Interracial Dating – Yet I Do Marvel
by Guest Contributor Ken Mitchell
“Yet do I marvel at this curious thing; / To make a poet black, and bid him sing!”
—Countee Cullen, “Yet Do I Marvel”
We all marvel at life circumstances, and I certainly am no different. And because of my upbringing, experiences, and education, I am constantly curious and marveling about the intersections of language and culture, as well as ancillary topics (travel, history, literature, art, philosophy) in my life.
My mother realized before I did that I would have a penchant for dating outside my race. I began studying foreign languages seriously at age 11, and I couldn’t put them down. “It was then I knew,” she said later, “that you would be with someone who wasn’t black.” -That- prospect was okay with her, but as she is from small-town South Carolina, she drew her line in the sand effortlessly and in all seriousness: “Just don’t bring a white girl into this house.” She needn’t have worried about the terrifying prospect of Cindy (one of my mom’s default white girl names) invading her home, because I came out to her as gay a couple of years after her pronouncement.
And in my entire dating history, every single potential partner has been of another race.
I’m currently in a serious relationship with a wonderful man who fits my mother’s prediction, gender aside. We’re a considerable mix of ethnicities and cultures; he’s a Spaniard with dark Mediterranean features, and I’m a 4-to-1 mix of being Afr-Am and Native American (from two North Carolina tribes). We both have Christian upbringings, though I am now a practicing Jew (that’s right, I’m a gay black Jew). We were both bilingual Spanish-English before meeting each other. Spanish is our communicative medium of choice, though the dialects are slightly different (his – Castilian, mine – Costa Rican/Argentine/Castilian, the last part of which being his influence).
Perhaps interestingly, I have told my boyfriend a number of times that it’s difficult for me to see him as white. Considering the Mediterranean countries and regions, I view Portuguese, French, Italian, all southern Slavs, and Greeks as being white. But though I have seen plenty of other Spaniard guys who look white to me, his dark features (along with language) make me see him as Spaniard above all else, then Mediterranean, then European, and then white. He self-identifies as European above all else; as whiteness in the US typically (but certainly not exclusively) carries an Anglo-Saxon connotation, he doesn’t feel comfortable labelling himself as such, though he does so in his native country.
There are certain stereotypes that I think people could easily employ when examining our relationship.
(a) He fetishizes me according to the notion of the hypersexual and hypersexually endowed black male;
(b) I fetishize him as a tall, dark, Latin lover whose sex appeal and mystique increases with the swivel in his hips.
(c) My being with him establishes upward mobility – I’ve ‘moved up’ to orbit in the ’superior’ world of co-mingling with someone who is lighter-skinned and straighter-haired;
(d) I’m ultimately self-hating because I’m not with someone of my own phenotypical characteristics. I should point out, however, that I have never been confronted with any of these by anyone.
In discussing how others might perceive us, I would imagine that, when outside of gay or gay-tolerant circles, the fact that we’re a gay couple of any ilk far trumps our respective intra-couple diversity as being the issue of note. Within gay-tolerant environments, however, the previously mentioned stereotypes are of greater potential gravity, and I’d like to address them here. Regarding (a) and (b), he and I are both internationally minded and love travel, language, literature, art, and exploring other cultures. We’ve had these inclinations since before meeting each other. Each of us is the first person that we’ve dated outside of our own nationality and language. I think that because of the sum total of our life experiences, we both realize that we appreciate diversity and we have been open to potential partners who are not exactly like us in every way. Similarly, we weren’t romanticizing whom we might have encountered. He doesn’t place me on a racialized pedestal, à la Hughes’ Slave on the Block’; in the same vein I don’t romanticize him along the lines of being exotic, mysterious, and dangerous, all of which form part of the portrayal of Latin and Hispanic males in American popular culture (see Dr. Diane Klein’s presentation on “Latino Masculinities under the Microscope”). I’m not solely a mobile penis; neither is he a disembodied swiveling torso.
Regarding (c) – Interestingly, my boyfriend is not exactly who I envisioned being with, in a way. When I previously thought of being with a Spanish speaker, I envisioned being with a darker-skinned, curly-haired Latino from a region roughly extending from Cuba and Puerto Rico in the north, through Honduras and Panama southward to Colombia and Venezuela (I should note, however, that I have always been open to the possibility of people from other locations as well). I love my boyfriend for a myriad of reasons, among which being that we have similar life goals and aspirations. We’re both in the same profession. We’re close in age. We have similar pursuits and pastimes. We have similar ideas about travel, living abroad, and raising children. What I’m trying to illustrate here is that just being with him doesn’t accord either one of us any status in each other’s mind (nor anyone else’s, as far as we’ve been told), nor has it given us any perceived ‘culture cred.’ In the circles that we inhabit, it’s a complete non-issue that we are of different races, cultures, and colors. And as the ’skin/hair’ reference is employed most frequently in the context of perceived offspring, this is at current a non-issue for us as well — we haven’t even begun to consider what the mother of our children will look like.
And with stereotype (d), I already mentioned that I’m with my partner because of personality, attractiveness and life goals, not specifically because of his race or ethnicity. I do gravitate toward those with some similar characteristics as I have – light tan to medium brown skin, dark features, a strong eye-hair color contrast, full lips. The places on earth where I’ve embraced my phenotypical characteristics the most have been Cuba and Panama, and the poetry of black Cuban poet Nicolás Guillén has been formative in my self-determination and self-esteem building (see his poems “Negro Bembón” and “Mulata”). But I don’t exclusively seek someone of those characteristics, nor do I exclude anyone automatically because of their lack of those physical attributes.
To revisit Cullen’s poem, “Yet Do I Marvel,” there exists an apparent paradox. The poet bemuses the fate of being a black poet and expected to sing. Though it seems like on the surface it may be cruel to expect a black poet to sing merrily in his verse when his reality is fraught with despair, Cullen’s point is that the seeming paradox, along with the others mentioned in the poem, has a built-in appropriate resolution. Though the circumstance of a black poet ’singing’ and expressing himself artistically is peculiar, it is not impossible. I feel similarly about dating beyond my race — it isn’t because of some deficiency in my own state of being, nor is it cruel because I am consigned to adhering to prevalent stereotypes on the subject.
