Old Timer Racism – What Would You Have Done in this Situation?
by Guest Contributor Ryan Barrett, originally published at Cheap Thrills
Last night I got together with 5 friends to watch the Celtics game. We decided to head out to the only “bar bar” in Boston’s South End (which also happens to be an Irish one, go figure) because we wanted to yell at the T.V. and scarf down semi-disgusting seven dollar finger food. Watching sports requires such things, after all.
We found a great table in the corner – right in front of a smaller T.V – and settled in for a night of Kobe shutdown. A few other people from the bar were also gathered around our T.V., talking to each other about the game.
Two men in particular were quit vocal. They made interestingly oblivious and strangely inappropriate comments like, “I sweeah (that’s Boston for swear) that has to be Whitey Bulgah sitting next to Randy Moss” and “Magic Jaahnson – shouldn’t he be dead by now?”
We chose to ignore the guys… until we heard this: “C’mon, make the shot you f*cking spook.”
Our table began bouncing questions off of each other – “Did he really just say that?” “I think he just called Paul Pierce a spook!” “WTF?!?!”
The guy overheard our table talk and started rambling to himself about how we didn’t understand his life and how everyone called Black basketball players “spooks” in Roxbury in the 60’s.
So then we engaged him. And it was strange; each person at our table handled the situation differently. One person berated and belittled the guy, one tried a rational approach, one furrowed her eyebrows and just stared straight into his eyes – a look that demanded the man acknowledge her presence (that would have been me – the only Black person sitting at our table), and three ignored the whole situation. When the conversation escalated and the guy got in one of our faces, decisions became tricky. Do you actually throw down with a 65 year-old dude? Or do you just tell the bartender what’s going on?
I really don’t know the right way to handle this kind of situation. I don’t know whether it’s worth it to get angry. I also don’t know whether it’s worth it to try to rationalize with someone whose racism is so ingrained in his way of speaking, thinking, living. But then I think it must be worth it, because 1) this guy is openly validating racism, embedding it in the outlook of his children… who are then bringing said racism to theirs, and 2) perhaps people who only know racism as a way of life don’t see their ignorance.
Because here’s the funny thing: after all was said and done, the guy tried to apologize and buy us a round of drinks (and then, of course, went on to repeat that we didn’t understand his history).
Our response? Thanks but no thanks.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
Celeste wrote:
Yeah, that’s Boston for you. I’m moving this summer.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 10:12 am ¶
Black Canseco wrote:
Racism is racism no matter what the decade… I’ve heard “spook”–even been called spook. Been called “monkey,” “go back to africa”, etc. Some of the culprits were drunk, some sober. Some were colleagues, college folk, complete strangers, old people… Everybody’s got their fave go-to slur given the situation.
Bars are great because everyone uses liquor and nightlife as an excuse to say and do proudly what they’d be ashamed of/scared to do anywhere else. Strength in numbers, dark lighting, grain alcohol are powerful persuaders.
My guess is I would’ve said to this guy what I’ve said to folks I’ve dealt with in similar situations in the past:
“Jack Daniels ain’t a bigot, but you are.”
You can laugh at drunk racism; sometimes its easiest to do so. Just remember–people say drunk what they think sober.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 10:19 am ¶
kim h20s wrote:
the situation resolved itself in about the best way realistically possible. of course in some dream land the man would realize the error of his ways, sign up for sensitivity training, and swear to vote for obama. the older man was honest and truthful in his actions. does he harbor ingrained racists views? yes. does he realize this? yes.
he tried to apologize and open a dialogue through buying a round of drinks. by refusing the drinks, you might have closed the door yourself.
just a thought from a black female in her 30s.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 10:30 am ¶
ceecee wrote:
At least he got called out on it, next time he’d hesitate before saying those kinds of things.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 10:49 am ¶
mamabraxas wrote:
I applaud your table’s refusal to let shit slide, but if you’re in a bar the next time there’s a confrontation it’s a good idea to get the attention of the bartender, even if it’s just giving him/her the heads up. Bar beef gets ugly with the quickness – 65 year old man or no. Especially racist bar beef.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 11:07 am ¶
Sean wrote:
I think you all did the right thing. At his age, racist beliefs are so ingrained into his psyche that it might as well be part of his DNA. I imagine someone could have hit the guy, but what would that have done? It wouldn’t change his mind and the person would have gone to jail for assault.
All we can do is take comfort in the fact that as racists of his generation dies off, their racism will weaken and die off with them.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 11:11 am ¶
Sean wrote:
In related news…… how about that Amy Winehouse, eh?
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 11:14 am ¶
YamYam wrote:
Personally, I would of found the situation trifling and ignored him. Words are only words, and if they make you snap or otherwise change your enjoyment of your own life and what you are doing with it at the present moment, they have defeated you.
