Comments

1. Jas wrote:

   Crap on Black Men Day. The never ending holiday that just keeps on giving.

   Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 10:08 am ¶

2. Jus Plain Ol Me wrote:

   “Where Have All the Good Black Men Gone?”

   Don’t they mean “Where Have All the Good Black SINGLE Men Gone?” The married ones (like myself) are probably at home with their wives and, if applicable, children. I’m sure Tyra and her viewers wouldn’t care if a ton of “good black men” showed up on their doorstep, but they were all married.

   Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 10:10 am ¶

3. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

   It’s Tyra Banks, dude. She’s an idiot and many people, including I, can’t stand her show and her self-hypocrisy. I’m disturbed that the tyra phenomenon is spreading… yuck

   Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 10:17 am ¶

4. Paul wrote:

   All the black men worth their salt would stay the Hell away from an ego-monster like Tyra. I don’t care gow good-looking and rich she is, the woman is nuttier than peanut brittle.

   Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 10:24 am ¶

5. IKnowSomething wrote:

   I agree with post #2. However, I will also go on a limb to say that there are good black men out there that get tainted by women who don’t know how to take care of their men. I have found good black men who will leave me to run back to a prior girlfriend that did them wrong who they fell in love with.

   As a black (and Cuban) woman, I will say that yes, we will be the first to point the finger at a black man and say he’s not good because it didn’t work out between us. But we need to realize that sometimes it just not meant to work out. Everything shouldn’t be based on race. Yes, you can have your preferences on what you like, but coming from someone who’s dated black, latino, and asian men, I have found that no matter the race, a man is still a man. They like what they like, they still eat, breathe, and share similar ideals.

   Instead of looking for a “good black man”, why is it that we can’t look for a “good compatible match”.

   Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 10:29 am ¶

6. uogivibssim wrote:

   I very much agree on the Tyra is an ego-monster front. She’s not intelligent or interested enough in the world to have a show that discusses issues, hence lazy, stereotypical crap like this.

   This “Where Did All The Good Black Men Go?” crap is an insult to black men, too, too, simple minded, racist assertion.

   Last year while avoiding the real of my MA dissertation I got got caught up in many arguments on IMDBs board for the film ‘Something New’, a film which has gone some way to propogate the myth of ‘disappearing balck men, as well as to act as a clarion call to black women who want to make excuses for the reasons they’ve failed to succeed in their realtionships with black men or needless justifications for dating interracially.

   My bottom line is thus: relationships can be hard - finding a good one, staying in one, making it work for you, be there for the other person, intergrating all these things into your lie. When it comes down to it it’s success and failures fall at your door. This blaming of society of mythologising are just excuses when the real problem is you.

   Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 10:39 am ¶

7. Tarah wrote:

   So much hate!

   Disagree with Tyra, but there’s most certainly no need to trash her like this.

   I would also like to meet a nice coloured/black guy, if only it were possible. But it’s not. Why? I’m not religious and most of the guys in my area are very religious.

   So I ’settle’ by dating white guys.

   Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 10:47 am ¶

8. Renee wrote:

   This conversation is not unique to Tyra. Read through a few blogs authored by black women it is a recurring theme. I posted about this not long ago. This really comes down to do women really need men? It is not so much about race. Furthermore treating black men like they are this rare commodity detracts from the fact that it is men who truly benefit from marriage in the first place. Enough!

   Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 10:49 am ¶

9. Juan wrote:

   *likely ceases to exist*

   Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 10:53 am ¶

10. Juan wrote:

    *likely ceases to exist* =p

    Gotta agree with Jas, somedays you can do no right even by just standing in one place breathing. And Jus Plain Ol Me is right in pointing out lack of distinction by adding the word ‘Single’ but even with that the faulty logic of ‘where have all the good black men gone’ still remains.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 10:57 am ¶

11. Sean wrote:

    Such extremes….

    When it isn’t “where have all the good MEN gone”, then it’s strictly “where have all the good BLACK MEN gone”. Never any in-betweens.

    But it’s long been fashionable to bash and denigrade everyones favorite ‘boogie man’ and ‘monster-under-the-bed’ …..the black man. (the Waiting To Exhale phenomenon epitomized the zeitgeist of this mindset)

    It wasn’t all that long ago when the slogan “I don’t need no man” was particularly popular among African American women. I guess times have changed since then if Tyra and her panel/audience is whining now.

    If one laments that so many black fathers are absent from their childrens lives, then one can also surmise that young black girls grow up not knowing what a good man looks like, and therefore can’t recognize one when they find one.

    We often hear of black women who are left to raise children on their own. As unfortunately true as many of these stories may be, the stories of decent black men getting rejected and shot down because they don’t make a certain amount of money, drive the right car, don’t look like rap video thugs, or are generally not ‘exiting’, are rarely told.

    Good black men (or any race of men) can be found in many places. Try a Sci-Fi or Comic Book convention. (yeah, I know… the ever unpopular ‘nerd’ ) -but it would do some women good to get out of their comfort zones.

    And the irony of a crazy woman like Tyra complaining because she can’t keep a man isn’t lost on me.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 11:18 am ¶

12. kar-leone wrote:

    The question shouldn’t be “Where Have All the Good Black Men Gone,” but “where has all the good judgement gone. Thats not just aimed at black women but ALL women. But In particular, its seems that a lot of Black women are looking for a tall, good-looking, intelligent/educated man. I feel like I meet all those criteria but they also seem to want men are are also athletes and/or rich, or have all these material things.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 11:20 am ¶

13. Jamerican Muslimah wrote:

    I saw this show and was thoroughly disappointed in myself for even watching it. I can’t get back that hour of my life…

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 11:20 am ¶

14. sylvie wrote:

    tyra’s not exactly known for spitting profound wisdom. unless you count, “kiss my fat ass!”

    there really wasn’t a reason for her to specifically put “good black men” on the endangered species list. that kind of statement assumes that a) black women are only looking to date black men and b) most black men aren’t good, especially compared to men of other races, which of course is untrue. we’ve all met skeevy men (and women) of all colors.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 11:32 am ¶

15. Brigitte wrote:

    Tyra just really really bugs me.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 11:50 am ¶

16. lemure wrote:

    This is some serious bullsh*t! I don’t understand why people can’t see through the veil of demonizing marginalized groups. Its most galling when, a member of the group just parrots back the same stereotypes used to hold their people back. Shouldn’t s/he have a more nuanced perspective? This is what you call slave mentality, and it hurts EVERY group member in the end. “Uncle Tom” is not an inappropriate epithet in this case. There is nothing wrong with addressing your community’s problems, but if the analysis can’t rise above one’s lizard brain spewing the same self hating racist/classist bile “The Man” drummed into generations, a permanent ball gag is in order. These “ladies” don’t speak for me, and hopefully not the majority of Black women (and not just Americans, what about the Caribbean and African Disapora here?). I have dated the rainbow. Men are men and there are no problems “unique” to particular races or ethnicities. Assholes can be found across the spectrum as well as gems. Shows like this are poisonous and just feed into “mainstream” America’s ignorant belief in the Black community’s hopeless infighting and moral inferiority. While I no longer give a f**k what “mainstream America thinks of me (I’ve proven plenty to myself), this inferiority complex has got to stop being handed down to future generations!

    Then again, I do expect this from Tyra. For all her success, she wears all her personal insecurities like a fur coat in August.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 11:50 am ¶

17. shah8 wrote:

    I suspect it would be fun for others to watch the reaction of black women around me…

    Sorta tall, physically strong, apparently handsome, intelligent and worldly–but hard of hearing.

    If I only had a penny for every damn thought bubble that said “If only he didn’t say “what?” so much!”, I’d be able to pay off my school debt AND get a nice car.

    As for black women who want quality black men? I think they’re out of luck. Structural racism keeps a large proportion of men either in jail, or labeled a felon, or underemployed.

    Oh, and Tarah? I find it the opposite case, that black women tend to be far too religious for my taste (not to mention that religiosity index tends to correlate with the whole “he’s a broken person” mentality towards the disabled). So how about we just agree that black religiosity has some general negatives that affects relationships on both ends.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 12:13 pm ¶

18. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Thanks for the write-up, Nadra.

    It should be noted that the men held it down pretty well. (Well, except for Finesse - then again, he needs drama to sell books, so I don’t blame him.)

    The premise of the show is fundamentally flawed as “good” is highly subjective, no matter who you are talking about. Everyone has their own ideas.

