self-proclaimed experts.

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 11:19 pm ¶
Brethren Priestess wrote:

Interesting, isn’t it, that Yang’s parents said, “The more similar your partner is to you without actually being a blood relative, the better.” Yet the assumption seems to be that his partners should be female, i.e. not as similar to him as they could be.

I don’t suppose we want to through that “little” matter of homosexuality into the mix when discussing interracial dating stereotypes, do we?

But it is important to note that parents of most ethnic backgrounds who defend in-group pairing do NOT argue for their children’s pairing with persons of the same gender. Same, but not too much the same. How does that factor in?

Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 11:54 pm ¶
StuffBlackPeopleLike wrote:

Black guys definitely like Asian women… it’s becoming more prevalent and traditional Asian families are becoming more comfortable. This combination has the most beautiful children.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 12:11 am ¶
Phil wrote:

I saw an ABC 20/20 episode where it cited a study on women & online dating: Although most women said on their profile that they were open to dating outside their ethnicity, in actuality few did online unless the “outside” guy earned at least 30K more or had high social status that compensated for their ethnicity. I’m assuming most of these women were White. Would that explain the IR dating patterns we see?

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 12:11 am ¶
Phil wrote:

Further to my earlier post, here is the study, I think:

http://www.aeaweb.org/annual_mtg_papers/2006/0106_0800_0502.pdf

In order to receive as many replies as the average white man, a hispanic man would need $77,000 more income per year, a black man $154,000, and an asian man would need $247,000 to be on a par with the average white man. The average man received a little more than 2 responses (13 for women) and 56% of men (21% of women) received 0 contacts. So, this additional income may not even be raising the minorities to much more than that general average for men in terms of responses

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 12:32 am ¶
Lola wrote:

@Treacle : “I’m saying that the examples people use of black who “everyone” is attracted to tend to have more stereotypically European features such as straighter hair, lighter skin, narrower noses, thinner frames and so forth.

When I start seeing magazine covers that have dark skinned models with kinky more, I’ll be more convinced about their diversity. Right now, I’m just seeing more of the same.”

I don’t think Iman and halle look white (and halle doesn’t have “european features”). But other people “everyone likes” are Tomiko Frasier, Gabrielle Union, Kerry Washington, Liyah Kebede, Kelly Rowland, Lauryn HILL (who was considered one of the hottest women in the world when she was in her prime!), Agbani Darego (miss nigeria who was miss world 2001 and worked for L’Oreal), Alek Wek (who seems to get more love from non-blacks, not to mention that her man is white, not that it “validates” her but it proves that she attracts non-blacks), Pam Grier, Grace Jones. I’m not denying colorism and it’s horrible effects, I’m saying there are dark-skinned women who are considered sex-symbols too.

Black Edition of Italian Vogue :
http://nymag.com/daily/fashion/2008/06/uveiled_italian_vogues_allblac_1.html
There’s progress.

Another thing, this is a touchy one, although I agree that kinky hair should get equal love, straight hair isn’t “european” IMO, even if it is “considered”. Indians, asians (the race), native americans, most arabs have straight hair, in fact, in general non-black races do, and that naturally. If that was “european”, europeans would be the only ones having it naturally.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 12:50 am ¶
CL wrote:

Not many will like to read this as it places much responsibility on Asian males, but there is a much greater onus on Asians males to not dishonor their family by dating and marrying outside their race. Successful Asian males are expected by their parents (who, let’s face it, all successful AMs are attempting to win approval of) to marry a high quality female of their own race.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 2:49 am ¶
Ron wrote:

I lived in a neighborhood where asian males married black women. Actually, some of these women are married to famous black celeberties.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 8:29 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

I think the path is clear as to what needs to be done. Fight negative media stereotypes of Asian men (desexualized) and negative media stereotypes of Asian women (oversexualized). Increase the self-esteem of young Asian-American women, and increase support for them, so that they take more pride in being Asian… and so they don’t engage in self-hating behavior such as saying “I don’t like Asian men”, and so that they don’t have the highest suicide rate of any group of young women by race. Increase the self-esteem of young Asian-American men so that they’re also more confident, feel more supported and have greater ability to fight back against the corrosive racism that says they have a lower value as American citizens and human beings.

Telling anyone who they should have sex with is not going to accomplish anything.

