I Didn’t Want the Police
by M.Dot, originally published at Model Minority
Yesterday I was in the train station not feeling too hot. The outfit was fly, but I just was not in the mood for the juvenile attention that the outfit seemed to provoke. As if clothes provoke behavior. These young men all have home training, whether they choose to use it is something completely different.
As I stood on the platform, alone, as I just gotten off the express to get the local, a young buck, approximately 17 years old Black male, grazed my book and said “Why you touch me?”
I responded.
“What? You touched me”.
Then he walked up on me.
Typically, I would be all for the teaching moment. Or even challenging him on some “Fall back ock.”
But.
I had had a long day. Mercury is clearly in retrograde, as I attempted to go to a meeting, but it that was actually on Friday night, not Saturday morning. Then I went to brunch and I realized I left my wallet home. The wallet was in another bag and I failed to transfer it back over. I tried to put together a little “Welcome back M.dot” get-together for Saturday night, but I had to cancel it because of conflicts with schedules.
I was bummed out.
So yeah. I had had it and it wasn’t even 2pm yet.
But the day had improved because I got a few books from the library, one of which was. “Shadowboxing, Black Feminist Representations” by Joy James, which is what I was reading when the young man bumped into me. In fact, at the time of the incident, I was reading a sentence where Angela Y. Davis, was speaking on the need to eradicate the prison system as it exists today.
So back to the young man.
He walked up on me, and both I paid it mind, but then paid it no mind. I had been getting harassed all day. Sad to say, but I was partially desensitized.
He mumbled something, and I did my, “Why are you enraged, what’s the problem?” Looking back at that moment, he was slightly
pacing like a lion.
There was no one else in our area of the platform.
Then it changed.
He walked up on me again, and said, cocked his head, and said “Don’t touch me, I will do something to you.”
My inner M.dot said, word?
Hood training stipulates that, at that moment I needed to have agency.
Run or Knuckle up.
I immediately thought I am over here, by myself, with two bags and a four books in my hand.
No one else is on this part of the platform.
I turned and ran up the stairs, I looked back. He was following me.
I proceeded to the police station, looked back and he was still following me.
I walked into the police station. He followed me in.
I didn’t want to do it ya’ll. Right now I am working on a position paper to address the Preschool to Prison Pipeline and one of the major things that I am advocating for is for support and intervention for young men that doesn’t involve the police as the primary method of intervention.
The idea is for the young men to interact with two or three people before the police gets involved with the notion that once they are involved in the courts, the dehumanization process has started and that there is very difficult to recover from that.
So, I walked into the police station and said, this young man is harassing me.
Get this, as soon as I said that, he started speaking over me saying that, I was harassing him.
I kid you not.
It was like it was a game for him. Like we were both high schoolers and going to the principal’s office to tattle.
NYPD is not a game.
The burley white officer says, “One of you’se wait outside”.
I sat down on the bench in the station.
The young man waited outside.
Popo comes over to me asks what happened. He is all business. It’s odd because I am both emotional and rational. I hesitate because I can’t believe I am sitting there, as the words come out, I realize emotionally what just happened and it f*cks me up a little bit. I am sitting on the bench and the officer is standing over me, and another Latina officer, in plain clothes joins him, as an observer. She is quiet.
He first asks me if I know him. I tell him what happened. The whole time I am thinking, I don’t want to be here, I don’t want
to be talking to him, I just want to go the coffee shop and work on my blog post and short stories.
The officers asks if I want to him to be held.
I am thinking, “Man, I live over here, I might see this kid again”. But then, the young man is wild enough and presumably unstable enough to follow me into a police station, him being held is irrelevant.
Potentially seeing him again is something I have no control over.
I tell the police, that I am just going to remove myself from the situation and go take a bus on the street. They tell me that they are going to hold and question him anyways, “Just so that, you know, he can tell his side” and I think to myself, why did they asked me if thats what their procedure was in the first place? I got up. Walked out. The young man walked in. I proceed to the bus stop, noticed Filth called and called him back.
Ironically, when that crane fell on Thursday, my momma called me to see if I was okay. I was like “Momma, there is more of a chance of something happening to me in Oakland than here” as Oakland had been experiencing a series of BRAZEN daylight robberies by teenagers.
I now eat my words.
I am okay.
I am grateful for my intuition, my god given intuition which told me to have agency when the young man said “he would do something to me”.
*I checked Mercury’s status while editing this piece.
It’s comforting that I was accurate.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of 
gatamala wrote:
I didn’t want to do it ya’ll. Right now I am working on a position paper to address the Preschool to Prison Pipeline and one of the major things that I am advocating for is for support and intervention for young men that doesn’t involve the police as the primary method of intervention.