It’s simply because I love.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
Dan wrote:
While I can’t also sing your particular brand of Blues, I can hear it.
I’m a white male married to a black female.
I’m sure you can imagine the looks and disapproving stares aimed our way, and what thoughts lurk behind them.
The funny thing is, we’re the OPPOSITE of all of that.
1) My wife didn’t ’swear off’ black men. On the contrary, she’s had nothing but good experiences with the black men she’s dated; they just weren’t compatible in the long run. Also, I was the first white man she had ever dated. She wasn’t looking for a white man and I wasn’t looking for a black woman. It wasn’t until we discussed it in length later that we realized we were simply looking for LOVE and had ASSUMED it would take the forms of a black man and white woman…however because we hadn’t actually restricted ourselves to those types, we were open for each other and our similarities in so many areas and common interests made our compatibility impossible to ignore.
2) Her culture isn’t lost. If anything, I’ve taken a profound interest in her country and have become a rather voracious anti-racist activist. So while some believe that any ethnic people who marry whites tend to lose touch with their heritage, I encourage her to embrace hers and help her in learning more. I want our children to have a proud and extensive knowledge of both of their heritages.
3) I’m not just a white man looking for the novelty of a black woman. I would think the rings on our fingers would dispel that myth.
4) I’m not a sugardaddy. We both make a very good living, however she makes about $5,000 more than me per year. So the illusion that she’s marrying a white man for his money is absurd. My wife had her own money before me and was smarter with her money than I was with mine. Also, my wife has a Masters’ degree in her respective field. She is more educated than me and is more educated than 99% of the bigots that stereotype her.
5) My wife didn’t grow up in a predominantly white neighborhood which influenced her decision to marry a white man. On the contrary, she grew up in a very poor urban area in Philadelphia. In addition, her father was a practicing Muslim and was a member of the Black Panther Party. While she was raised Muslim, I was raised Roman Catholic. We have both just about sworn off our respective religions due to hypocrisies and chauvanistic rules and are currently exploring Buddhism and Taoism.
It’s fine to PREFER to date a person of a specific ethnicity as long as there are non-stereotypical reasons for doing so. However when one closes off all ethnic persons not of their own race due to prejudice, you are not only closing yourself off to the possibility of a love greater than you’ve ever known, but are perpetuating negative stereotypes and irrational hatred based on skin color.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 9:27 am ¶
Celeste wrote:
@ Dan Re point #3: It would be nice if novelty/fetish never made it to the altar but it does. I think there are plenty of IR marriages that began in part on the novelty/fetish factor. Most of them probably move beyond that but when you have some men referring to their wives as “war trophies” that tells me that not all fetishes are left behind.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 9:55 am ¶
Dan wrote:
True Celeste.
I think in terms of the war trophies label, it’s mainly uttered by men who served in the Korean War and Vietnam War, all of whom are now escalating in age and come from an era when racism was more in your face and wasn’t given a second thought.
I know this sounds crude and goes against all of my moral beliefs, but I truly think this country will make significant progress when the ‘Old Guard’ dies off. Racists and bigots from eras gone by when it was accepted, who are too old to change and live in a Brave New World according to their moral compass that might as well have been forged in the Dark Ages .
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 10:09 am ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
Interesting. My father raised us very racist, but used to always say he just wanted us to be happy and didnt care who we married.
All the same, I hate to think of what woul dhave happened if I have brought home a black girl. It was one thing for him to say it, another thing to put it into action.
I ended up marrying an Arab woman. he would have loved that, not only was she NOT white, she is a Muslim.
He passed away before we married. I’d like to think he would have liked her and loved our children and knowing her would have changed his mind on views of race and religion, but we’ll never know.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 10:13 am ¶
Celeste wrote:
@ Dan: I’m a bit ashamed to admit that I think that way, too. Very ageist of me. Some people are at a point in their lives where they’re not going to adapt. The sad thing is is that those beliefs take a long time to die out completely.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 10:18 am ¶
dave wrote:
lovely essay/post. i’m a white guy, my boyfriend is black, so i live somewhere in between the stories of ken & commenter dan. thanks for putting some thoughts into words …
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 11:03 am ¶
cubicalgirl wrote:
Ken, great piece! I had to laugh at your mother telling you not to bring home a white girl. I’m a white, straight girl (not named Cindy, BTW) who spent my youth hearing, “Don’t bring home a black boy!” from my father. So I guess it was destined to be that I’ve very happily spent the past five years (and most likely the rest of my life) with a great black guy. I guess every culture has their variation on the, “Dont bring home a [insert race here]!” sentiment.
Dan, you’re not the only person waiting for the “old guard” to die off. I’ve often thought things would get better once the more open-minded among us got old enough to start being out in the world and influencing others.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 11:30 am ¶
Nasheed wrote:
I’m an African-American, single man. I identify as gay (and am out), however, not only have I dated women in the past, but my longest (arguably) best relationships have been with women. I am exclusively attracted to men of color (men of African descent or Native descent from North or South America are preferred, but I’m open to dating Asians, Middle Eastern, etc.). However, I dated several white women many years ago.
It was only fair that I introduce myself with this bit of background, though, I don’t believe it is relevant to the only comment I wish to make on your soul baring article.
YOU WROTE: >>>”I’m ultimately self-hating because I’m not with someone of my own phenotypical characteristics. I should point out, however, that I have never been confronted with any of these by anyone.”<<<
It matters little if anyone confronts you with their observations or opinions about the patterns of your dating behavior. It matters only that you question and thoroughly examine your own behavior patterns. It is most troubling when anyone neglects the opportunity to do so.
The answers you come up with may or may not be significant. Any answers may be subject to change with time, experience and upon re-examination.
Are you attracted to men of your own phenotypical characteristics? Why or why not?
Even if you must admit to yourself that you don’t know, there is cause for excitement. A wise man once said, “The most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom is “I do not know”".
[The "wise man" quoted above is actually a fictional character, Lt. Cmdr. Data from the TV series "Star Trek - The Next Generation - lol]
“Question with boldness even the existence of a god.” – Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 11:48 am ¶
Yvette wrote:
I truly think this country will make significant progress when the ‘Old Guard’ dies off.
