HRC is not RFK

by Latoya Peterson

I am interrupting my own self-imposed silence on Hillary Rodham Clinton’s most recent comments* to address something I have been seeing with disturbing frequency on pro-Hillary blogs.

Hillary Clinton is not Robert F. Kennedy. They were not in the same position. They are not fighting the same kind of fight. So can we please stop this foolishness?

Over on Shakesville, a commenter stated:

mojave_wolf 05/24/2008 05:13 PM 2 points

Well, RFK Jr wasn’t offended by this and is still in Hillary’s camp, and I think if anyone is in a position to know what she’s talking about whether it’s offensive, it’s him.

I was so happy to see Kathy’s post up above — What’s really disturbing about the reaction to Hillary’s analogy (aside from the way MSNBC initially took it out of context to produce exactly this sort of reaction, and that RFK Jr’s immediately coming to her defense is getting practically no play) is that all the people freaking out about the comment are completely ignorant of the fact that *HILLARY* is in the Bobby Kennedy position.

Kennedy, like Hillary, was staying in the race while behind in hopes of building momentum and catching up (some differences–he was behind in part because he started late; she is a lot closer in delegates and actually is the leader in the popular vote)

Oh hell no.

And I saw this same load of crap repeated on various other sites (though it should be noted that most of the Shakes comments I read did not follow this line of argument.)

Now, dear readers, I am not old enough to remember RFKs run for office. My parents are not old enough to remember RFKs run for office.

So I called my boyfriend’s grandmother.

She was born in 1932, has worked in Washington since the 1950s, and keeps up with politics like it’s a sport. She refers to the nightly news anchors on a first name basis. So I knew she would know.

I basically asked her to verify the facts I spotted in this month’s cover feature for Vanity Fair. Titled “The Last Good Campaign” with text excerpted from The Last Campaign: Robert F. Kennedy and 82 Days That Inspired America, by Thurston Clarke.

The article is fascinating as it transports the reader right to 1968 – all the uncertainty, the strangeness, the tense political climate, and the terse social climate. Clarke makes a point to tell the story as true to reality as he could – all moments of uncertainty are documented and R.F. Kennedy’s failures as a candidate are in full view. And, through this guided narrative, the key characteristics of the campaign are presented.

Kennedy was the Underdog from Day One

Unlike HRC, who was considered the presumptive nominee until Barack Obama crashed her party, Robert F. Kennedy was advised against running from the moment he opened his mouth to consider the possibility.

Ted Kennedy, Ted Sorensen, and other former J.F.K. White House aides—men whom Robert Kennedy described to New York Times reporter Anthony Lewis as “most everyone whom I respect”—were strongly opposed to his running. They argued that he could not win, that party and union leaders were certain to back Johnson, and that a Kennedy candidacy risked being viewed as another chapter in the long-running Kennedy-Johnson feud, dating back to the 1960 campaign, rather than as an honest difference over policy. They also pointed out that if Republicans won the White House in 1968 the Democratic leadership would blame Kennedy and oppose giving him the nomination in 1972. Some were afraid that, as Jackie Kennedy had said to Arthur Schlesinger Jr., “the same thing that happened to Jack” would happen to Bobby, although most knew Bobby well enough not to voice these fears to him. In 1996, Ted Kennedy admitted to biographer Adam Clymer that he had feared Bobby might be assassinated. “We weren’t that far away from ‘63 [when J.F.K. was killed],” he said, “and that was still very much of a factor.”

[...]

The fact that Bobby’s wife, Ethel, and Ted Kennedy were on opposite sides of the debate contributed to Bobby’s indecision. Ted was a more cautious and canny politician than Bobby, and more inclined to adhere to Senate and party rules and customs. He was so certain that entering the race in 1968 would be a mistake that he enlisted others in his campaign, even approaching Senator George McGovern in the Senate gymnasium and raising his concerns.

RFK Directly Challenged an Incumbent Democratic President…

Bobby announced his candidacy on March 16 in the caucus room of the Old Senate Office Building, the room that his brother had used for the same purpose. He stood in the same spot and began with the same sentence: “I am announcing today my candidacy for the presidency of the United States.” After saying that he was running to “close the gaps that now exist between black and white, between rich and poor, between young and old,” he concluded with a passage that made him sound like his brother, perhaps because it had been contributed in part by Ted Sorensen, who had been his brother’s speechwriter: “I do not lightly dismiss the dangers and the difficulties of challenging an incumbent President. But these are not ordinary times and this is not an ordinary election. At stake is not simply the leadership of our party and even our country. It is our right to the moral leadership of this planet.”


…Based on Moral Concerns about the Future of the Country

But two events occurring at the end of November made his candidacy virtually inevitable. The first was his November 26 appearance on Face the Nation, during which he characterized the argument that Americans were fighting in Vietnam to prevent Communism from threatening the mainland as “immoral,” saying, “Do we have the right here in the United States to say that we’re going to kill tens of thousands, make millions of people, as we have, refugees, kill women and children, as we have? … I very seriously question whether we have that right.” Then, continuing to frame the issue in moral terms, he said, “When we use napalm, when a village is destroyed and civilians are killed … this is a moral obligation and a moral responsibility for us here in the United States.” A panelist asked why, if he felt this way, he believed that Johnson should run for a second term. Because there was no honest answer to this question, Kennedy hedged. During a meeting with Kennedy the following January, the influential columnist Walter Lippmann pointed to the same conundrum, telling him, according to Arthur Schlesinger Jr., who had arranged the meeting, “Well, if you believe that Johnson’s reelection would be a catastrophe for the country—and I entirely agree with you on this … the question you must live with is whether you did everything you could to avert this catastrophe.”


RFK Took Responsibility for an Unpopular Decision About the Vietnam War

Kennedy opened his attack on President Johnson’s Vietnam policy with a confession and an apology. “Let me begin this discussion with a note both personal and public,” he said. “I was involved in many of the early decisions on Vietnam, decisions which helped set us on our present path.”

He acknowledged that the effort may have been “doomed from the start” and admitted that the South Vietnamese governments, which his brother’s administration had supported, had been “riddled with corruption, inefficiency, and greed,” adding, “If that is the case, as it may well be, then I am willing to bear my share of the responsibility, before history and before my fellow citizens. But past error is no excuse for its own perpetration. Tragedy is a tool for the living to gain wisdom Now, as ever, we do ourselves best justice when we measure ourselves against ancient texts, as in Sophocles [from Antigone]: ‘All men make mistakes, but a good man yields when he knows his course is wrong, and he repairs the evil.’ The only sin, he said, is pride.”

Some other items of note:

Kennedy took stands that were not politically advantageous

Edwin Guthman, who had served as his press officer in the Justice Department, learned that he had decided to run when Kennedy called to ask whether Guthman thought he should accept an invitation to fly to Delano, California, on March 10 and join Cesar Chavez, the head of the farmworkers’ union, in ending Chavez’s 25-day fast affirming his commitment to nonviolence. After discussing whether Kennedy should go, Guthman asked if he was planning to run. “I think I have to,” he replied. “If I don’t, I’ll have to support Gene McCarthy, and I can’t do it in good conscience. A lot of people are still against it. The Democratic Senators who are up for election will be upset, but Tet has changed everything, and if I don’t go now and make an effort in the primaries, I think I’ll be nothing.”

Guthman pointed out that supporting Chavez might cost him the support of some voters in the California primary. “I know,” Kennedy replied, “but I like Cesar.”

Kennedy Operated Under the Threat of Violence

One might have thought that Ethel Kennedy—who knew that during her husband’s term as attorney general the telephones at Hickory Hill, the Kennedys’ home in McLean, Virginia, had rung with threats such as “We know where your kids go to school and we know how they get there” and “Do you know what hydrochloric acid can do to your eyes?”—would be the last person to want Bobby to run. But she was almost as complicated as he was: recklessly frank yet guarded, canny and guileless, brash and sensitive, an observant Catholic who threw wild parties and hobnobbed with celebrities. Perhaps she wanted him to run because she imagined it would be great fun, a kind of nonstop Hickory Hill party, or because she was competitive with Jackie and considered it her turn to be First Lady, or because she believed her husband’s fate was in God’s hands. More likely, it was because she understood him better than anyone, believed in him more, was convinced he would be a great president, and knew he would never forgive himself if he sat out the race.

[...]

The right-wing columnist Westbrook Pegler, who had also been a ferocious critic of F.D.R. and the New Deal, welcomed the possibility that, as he put it, “some white patriot of the Southern tier will spatter his [Kennedy’s] spoonful of brains in public premises before the snow flies,” and J. Edgar Hoover’s deputy Clyde Tolson remarked offhandedly, “I hope that someone shoots and kills the son of a bitch.”

[...]

Before returning to the Kansas City airport, the Kennedy press corps stopped for a quick restaurant meal. Jimmy Breslin asked a table of reporters, “Do you think this guy has the stuff to go all the way?”

“Yes, of course he has the stuff to go all the way,” John J. Lindsay replied. “But he’s not going to go all the way. The reason is that somebody is going to shoot him. I know it and you know it. Just as sure as we’re sitting here somebody is going to shoot him. He’s out there now waiting for him And, please God, I don’t think we’ll have a country after it.”

There was a stunned silence. Then, one by one, the other reporters agreed. But none asked the most heartbreaking question: Did Kennedy himself know it?

Kennedy Inspired Loyalty

It was a small though acceptable crowd, given that Kennedy was staying only long enough to board Docking’s private plane. But while he was still on the stairs, the doors of the terminal flew open and more than a thousand people, led by a vanguard of young women screaming “Bobby!,” dashed across the tarmac. After they pinned him against the bottom of the stairway he laughed and, delighted by their enthusiasm, began, “We’re going to change the policy of the United States.” When he finished he told them they had just heard his first campaign speech, adding, “Now, let’s all clap.”