The idea is for the young men to interact with two or three people before the police gets involved with the notion that once they are involved in the courts, the dehumanization process has started and that there is very difficult to recover from that.
Shame they don’t care for us as much as we care for them.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 9:09 am ¶
cosmicsistren wrote:
Sorry that happened to you and I understand your dilemna about bringing police involved but you should have had that bastard arrested. It is clearly obvious that he doesn’t have any respect for women and you were probably not the first or the last woman that he stepped to like that.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 9:17 am ¶
femaleperson wrote:
That kid sounds like a time bomb. And from your description of the situation, I’m thinking the boy has a mental illness. Lord, this is sad.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 9:55 am ¶
Persia wrote:
M.dot, three cheers for your intuition. It’s a tough call to make, but clearly you did the right thing.
cosmicsistren, gatamala: Is this really a ‘typical young man’ thing? (You can tell I don’t live in a city.) He almost sounded mentally ill to me.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 9:56 am ¶
L-K wrote:
This isn’t a “typical young man” thing. He straight out threatened her. I think you and femaleperson are right, from M.Dot’s description, there seems to be something else going on with him.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 10:23 am ¶
DEAF FEMINIST PUNK!! wrote:
Ugh. Sometimes I wish we have “modesty police” like they do in Iran. So that way if any man tries to harrass us, we can go to the “modesty police,” without actually getting any COPS involved.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 10:27 am ¶
dave wrote:
i’m sorry that happened to you. for what its worth, i think that in order to help other people you have to mind your own personal safety first in the most appropriate way in any given moment. and i think you did that, even though it was hard for you.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 10:31 am ¶
Eva wrote:
I am sorry that happened to you. He should have been arrested because he sounds like a time bomb.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 10:47 am ¶
m.dot wrote:
Thank you all for your comments, kind words and for sharing. There was something wrong with the young man.
My understanding of mental illness stipulates that the more chaos the mentally ill cause externally, the more at peace/stable they feel inside. His following me into the police station was clearly a sign of *wanting* to create chaos.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 11:15 am ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
@ m.dot–
…I feel where you’re coming from because 1) you didn’t want to contribute to putting yet another Black man into the prison complex yet 2) you needed to protect yourself, and part of that protection is not being silent about what happened, and even “doing something about it,” even though that “doing something” meant possibly putting a Black man into the prison complex.
Friend, you did what you needed to do. *Hugs*
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 11:38 am ¶
Kaonashi wrote:
No one wants to get the police involved, but look at it this way; people generally get the police involved when people are actively doing things that would warrant it.
He bumped into you accidently on purpose, tried to engage you repeatedly and when you tried to remove yourself from the situation FOLLOWED you when another kid would have just left it at the beginning stage. What were you supposed to do, give him a cookie? This kid was spoiling for a fight and no matter what you did he was going to bring it–maybe by punching you in the face if you were lucky, or shoving you on the El tracks in the path of a train if not.
I would have done the same thing you did and slept well. In a world where girls get shot for not giving out their telephone numbers, personal safety trumps everything else.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 11:39 am ¶
Sean wrote:
I guess everyone’s favorite villan has struck again…..the dreaded black man.
I’ll echo the sentiment- I’m truly sorry this happened to you. Though I admit I may have missed something, I’m not really sure if the description “17 years old black male” was a necessary addition to the story.
I guess we’re all “monsters under the bed” now.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 11:54 am ¶
gatamala wrote:
Persia~this kind of behavior is not typical.
He is disturbed and he is dangerous.
His bumping in to her was battery. “Don’t touch me I will do something to you” is an assault.
Him treating it as a game = anti-social personality disorder.
W/o meds, therapy (this is where m.dot’s alternatives come in) and detention (psychiatric), this guy will kill somebody.
Man, I live over here, I might see this kid again
THIS, coupled with the NYPD’s “actions”, is why folks are hesitant to call out predators in their midst.
Stay safe.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 12:17 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:
Sean~ I see where you’re coming from, but you did miss something. Look at the title of her position paper.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 12:20 pm ¶
octogalore wrote:
Sean — I think that was the very point, to demonstrate her ambivalence. Because she did not wish to be part of a flawed sterotype.
M.dot — I join the chorus of others who feel you did the right thing to protect yourself. Kaonashi is right, you gave him a number of outs and he continued to follow you.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 12:37 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
@ Sean–I think m.dot’s describing the young man’s race is relevant because she wanted the readers to understand that she was very aware that her act could have caused (or continued) a cycle of another young Black man getting into the trouble with the police.