    @ Sean -

    Good black men (or any race of men) can be found in many places. Try a Sci-Fi or Comic Book convention. (yeah, I know… the ever unpopular ‘nerd’ ) -but it would do some women good to get out of their comfort zones.

    *pulls out her girl geek glasses and her Nintendo Superstar tee.*

    I’m going to have to disagree with you here Sean. There are a lot of black men to be found at comic book stores, comic/sci fi/anime conventions and gaming hangouts…but that doesn’t mean they are the type of man you are looking for.

    1. He’s a hobbyist. I can’t tell you how many of my friends have called me to bone up on some form of geekdom to try to impress some cute nerdy guy. Then she dates the nerd guy. Then she hates him!

    Why? Because nerds spend a lot of time on their hobbies. It’s all cute the first month, but after that, all I hear is “he NEVER wants to go out! Why does he sit in front of that thing for 8 hours straight? Why the hell did he just spend all his money on a bushido blade and some DVD box sets before we go on vacation?”

    2. You have to be nerd compatible with the people you date, or at least nerd complimentary. Comics nerds and game geeks aren’t always speaking the same language.

    3. Dating while nerdy is a difficult endeavor, in general. I mean, you can date but finding a long term relationship requires a lot of tolerance from a non-nerd partner. A lot of people in general find it difficult to give someone they are dating the space that they need to get things done. And considering how many people see the need to compete with gaming systems for affection, an imperfect union would be kind of disastrous.

    FWIW, I think people should find a hobby that appeals to them, a cause to volunteer for, and an interest in some kind of art. That tends to get you out of the house and into the world.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 12:15 pm ¶

19. lunanoire wrote:

    Having attended an HBCU I have met many upstanding “good black men.” As for finding someone to date, well, that’s another story.

    Why would any man settle down, regardless of race, if he is in relatively high demand and values the perks of being single over the perks of being in a committed relationship? Of course, other men w/ other values would act in accordance w/ those values.

    @ uogivibssim- Yes, we are responsible for the choices we make in life, but others also make choices that influence our lives- HR directors, potential dates, gov’t policies, economic forecasts, etc. All we can do is work on the part we can control.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 12:16 pm ¶

20. Sean wrote:

    Point noted, Latoya. A dude who plays Nintendo or X Box or whatever for 12 hours straight might not be appealing, but not all nerds are alike. LOL!

    I was just trying to throw some ideas out there because all too often, women are dissapointed that they couldn’t “find” a good man at the club.
    Maybe a book fair? Maybe join a volunteer group?

    The biggest thing is getting out of one’s comfort zone. Futility is to keep doing what one has always been doing and expecting a different result.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 12:37 pm ¶

21. Kenny wrote:

    The title itself bashes Black men( So what else is new?)The fact that a Black woman is doing it is even more disturbing and also not new.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 12:41 pm ¶

22. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    *has been known to spend up to twelve hours breaking in a new RPG.*

    Ahem.

    Yeah, so, I like how the conversations surrounding this are always so stunted. I notice it’s always on finding your dream man - not being a dream mate, or kicking the Prince Charming complex, or the nuts and bolts of making a relationship work, or how to become less boring.

    I personally would love to see a talk show trying to deprogram the messages that women get about relationships and attractiveness.

    Cosmo is the highest selling women’s magazine in the world. Have you seen their advice lately?

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 12:48 pm ¶

23. shah8 wrote:

    sexual anxieties make money.

    *psssssst*
    fashion is the root of all money

    pass it on!

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 1:14 pm ¶

24. THE OBENSON REPORT wrote:

    *SIGH* Topics like these depress me a great deal. The show subject name alone is dangerous and only continues to feed destructive societal beliefs about black people - specifically black men - and it’s unfortunate that someone like Tyra, whose audience is mostly female and vast, jumped right on the bandwagon, failing to see how she and her show are keeping destructive currents like this alive. Little black girls everywhere watching the show will grow up, carrying this myth inside of them, which will undoubtedly affect how they relate to black men and the cycle will continue. I look around me, and I see all the black women in my life - friends, family, acquaintances, co-workers, etc - mostly involved, and happily, with black men at various stages of coupling. I’ve had discussions about this topic with a lot of them in recent months, and the majority say the very same thing - essentially, “you get back what you put out.” If you enter the world with negative thoughts about yourself or about those you’re hoping to attract, then be ready for the negativity that will likely follow. Dating and relationships aren’t easy regardless of where you’re from, what color your skin is, how much education you have, or how deep your pockets are. I’ve heard similar statements from white women about white men; Latino women about Latino men; Asian women about Asian men; etc… To imply that this is a “problem” relegated solely to black people is a cause for concern and we need to get to the root of this so that we can bring an end to this debate once and for all! What exactly is a “good black man” anyway? Is there one singular, all-encompassing definition, or does it vary from woman to woman? What one woman thinks a “good black man” is may not be what another woman believes. So, whose definition are we talking about here? Does any one person or group of people have a monopoly on the definition? I’ve heard and read too many of these kinds of discussions on television, online, in print, etc, but they tend to be rather superficial. What’s REALLY going on here? Asking questions like “where have all the good black men gone” simplifies what I feel requires some in-depth analysis and discussion; and, as a black man, I find questions like that rather insulting and denigrating!

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 1:24 pm ¶

25. Monie wrote:

    For hundreds of years America has taught Black Americans two things;

    (1) Black men are no good
    (2) Black women are worthless

    For most of our history we did not believe the hype. Unfortunately now many, many of us not only believe the hype but we are the biggest cheerleaders for the message.

    Tyra Banks is simply following in Oprah’s footsteps in doing a show that allows Whites to say to themselves that Black people are exactly who we have always said they are.

    Her (Tyra’s) ratings will continue to be good as long as she sticks with this formula.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 1:34 pm ¶

26. shah8 wrote:

    Monie,

    Tyra has the platform for her rantings because it makes money for her bosses. Imaginary problems are so much easier to solve profitably with the least discomfort than real problems.

    Consumer capitalism is very much focused on creating a culture of dissatisfaction.

    Come on! It’s fucking ludicrus to pay attention to Tyra Bank’s insecurities if it bothers you because it plays into the Game. Tyra Banks too whiny? Buy Oprah! Oprah too breezy? Buy Huffington! Or just tell us who you like so we can sell Buy Person!

    Asking for something else on mass media is self-defeating, not to mention isolating. It merely means you sit around waiting for a better product, rather go out and networking, and meeting people. Not to mention getting that warped perception of the problems people face in dating.

    –> not directed at everyone in the thread

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 1:49 pm ¶

27. shah8 wrote:

    aach!

    everything starting with Come On! is a generalized comment and not directed at Monie, specifically.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 1:50 pm ¶

28. shah8 wrote:

    You know what?

    escuse me.

    My tone is definitly all wrong for this thread. Add some salt to my posts

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 1:52 pm ¶

29. Tiffany wrote:

    “but all women in every group is looking for someone better not just black women, black women are the only one’s who are willing to tell the truth ”

    Kudos to this comment, i don’t agree with the title of the show though..

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 2:32 pm ¶

30. Kaonashi wrote:

    All the good Black men are hiding from Tyra, lol.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 3:02 pm ¶

31. Afroamerica Writer wrote:

    Tyra’s answers to where to find good black men was the typical answers for places like Atlanta, Chicago, and Los Angeles. Those answers aren’t necessarily true.

    Over a year ago, South Florida Sun-Sentinel featured some single women of all ethnicities in the Sunday paper. There was one particular black woman from Boca-Raton who caught the attention of my friends and me.

    The Boca black lady relocated to Atlanta in hopes of finding her mate. After a few years living there, she was very disappointed and depressed for not finding her match.

    But what caught my attention as I told my friends, if she had to relocate to South Florida to meet eligible black men; why did she take up residence in Boca where there are only a few (more like minute) who look like her?

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 3:06 pm ¶

32. Paul wrote:

    I’m going to get a lot of grief for this, but many times women are the problem. A helluva a lot of women want some magical man who makes a good living, cares deeply about issues, is good looking, well-dressed, intelligent, funny, great at sex, does housework, likes their folks, has a friends, doesn’t spend too much time with his friends, is masculine, is sensitive, likes the things she likes, has different interests, etc..

