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1. In Block & White « Tanglad on 30 May 2008 at 6:19 pm

   [...] Block & White This discussion on Racialicious reminds me of those horrible skin lightening product commercials I saw on television the last time [...]

Comments

1. merq wrote:

   I’m surely stating the obvious here, but what saddens me is how these women’s complexions before lightening would be considered the ideal in some other societies in which skin-lightening is/has been an issue.

   Posted 30 May 2008 at 6:42 am ¶

2. Abu Sinan wrote:

   Light skin colour is an issue all over the place. I know a very pretty, dark skinned Saudi girl, who thought for years that she was an adopted Indian baby because of it.

   It also feeds into the inferiority complex in some of these places, white skin equals more intelligent, harder worker, ect.

   Posted 30 May 2008 at 6:56 am ¶

3. Natasha Vincent wrote:

   (Sits in to watch the conversation since “skin bleaching” has always been a foreign concept to her…)

   Actually, I can’t sit and not say anything. Over time, I’ve come to realize that this crosses cultures but my first run-in with lightening cremes was in my own family back in the 80s. No one uses them now though, although I’m unsure what or when the transition point was.

   Since then, my West African partner has told me of special rocks that pregnant women eat in an effort to whiten baby’s skin before they even see the, err, light. Following the pregnancy of a family friend, the effect was too drastic (when compared to siblings) for it to be a mere wives tale.

   It would be wonderful for an actual user of these products to post here. Not sure what insight I’m looking for but it’s a curious fascination. Just…why?

   Posted 30 May 2008 at 7:24 am ¶

4. Dana wrote:

   Wow. That’s all I can say.

   Posted 30 May 2008 at 7:37 am ¶

5. Adnan wrote:

   Go into any shop in Pakistan, or that caters to Pakistanis abroad, and you’ll find a version marketed towards men. Fair & Handsome, Fair Menz (sic), I kid you not.

   I spotted these two whilst in Islambad (where I am for the next year or so)

   Fair Menz and Fair And Handsome

   Posted 30 May 2008 at 7:43 am ¶

6. Anonymiss wrote:

   It deeply saddens me that skin bleaching is still popular. Nigeria had to ban those products because of the health probems that it was causing.

   In the US, skin bleaching is still very popular amongst African women. I was with my sister over the weekend an one of her neighbors (most likely Nigerian) is a bleacher. Her skin looked very unhealthy. She really needs to let go of the Venus De Milo.

   The odd thing is when you tell bleachers that they wanna be White women, they’re in denial. They think that they’re just improving themselves and they find light skin to be superior.

   Posted 30 May 2008 at 8:10 am ¶

7. DivergentDana wrote:

   LOL @ the last one… “It’s made with ancient, natural ingredients like rose petals, vanilla, and …. hydroquinone!”

   “I’d done 4 interviews when I realized that the obstacle to my dream job was my skin… so I called my lawyer and went medieval on their asses!” And hasn’t Sharukh Khan told that dude in the last scene that he can’t be dark no more either?

   Fun Fact: Unilever, manufacturer of Fair & Lovely is also the manufacturer of Dove products — yup, the folks that do the Real Beauty, “I’m OK, You’re OK” ad campaign.

   Posted 30 May 2008 at 8:13 am ¶

8. Slush wrote:

   When I was in east Java, everyone on television was several shades lighter than most Indonesians. Commercials, unsurprisingly, were the worst – very light skinned women, in most often snow white flowing clothes, against a white background, selling white refrigerators or toasters or whitening cream, whatever. Some of that comes from modern style of commercials with no set, and certainly I don’t usually think about racism or cultural imperialism just because someone’s refrigerator is white, but put together it was really horrifying. Even more saddening, women pointed to their arms and called them “jelek” and contrasted to mine, which were “halus.” Jelek translates to bad, dirty, and lower caste, while halus equals beautiful, clear, and high caste.

   Posted 30 May 2008 at 8:25 am ¶

9. Ms. Four wrote:

   If availability on the shelf is any indication, these products sell well in Egypt too. They’re in just about every pharmacy here, in large quantities.

   Posted 30 May 2008 at 8:27 am ¶

10. BORED KIDZ!!!!! wrote:

    I’ve always thought that South Asians with light skin aren’t that attractive. Just saying.

    (and yes, I’m South Asian)

    Bollywood is in love with white skin, white women, and always try to lure European and American white models/actresses to act in Bollywood movies, thus pushing out dark-skinned South Asian actresses.

    Ugh. I hate the world.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 8:51 am ¶

11. EH wrote:

    The color complex and those skin creams seriousky make my skin crawl.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 9:17 am ¶

12. miss girl wrote:

    [quote]I’ve always thought that South Asians with light skin aren’t that attractive. Just saying. [/quote]

    Huh? Can we refrain from making statements like this?

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 9:37 am ¶

13. Kali wrote:

    It is stupid to want to lighten one’s skin – no debate from me about that.

    But any opinions on red lips/blue eyelids/ pink finger nails – and on and on – to breast enhancement and liposuction?

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 9:38 am ¶

14. afroelf wrote:

    One thing to remember about lightening creams is that they serve many needs in communities of color. Products like fair and light, and ambi(which is targeted to the Af. Am community), do advertise that lighter skin= beauty, which is pretty disgusting. However, one of the major problems that people of color have with their skin is hyperpigmentation, and these products also advertise that they can cure scarring. Speaking from my own experience, the very dark scars on my skin left from acne and ezcema were often worse than the conditions themselves. Since hyperpigmentation is an issue that mainly affects women of color, mainstream cosmetic and parmecutical companies havent put a lot of effort and research into developing effective products to battle it. As a light skinned AA woman, I was driven to Ambi not because i wanted to be lighter, but becuase it promised to remove scarring (didnt work, btw). While i am in no way denying that these products do prey on the self hatred and color complexes in our communities, they may also draw a large consumer base from the fact that they allege to address skin concerns that arent adressed by mainstream cosmetic and parmecutical companies that are focused on serving white customers

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 9:41 am ¶

15. Tiffany wrote:

    Those commericals are sickening

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 9:46 am ¶

16. Jennifer-Ruth wrote:

    Wow – another reason to hate Unilever, then.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 9:59 am ¶

17. Kali wrote:

    BTW skin whitening cream usually contains a sunscreen, an exfoliating agent and some form of retinoin ( a chemical related to vitamin A, toxic in overuse). Retinoin is widely used in the treatment of acne and also some rarer skin conditions.

    Unsightly hyperpigmentation as well as severe scarring is more common in pigmented skin exposed to sunlight eg the face. These creams (used in young people of both genders and all colors in the treatment of acne in the US ) can also reduce the unsightly longterm hyperpigmentation around healing acne but does nothing for the pitting scars.