And I certainly didn’t take away from this post the idea tha m.dot was blaming or demonizing all African American men or boys. No blanket statements or conclusions about Black boys or men.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 12:43 pm ¶
Mayake wrote:
I’m sorry to hear about what happened to you. My sister was threatened by a young man with a knife on a subway platform, just because she didn’t respond to his advances -she ignored him and he pulled a knife. If not for the courage of 4 women, who surrounded her in the face of this fool who would not put his knife away even then, my sis would not be here today. My sis is black and so is the guy with the knife. Any sarcastic “monster” comments now???
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 12:54 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:
First: I’m sorry that happened to you. It is fucked up.
Second: Ask yourself honestly if this had a been a white boy threatening you would you have done the same thing? If he was chasing you and there hadn’t been police handy but a barbershop would you have walked in and asked for help? A Chinese restaurant? An Irish bar? A Mosque?
Sure you would.
Because your life is precious.
I respect and admire your conscious reflection but if you have the “hood training” you referenced in your post then you already know you did the right thing. Nobody has the right to threaten you with violence.
Nobody.
I am glad you are safe.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 1:04 pm ¶
AC wrote:
Sean - seriously? Your analysis seems a bit unfair and silencing to me. Right now as I read this my brother, whom I think of as the “typical black male”, is downstairs playing with (re:distracting) his 2 yr old daughter and his 4 yr old son so Mommy can check her email and read her blogs for a bit.
Previous commentators have already clarified that this does not seem typical but that this specific individual seemed “off”. Could Mdot have written the entire post without describing him? Yes she could have, but then we would not have had any context on her reluctance to involve the police and her subsequent guilt. It is because this was a young black male that she would have liked to have resolved the situation differently.
The messages of support are not to demonize (further) young black men, or to congratulate her for going (seemingly) against what she practices and teaches. The messages of support are to reassure her that she did what she had to do to protect her safety. As a woman, or even just a human being in this world, you have to listen to your instincts about your personal safety at any given moment and act. Even if such actions end up having foreseeable consequences for the other individual.
At the end of the day we can only do what MDot has done, which is to inform ourselves of the existence and interplay of these societal problems, and, being so aware, judiciously weigh our decisions of when and where to involve the police.
In my read I don’t see where MDot had much of a choice in her actions. You don’t know whether this guy was armed and what exactly he was capable of, only that he was seeking some sort of confrontation and all the way into the police station? That’s just pretty damn chilling.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 1:05 pm ¶
Fatemeh wrote:
Scary.
Unfortunately, sometimes we have to make a decision between ourselves and our larger communities. You did what was best for yourself, and that was the right thing to do.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 1:40 pm ¶
atlasien wrote:
Several years ago I lived in an apartment with an upstairs neighbor who was slowly going mad. In retrospect, it was classic schizophrenia. He would knock on our door and accuse us of banging on the pipes (auditory hallucinations). Also, apparently schizophrenics are not violent at all, unless they are also abusing substances that lower our natural inhibition against violence, and he was abusing those substances, and very heavily. One day after many days of escalating strange behavior, he waited until he saw my husband leave, then kept knocking on my door and saying “let me in, I want to f**k you”. I told him I was going to call the police unless he went away, he didn’t, so I called them.
They came, and his lucidity returned, and he successfully persuaded them it was all just a friendly misunderstanding, so they left! I was completely freaked. My family all came over and we spent the next few days in a state of siege. Then he fell over the edge again, stabbed himself, left blood all over the apartment, ran outside and told a liquor store clerk that his roommate (who was nowhere near and hadn’t been for some time) was the one who had stabbed him, then ran off again into the night. He survived… his roommate and I were eventually able to get him committed temporarily and his family took him home.