However, folks have been saying this for decades. “Youth” is no guarantee for empathy or understanding. For example, it isn’t the “old guard” having blackface parties on college campuses. There is always the possibility of backlash, of a couple steps backwards for every step forward. Lessons have to be re-taught and re-learned. It would be nice if such were not the case, but it is what it is.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 12:17 pm ¶
Erika wrote:
“And in my entire dating history, every single potential partner has been of another race. ”
And why is that, I wonder (not being malicious; just very curious).
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 12:58 pm ¶
sylvie wrote:
@dan: i think you’re just saying what a lot of people are thinking. it’s frustrating; you want to be respectful and try to remember that they grew up in different times…but it’s hard.
props to this post. i have my own grievances with fetishization, but i try to think of it as a separate issue from interracial dating in general, which i support and participate in. i’ve learned that IR relationships are easily targeted with assumptions: “oh, s(he) must be trying to get citizenship,” or “s(he) must have a fetish,” or “s(he) must hate their own race.” we never assume “oh, they must really love each other.” there’s something really sad about that.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 1:11 pm ¶
thesciencegirl wrote:
Dan and Celeste, in some ways, I disagree with your suggestion that when older generations die off, racism will drastically improve. Part of the problem, IMO, is that people (attempt to) pass their prejudices onto their children. I grew up in a crazy racist small town, and when I went to away to college, I decided to do some research into why people in my hometown were racist (no straight answer, I know), but what it came down to was that Jimmy Jr. in my high school class learned to tell nigger jokes because he heard them from his pop, who heard them from his father who learned his distaste of black people from his father, who was a poor farmer in the KKK, and HIS father hated black people because he owned them as slaves. The older generations may die off, but their bitterness tends to linger.
Also, I, for one, am far more frustrated and angered by the variety of racism more often displayed by younger generations; younger people seem to be more likely to crave a “colorblind” society at the expense of dialogue, throw about terms like “reverse racism” and shut down constructive conversations on race with things like “Hey, guys, can’t we all just get along?” I find that my peers ( I am 25) are so afraid to be called racists that they fear discussing race at all. And personally, I’d rather someone flew their bigot flag (strangely, it resembles the confederate flag. lol) than contentedly hide in a bubble of ignorance and self-congratulation.
What are your thoughts?
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 1:38 pm ¶
Celeste wrote:
@thesciencegirl: what I meant but was too lazy to type is that only the worst hardcore stuff is abated as the generations pass. You’re definetely right. What I was referring to was the “I’ve had enough of Husain” contingent. There’s been plenty of racism tha has been/is being passed on to last us the next several decades.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 1:46 pm ¶
Ken Mitchell wrote:
Thanks for reading and for your comments, everyone.
@Dan (Post #1)– “It’s fine to PREFER to date a person of a specific ethnicity as long as there are non-stereotypical reasons for doing so.”
I think what’s needed more than anything, in reference to this idea, is a simple, honest examination of preferences to get to the underlying justifications for them. Though I think it unfortunate, it is nonetheless my view that many people who state dating or interactional preferences do so for prejudicial reasons, however (c)overt.
In my next submission I’ll examine the hierarchy of ethnic preference for interracial gay dating in San Francisco, and attempt to determine the basis for racial preference in partner selection in this population subset.
@Abu Sinan – Though I can’t say that I was raised racist, I share similar sentiments on fearing what would happen if I were to bring a WASP posterboy home to my mother. She would want me to be happy, but she would have an extremely difficult time dealing with it. You’re right — things can change, quite drastically even, when a situation is placed directly in your face.
@cubicalgirl – You’re right, we (most of us) all have variation on this theme of who not to bring home. Sadly though, I don’t think this sentiment is going anywhere soon.
@Nasheed – Excellent point about examining (and re-examining) my behaviours and the motives therefor. The question “Am I attracted to men of my own characteristics?” was one that, for many years, I was scared to ask myself. Truthfully, I am attracted to some black men, especially those who look like me. In terms of pure statistics, I tend to be attracted to other races in higher proportions, but the love for my own colour is definitely there. We should all remember to continually ask this question.
@Yvette and thesciencegirl – Yes, I agree. It’s not just a question of letting time pass. Just as racism and prejudice are continually taught, enlightening lessons also must be taught, or the backwards steps will far outnumber the forward ones. If anything, racism isn’t going away, it’s just (a) more subtle, and (b) people these days are much more tight-lipped about their feelings. Along the lines of “flying a bigot flag,” Dave Chappelle had a sketch where he played Clayton Bigsby, a black white supremacist (funny stuff!) who implored people: “If you have hate in your heart, let it out!” You know? Be a man/woman about yours and own up to your feelings!
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 2:11 pm ¶
Dan wrote:
You definitely make some great points sciencegal and I agree with your views on the younger generation. They’ve been inclined to hide their racism rather than be open about it.
However with the ‘Old Guard’, their racism was out in the open and quite normal back in the day. No one looked at them with an arched eyebrow. Many public places were segregated and hey! if the government says it’s legal, then I must be justified in my racist thinking. Racism was accepted back then.
Nowadays that is not the case. Even if someone is racist and hiding it, they know that society projects ‘normalcy’ these days as being ‘colorblind’. To all except the most vocal and open of racists, racism is unequivocably bad. That’s a start. In order to dismantle racism, it first has to be accepted as a bad thing. That wasn’t the case when the ‘Old Guard’ were young.
So with racism being viewed the way it is, with whites persistently becoming less and less of the population, the times that it does rear it’s ugly head out in the open, it can be met with disapproval and condemnation. Back in the day, any whites who DID feel that racism was wrong, usually shut their mouths about it for fear of being ostracized, blackballed, or much worse. At the end of the day, their silence was collaboration and just as bad as the deed they were internally condemning because it allowed racism to continue unchecked.
I totally agree that contemporary youth claiming to be colorblind while still telling blacks to ‘get over it’ when referring to slavery and ‘it was 150+ years ago’ is a huge problem. Our public education system needs to do a better job of connecting slavery and America’s white supremacist past with the modern day struggles of blacks and other minorities. The whole process of how the white middle class was created through the FHA/VA loans of the mid 20th century which created over $15 billion in wealth for whites which has been handed down from parents to children, while those same loans were off limits to anyone who wasn’t white, needs to be taught. These things need to be understood in order for white youth to realize the importance and need for programs like Affirmative Action.