    Perhaps these women need to select a few key things that really matter and learn to let the rest slide. Then, maybe they could actually quit minging and be happy.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 3:46 pm ¶

33. Paul wrote:

    meant whining, not minging

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 3:46 pm ¶

34. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Paul -

    The same thing can be said about men, especially those who have bought into the whole “I am a good black man and you’ll NEVER find another guy like me so you better do everything I say!” mentality.

    Or the guys with the “all women are whores, but you look kind of like a Madonna, so sit over in the corner and look pretty until I wife you” mentality.

    some magical man who makes a good living, cares deeply about issues, is good looking, well-dressed, intelligent, funny, great at sex, does housework, likes their folks, has a friends, doesn’t spend too much time with his friends, is masculine, is sensitive, likes the things she likes, has different interests, etc..

    You just described my boyfriend!

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 3:52 pm ¶

35. Kirk Van Irvin wrote:

    @ Sean : you wrote “Good black men (or any race of men) can be found in many places. Try a Sci-Fi or Comic Book convention. (yeah, I know… the ever unpopular ‘nerd’ )”

    Well said man ! well said! Hey , I like Star trek and Comics- any takers? 

    Seriously, my Sister suggested reading Waiting to Exhale, And while the women were written well- I could relate each one of the characters to black women I knew in my life, from my mother on down, but the men? WTF? -every dude except for one was a jackass! Even Gloria’s son was a punk . And Sean was right- for a long time that was the trend that Terry McMillan set up . Obviously it’s changed , based on the comments I’m reading.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 3:57 pm ¶

36. DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:

    at Kaonashi:

    All the good Black men are hiding from Tyra, lol.

    LOLLLL you’re right on that one.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 3:58 pm ¶

37. gatamala wrote:

    People really watch this show?

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 4:07 pm ¶

38. Global Man wrote:

    I find all this to be a joke really. If I were in Tyra’s audience, I would ask, “Are women holding themselves accountable for their actions on how they treat black men”? Have black women taken an introspective look at themselveson why they have a hard time finding a “Good Black Man”? Have many black women looked at themselves in the mirror and realize they hate themselves to a point of wearing weaves, wigs, perms, blue eye conrtact etc? A real good man wants to see someone in their true state and not emulating what the so called standard of beauty is (eurocentric). Tyra cetainly needs to look in the mirror that’s for sure. And most important, black women should re-evaluate their conduct on how they address black men. Maybe that’s why Good Black Men keep their distance. Humblesness, sincerity, a little demureness, and being secure with yourself would attract any man really. Nuff said!

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 4:27 pm ¶

39. Joseph wrote:

    @Latoya
    Ya know when your boyfriend reads that back it is going to look like:

    “some magical man who makes a good living, cares deeply about issues, is good looking, well-dressed, intelligent, funny, GREAT AT SEX, does housework, likes their folks, has friends, doesn’t spend too much time with his friends, is masculine, is sensitive, likes the things she likes, has different interests, etc…”

    Right?

    I once saw Tyra Banks getting out of her limo and entering an apartment building in Tribeca. The Weave-to-Head ratio was staggering. Seriously. I don’t know how she keeps herself vertical.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 4:56 pm ¶

40. marge twain wrote:

    @Paul: Seriously? those all sound like pretty reasonable attributes to look for in a mate, male or female. All could be summed up as wanting someone who’s smart, compassionate, fun, and eager to invest in the relationship. All but the money thing, and surveys have shown that men value looks in their partners in equal proportion to women desiring earning potential.

    You sound like one of those guys who got pissed when I rejected them, calling me stuck up and suggesting that I was expecting too much for any man. Well, I didn’t stop refusing to settle because I knew I had something good to offer. Those “magical” men exist. I’m married to one, together 7 years.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 5:04 pm ¶

41. marge twain wrote:

    Global Man?
    Is that the superhero who takes stereotypes to the next level?

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 5:06 pm ¶

42. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    LOL @ Marge - Perfect!

    I was waiting to see who was going to call him out.

    I especially loved this line:

    And most important, black women should re-evaluate their conduct on how they address black men.

    Why not just say “submit, you bitch!” and say what you’re really thinking.

    He reminds me of this guy I went on a date with once who kept stressing the fact that he had a MASTERS and made 30,000 a year* and since he read the ECONOMIST he was an amazing, limited time catch. After the fourth or fifth stress, I caught the meaning:

    “I’m a good black man dammit! Hand over your pussy or else!”

    I love the lower your standards guys too. No good ever comes of that - and no, we aren’t talking about financial standards, gents. The human stuff you can develop for free, like a good sense of humor and a sparkling wit.

    Congrats on seven years of marriage! Hope I get there when the time is right.

    @Joseph -

    How do you think he got me in the first place? I was dickmatized, damn it!

    Post-sex conversations about international cash flows helped too, along with a wicked sense of humor, love of learning, and his ability to let me be as nerdy as I want.

    And obviously, Tyra is using her modeling training to help balance that weave. Just like balancing a book, only with more bounce.

    *I live outside of DC. At the time, 30K was what my High School diploma having ass was making. DC is an expensive city and he wasn’t in social work. Just saying…

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 5:15 pm ¶

43. marge twain wrote:

    There are some really out of line personal attacks on Tyra and her appearance here. “Ego monster”? “Can’t stand her”?
    I watch her show sometimes and yeah, it’s frivolous but she’s taken the basic daytime format and done much to promote diversity and size acceptance issues for women.

    Re: “Kiss my FAT ASS” that came at the end of an awesome speech about how deeply damaging the celebrity tabloid fat police is to how women view themselves.
    The usual response to celebrity fat shaming is slinking away for rapid weight loss and then posing as a the triumphantly skinny/newly worthy woman on a magazine cover. So, as another woman who’s spent inordinate amounts of time loathing her body, I cheered for her.

    I wonder how many people on the attack actually saw the show? I only saw part of it(not the clip, I don’t have working audio) but I thought she was actually trying to present it as a stereotype and then bust it, showing different viewpoints. The title may have been meant more to grab ratings than really reflective of the content. I don’t feel qualified to say more on this show, not having seen the whole thing, but I have heard Tyra say that she finds it hard to meet men. She used to be married to some black football player and maybe she hopes for a guy to have her common background.

    When a show is called “Where have all the good men gone” it’s invariably going to be about white men. If she isn’t promoting the stereotype(I think Essence has that covered) it may be a good thing for her to talk about what she did.

    Tyra gets a lot of flak in the media, criticizing her for being self-absorbed. She does talk about herself during interviews, but she does so to act like the person’s best girlfriend and get them to dish the dirt. Meanwhile, Bill Maher, David Letterman talk about themselves nonstop. The only other person who gets treated this way is Oprah. To an extent it’s a legit criticism, but the degree and amount of mockery of Tyra has a lot to do with her being a black woman and there aren’t enough on television calling the shots for me to want to pull her down.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 6:04 pm ¶

44. marge twain wrote:

    @Latoya: mutual LOL! especially this:

    “He reminds me of this guy I went on a date with once who kept stressing the fact that he had a MASTERS and made 30,000 a year* and since he read the ECONOMIST he was an amazing, limited time catch. After the fourth or fifth stress, I caught the meaning:”

    [gasp] I think I went out with that guy! He sure gets around, huh?

    To clarify: I’ve been married to Mr. Marge for one year, dated for 6. But I’ll keep your congrats with fingers crossed.

    Congrats, too on what sounds like a dreamy relationship and here’s to hopeful futures!

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 6:15 pm ¶

45. eric daniels wrote:

    I’m leaving this one alone ans keeping my peace, on the issue. All I want is pop tarts and Gator- Ade and watch some Soul- Train. If Mr. Tobias white men and those “sistas” want to raise “strong black warriors” please do so lololol First Obama now Trya what a way to end a weekend.

    Black Men can’t win for losing it’s either damned you do or you don’t.

    LOLOLOLOLOL

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 6:33 pm ¶

46. Mickey wrote:

    @ LaToya

    “I’m a good black man dammit! Hand over your pussy or else!”

    DAMN!

    I believe you owe me a new keyboard. Mine has Sierra Mist all over it.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 6:58 pm ¶

47. Mike wrote:

    Maybe they should give out t-shirts with good or bad written on them to the black men that way black women will know what they are looking for.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 7:19 pm ¶

48. Kit (Keep It Trill) wrote:

    All the good black men took a temporary leave of absence so Tyra keep her ratings up.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 7:26 pm ¶

49. Black Canseco wrote:

    All the good Black men are in the NBA and the NFL. didn’t you guys get the memo?