I learned a lot of lessons about mental health from this terrifying episode, but the fact that he was a young black man actually did not factor heavily into how things played out. Probably because of where we live (most of the police are black) and the fact that we knew he came from a very well-off family. I think the police initially wrote me off as a hysterical female, even though I thought I presented the facts to them very logically. If they had listened to me more in the beginning, a lot of grief and a messy stabbing might have been avoided. But I also have to credit the police as well for finally taking him in, after the committing order, without violence.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 2:31 pm ¶
Dr. Dee wrote:
There is an assumption among some that when people behave “irrationally” then mental illness must be the culprit. But, I don’t think this young man behaved all that irrationally. This young man’s attitude and behavior seem pretty “normal” to me (though normal people can be some of the most frightening). It’s very possible that the police could have believed this young man, could have actually considered that the woman in the police station accusing him of harassment was lying! In the world I live in, when a woman says she’s been harassed, threatened, or assaulted, men and women–regardless of racial identification–seem to become overwhelmingly skeptical. In this instance, there were no witnesses, and it was simply her word against his. There is a tendency for many people–regardless of race and gender–to believe women who say they have been assaulted, raped, or in some other way victimized are simply bitter, conniving, and vengeful. Is it possible that the young man on that subway platform followed this woman into the police station with such confidence because he knew by doing so and saying she assaulted him that he could throw doubt on whatever his accuser said? I think it’s very possible.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 3:00 pm ¶
superchunk12 wrote:
M.Dot, thank you for sharing, and for illuminating what so many women of color go through on almost a daily basis. I am so thankful you are safe, your thought process is remarkable.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 3:03 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but the fact that the guy followed her into the police station suggests that he’s not all there. Every time I have been followed, I have shed the man by going to the nearest location with police, security, firemen, hospital ER driveway, or sizable business with lots of customers. And this is white on white stalking. It’s too bad if the police don’t ID this guy as a nut but consider him a garden variety stalker.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 3:43 pm ¶
Morgan wrote:
“Second: Ask yourself honestly if this had a been a white boy threatening you would you have done the same thing? If he was chasing you and there hadn’t been police handy but a barbershop would you have walked in and asked for help? A Chinese restaurant? An Irish bar? A Mosque?”
true story-in Boston, say 1999, i actually was chased by a psychotic white man (i am white also) with a knife, as he was angry that i “taunted him” by wearing a skirt that was about mid-calf. despite being an anti-prison activist at the time, i went to the police. it was not easy, but, come on, i wasn’t going to die. the police let him go on his merry way and drove me home, chastising me for being female and out on the street alone late at night. i am confident that i did the right thing, as i am still alive, but i am sure if it had been a black man, it would have been a different story. the slut shaming didn’t help.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 3:46 pm ¶
kiki wrote:
He followed you into the police station? Jesús, María y José…thank goodness you’re okay. Always trust your gut.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 3:56 pm ¶
sylvie wrote:
i think we all know when we’re in the presence of crazy. for m.dot to know he’s crazy AND still think about the greater good gets all my respect. admittedly, when i’m out alone at night, i run from everyone.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 4:08 pm ¶
Chica Dificil wrote:
@ m.dot
your personal safety precedes ALL! listening 2 ur intuition is key.
the piece that affected me most is how we as POC respond to the pohlice with OUR OWN LEVEL OF MENTAL ILLNESS –> PTSD type responses based on direct or vicarious experiences of police brutality.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 4:16 pm ¶
jsb16 wrote:
I’m glad you’re safe. I’m not sure this particular young man was mentally ill, unless a sizable fraction of the high school population is mentally ill. Then again, I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if there were a sizable number of sociopathic high schoolers, given some of the behavior I’ve seen.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 5:08 pm ¶
Cecelia wrote:
Glad you are safe! Listening to our intuition is powerful isn’t it?!
I was chased on someone on a bike when I was a runner several years back. I was running at dusk on a busy road and boom out of no where this man was following me on his bike! Funny thing is the bike made screechy and scary noises. I too listened to my intuition and darted quickly ahead and down a side street and another side street until he was out sight! It was freaky because of th noise of the bike, the fact it was dusk and the street lights just came on and that he had a creepy vibe. But I just sped up the pace and out ran him so to speak!
Intuition if followed is always a winner!
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 6:15 pm ¶
G.K. wrote:
To Dr. Dee:
Are you for real? There was NOTHING normal about this young man’s actions—to hear m.dot describe it, she was just minding her own business when this psycho punk decided to take it upon himself to threaten her simply because she was a female, and also because he felt like he could get away with doing whatever the hell he wanted to do her, and he figured she wasn’t going to do anything about it precisely BECAUSE she was a female. He wouldn’t have dared to try and pull that s*** with another man, I’m sure of that.
That’s the thing about being a women in the inner city–some men automatically assume simply because you’re a female that you’re weak/not a threat/easy pickings to prey on, and God forbid you should run into
one that happens to be a nut—that’s even worse. Bottom line, M.Dot did what she had to do to protect herself—she had no way of knowing what the hell this guy was going to do if and when he snapped. SHe did the right thing.
To Cecelia:
I second that part about following your intuition–ALWAYS listen to that nagging feeling inside that’s warning you not to go here or do this or that—I found that out from first hand experience—it mgiht save your life (yeah, I know that sounds like a cliche, but it’s true,dang it! )
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 7:04 pm ¶
G. K. wrote:
To Dr. Dee:
There’s NOTHING normal about a total stranger suddenly picking on you for no reason at all, threatening you, then following you around when you’re already told them more than once to leave you alone. That’s very frightening,especially when you’re a woman alone anywhere in the city. I don’t know what on earth makes you think that whatever this dude did was normal, but it’s ridiculous to think that it was. In my experience, men (in the inner city—especially) automatically assume that they can pick on a lone female because she’s percieved as being weak/isn’t a threat/easy pickings to prey on or mess with.