    This company marketing in India is obviously trying to get more women (not just those with acne) to buy their product and are not above capitalizing on prejudice and using sleaze to do this.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 10:16 am ¶

18. wendi muse wrote:

    ugh that just made me so sick
    i’ve seen plenty of these types of commercials and i have the same reaction every time: disgust

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 10:38 am ¶

19. Kai wrote:

    Five centuries of global white male supremacist capitalist imperialism will lead to things like this.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 10:40 am ¶

20. Vidya wrote:

    As much as I’m disgusted by these ads, I keep reminding myself that they have virtually exact parallels (and socially accepted ones, at that) in North-American weight-loss advertising. People are very willing to risk the health damage of weight-loss techniques and products (and the often-serious health consequences of weight loss itself) just because thinness is represented as ‘beautiful and healthy’, and fatness as ‘ugly and pathological’.
    Also, the very real socioeconomic consequences of having dark skin (esp. in India) and a higher body weight (esp. in the US) should not be overlooked. While both skin bleaching and dieting/weight-loss are known to be a cause of serious illness, it is not only vanity that drives interest in them, but–as the ads suggest–the knowledge that being dark or fat may really impede job opportunities, career advancement, etc.
    What a sick world we live in.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 10:59 am ¶

21. Kandee wrote:

    You too can combat racism, classism, and sexism with the miracle of Fair & Lovely Fairness Cream! Make yourself white, rich, and male in just ten applications. $19.95.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 11:56 am ¶

22. jen wrote:

    from what i understand, asian countries have always valued pale skin, because pale=indoors, life of luxury and dark=working outside, labor. european/western countries used to value pale skin too, until suddenly rich=vacationing in the sun/tan and pale=working in the office/no vacations. maybe at some point the asian countries will also shift their thinking (as more and more people start getting office jobs) and then suddenly they will be all about the self tanners too.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:01 pm ¶

23. Cheryl Lynn wrote:

    http://womeninquire.com/

    It’s not just India. This is global.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:05 pm ¶

24. Katie wrote:

    the light-skin obsession is in full effect in korea too! i haven’t seen any lightening creams but the models on tv are all incredibly light….

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:07 pm ¶

25. Celeste wrote:

    @Vidya: I hadn’t thought about it before but there is an unsavory similarity between diet pills and bleaching creams. Both of the products try to tap into deep seated self loathing about a certain characteristic and offer solutions that are far from risk free. It’s like the end result of thiness or fair skin is worth any possibility of untoward side-effects.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:14 pm ¶

26. holls wrote:

    Okay.

    I have tried some of the ayurvedic turmeric cream that promises to lighten skin.

    I am half s. asian (half Ashkenazic), and pretty fair. My mom (the white one), is always on me to wear hats more because I have freckles. So I was in Jackson Heights poking around and I found the cream, and I have been known to play with and try out random products, so I bought it.

    My mom went NUTS when she found out (I was in my early 20s), and started screaming deranged ’self-hatred’ things at me (I’ve always thought she was a little inclined to look for things like that that may not be there. She’s an old school liberal so she overdoes these things).

    I do understand that these things are heavily laden culturally and psychically, but I REALLY wasn’t going that way. My skin is a great color and just not where I’m insecure at all. I just wanted her to stop bugging me about my freckles.

    Eventually I went to a dermatologist BTW, and she was just as whipped up, but by then I was in my 30s and realized she was just projecting her fears about a racist word on me and I ignored her.
    I mean, getting rid of freckles doesn’t always need to be racialized, for god’s sake.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:16 pm ¶

27. Abu Sinan wrote:

    Jen,

    Good point, I guess maybe that is where the term “red neck” came from. That being a term of abuse for white men who were forced to work outside, turning their skin/necks red.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:17 pm ¶

28. lunanoire wrote:

    holls,

    that may be so, but it was unfortunate to see a conventional beauty- Lindsay Lohan- submit to Malibu Barbie-fication (tan, blonde, no freckles, thin) like many other celebrities of varying ethnic backgrounds.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:30 pm ¶

29. sikandra wrote:

    I have to say, in response to ‘BORED KIDZZ!’ and in agreement with ‘miss girl’ South Asians of EVERY color are beautiful (South Asia is a subcontinent with various peoples with various tongues and various colours, all are to be respected).

    Second, as a South Asian, this isn’t even the tip of the iceberg. This goes back centuries, many classical love poems and songs are embedded with references to the beautiful ‘gori’ (ie – light skinned) woman. This problem is HUGE. That being said, there are also many South Asians who abhor this kind of thought and fight really hard to dispel stereotypes like this.

    All the more reasons for blogs like this.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:35 pm ¶

30. TierList E wrote:

    holls-

    I’m curious as to why your crazy liberal mother didn’t want you to have freckles. That sounds a bit odd.

    What’s wrong with freckles? My mom has them and I wish I’d gotten freckles.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:50 pm ¶

31. holls wrote:

    That’s true sikandra,

    Women with ’skin like the petals of the yellow lotus’ is not a contemporary construct.

    South asia has all kinds of skin-color-chaos that can’t actually be blamed on the british (or the dutch, or the portuguese…).

    I think the whole ‘aryan-untouchables continuum’ should be a future post on its own.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:50 pm ¶

32. F wrote:

    My great aunt used to use these creams and they nearly burned her face off. It’s just not worth it.

    But, there are ridiculous standards of beauty in every culture. For example – why do Western women need to be completely, unnaturally hairless??

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:55 pm ¶

33. holls wrote:

    TierList E,

    Is anyone’s mom not deranged about something?

    I have no idea. She’s always goung on about how my brother has nicer skin because he’s darker and has no freckles.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 12:56 pm ¶

34. TierList E wrote:

    holls,

    Heh, yeah I get you.

    Hm, she’s not equating freckles with “oh my godz no melanin!” is she? More people than I realized had no clue that darker (mad dark too) people can also have them. I’m black by the bye- both my lighter mom and much darker uncle have freckles. I *technically* have them but not to the point where it matters.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 1:12 pm ¶

35. Kali wrote:

    Interesting. No response to my comment about make-up.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 2:38 pm ¶

36. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Kali –

    This is one of those ongoing fights in the feminist community, isn’t it?

    But any opinions on red lips/blue eyelids/ pink finger nails – and on and on – to breast enhancement and liposuction?

    Here’s my opinion.

    Many of those things you discussed are temporary. Lip color, eye color, hair color and things are easily changed, and generally used as more of a form of expression than anything else. (Or so says the girl with S Cawaii nails and red hair.)

    Breast enhancements and other body modifications are a bit tricker. They are seen as more permanent and both embraced and stigmatized at the same time. I personally see it as another form of body modding, like tattoos and piercings. And while there are a lot of things I wouldn’t choose for myself, I don’t really care what others do to their body.

    The only hesitation I have is the extreme cosmetic changes. I don’t really have problems individually with rhinoplasties, blue colored contacts, or blond extensions – they aren’t for me, but they keep selling so I suppose someone else likes them. The problem for me comes in when it looks like all three were employed to create a new self. It makes me sad to look at Little Kim these days. But, like I said in the Pobrescita post, it’s got to be some combination of things to give me pause.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 3:06 pm ¶

37. Jon wrote:

    The light-skin = beautiful thing is really strong in China too. I studied abroad in China a couple of years back and during the summer most women in the city (near Shanghai) went outside on sunny days holding umbrellas to make sure their skin didn’t tan or otherwise darken. Desire for light skin is a huge thing and most models have very light, pale skin (or are photoshopped that way).

    It’s kind of funny because white women in the States (including my sister and gf) complain constantly about being too pale and go to tanning salons to fry themselves with carcinogens to be darker and tanner. Many cultures have this standard of beauty and it’s been around much longer than western imperialism (someone mentioned the whole “pale means indoor life which means luxury and dark means doing manual labor outside” deal and I think that’s true.