The words the man spoke were not taunting words. I will say this, if he actually bought you drink after you got in his face, he’s not a real coward. No real coward, would of kowtowed to strangers in a bar like that, after getting lectured to his face, by buying them drinks. To tell you the truth, if you can’t even accept someone’s peace offering, how are you going to stop making racist words your sworn enemies and rid them from your mind? Only people are enemies, not the words themselves. If not, arguments would draw blood, and not literally. He knows he could of gotten his butt kicked, but wasn’t scared of you and he wasn’t looking to fight you either. You didn’t try to kick his butt either, so there you go. You only got out of it what you put into it, mere words, like him.
You might have thought you or you friend read him the riot act, but to him you were just “philosophizing.”
You’ve just met a vestige of the old world’s racial mindset. A white man who does not hate black people, but has never cared about any black friend he’s ever had (if he’s ever had any) in an equal way. That’s why words like that don’t mean anything to him; and I mean nothing; there’s no pragmatic value to it, for him. There’s no humanity in between you. But you’re not real enemies either.
The sunny side is the gruff side. He’s no one. Brush your shoulders off.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 11:26 am ¶
jed wrote:
You were probably in his territory and he was just pushing your buttons to see how you would respond. You showed some guts and won his respect. It’s like dogs pissing on a lamp post.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 1:06 pm ¶
Fina wrote:
I think it’s important to call people out but more important is your own safety. As a woman, think I would have left the bar, booze and bigotry don’t mix; and it can get ugly quick.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 1:15 pm ¶
Thea wrote:
The different between old-timer racism, and young-person racism (in my experience) is that older folks are often much more open about being racist, whereas younger folks will be intensely (for eg) white-centric in everything they do, including the things that are supposed to be counter-cultural, while decrying racism and trying to distance themselves from uncool, old, openly racist people.
I don’t know if I’d rather have to deal with overt or covert racism. I’ve always lived in places where racism was highly covert, and sometimes it drives me mad. I wish people would stop being so dang hypocritical about their f-ed-ness and say what they really mean. Then again, I don’t know if I’d like hearing slurs all day long.
The guy trying to buy you a round of drinks while saying that you still didn’t understand his history reminds me of a guy I used to work with. He described anything that annoyed him as “gay”. We had a pretty good relationship and I used to bring it up that the term bugged me and I didn’t think it was ok. The end result? One day he told me that he wasn’t going to stop saying it, but he really really didn’t like it that I didn’t like it when he said it. A small victory, but still a victory…
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 1:20 pm ¶
Mark wrote:
Never take excuses from a man because he’s drunk or because of his age. Never.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 1:53 pm ¶
CW Nordstrom wrote:
You mention that you thought that “this guy is openly validating racism” when in fact he was openly validating his ignorance and stupidity. Live and let live, try your best to ignore these people because it’s not worth your trouble to try and change his mind.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 1:59 pm ¶
holls wrote:
Aaaah, Foleys.
That takes me back.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 2:05 pm ¶
Rob Schmidt wrote:
Re “everyone called Black basketball players “spooks” in Roxbury in the 60’s”: That was 40+ years–aka two generations–ago. To put it mildly, things have changed since then.
Not being confrontational, I probably would’ve ignored him or shouted a generic, “Hey, be quiet.” But it sounds as if your approach worked pretty well.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 2:09 pm ¶
Tallen wrote:
This post makes me remember an incident that happened to me a almost 10 years ago in Copley Square. My fiance was on a consulting project in Boston and I flew in to visit him from Chicago. He was showing me around and we grabbed something to eat at the Pizzeria Uno there. It was a warm spring afternoon, so we decided to eat al fresco. We ate, did some people-watching–Gwenyth Paltow and Ben Affleck walked in front of our table. Anyway, an old (in her 60’s, at least) White woman, pushing a cart and wearing dirty clothes walked passed our table, looked back and yelled out “Niggers” to us. Wow. Just, wow. I hate Boston.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 2:34 pm ¶
bertie wrote:
I’d be curious to know what was the gender make up of the group of 5 friends. One thing I have learned the hard way (with a scar under my left eye to prove it) is that, at least with men, bar arguments often end up with somebody getting jumped in the parking lot. I think in a situation like this, you have to ask does the guy’s comment warrant whupping his ass and/or getting your ass whupped–because those are two realistic possibility if you confront the guy by reading him the riot act or belittling him and the situation escalates (as they often do when you mix a challenged male ego with liquor). At best, telling him to ease up on the spook comments and letting him know in a matter of fact way that it ain’t cool is the best way to go–but reading him the riot act and/or publicaly belittling him could definitely result in violence.