Reporters called it a turnout worthy of a general election, and evidence of a “subterranean longing for change,” but it was less spontaneous than it seemed. Herb Schmertz, who would later become known for the Mobil Oil essays he placed in advertisements on the New York Times op-ed page, had brought in a busload of TWA flight-attendant trainees and announced Kennedy’s imminent arrival over the public-address system. Unlike most Kennedy staffers, Schmertz believed in the Vietnam War, and still does. When asked why he worked for Kennedy, he offers some breezy explanations, such as “Campaigns attract the most beautiful women” and “You know, you don’t necessarily have to agree with your candidate on everything,” before giving the real Honorary Kennedy reason: “Ah, well, the things you do for your friends.”

Somehow, RFK managed to keep black support.

See above photo. Just saying.


RFK was a Rockstar Candidate, Whose Main Draw in the Beginning was College Students

Because Kennedy attracted a record-setting crowd of 14,500, students stood in stairwells, sat cross-legged on the basketball court and under the press tables, and perched on the rafters and scoreboard, dangling their legs in space. Their signs said, bobby is groovy! and kiss me, bobby. Others said, gene for integrity and traitor!

The Kennedys walked onto the dais with Kansas State president James McCain, Governor and Mrs. Docking, and former governor Alf Landon. The students jumped up, cheering, stamping their feet, and scuffing up clouds of dust that dimmed the light and hung like smoke. They cheered because Kennedy was youthful and handsome, John Kennedy’s brother, and he reminded them of happier times. Seventeen-year-old Kevin Rochat, the son of a K.S.U. official, cheered because he thought everything had gone wrong since J.F.K.’s assassination, and only his brother could make it right. Ralph Titus, who managed the university radio station, believes these conservative students cheered because Vietnam had made even them uneasy.

[...]

As he started to leave, waves of students rushed the platform, knocking over chairs and raising more dust. They grabbed at him, stroking his hair and ripping his shirtsleeves. Herb Schmertz was left with a lifelong phobia of crowds. University officials opened a path to a rear exit, but Kennedy waved them off and waded into the crowd. Photographer Stanley Tretick, of Look magazine, watched the mêlée and shouted, “This is Kansas, fucking Kansas! He’s going all the fucking way!”

[...]

To help promote Kennedy’s second speech of the day, at the University of Kansas, the campaign had planted an editorial in the school’s newspaper criticizing its students for being “conservative and apathetic.” This had the desired effect of swelling the audience at the Allen Fieldhouse to 19,000, one of the largest in university history. Kennedy’s reception was even more raucous than at Kansas State. Witnesses spoke of “roaring students” and “raw emotion let loose.” Reporter Jack Newfield, from The Village Voice, described it as “emotion beyond reason, cheering until saliva ran, clapping until hands hurt,” and New York Post columnist Jimmy Breslin believed it indicated that “the day when a politician can survive with slogans may be gone.”

After completing the seven page article, and talking to the some other family elders, I have no idea why anyone would even attempt to argue that HRC is in the position of RFK. At the very least, one would think her supporters would notice the similarities between the Kennedy campaign and Barack Obama’s. Also, when you notice that HRC chose not to stand up against an incumbent Republican president during a time of great crisis, the analogy makes even less sense.

There is no way Hillary was talking about herself when referencing the RFK campaign. Perhaps she was talking about timing, but even still, bringing up an assassination is bad form. Bringing up an assassination to attempt to justify your campaign continuing is just disgusting.

If, heaven forbid, someone were to pop HRC, I highly doubt her portrait would be hung in the kitchens of grandmothers around the nation, next to MLK, JFK, and RFK. Just saying.

*I have not been directly writing about what Hillary has been saying, just linking to people who discuss it. I am waiting for a large feminist blog to address how fucked up HRC is being as this campaign goes on. They need not reject and denounce HRC as a candidate, they just need to reference that there are some problems. Or even reference that some people may have a case for having problems with her comments. From the looks of things, it appears that I will be silent forever.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Sherry Chandler on 29 May 2008 at 5:12 am

    [...] at Racialicious, which I found to be strongly undermined by her strident vocabulary that “hell no…there is no way Hillary was talking about herself when referencing the RFK campaign.&#… Latoya’s voice is one I really respect in the ’sphere, yet so is Pocochina’s, who [...]

Comments

  1. macintyre wrote:

    I think the Hillary = RFK is a logical fallacy stemming from the premise that Obama = Eugene McCarthy. Of course, it does not follow that if Obama is McCarthy, then Hillary must be RFK!

    Now, what I don’t understand is why it would be an insult to say Obama is like McCarthy. I think it’s because McCarthy was considered a candidate who only had the benefit of the anti-war youngsters but couldn’t win in a general election?

  2. X wrote:

    My grandmother was there at the Ambassador Hotel when RFK was killed, and like many Chicano/as feels a connection with Hillary very similar to the one she felt with RFK.

    When my grandmother was volunteering in the East LA office for Hillary, she often remarked about how the only other time she’s seen a coalition as diverse and as broad as the one that was working to elect Hillary was for Robert Kennedy.

    And I think its funny that you say “Kennedy took responsibility for an unpopular Vietnam War” and “Took positions that weren’t politically advantageous” right next to each other… because Hillary could have easily been like John Edwards or any of the other Democrats and apologize for her vote for the authorization of use of force, fulfilling your first criticism, but you’d probably just attack her for taking a position that was politically advantageous.

  3. Afroamericawriter wrote:

    I wrote about Hillary’s fuzzy math in connection with the RFK assassination here:
    http://afroamericawriter.blogspot.com/2008/05/sen-clinton-and-rfk-assassination_26.html#links and maybe you could check out this link: http://www.npr.org/blogs/newsandviews/2008/05/the_racism_vs_sexism_debate_re.html

  4. leftofemma wrote:

    I think that Pam over on Pandagon has been doing a good job of following the crazy coming from the Clinton camp or people loosly associated with Clinton. While not a deep analysis, I think that this post was very critical of that speech: http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/report-open-civil-war-if-clinton-not-given-vp-slot-brings-up-rfk-assassination/
    Are you looking for something more in depth? Not an accusation or anything. Just asking.

  5. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    leftofemma –

    1. I don’t read Pandagon anymore, but I do still follow Pam’s blog. I generally consider her blog a generally progressive blog, not specifically feminist, though she does cover those issues.

    That being said – and I should have mentioned this on the other thread – I am not surprised that Pam is calling that mess out. I should probably update the post to specifically say “white” blogs, but at this point, I’ll even take a WoC writing for a blog to voice a dissenting opinion. Still waiting.

    And X -

    because Hillary could have easily been like John Edwards or any of the other Democrats and apologize for her vote for the authorization of use of force, fulfilling your first criticism, but you’d probably just attack her for taking a position that was politically advantageous.

    How is apologizing for the use of force politically advantageous when a large chunk of government funding is flowing toward military spending, and by denouncing/voting against said spending, the senator or representative cuts themselves off from the flow of cash? It is easier to side with the Bushes, particularly with military spending funding jobs and contributing to the economy.

  6. Abu Sinan wrote:

    Posted “because Hillary could have easily been like John Edwards or any of the other Democrats and apologize for her vote for the authorization of use of force”

    You are right, she didnt apologise, she actually tried to JUSTIFY it. That is much, much worse.

  7. leftofemma wrote:

    Latoya-
    Fair enough. Than I fear we may be waiting forever.

  8. HighJive wrote:

    Dan Quayle compared himself to JFK. Hillary Clinton draws comparisons to RFK. There’s a pattern here, folks.

  9. lowercase tasha wrote:

    I think a better post would be Obama is not RFK or MLK or JFK because whenever such comparisons are made to him, they draw less ire from the left, even considering that such comparisons are also historically inaccurate. Hillary made that RFK remark in reference to calls for her to drop out of the campaign, in essence saying, “Hey, like me, RFK was still campaigning around this time, so why are you telling me to quit?” Obama has previously invoked Dr. King in speeches. MLK was assassinated too, however, I’ve haven’t seen any op-eds about how such a comparison is dangerous or disingenuous. When you think about it, the possibility of Obama’s assasination is far less probably than RFK’s. Unlike RFK, who had a rag tag security detail, Obama is guarded by actual Secret Service. And who’s to say that Hillary isn’t under the threat of violence as well? Maybe she just doesn’t say anything about it, or the media doesn’t pay attention to it, they way they do with Obama? Like I said in the other post, Hillary’s under “coded speech” surveillance. People stay on their grind with that. So she should know better than to think that she could allude to a DNC POTUS candidate that was assassinated and not catch hell.

    And Latoya there are all kinds of reasons why if someone were to assassinate Hillary she wouldn’t get the RFK, MLK, JFK (all these K’s) treatment. All three of those people are men who won people over with powerful oratory. All three, as well as Obama, are considered to be very dynamic speakers. How many women are on that “dynamic speaker” list? Not too many because people don’t connect with the octave of Hillary’s voice. They mock it.

    @X

    You bring up a really good point, because many here would just rather assume that the reason why Hillary has such a sure footing with Hispanics is because they’re all racist and Hill has name recognition. What often doesn’t get discussed is the work and outreach she did to court the Hispanic vote.

  10. Erica B. wrote:

    Thanks for a good history lesson. There are lots of details about RFK’s candidacy and assassination that got lost over time — I appreciate getting a refresher.

    Also, excellent that you went to the source and talked to people who were around then!

  11. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    lct –

    Feel free to correct me if I am wrong (with a link preferrably) but I haven’t heard anyone credible try to pass Obama off as the next coming of JFK/RFK/or MLK after he fucks something up.

    Connections drawn to his oratory skill, yes, but not his candidacy. And I recall a lot of pundits comparing the tone and timing of BHOs race speech to some of JFKs speeches.