    Then again, South Asian and East Asian take these sorts of products to be whiter, not “lighter.” White women tan to be “tanner” or “darker” and not black or brown. So maybe the cultural imperialism idea is influencing all this after all.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 3:10 pm ¶

38. Jon wrote:

    Oh and on China, anyone heard of Darkie toothpaste? It’s a bit off topic but I think it kinda relates. Apparently there’s an idea that black people have whiter teeth (or at least the teeth look whiter) because white teeth contrast more with darker skin. So Darkie toothpaste has a caricature of a black man on the bottle with a top hat in a big smile with blindingly white teeth to emphasize the point.

    At some point someone told them naming your product a racial slur in English is probably a bad idea so they changed it to “Darlie” toothpaste. I think they just decided to pick the next letter of the English alphabet (k-l).

    Anyway, one black woman who was on our program in China found this stuff in the convenience store next to our dorm and talked about harmful stereotypes in Chinese to the class. Just goes to show that people can prioritize whiter everything sometimes.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 3:17 pm ¶

39. DivergentDana wrote:

    “However, one of the major problems that people of color have with their skin is hyperpigmentation, and these products also advertise that they can cure scarring.”

    I was going to bring this up, and I’m glad you did. For years, I covered my legs because of scarring due to a childhood case of chicken pox and various scrapes acquired during that very active time. Now I’ve got eczema, resulting in rashes that wind themselves up and down my body leaving dark swarms of scars in their wake, along with nickel allergies. I’m definitely not ashamed of my actual skin tone — that’s why it annoys me to no end to have it marred like this, and to possibly be lumped in with folks who want to be fairer when I look for remedies… I actually plan on tanning this summer to see if darkening my skin will result in a more uniform complexion.

    “that may be so, but it was unfortunate to see a conventional beauty- Lindsay Lohan- submit to Malibu Barbie-fication (tan, blonde, no freckles, thin) like many other celebrities of varying ethnic backgrounds.”

    This is true… I used to have a girlie crush on Mean Girls-era LiLo.

    “But any opinions on red lips/blue eyelids/ pink finger nails – and on and on – to breast enhancement and liposuction?”

    Do you feel that these things are somehow connected with race, Kali? Because skin lightening is, and this site is kinda race related.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 3:20 pm ¶

40. Kali wrote:

    Latoya
    You amaze me again.
    I like a girl/woman (girl compared to me anyway) who has the courage to bite the bullet.

    Skin whiteners are not actually bleaches nor (are they permanent. Skin cells are replenished all the time and eventually one reverts to ones usual color.

    The reason I really would discourage anyone from using them is the possibility of serious side-effects if used over the long term.

    Antibiotics are also widely prescribed long-term for acne: which in actuality is not a disease any more than menstruation is- only more visible and to the fastidious adolescent ego really ‘gross’ (I speak from experience): again a cosmetic exercise. No one missed work or died of acne.

    The preference for pale skin in females (not males) in India far predates but was probably exacerbated by colonialism. Jen writes a very accurate comment about how Brahmins/rich women were spared the labor under a relentless sun and could stay indoors. The Europeans had exactly the same idea : ‘My Fair Lady’ for the doubting among you.

    So what gives all these commenters the right to be ‘disgusted’ by Indian women using “fair and Lovely’, while hair-straightening by AA women or the use of make-up by everyone goes without comment or at the very least is treated more respectfully.

    Why is it not OK for BORED KIDZ to say she personally prefers darker skin – but it is OK for wendi t report that a non-AA boyfirend does not approve of her ‘fairer’ skin in the winter.

    One of the most beautiful things to hear – from a parent, from one’s child, from a friend or lover is “I love you just the way you are”- for that reason I was touched by wendi’s boyfriend liking her dark skin and curly hair.

    However I should not tell my non-white partner that I didn’t like his skin pale in the winter (’so get a tan’) or brown with zillions of freckles (true!) in the summer(’ so stay out of the sun’). That would be objectification, no?

    BTW in my case my husband might (perversely) love to be considered a sex object.

    I have no real opinions about make-up, shaving etc . However I gave up wearing eye make-up because on one occasion when going out for a party I was kissing my toddler son goodbye when he remarked anxiously “What have you done to your eyes Mom? You look like you’re dead or something!”. I would advise against Mascara for Asian women for this reason!

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 3:33 pm ¶

41. Kali wrote:

    That should have been non-colored/white partner!!

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 3:39 pm ¶

42. Michelle wrote:

    So what’s the solution?

    Take, for instance, hair relaxers. I would love to hear how hair relaxers are different from skin bleaching creams. I know you racialicious readers will break it down for me. For those of you who don’t know what relaxers are, they are chemical formulations that break down the molecular bonds of hair. So if the hair is tightly curled “kinky” hair, a hair relaxer will make it appear straight and “smooth”.

    Now, I know that if you told Black women across the planet (or at least the continental US) that putting a relaxer in their hair was indicative of their self hatred, you might have a riot on your hands. Hair relaxers are to some Black women what guns were to the late Charleton Heston. Hair relaxers erase their god given hair and turn into something manageable, beautiful and acceptable.

    Lastly, skin bleaching cream advertisements were like a staple of Ebony/Jet magazines back in the day. Along with pressing combs and creams. Just saying. This is not new, nor is it entirely untrue to say that lighter skinned people have an easier time in the world. Or people with straight hair. Let’s be fair to the people out there who are just trying to hold onto whatever they can to feel beautiful. It is not easy in the face of extreme disagreement.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 3:45 pm ¶

43. Joanna wrote:

    In Beijing, I saw skin-lightening products heavily advertised on TV and in stores.

    A lot of Chinese women tend to wear hats or carry umbrellas on sunny days. I wonder if it’s more for health reasons or beauty reasons.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 3:47 pm ¶

44. Kali wrote:

    Indian women do not use these products to be “Whiter” but “Lighter/fair” . They are not children/stupid enough to think it changes their race. These women in fact, would balk at marrying a ‘white’ man and only want to be ‘more attractive’ to their own men. I bet most quickly drop the use of the expensive F&L as soon as they are married/have got the job.

    Neither Michael Jackson nor any human at this time can change their pigmentation so drastically except by having a skin disorder – Vitiligo is the commonest and this is what MJ has.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 3:54 pm ¶

45. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Kali –

    How did I know you were going somewhere with that?

    Skin whiteners are not actually bleaches nor (are they permanent. Skin cells are replenished all the time and eventually one reverts to ones usual color.

    I did not know that, but it makes sense.

    So what gives all these commenters the right to be ‘disgusted’ by Indian women using “fair and Lovely’, while hair-straightening by AA women or the use of make-up by everyone goes without comment or at the very least is treated more respectfully.

    Good countercall. Other people have made that argument on this site before, btw, just not recently.

    Hair straightening is a strange thing. See this post and subsequent comments. It is accepted in some circles, rejected in others. Unfortunately, most of us have our feet in both places.

    You actually hit on something that I’ve been meaning to cover, which is beauty politics. It is difficult to resist societal pressure to conform in some way or many ways and a lot of us do these tradeoffs try to to get where we want to be.