So again, while the youth of today have major issues in terms of recognizing and understanding racism, especially the more subtle forms of it, I think the way society as a whole understands that racism is wrong is a big step in the right direction and allows it to be confronted in a much more open manner than it was able to be confronted in the early years of the current ‘Old Guard’.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 2:32 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:
I figure that a lot of interracial relationships in the LGBT world, particularly in medium to small communities, are entered into because the dating pool as a whole is small, and why divide it further by race? It’s hard to find someone who is compatible sexually, temperamentally, has similar basic values, shares some favorite activity, has similar attitude toward raising children, degree of outness, and so on.
On the other hand, there’s a lot of racism in the white LGBT community and a lot of self-protective clannishness in the black LGBT community.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 2:51 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:
Ken, thank you for your post. I and many others wanted to see more posts on interracial relationships from a non-heterosexual perspective.
OT but your mom’s choosing “Cindy” as a sterotypical white name reminded me, somewhere I read that the “whitest” girl names (in terms of percentages of girls having this name who are white) are “Molly” and “Amy.” Don’t know about guys though!
I don’t think it’s wrong to be attracted to certain physical characteristics (for instance, I love dark-haired guys). I think it crosses a line when those characteristics are the ONLY thing that attract you about the person and you don’t care about them as an individual, or a personality. Like seeing all Latino men as the stereotypical “fiery Latin lover” when in fact the guy before you is shy, quiet, and bookish.
BTW, I think a lot of us – gay, straight, in IRs or not – didn’t “envision” winding up with the partner we have. Many of us start out with types and templates and then as we get more experienced/older/wiser/what have you, we learn to look beyond them. In our 20’s we say “I will only accept a black man with a professional job” or “I want to end up with a bosomy, red-headed schoolteacher” but then you turn around and fall in love with someone who doesn’t fit your “template.”
In fact, I would say a major cause of loneliness and relationship dysfunction is people who can’t look beyond their “ideal” to love a real person. Mind you, I’m not talking about stuff like “clean, sober, employed” or “likes kids, because I have them” or “willing to relocate to Wisconsin” or in my case “cat lover”
but the really picky external stuff.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 3:05 pm ¶
TM wrote:
Pura vida, Ken.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 3:08 pm ¶
Rachel wrote:
Wow, amazing article, Ken.
I am a white, Jewish, gay woman from California. I’d like to pose a curiosity/inquiry and am open to all opinions.
Do you think being attracted to someone of a different race because they “look” different than you is inherently a bad thing, aka “fetishism”? Could it not simply be attributed to the curiosity of difference?
I am often attracted to people who come from a different socio-economic background than myself (often lower class), because I see their experiences as different from my own and I respect their struggle. Of course, I don’t know they’re from a different economic background until I get to know them; race is different in this way, I admit.
However, I imagine that if a person is attracted to someone because they perceive this someone to be of a different race, that this isn’t necessarily due to fetishism/exoticism/projection of stereotypes. It could be an attraction based simply on an interest in difference – “I am different than you and thus I have something to learn from you.” I think it’s safe to assume (though I’m open to disagreement) that someone of a different perceived race will have different experiences than you on some level. Perhaps their experiences will be more similar to yours than you had expected, but in my opinion the assumption of and interest in “difference” is a fair one.
What do you think?
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 3:27 pm ¶
Ken Mitchell wrote:
@Erika – Good question. See my above comment to Nasheed.
@NancyP – It would seem to be more logical that way, but IMHO the divide is much greater in the LGBT community (at least in the gay community) than in the heterosexual world. I’ll expound on that more in the next writing.
@ailurophile – “I think it crosses a line when those characteristics are the ONLY thing that attract you about the person and you don’t care about them as an individual, or a personality.” YES YES YES! This is the crux of the whole issue!
And it’s also true what you said about a “template.” Mine was always a six-foot tall, Hispanic/Latino, dark-featured, light-eyed, full-lipped, native-Spanish speaking guy, 1-4 years older than me, with interests in travel, culture, arts, etc. I didn’t have tunnel vision exclusively for that (and have dated wonderful guys who weren’t anything close to that description), but my boyfriend does embody 90% of these.
@TM – ¡Pura vida mae!
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 3:40 pm ¶
Shannon wrote:
This was really excellent to read. Thank you for posting it.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 5:02 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:
Ken-
We have curiously similar tastes in men. Even though I alway place him in more of a mediterranean area. (And your boyfriend fits 90% of that too? Yum. : D )
And how about *none* of the guys I end up crushing on remotely looked like that.
That’s why I don’t know how much my opinions can weigh in on discussions about attraction, because my physical preferences can be very easily overriden. Some people claim they can’t function in a relationship without at least some of their ‘template’ being represented in their SO. That is a foreign notion to me and so I always end up at an impasse with those kind of people.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 6:36 pm ¶
A. wrote:
I am currently in a relationship with a white man. We’ve been together for 7 months, and I’ve gotten crap from white women, in my age group, over the fact that my boyfriend is white.
Age doesn’t make too much of a difference at all, because racism is a mindset that so many people have and as long as misinformation and a lack of consequence persists in regards to that, then people will never learn what is proper in regards to combating racism.
As Dan said, I’m in a similar situation to his wife. I’m not swearing off black men. I’m not fetishizing white men. I don’t say that, “My preference is white/asian/black/latino males.” (and I’m not a huge fan of the preference argument in regards to race because, IMO, it’s based on a host of stereotypes.)
The only difference between your wife and myself is that not only am I not married to my boyfriend, I grew up in a rather affluent environment. I grew up with a supportive mother, fortunately, whereas my grandparents are not supportive of my relationship at all. (in their case, it’s less the fact that he’s white, and more of the fact that he’s not from a similar socioeconomic background as myself.)
Rachel – my issue with preference is that, what I’ve personally seen (which may not be the norm), is that people use the preference argument because they hold fast to stereotypes of other types of people. I’ve heard men talk about how “I just don’t find black women attractive” but they find all other races of women attractive. I also hear men I know talk about how “I have a preference towards Asian women”, but it’s not that they have a genuine respect for Asian women, it’s because they have this racialized sexism thing going.