    And, I have no doubt that Obama is running on the same Camelot image that JFK employed so well.

    There’s a big difference between those things and referencing an assassination. (BTW, she made two of the comments as you paraphrased; it was her third comment as well as the subsequent blog fallout that made me write this post.)

    MLK was assassinated too, however, I’ve haven’t seen any op-eds about how such a comparison is dangerous or disingenuous.

    When did Obama bring up King’s assassination as a justification for him staying in the race until the end?

    And Latoya there are all kinds of reasons why if someone were to assassinate Hillary she wouldn’t get the RFK, MLK, JFK (all these K’s) treatment.

    Yup. Generally you have to accomplish something big and then die while most of your supporters still like you. And, if you read the article I linked, RFK wasn’t that great of an orator. He was nervous all the time and was really bad at making small talk.

    He did manage to get the words out when they mattered, and that’s one of the reasons why he is remembered.

  12. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Erica B. –

    Yeah, I had to go to the source. A lot of my education centered around JFK, not RFK so I wasn’t familiar with his platform or anything.

    Plus, you can’t trust Vanity Fair – for every great article they publish a headscratcher to go with it.

    One of the things that nailed down the importance of RFK to me was talking to boyfriend’s grandma, and she told me about the speech RFK gave to break the news that MLK had been assassinated and how he had broken through the anger and helped people to grieve.

    Speech is here:
    http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/rfk.htm

    Which, to me, is made more interesting because he was such a nervous speaker.

    History is an interesting thing.

  13. marge twain wrote:

    Having heard her whole speech, it’s obvious she’s referring to how long primary campaigns have been in the past and her main point stands: that there is an unprecedented effort going on to dismiss her viability as a candidate and push her out of the race. Perhaps more feminist blogs haven’t called her out for her statements because they are being thoroughly twisted everywhere else and the’d prefer to remind people of the main point of that speech?

    Melissa at Shakesville did say that the remark was insensitive and an apology was warranted whether or not Clinton made the gaffe on purpose. She later updated that post with this:
    “when I step on someone’s foot unintentionally and say I’m sorry, that doesn’t give them license to premeditatedly punch me in the nose and claim I deserved it. ”
    Rage and bile rains down on Clinton defenders, online and IRL. Melissa has to deal with this, over and over, explaining that you don’t have to be racist or a Clinton supporter to take issue with her treatment.
    Clinton herself did not compare herself to RFK, indeed, I wouldn’t compare her to anyone in American history. The events of this primary have no parallel but I have no doubt the next female candidate will face the same obstacles.

  14. Rounder wrote:

    I’m not one of the Hillary haters, and I’m more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt on the RFK thing. I don’t think she meant it the way it was portrayed by sites like MSNBC.com. That said, her wording was really really bad, especially when you consider that Sen. Obama already has a pretty healthy Secret Security detail. I really hope she is able to exit the race gracefully. Soon.

  15. Black Canseco wrote:

    It’s called “benefit of the doubt” for a reason: it’s not a right or something owed to you. it’s a benefit, and option that in theory at least is based on some semblance of a track record for honesty and understanding that no one is 100% one way or the other all the time, so you listen, research and learn and draw conclusions based on each event.

    When it comes to HRC, she’s losing the “benefit of the doubt” for me simply because she has a track record of lying, distorting her own facts (she was pro-NAFTA into the early 2000s, had nothing to do with North Ireland Peace treaty despite her claims, no sniper fire in Bosina, etc…).

    With all that said, I take her at her word when she says RFK was assassinated in June.

    It wasn’t just stupid, it was myopic, me-me-me-centric, if something bad happens to someone else i still have a shot.

  16. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Marge –

    The unprecedented angle has been disputed, but I haven’t looked into it. See here:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/27/us/politics/27checkpoint.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

      Yet the Clinton campaign in 1992 used some of the same tactics that Mrs. Clinton and her supporters now decry, like declaring the nomination secure early and encouraging party leaders and the news media to climb on board. (Via TPM)

    [Sorry, those are my notes to look into for tomorrow's links.]

    And yes, I saw the Shakes post. I think the question it becomes for many people is “was this yet another unintentional slip” – because there have been a lot of these “slips” and one does have cause to wonder.

    Rage and bile rains down on Clinton defenders, online and IRL. Melissa has to deal with this, over and over, explaining that you don’t have to be racist or a Clinton supporter to take issue with her treatment.

    Yeah, I grant that. I just find it strange to have all this defense of Hillary without even a mention of anything else muddling the dynamic. Now, we got the nudge on the sexism part a while back, and while I am not posting on it, I will link to good explanations of sexism and how it is employed toward HRC. I don’t think it’s that hard to admit your candidate is flawed and where they fucked up and still defend them against unwarranted attacks.

    What I feel is happening is the fact that a lot of pro-Hillary blogs are severely underestimating the damage being done by not acknowledging the race baiting and over the line comments. The election is going to end. We will eventually have a new President. But I saw a whole lot of ugliness during this campaign and I am kind of stunned by the silence of our supposed blogosphere friends.

    I guess that’s where priorities lie.

    I keep toying around with the idea of posting something on the political records of each candidate and really digging into policy and reality but considering the level of conversation elsewhere, I don’t think there’d be a point to it. Can there even be a substantive discussion with this much bad blood on both sides?

  17. kd wrote:

    Latoya, shouldn’t you be upset at Obama for the constant comparisons to JFK, RFK and MLK. Not only my his supporters but by himself? I’m not trying to change the emphasis of your post but I’m really getting sick of these double standards by Obama supporters. Baraka has said many things that could be twisted (i.e. that Israel is a sore wound). But most rational people -myself included-concluded that we “knew what whe was trying to say.” But when the Clintons say anything that could be maybe, possibly, tangentally be interpreted in a negative way; people seem to assume they they meant it in the worst possible way. Why?

  18. m dot wrote:

    Very thorough. I’m so encouraged to find great blogs.

    what i’m most tired of is hill-dawg’s ridiculous explanation for her logorrhea – fatigue. maybe she needs to take a permament nap from this campaign and get it together.

  19. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Kd –

    Sure, pass me a link to when he said it.
    One of the problems I see, like when I posted about sexism toward Hillary from Barack’s campaign, is that people don’t pull evidence in favor of their candidate. I get shit about Hillary sent to me all the time – links, videos, transcripts. Just point me to where it is.

    Also, please keep in mind margin of human error. For example, I was going to freak out at Shakesville until I decided to double check the post. Melissa didn’t say it, one of her commenters did. I notice this tends to happen a lot as well – things that surrogates or commenters or bloggers say is falsely attributed to someone else. It’s a simple lapse in memory. It happens. But that’s why I ask for back up – who actually said the comment.

    The assassination comment? Straight from HRCs mouth. I could post the video, but everyone else has it, so what’s the point?

    People assume that HRC means things negatively because her campaign has a history of that sly ass double speak. You know, just like all of Obama’s “terribly sexist” comments that I asked people to come up with? And I noticed that even when HRC clearly explains she meant what she said (like Barack can’t win, because her hardworking white supporters aren’t pulling the lever for the black guy) all I hear is the sweet sound of silence from over there.

    So as it stands, I don’t think anyone is going to be happy. I see just as many irrational HRC supporters as you see irrational Obama supporters. And while I can argue and debate about the sexism, you all see fit to ignore the racism. So here we sit, at an impasse.

    Like I said, biases are out there. I’m Probama and so are the rest of the site contributers. (Nadra, I’m not sure of, she just started today.) And we cover race, which is something that HRC doesn’t have to deal with as “white” is seen as the default. So you will continue to see Probama coverage here. If someone chooses to write or send me a link to a great piece about Hillary, I’ll post it. But that doesn’t happen.

  20. Joseph wrote:

    @Latoya
    Thank you for such a detailed and thoughtful response to this nonsense. I hope you keep posting on this.

    I was (and I think this is the right word for it)… relieved… to hear the outright racism of the blustery pink hillbillies who looked right at the national news cameras during the West Virginia Primary and said: “I won’t vote for Obama because he is black.” Or, (this Arab’s personal favorite) “I don’t like that ‘Hussein.’ I have had enough ‘Hussein.’”

    There is no mystery there. They will never vote for him. Ever. Because he is black. Even though it would be in their best interest to have a Democrat in the White House. Okey-doke.

    The main difference between these “hard working white Americans” and their upper/middle class “feminist” analogues on the Pro-Hillary blogs? Honesty. I’d prefer it if they just went ahead and said it. If they did, things would continue pretty much as they have been but we would have (finally) gotten down to brass tacks.

    Because, truthfully, crap like this Shakesville post is wearing me out. Battling race and ethno-centrism every day is one thing. But hypocrisy and self-delusion at this level is too much for my delicate desert-bred system.

    I may have to lie down with a cool rag on my forehead.

  21. Persia wrote:

    Hilzoy at Obsidian Wings has a post that might qualify. The XX Factor, the group women’s blog at Slate, has some entries on it too.

    The thing that really blows my mind is the “RFK, Jr. wasn’t offended so no one else should be” argument. Hello, straw man, I wasn’t talking to you.

    (mods– reposted with fixed HMTL; go ahead and delete the first comment, sorry!)

  22. HighJive wrote:

    kd,

    You can blame Caroline Kennedy for the Obama-JFK comparisons. Could we not argue that anyone continuing the comparisons is doing so with the Kennedy family’s approval?

  23. Manju wrote:

    ” How many women are on that “dynamic speaker” list?”

    There’s Thathcer. Here’s a great moment in Feminism: after the soviet leader prejoritively dubbed her “the iron lady” , Thatcher decided to embrace the titile.

    Speaking at a formal ball she said (paraphase): “I sand before you, in my pink chiffon dress, the Iron Lady of Europe.”