    But seriously, where are the good White Men? You start looking at school shootings, crooked politicians, corrupt corporate folks, crooked cops, suspect Hollywood elites, somebody really ought to be asking were the good white men are.

    And for that matter:
    Where are all the Mexican Men?
    Where are all the good Chinese Men?
    Where are all the good Arab Men?

    Or better yet, as Clevon Little so boldly proclaimed…

    Where the White Women at?!

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 7:40 pm ¶

50. Black Canseco wrote:

    Make that “where are all the good mexican men?”

    Now…

    As a Black Man myself, i’ve never been “good” or “bad”- but rather it’s been a question or “real” or fake/frontin’.”

    You come up in the inner city, you do all you can to avoid prison, you make it thru crap schools, etc. and then you’re not “real”.

    You’re not stereotypical enough for anyone’s comfort level, black, white or brown. You’re not cool, or interesting enough because you’ve become a writer, grasped the english language, etc. yet your white friends/colleagues see you as “not like the rest of them” but never to the point where you’re a total equal. Your black friends see you as the exception not the rule…

    Media outlets like Tyra want the comforting, repetitive meme of Black men suck by asking “how come we can’t find any that’re up to our standards? (whatever said standards may be)”

    And to be honest, lots of folks like the paradigm. it’s what allows for “why can’t you (black men) be more like (Tiger Woods, Bill Cosby, juan williams, your favorite rapper/comedian, the black guy at work that laughs at your racist jokes, etc.)?”

    Tyra’s no better than Oprah on topics like this. She makes me miss Ricki Lake and Jerry Springer the more nonsense I see from her.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 7:52 pm ¶

51. squidfly wrote:

    I Watch Judge Judy, she calls everybody out.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 7:52 pm ¶

52. Nadra wrote:

    Eric, I’m glad you brought up Obama, too. Oh well. At least, he didn’t go completely Bill Cosby on us. Anyway, I would like to hear your thoughts on this, Eric.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 8:05 pm ¶

53. octogalore wrote:

    Marge and Latoya, I’ll third the conclusion that Paul’s “magical man” list is pretty reasonable.

    Your husband and BF respectively are lucky guys indeed.

    I am married (5 yrs) to a white compilation of Paul’s factors, and have dated black, asian and latino guys who fit that description as well. They’re out there. Why should we settle?

    I’m always a bit suspect of men who tell women to “quit whining.” It suggests that women in his life have not been happy in their relationships with him, which in turn suggests that he was likely a key factor in why not.

    The comment from Huney broke my heart too.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 8:13 pm ¶

54. A. wrote:

    Where are the good men at?

    I don’t know. I can’t answer that question. But I have a good nerdy man!

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 9:19 pm ¶

55. thesciencegirl wrote:

    Tyra has a habit of “tackling” issues of race and then covering them at such a superficial level. It’s pretty frustrating to watch, but I think she’s probably addressing the level of the average American.

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 9:39 pm ¶

56. The Sauda Voice wrote:

    I saw the episode and while it wasn’t “hard hitting,” I applaud Tyra for opening up the dialogue in general. Now, she did have some “characters” on there saying the typical BS. But all in all, it was an OK show and one I appreciated watching as a black woman. I agree that our brothas do catch a lotta s&*! But, we sistahs often have our realities ignored altogether so its nice to have our issues (positive or negative) being addressed and discussed (by us).

    The Sauda Voice
    http://www.thesaudavoice.com

    Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 11:27 pm ¶

57. china blue wrote:

    “A helluva a lot of women want some magical man who makes a good living, cares deeply about issues, is good looking, well-dressed, intelligent, funny, great at sex, does housework, likes their folks, has a friends, doesn’t spend too much time with his friends, is masculine, is sensitive, likes the things she likes, has different interests, etc..”

    Shocking, isn’t it, that women generally want a man who meets the most basic of standards. Well, I’ll remember that when I start dating again: ‘Seeking man, any man, with a pulse. Major personality flaws and general inadequacy not an issue.’

    I’ve noticed that the men on these types of threads immediately say, ‘why doesn’t the woman look at herself, and ask why she’s alienating the Good Man she wants to find?’ Why is it solely the woman’s fault?

    Guys, it’s crazy I know, but can you countenance the idea that maybe YOU are doing something wrong here, too?

    I don’t have the answers, but some introspection - on both sides - can only be helpful.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 7:42 am ¶

58. kar-leone wrote:

    @All the women. The fact is that many woman want a man who is a little to close to ideal and makes virtually no mistakes and accepts all of thier flaws. But they aren’t willing to accept to same flaws from a man. As far as what Paul said, I’m sure since you are with someone that they are all of those things to you. That’s usually what couples in love have. The problem isn’t so much the traits on Paul’s list, but how reasonable a women’s expectations of each of the individuals attributes are (and whether they’re willing to take time to get to feel them out). Are they expecting just good looking or Denzel Washington; are they expecting nice-dressed or a Super Model, etc.?

    But I think my man was sepaking about certain women who are looking and just that LOOKING. They aren’t really getting to know someone who doesn’t, at least right off the bat mesh with the “ideal mate” they have in their mind.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 8:11 am ¶

59. Yvette wrote:

    I’ve been married to my (good) Black man for almost 15 years. Several of our friends our age have been married for 10, 15, and one couple for 25 years. One day it occurred to me that we spend most of our time around each other. In other words, the way friendships work, most of us do not have very many single friends, newer-married couple friends, or younger friends. I think this is the case for many long-married couples. Maybe as a result single/younger folks are not spending time with the role models that would help them see what a “good” man, woman, and relationship are all about.

    But I’m afraid most of you wouldn’t be much interested. Cuz it’s not very exciting or sexy or dramatic. Think about all the boy-meets-girl (or boy-meets-boy or girl-meets-girl) movies you’ve ever seen. My story would be what happens hours after the final credits roll. There is a reason, I guess, why no one makes those films.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 9:06 am ¶

60. Ron wrote:

    Where are all the good black men?

    That is something you cannot control. Focus on yourselves and a good black man will scoop you up in a minute.

    I know married women who if they were divorced tommorrow would get 10 marriage proposals from good black men because they have it like that.

    These women light up rooms they come into. Men notice them immediately because they are approachable and just plain magnetic.

    Worry about the things you can control. You can control who you are but not what black men are in your minds.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 9:29 am ¶

61. Jas wrote:

    “Guys, it’s crazy I know, but can you countenance the idea that maybe YOU are doing something wrong here, too?”

    Believe when it comes to black males there is always someone willing to vocally or publically state what is wrong with you especially when it comes to the opposite sex. Whether it’s white people, black women, or even black men you’re always under attack.

    So while I do feel that there’s nothing wrong with discussing what’s wrong with some men I really don’t see anything wrong with men asking some women to look in the mirror.

    I’m no doubt biased but to me the introspection of what baggage both genders bring to the table doesn’t really seem as two sided to me as many people like to make it out to be.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 11:14 am ¶

62. say whaaat? wrote:

    i find it odd that no-one has talked about the adjective “good,” and what it means.

    1. the very term “good black man” insinuates that the vast majority must be “bad black men”.

    2. Subjectively defined, “good” and “bad” do not mean anything concrete in this case, and are blank words that allow anyone to project their own stereotypes/schemas/experiences into their meanings/interpretations of the word. This means that two people can be having a conversation about a “good” thing, and both can be talking about different concepts without knowing it.

    3. Objectively defined, in the whole “good black men” conversation, black men are being implicitly compared to other men of other races, judged in terms of certain markers of worldly success, attitude, physical appearance, career, character, etc. This is a conscious process based on unconscious priming (conditioning) from decades (centuries?) of white oppression which led to a certain white aesthetic in fashion media, hollywood, television, etc. WE HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED WITH IT ALL OUR LIVES. In general, a certain white male standard (which white guys can’t fully embody either by the way) has been inserted into the african-american mind as the pinnacle of “beinghood.” This unconscious standard also applies to the idea of “good hair” (blond,straight) and “bad hair” (black,curly). This is DEEP mental conditioning which (unfortunately) may never fully be removed.

    4. Tyra (obviously) has her own conditioning issues as a black female in the white fashion world, as seen every day on her programs. She has made her living by conforming to a certain aesthetic and attitude which was required of her to succeed in her field. I am not criticizing her for this, as many people have succeeded using that strategy. However, this must be taken into account.