That, and I think societal issues go into that as well. The ones that I have found that do find black women attractive immediately jump to people like Halle Berry or a woman who is biracial as an example of an attractive black woman, though black women who are not noticeably biracial are automatically deemed unattractive.
…and I just derailed this conversation. Oops.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 6:45 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:
Ken: Please DO post about the “racial dating hierarchy” you observe amongst gay men. I’d also like to see a post by a lesbian or bisexual woman on “relationship hierarchies” amongst women.
Pinkie swear I’m not trying to derail here
but in the hetero world, if there is a gender/racial disparity in who dates or marries “out” it’s always the woman’s instigation (or fault, depending on your lights). Women are either picky Vickies or sellouts who are rejecting “their” men. So if these disparities exist in the gay and lesbian dating arenas it might provide more insight.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 7:28 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
Does respect and appreciation of one’s own racial group have to be tied to being physically attracted to fellow members on a regular basis? If so, why? Does it have more to do with an ability to appreciate the aesthetic qualities that you and those of your race were born with — qualities that may be shunned by society at large, so your group can find solace and acceptance among one another, at least? What if you can, but it’s divorced from sexual desire — you can see their beauty, but usually in the way that you can see beauty in your (literal) sister, brother or cousin?
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 8:14 pm ¶
Nia wrote:
Hey Ken-
I self-publish a series of zines about mixed-race identity and the next issue is about relationships. Could I reprint this post for my zine? See past issue here: http://qzap.org/v5/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=28&g2_itemId=647
Thanks. -Nia (oxette@riseup.net)
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 11:33 pm ¶
Renee wrote:
I have been in an inter racial relationship for 18 years this month. I am black and my partner is white. In our years together race between us has never really mattered. We don’t even acknowledge that there is a difference. It is the outside world that seems to feel that they can make judgments on our relationship. Despite our many years together they claim to “know” our true motivations. The truth is no one defines a relationship but the people that are in it.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 12:15 am ¶
Elton wrote:
Brilliantly written article. As a heterosexual Asian male, I often have some indignant opinion to add when interracial relationships are being discussed, since we have our particular set of complicated and often-ignored issues regarding that arena. In this case, perhaps since you’re out of my “realm” as a gay man–neither competition nor potential romantic interest–I don’t seem to have much to add from my perspective.
On a different plane, however, I do detect some unaddressed tension relating to your mother’s roots in “small-town South Carolina” and your own intellectual, international, cosmopolitan, multilingual, multicultural estilo suave. How have you coped with this?
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 1:50 am ¶
jvansteppes wrote:
“In my next submission I’ll examine the hierarchy of ethnic preference for interracial gay dating in San Francisco…”
Hooray for more of Ken! A non-heteronormative approach to IR relationships is so integral, especially because typical gendered expectations/ the ‘battle of the sexes’ are often non-applicable for us. I don’t know if other queers feel the same way but I find it harder to plug into some of the discussions on relationships because expectations aren’t the same in terms of traditional marriage or reproduction or strangers who stare at you on the street already when you’re out with your queer partner so you don’t know if it’s just a gay issue or a race issue or both.
“the divide is much greater in the LGBT community (at least in the gay community) than in the heterosexual world. I’ll expound on that more in the next writing.”
This is also highly dependent on where you live. In SF or NY there are big enough GLBQ communities people can be ‘picky vickies’ to a greater extent but when you’re from a smaller city and you’re the only Chinese lesbian you know you don’t really have the option of not dating outside your race.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 2:44 am ¶
Darkrose wrote:
Thanks for posting this! As a black woman planning to marry my white girlfriend soonish, I enjoy reading about other interracial GLBT relationships.
If you don’t mind my asking: how did you two meet?
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 3:10 am ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
I dont think there is anything wrong with being attracted to people of a different race.
I am a white guy, over six foot tall, blond hair and blue eyes. I am completely not attracted to white women. It isnt a choice I made, not something I sat and thought about, it is just the way I am.
I am attracted to women with dark hair, dark eyes and dark skin. Usually it is Middle Eastern, Indian and Hispanic women, along with women from some places from the Med who arent all white in their background.
I am SO not attracted to blond women, especially. But you know what? That is OKAY. I am not ashamed of being white, far from it, I was born in Europe and fully get into aspects of my European background, I just not attracted to white women.
It isnt a slam on anyone or anything, it is personal preference, nothing more.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 8:14 am ¶
Ken Mitchell wrote:
@Rachel – I certainly don’t think that attraction to difference is inherently bad, especially when coupled with a predisposition of open-mindedness to people whose situations and attributes are not your own. But I think you might differ from the typical person who is instantly attracted to difference — I would imagine that fetishization of physical attributes predominates, as opposed to envisioning a learning opportunity as you are so inclined.
With regards to, “I think it’s safe to assume (though I’m open to disagreement) that someone of a different perceived race will have different experiences than you on some level,” I’m inclined to agree with you on this. Even if you’re wrong, it may be even more fascinating to discover just how similar you are.
@TierList E – I feel you on the impasse thing. Look for Part Two where I’ll talk about people being unwilling to move beyond a preestablished set of attributes.
@DivergentDana – interesting questions. I don’t think one has to be attracted to members “on a regular basis,” as you said, to respect and appreciate one’s own racial group. I don’t think, however, that it’s fair to say that one appreciates a race’s physical attributes but is never in practice attracted to them (but never, of course, is a big absolute).
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 9:06 am ¶
Ken Mitchell wrote:
@Elton – Thanks for the compliment and the question. When I was a bit younger, I really tried to divorce myself from my roots (I wasn’t born in the South, mind you, but I was the first in my family not to have been born there) and highlight all the ways in which I was different. As an adult, however, I’ve become the family genealogist and have taken an intense interest in learning about my family history, geographies, and cultures. I’ve learned to appreciate and embrace how my family’s Southern origins have been formative in making my ‘estilo,’ as it were.
@jvansteppes – “This is highly dependent on where you live…”
Absolutely, and that is one of the first caveats I will mention in my next writing — that it will my individual perspective on my immediate environment only and cannot be (knowingly) applied to the letter to any other locality. Good point.