    The audience fell apart. You had to be there.

  24. Brooklynite wrote:

    Tasha, I don’t think you need to assume ill-will on Clinton’s part to recognize that her statement was a huge blunder, and something she should have apologized for much more forthrightly than she did. (I’ve written about why, from my own perspective as a white man, here.)

    You can say that people shouldn’t have responded to Clinton’s remarks the way they did, but the fact is that there’s a historical context for that response, and it’s a context that should be taken seriously by any Democratic candidate for president.

  25. Sarah J wrote:

    Hilzoy has indeed been an excellent commenter on the racial issues raised in this campaign. However, Obsidian Wings isn’t really a mainstream feminist blog, more of a mainstream lefty blog, and Hilzoy is an Obama supporter.

    What I think (pardon me for assuming, Latoya) we all want to see is someone who supports Hillary Clinton admit that there’s been blatant race-baiting coming from that campaign, not its supporters, but the campaign.

    I have been trying for months now to get a Hillary supporter to be interviewed for one of my other gigs and could not get anyone to go on record with me. All I see are comments about how there’s sexism aimed at Hillary Clinton–and I agree, there absolutely has been–but I want other white feminists to admit that there’s been racism too.

  26. HighJive wrote:

    Kd,

    One more thing. You asked:

    “But when the Clintons say anything that could be maybe, possibly, tangentially be interpreted in a negative way; people seem to assume they meant it in the worst possible way. Why?”

    Well, because they probably meant it in the worst possible way. Hillary Clinton has demonstrated time and again that she is one of the most calculating, rehearsed, focus-group-testing candidates in history (and she learned it all from husband Bill). She doesn’t say anything without research scores to show it will get the effect she desires. The presumptions about her have nothing to do with race or gender. There are no double standards here. It’s based on her documented actions and subsequent behavior.

  27. marge twain wrote:

    @Latoya:
    “The unprecedented angle has been disputed, but I haven’t looked into it. See here:”

    Thanks for finding my lost comment and for the early peek at tomorrow’s content :) I did read it. What Clinton is pointing out is not that she is just like Bill in 1992 or RFK in 1968. It doesn’t disprove the “unprecedented” argument to show her asimilarities with those candidates.
    She says, and I agree, that it’s unprecedented for a candidate to be smeared as a spoiler(as she has been since February) by the media and members of her own party. No other frontrunner has been so disrespected by so many. If some blogs make it their sole mission to defend her, that’s because they feel alone in doing so.

    “I don’t think it’s that hard to admit your candidate is flawed and where they fucked up and still defend them against unwarranted attacks. ”

    You spoke earlier of your reluctance to post about sexism directed at Clinton. I think your reasons were that the racism is more of a problem for you and that you don’t want people to think you approve of her(?) I respect your reasons for doing so since this is a race blog. Meanwhile lots of popular and explicitly feminist blogs including The Curvature, Feministing, Shakesville, and Feministe(that’s just off the top of my head) have been far from uncritical of Clinton. many have also been critical of racism in this campaign; some are places where any mention of sexism directed at Clinton will come with the caveat that the author doesn’t support her. I know you are aware of this, and are surely aware that some smaller feminist blogs(like Astarte’s Circus or The Apostate) and explicitly pro-Clinton blogs are the only places a Clinton supporter can go and not have to deal with double standards and distortions of her record. So should they be held to a different standard than Racialicious and various pro-Obama blogs? If feminists need to represent WoC by examining racism towards a black man
    (and they do need to examine racism towards WoC) why doesn’t the anti-racist/mainstream left have the same responsibility towards that overlap? I’m sorry if this ground has been covered here before, but I really have never been clear on where pro-Clinton WoC fit in at Racialicious. If you don’t feel the need to represent us, that’s fine, I’m going to keep reading here for other reasons, but don’t ask pro-Clinton bloggers to do what you’re not willing to.

  28. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @ Marge –

    I said I haven’t looked at it yet. I will look into it, based on your assertion that she has been smeared as a spoiler since Feb.

    WRT, Hillary – I find it difficult to believably defend her against sexism without feeling like I am feeding into the machine. There is the expectation that defending Hillary Clinton means denying all claims of racism against her – and I do believe that she has allowed race baiting in her name. So while I understand and deplore the use of misogyny by media pundits, I haven’t seen anything too damning from the Obama camp. Had he said something like “It takes a real man to do this kind of job” I would have been all over it. But he has not. And Hillary has been a lot less subtle.

    I am also trying to make sure there is a decent balance between political/non-political content here. I could blog all day about what’s going on – but so are a lot of blogs that I used to like to read. The primaries have become all consuming and while I enjoy the coverage, it has made me more vigilant about what I post here.

    Even still, there are things I want to post on because it highlights disagreements – like with the Hillary Sexism post, Meownette pointed out that he pulled out the chair for her at a debate which she saw as sexist. I didn’t see it that way. And that will probably be a post in itself – the difference in perception of sexism, particularly in the black community. But I’ve already had two posts on politics and a third scheduled this week, so it will probably wait a while.

    The Curvature has been doing a great job with the balance of coverage – I shouted Cara out in the links not too long ago. Feministing has been way neutral for a long time – they just posted about Hillary’s older “when and if racism” remarks today. Ditto with Feministe and Shakesville – a lot of times, the more controversial things are brought up as an open thread, so the blog doesn’t have an official stance.

    Now, I don’t hang on pro-Clinton blogs. I don’t care for the conversations I’ve seen on many of them (Bow to the woman? Fuck that noise) but I also choose not to go there because I am not a supporter. Y’all need your space, just like we need ours. And for the Pro-Clinton supporters who do venture here, most of y’all don’t think in that highly privileged way, so I don’t see much of a problem. I let the comments go, but I do hold back a lot of what I am sent about HRC. I don’t feel the need to trash her endlessly on the blog – just calling out the race comments is enough for me.

    If feminists need to represent WoC by examining racism towards a black man
    (and they do need to examine racism towards WoC) why doesn’t the anti-racist/mainstream left have the same responsibility towards that overlap?

    I can only speak for myself. However, considering all that has gone on in the feminist blogosphere as of late, I think feminists need to be extra on their game w/r/t excusing racism within their ranks. Especially when it comes from their candidates camp. To me, the election is the election – this too shall pass. But it scares me to think that people who want to woo me to their movement, that want to call me an ally, are willing to blatantly give a pass to HRC. If they are willing to excuse that, and excuse the other bloggers from racist acts, why the hell should I trust you to have my back? Does racism only count if it comes from the right? That’s what is eating at me. This election will end, and I am supposed to forget all the wheeling and dealing that was done to show that sexism really is worse than racism? No fucking way!

    My third post on being an ally is late because I am really conflicted about the idea of global sisterhood. Could Racialicious do more to address the sexism Hillary experiences? Yes. We could. But I doubt that I would get a satisfactory response in kind from the mainstream feminist blogs. So why am I fighting to end sexism against “women” when “women” really means “white women?” Why put myself out for someone who will spit in my face?

    I have enough to deal with trying to tackle sexism in communities of color, much less defend a white woman who finds racism useful.

    But then again, I’m not trying to call pro-Hillary peeps over to my side. Nor am I trying to convince white feminists of something they refuse to hear. I have allies who are white. When I write more on hip-hop feminism, I’ll cover that aspect of things. But I am only interested in dealing with people who believe racism is a serious problem in our society. Those are the people I try to pull here.

    White feminists try to pull all women over, and say every woman needs feminism.

    Yes, I agree, we all need feminism – just not the kind that you’re selling. So that is why I hold them to a higher bar. You are asking me to come to your side, yet do things that push me away. It does not compute. I do not understand. If you care about women of color, you have to address racism. Even when it’s from your favorite candidate.

    I really have never been clear on where pro-Clinton WoC fit in at Racialicious. If you don’t feel the need to represent us, that’s fine, I’m going to keep reading here for other reasons, but don’t ask pro-Clinton bloggers to do what you’re not willing to.

    That makes two of us – I don’t know either. I try to be respectful of differing political views, but it honestly puzzles me why women of color still support HRC. If someone wants to write a piece for me, I am happy to post it. However, I extend that offer all the time, and almost no one takes me up on it.

    I also have to say, it would be a lot easier for me to represent the pro-Clinton WoC contingent if someone addressed the race baiting. But it doesn’t happen.

    It was a lot easier for me to write balanced posts before Super Tuesday, back when I still felt neutral about each candidate. It was a lot easier for me to be balanced in my handling of HRC before the SC comments, before Geraldine Ferraro, before the pro-McCain comments and before the hard working white voters comments.

    But not after all that. And I can’t be balanced with discussions of HRCs campaign and character. Only with policy, do I feel like I can argue my points fairly.

    But, no one is arguing policy. So here we are.

    Suggestions that you have would be good to hear. Ideally, I do not want to alienate the pro-HRCers. Trying to make sure that any posts critical of HRC only attack statements made, not assumptions into character, that said posts do not use gendered slurs, and that I clearly note when I am speaking from personal feeling and personal emotion and when I am basing something in facts.

    I am not sure what else I can do.

  29. Lyonside wrote:

    Thanks, Latoya, for honestly assessing your positions. As a long-time frequenter from the MMW days, I had a shorter response: Racialicious is predominantly about the intersection of race and pop culture. Other “isms” intersect and are therefore discussed by posts and comments, but the blog is under no obligation to focus on feminism alone, any more than other causes, especially when, as you said, the assumption from outsiders and feminists alike seems to focus on (white) feminism.

    I think 2 other incidents are coloring (no pun) this as well – and I’m not trying to rehash them here, but I think they’re underlying some of the discussions on blogs re: racism, sexism, politics, and the dark corners where they hide: Brownfemipower’s leaving her blog (and what led up to it), and the Seal Press debacle soon after. Both incidents left many WOCs and allies exhausted and possibly less likely to rally to the aid of what is now perceived as predominantly white feminist causes and complaints.