    For example, me. I started growing out my relaxer about three months ago. A lot of things led up to that, but most notably –

    1. One of my close friends grew her hair out over the course of a year and it looks amazing.

    2. The last relaxer I got rendered the sides of my head near the temples completely bald. I’m glad my hair grows longer in the front. This mishap is not uncommon – ever since I’ve been getting relaxers, every few years my hair has had a major meltdown and broken off or fallen out completely. My mom took a much lighter approach to my younger sisters hair – it goes midway down her back, and it has never broken off.

    3. An overall new focus on full body wellness. (And the influence of Afrobella.)

    However, there is pressure. My mom is fucking horrified that I am growing my hair out. I didn’t even tell her for the first two months, until I noticed the pattern my hair grew in and called her to ask why I had a relaxer in the first place. Apparently, my hair doesn’t really curl, it just aggressively waves. So my Afro dreams are shattered. Still, I stick with it.

    When I told my friends, everyone was happy, but wary. They asked about my job. They asked about my boyfriend. Changing your hair texture up seems to have consequences and repercussions attached to it, in addition to any other body baggage you carry. But I’ll go into more detail on that front in a post.

    Make-up, I cut both ways on. I see what you’re saying but I tend to use make up as more artistic expression and less of a cover up, so I suppose it depends on the why doesn’t it? But the same kind of pressure applies.

    (Mom’s horror comes from the fact that she used to be a cosmetologist. She is similarly horrified by my refusal to wear hair weaves or foundation.)

    Why is it not OK for BORED KIDZ to say she personally prefers darker skin – but it is OK for wendi t report that a non-AA boyfirend does not approve of her ‘fairer’ skin in the winter.

    Her comment stood because she owned it as a personal preference. And I had confidence that someone would say something about it. Also, keep in mind that sometimes, things get slanted when you are trying to combat a stigma. I’ve gone most of my life thinking that the “white ideal” is unattractive, the same way many people think that entire groups of people can be unattractive. It’s a weird connection of racism and social conditioning, which is why I am very skeptical of people who claim “it’s just a personal preference.” Yeah, but what informed that preference? But again, more on that in another post.

    BTW, Most of the Asian women I know rock mascara well. Ever think of switching the color to purple or navy?

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 3:55 pm ¶

46. Kali wrote:

    Latoya
    I think saris are gorgeous but gave up wearing them because they were just too much trouble. Ditto with make-up – although I do use it impulsively sometimes.

    My AA friends tell me that their hair gets very tangled and unmanageable unless they keep it relaxed, cut very short or braided. I spent a childhood pining after curls and now spend a middle-age coloring the grey!! So I am not judging – just trying to provoke into thinking harder.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 4:10 pm ¶

47. Resee wrote:

    I can’t BELIEVE that ad! That is absolutely DISGUSTING!!! This world is insane! Only God can pull us out of this madness…

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 4:57 pm ¶

48. jen wrote:

    i wonder if skin lightening products would be considered less “disturbing” or “disgusting” if the person using it was trying to look more like a relative rather than “the white folks?”

    since we all know that skin tones come in all shades within each race, what if a pale skinned mother had a dark skinned daughter. and the daughter just wanted to be the same color as her mother because she thinks that her mother is the most beautiful person in the world? would it be more okay for her to use a skin lightening cream than another person of the same race who doesn’t have a paler relative?

    (i thought of this because of all the discussions i’ve read in the past on other sites about the whole asian eyelid surgery debate. also, i had a friend who got breast implants because she always thought that her mother, whom she lost at a young age, was the most beautiful person ever and she wanted to have the same figure.)

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 5:00 pm ¶

49. TierList E wrote:

    I . . .don’t know if their is a difference between relaxer and skin whitener (used for lightening your overall skin tone).

    I think in both kinds debates some people are coming from a different place than I am. I don’t think most minority people ever actively do anything to look white. I think they *actively* want to look pretty and/or socially acceptable. The fact is that in many cases it is synonymous with looking white in any case (or in looking upper class if there were color issues beforehand), and those powers as an institution are actively influencing this to be the so.

    That’s what so horrible about it, the societal pressures to dislike yourself for being born a certain way and/or give your real social liabilities for (not) having certain traits. I have nothing against the women who are trying to cope the best they can, even if it is through relaxers or skin whiteners.

    I do have a problem, though, if those women ridiculed those that choose not to do those things. No need to add more pain/pressure.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 5:03 pm ¶

50. TierList E wrote:

    @jen

    Actually, that disturbs me just as much as looking up to another race, and if I were a mother I would nip that in the bud quick, before she grows to dislike herself.

    In some cases continuously comparing yourself to a pretty person in real life can be much more psychologically damanging than chasing after some nebulous beauty ideal.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 5:36 pm ¶

51. A. wrote:

    Michelle –

    A big problem that I see in my own communities, and even among my own family, is the belief, actually, among people WITH natural hair, is that Natural is more afro-centric and much more closer to our roots (no pun intended) than getting our hair relaxed, and that relaxing our hair is the equivalent of self-hatred.

    People have different reasons for getting their hair relaxed, and what I have found is that it has little to do with standards of beauty. Especially in my case. My hair is actually NOT manageable at all unless it is permed. I’ve worn it without a relaxer before, and have gotten my hair pressed. My hair started falling out. I can’t even get a brush through my hair because it is so thick. I have to do something that will keep my hair manageable, especially to my hair thickness. I’m not the type of person who even WANTS to look white. But I do want to keep MY HAIR in MY HEAD, and having my hair fall out is ultimately something that I will not allow to happen again.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 5:36 pm ¶

52. South African Beauty wrote:

    I am SO glad that you posted on this, thank you. I find the whole ordeal rather disgusting, and the self hatrad as mentioned goes all the way back to the days of colonization. I am tamil (generally darker indians) and this self hatrad because we generally is extreme. I remember like 7 years ago when I was 8 I was talking to these two girls a year younger than me and they were rubbed like rough rocks on their skin and when I asked why they said they were trying to get the gross brown colour of their skin. I asked my mother about it and she explained the fair = beautiful. She had problems with this because her sisters didn`t like her because she was the fair; unfortuntly my cousins do not like me either because of it =( The irony of it all is that I do anything to become darker; starting a whole new circle of self hate I guess. It hurts when people say ” Oh your tamil NOO can`t be your so light. . . or your so pretty your skin is so white ‘. It`s like the only reason for the attractiveness is because you are fair. Beauty is not beauty when it made or broken based on skin colour; beauty is your features and yourself as a whole.

    Bollywood shows this all the time. Actresses all have extremely white skin and usually have lighter colour eyes; darker actresses like Konkana Sen Sharma are not as popular even though she is arguably one of the best actresses. And bipasha who has somewhat darker skin tone is usually half naked eye candy. Candice Pillay, south african indian aspriring singer and vidoe model, made a very interesting statement. She said (something along the lines of) that in the south african indian community she was/is not considered to be beautiful because of her dark skin so she came to America and they loved it. It`s sad that she needed to leave S.A to feel that sense of beauty because she is gorgeous.

    Someone asked what`s the solution and I truly wish it was as simply as that but it`s going to take a hell of alot stuff to stop this self inflicting hatrad that has been going on for hundreds of years, and is present in all aspects of its cutlture.

    On a anothre note at least they do not discriminate agasint the genders there is a male version called Fair & Handsome; which has the same push to it (job promotion more ladies) only they say no longer will you have to borrow hers and stuff . rubbish bs .