But it might be different if he is being read the riot act by women–the guy may be less likely to take it as a direct challenge and thus the situation may not escalate past a certain point.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 2:41 pm ¶
Paul wrote:
You could’ve asked him how he felt as a lad when he was called a “mick” or “papist”? Anti-Irish/Catholic bias was still in full force in the 1950s. Maybe putting it in his terms would’ve caused a light to go on.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 4:40 pm ¶
Slush wrote:
The problem with brushing it off or not brushing it off is that it sits ill either way. And the next time, whether or not someone choose to respond differently, evokes this instance and every time they’ve been called a slur or offended by a slur directed at someone else, progressively getting harder and harder to tolerate.
The asshole who makes these comments only thinks of them in singular incidents, but the victims and observers experience them cumulatively.
That’s one reason why “mere words” are as bad as many other injuries. How many times must we have to brush it off? A trillion?
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 4:57 pm ¶
eva wrote:
Thanks for mixing it up with the racist. Problem is mainstream education AND media has most of the nation believing that racists lynch Blacks and burn crosses. Language and ideas don’t fit the mainstream model.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 5:24 pm ¶
TheLostGirl wrote:
I think they did the right thing getting not in his face.
What were they gonna do, rock out with a guy old enough to be their grandfather?
He is wrong and really racist, but you can’t educate everyone. Pick your battles!
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 5:59 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:
The racism of old white people fascinates me because–at least some of the time–it seems to not be “personal.”
I recently went to a wake for my Italian-American best friend’s grandfather who’d passed at 96 (!) My friend was stunned to see so many Black folks at the wake because his grandfather was so racist that it would take your breath away. When my friend expressed dismay to his father he was told “Oh yes, he was very popular in the neighborhood.” Apparently, the Caribbean population that moved in to the old man’s neighborhood in the last decade or so loved to hear his stories and he relished their attention.
I watched as groups of young Black men and a few older ones sat there–in an Irish funeral home filled with Brooklyn Italians–with tears streaming down their faces as the priest (who’d never even met him) improvised kind words for the old man. They pumped my friend’s hand in the receiving line and said “Oh, I’m going to miss him, he was so good to us!”
I’ve thought about that a lot since it happened and I am still not sure if it makes me happy or sad.
I never met the old man either so I couldn’t say for sure but it seems that his racism was so compartmentalized he was able to have loving relationships with his black neighbors without ever reconsidering his unspecific feelings about “the Blacks” in general. I don’t really understand how that works–because I’ve always operated under the assumption that if people got to know each other their prejudices would fade.
But maybe some racism is such a habitual reflex that it is invisible even to the racist himself.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 7:06 pm ¶
RoslynHolcomb wrote:
“But it might be different if he is being read the riot act by women–the guy may be less likely to take it as a direct challenge and thus the situation may not escalate past a certain point.”
Based on his reaction I would guess that they were all women, and young attractive women at that. Had there been any men, you’re right there probably would’ve been some violence or at least escalation.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 7:12 pm ¶
MarcoWild1 wrote:
I would have let him take the firstdrunken swing at me and then nailed his ass. I’m damn near 50 so I can’t really use the he too old approach to justify not letting him fall over in a drunken stupor.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 8:00 pm ¶
J. wrote:
I always heard that Boston was ugly, racially. I actually live only an hour and some change away too (Central Connecticut).
That’s the hypocrisy of pro sports. The same big black ballers gets applauded and cheered on by the same mostly white fans that consciously or unconsciously despise them.
The same whites who wear Lebron James jerseys and worship his (immense) game would go out of their way to avoid him if he were a stranger in the street.
It goes to show you that, there’s no getting out of racism in this society. It’ll work it’s way in somehow.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 8:06 pm ¶
Liza wrote:
Tough choices. I always think “What’s safest for me to do right now.” Sounds like you were in good company, were dealing with someone you could outrun (I’m not a fan of physical violence), and recognizing there was alcohol involved. I don’t think there is a “one-size-fits-all” answer here. Regarding Boston, yeah, I was born, raised, LEFT, and came back and know exactly what you mean. Boston does have a very strange and ugly history with Black/White relations, especially around the 1960s. Certainly NOT acceptable in any form for him to be spitting those words – and, I also think not acceptable to play the “offensive words ping-pong” game by throwing any slurs his way, either.
Round of drinks? I probably wouldn’t have accepted it, either. Conversation to “hear” his side and then aptly school him on the current state of race in our country….? Yes. I’d be all for that (depending on how drunk people were and if anyone could really absorb knowledge).
Boston. Oh, Boston. I have a love-hate relationship with the town of my birth.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 8:42 pm ¶
Mike wrote:
I must say you guys did the right thing. The people I run with would of turned the place upside down.
That is of course if they knew what he meant by spook. Very good chance that term would of passed us by.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 9:42 pm ¶
miss girl wrote:
“…embedding it in the outlook of his children… who are then bringing said racism to theirs…”
This can go either way. I’ve met very progressive-minded liberal thinkers with bigots for parents.