Anyway, M. Dot did the right thing—there’s no telling what this guy would have done when and if he decided to snap. I also want to second what Cecelia said about following your intuition—always listen to it–it might save you at a critical time.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 8:10 pm ¶
m.dot wrote:
Second: Ask yourself honestly if this had a been a white boy threatening you would you have done the same thing? If he was chasing you and there hadn’t been police handy but a barbershop would you have walked in and asked for help? A Chinese restaurant? An Irish bar? A Mosque?
Sure you would.
Because your life is precious.
=====
Dios Mio. Your tone is amazing.
I actually felt a piece of me “recover” while reading that.
Thank you to everyone who saw what a slippery slope it is to involve the police.
It was really affirming to hear:
-I am so thankful you are safe, your thought process is remarkable.
-…only that he was seeking some sort of confrontation and all the way into the police station? That’s just pretty damn chilling.
-for m.dot to know he’s crazy AND still think about the greater good gets all my respect.
Having a community to share with is priceless.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 8:21 pm ¶
vodalus wrote:
this …punk decided to take it upon himself to threaten her simply because she was a female, and also because he felt like he could get away with doing whatever the hell he wanted to do her, and he figured she wasn’t going to do anything about it precisely BECAUSE she was a female. He wouldn’t have dared to try and pull that s*** with another man, I’m sure of that.
Sounds like a typical day in the patriarchy to me.
Calling this kid crazy or sick sounds like making excuses–mental illness does not absolve you from your actions, even if you don’t know that you’re sick yet. Mental illness also does not mean that you really are a ticking time bomb and should be “contained” by the authorities. A lot of the comments have run in this second vein of thought. As a person living with mental illness and working hard to contain myself while building a professional reputation, it is patently offensive to hear the equating of being sick and being jailed. People should never be sequestered for who they are, but based on what they do. What he did was not “crazy”, it was threatening, sexist, racist, classist, et cetera.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 11:19 pm ¶
vodalus wrote:
I feel, in reflection, that I should be very specific that I am bothered only by the comments that are using “crazy” to indicate “criminal” or “dangerous”. I sincerely sympathize with M.Dot’s distress over the event and hate to steal the comments section to discuss the stigma of mental illness.
Posted 03 Jun 2008 at 11:29 pm ¶
Joseph wrote:
@m.dot
I’m glad. Be well.
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 12:31 am ¶
sfsinger wrote:
There should be no excuse for or apologizing about the criminal mentality of some men.
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 12:56 am ¶
Treacle wrote:
To m.dot,
Like many others who have responded here, I am very happy that you went to the police station and reported his harrassing behavior. I genuinely hope you do not run into him as he seems like a very dangerous young man with full intentions to do you harm.
However, I must disagree with your understanding of mental illness. You say, “My understanding of mental illness stipulates that the more chaos the mentally ill cause externally, the more at peace/stable they feel inside.”
I don’t know where you’ve heard that, but it sounds horrible and very much like stereotyping. People do not have to suffer from mental illnesses to behave like, for lack of a better word, assholes. Nor do people with mental illnesses act out because they want attention.
In the same way that it’s important to consider use of language when discussing race, gender, and sexuality, it’s just as important to consider language usage when discussing disability, and mental illnesses are disabilities.
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 2:29 am ¶
Dr. Dee wrote:
Yes, G.K., I am for real. I’ve been following this subject very closely and paying strict attention to what women have been saying about their experiences with strange men (here and on another discussion board). And it seems that stalking, threatening, and accosting is quite “normal” behavior among a certain group of men. There is a particular patriarchal logic that seems crazy to me, but that makes sense to the men who harass and attack women. Since none of us have interviewed the young man or know his diagnosis or even if he has one or should have one, it’s not useful to assume he is suffering from a disorder. I agree with Vodalus, who makes an extremely valid point and is in no way off topic. Simply because someone acts as this young man did does not guarantee that he is mentally ill: People behave in a range of seemingly irrational ways, but they still act along the continuum of the “normal” or the routine. To us it is not rational what this young man did, but it makes perfect sense. The attacker turns the tables on his victim. He uses an ingenious strategy; he attempts to cast doubt on the writer’s credibility.
