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1. Daughter of the Ring of Fire » Blog Archive » Three Awful Things that Don’t Surprise Me on 17 Jun 2008 at 7:16 am

   […] could have been me, though my whiteness reduces the odds somewhat. I’ve experienced men closing in on my space […]

Comments

1. G.D. wrote:

   If lynchings served the purpose of reinforcing the more banal, quotidian evils of Jim Crow through fear, then I can’t help but think that incidents like this toward women — hate crimes, really —- don’t serve to reinforce the everyday malevolence of sexism like catcalling.

   Maybe the impunity that generally follows misogynistic catcalling finds its logical end result in these more heinous incidents. Or maybe that’s backward. Or maybe it’s both.

   Posted 25 May 2008 at 2:52 pm ¶

2. G.D. wrote:

   I guess rape and sexual assault are ‘everyday’ too. Apologies for my clumsy phrasing. :-/

   Posted 25 May 2008 at 2:52 pm ¶

3. thordora wrote:

   And yet people I know find it weird that I will not engage when anyone yells honks or otherwise look for my attention while they’re driving and I’m walking. Scary, sickening…..

   Posted 25 May 2008 at 3:23 pm ¶

4. RainaWeather wrote:

   Thanks for this post. I think part of this problem is that many times other men don’t step in to help young women who are being harassed. Countless times I’ve been on one of my daily hour long bus rides only to have to fight off the advances of some young man the entire time while none of the men come to my defense. I don’t know what’s wrong with these men (young and sometimes old). They think they can have ANY woman, even when i tell a guy I’m a lesbian he still wants my number. They really don’t know how to deal with rejection.

   Posted 25 May 2008 at 3:44 pm ¶

5. Karl wrote:

   WTF…:(

   For the women on the board, do you have a defense playbook/planbook for matters of this sort? Before I hit 10, despite not being from this country, my family hipped me to interactions with the police et al, and I would like to do the same for my younger sister (who I am pretty much raising at this point) in relation to the ridiculousness above…should I tell her to give a fake number out in cases where some a*$hole is going too far so as to cut it off? How do I broach the subject without instilling the same sort of mortal fear that the friends of the shot girl (and a good chunk of women) face? vis a vis the police, i was raised defiantly and they were clearly situated as “the enemy”, and in no way shape or form here to help me in any way. Very effective in my case, but obviously problematic (or maybe not) with regards to a girl and a group of people she will have to be exposed to/interact with on a regular basis…. ideas/suggestions?

   Posted 25 May 2008 at 4:35 pm ¶

6. Sara Anderson wrote:

   Now, young Black women have to choose between some bug-a-boo calling their cell phone or risk getting shot.

   I know it’s hard not to think of these sensational acts when we’re in a situation that has the potential to lead to them, but they are exceedingly rare. It’s not like the news of this incident is going to drive every catcaller to attempted murder - the stakes were changed the moment Beaubrun was thrust into this situation. Her attackers didn’t invent random violence against women, and I’m sure they won’t be the last perpetrators, but I doubt that there will be many who follow in their footsteps (compared to guys who simply walk off in a huff when they get shot down). You never know when you’ve run into the exceptional psycho, but you do know in the back of your mind that it does happen. So it’s understandable that catcalling makes women uncomfortable and fearful.

   Posted 25 May 2008 at 5:05 pm ¶

7. Sara Anderson wrote:

   I don’t mean to say that these incidents are completely isolated - well, I think I did at first, but now that I think more about it, it’s important to remember that the catcallers not toting guns can take advantage of the fear that the exceptional psychos create.

   Posted 25 May 2008 at 5:22 pm ¶

8. harlemjd wrote:

   and men think that women give out fake phone numbers because we’re bitches.

   Posted 25 May 2008 at 6:50 pm ¶

9. whatever15 wrote:

   I was in a car with my sister and our girlfriends and when a car full of guys saw that it was a car full of girls a drag race ensued. We had to stop somewhere( windows up) to tell them that we weren’t interested because it was getting really dangerous. One of the most scariest moments of my life!!

   Posted 25 May 2008 at 7:56 pm ¶

10. Symphony wrote:

    To Sarah: It doesn’t have to be gun violence for it to be equally devastating. I still remember the time I was disrespected after respectfully telling someone I wasn’t interested. And it played in my head sharply for a long time after when I was 16.