    Someone also mentioned tanning creams and stuff. I absoultuely hate how they are called tanning creams instead of blackening/browning creams vs. how lightening creams are called whitening creams instead of something like hyperpigmentation aid or something .

    side note: sorry this is so random I had a lot to say on this topic; it irks and makes my soul cry.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 6:30 pm ¶

53. DivergentDana wrote:

    “i wonder if skin lightening products would be considered less “disturbing” or “disgusting” if the person using it was trying to look more like a relative rather than “the white folks?”

    Actually, it’s often the case that they’re emulating the people thought of as beautiful in their own race… there are many, many people who prefer the “Westernized” version of their own group’s features over those of whites. However, I don’t see the existence of “Westernized” POC at the apex of the hierarchy as a mere coincidence. Take my mother for example… she’s internalized the beliefs about “good” and “bad” hair that were common in her generation and she finds biracial (black/white) people to be especially attractive because they, to her occupy a midpoint where features aren’t “too” broad or “too” sharp… if she fully accepted the idea that more Euro=better, there couldn’t be a such thing as “too sharp”.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 6:35 pm ¶

54. Korolev wrote:

    I’ve always found it perplexing that many people in the predominantly white societies try to get tans to darken their skin (which are bad for you), while people who live in predominantly black or brown societies try to lighten their skin (with creams that can be very hazardous to a person’s health).

    This sort of thing has been going on for hundreds, if not thousands of years. In Chinese culture, the whitest skin tones have always been sought after, and the same is seen in India. This is not a modern phenomenon.

    I can’t pinpoint exactly where this type of thinking originated, nor why. Biologically, darker skin is better for people in warm or sunny climates (less damage from UV rays). I would hazard a guess that lighter skin tones were seen has being “rare”, and thus, might have been prized in cultures such as India. This would also explain why many people in the West get tans to make themselves look more “exotic”. I am also aware of the hypothesis that Asian countries favor lighter skin tones because it implied that the person was rich enough to remain in-doors most of the time.

    Of course, for morale and health, it is far better for people to accept the skin they were born with. Tanning and “lightening” should be considered health risks – why, recently in Australia, a woman gave an interview on TV asking to ban tanning-salons, due to the fact that she contracted fatal skin cancer from using it.

    Human beauty is subjective – everyone has his or her idea of what constitutes “beautiful”. Personally, I would ban tanning salons and lightening creams. For the interests of human health.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 7:09 pm ¶

55. gothic guera wrote:

    I noticed in the stores in the Hispanic neighborshood, they sell whiteing cream and even at my local lucky’s! Growing up Iwould get complents from my mother family for being so pale.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 7:40 pm ¶

56. insomniac wrote:

    im british south asian as a young teenager i brought a skin bleaching face cream i only used it a few times before my mum found it and threw it away. i had two main reasons for buying it

    1. Growing up i was told by family aunts , cousins etc (never my parents even tho my mother is fairer than me) that my skin was too dark and no one would find me attractive. i remember a certain uncle who used to ‘joke’ that the only reason i was darker was beacause i didnt wash my face properly.

    2 .My school was mostly white kids and i though if i was lighter i would fit in more (my real friends had no problem with my skin colour).

    The worst thing is that there were stories on how the creams had burned peoples skin but i still risked using them because i thought doing so i would have been more accepted within my family and school. That was a good 10+ years ago and its a shame that the creams are still made.

    Also last year i went to Hong Kong and found skin whiteing creams sold everywhere some of them were made by top brands eg, Dior, Clinic , Estee lauder, Lancome etc (i didnt buy any i love my skin)

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 7:55 pm ¶

57. South African Beauty wrote:

    I am SO glad that you posted on this, thank you. I find the whole ordeal rather disgusting, and the self hatrad as mentioned goes all the way back to the days of colonization. I am tamil (generally darker indians) and this self hatrad because we generally is extreme. I remember like 7 years ago when I was 8 I was talking to these two girls a year younger than me and they were rubbed like rough rocks on their skin and when I asked why they said they were trying to get the gross brown colour of their skin. I asked my mother about it and she explained the fair = beautiful. She had problems with this because her sisters didn`t like her because she was the fair; unfortuntly my cousins do not like me either because of it =( The irony of it all is that I do anything to become darker; starting a whole new circle of self hate I guess. It hurts when people say ” Oh your tamil NOO can`t be your so light. . . or your so pretty your skin is so white ‘. It`s like the only reason for the attractiveness is because you are fair. Beauty is not beauty when it made or broken based on skin colour; beauty is your features and yourself as a whole.

    Bollywood shows this all the time. Actresses all have extremely white skin and usually have lighter colour eyes; darker actresses like Konkana Sen Sharma are not as popular even though she is arguably one of the best actresses. And bipasha who has somewhat darker skin tone is usually half naked eye candy. Candice Pillay, south african indian aspriring singer and vidoe model, made a very interesting statement. She said (something along the lines of) that in the south african indian community she was/is not considered to be beautiful because of her dark skin so she came to America and they loved it. It`s sad that she needed to leave S.A to feel that sense of beauty because she is gorgeous.

    Someone asked what`s the solution and I truly wish it was as simply as that but it`s going to take a hell of alot stuff to stop this self inflicting hatrad that has been going on for hundreds of years, and is present in all aspects of its cutlture.

    On a anothre note at least they do not discriminate agasint the genders there is a male version called Fair & Handsome; which has the same push to it (job promotion more ladies) only they say no longer will you have to borrow hers and stuff . rubbish bs .

    Someone also mentioned tanning creams and stuff. I absoultuely hate how they are called tanning creams instead of blackening/browning creams vs. how lightening creams are called whitening creams instead of something like hyperpigmentation aid or something .

    side note: sorry this is so random I had a lot to say on this topic; it irks and makes my soul cry.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 8:11 pm ¶

58. HighJive wrote:

    As someone commented earlier, Fair And Lovely is produced by Unilever. This is significant because Unilever also produces Dove. In the U.S., Dove talks about “Real Beauty”—bullshitting about shattering the idealized beauty standards in advertising and fashion publications. Meanwhile, Unilever is also telling women they need to lighten their skin for social acceptability with Fair And Lovely. On top of that, Unilever also produces Axe, which features the most sexist imagery imaginable. You can read a little more about it here and here.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 10:03 pm ¶

59. Britta wrote:

    I just wanted to add that comparing tanning to skin whitening isn’t really the same (not that the people mentioning it on the thread were doing so). To me, it’s like when people talk about how hard it is to be fat in the US, someone invariably says “well it’s hard being thin too.” While tanning rose to popularity in the 1920s as a sign that you were healthy and could afford to do outdoorsy things like yachting and golf etc., I don’t think that light skin has ever fallen out of favor. Being pale is, to some extent, always considered “classically” beautiful, even if it’s not trendy. And now with the rise of tanning salons, I’d argue being tan is becoming declasse. For example, compare Jessica Simpson and Britney Spears to Nicole Kidman or Scarlett Johansson–who’s seen as more beautiful?

    Being pale never has dampened anyone’s job or marriage prospects, nor has it truly been treated as ugly or undesirable. To me, it shows while white supremacist beauty norms may indulge in fads, but the underlying white = good, pure, beautiful and black = bad & ugly never changes, nor do the power structures that these beauty norms help enforce.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 11:58 pm ¶

60. Britta wrote:

    Oops, sorry, paragraph to was supposed to say: to me, the contrast between the skin whitening industry and the tanning industry shows that while white supremacy….