    5. The angler’s complaint: “where did all the good fish go?” Fishing is as complicated as people. Luck, patience, bait, the reel, the weather…many things take part in a fish being caught. Complaining about how there appear to be no fish to catch doesn’t put one on your hook, and it doesn’t tell you where they are. In fact, you might be driving away all the juicy fish with all that noise. :p

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 11:49 am ¶

63. Big Man wrote:

    I thought Paul made some good points. I think everybody should have core values they are looking for in a mate, but if your list of characteristics is 20 items deep then you might be setting yourself up for failure.

    And, it’s cool if some women say that they held out until they found the man, but I”m not sure how reasonable that is for everyone. When I picked my wife I didn’t have a long list of guidelines she had to meet. I’ve found that women spend a lot more time thinking about exactly what they want in a man, which can make it much more difficult for them to find somebody acceptable.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 12:32 pm ¶

64. lunanoire wrote:

    Yvette, in this day and age you and your friends have something special. It would be great if you discussed this with your other married-for-many-years friends and when you have the time, ability, and inclinaiton, reach out to younger couples and/or singles. Many of us younger people do not have any models of what a healthy relationship looks like. I feel this way even though my parents have been married 31 years- if being married means being berated on a regular basis, no thanks.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 12:32 pm ¶

65. marge twain wrote:

    @say whaaat?: From an asian-am. perspective, I think that in the context of black women who already do desire a black man, it means just what it means when women of other races say”I need to meet a good man” “I wish I could meet a good Indian guy” It’s usually said reactively, after a disappointing date or after seeing our co-worker get a flower delivery, stuff like that.

    We all want a compatible(different things to different people) guy but sometimes with the caveat that he be same-race. I heard one of my friends make the “good black man” comment as we were walking down the street and some asshole was hollering at us from the other side. She said “Not like him”

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 2:13 pm ¶

66. Jandi wrote:

    lololol….I see Tyra continues to be a narcissistic idiot. Even if all good Black men had disappeared off the surface of this earth what will Tyra’s silly little discussion do to change that…I mean the premise of this show could very well be legitimate (see the oft quoted disparity in marriage rates) but thinking Tyra would do such a complex topic any justice is like trusting George Bush with the American presidency…

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 2:23 pm ¶

67. squidfly wrote:

    I’m waiting for the talk show that promotes the male POV.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 2:25 pm ¶

68. erin wrote:

    I was happy to see this topic. I am a single black woman and I want to be in a good relationship with a decent guy. Its very hard to find a nice guy period reguardless of race.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 2:30 pm ¶

69. summer wrote:

    Focus on yourselves and a good black man will scoop you up in a minute.

    *blank stare*

    *blinks*

    what kind of chauvinistic-sounding rhetoric is this mess?

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 2:46 pm ¶

70. G.K. wrote:

    I saw and taped that show about a week and a half ago, and I didn’t find it to be as silly,ignorant and nonsensical as a lot of posters are making it out to be. Basically the men spoke for themselves, and there was some interesting discussion from both men and women about the topic. I’ll have to watch it again to get a full handle on how the subject wa treated.

    @Squidfly
    Tyra did,in fact, have a show on about a month ago, I think, which was exclusively devoted to just that—the male point of view–virtually all the guests were men who spoke frankly to the women in the audience about things like why men cheat, how to tell if a man’s really into you, and why men do certain things that women just can’t get. Being a woman myself, I found it pretty hilarious and thought-provoking to some extent.

    Also, a lot of folks on here have bashed Tyra,and that’s their prerogative, but she’s not the first talk show host to cover this subject, and of course she could only delve so much into the subject given the time constraints of T.V. She’s done more shows on other serious topics. I think it’s cool that she told the media to “kiss her fat ass”, despite the fact she is not even near what any normal person would call fat–she’s just gotten some meat on her bones. I mean, she’s not a teenager or a model anymore—why the hell should she have stayed 115 pounds sopping wet anyway? Plus, she got’s 2 popular sucessful shows on T.V.—something even the haters can’t take from her. I don’t get the bashing sometimes—I could understand if she had a strong rep for being a bitch or something, but it’s not even that—I still like her show,though.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 4:10 pm ¶

71. MoeHailstone wrote:

    If you have to ask the question pay close attention to all opinions both good and bad

    The number one issue here is why is it that women ask the question yet make sure they shoot down as many male responses that don’ t paint them in a positive light. To highlight some black women’s poor choices (thug / street demographic, the superficial and overly material, etc. is healthy if you’re truly looking for the answer. One of the guy’s had stated that women should get out of their comfort zones and thats the truth. There are alot of brothas that have “other cultural” hobbies and past times that alot of sistas say “Thats what white people do / like” which narrows the field of vision of how she sees the world. Many brothas get turned off by that mentality. That there is more to us black men than the quintessential stereotypical lifestyles and “black” societal norms that we’re “supposed”Just tryin’ to be constructive with it and it needs to be said…

    The title premise isnt’ the number one issue because its meant to be women talking to women as though no one else is around. Similar to some hip hop about fellas’ talkin’ with the fellas’….Quit cryin’ about it. However it wasn’t meant to be rhetorical. If you don’t want others to comment you keep the convo out of earshot of others.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 4:23 pm ¶

72. Global Man wrote:

    Marge, LaToya, you just proven my point..lol Every time some man call you on your empty corny one liners, you cannot acknowledge the fact that maybe some of you are the cause of it. Again, accountability! I think many of us men realize that some dudes created this BS, yes,however, just because some of you made bad choices in choosing pimps, hustlers, video thugs doesn’t give you a free pass to cry foul and act like a victim all the time. I find it amusing that most of you lack humbleness, sincerity, and personal fortitude enough in taking an introspective look at yourselves. Maybe some of you like for men to act like curious George to get your attention, but I’m certainly not one of them. And yes, I am a superhero letting you know to look at yourselves in the mirror and realize no real man wants a woman who hides behind her true state trying to emulate a women you say black men are chasing..lol Example… hair issues like wigs, weaves, horsehair, blue contacts, etc. Too many internal issues you need to address and no man will do that for you. Real brothers want real black women who are comfortable with themselves. Plus, 70% obesity rate among black women doesn’t help your cause either although it does affect every community. And just because a Black Man loves women of all colors doesn’t mean he despises you. Maybe some of you need to get over that 200 year slave issue. It’s dead and Black men are going to do what they want to do so stop using us as an excuse for your internal insecurities that we can’t fix. So Marge and LaToya, come up with some original material so we can have a real dialogue.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 4:27 pm ¶

73. MoeHailstone wrote:

    GLOBAL MAN AMEN!!!!!!!! Wish I was that eloquent…lol

    Dude said earlier “Are women holding themselves accountable for their actions on how they treat black men”?

    Then further asked and stated “And most important, black women should re-evaluate their conduct on how they address black men. Maybe that’s why Good Black Men keep their distance. Humblesness, sincerity, a little demureness, and being secure with yourself would attract any man.”

    Wise words being spoken…Go ‘head Global!!! Go ‘Head!!

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 4:47 pm ¶

74. MoeHailstone wrote:

    Marge Twain…you being married 7 yrs exempts you from this discussion…period. Thats like me being black lending my arguments on the virtues of whites tanning. Disjointed and doesn’t hold serious water

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 4:52 pm ¶

75. Ron wrote:

    Summer -

    Explain why my statement is rhetoric - and chauvinistic?

    Good men will usually find good women. Bad men find bad women.

    Although we need to define: what a good black man is to you or to the average black woman.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 4:52 pm ¶

76. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @MoeHailstone -

    Marge is married for one, dating for six.

    @MoeHailstone & Globalman -

    Perhaps you all are unfamiliar with the kind of site this is. We do not agree with Tyra’s opinions, as we believe that “the missing black men epidemic” is overblown, overstated, and often mined for ratings or political gain.

    It’s a tired topic, being rehashed yet again, and some of our readers were astute enough to send it to us.

    The men and women on this site are tired of the same conversation when it comes to black dating. So we don’t have those discussions. However, you two should probably hit up BET, BlackPlanet, Essence, The Tyra Show website or any other place where black dating is discussed and throw out advice about what women “need” to do.

    We’ve all made it clear, we’re fine.