Also, to broaden the perspective, young dating people do not equal the whole of “Asian-America”. The concerns of young children, married couples, the elderly, should all be important too. Because people on the internet tend to be younger, I think the interracial dating issue sucks up a lot more conversation space. It’s a symptom — a very visible symptom — but it’s not the root cause, and it’s never going to go away until the root cause is addressed.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 8:36 am ¶
Treacle wrote:

Lola,

You used all those examples in your previous post, and I did read your previous post.

We disagree.

When I look through fashion magazines or watch TV, I don’t women who look like me…dark skinned women with kinky hair.

The few dark skinned women I do see, like Alek Wek, aren’t defined as “traditional” beauties but rather as special or exotic beauties. Their beauty is marginalized and otherized ,and their difference is fetishized.

When I see Gabrielle Union or Kerry Washington or Tomiko Frasier or Kelly Rowland on the cover a magazine other than Essence, you’ll have a better argument I think.

Right now, the mainstream media definitely prefers a certain look. It’s all around us, and I’m not sure why you’re insistent on arguing that there isn’t a preference in our society for people who look more like white people.

Another thing, this is a touchy one, although I agree that kinky hair should get equal love, straight hair isn’t “european” IMO, even if it is “considered”

Had you stopped there, I think you would have gotten my point. As it is, I believe you missed it. Here it is again, people who look closest to white people are considered the most attractive.

The end.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 9:14 am ¶
Treacle wrote:

Also,

Your example about the Italian edition of Black Vogue seems to illustrate my point that black women are marginalized.

The fact that they had to have a special issue featuring black women, rather than consistently incorporating black women into their magazine is not a good thing to me.

It’s like “Here, we’ll thrown ‘em a bone. Maybe then they’ll stop bothering us about diversity.”

I’d also have been more impressed if the “black” issue of Vogue was one with worldwide circulation, like the American, British, or French editions.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 9:22 am ¶
Sean wrote:

sfsinger wrote:

Sean –

I picked up on the exchange between you and John and perhaps I am having comprehension problems as well. I also came to same conclusion. Perhaps that is not the issue and perhaps you are not aware but the tone that you wrote your response appeared coded in the manner described.

sfsinger,

Thanks for some actual intellegent discussion and non-sarcastic feedback. To avoid re-hashing the same things again I’ll refer you to post #29. and say again I was not refering to Asian men specifically. I was speaking to those people (i.e Asian, Black , White, Latin, Martian) who have this idea of “they’re leaving us out”, or in other words “WE need to get back at THEM”. That’s who I was refering to as the “disenfranchised”. If you percieved such a tone, you are correct: that was NOT the issue, and it was certainly not my intention as I’ve explained before.

I figured that because I mentioned that my gf was Asian and I’m not, I’m automatically filed as “the bad guy” who’s apparently stealing someone else’s property, so I guess the emotional, irrational and sarcastic responses should have been expected.

Like I said before, I’ll just live my life now and let others argue about it. Thanks.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 10:27 am ¶
Kevin wrote:

atlasian,

Quick question,

How does an Asian American man increase his self-esteem and sexual confidence when Asian American woman are outdating and marrying at huge numbers?

Think objectivly, not through your own biased opinion.

Does that even make sense if you actually think about it? One thing I learned in life is that you can’t lie to yourself. It’ll destroy you. The opinion that Asian American women are very dangerous to Asian men when it comes to reinforcing the asexual Asian male stereotype is very real.

Asian women complain about confident Asian men so they date out. Seeing so many Asian women date out erodes confidence.

Chicken or the egg?

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 1:58 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:

“Think objectivly, not through your own biased opinion” = “Agree with my tautology or shut up”

Nope.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 2:09 pm ¶
Jay wrote:

How does an Asian American man increase his self-esteem and sexual confidence when Asian American woman are outdating and marrying at huge numbers?

I thought the “self” in self-esteem wasn’t linked to anyone else.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 2:36 pm ¶
kerrita k. wrote:

@ cvt – i love that statement.! can i steal it and use it with my students?