    I’m not willing to accept that its rare. Its not about this specific act, its the mentality of the man when it comes to women; and that mentality isn’t rare.

    Posted 25 May 2008 at 8:25 pm ¶

11. Dr. Dee wrote:

    Anytime a man I don’t know asks for my number and I’m not interested, I tell him I have a boyfriend or husband, which also happens to be true. When I was single, I would say the same thing without batting an eyelash. I even had a fake engagement ring I could slip on if I was approached by a man I didn’t want to speak to. I would even say, “My old man won’t appreciate my talking to you” and walk away. Many women are socialized to be tactful, polite, and honest. We’ve also been socialized to believe ignoring a man who wants our attention is rude. As women, we need to recognize when “being nice” isn’t practical. It’s fine to tell a strange man you don’t want to talk to that you either don’t have a cell phone or are involved in a serious relationship–with a police officer. If the man doesn’t accept that for an answer, then it’s also OK to simply turn around and walk or drive away, without further conversation. If the stranger follows, head for the nearest police station or anywhere there are people. Unfortunately, the men who followed these women, tried to run them off the road, and then shot at them were more than likely looking for an excuse to hurt someone. There is just no way anyone can predict how other people will react to rejection. I think these women should have dialed 911 the minute those men started following them.

    Posted 25 May 2008 at 9:57 pm ¶

12. Kaonashi wrote:

    What the hell—did they catch the animals who DID this?

    What I would really like to know is how these men were raised. The odds are great is that they were taught that this sort of behavior towards women is “okay” and it’s really not. I still remember being 16, walking down a street minding my own business when some guy thought that an appropriate conversation breaker with a girl was running up to her and grabbing her ass. He was quite surprised when I got upset and couldn’t apologize enough, saying that’s just what they did “where he was from.” I asked him how would he feel if someone did that to one of his sisters or his mother. He got the point then.

    This is another reason why I hate the term “female” so much. Whatever happened to “Miss Lady?”

    Posted 25 May 2008 at 9:59 pm ¶

13. llchavez wrote:

    This is a very extreme case. I am very disturbed by Essential Presence’s post, which essentially is presented here to demonize all men, and specially all men of color, because of the behavior of a small group of violent men who were already armed and probably looking for trouble in the first place. To equate random street cat-calling with violent homicide is way more than a stretch, it’s placing routine and essentially problematic communications between the sexes in a very violent and destructive way. Do you guys really think that men cat-calling women in the street is tantamount to rape or murder? You’re giving the men too much power over you by saying that you are not expected to say anything back and that they “have the right” to say anything they want to you. Who cares what they say or think? It’s just a stranger walking down the street anyway, you have no relationship with this person. I know that random men on the street have said things to me over the years, but I’ve always ignored them, why give them a second thought? I think you are operating from the belief that these random strangers hanging out in the street have all this power over you or something as if what they say matters. It really doesn’t. The people who hang out in the street and spend their time cat-calling women are exactly the kind of people who don’t deserve a second thought.

    Mod Note - Ilchavez, your comment comes from a place of privilege. Seriously, you need to check that. Go back and read my original post on catcalling. One thing I notice in these kinds of conversations is that men (and women who have not experienced this) tend to only normalize what they do and what they have experienced. So, if no one has ever grabbed you and tried to restrain you after you opted to ignore them, if no one has ever followed you in their car and threatened you with violence, if no man has ever waited for you outside of a store after you did not acknowledge his advances toward you, you cannot understand why this fear is so prevalent. This threat of violence is constant, and it always starts with a simple catcall. It’s not about worrying about what someone says or thinks - it is about the entitlement that leads them to say and think those things in the first place and the entitlement that then spurs action. Normally this action is not taken to the level as it is in the case above, but I have personally been in situations where it has gotten close to that.

    Posted 25 May 2008 at 10:05 pm ¶

14. TheFeministTexican wrote:

    That’s pretty scary.

    I just yelled at a carload of guys today, actually. I was bent over trying to fix my car when they yelled out “nice ass,” and my first instinct was to yell back and throw them the finger (which I proceeded to do). Then the thought crossed my mind that they knew where I lived and what my car looked like. Not cool. :/

    Karl, I either give a wrong number or use the “I have a boyfriend” defense.