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 12:00 am ¶

61. DivergentDana wrote:

    Somewhat relevant point of confusion for me… in the black community, who’s “dark skinned” and “light skinned” is a matter of some dispute (especially among layperson perceptions of celebs because of lighting, cosmetics, stuff like that) but not like, an epic amount because darkness/lightness is determined by presence along a continuum of, I dunno… Mariah Carey/Lisa Bonet to Alek Wek. However, among Indians, I’ve seen people referred to as dark/dusky that are about medium pallor as far as the both the median and mean of Indian skintone (percieved by me, anyway) is concerned, like Bipasha Basu, Parminder Nagra, and Tanushree Dutta. The women in the above videos seem to be medium colored, not dark before their “transformations”, as opposed to people that seem truly “dark” like Sendhil Ramamurthy, cricketer Tinu Yohannan, and these folks http://www.flickr.com/photos/maciejdakowicz/404584449/ — skintones that are seldom evinced among Bollywood stars, if at all… skintones that don’t even seem to be frequently acknowledged as part of the range. Is this “oversight” intentional or not, and is it an oversight at all… am I just culturally ignorant, or what?

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 2:31 am ¶

62. marge twain wrote:

    I’m late coming to this thread and many others have made many good points. Particularly this from Kali:

    “The preference for pale skin in females (not males) in India far predates but was probably exacerbated by colonialism…
    So what gives all these commenters the right to be ‘disgusted’ by Indian women using “fair and Lovely’, while hair-straightening by AA women or the use of make-up by everyone goes without comment or at the very least is treated more respectfully.”

    To say that skin lightening in India is about wanting to look like a white person might seem obvious to an American, but it’s really about a colorist beauty ideal within the parameters of India’s many ethnic groups. I have had a hard time explaining this to people before: Though women in America face pressure to be beautiful and a deemphasis on our other skills and talents, Indian women face much more. Tanning and hair-relaxing imperitives don’t really compare.
    It’s also not unusual for dark women to be subject to a lot of taunting and comments like some people have described above. I’m reminded of the street-harassment thread below. It was my experience in India that men and women feel free to assess women’s bodies and make judgements on their worth. Low-status(often dark) women even more so.
    Re: tanning in the west: This was started as a trend by Coco Chanel in the 1920s when she got an accidental dark tan vacationing on the French Riviera and decided to own it as a symbol of flapper irreverence and leisure. That’s why it still has that connotation in the west, of vacation and not hard labor.
    The pairing of tan skin with the recent trend for very dark hair has actually created some pretty ambiguous looking white girls. I have sometimes assumed someone was hispanic or arab, only to discover otherwise. Though I don’t want white girls to have a complex, I credit my growing up in America for having absorbed the darker=better idea and being able to love my brown skin.

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 3:43 am ¶

63. TonyF. wrote:

    I’m not a woman but I found those ads to be disturbing. The girl in the second ad was beautiful just as she was before using this evil product. Damn.

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 5:14 am ¶

64. whatever15 wrote:

    DivergentDiva I totally agree with you! I’ve read a lot of discussions of skin whitening in the Indian communities and people always bring up so called dark Bollywood stars that when compared to some Indians are nowhere as dark as they are. So if these stars are so dark what are those other people? I too wonder at the omission of anything that is higher than dusky tan, which the Indian family you posted are certainly darker that that. I wonder about people like Mindy Kaling from the Office and I understand what South African Beauty is referring, to women who move somewhere else so that their beauty would be more accepted. However, South African Beauty theres a trend in the music world which accept “exotic” women such as Candice Pillay so she just landed in an area where she is viewed as the “cream of the crop” .

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 7:40 am ¶

65. Kali wrote:

    The parsing of various degrees of pigmentation is about as relevant as sizes of penis or degree of wrinkling. Both the latter are the subject on many, many ads in the US.

    Corporations exist to make money for their share-holders and are not known for their social conscience (unless externally enforced). WRT I am more concerned with what Union Carbide did to Bhopal than what Unilever is doing to a small group of women priveleged enough to be buying this stuff.

    Similarly Ad Agencies compete for business with corporations and their measure of success is how much product they induce people to buy.

    And lastly the model in the video is busy making a living and probably puts her real views on hold. I would guess that in real life she is much more like the westernized skilfully made-up woman stepping off the jet than the pre-F&L persona.

    And what makes me saddest watching this video as an Indian woman: the denigration of the old and the traditional way of dress and make-up (red bindi on forehead, flowers in hair and sari) andof (Hindu) religious traditions and potrayal of the vapid ‘after’ persona as desirable..

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 10:46 am ¶

66. Kali wrote:

    Forgot to add that Photoshop did more for skin lightening in that ad than ever F&L did – ditto for TV grow-hair-on-your- bald -pate ads or those for expensive skin ‘creme’ cr** .

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 10:51 am ¶

67. JackieKayOh wrote:

    Wow. I had seen a few “Fair and Lovely” ads before—but they seem to be getting worse. Did anyone catch the double-entendre of “total fairness?” As if her lighter skin could get her justice? (Which it did in the commercial) Oh yeah, and a date of course! No woman is complete without male approval. I don’t think I’m reading too much into this either.

    I read the insightful comments above about skin color, perception, and power.

    In addition to these hugelt important issues, I think it also has to do with impossible beauty standards no matter what you look like. What is it that most difficult to do? That’s the standard. I am a woman with VERY PALE skin. I would be a millionaire if I had a dollar for every time someone told me I should get a tan. Complete strangers even felt compelled to inform me of this fact. Of course, I bought into it in my youth and spent hours (risking cancer) lying in tanning beds. Gosh, I’m so embarrassed to even admit that.

    The thing is, no matter what we are, the standards are so narrow—that women just keep suffering. If I have skin cancer some day, at least I can claim to have received approval from men and some strangers for a very short time at the age of 24. How depressing.

    Thank you for this website! These dialogues are so necessary.

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 1:19 pm ¶

68. gorgeous black women wrote:

    I’m oh so glad that several of you mentioned that Unilever, parent company of Dove, also makes this product. Hypocrites.

    Tangent: I find the Dove ads a bit patronizing. Oh, we poor little girls need to be saved from a lifetime of anorexia (which impacts less than 1% of the female population in the target age bracket) and skin envy because we are so impressionable that seeing airbrushed models (even though 9 year olds these days are well aware of Photoshop Awards worthy photos). It’s amazing that so many people are up in arms about eating disorders and body image yet we’re all pretty complacent when we hear that 25% of teen girls have at least one STI.

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 3:20 pm ¶

69. marge twain wrote:

    I want to add some context to this, said by me:

    “I credit my growing up in America for having absorbed the darker=better idea and being able to love my brown skin.”

    I am considered dark by Indian standards, which means, like Divergent Dana pointed out, that I’m in the medium range of Indian skin tones. My makeup shades are called things like “warm caramel” and “toasted pecan” and if a U.S. company offers any makeup for brown people mine tends to be darkest or second darkest.

    A couple of years ago I want to India and, thinking I was underserved by color choices here, decided I would stock up on Indian makeup. I was shocked by what I found. I went to cheap neighborhood stores, upscale counters and salons and the shade range everywhere was from Snow White to Ivory. Sales clerks helpfully pointed me towards the pale stuff. I remember holding my hand against one for comparison and chuckling incrdulously. My aunt explained that face makeup is used for making women lighter, not matching skin tone. She thinks it’s stupid and oppressive. She only wears eyeliner, lipstick and bindi, herself.