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 2:39 pm ¶
kerrita k. wrote:

oops. wrong thread. i’m gonna take the previous over the colorblindness one!
:0)

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 2:40 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

So Kevin, what should Asian women ideally do? Date exclusively Asian to show adequate support? Refuse to exclude Asian men from their dating pool entirely? Is there any way that an Asian woman (let’s say she’s married to a white guy who she just happened to fall in love with while being open to the possibility of AMs as well) can show her support for Asian men besides giving them access to her genitalia, or is that one of the most important things? If she has an anti-Asian preference, should she still date Asian men and waste everyone’s time just so she can say she “gave them a shot”, or change her preferences? If she should change her preferences, how does she start to do that, especially since you’re willing to concede that she would have little societal assistance in doing so. Furthermore, is there anything that you feel Asian men should do that doesn’t have to do with the Asian women who aren’t sexually interested in them? What about white women not being as receptive as white men are to the idea of dating an Asian of the opposite gender — which is not the fault of Asian women.

“How does an Asian American man increase his self-esteem and sexual confidence when Asian American woman are outdating and marrying at huge numbers? ”

Perhaps he has to develop these things through a non-sexual venue, because he has only marginal control over the actions and wills of others. He can look for love, enduring a higher than average rejection rate (based on some B.S.) in order to find women who value him as a man and an Asian man, and use his resources to combat negative stereotyping and racism.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 2:55 pm ¶
Lola wrote:

@ Treacle, I see what you’re saying, but I think you missed my point too, my main point was, black women ARE desired inspite of what the media tries to make us believe, that’s why I listed a few sex-symbols in the first place, at first I wasn’t trying to probve that we were “treated fairly by the media” since we obviously aren’t. But even if the international sex-symbols are rare and do less covers, even if we still have to keep struggling, we have dark-skinned sex symbols. Kerry Washington is totally mainstream especially after Ray, non-blacks KNOW her. Lauryn Hill did the cover of Elle or Vogue and Time Magazine. Jenifer Hudson did Vogue. The black girls from Vogue aren’t “non-traditional” like Alek Wek (I see your point for “black vogue” but progress needs to start somewhere) and I dont see how they look “close to white”. Kelly Rowland is mainstream, not to mention her first album was a total success in EUROPE. But the main point is we are desired and I’ve heard it from the horse’s mouth (non-blacks), I totally know we’re not represented enough, i’m not blind or in denial, but having Agbani miss world ought to TELL US that we ARE desired, that was my main point.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 3:18 pm ¶
Johnathan wrote:

#86 Phil
Thank you so much for posting that paper. FASCINATING! Do you have any more information on the topic?
Racialicious really must do a post on racial
preferences in the online dating world.

#66 Celeste
Spot on! I couldn’t agree more! It is amazing to me that people will list a preference for all races, except Black.

Treacle-
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
You are right about some people misusing sociobiology to justify social engineering.
I’ve only had one experience, at HBES a couple years ago, with a Professor who attempted to demonstrate a causal relationship between racial IQ differences and crime, poverty, and promiscuity. WOW.
Maybe I should out him and post the paper here on racialicious…
I’m scared to ask what you think of Shermer’s new book “The Mind of the Market.”

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 4:19 pm ¶
Kevin wrote:

Thanks for picking on one “controversial” statement and completely ignoring the rest of the post. No surprise.

Also, it doesn’t mean you should agree with me or “shut up.” It means that everyone should put their own vision aside and try to understand the situation from another perspective.

So, I ask again, how are Asian men supposed to be confident in their own sexuality when we have so much negative feedback through popular North American culture and Asian women dating out in massive numbers?

I know many Asian women who still can’t bear to acknowledge it but they admitted it logically makes sense. Additionally, one of the primary concerns of Asian America is the emasculation of Asian men and Asian women couldn’t possibly destroy that injustice when they’re actively reinforcing it.

See, I’m fine with that. However, I want Asian women to stop saying they support Asian men while dating white men. Do what you want. It’s a free country but don’t date white men but don’t say you support us.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 4:38 pm ¶
Kevin wrote:

***It’s a free country but don’t date white men but say you support us.***

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 4:41 pm ¶
bdsista wrote:

I hear what Kevin is saying and I agree about the comments about Asian women openly saying things about not wanting to date AM when you would have some serious heat doing that if you were AFAM. My ex was half Black half Japanese and at the time it was totally not in the equastion(sp?) but his orientation was Black and then I had cousins who were Blasian so it was the norm for me. Being a Black female I have to say I have NEVER in my almost 50 years on this planet been approached by an AM of any group, and the only time I remotely got interest was in SF at an immigration law conference and this fine Korean guy and I had a conversation and he hugged me goodbye. So being an east coast girl, I figure that AM are more open on the west coast, but I could be wrong. I think BW are open in fact perhaps more open to dating AM than WM because there is no negative history to deal with. Also, I think the things that people characterize as negatives for professional BW, (ambition, want someone with education, money, smart, etc.) are not negatives in the Asian community. But I liked Yang’s article. Oh, and Kevin and Dana, the reason why BW are brought up is b/c ultimately if AM and BW don’t marry, then you have generations of people who do not carry forth their values. Ultimately, IMO, you have people who are left out of the community of couples, families (if they choose not to reproduce or adopt w/o a partner) and in some cases become more marginalized when their parents die. I have friends in their 50s who are accomplished BW who have never married and biologically are past their time to have children. Their dreams of family have been shattered by lack of finding suitable mates.
So, I posit this question, do AM date BW over 50? Is there even any discussion of dating for the older crowd that will not being having children thank you?

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 5:21 pm ¶
Jay wrote:

So, I ask again, how are Asian men supposed to be confident in their own sexuality when we have so much negative feedback through popular North American culture and Asian women dating out in massive numbers?

“It hurts when I do this, doctor!”
“Don’t do it then!”

And I’m not talking about not dating. If you’re having trouble with a certain type of culture, make your own.

See, I’m fine with that. However, I want Asian women to stop saying they support Asian men while dating white men. Do what you want. It’s a free country but don’t date white men but don’t say you support us.

I don’t understand this. You’re not trying to control their actions while you’re trying to control their actions? That makes no sense.

And so you don’t want Asian-American women to say they support you. You want them to totally trash you instead?

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 5:44 pm ¶
lunanoire wrote:

Will someone who is an AF who has expressly stated that they aren’t into AM explain why? Has someone who has asked this question of a friend/etc. please share the answer?

Is there a difference between AA in places like Hawaii and San Francisco and other AA areas compared to a small town in Nebraska? From my cynical perspective, it seems like if you’re in an undesired race&gender group, you get to choose between being one of a handful and nobody’s really interested or one of relatively many and the pickings are slim because of the race&gender imbalance and “fierce competition” for the attention of the few who are interested in your race&gender.

Having said that, I do think that it’s easier to correct a person’s cultural expectations of you when they are from ouside your culture rather than from the inside.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 6:01 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

I still don’t understand, Kevin, is it categorical exclusion of AMs you have a problem with, or interracially dating whites at all?

“So, I ask again, how are Asian men supposed to be confident in their own sexuality when we have so much negative feedback through popular North American culture and Asian women dating out in massive numbers?”

How do you feel about my previous suggestions? And I’d also like to get a clearer vision of your position on the issue via the (admittedly legion) questions I asked in the last post.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 7:19 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

Jay- “And I’m not talking about not dating. If you’re having trouble with a certain type of culture, make your own.”

Huh? To imply that even if you were able to make your own culture (which is a pretty vast undertaking, I must say, as an anthro major) that it would go unaffected and “untroubled” by the larger, more dominant culture that it resides within, is…. a bit fanciful. I hope you’ll expound upon this suggestion.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 7:27 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

“But I liked Yang’s article. Oh, and Kevin and Dana, the reason why BW are brought up is b/c ultimately if AM and BW don’t marry, then you have generations of people who do not carry forth their values.”

Are there special values that are held by only one gender of a group? If so, what are they? And stats show that BW are having children despite their singleness and some AMs go to Asia to find mates, where the playing field is more level. Unlike the stats for black marriage between men and women, where marriage rates are about equally low — implying that it’s not outmarriage as much as it is people not getting married to anyone, there is indeed a marked disparity between the number of married Asian women and Asian men that is probably the result of outmarriage. Around the 40-49 bracket however, the levels become almost totally even. Is this a generational effect, or does it suggest that it takes longer for Asian men to get paired off? (both of which are feasible hypotheses)
The overwhelming majority of Asian men from the age of 35 on are married (84% and higher), although they may have had a harder time getting to that point. As for black women, around 40-49, 70% are married, and it gets higher from there, but no, it’s not very good news for the portion of black women within that 30% that want to wait until marriage to commense breeding.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/marr-div/2004detailed_tables.html

If I made any incorrect/unfounded assertions based on the numbers, feel free to correct me, because I’m not a numbers person.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 8:05 pm ¶
Jay wrote:

Huh? To imply that even if you were able to make your own culture (which is a pretty vast undertaking, I must say, as an anthro major) that it would go unaffected and “untroubled” by the larger, more dominant culture that it resides within, is…. a bit fanciful. I hope you’ll expound upon this suggestion.