    See Black Canseco’s comment on how a member of our community does a good job at critiquing the message presented.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:00 pm ¶

77. Clnmike wrote:

    Funny how when a woman complains about what is lacking in black men it is black men’s percieved short comings that are at fault but when a black man complains about a black women it’s still his short comings.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:02 pm ¶

78. Clnmike wrote:

    MoeHailstone
    Lol

    “It’s a tired topic, being rehashed yet again, and some of our readers were astute enough to send it to us.”

    Really?

    Did not stop this site from posting it or the other favorite subject of IR dating.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:07 pm ¶

79. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @clnmike -

    1. Yup, we posted on it. Once we do it, people stop sending tips in. Here is some other shit I am tired of covering but keep doing it anyway: election foolishness, the Real World and all over MTV reality shows, other blog drama.

    2. IR Dating series was conceived when people started making really bigoted notions about multiracial identity and interracial dating. As I said before, we are seeking to have different conversations about topics that are often discussed. Oftentimes conversation leads to understanding…unless those who are involved are so convinced they are right that they have nothing to add to the conversation, and are booted from blog.

    Hope that answers any lingering questions.

    And now, my banning finger is itchy.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:12 pm ¶

80. whatever15 wrote:

    “Good men will usually find good women. Bad men find bad women”

    Sigh, in a perfect world…

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:25 pm ¶

81. MoeHailstone wrote:

    No Mike that wasn’t me that said that. LaToya I don’t care about Marge’s length of marriage and what is with the condescending tone?? I was responding to what was being more commonly talked about within this thread. The gender fire spewing superceded Tyra’s show topic by about the 10th post so thats why i spoke on it.

    I answer how I feel like answering if you like Canseco’s response better so be it. However one of the message was “getting out of your comfort zones” so maybe you should be willing to hear more than one perspective on more than one subject. Just maybe

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:25 pm ¶

82. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    And I can also ban you if I feel like banning you!

    I already dropped six people today, you feel like being lucky number seven?

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:28 pm ¶

83. MoeHailstone wrote:

    So you’d ban me for speaking my mind and asking questions? Thought that was why we communicated our thoughts to provoke conversation. Just tell me now that its only about cow towing to you and I’ll never post again if thats the case. Good black men don’t live their lives scared to speak…

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:32 pm ¶

84. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    I don’t ban people for speaking their mind.

    I ban them for being jerks about it.

    I ban them for boring the hell out of me and not adding to the conversation.

    But if you didn’t post again I wouldn’t be sorry.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:35 pm ¶

85. MoeHailstone wrote:

    C’mon LaToya I expect a little more from you.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:37 pm ¶

86. Mike wrote:

    “Good black men don’t live their lives scared to speak…”

    Ditto

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 5:53 pm ¶

87. say whaaat? wrote:

    marge twain said:
    “From an asian-am. perspective, I think that in the context of black women who already do desire a black man, it means just what it means when women of other races say ‘I need to meet a good man’.”

    I hear what you are saying, Marge, but i have to disagree with you on that. When someone says “i need to find a good man,” already that statement is taking on a lot of implicit meanings that are unspoken. When you add “black” between “good” and “man,” it becomes entangled in the racial hierarchy established from slavery to this day. After all, a “good black man” used to refer to “a healthy, hardworking, and obedient slave.”

    the term “good man” has already within it tones of “provider” and “powerful” and “successful” without explicitly saying so, so I believe that the whole issue of “good black men” comes from the IMPLIED stereotype that black men are generally worthless, and that only an elite few are worth tolerating in a relationship.

    From Bill Cosby to Tyra, from the evening news to BET, from the movie “300″ to the very history books we read in school, the message is the same:

    “Black men are worthless, deviant, weak, disobedient, disorderly, abusive, drug-addicted, stupid, dangerous animals who are only good at crime, sex, parties, and manual labor.”

    I mean, just look at the trailer for the upcoming movie Hancock about a lazy drunk black superhero. Finally, a black superhero that isn’t a vampire or a demon, but…oh, wait…he’s LAZY and DRUNK. Is Colt45 his kryptonite?

    In that context, I am concerned that the statement “a good *class/race/religion* wo/man” AUTOMATICALLY compares against a perceived standard set by the class/race/religion which has the most control/power in the society or subgroup.

    However, that dynamic is only possible because the term “good” here is so VAGUE and subjective that it can mean anything, and therefore is meaningless. If one were to say “i need to find a rich man,” that statement is meaningful and specific. How about “i need to find a woman who knows Ghanaian history”, it is clear what criteria a person desires in a woman.

    But, if I said “I need to find a good ____”, what does the word “good” refer to specifically here?

    Think of a few words that could substitute for good for a moment and hold them in mind (or write it down). Good.

    Now, fill in these words in the blank, applying your idea of “good” to them.

    tire
    friend
    bird
    pothead
    book
    criminal
    ham
    citizen
    sponge
    Tajikistani
    enemy
    weapon
    policeman
    toilet

    You will find that the MEANING of “good” that you originally thought of has no relevance to any of these other objects. That is important for this discussion.

    Now, look again at “I need a good black wo/man.”

    does it really mean anything at all? I would argue that it doesn’t, because it is vague enough that we can all substitute our own meanings onto it.

    So, what I hear a woman say instead of “good black man” is:

    “i need to find a rich, church-going, ultra-verile, hard-working, college graduate who looks as European as possible without actually being white, and will treat me like I see women being treated in fantastical romantic movies (which are designed to make me feel unsatisfied with myself and my mate), and can win me a slice of white privilege because of his education and the money he makes.” That is what I hear, but that is NOT what each woman is really saying, now is it?

    For those who disagree, why not describe EXACTLY what the definition is?

    What are the traits of a good black wo/man?
    What are the traits of a good white wo/man?
    What are the traits of a good asian wo/man?

    a good Kenyan wo/man?
    a good Protestant wo/man?
    a good homosexual wo/man?

    I guarantee there’s no general standard for any of them because while there are a thousand ways to be labeled, there are ten million more ways to be.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 6:45 pm ¶

88. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Moe -

    *sigh*

    Ok. I stepped away from my PC a while, and I’m calmer now.

    I am disappointed with some of the tracks of conversation, as it took me about a year to post anything related to black dating at all, for the same reason that Carmen doesn’t post much about Asian American dating - the conversation gets hostile, really quickly. However, this isn’t the same blog it was a year or so ago, so I shouldn’t have jumped the gun so quickly.

    I will apologize. A lot of my anger was not necessarily directed at you, but at the two white supremacists I had to boot this morning (one who kept sending emails to me and posting comments that went to Spam, so I still saw them) and Yam Yam.

    So, it was unfair to take it out on you. There was just a lot of built up comment frustration.

    (I still think you’re wrong though, but I guess we can have that discussion on Thursday, when I post more from Joan Morgan on Strong Black Women and Endangered Black Men. The subtitle is: This is Not a Love Story.)

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 6:58 pm ¶

89. say whaaat? wrote:

    any thoughts? anyone? or am i the walrus over here?

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 7:16 pm ¶

90. Mike wrote:

    “Finally, a black superhero that isn’t a vampire or a demon, but…oh, wait…he’s LAZY and DRUNK. Is Colt45 his kryptonite?”

    Dang, I did not even see that. Im slipping.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 7:18 pm ¶

91. eric daniels wrote:

    Nadra, my opinion on Obama’s Father’s Day speech was a st8 hustle designed to convince white conservatives and feminists that he will “stand up to the niggers” I saw no concrete ideals as to how to attack the problem like he does when talking to other groups except he stole bits and pieces from Chris Rock’s “Bring the Pain” special and to me it was more of Cosby- lite than anything of intellectual substance. He treats A.A. like total trash and gives us no respect and we don’t challenge Obama or ask simple questions on what would he do if he were POTUS would he advocate…

    1. Enforcement of child support laws (which is the biggest problem in this country)

    2. Set up an infastructure that which will advocate for children and their parents

    3. DNA services to identify paternity

    4. Parenting lessons for single mothers and fathers

    5. Pentalies for lying about paternity

    6. Sexual Education for kids and teenagers

    7. Counseling by trained professionals to deal with the mental problems of why young women want babies before their time

    8. Why do men and boys feel the need not to take care of their offspring and what can we do to change these perceptions

    If he advocated those things Sunday I might have gotten on board and looked at him seriously, but Obama shows once again he is a hustler with nothing but personal ambition and in the end he is all style and no substance. He did for poltical reasons.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 7:36 pm ¶

92. Global Man wrote:

    Say What….I’m very impressed with breaking down these issues in plain, simple, and honest language that calls for dialogue and the term “Good Black Man” needs to just go away period! Black men all over the world is so diverse in language, culture, upbringing, etc. So you black women have a variety of choices in choosing the so-called good black men.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 8:41 pm ¶

93. shah8 wrote:

    Well, I’m all up for a conversation about Michael Bendis. Or BSG, or how about the latest fantasy game?