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 3:28 pm ¶

70. Myles wrote:

    I have a rather large dark brown section of hyperpigmentation on my arm, people tend to ask me what it is/can I get rid of it. When i was younger I actually wanted my entire body to be darker and considered getting a full body tattoo or just scrubbing my skin away until it scarred in darker.

    Of course the fun thing about being mixed (with mixed parents, grandparents, etc) is that I just have interesting coloration. My chest is extremely light, my white friends even joke about how I’m even paler than they are. My eyes were blue the first three years of my life until they “finally” changed, and darkened to a “normal” brown color.

    Growing up I was always rewarded for being “black” and having “black” traits. My “white” traits got me chastised and my Native American features largely got me fetishized.

    Of course now that I am older I do have hyperpigmentation on my face too, mostly around my mouth and I do use Nuetrogena: Visibly Even products on my face to even out my skins color. Has it helped, yeah.

    Does that fact keep me from feeling a tinge of guilt when i buy it? NO! I still feel like i should want to be darker. And that by doing anything that might make my skin lighter I am somehow “betraying” non-white people as a whole.

    But then I remember that skin cancer sucks, and slap on that SPF 15.

    Like afroelf and DivergentDana and others have mentioned, sometimes these products actually do serve a positive purpose, and help in evening out skin color. And that can keep people from asking those awkward questions.

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 4:33 pm ¶

71. marge twain wrote:

    Someone here pointed out, correctly, that folks with dark skin have more problems with scarring. I just want to point out that tanning to diminish their appearance WILL NOT WORK. Please don’t try it. The effect of the sun is to make scars DARKER. Plus, you can get age spots, wrinkles and premature jowls/sagging eyelids from your skin losing elasticity. Also remember: anyone, any color can get cancer.

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 6:19 pm ¶

72. bdsista wrote:

    Thanks Marge, that is true, to answer Kali, here are my true confessions. I am light skinned black (think vanilla wafer). I have used REtin A for 25 years, I have used hydroquinone creams for acne scars and cuts on my body. Most over the couner preparations do not work. I got a breast reduction (insurance covered it) and still have very dark raised scars-not keloids but hyperpigmented hyperplasia. My (white) plastic surgeon has a special prescription mix of hydroquinone that is very effective. I have worn green contacts cuz I thought it would look cool, and I was bored with my looks. I like the attention I get sometimes. I have straightened my hair for 45 years. My mother sent me when I was five to get it pressed and curled. I have very coarse thick, uncombable hair. When perms were more advanced, I got my hair relaxed. /The only break was in college in the 70s and like LaToya, my fro sagged, so I went back to a perm. My mother was a teacher and back then you didn’t wear pants to work and if you were Black you wore your hair straight or wore a wig. Especially if you aspired to be an administrator. (in the 60s), 70’s fros were in, 80s fro were back out and stayed out until braids came in. I loooove makeup! Don’t do blond, think it looks trashy on black folk, i.e. lil Kim, but can’t stand it on Mary J either! Only person I liked blond was Tookie Smith and that was a fashion statement that wasn’t about looking like a blonde rapper fantasy (gagging slightly). I color my nails, I used to sell makeup to pay my bills in college and well, hey I’m a black bellydancer who is almost 50 and revel in the wigs, makeup, nail color, false lashes, glitter, bindis, and fabo glitzy costumes! oh and yes I consider myself a womanist.
    I really have issues with the Indian ads and there are similar ones in Black magazines related to hair as well. But the scarring issue is very real. I wear SPF 30, Neutrogena and Peter Thomas Roth. This (cute) Iranian guy at a party (27) told me he thought I looked 33. Hell, I was 33 that night! Yes, take care of your skin. But don’t bleach it!

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 8:20 pm ¶

73. vodalus wrote:

    kali, I just want to disagree about acne not being a disease or a problem. I’ve suffered from severe acne my whole life and I don’t use the term “suffer” casually. I have great pocks all over my face and body. Zits for me start as painful swellings deep under my skin. My skin is also delicate, so inattentive scratching of my spots causes my skin to break and scar. Acne isn’t just embarrassing for me. (An anecdote: one of my cousins brought his girlfriend and her son to Thanksgiving. At one point the little boy announced that he knew which person was my father; we had matching scarred faces. He was quickly shushed by his mother.)

    As for skin lightening, it isn’t my place to speak.

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 10:16 pm ¶

74. stella wrote:

    Contentment with self equals the peril of many industries.

    Posted 01 Jun 2008 at 4:15 am ¶

75. Kali wrote:

    @vodalus, bdista
    Thank you for sharing your story with us – we have much to gain from listening to you.

    My apologies. I absolutely was not meaning to mock anyone’s problems or be glib and dismissive.

    There was also another WOC who spoke of unsightly chicken pox scars on legs who weighs on my mind and I offer these comments to her also.

    For all PoC with scarring (keloids are the worst but hyperpigmentation is bad too) pleasetry to see a dermatologist (not a family doc) and even get a second opinion if necessary as not every doc is up-to-date however well-meaning they may be. There are many simple, effective methods covered by insurance .

    I saw an immensely kind older, white dermatologist for awhile for another skin condition without improvement. When he was off on medical leave I had to find another dermatologist – who happened to be WoB and barely out of med school. Of course, I was wary and mistrustful – but she took a different, very new approach and resolved my problem in an amazingly short time!

    Make-up is enjoyable and it seems to me the young who need it least use it the most. I don’t use any now but personally kept the Indian cosmetic industry in business when I was younger (kidding – but I did use a lot).
    It was fun – like face paint or side-walk chalk when I was a kid. LaToya talked of this art-like element of making-up. I even get a buzz when I write phone numbers on my hand with a ballpoint pen! Since all cultures and all ages have used some form of embellishment it must be a very human urge, feminist disapproval notwithstanding.

    Ads are deeply offensive or not depending on one’s socialization. As someone remarked similar ads in Ebony some years did not occasion censure. Remember ads are usually thought up by young, middle-class males before they age and (hopefully) develop a conscience. If you get around to watching Bollywood movies you will find plenty of sexism, racism (kyriarchy) to annoy you for the rest of this century and when you have seen a few dozen of those these ads will have to be even louder and more brazen to even enter your consciousness.

    As for breast reduction – that simply is not in the same league as breast enhancement. It is NOT a cosmetic procedure. It is (rightly) considered a prescribed medical procedure when indicated.

    LaToya and Carmen- thank you again from all of us Racialicious regulars for doing a fabulous job of encouraging thought, debate and hopefully progress in our thinking and decision-making.

    Posted 01 Jun 2008 at 9:04 am ¶

76. DivergentDana wrote:

    “As someone remarked similar ads in Ebony some years did not occasion censure.”

    Actually, there was quite a stir about the equivalent of these ads… things like this — http://www.pamspaulding.com/Pam/pampix/raveen.jpg

    Posted 01 Jun 2008 at 3:35 pm ¶

77. Bronze Trinity wrote:

    OMG! I know that these creams exist for Black women, but I don’t think they would actually have a woman say she is being held back because of her skin. If so, thats discrimmination not a cue to lighten your skin!