I don’t think I mean culture in the anthro sense, more like cultural niches. Things like KevJumba/HappySlip episodes. I’m not creating a new culture to try and fight off the other one – that is a flight of fancy.

Of course, the reason KevJumba and HappySlip are so successful is because they really enjoy what they do.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 9:05 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:

But many Asian Americans are involved in cultural niches and subcultures already, Jay… while it can serve as a form of protection, ideas from the dominant culture seep in unless the subculture/niche defines itself by its opposition to these tenets at its very core.

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 9:46 pm ¶
dramelyrique wrote:

Kevin,

How can you expect an Asian American woman to only date Asian men when the vast majority of the population is Non-Asian? It may seem like a large percentage of Asian women are dating outside their race but when you consider the demographics of the US, most Asian women are still dating and marrying Asian men despite the lack of them. Even putting the racial demographics aside, Asian women are statistically still dating Asian men over any other race.

But would it really make a difference if Asian women only dated Asian men? Because that’s how it used to be and I think it’s fair to say that perceptions and stereotypes of Asian men were even worse back then.

This is not completely on topic but speaking of Black women and beauty, the current issue of Italy’s Vogue features only Black models. (I already sent a link through delicious, Carmen, if you’re interested)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/fashion/19BLACK.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 10:09 pm ¶
Alexis wrote:

I don’t get why society tries to deem dating anyone other then white or Asian is bad. I’ve seen some half black half Asian men and women and they are stunning, I think mixed children are awesome and they grow up with two rich heritages. I myself am Bermudian and African-American and my husband is Irish- American. Before i met my husband i dated Hispanic, South Asian, East Asian, White, Black, you name it. I only saw personalities not skin colors. And when I have kids I will raise them the same.

Posted 26 Jun 2008 at 2:42 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

“But would it really make a difference if Asian women only dated Asian men? Because that’s how it used to be and I think it’s fair to say that perceptions and stereotypes of Asian men were even worse back then.”

Good point. As I keep saying, the dating disparity is a symptom, not a root cause.

I just have more respect for Asian-American men than to believe that their primal, close-to-metaphysical urge is for a stream of dates/sex from Asian-American women and without that, they will never achieve ego validation. Asian-American men are stronger than that and have overcome worse.

Posted 26 Jun 2008 at 7:03 am ¶
J wrote:

Do Asian men really want to be dated by Asian women who think they are doing them a favor. I know as a Black woman I decided I wanted to be dated by someone who considered me desirable not someone who thinks I am his MLK day assignment….Believe you me you dont want to be that girlfriend who gets told ‘Usually I dont date Black girls but I find myself inexplicably drwan to you ( by a Black guy)….heck give me a white fetishist anyday…(jk..that is not ideal either)

Posted 26 Jun 2008 at 3:28 pm ¶
J wrote:

By the way I am not saying all Asian women are this way or all Black guys. Just that I think Asian men are better off without the women who actually say I wont date an Asian man…

Posted 26 Jun 2008 at 3:33 pm ¶
Kelly wrote:

In terms of Black models, there’s a Black model currently on the French Vogue. I think what Italian vogue is doing is great. Italy seems to be quite progressive in terms of this. Wasn’t milan the city that banned stick thin models?

Also, i noticed that someone mentioned Naomi Campbell as having features that are “traditionally White”. Other than the fact that she wears long weaves (btw, why is having long straight hair a White thing when many non-White groups like East Asians for example generally much straighter hair than whites?) and sometimes coloured contacts, she is a great example of a beautiful Black women that is considered desirable world wide. She is dark brown skinned, with beautiful full lips, great bone structure and expressive eyes. It seems that if a Black woman is considered desirable by many people, she is labelled as “looking White”. I’ve even heard this argument applied to Gabrielle Union before who btw a lot of non-Black guys find very hot.

Posted 26 Jun 2008 at 9:36 pm ¶
lunanoire wrote:

Is some of this related to some (usually) younger women’s desire to be with a “bad boy” or “thug,” or even “someone you won’t/can’t take home to Mom”? Some people are in IR to piss off their parents. How many non-Asian American girls and women are warned never to come home w/ an Asian-American guy?

Posted 27 Jun 2008 at 2:13 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:

Lunanoire – I’d wager a considerable number are told that; also, men are told to bring home a girl “like them” (as Yang stated in his article) or else not to bring home a girl of another or a particular race.