  30. octogalore wrote:

    Marge – thank you so much for the call-out.

    I am a bit puzzled as well, because I think the big feminist blogs , with the exception of Shakesville, have been as or more critical of Clinton than of Obama.

    Just as I don’t think it’s incumbent upon Latoya to focus heavily on sexism directed at Clinton, I feel no urge to post on racism directed at Obama by the Clinton camp which I feel is distorted. If I felt that it was directly attributable to Clinton, I might feel differently.

    But I don’t in fact feel that’s the case. I think she tacked “white” on to “hard working voters” because she didn’t want to take credit for a demographic – hard working black voters – that was in fact voting hard for Obama. Ferraro wasn’t her mouthpiece, shouldn’t have said what she said, but it was said in the context of gender having been a big advantage for her, and Obama’s camp has admitted it was factually accurate. I don’t believe HRC’s McCain comments were distinguishable in severity from BHO’s Reagan comments.

    Do I think it’s an important issue? Hell yeah. But you know what, Latoya’s comment here echoes my thoughts:

    “Could Racialicious do more to address the sexism Hillary experiences? Yes. We could. But I doubt that I would get a satisfactory response in kind from the mainstream feminist blogs.”

    I see blogs like Feministe and Curvature supporting Obama and revealing this in almost every political post. Even the recent one on Feministe about “sweetie” wound up with the author in apology mode. As one of what appear to be relatively few feminist bloggers supporting the female candidate, and focusing on feminism, it feels right to keep that focus.

    Latoya said: “This election will end, and I am supposed to forget all the wheeling and dealing that was done to show that sexism really is worse than racism? No fucking way!”

    Fair enough, but many feminist bloggers like Shakesville and the pro-Obama blogs, Feministe and Curvature, have made clear they do not feel sexism is worse. I’ve also made this clear. You and I spoke a bit over there about how women are more indoctrinated into sexism than POC into racism, for the most part, but as you pointed out, many racist views are not acknowledged as such. This discussion was about public operation of the “isms” rather than any kind of worse/better analysis.

    “But I am only interested in dealing with people who believe racism is a serious problem in our society. Those are the people I try to pull here. “

    I applaud you for that. It would be counter to the mission of this blog to do otherwise.

  31. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @ Octogalore –

    Yeah, I guess it just depends on what side you’re on. From where I sit, the blogs that are not pro-Obama are generally playing to Hillary or sitting on the fence. I don’t think they’ve been critical of Obama because they aren’t really discussing Obama – Hillary is the main concern. Aside from the Steinem Op-Ed fall out, I can’t think of a time when the major blogs have reflected on race in the campaigns. Same deal here – we talk about HRC in a race context, but not much else.

    I feel no urge to post on racism directed at Obama by the Clinton camp which I feel is distorted.

    Ditto – I feel the sexist claims leveled by HRC supporters (and occasional surrogate) toward Obama are trumped up bs as well. And I am not saying any of the mainstream blogs has to reject and denounce HRC – but acknowledging dissenting opinions? Acknowledging problems with perception? Linking to discussions of racism? All things that can be done. Particularly when your blog tries to cover issues of intersectionality – where is the posted perspective from WoC feminists on all this? Or, as Marge argued, WoC supporters of HRC? Love to see those arguments somewhere. And wouldn’t the most appropriate place be a feminist blog?

    I don’t believe HRC’s McCain comments were distinguishable in severity from BHO’s Reagan comments.

    McCain is currently running for President; Regan is no longer able to. The Regan error (oh snap, slip, I meant era) is past, McCain is possibly the future. HBO did not compare HRC unfavorably to her potential opponent.

    One of the big things with the sweetie comment (which I linked with an eww) is BHO apologized swiftly. The recording of his apology was all over the place when it happened, and he had a similar situation calling someone “brother.” Pet name was still gag inducing, but it should be noted that he had the decency to apologize for the situation.

    Feministe just posted about a Clinton/Obama dream ticket – admittedly, this was before Jill knew about the RFK comments, but even still, wtf? Like I said, on large blogs, it’s like HRC gets a blank slate every week.

    and focusing on feminism, it feels right to keep that focus.

    Yes, keep the focus on feminism. But that doesn’t mean keep the blinders on. I really, truly think that HRC supporters who identify as feminists do not understand why so many black women are pissed off at this election. Did you see Tami’s post on the HuffPo piece? Ridiculous and racist. To many of us, these are all pieces of the same puzzle – the marginalization of WoC issues in feminism, the terms “white” and “women” being equated, HRC getting a pass for playing to racist fears – it is all a huge reminder that feminism is not for black women – we are only women when it is convenient.

    I agree with you that on many occasions, women are indoctrinated into sexism and that has fueled a lot of the HRC-hate. I particularly wince when she is faulted for ambition. Why don’t we just go ahead an start calling her Lady McBeth then, jeez. But again, many of us dealing with the realities of race will see it differently. For example, Obama’s speech is often brought up by some feminists as proof that racism is less acceptable in society and that HRC couldn’t make that same speech about gender.

    The problem with that is that Obama was forced to make that speech. It’s didn’t pop out of no where – it was a strategic response to the Rev. Wright controversy. Hillary could have spun any number of incidents into the corner stone for a speech or op-ed but she chose not to. She chose that. Right now, talking about sexism gains her support, so she does that. If discussions of sexism did not gain her support, she would fall back.

    I applaud you for that. It would be counter to the mission of this blog to do otherwise.

    Well, yeah, but again – we aren’t a racism 101 blog. In order to have the conversations we have here, everyone has to be on the same page. So, I screen out everyone who isn’t interested in learning. Dissenting opinions are fine but we aren’t going to rehash the same basic points over and over.

    However, a lot of mainstream feminist blogs do try to pull in the largest amount of people, not just our tiny audience here. And they need to speak to their audience. That’s all I am really asking for. Race has played a role in this campaign, as has sexism. And if the blogs are concerned about Sean Bell and Prisons, I don’t think it would be too out of bounds to host a discussion of racism in feminism, the HRC campaign and race baiting, or the views and ideas of WoC HRC supporters. After all, it’s still on topic.

  32. Joseph wrote:

    …peering out from under my cool rag to add:

    An apples to apples comparison between racism and sexism in the context of this presidential campaign is faulty at its base. It is of course true that some of the coverage of Clinton has been sexist. But her supporters cannot back up their accusations of sexism with concrete examples emanating directly from Obama or his campaign. The same is not true of Clinton, who has employed racial rhetoric as a matter of course for months. Even if one decides that her use of race has been utterly benign (which, I think, requires a level optimism that I envy) it cannot truthfully be argued that she has not employed it at all. She has. Repeatedly.

    If Obama had suggested that he was the best candidate because the American people are not ready to elect a woman, or compared her presidential campaign to Elizabeth Dole’s, or suggested that her gender was an advantage in her campaign, or mentioned a notorious rape in answering a question about why he remained in the race,…or even called her “Mrs. Clinton” instead of “Senator” during a debate, you can bet we would be talking about it on this blog, whether its official “focus” was race or not.

    But you know, he hasn’t done anything like that. Not even close. Her? Not so much.

    Discussing race in the context of Clinton’s campaign–when she has raised it herself repeatedly as a strategy–is perfectly appropriate not only because race is an important topic in and of itself but because the way someone who wants to be President of the United States deals with race is an important part of who s/he is. However, referencing gender–even obliquely– has not been a significant part of the way Obama has run his race, so it is more than a little bit of a reach to lay the sexism of the press (or of society in general) at his feet.

    I have no quarrel with self-described feminist blogs covering the sexism of the press. It is important and I want to read about it. But refusing to acknowledge that race has been an important part of Clinton’s campaign in favor of a larger discussion of the “public operation” of sexism is completely disingenuous.

    …returns to his bed.

  33. A. wrote:

    Four words.

    Keith Olbermann. Special Comment.

  34. octogalore wrote:

    Latoya – you’re right that perspective is a key issue here. For instance, you run a blog focusing on race for a sophisticated audience and therefore I think it makes sense to focus on that perspective, which would include POC for Obama and for Hillary. And as you also look through the WOC lens, then certainly looking at the WOC perspective for Clinton as well as Obama seems relevant. Although as Obama supporters it would certainly seem fair to focus on your candidate of choice.

    My perspective is a big different because my focus on my tiny blog is on certain issues I think I can speak to intelligently and which I’m passionate about. I consider myself an anti-racist and anti-classist but while I bring these issues into the equation, they are not my focus or areas on which I think I have a lot of great info to bring to the table.

    If I were running or contributing to a large feminist blog, I’d have a different perspective, along the lines of what you say you’d like to see more of. A major blog, like yours or Feministe, has a responsibility to represent its audience. Yours does that, I think. I don’t flatter myself that people feel left out of my blog because it gets a very small audience to begin with and doesn’t pretend to be authoritative on a large topic. (That said, I welcome where people feel that the issues I cover are missing various POVs, because that’s something I definitely do not want to do. I am grateful for your contributions along these lines). Once a blog stakes out a claim to a large topic, it needs to cover that topic and all interested parties to that topic.

    “Particularly when your blog tries to cover issues of intersectionality – where is the posted perspective from WoC feminists on all this? Or, as Marge argued, WoC supporters of HRC? Love to see those arguments somewhere. And wouldn’t the most appropriate place be a feminist blog?”

    Yes. Personally, I think the call to do a better job with intersectionality post the BFP departure and Jungle-gate was pretty loud and clear, and the subsequent stories on Sean Bell and prisons to me weren’t the best job of that. Instead of civics reports without any real ANALYSIS, I’d like to see more articles on big blogs really offering a WOC perspective on feminism and race. I see more of that here.