    I’d especially like another comics thread. I really enjoyed the last one with Mystic.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 8:43 pm ¶

94. Alexandra wrote:

    And yes, I am a superhero letting you know to look at yourselves in the mirror and realize no real man wants a woman who hides behind her true state trying to emulate a women you say black men are chasing..lol Example… hair issues like wigs, weaves, horsehair, blue contacts, etc. Too many internal issues you need to address and no man will do that for you. Real brothers want real black women who are comfortable with themselves.

    @Global Man
    I am so sick and tired hearing this. Whether I relax my hair or not does determine if I am real black woman. I am not trying to emulate women with straight hair. And if woman wants to put blue contacts in or dye her hair blonde that’s her business. Nobody makes a big stink when a white women or anyone else for matter has weave, dyes her hair, or puts in contacts. That being said no one should get flak for wearing their natural. How you choose to wear your hair should not determine “how black you are.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 8:45 pm ¶

95. shah8 wrote:

    More ontopic-wise, we need a more general use version of Godwin’s Law, for the general increase in informational entropy along the time axis of a thread’s existence…

    Some shamefull shit…

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 8:51 pm ¶

96. Global Man wrote:

    Alexandra, that’s the problem. “If white women can do it, why can’t we”? Typical. Be a leader and not a follower!! Damn it! If white women can be the first to get married under water, why can’t we? Difference is Black women use bio hazards on their hair starting usually at the age of 5 and by the time they are 20, baldness occurs. At what price? To emulate someone else you actually envy and cannot stand. When I see a black woman bleaching, perming, etc. That tells me you are hiding who you really are. Period! Be a leader and not a follower like Tyra “Horsehair” Banks. And yes, being black is being comfortable with the self which starts internally.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 9:44 pm ¶

97. summer wrote:

    @Ron

    Your statement places women in such a passive, almost damsel-in-distress-like, position - get yourselves together so somebody will want you, then sit down and wait til he comes to get you.

    maybe that’s not how you meant it, but that’s how it comes across to me everytime i read it.

    my isht is together and stays together–because that’s just how i roll. now, if ol’ boy’s isht is together as well, then maybe we can kick it. but i’m not improving myself to sit with my fingers crossed hoping i, too, can be “scooped up.”

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 10:41 pm ¶

98. Alexandra wrote:

    @Global Man
    I’m not balding and my hair has been relaxed since I was 12. Since when do you get to determine whose is black or not or if they have internal issues. This is not about oh white woman do it so let me just copy it is about having to the choice to wear your way you want and not live by someone else’s standards. I like having the choice to wear my hair If and when I choose to wear my hair naturally I will do for me not because it will make me blacker but because I want to do it for me not for anyone else. I will not let anyone determine how black I am by one physical feature such as hair. So I guess we are going have agree to disagree
    In regards to the whole Tyra Banks show I saw parts of it and thought it was trite and annoying. The only thing I liked were the so called “good black” men she had on her panel because they were really cute and interesting. Other than that it was same old stereotypical stuff that demonizes black men. Also my apologies if this is derailing to the conversation.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 11:22 pm ¶

99. Alexandra wrote:

    Sorry that should have been
    “women” and I like having the choice to wear my naturally or relaxed. My editing skills are not with me today.

    Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 11:45 pm ¶

100. aquarianbrass wrote:

     I just want to commend Say Whaat? on a strikingly astute, insightful and dare I say wise post about the phrase “Good black man”.
     While I’m sure there exist divergent views on what this exactly describes among the black female population, I’m guessing that there are some reoccuring images and ideas that float around this phrase.

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 12:40 am ¶

101. SolShine7 wrote:

     Tyra’s panelists may not be as well rounded as I would like them to be but I appreciate what she’s trying to do with her talk show.

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 3:14 am ¶

102. hypnoant wrote:

     It’s pretty interesting that there is such a debate about the qualities of a “good man” or “good black man”. We know what good is, we’re talking about a good “husband and provider” , and we shouldn’t get them twisted. One of these is influenced by your bank account and upward mobility.

     Also, the very question is insulting to someone who came out of chicago, put himself through expensive (not nec. worth it) college and now had a pretty successful job/career. It implies that most men are “bad”. Most people we meet we wont work with in a relationship.

     I’m light skinned and ive had women tell me i’m not dark enough…

     ok, well, maybe then I’m a good “tan man”.

     this conversation itself, I feel, is damaging…

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 9:33 am ¶

103. Ron wrote:

     Summer -

     Thanks. I appreciate the criticism of my writing. I know that I can improve catering to an audience better.

     Yes, my statement could be considered sexist or chauvinistic. I will definitely continue to work on not being lazy with my writing. Although, I admit I am a bit chauvinistic. I am still working on that.

     However, the statement actually comes from a black woman I was talking to the other day. I also know that women can be chauvinistic as well but I do not think that was her actual intent when she made the statement.

     To paraphrase - she said because of her spirit and approachability she would never have a problem finding a good black man.

     I had to agree with her because it is pretty obvious by the way she carries herself. Some women have that aura about themselves that are just very desirable particularly to good men. This woman is currently married to a minister and they have a loving relaltionship from what I can see.

     We have been discussing this tired issue since the 1980’s. I assume will be discussing this same issue in 2020 as well.

     My opinions really have not changed that much but the basis and reasons behind the difficulties black women encounter have become more nuanced and subtle.

     I am fortunate to be in a loving relationship with my wife of 14 years. I found the love of my life and truly want to see others happy as well.

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 9:55 am ¶

104. summer wrote:

     Hi Ron,

     Thanks for responding. I, too, am sick and tired of this argument. I don’t buy into it, either. I believe that, in general, you get back what you put out.

     and wow, kudos on admitting to your chauvinism.

     It was probably the “scoop you up” part that riled me. Other than that, we’re here holds two fingers to eyes

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 11:15 am ¶

105. Gemini72 wrote:

     Eric, I agree with you 100%. The black absentee father is not merely a black man thing. All of your suggestions are the very same ones I have brought up. Obama is doing what every black preacher does on father day, pondering to a large female congregation.

     The absentee father is the black community is a complex one. A lot of these young black men are becoming fathers to children by more than one girl. My young cousin at the age of 2o is the father of a newborn and a 2year old. Both girls knew he is a high school dropout with a criminal record(mind you one of them was in a freshman in college) and still had his child. They even knew about each other, but seem to be on a race to be his baby mama. I can’t fathom why the girl in college would have his baby knowing he wasn’t doing anything for the first one.

     Obama was just giving the white folks what they wanted to hear, because they have branded him a liberal socialist.

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 12:20 pm ¶

106. lunanoire wrote:

     Ron,

     How does your friend balance approachability with dealing w/ (possibly dangerous) men catcalling on the street? Does she drive? Does she know self-defense? Does she carry mace or a weapon? Is she usually not walking alone b/c she has some type of escort? Is her demeanor such that she doesn’t have to deal w/ catcalling on the street? I am introspective to a fault, but feel at a loss as to how to negotiate this dichotomy.

     Moehailstone, I am one of those black ppl w/ interests that aren’t “culturally black.” When I attend a not-culturally-black event, nobody approaches me and the coupled blacks I see are usually men in IR. When I approach a man (in general) he only wants sex. I feel trapped between being always alone or just w / someone as FWB. Advice?

     Generally speaking, articles and studies often say that women are pickier than men when it comes to choosing a partner.

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 1:11 pm ¶

107. Yvette wrote:

     Obama was just giving the white folks what they wanted to hear, because they have branded him a liberal socialist.

     Not to be off-topic, but I have a different take on the “Fathers’ Day speech.” It perfectly conveyed three of the main talking points for the Obama candidacy: excellence, empathy and hope. (These are the three things that–at least in the written text of the speech–he says good fathers need to provide and model for their children.) I find it interesting that so many claim these are “conservative” talking points. Quite the contrary, using the frmae of “Nation as Family” (see the Rockridge Institute) they embody perfectly the difference between the GOP “Strict Father” narrative and the Dem “Nurturant Father/Parent.” He then even pulled it back to the idea that this is what we want, expect and receive from a capital-F father (as in “who art in heaven…”)–even more effective given the context in which he was speaking.