There is also the racist and sexist idea, inherited from white patriarchy, that certain women are just for sex, and others for marriage. Many women are chary of being put into the “just for sex” category and might turn down a man because they believe that’s what he wants from them.

Posted 27 Jun 2008 at 6:24 pm ¶
Teresa Cheng wrote:

And of course, there is no talk of interracial queer relationships. I realize that Jeff Yang is focusing on heterosexual relationships and that was his intention. It would just be great to see more discussion on race and queer relationships and friendships…because god knows, there is a lot of interesting power dynamics goin’ on there.

Posted 01 Jul 2008 at 11:15 am ¶
Jeff Yang wrote:

Hey Teresa,

I’ve been following this thread with interest (as usual) and just wanted to note–the reason why I didn’t go into more detail regarding interracial gay and lesbian relationships is because the issues are unique enough to warrant their own piece, which I’m planning on doing as soon as I can find the right newspeg. Maybe if I end up being part of the wedding party when a friend of mine gets married later this year. (Note: He *did* threaten to make us all wear bridesmaid’s dresses, which I hope was tongue in cheek. If not, I’d better start dieting now.)

Jeff

Posted 01 Jul 2008 at 6:36 pm ¶
Gorgeous Black Women wrote:

@ Kelly

Kelly wrote:
In terms of Black models, there’s a Black model currently on the French Vogue.
It’s Noemie Lenoir. She’s multiracial and very popular from the supermodel era. It’s the equivalent of Naomi Campbell getting another UK Vogue cover. Big f-ing deal. These are celebrities really, not just models. I’ll be impressed when they give the cover to an unknown black model. After all, almost all the white models on their covers are unknown.

Italy seems to be quite progressive in terms of this.
Actually, their catwalks are probably less diverse than NYC’s though probably a bit more diverse (by one or two models of color) than Paris.
Wasn’t milan the city that banned stick thin models?
Madrid I think

I agree with you that attractive black women are said to have white features. Total B.S. Even Halle Berry is said to be more mainstream because she looks white. Nose job and all, she doesn’t look white or even ethnically ambiguous. Beyonce looks far more ethnically ambiguous. If a black woman’s attractiveness is based on how white she looks, shouldn’t Jennifer Beals and Lisa Bonet, both hotties, be bigger sex symbols than they are currently? Shouldn’t Tyra be considered hotter than Naomi?

Posted 02 Jul 2008 at 3:58 pm ¶
Faith wrote:

Back to the question at hand…I blame the media. Well not entirely, but I will give it top billing in the blame game. It is getting better but when does the hot Asian male lead ever get to ravage the lovely female co-star? Almost never right?! We don’t get this image and on most prime time TV programming Asian men might as well be eunuchs. White, Latin and Black males and females all get to be far more multi-faceted in TV than Asians and even worse for the Asian men. Where are the Asian male pop stars for teenage girls to cross-culturally post on their bedroom walls? Why won’t MTV put them on air? The media is perhaps most racist in their unwillingness to trust Asian imagery to sell things like movies (non martial art), music, magazines and TV advertising time. American’s sexualize their celebrities and Asian men have been locked out of this circle of cultural influence in the states. Any heterosexual woman who is honest with herself has found herself attracted physically to at least one Asian man in her lifetime…why…because heterosexual women like men. Forget the color of the flesh suit he wears hotness transcends ethnicity. Asian men are not salient and therefore women don’t think of them as often as other men who are more often saturating mass media. Hopefully media will live up to it’s liberal billing and do something about this horrible inequity…but they won’t…not for a long time to come. Hang in there Asian men, if it’s any comfort black wasn’t beautiful till the 70’s and real women didn’t have curves till the 90’s …your time is coming..keep fighting the good fight.

Posted 18 Aug 2008 at 3:57 pm ¶
peter k. marcella wrote:

here’s a good article i found on the subject:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2009/05/177_9141.html

Posted 30 May 2009 at 5:34 pm ¶
Lex wrote:

For the record, I am West Indian of Indian heritage.. and I think Asian (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, etc) men are gorgeous.

Instead of Keanu Reeves, try these actors:
Mike He Jun Xiang
Ethan Ruan
Joo Ji Hoon
Will Pan (Asian-American)
Matsumoto Jun

etc, etc, etc..

Posted 14 Jul 2009 at 11:18 pm ¶

Quoted: Jeff Yang on Interracial Dating

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