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 9:43 pm ¶
Ada wrote:
Oh great. I have learned another word that weirdos would like to call me.
Posted 10 Jun 2008 at 1:12 am ¶
Mimi wrote:
The other thing to add to the list of things to do might be to get your cellphone set to take video?
Posted 10 Jun 2008 at 7:41 am ¶
Genevieve wrote:
Uh, to go to what Paul said, I wouldn’t say the word “mick” or “papist” to any white person in a bar in Boston. I’m not a math whiz, but I know when I’m dangerously outnumbered. And taking video of anyone is very dangerous legally, especially because I think the law requires anyone but the government to get written permission to make an audio recording of anyone else.
If they aren’t talking to/about me or are very loud or near to me, I usually leave old racist people alone, because I’ve got at least a handful of them in my own family, none of whom are white. It’s sad, really. I focus on “enlightening” only younger people and try to stay out of people’s business when I can.
But then, I’ve lived in the south for the past couple of years, and in super-white neighborhoods most of my life before that.
Posted 10 Jun 2008 at 10:52 am ¶
Elton wrote:
“The guy overheard our table talk and started rambling to himself about how we didn’t understand his life and how everyone called Black basketball players “spooks” in Roxbury in the 60’s.”
It wasn’t ok then, and it isn’t ok now.
@J
“That’s the hypocrisy of pro sports. The same big black ballers gets applauded and cheered on by the same mostly white fans that consciously or unconsciously despise them.”
That’s because athletes are there to entertain fans. They don’t run the place. So just because it looks like those ballers are large and in charge doesn’t mean that they are in a dominant position.
And to everyone talking about how racist Boston or the South or some other locale is, remember that racism knows no boundaries. At the same time, geography is neither sufficient explanation nor excuse for the choices of individuals to espouse racist beliefs.
Posted 10 Jun 2008 at 1:25 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:
Anyway, an old (in her 60’s, at least) White woman, pushing a cart and wearing dirty clothes walked passed our table, looked back and yelled out “Niggers” to us. Wow. Just, wow. I hate Boston.
“…and that’s why you’re pushing that cart!”
Posted 10 Jun 2008 at 3:22 pm ¶
Genevieve wrote:
When I lived in New England and the midwest, it was just as racist as it is down in the Bible Belt, I was just younger and more ignorant at the time, so I have rosier memories. I also had a lighter complexion then, so my experience was very different. It also seems to me that where I am living now, younger people are more open about the prejudices they have, although old people everywhere I’ve lived are either extra polite or extra rude.
Just my 2c about location…
Posted 10 Jun 2008 at 4:06 pm ¶
twentysomething wrote:
I applaud you guys for having the courage to confront him. I probably would have just rolled my eyes or moved. I am not trying to die in a damn club/bar.
Posted 10 Jun 2008 at 11:07 pm ¶
Ali wrote:
I don’t feel that older people should get a pass for racist language/attitudes just because they’re old. I’m not saying that they should be confronted for every violation either, sometimes arguing with someone who has such a completely different perspective on things is just a waste of time. Once I was interviewing a woman who was 75+ for an article and she actually referred to me as “colored.” I didn’t respond immediately, I was so caught off guard that I didn’t even realize what had happened until I was in my car driving back to campus. I wasn’t angry at her, just annoyed. Old or not, that woman did not grow up in a vacuum. Anyone with working ears and a television should know that “colored” is no longer an appropriate term for blacks.
Posted 11 Jun 2008 at 11:44 am ¶
Debbie wrote:
There is no excuse for what that man said, but everyone growing up in that time will still have the same mentality, it’s not just because he’s from Boston, Celeste.
Posted 13 Jun 2008 at 6:02 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:
What’d you expect…it’s the South End… Black Bostonians told me to just stay the hell out of places like that so I’ve never ever been in your situation. Drunk racists? OMG…
Posted 13 Jun 2008 at 7:53 pm ¶
me wrote:
Go 22. Annonymous!!!
Well said.
Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 8:35 pm ¶
Kristen wrote:
This posting reminds me of my grandparents’ generation. I love my grandparents with all my heart and enjoy every moment I spend with them. But…they are racist an sexist (and not all of them are white, I’m mixed ethnicity). The racism comes from both sides and it used to really bother me, but I really understand where they are coming from. They are from a different time where those things mattered much more and racial slurs were the norm. I used to cringe when one of them would use a slur in my presence but I get it. They are not talking about me and they really have no other basis for how to act.
I am comforted by the fact that just about everyone of my parents and my generation does not feel this way. We just let them talk the way they will talk knowing that the type of ignorance they possess will eventually die out. I hear these comments all of the time. My reaction is usually apathetic. I don’t condone it but I don’t reprimand it either. Besides that, I could never lash out at an elder, let alone one that I do not know.
Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 5:59 pm ¶