@Darkrose – It’s a true San Francisco love story — We met on a street corner at the Folsom Street Fair! But it’s not what most would assume, given the location… :p
@Abu Sinan – I personally wouldn’t have a problem with you stating your preferences, because you don’t limit the physical attributes that you appreciated to a single race or ethnicity.
But first you say, “I am not SO attracted to blond women…” followed by “I just [sic] not attracted to white women.” The former statement acknowledges your proclivities but doesn’t automatically exclude a whole ethnicity and/or race b/c of physical attributes; the latter statement seems to do just the opposite… It’s when statements like the latter are true that I think people really need to examine why they feel this way.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 9:52 am ¶
lunanoire wrote:
I am looking to hear more about the racial hierarchy as it applies to notions of femininity/masculinity in queer IR.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 11:58 am ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
Ken,
I guess it would have been better to say that I am not usually attracted to white women.
Why? Race has nothing to do with. It has to do with my taste. I like dark hair, dark eyes and dark skin.
You might not be aware of it, but there are many Arabs who have blond hair, are very light, blue eyes. I wouldnt care for them either. They are not “white” in a racial sense, but “white” in a skin colour sense.
What attracts me to women is olive complexion, the darker the better, and dark hair and dark eyes.
White women, no matter their race, just dont fit in.
The race issue you pointed out might have been valid if I had said that I do not like European women. However, as not all “white women” are European, that would be an incorrect description of my tastes. As not all Europeans are “white” that wouldnt work either.
It isnt a race or an ethnicity thing, it is a preference. I dislike light skinned Indian or Arab women, I prefer darker skinned women.
The idea that “white” means European is a racist stereotype and doesnt hold up to fact. One of my better friends is a Palestinian, he is lighter than I am, has red hair and blue eyes. His sister has platnum blond hair with blue eyes and could have been a pin up girl for the Nazi Party, but their family is Arab and has been in Palestine for as long as they can trace it back, some 1000 years.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 12:54 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
As to WHY I feel that way? I think it is normal to be attracted to people who differ from you. As I am tall, white, blond hair and blue eyed, I like people who look different from myself.
Why is it that some people think there must be wrong with someone who like people who are different from themselves? That presumes that the base line mind function is to be attracted to only your own kind.
I think that is false.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 12:55 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:
@Abu Sinan
You may not know this, but “presuming that the base line mind function is to be attracted to your own kind” is a common explanation why people *don’t* date outside their own race. That mostly comes from white people, and men at that, but not 100% (my own brother being one exception). My ideal perfect man (physically) would both have traits quite different from and eerily similar to mine.
That’s why I’m reluctant to say attraction is ever “hardwired” for anything or anybody, and mostly a mixture of individual and societal tastes, possibly with some hormonal something thrown in.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 1:25 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:
@Ken Mitchell
Although I read everything on Racialicious I usually don’t post on the interracial dating threads because they aren’t usually interesting to me, for a constellation of reasons–some personal and some political. But I wanted to say that I really liked your post and the discussion it has engendered. I’m not queer but I also see the value of a non-heteronormative perspective on this topic.
I think race, like sex, is so personal and integral that it is effortless to universalize it from a single perspective. Posts like yours help to open that up in a really positive way. I’m glad you are going to post again.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 1:27 pm ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
Tier:
“That’s why I’m reluctant to say attraction is ever “hardwired” for anything or anybody, and mostly a mixture of individual and societal tastes, possibly with some hormonal something thrown in.”
Spot on.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 1:49 pm ¶
Ken Mitchell wrote:
@Abu Sinan — Your restatement of preference in Post #35 is what I inferred from your -first- previous statement, that of “I am not SO attracted to white women.” Nuance is important and I wasn’t implying that there is problem with your preferences. What I was saying was that you seemed to state two different sets of preferences — thanks for the clarification.
“The race issue you pointed out might have been valid if I had said that I do not like European women. However, as not all “white women” are European, that would be an incorrect description of my tastes. As not all Europeans are “white” that wouldnt work either.
The idea that “white” means European is a racist stereotype and doesnt hold up to fact…”
At first I was inclined to disagree outright with you, but instead I will assert that what “white” means is highly, highly context specific. In the United States, white women are European. The converse isn’t so true here, but as race is constructed in the US, the overwhelming majority of Europeans are considered to be white, Anglo or not.
White equaling European isn’t a stereotype — it’s a reality of social construction, one that is valid for the US. But as I said before, it’s largely context-specific.
@Joseph – Thanks. Universality is difficult, and perhaps dangerous in some circumstances — in my next post I will certainly stress that I’m speaking for my own perspective of my own immediate environment. Readers are then free to apply my situation to theirs to whatever degree they choose.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 2:25 pm ¶
Lka wrote:
This was a beautiful essay! Also, it inspired me to read some Countee Cullen poems. I am enjoying them so far, and saw a poem by him (which you’ve probably read) that I thought was sort of sweet and which reminded me of your essay, making kind of a tidy circle between essay and poet and poet and essay, so I thought I’d post it here (and if anyone can explain the last two lines, I’d really appreciate it):
TABLEAU
Locked arm in arm they cross the way,
The black boy and the white,
The golden splendor of the day,
The sable pride of night.
From lowered blinds the dark folk stare,
And here the fair folk talk,
Indignant that these two should dare
In unison to walk.
Oblivious to look and work
They pass, and see no wonder
That lightning brilliant as a sword
Should blaze the path of thunder.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 2:38 pm ¶
Jen* wrote:
LKA ~ on the most literal level, I’m getting that the two boys are symbolized by the lightning and the murmurings of disapproving eyes would run as a fair comparison with thunder.
It is a beautiful poem. I’ve loved Countee Cullen ever since I came across ‘Incident’, when I was a teenager. (I memorized that one.) But ‘Tableau’ really does bring you back to this very post. Good find.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 3:34 pm ¶
Ken Mitchell wrote:
@Lka – Just taking a stab at it here, but I think the “lightning” could refer to the visual shock effect experienced by onlookers, which precedes the presumably “thunderous” reactions of the same.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 5:15 pm ¶
Elton wrote:
@Abu Sinan
“it is personal preference, nothing more.”
Oh, please. One opinion always seems to intrude into honest, critically-examined discussions of race and attraction: the “I don’t see race,” colorblind coverup of one’s own obviously racially-motivated “personal” preferences.