In fact, you seem to contradict yourself. On the one hand you say this young man picked on this woman because he knew she was vulnerable. Clearly, the young man is able to select a victim based on a number of factors that indicated she would be an easy mark. He didn’t pick on a female cop in uniform, right? He obviously knew what he was doing when he confronted the writer–black, female, alone, well-dressed, carrying books, and minding her own business. This sounds like a scenario many women (myself included) have experienced. If anything I have read and experienced is true, catcalling, rape, harassment, physical assault, and non-consensual touching are normal (routine) experiences if you are a woman and routine (normal) behavior for a significant number of men. If this young man can contemplate accurately who a logical victim will be, then why isn’t he able to think about how he behaves beyond that?
So, my point, which you seemed to have missed, is that the police may very well have believed whatever this young man said precisely because he strode right into the police station without hesitation and spoke clearly and directly. I would like to see the issue dealt with seriously in the political arena. This young man’s actions are criminal and dangerous and part of a larger social and cultural problem, not “abnormal.”
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 3:01 am ¶
sisterpopcorn wrote:
Honestly this type of agressive behavior is not exactly atypical in certain areas. I recently moved from NYC for a number of reasons, one being nearly losing my mind over regular run-ins with these types. And all I was doing was living my life; riding the trains, walking to the trains, walking from the trains, going to libraries, riding my bike, etc.
There is a breed of this young man and they are quickly becoming more common than not. Let’s not deny the general misogynistic attitude that many of that generation have adopted. They will pick you and harass you. They will ask you if you “got a man” then curse you for ignoring them. They will follow you and tell you what violent and or sexual things they want to do to you. I’m not surprised by any of what I read. I’ve seen it and lived it. You must protect yourselves first and foremost and seeking safety was the right thing to do.
Oh and Mayake, I’ve found that it is almost always another woman, or two or more, who steps in to save us when we are verbally or physically accosted.
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 6:40 am ¶
gatamala wrote:
Dr. Dee ~ food for thought. I think M.dot’s assailant went beyond street harrassment.
This past Sunday, a man, who was walking a block behind me started screaming about my ass. Another man was there watching us walk by. Not.one.word. My friend and I were the ones who had to cross the street. This guy knew what he was doing and did it b/c he thought he could.
****
The reaction of the cops is so, so typical. Blame the victim. Any other time they’d be out to crack heads…
The older I get and the longer I stay in the city, the more I believe in the right and duty of self-defense. Not only do I have to contend with abuse from random men, I have to deal with cops that could give 2 fucks (I called the cops on a mentally ill man who was attempting to set my building on fire, they didn’t show up).
I’ll do what I have to do to survive w/o hesitation or apology.
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 8:14 am ¶
macintyre wrote:
Here’s the way I see it. We all have a moral responsibility to try to make the world a better place — in this case, to fight against racism, prisons, and for better treatment of the mentally ill. But we DO NOT have a moral responsibility to be martyrs in our individual lives. You were seriously threatened, and you did exactly the right thing. You did not really have any other option than to go to the police at that moment.
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 9:38 am ¶
macintyre wrote:
Oh, also - Dr. Dee - look, you weren’t there. If M.Dot’s instincts said “crazy,” then you should believe her. Seriously. As others have said here, a woman has got to follow her instincts.
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 9:46 am ¶
Abu Sinan wrote:
It looks like you made the right move. A woman in a similar circumstance was shot and killed in Florida.
Her crime? She refused to giver he phone number to a group of men:
http://www.wftv.com/news/16488248/detail.html
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 10:51 am ¶
Dr. Dee wrote:
Macintyre, of course I wasn’t there. I never said I didn’t believe what happened or that I thought the young man was not behaving in a threatening and frightening way. As I said, many of us have been in precisely this situation. The writer did the right thing by walking away and going to the police station. In fact, I would have done the same without hesitation. Ironically, in another discussion, I was criticized by another poster who said that going into public places is no guarantee of safety. Some harassers, as many women have found, simply follow their victims wherever they go–even into police stations. And it’s not uncommon for a harasser to lie to authorities and contradict what his accuser is saying.
My point is that I’m just not certain how the distinction is made between a “normal” stalker/attacker/harasser and a psychotic or mentally ill stalker/attacker/harasser.
For example, a group of men tried to run a group of women off a road when one of the women rejected one of the men who asked for her phone number. During the chase, one of the men shot at the women and one of the women was struck by a bullet. I participated in that discussion on catcalling and its sometimes dangerous and deadly consequences, and I didn’t read one comment in which anyone said these young men or even the shooter was mentally ill. What makes those men trying to kill a carload of women “normal” harassers and the man on the subway platform a “mentally ill” harasser? The bottom line is ALL of these men make it unsafe for women just to live in this world! Would you please explain the difference?