     The rhetorical trick of the speech was that if you agree that this is what “good fathers” should be doing, then how can you deny that this is what the nation should be about? (Not the strict, my-way-or-the-highway “fatherhood of the Republican party.) The racial element, though it has sparked a good deal of controversy with many African AMericans, cements this even more. Whites who already think this is not what some/many/any Black fathers do, must in contrast see that they, themselves *are* like this… If they can buy into the idea that they embody these values (even if this perception is faulty), then it is a smaller leap to see that this is how the Nation must lead.. And so on.

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 2:03 pm ¶

108. Ron wrote:

     I have known her since law school and recently reconnected with her professionally. She just has always seem like such a pleasant and compassionate person when she could have been stuck up.

     I have another friend who is the same way. She has mastered navigating the streets where the catcalling occurs. Just take it in stride and do not take it personally.

     I say you must always keep your guard up in the streets. Good men will find a decent and respectful way to approach you in the street.

     A good man should always be sensitive to your concern for safety in the streets and will not be offended by you having your guard up.

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 2:20 pm ¶

109. bdsista wrote:

     LaToya does your boyfriend have a brother? clone? I like star trek and comics too! Don’t knock Waiting to Exhale, I went though that whole scene with at the convention (same convention btw) and got played the same way. I was younger, but it hurt like it was yesterday and that’s why I ignore my Mother who keeps wanting me to go to these National Black (pick a profession, Bar, MEdical, Engineering, etc) conventions so I can meet a husband. These guys PLAN on playing at conventions. Unless you go to the functions and play hard to get and then here we go, we are playing games to catch a man-real good way to start a relationship!
     But the section saying
     some magical man who makes a good living, cares deeply about issues, is good looking, well-dressed, intelligent, funny, great at sex, does housework, likes their folks, has a friends, doesn’t spend too much time with his friends, is masculine, is sensitive, likes the things she likes, has different interests, etc..

     That’s my Dad, who is my role model and being furreal, is much harder on the dudes who roll through my door than I. I don’t think that’s unrealistic. Tall and rich might be, so pick one or wait a long damn time, but I expect the same out of a potential mate that I expect out of myself. I am tired of the glass half full, I want it all the way full.
     What’s wrong with weaves? wore em for years to grow my hair out and wear wigs now. Men like em, I have YET to meet a BM to told me they preferred the DC helmet head hairstyle as opposed to the flow. Even when I see sistas with locs or dreads they grow em long! Hypnoant, you sound like a “fine” brother to me, so don’t let the stupids get you down. I’m only mad I can’t see a pic. Your hair does not determine your Blackness (see earlier posts on this site) its what under the hair that’s important. I don’t see any sisters with close cropped fros on any music videos. I like Tyra and have lowered my expectations so the shallowness does not bother me as much. Glad for you marge and Latoya, I’m in the hunt for Husband #2! Any o y’all down?

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 5:27 pm ¶

110. kerrita k. wrote:

     which is bizarre - but the very tolerance of this (crap) tired trope valorizes ( my word of the day) the perception of the unavailability of “good black men”.

     did anyone hear the michael baisden show on radio one where he brought up the question of why this conversation is absent from the white, asian or latino community of women? (his terms) and why?

     on the show - ignorance personified - he also negated the voices of women who called themselves blasian - or multi-/bi-racial…

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 5:38 pm ¶

111. A. wrote:

     “Difference is Black women use bio hazards on their hair starting usually at the age of 5 and by the time they are 20, baldness occurs.”

     Because obviously wearing your hair natural makes you so much more black, and wearing your hair natural is always so much easier on your hair than getting it permed, right?

     For you not to be a woman, you sure know how to tell black women to run their own lives.

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 5:43 pm ¶

112. kerrita k. wrote:

     on the link between hair and blackness. (and tracking back to prior conversations/topics about interracial dating…and presumptions of black womanhood…) i noticed two things since i went back to my short curly natural:
     1. that many whites assume that i don’t date ‘out’ because i am a “strong black woman”. and
     2. that i get a lot more “angry black women” comments/accusations after my class presentations.

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 6:46 pm ¶

113. Alexandra wrote:

     @kerrita
     It seems you can’t win, however you wear your hair. Either you are a militant or you are denying a part of yourself, why can’t people accept that it is a personal choice and is what you feel comfortable with.

     Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 10:42 pm ¶

114. Goofs wrote:

     I think there is a small bright side to this message that at least black women *want* black men. Maybe Asian women can take a lesson or three from black women.

     Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 5:08 am ¶

115. Global Man of Color wrote:

     I say what I say because every day, I see that same old tired straight permed, weaved look that very unappealing. Yes, I like natural looking Black women but unfortunately, I don’t see many so maybe that’s one of several reasons why I don’t date. I have a daughter, and I’ll never put a burning hot comb or relaxer on my kids head. For what????? Many men I talked to feel the same way I feel. I’m not telling you all how to run your life, but stop trying to emulate white women and be you natural kinky headed selves. Damn!

     Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 5:02 pm ¶

116. A. wrote:

     Global Man of color, screw you.

     Seriously, you’re saying (and all in the same sentence at that) -

     “I’m not telling you all how to run your life…”

     and then,

     “…but stop trying to emulate white women and be you natural kinky headed selves. Damn!”

     What else am I supposed to think here? Seriously. If you love black women, you love us for who we are, perm or not. Worrying about how our hair is makes you look incredibly superficial - just as superficial as the assholes that kerrita k. had to deal with.

     BLACK WOMEN ARE MORE THAN HAIR, DUDE.

     And if some of us do wear our hair permed and with weave, then so the hell what? Has it ever come to mind that some of us perm our hair just because it is easier to manage that way? Some of us perm it so that it doesn’t fall out? But seriously, you’re under the assumption that we can’t have a mind of our own and that we always have to emulate white women.

     In all honesty, I find it strange that many of the men who say crap like this usually aren’t too interested in black women anyway.

     Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 6:10 pm ¶

117. Global Man wrote:

     A. I’m just speaking the truth. I’m pleased to know it hurts. The truth hurts because I’m big enough to bring t out in the open. When I see a Black women, I want a BLACK WOMEN! Not some pretender who tries to emulate the Euro standard of beauty, Period! Are you calling me a liar?? Every day, 90 percent, yes, 90% of you are always bitter, angry, at yourselves really. I love natural women in mind, body, and spirit and many of you just seem like a lost cause. Yes, there are many black men that are lost causes as well and that’s why I mentioned in the past that there should be another million AA women march. There needs to be some dialogue between black men and women and it’s getting worse. I’m just brutally honest about what I see through the windows of my sensitive eyes so if you say screw me, then so be it…;-) Yes, seeing most black women with burned up pony hair is UNAPPEALING!

     Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 8:51 pm ¶

118. Global Man wrote:

     By the way “A” for whatever. There are many educated “Black Men” out there, however, not all go to the club my dear..;-) Many like myself, live a diversified life like traveling the world meeting people from other cultures, language, and learning not only about them, but about myself as well. Love sky diving, run cross country, track and field, write short docs, checking out youdifferent plays, music bands, art shows, etc. Having coffee and enjoying normal, non interview conversations about what we do for a living, how old you are, etc. You know, typical predictable dialogue that bores the shit out of many men these days. You see, having a PHD is only an education on what you’ve studied, not life. One cannot get a degree on being well rounded either. I’ve met many educated fools in my lifetime so it only carries but so far “Miss A”. If you know you are educated, why flaunt it when one knows they walk it, talk it, and exemplifies all that represents education. Yes, many more women are getting degrees and all, however, it seems these days Black women act like my enemy more than white men, white women, other ethnics as well. With all that said, if one comes at me with positive energy instead of disdain, there would be no problem with reciprocation. You see, life is the real education, and no degree can prepare you for that. I give women credit for knowing who to step to (baffoons) because they know when looking into the deep windows of my eyes, they know I can see all the insecurities of their internal bleeding that need therapy. Maybe if most of stop living on their perceptions of black men and deal with the reality that’s called embracing the moment, men like myself can show you a world that goes way beyond a PHD..;-) Aloha!

     Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 9:15 pm ¶

119. Latoya Peterson wrote:

     ***THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED, NO FURTHER COMMENTS WILL BE APPROVED***

     Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 9:28 pm ¶

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