    I mean, really, stuff like the material discussed in “to be real,” “Naked,” “Colonize This,” “Women, Race and Class,” and less obvious ones like “Infidel.” Instead of links to newspaper articles and a few words along the lines of “look ma, I read important stuff.” Most of us read, or should read, about that stuff. Taking it a step further and actually providing some value – some real intersectional analysis – would be nice.

    I do disagree that posting about a dream ticket was inappropriate for Feministe. It’s a feminist blog. Feminists have the right to disagree with your feelings about HRC – they are not universal.

    Re Tami’s Huff Po piece – I agree wholeheartedly with: “I wonder if Burleigh realizes how ridiculously race biased it is to ask a candidate to weigh in on O.J. Simpson and decry hip hop simply because he is a black man.”

  35. Faithful wrote:

    I don’t really think this post is relevant to this blog. What do the differences between HRC and RFK have to do with the “intersection of race and pop culture?” Also, keep in mind that a majority of Latino/as and Asians support HRC, so I think some attention DOES need to be paid about where pro-Clinton WoC fit in at Racialicious.

  36. jvansteppes wrote:

    lowercase tasha,
    Clinton isn’t mocked for the octave of her voice so much as the fact that what she voices is often ridiculous [bad metaphors at Nascar anyone?] or sounds strained. [I personally think her tone gets worse with time which indicates not that she's a bad orator but that she's just tired]. Obama is also mocked for his tone too on SNL, and what’s more, by an actor in blackface. Also, if she’s willing to say what may not be convenient where is her admission that she was wrong about Iraq? Looking at RFK’s discussion of Vietnam makes this lack of courage all the clearer.

  37. sfsinger wrote:

    Hillary mentioned the primary tying her staying in the primary with RFK and Obama 5 times and she mentioned assassination specifically more than once. I suppose if you are not a Black person or well-versed in Black history you would bypass, negate and diminish her comments. That is no excuse however and you need to get a clue! Hillary has mentioned this on and off since March. Huckabee made the ‘joke’. Then Liz Trotta. When will it get serious for you apologists? Obama had to have Secret Service detail one full year earlier than most primary candidates due to the number of death threats to him and his family. Hillary has access to this information, knew this AND STILL REFERENCED IT! Remember she is supposed to be more experienced. She doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt – she said it to intentionally inflame people. Her campaign is done and her and Bill are crying victim left and right instead of a. taking responsibility b. apologizing to the Obamas. RFK Jr wants Hillary’s Senate seat and I could give two **its about HIS opinion. HE was NOT the person being threatened! Of course there’s no white feminist or many ‘progressive’ blogs outraged or calling Hillary out on her behavior. It is the ultimate of steadfast support for their candidate and the last vestige of their racism and white privilege. Hillary and the corporate media have managed to fashion herself into a victim and used her whiteness as a blunt object against a Black man and Black people. Notice Ferraro’s egregious statement that Black writers and her naming of Bob Herbert specifically as not being sensitive to or writing about sexism- which was not true in fact. The argument of sexism being more prevalent than racism is the ultimate insult as it negates Black women from the entire conversation. It is Black women who are the legitimate authorities on sexism and racism! It is something we have to deal with regularly – from all men and white women. HRC had the name, her pheno type and when convenient her gender with an entire machine behind her and a slew of super delegates. She was expecting a coronation. Too many women have projected their struggles and hardships and ‘victimhood’ onto Hillary as if she was one of them. This is a woman who is married to a former President, worth more than $100M and who has protection services, limos, private planes you name it. What part of the day to day struggle does she understand? I do accept there were some sexist things said like the guys that held the “Iron My Shirt” sign. But those were 2 white men that did it! Where is the public discourse of the sexism of white men? When Bill talked about HIllary being disrespected where in that comment did he admit to his own behavior and disrespectful behavior of his wife with his MANY extra-marital relationships? Why do these so-called feminists not mention that? People are rightfully tired of dynasties since we’re under the impression that we live in a DEMOCRACY. Obama simply planned a better campaign. Clinton had no plan in place for speaking to Black women specifically – for when the ‘Black vote’ is being discussed it should really be clarified it is the women who are heading the households and have the buying power. Hearing Hillary mention the reason for her remaining in a primary that she has NO CHANCE of securing by stating she waiting for “SOMETHING” to happen to her rival is NOT something that we will take lightly. And I have one other question: where was the feminist outpouring of outrage at the TN GOP attack ad against Michelle Obama? She’s a woman, too. Or is it that she’s not the ‘right’ woman?

  38. Bob Simpson wrote:

    The remark that Senator Clinton made about Bobby Kennedy is only the latest in a series of
    “gaffes” that underscore the desperation of the Clintons as they see the nomination slipping away.

    Hillary is reinventing her earlier incarnation as a GOP Goldwater devotee and Bill is revving up his Southern fried good ole boy racist act.

    Her political campaign adopted the vicious Southern Strategy pioneered by George Wallace and honed to perfection by the Republican Party.

    Does she have any idea what kind of racial hornet’s nest she is dragging us into? Doesn’t she understand this nation’s long history of killing those who challenge our Caste System of Color?

    We need to build a multi-racial progressive working class movement, the kind of movement that Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy came to symbolize.

    That’s one of the most difficult and dangerous things to do in American politics. It threatens the whole basis of racial and gender privilege in this country and it’s a direct challenge to the stranglehold that corporate power has over this nation.

    Both candidates fall short of what is needed to help build that movement, shying away from directly confronting the painful intersection of race, class and gender that is tearing this country apart.

    Barack Obama should have been out there EVERYDAY telling people,” If you are voting for me because you don’t want a woman in the White House, than stay home because I don’t want your vote.” He should have taken a much stronger stand against the sexist attacks directed at Clinton.

    Hillary Clinton should have been out there EVERYDAY telling people,” If you are voting for me because you don’t want a Black man in the White House, than stay home because I don’t want your vote.” She should have taken a much stronger stand against the racist attacks directed against Obama. Of course when you are the source of some of those racist attacks, that does make it harder.

    Both candidates should have been talking directly to working class people about the importance of bridging the racial divide because without that, any progressive movement for change is doomed.

    But at least Barack Obama did not launch a smirking sexist attack on Hillary Clinton. And at least Barack Obama did not make a coldblooded statement that suggested how political assassination might benefit a particular candidate.

    Clinton has no excuses here. She was a grown woman in 1968 when the future of America was shattered by gunfire sending us into the dark ages of vicious rightwing Republican rule.

    By himself Barack Obama cannot lead us into the promised land. He needs a nationwide militant citizens movement to even attempt it. But at least he is not dragging us back into the desert of racial hate.

  39. jvansteppes wrote:

    O: “I don’t think it’s incumbent upon Latoya to focus heavily on sexism directed at Clinton, I feel no urge to post on racism directed at Obama by the Clinton camp.”
    The problem with feminist blogs not mentioning the race issue is that Hillary Clinton IS an alleged feminist who supports racist statements made in her name whereas the sexism directed at Hillary’s campaign isn’t coming from Obama or his supporters. Like it or not, we feminists are all accountable to call fellow feminists out on shitty behavior.

    O: “supporting the female candidate, and focusing on feminism”
    Wait, is that to imply that supporting the female candiate = focusing on feminism? Because her being a female candidate does not make her a good feminist.

    LP: “There is the expectation that defending Hillary Clinton means denying all claims of racism against her”
    Whose expectation? I think there are a good number of people out there [though I don't know blogs all that well], who are perfectly willing to critique Clinton’s racism without diminishing the amount of sexism leveled at her. You haven’t swept the sexism under the rug and I’m only one person, but I think this blog does a very careful job of taking on Clinton’s offensive behavior without pretending that misogyny isn’t a factor. Maybe that misogyny would get more attention here if it actually came from Obama…

  40. Shauna wrote:

    For your comment at the end: http://feministing.com/archives/009263.html

    Also, don’t you think its a bit problematic to expect white feminists to speak out about Hillary Clinton’s race-baiting? Isn’t that similar to saying that white women must defend against all other things that white women do? Which is similar to that horrible article saying that Obama has to say that he doesn’t support O.J. or some hip-hop lyrics, implying that he has to speak out against everything that black males do that he disagrees with?

  41. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @ Octogalore – Good comments. To clarify on Feministe, I do not think they were wrong to want a ticket that supports their candidate. I just think it was really strange, that late in the game, after all the allegations of race baiting that they would muse about an O/C dream ticket without realizing why that would be problematic, particularly considering the polarization. Kind of like the disconnect when they promoted Marcotte’s book in the middle of the controversy. Jill has a full right to support her friend – but not to mention anything? Kind of weird.

    Looks like we’re in agreement with everything else. At this point, I am unable to write fairly about HRC from any other standpoint than policy. If a WoC wants to write about her and address the race baiting, Ill post it. If a white feminist wants to write about her and discuss the race baiting, I’ll post it. But I need someone to engage.

    @Shauna –

    Here’s the difference: We are discussing what Hillary has actually done. That article sought to tie Barack Obama to OJ Simpson. Now, if we were supporting both Barack and OJ for President and VP, you would have a point.

    But we aren’t. If feminists are supporting HRC, and HRC is running for “all women” someone needs to acknowledge that all women are not white and race baiting is not cool. End of story.

    @Faithful – Our blog covers a whole lot out of bounds, but I only hear complaints on political posts, not favorable to one’s candidate. Wonder why that is?