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 11:59 am ¶
Joseph wrote:
@gatamala
Hm. I don’t know if that is exactly the same thing as what m.dot described. Let me give you my perspective.
As a city-dwelling man l can tell you that if I were walking by and a man a block away was yelling about your ass I probably wouldn’t say anything either. I assume that grown women can handle themselves and do not need me to take care of them…Until I hear that magic word: “help!” Then I am all about it.
I have lived in the city for too long and seen too many screaming fights between men and women, boys and girls, etc. etc. to jump on a white horse every time someone behaves badly. I have learned the hard way that not everyone deals with their relationship like I do. Some people love to bring their drama into the street. For all I know the ass-yeller is your man and you are having a domestic thing that is none of my business. So unless 1) I am sure someone is doing violence to a woman or 2) she asks me to, I do not get into people’s business on the street.
Does that seem reasonable?
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 12:12 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:
Re: people with mental illness or drug use and threatening behavior.
Policing techniques should be somewhat different with these people than with the ordinary sober crook or rapist. The reactions of the threatening mentally ill or high person are likely to be less predictable than those of the common perp. Expect the unexpected. Don’t dump them back on the street without a forensic psych. evaluation or involuntary short-term commitment for evaluation, and try to contact relatives and see if the person is under treatment and speak to the doctor. Getting the guy back on meds may prevent later violence, while just sending a paranoid schizophrenic back on the streets untreated is asking for trouble.
Who are the police going to regard as more reliable? A college-educated woman, or some dropout or slacker who walks into a police department and claims that the woman roughed him up? That guy’s attitude isn’t just patriarchal, it’s megalomaniac, considering the generally poor treatment young black men get from the police. The guy’s high, violently mentally ill, or stupid.
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 2:29 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:
Joseph, no…..I never said it was the same thing. After what happened to Mildred, I understand why you wouldn’t want to get involved. But please, don’t conflate drama with harassment.
Like I said, he was shouting at me from A BLOCK AWAY. I don’t know where he came from; we didn’t turn around. I didn’t turn around b/c I didn’t want him to think that he could approach me. I listened to see if he was going to run up on me.
This touches a raw nerve with me, as I know that my race and gender means I get thrown to the wolves while the “good” guys who “aren’t like them” don’t do shit and expect to be considered “good”.
Knowing that Mildred Beaubrun is dead hurts.
Knowing that the “good” guys stand aside and let this shit happen to us hurts.
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 3:46 pm ¶
T-Bone wrote:
I’ve read this thread all the way through.
I’m a white male, 50 years old.
From what I have read the young man on the platform did not demonstrate mental illness. He actually showed cunning and ingenuity. Follow your victim into the Police Station to assure the Police that you are not a threat.
It’s a game these young punks play nowadays. They’re not mentally ill, they are behaving in a way that is not acceptable behavior in a civilized society. And they get away with it.
It is the victim that becomes the one to have to adjust her behavior. Don’t walk alone anymore. Don’t wear skirts above your knees. Don’t engage anyone in conversation.
I would have to agree with Dr. Dee’s assessment. People who act in a non traditional criminal way are not necessarily mentally ill. They have refined criminal conduct to confuse and manipulate authority.
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 7:59 pm ¶
Shauna wrote:
What do you guys think about this, similar situation?
My boyfriend was walking with 2 male friends to the bank late at night (I wasn’t there), when one of his friends got into a silly argument with another male and his brother. The argument started because one of my bf’s friends was accused of talking about one of the brothers, when he was not, and it escalated since they were all drunk. The 2 males appeared mixed black/white (my boyfriend is mixed mexican/native american/white/black and his 2 friends are white).
Well at first the friend and one of the brothers were going to fight one and one. But then the brothers, who had skateboards, wouldn’t put them down–and my bf had seen fights where skateboards were used as weapons. Then the brothers called over friends who arrived soon and they all started following my bf and his friends, as they tried to walk home. So they called the cops. They didn’t want to press charges, but one of the brothers was arrested since by everyone’s account he punched the friend once.
Anyways my bf felt really bad about getting the cops involved (he’s been to jail a few times), but he felt threatened with the skateboards, the extra people, and the following. His call was not to get anyone arrested but to protect himself from being jumped. I think that he was totally justified, but he still feels uncomfortable about it. What do you guys think?
Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 9:38 pm ¶
C. Van Dyke wrote:
I’ll join the chorus of people wishing M.dot well and saying that, under the circumstances, she did the right thing.