It is not a sin to admit that race, stereotypes, media messages, and societal expectations influence not only you, but everyone. Talking about race does not make you a racist–it simply makes you a realist. To deny that you are part of society’s tangled web of race is to arrogantly declare that you are beyond race, that you are untouched by the world around you, and, hypocritically, that race doesn’t matter to you, when, invariably, those who live in this state of denial seem to be obsessed with race.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 7:18 pm ¶
bdsista wrote:
Ken, this has provoked some of the most intelligent dialogue in a while. I am not gay, but being in the arts I rarely get the perspective of gay love so sensitively written, since I am often around the flamboyantly gay men who like hanging around flamboyant women (of whatever preference as my gaydar for women is non existent). But you have given this straight sista the thought to throw asides the maxims taught by her father (similar to your mother) and take a chance on IRD. I have done it in the past, but the racist parents/grandparents I couldn’t be taken home to always derailed the relationship which make me rather guarded so as not to be someone’s rite of passage or chocolate fantasy. But it also makes me dismissive of almost all attention from white males. Hispanic men tend not to be attracted to me, (but maybe its b/c I have been told I look PR) and I am wary of those whose culture I think is patriarchal and will do a bait and switch (think Arabs, Indians, Africans). So Asian men I find are interesting but few approach you in the DC metro area. They seem to be more friendly on the West Coast. I digress…. You make me want to open my mind (and my heart) to the possibility of love beyond my internal boundaries. I will post more on my fledgling blog some time soon. Thanks for lifting the veil and inspiring me.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 9:40 pm ¶
ZK wrote:
Very good article. Thanks for this.
I’m about as white, eg, anglo-saxon American who has no connection to any European cultural roots, as you can get. Dirty blond hair, blue eyes, day-glo white skin. Yeah, I guess I’m a WASP.
My girlfriend is… her family is from Northern Spain and Cuba, but her immediate family has pigment and “Mediterranean” hair for some unknown genetic reason. So in some circles [for example, if she goes to Harlem] she is considered white and in others [such as mainstream US society] she is not considered white.
For us, race really does not matter; the whole lesbian thing matters way more. As well as the gender thing — I pass as a male quite often. Her mother CONSTANTLY calls me ‘he.’
Anyhow, she has definitely has had relationships where race mattered a lot more. Maybe because she dated mostly men before she dated me? Straight couples are already “more ideal” than gay couples so I think it’s more noticeable if they deviate. For instance, she broke up with the Jewish boyfriend when his family called her “shiksa” in a hateful, non-joking way and he tried to defend them.
Before her, I just dated white people. I was in Utah. It was hard enough to find women to date in high school in Utah. I even dated a man… even though I’m maybe a 5 on the Kinsey scale.
Anyhow. Interracial stuff in the LGBT world is very important to talk about, yes.
Once I went to a “diversity talk” about interracial dating organized by my school’s Black Student Association. All of the black women [single-sex school] were completely slamming interracial relationships because the ‘white women were robbing the black men from us’ and condemning the ‘white man for asserting his slavemaster power over the black woman.’ I was basically rendered speechless because it was such a heteronormative and gender-stereotypical discussion… not to mention race-stereotypical. And… it was like they didn’t think of anything other than black/white relationships.
As for the question of who I’m attracted to, I find that it’s more of a gender issue than a race issue. I am not attracted to feminine women who wear tons of makeup, no matter what race they are. If I see a white woman with highlighted and straightened and perfectly styled blond hair, tight clothing, and eye shadow… or if I see a black woman with eye shadow and a very intensely styled hairdo and tight clothing… etc… I’m not attracted to either woman.
Men are trickier; it’s just so rare for me to be attracted to them that I can’t really pin down what attracts me to a man. I’m so gay; I can’t remember the last time I looked at a man and thought, “he’s hot.”
My girlfriend wears skirts, but she doesn’t “act” like a shallow hyperfeminine woman and doesn’t wear makeup and doesn’t spend 5 hours on her hair. She also likes movies. A lot. And she’s interesting. So we work well together.
Anyway, my point is this: Good article.
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 11:22 pm ¶
Katie wrote:
I too really like this post, and appreciate a queer perspective.
I’ve been thinking about the “one should examine one’s (possibly problematic) desires” argument that’s been floated in the comments, and want to challenge it a little. I’ve seen this argument used in another context – in (primarily second-wave) feminist critiques of BDSM. What happens when I examine my desires and find them racist and fetishistic? What then? Am I obligated to date against the grain, as it were, to fix myself? Or is the process of self-examination intended to change one’s hard-wiring?
Also, that this process of self-examination is required only by people who date outside their phenotype is, I think, problematic. Growing up in this ultraracist culture, who of us has not internalized messages that stereotype and categorize people’s appearances?
I believe that a much more sensible, and less vaguely scolding, approach would be to fight for people’s right to love whoever they want, and to be treated as individuals. To me, that means fighting racist and fetishistic language and attitudes rather than making individuals accountable for who/what turns them on.
As an Asian American woman, my problem has not been with people who find AA women attractive, but people who approach me as nothing BUT Asian. “Where are you from?” “What’s your background?” “No, where are you *really* from?” All that crap. Fetishes, and even preferences, are generally outside our control – why make it seem otherwise? I’d prefer that fetishes and race preferences didn’t exist, but while they do, why not advocate for fetishism with integrity, or race preference with an anti-racist sensibility?
Posted 07 Jun 2008 at 7:06 am ¶
Katie wrote:
Some background on my argumentation can be found here:
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/10/19/bdsm-examine-your-desires/
and here:
http://trinityva.livejournal.com/718012.html?view=3958460#t3958460
Posted 07 Jun 2008 at 7:07 am ¶
TierList E wrote:
@Katie
I actually understand what you’re saying, and I want to challenge a bit back.
I don’t wish for people to uncover is less savory reasons to just make them uncomfortable, but to stop the cycle. Once you’re for something it would be very hard to like otherwise, so you shouldn’t “date against the grain” as you put it, but I would want these people to know that these preferences are not based on some inherent superiority/inferiority of a type of woman (or man), so they will up the diversity of beauty in the future so people in the future will have a more equal footing. I don’t know that will occur if no one examines their preferences.