    And as I said before, if one of you wants to write something, I’ll post it, but I have yet to see a piece hit my inbox. And please note, you must address race baiting. And if feminist want to bring more WoC to their cause, and wonder why WoC say feminism isn’t for them, it’s because they are willing to excuse racism in their ranks/support a presidential candidate who finds racism useful.

    jvansteppes – I meant that more in the way I have observed. I should be more clear. And like I said, I keep pointing to people like Cara (and the off our pedestals blog and the oh you pretty things blog) who have been able to balance the two. But I do see a lot of feminists (and WoC HRC supporters) who will not touch the race baiting with a ten foot pole. Sexism will be discussed forever but not race baiting. Do they refute all 42 items on the J & J checklist, the white voters comment, and the Obama can’t win (white people) comments before it? If after all that, you still think she’s the better candidate, fine. I just want to know why these things are ignored as if they aren’t happening.

    And yes, I do try, but I’m an Obama supporter, and therefore, must be an evil Obamabot with no brain and no concept of policy, screaming “hope” and “change” without bothering to have formed any kind of opinion on how things should get done.

    @Joseph – Cosign.

    @

  42. lowercase tasha wrote:

    @jvan

    She’s not a bad orator, or haven’t you noticed that she always sounds more polished than Obama does during the debates. Obama’s is very much a phenomenon, yet despite all the uh’s and um’s when he’s not reading from a teleprompter, his oratory style is considered to be dynamic, and the fact that we would all have to sit here and really think hard to come up with an American woman that’s considered a “dynamic speaker” should tell you that the lack of American women on the list isn’t just a coincidence. Think about all the criticism lobbed at Katie Couric at CBS desk. Even when Elizabeth Vargas (who projects a completely different vibe than Couric) was anchoring the ABC evening news, ABC would come in the ratings last behind Brian Williams and Bob Schieffer. Also, a coincidence, I assume?

    @Manju

    Sexism/gender relations are often different in Europe and in countries abroad, but that goes without saying, doesn’t it? Unlike in the UK where a Mary Robinson or a Margaret Thatcher were President and Prime Minister last century, the US still has yet to reach that benchmark.

  43. octogalore wrote:

    @jvan: come on, really? That attempt to twist my words is making me headdesk and I usually don’t get there until much later in the day.

    I said: “As one of what appear to be relatively few feminist bloggers supporting the female candidate, and focusing on feminism, it feels right to keep that focus.”

    You then tossed out: “Wait, is that to imply that supporting the female candiate = focusing on feminism?”

    I’m also one of relatively few feminist bloggers with a female-capitalist approach and a sex work background, which also inspire me to keep the focus on feminism. Do you think I’m trying to state that one needs to be a capitalist or former sex worker to focus on feminism? ‘Cause that’s not what I’m saying.

    For me, because of my support for Clinton as well as my feminist emphasis on my blog, I tend to focus more on the feminist lens in looking at the election. That does not mean that I feel folks who do not support Clinton are not feminists. Just that in my particular case, this gears my interest and focus.

    Hopefully at this point, you are now quite clear on my meaning here.

  44. marge twain wrote:

    @octogalore: [mutual headdesk] haven’t you heard of the famous strawfeminist? She pops up here at Racialicious every so often. She’s white and a racism denier and dammit if she isn’t always haranguing women of color to only support the female candidate or else she’ll kick them out of the club.

  45. marge twain wrote:

    It’s an article of faith for many people here that Clinton was referring to some hope for Obama’s death. It’s likely that RFK’s assassination and where she was when she found out had a major impact on her. I think she was in college at the time. She’s of that age to have that reference point. And if she had anyone’s future death in mind it was likely her own. You won’t have read about it here but she’s had her share of death threats herself. She’s also had to deal with worse than Huckabee’s bad joke from members of the media who have actively hoped for her death or called for her death. There is no Slate Obama Deathwatch(The Hillary Deathwatch has been up since Feb.) Keith Olberman described a scenario with relish in which she’s killed by a superdelegate.
    Here’s one more example:
    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/05/she-must-be-destroyed.html
    The Hillary sexism watch has many more examples of calls for Clinton’s death and violent imagery. This is the latest, the 103rd:
    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/05/hillary-sexism-watch-103.html

    I’m tired of Obama supporters chaiming he has not participated in sexism. He and his supporters have, and he has been tellingly silent on the media witchhunt from which he has benefitted. Here is one example of many:
    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/02/periodically-speaking.html

  46. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Marge –

    *sidelong glance*

    You know, I have met a couple “strawfems” IRL, and I’m sure if I decided to sift through some online places I don’t like to go, I could pull a few real walking talking examples. Just like I’m sure you could casually pluck a few foaming at the mouth Misogynists-for-Obama after a bit of looking. The point – I hope, anyway – is that these folks are not a majority but are still obnoxious nonetheless.

    That’s not Octo though.

    And re-reading jvan’s comment, I see what she’s getting at. I think (not to assume J) that she’s heard that justification bandied about quite a bit, and wanted to make sure that isn’t where you stood.

    Octo – A feminist capitalist? Damn you’re in for a hard road. And a former sex worker? I’m surprised you aren’t labeled a tool of the patriarchy like Ren is.

  47. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Marge –

    All around, good finds. This is what I have been asking for all along. It’s something I can do something with.

    Now, any reason on why Slate named the clock “the Death Watch?” as opposed to “The End of HRCs Campaign” or “The End of the Flick” or (as in the style of the bloggers I know) simply posting a “Countdown to Obama” clock?

    I will quibble with this:

    “periodically when she’s feeling down.” Yeah, I can see this as a sexist statement, but not for the reason you are arguing. Periodically is a fairly chill word. It’s not even as loaded as the term “niggardly” – which has appeared in the news a few times over the last few years out of the mouths of politicos and DC Gov workers.

    “Once a month or so” I could see.

    I can’t think of multiple women who have had “periodically” assigned before them, as I can with black politicians/celebs/writers and the word “articulate.”

    The statement does try to play into the idea that HRC is a weaker, emotional woman. That “Poor Hillary” trope – let’s all feel sorry for her while she pouts. But periodically, the word? Nah not really.

    Solid three out of four though.

  48. octogalore wrote:

    “Octo – A feminist capitalist? Damn you’re in for a hard road. And a former sex worker? I’m surprised you aren’t labeled a tool of the patriarchy like Ren is.”

    Oh, but I am! Labeled a TOTP that is. Even though I’m now selling lawyers and not T&A.

    Capitalist is more operational than aspirational. I don’t wave around a flag for capitalism, but certainly do for women attaining equal economic power. And the current mechanism for doing that it… guess.

  49. marge twain wrote:

    @Latoya: you asked for an example of a WoC blogger for Clinton? The Apostate is a good one. She has written on her reasons for preferring Clinton and opposing Obama.
    Also one doesn’t need to go looking for “foaming at the mouth Misogynists-for-Obama” one need only scroll up to find folks who say that the sexism isn’t there or maybe it’s there a little bit but it doesn’t matter or folks saying downright sexist things about her.
    I don’t know if what I was saying earlier was clear to some people (not to say you, Latoya)–that I don’t think Racialicious needs to post on, or link to evidence of sexism against Clinton. Especially in light of your explanation above as to why you can’t write fairly about Clinton, I would expect you to not expect differently from some others, considering that the biggest feminist blogs are writing about racism towards Obama.
    You seem to write about feminism as being mostly by white women for white women and when you’re talking about WoC within (or rejecting) feminism, you’re talking about black women. I appreciate that you’re writing what has been your experience, but, as a South Asian, I’ve always felt like this view left me out. My WoC experience has been that I have to deal with all of the issues relevant to mainstream feminism plus more issues relevant to my race. I can’t think of one thing that is a white women’s issue that has no relevance in my life.

  50. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Marge – Thanks for the tip. I am familiar with her work, but there are some things that she writes about that are inconsistent with our goals for the site. I’ll have to think on that one.

    No, I can’t write fairly and I acknowledge that. I have also opened the floor to anyone who is game. And again, I haven’t asked the blogs to reject HRC, but to mention and really discuss the issue.

    When I write about feminism, I am talking about women of color. If I meant black women, I would say black women. But I don’t. I mean black, latina, asian, and south asian women. I haven’t said feminism is irrelevant or a white women’s issue, but feminism is quite white washed.

    If feminism suits you and suits your needs, wonderful. But for me – and many of the other women who have commented on post after post about feminism – our needs are not met. The things we want from feminism we can’t get. So there is a problem.

    The question is not “which of these things are white issues and which of these things are not.” The issue is that feminism claims to represent all women. And women’s issues overlap but have some huge differences. For example, check out the thread on Feministing about Catcalling (basically, the post we did over Memorial day, with Jessica’s commentary.) I’m knee-deep in the threads over there, dealing with bullshit. Now I am on the same side as the other commenters and Jessica – street harassment is not harmless or a compliment. But we are coming from different places and a few women on that thread have admitted as such. A discussion of sexism without critical race analysis doesn’t do me much good because what I experience is different. What most of the people I know experience manifests differently from the narrative in mainstream feminism.

    So, a focus on certain issues to the detriment of others doesn’t help me and doesn’t help the people I’m still trying to reach. I’ve publicly grappled with my feelings on this site and have embraced the mantle of hip-hop feminist as a result of that issue. But you must understand Marge, that the vast majority of women and girls I meet are not interested in feminism. They don’t think it’s for us. They understand the concepts but not the emphasis or application. If feminism really is for everyone, why aren’t these girls and women a priority?

    Let me put this in another context. I can only really write from my experience right? I’m black. And I have a lot of Asian friends. But to focus on those issues, and to make try to make them the universal racial struggle would be disingenuous. I want this to be a space for PoC to come together. To talk and to challenge each other – because often, people come here with their own biases that go unchecked elsewhere. And in order to do that, to reach the people I want to reach, I have to constantly go out of my comfort zone. I have to listen when people say “hey, my people aren’t being represented here” and try to incorporate different viewpoints. I have to go out of my way to track down writers that can write knowledgeably about things I do not know. I just had to beg a friend of mine for a favor because all the writers I contacted who identified as PoC and GLBT didn’t submit any pieces for the interracial dating series. So what am I supposed to do, not cover something that people asked for? I have to find a way to get it done. And I have to keep going and keep finding content that keeps people here and keeps people engaged.