    Posted 01 Jun 2008 at 9:16 pm ¶

78. Anna wrote:

    I’m just curious: has anyone ever seen a skin-lightening product marketed to men?

    These ads declare that femininity = whiteness, making it hard to untangle their racism from their sexism. Watching them brought angry tears to my eyes…

    Thanks to the other posters for your insightful comments, esp. those who shared their own experiences.

    Posted 01 Jun 2008 at 10:52 pm ¶

79. DivergentDana wrote:

    Oh, yes, Anna. There’s “Fair and Handsome” and “Fair Menz” noted above…. *sighs wistfully* if only people were this dedicated to being that other, boring kind of “fair.”

    Posted 02 Jun 2008 at 3:56 pm ¶

80. anon. wrote:

    What is the deal with light skin versus dark skin!? I personally think both are beautiful! It’s so sad to see people insecure just because of the shade of your skin or wanting to change it.

    I’m yellow, more towards the dark skin.
    When I was younger I wished so bad that I had lighter skin because everyone I was around just portrayed it to be so magnificent! And only about three years ago did I finally come to peace with myself that it doesn’t matter. And as of now I like the way I look, as years progressed I gained inner beauty. And I think that is what really matters.
    not the “shade” of skin you have.

    I’m only 15, so sorry if I sound like a bafoon!

    Posted 07 Jun 2008 at 12:02 am ¶

81. pg wrote:

    I have really fair, even pale, skin. I’m south asian, I always get complimented on my “white skin” by older relatives. However, I get told by a lot of younger people that I “need to get a tan.” I feel as if the media influences the younger generations quite a bit, and that is why we’re led to believe that being tan is the way to go, because all the hot models we see on tv are this way. However, I feel that beauty depends on your features, not the colour of your skin. But we all want what we can’t have… I find myself longing for tanner skin, but I never go through with it because of my fear of skin cancer.

    Posted 11 Jun 2008 at 1:47 am ¶

82. DestinedForGreatness wrote:

    Hello All,

    First of all, I would like to acknowledge the fact that I am a man speaking amongst women in a conversation by which I really have no experience in. I have never heard of any type of skin bleaching, or blemish removal, but the main thing I am questioning is what the meaning of these commercials are. Is this blog saying that the main focus of the advertising is being placed on gaining lighter skin? Are we listening to an advertiser that says that the whiter you are, the more appealing you appear? Personally, I have a problem with that, however I don’t exactly know which culture these advertisements are shown in, or which country these products are sold. I can only assume that they aren’t American products, which is what I am. I am confused simply by the fact that I’ve never been exposed to the idea that being lighter is more attractive. I come from a culture where the majority of “represented people” are dying to appear darker. Millions of dollars are spent on people trying to fry themselves into a “golden brown.” I have never heard of anyone being called “tall, light and handsome.”

    I lack the knowledge of the history of “skin appeal”, especially in whatever culture or geographical location this is all in, but usually when I am photographed, I prefer that the exposure on the camera would make my skin brighter, so all of the mid-tones in my complexion will stand out. This leads me to believe that this is what the advertiser is emphasizing. Perhaps they aren’t exactly saying that “light is right.” I think they are saying something more along the lines of “bright is right.” Dull is boring, but bright is exciting.

    Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 4:42 pm ¶

83. Slush wrote:

    “Is this blog saying that the main focus of the advertising is being placed on gaining lighter skin? Are we listening to an advertiser that says that the whiter you are, the more appealing you appear? ”

    Yep, that’s about right. If you haven’t seen this before, you may find that you start noticing it more now that it’s been pointed out to you. It’s in many countries including America. Pretty much everywhere I’ve ever been, some places more starkly than others. Which, I don’t know, might could be related to the fact that the same few media companies own most of the advertising business in the world.

    Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 5:32 pm ¶

84. Nikki wrote:

    Hm. Well, look at it this way -
    I live in Australia.. and girls here will spend $200 getting fake tan, hours at a solarium (which has been linked to skin cancer) and hours in the sun at the beach to become brown. Being fair over here is ‘bad’ and ‘pastey’ – so why is it so different to Indian women trying to become fairer? Don’t most of us spend hundreds of dollars on makeup, hair straightners etc? Isn’t the main problem not what the media promotes, but our own self-hatred (i know, it sounds extreme) that is the problem? I mean, the media promotes/sells things that we want. If we didn’t want to be fairer, then we wouldn’t buy these products. If we didn’t want to have straight hair, we wouldn’t buy $300 hair straightners. Before we go pointing fingers at the media / unilever / whatever, think about the last time you spent a ridiculous amount of money on something completely unnecessary in the effort to look ‘beautiful’.

    Posted 10 Jul 2008 at 11:36 pm ¶

85. sanjana wrote:

    hello girls um…. i am wondering how do these indian actresses bleach their faces because th bleach you buy at stores they make the hair longer so i dont use that. one day i was looking at one of the indian actresses pics up close and i saw the facial hair and hair on the arms so i dont know what do they do for their faces and body please help me someone, thank you.

    Posted 12 Aug 2008 at 6:14 am ¶

86. Sam wrote:

    I am Indian and my sister used to use this stuff. This is the byproduct of Caucasian invasion throughout the world. Don’t get me wrong, I love American and the Western world but old perceptions die hard.

    Because Indians (and Blacks of course) were taken as slaves and seen as second class citizens, being “white” gave you status and that has translated into todays society.

    However, those that I know who use this product (and I believe them wholeheartedly) do not want to be ‘white.’ In fact, being white and pasty is not desirable anymore. They want to have fairer, even tone skin.

    Think of it this way. White people go to the beach or salons specifically to tan. To have a fair yet light brown tone. Is it really so extraordinary that darker people want that same tone?

    Posted 03 Oct 2008 at 7:49 pm ¶

87. Lurker wrote:

    I used to use these creams (Ambi) in my teens ans early twenties for the hyperpimentation that followed any spots.

    Basically every winter, around the end of December when my skin was at its palest (which set off the hyperpigmentation nicely ) I used these skin lighners for around 2 months, by the time spring/summer came round and darkened my skin, the hyperpigmented spots had evened out to become invisible. I can’t say I lked my skin colour as produced by the lighner! It was a very unhealthy colour, not just pale, but ugh! The wait for the sum always felt like a long wait, but worth it to get rid of the dalmation look. In terms of just getting paler per sae, I don’t get it! Skin of all shades can be beautiful if it is healthy.

    Posted 29 Dec 2008 at 6:44 pm ¶

88. nepaliketi wrote:

    well, fair and lovely can kiss my ass.

    join the group if it can yours as well =D

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=137726983374&ref=mf

    Posted 03 Sep 2009 at 2:52 pm ¶

89. Lisa C wrote:

    I am not sure this has anything to do with colored women wanting to be white women. unfortuanltely i am sure it has to do with colored women HAVING to look similar in order to fit into our society. so, thats not really about them now is it. it is ridiculous that anyone with a darker complexion (and generally more beautiful than most caucasions) in North America should feel the need to lighten their skin to obtain fricken employment. It all boils down to the fact that even tho we have had laws set forth about racial discrimination we are still racist. Even to employers are suppose to advertise using equal opportunity…they do not. Open your eyes people, take a look in your own mirror…

    Posted 10 Sep 2009 at 10:21 am ¶