: D And, as a black woman, I would probably benefit a bit more than you if someone did go through an epiphany with beauty norms and broaden their horizons.
Posted 07 Jun 2008 at 3:53 pm ¶
mr guy wrote:
Great article ken.At one point I thought my parents were pretty open when it came to who I could marry.Race for both of them wasn’t the focus, she didn’t have to be black only.However they do have a limit.Being gay is a line I could never cross, and I would never be accepted by my parents or extended family.Lucky for them I’m straight.But it’s REAAAALLLLY taboo in my family.I dunno if its because of religion or because most of my family is made up of Jamaican immigrants.
Posted 07 Jun 2008 at 4:54 pm ¶
rightfullyangry wrote:
My comment here is completely honest. I rarely post, but I feel like there was too much of one perspective being expressed.
@Katie: I think to “fight for people’s right to love whoever they want” because it’s easier and less scolding than actually examining your “personal” preferences is frankly ridiculous. First of all, as we become more conscious of social inequities and the ways we’ve been socialized, we often change our views on many things. And I think we have been socialized to know who is/isn’t attractive from birth from a variety of sources. Thus, it is completely possible to change your so-called “hard-wired” dating preferences as you grow more conscious, whether that leads you towards or away interracial relationships. As an straight-leaning Asian-American woman, I can very easily see that I (and the general mainstream US and many other parts of the world) was socialized to value tall, light-skinned, muscular men with strong jaw bones. Asian men phenotypically are shorter and have softer jaw lines than white men, which I do not doubt has had an affect on my taste. As I grew more conscious, I completely realized that there was a sick perfectness to my relationship to my white Jewish ex-boyfriend, where I loved feeling so little and we would remark about our size difference often, among other gross interracial fantasies. It is so common in Asian-Am communities (as a reflection of mainstream US/world views) that white is right and anything dark is bad. I truly feel that the epidemic of Asian women (and men) getting plastic surgery to “whiten” their noses and eyes is the same issue that is going on with the masses of Asian women/White men couples. While I believe that two spiritually- and socially-nuanced people of different races (and I am talking more about white and nonwhite mixing, because I feel like there can be very different issues between two POC) can have a healthy relationship that involves none of the problems the author details in (a) through (d), I do believe such a couple is rare. We need to stop pretending that love happens in a social vacuum. We have to be okay with seriously analyzing ourselves, whether we end up changing or not.
@ Rachel: To continue this complete honesty, my sister is with a white Jewish woman from California, and, combined with many other experiences I have had, I feel like there is a penchant in the progressive Jewish community towards interracial dating and general appreciation for other cultures. I have to say that I feel this appreciation often crosses the line into fetishization. (I welcome your insights.) My sister’s partner’s family home is decorated with so many Asian souvenirs from their many privileged travels to Asian countries (her mom goes to the continent almost every year; so much more than I’ve had the chance to have); and the stuff in my sister and her partner’s apartment is full of Asian things, most of which come from her family, not mine!! I guess my issue is with white liberal culture in general (which is of course made up of more than, but significantly composed of, Jewish liberals), and I know I’m straying here, and their love of Asian objects (food, buddha statues, religions, people as objects), but frequent lack of understanding of Asian/Asian-Am/Third World people’s experiences, plights, etc. For example: “I am so into yoga and Buddhism,” and, at the same time, “How could anyone eat chicken’s feet?” Anyway, I guess I am wary of the idea of being attracted to difference, because it sounds like someone could be romantically entering a world they are unfamiliar with but enchanted by. It’s hard for me to imagine this scenario without an element of fetishization. In my experience, when it comes to interactions between white liberals and marginalized peoples, the former too often wants to learn the mysterious ways of the latter.
Thank you for letting me be honest, even if it wasn’t the friendliest.
Posted 07 Jun 2008 at 5:27 pm ¶
Luis wrote:
Nicolás Guillén is the truth!
I know it wasn’t the point of your post (which was excellent), but thanks for getting his name out to English-speakers nonetheless.
Everyone else: go read Guillén.
Posted 08 Jun 2008 at 5:44 pm ¶
Ken Mitchell wrote:
@bdsista – I appreciate your senstively written response. I don’t know if my partner’s mother has an issue with me being black (I imagine she does), but she’s deeply religious and her primary issue is her son’s sexuality. I am glad to hear that you are re-considering trying an IR, and I’m honoured that my writing played a part in your decision.
@ZK – Yes, it seems like race is not much of a factor for your own partner determination, and it’s quite interesting to add gender preferences into the mix. And for your ‘diversity talk,’ I was thinking the same thing about the lack of acknowledgement of anything other than black-white IRs.
@Katie – Fetishes SHOULD exist (absolutely!!), but I know that I personally question why someone has a race-based fetish. For instance, there’s a recurring Craigslist ad I notice that specifically seeks out politically incorrect power imbalance (for the record, it’s a white guy looking to use racial slurs with minorities, among other activities). While that isn’t a question of love, I have seen similar extended to ‘loving’ relationships — for example, the older dominant white male lover who enjoyed noose play with his sub black male lover. I think both people needed to take a step back from the situation for many reasons.
@TierListE – Good point, as you can see from my response above I was going in a arather different direction in my reaction to Katie’s comments, but I like yours as well.
@mr guy – Without knowing anything about your family, I would say that being Jamaican is likely much more than half the reason for your family’s reaction, and that religion proabably compunds the matter.
@rightfullyangry – my intial reaction was to balk at the notion of progressive Jews leaning toward (fetishized) IR’s, but i can only speak for the three progressive California Jewish communities with which I am familiar. I would assert, based on those experiences, that the predilection might have more to do with same-sex relationships in California than with progressive Judaism. But I can’t say that with any certainty — just my perspective.
@Luis – Guillén is definitely my favourite Cuban poet. I dig Nancy Morejón as well…
Posted 09 Jun 2008 at 6:24 pm ¶
CarmenVj wrote:
A very interesting conversation and a great read.. And I see many of you here are quite comfortable with who you are . And that is a great thing. You are being who you are and you are dating or married to what and who you like. We all have a preference. If anything, just make sure you are happy because that is the most important thing in the world. And be with who you want to be with no matter what anybody saids. Live your life:)
Posted 11 Jun 2008 at 9:52 pm ¶