However, I think we also need to validate her reluctance — it isn’t as simple as ‘he was threatening you, you did the right thing.’ M.dot’s position paper argues the need for the availability of non-police intervention. As many people have said, the young man seemed mentally unstable. What if there had been another option other than the police for her to turn for protection, some government organizaiton that would have protected her from a dangerous man AND tried to get the young man the help he needs? Its unfortunate that the ONLY place to get help is the police, who will most likely process him through the system as a violent “young black male.”
While one should always choose one’s safty, its tragic that one often has to weigh one’s own safty against the damage that will be caused the system. Would M.dot have done the same thing if the guy was white? Probably with LESS reservation, knowning full well that a young white man is much less likely to face disproportionate criminal prosecution than his black counterpart.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 5:40 am ¶
Jeff Lew wrote:
I agree with T-Bone. This guy doesn’t sound insane, but rather was just looking for trouble. I don’t live in NY, but I see this kind of stuff happen all the time on the west coast. Young punks looking for trouble and harassing strangers without provocation. I don’t believe for one second that they are mentally insane, unless you want to call immaturity and uncivilized behavior “insane”.
As for feeling guilty for calling the cops, why should you? You were being threatened and you pay taxes. You have every right to get the cops involved. Maybe the young punk was thinking that you wouldn’t get the cops involved and targeted you for that specific reason.
I don’t know about the black community, but this kind of stuff happens all the time in the Asian community, where Asian gangs specifically target other Asians thinking that they won’t get the cops involved.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 1:07 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:
What if there had been another option other than the police for her to turn for protection, some government organizaiton that would have protected her from a dangerous man AND tried to get the young man the help he needs? Its unfortunate that the ONLY place to get help is the police, who will most likely process him through the system as a violent “young black male.”
Actually, the cops are that govt org who allegedly is supposed to deal w/ these situations. Considering they are getting paid and not doing their job, I don’t think paying for another one will work.
This kid is a YBM who IS violent . Why, we don’t know. At the time of this assault, it doesn’t matter. Protect the innocent first, than “resolve” his situation later.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 1:20 pm ¶
T-Bone wrote:
Jeff Lew brings a very valid and disturbing point. That immaturity and uncivilized, juvenile behavior is becoming the norm.
I had heard it referred to as “delayed adolescence”.
A 18 to 35 year old may act or behave like a spoiled “acting out” 10 or 12 year old.
When a 23 year old man believes getting the highest score on a video game is more important than shoveling his elderly mothers driveway during the winter, there is something wrong with that.
Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 11:47 pm ¶
m.dot wrote:
People who act in a non traditional criminal way are not necessarily mentally ill. They have refined criminal conduct to confuse and manipulate authority.
======
Wow.
This is incredible. I never thought about this and will keep it in mind as I move about the world. Thank you.
~m.dot
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 9:45 am ¶
T-Bone wrote:
Hi m.dot,
Actually Dr. Dee’s comment,
“And it seems that stalking, threatening, and accosting is quite “normal” behavior among a certain group of men.”
got me to thinking, Yes!, These are the types of men, who prey on decent, law abiding women like yourself. The unbelievable part is that these men feel they are somehow entitled to approach and converse with you, even though you show no interest.
They violate “your space” (getting closer than 2 feet from you), make you uncomfortable and if you protest, you are made to feel it is your fault.
After reading this thread I feel uneasy.
My fiancee lives in another state. She jogs alone in a park near her house after work. I worry for her safety.
Ladies of this thread, please, if you are ever confronted and find yourself in a threatening situation, do not hesitate to call out for help, even if it’s public and it may create a scene. Better to be safe.
T-Bone
Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 6:54 pm ¶
Whitney wrote:
Almost the exact same thing happened to me and my friends. We were just sitting in a taco place after a night out, and this kid just walks up to my friend (he was the only guy in a group of girls) and tries to start a fight out of NOWHERE. And the thing was, it had nothing to do with race, the guy and my friend are both white, he was just some crazy looking for a fight. So my friend Missy, ballsy as she is, started pushing him back and got him out of the taco place. However, that was not the end of it. He then decides to pull what we thought was a gun (it was a replica firearm, a pelletgun) like he was some effing badass (you know the kind, stupid white kids who think they’re so hard and tough and are “gangsters” who grow up in white surburbia). I pulled out my phone and immediately called the cops, and as they were running away, the cops pull up. Long story short, they caught the guy, (and his friend) and he ended up going to prison. Turns out he was also on parole violation. I was scared shitless but I knew that I had to make sure this guy was off the streets. He seemed so mentally unstable to me, trying to start a fight completely unprovoked. We were eating effing tacos for Pete’s sake!
I guess my point is that you absolutely did the right thing, and I applaud you for your bravery. It takes courage to stand up for yourself.
Posted 13 Jun 2008 at 2:02 am ¶