    There are still a lot of gaps in coverage, even despite my best efforts. I am missing a consistent GBLTQ perspective, our site is ableist, we don’t cover latino/south asian/native american/global race issues as much as we should.

    But every day we try.

    And every day it gets better.

    And everyday I get new tips, new links, new people offering to help with our effort.

    And everyday, I see our community grow, despite the differing opinions and multiple viewpoints.

    So I think it’s working.

    And I don’t think it’s a problem for me to ask the same of the online representatives for feminism. To go, and dig deeper and work on getting these issues out there. If we say we are going to be inclusive, I feel like we have to mean it. Everything isn’t going to be perfect right away. But I see a whole lot of room for improvement.

  51. rikyrah wrote:

    I have been helping to maintain a ClintonAttacksObama Wiki that has an Incident Page up to 47. 47!, and we’ve been lax.

    Incidents of RACEBAITING towards Barack Obama.

    This imagined sexism that folks are shoveling to try and further paint Hillary Clinton as some sort of victim is ridiculous.

    SHE has played the victim DECK since the beginning of this campaign. She has wrapped herself in the ‘ Poor White Woman as Victim’ Cloak, all the while shuffling every card in the racebaiting deck AGAINST OBAMA that she, and her surrogates could find.

    There can be no ‘misinterpretation’ of what she said in South Dakota. I’m from America. Born and raised. English is my primary language. I’m tired of folks telling me, over and over, with regards to the Clinton campaign, how ENGLISH has been ‘ misspoken’, ‘misunderstood’, ‘misinterpreted’. Check out the Wiki, you’d be surprised how many of these incidents have that as an ‘explanation’.

    She’s not dumb. She knows damn well that, from the very beginning of this campaign, there were two fears about Barack Obama’s campaign in the Black community:
    1. White people wouldn’t vote for him.
    2. They feared for his very LIFE.

    Nobody, and I mean NOBODY can claim ignorance to either one.

    The fact that she has repeated this disgusting line more than once, tells me she knows EXACTLY what she’s saying.

    And, after all the racebaiting, she hasn’t earned the ‘ benefit of the doubt’.

    Period.

    Check out the wiki

    http://clintonattacksobama.pbwiki.com/Incident+Tracker

  52. Josh wrote:

    Everything else aside, the claim that Clinton leads the popular vote is utter and complete nonsense. Obama leads the popular vote by any reasonable measure. The only way Clinton leads is if you count Florida (which Clinton herself said didn’t and shouldn’t count until it was clear she need it) and Michigan (where Obama and Edwards weren’t even on the ballot) – but don’t count estimated vote totals from several caucus states that only release vote results in percentages, not raw vote totals. Saying Clinton leads the popular vote is totally dishonest any anyone who does so is either ignorant or full of it.

  53. octogalore wrote:

    rikyrah, most of the statements in the wiki are not from Clinton and/or are embellished. Bill saying his wife would be the one he’d pick in an emergency, after mentioning Mandela as an example of the impressive company he was picking from? I’d be insulted if my husband didn’t pick me over anyone if I were in HRC’s shoes. I wouldn’t see that as racist, just loyal. If he had mentioned a white guy as the kind of impressive example he was choosing from, that would’ve been criticized too.

    Many of your examples are pure politics w/o a racial element. Obama’s made similar statements and gestures (like his simulation of shaking Clinton of like a bug).

  54. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @Octo –

    Is that what people are interpreting that as? Obama brushed his shoulders off. It’s a hip-hop thing. It has nothing to do with bugs. You never heard the phrase “brush your shoulders off?” “Shaking the haters off?”

    *honestly puzzled*

    Where did you get the bug thing from?

  55. octogalore wrote:

    It may have cultural implications that I’m too old or unhip to know about (although I did read the description here). But I still wasn’t comfortable with it.

    The “bug” thing is mine. To me, a gesture suggesting someone’s a hater is about the same thing as suggesting they’re a bug. The gist is that their statements aren’t worthy of a direct response.

    Not a fan.

  56. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @ Octo –

    Aaaaah. That makes so much more sense. And it explains the middle finger fracas thing – they (folks in the link) thought that was coded hip-hop language too. Ha!

    Well, as a person who identifies with the hip-hop generation and has (1) has her shoulders brushed off, (2) has brushed others shoulders off and (3) reminds herself to shake the haters off at work on a weekly basis, it is not the same as suggesting someone is a bug or beneath you. And it can mean different things, but think of it as the equivalent of a snarky “Moving on!”

    But it’s cool, you don’t have to be a fan. I’m personally thrilled. I’ll give you some of my enthusiasm.

    It also makes me feel like we are one step closer to a president running on the “STFU!” platform, as described in Christopher Buckley’s Boomsday.

  57. octogalore wrote:

    I hope you have more success shaking off haters at work than I’ve had. My current solution — I am the only one in my company from my city, so I work from home. I get along with them quite well sporadically/electronically.

    I love Buckley but missed Boomsday. Will have to check that out.

    I guess how one feels about a person gears ones reaction to her being treated snarkily. So — probably one where we can respectfully agree to disagree.

  58. marge twain wrote:

    @Latoya:I think we are in agreement that feminism(in the U.S., not in other countries like India)needs to be more inclusive of the particular issues of WoC. I do not, however, think analyses of racism towards black men like BO or Sean Bell is relevant to what I want from feminism. You have written well on this topic before, but we may remain in disagreement on this one thing.

    That many women don’t call themselves feminists when they do believe in their own equality, I know can be about feeling excluded from a white-dominated culture/ unexamined privilege of white feminists. I have only become aware of this through Racialicious and I really appreciate you opening my eyes to this. More often, in my life, though, I find that WoC reject feminism for the same reason white women do: because the antifeminist mainstream has done it’s job to make it look frightening. When women have reasons like “because I love my husband and kids” that’s what I’m talking about.

    I’m sorry for incorrectly ascribing another idea to you: That white feminists only help themselves and that white women are the arbiters of feminism and WoC aren’t the ones shaping it. It’s a sentiment I have read numerous times here from other folks, pretty much anytime there’s a post about feminism. That idea erases me from the picture, when I have as much of a stake in feminism as any white woman, maybe more because I come from a super-oppressive culture. I have issues with anyone who is anti-racist or otherwise progressive who doesn’t identify as feminist/womanist because to me, respecting women’s humanity should be intrinsic to progressive goals. Not your fault, though.

    The dismissive way BO has treated HRC and many other women on the campaign trail is something that I can’t help but identify with. The whole “HRC is not RFK” piece seems to have been written just to mock her(even though she didn’t say she was like him) and without an understanding that she is judged by different standards than anyone else. BO has a leg up on being seen as capable, strong, having good judgement. These are presidential(male) qualities and things that make a woman unlikable or a bitch. That’s part of the context for this campaign.

    I hear you on getting out of your comfort zone and the balancing act of creating a space for a wildly heterogenous group of people under one banner. And I think you do a great job of listening and fostering dialogue, even when you’re angry.

    So I think it’s working, too.

  59. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @ Marge -

    Whoo! That one didn’t go to spam! I don’t understand this filter at all…

    Re: Race analysis of BHO – I think it’s necessary because HRC has directly benefitted and race baited. That’s the only reason why. If it was the media pushing a lot of these racist ideas about Obama I wouldn’t expect feminists to cover that. That would go under general racism. But when it’s specifically about the actions and behaviors of campaign to campaign (yes, we disagree, I know) I feel like it’s disingenuous not cover it. After all, we’ve seen this kind of behavior before, since the time of the suffragettes. So, in my eyes, it’s ridiculous not to cover it. For the Sean Bell thing, I believe I had articulated this to someone off line -it needs a better hook. I can write about whatever here and it works…as long as I can tie it back to race in some way. So I think that’s where some disconnect was.

    Re: WoC rejection of feminism – oh yeah, I notice that dynamic too. I remember trying to convince someone why being “a video vixen” probably wasn’t the best long term career path – shit was not working and the concept of an entry and exit plan was not gelling. But women my age and older – generally they are familiar, they fucked with feminism for a while, and realized that it was yet another place where they were marginalized. And again, it’s more infuriating because it’s a space where you expected to feel safe and suddenly you just aren’t.

    Re: Rejection of feminism – yeah, I understand. I was on another blog and their subject for today is how much black men hate feminism because it ruined everything. *sigh* But, like I said, I understand how we get to that point. Even with the cool, progressive guys I know, who are all about women’s rights can’t fucking STAND the term feminism. It has become synonymous with one kind of woman – and again, a lot of the women we know don’t identify that way. We just get the same goals done the in a different way.

    Re: HRC is not RFK – yeah, that was a pissed off post for me. I did not say HRC made that comparison herself – her supporters make it for her. And I do think she was referring to time and circumstances. But that shit was ridiculously short sighted and I laid out the reasons why above. It’s not the same thing. We aren’t in the same kind of place (though if this was 2004, Bush Incumbent, they may have had a point).

    HRC is penalized for these things. I do not disagree. And I agree male privilege does work in Obama’s favor. But I disagree with the women on the campaign trail thing – but I guess we can have that discussion when I run Tami’s piece.

    And yeah, like I said, we can only hope that we can all get together and work toward one goal. Diversity (of thought, people) always makes things messy. But in the best, coolest way possible. I’m sure we’ll work things out.

  60. heather's damage wrote:

    This seems like just another instance mainstream media is using the mass public misinformation about history to twist the present.

    If folks don’t know shit about RFK, how would they know HRC isn’t like him?

    Thank you though, I learned something here, and that picture is fantastic.