    Posted 25 May 2008 at 10:21 pm ¶

15. Kaonashi wrote:

    llchavez:

    There is not a woman alive who enjoys being catcalled by strangers on the street; in fact the opinion that they have of men who do this is quite the opposite.

    Also: I googled this to see if there were any updates and the “usual suspects” are ALL OVER IT. Ugh.

    Posted 25 May 2008 at 10:28 pm ¶

16. Nicole wrote:

    This is a sad situation. It happened here in Birimingham, Alabama about seven years ago. A young girl named April was at Senior Day at one of the local parks. Two twenty year old guys came by and started making advances toward April. One guy asked her for her phone number and she said no. He shot her and she died in the park. What was suppose to be a happy day before graduation turned into a media frenzy here. I will always remember her named because I could not and cannot believe I live in an age were it could be dangerous to say no.

    Posted 25 May 2008 at 10:47 pm ¶

17. Renee wrote:

    Even when cat calling does not lead directly to violence it is important to acknowledge that it is about demeaning women by reducing them to sexual objects. That alone can lead rightfully to fear. I have yet to meet a woman who did not have to negotiate this kind of behavior from men.

    Posted 25 May 2008 at 11:03 pm ¶

18. marge twain wrote:

    @GD:
    “If lynchings served the purpose of reinforcing the more banal, quotidian evils of Jim Crow through fear, then I can’t help but think that incidents like this toward women — hate crimes, really —- don’t serve to reinforce the everyday malevolence of sexism like catcalling.
    Maybe the impunity that generally follows misogynistic catcalling finds its logical end result in these more heinous incidents. Or maybe that’s backward. Or maybe it’s both.”

    Wow, that’s an excellent analysis, GD

    @llchavez, I cannot BELIEVE you are, as you claim to be, a woman who has been catcalled before. Male privilege makes men of whatever color feel entitled to get in my space, demand my attention/information and force me to be vigilant, assessing what the danger may be and how I should react just because I went out in public.
    Latoya and Essential Presence point out that street harrassment and sexual violence disproportionately affect black women and offer some data to back it up. Noone here has impugned all men of color. It’s completely disingenuous for you to twist it around like that.

    @Karl:People talk about invoking a husband or boyfriend to ward off attention. Sometimes this works for me, if they know I’m not unclaimed property, they’ll back off, but sometimes not. I also find myself turning the stone on my wedding ring inside…don’t want to look like I have something to rob. Smiling is sometimes seen as an invitation, as is responding with a polite word. Ignoring the guy or responding rudely may cause the situation to escalate. Going places with a female friend doesn’t make a difference but being in the company of a male means I won’t be approached.
    If you want practical advice for your sis, make sure she has a cell phone that she can whip out if she’s threatened and call the police if she needs to. Ultimately, as with rape, women can’t solve this problem by ourselves. Parents frequently teach girls coping strategies. We need to also teach boys what is and isn’t okay.

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 1:28 am ¶

19. RainaWeather wrote:

    @ Koanashi: I agree about the lady thing. It at least shows that a guy has some sort of respect for women when he says lady or miss or ma’am instead of just “say girl”.

    I agree with all the people who said this is about more than just violence. Being harassed and demeaned is bad enough in and of itself.

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 1:31 am ¶

20. kiki wrote:

    There is just no way anyone can predict how other people will react to rejection.

    Which is why we sugar coat the rejection with smiles and pretend to be flattered. Even if you’re giving a fake number or saying you have a boyfriend chances are you’re doing it in a non-threatening way out of fear.

    As for abruptly walking away without playing their game that is some dangerous shit and I can tell you from experience that it can get you hurt.

    …anywhere there are people…

    I walked into a store trying to get away from them and the person behind the counter didn’t say a damn thing…and I don’t blame her since she was afraid too AND they knew where she worked.

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 1:56 am ¶

21. Alexandra wrote:

    This is my first time commenting at this blog but this is horrifying. I really hope they catch guys that did this. I remember my own situation when the guys started following me and friend and calling us stuck up bitches. Luckily it was daylight and some guys stood up for us but me and friend still went a couple of blocks out of our way just be safe. And the worse part it was right after coming back from an anti-street harassment rally.

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 4:14 am ¶

22. thesciencegirl wrote:

    Once, my family stopped to get gas at a gas station in D.C. after a church service, and some guys tried to get my younger sister’s attention (she was about 19 at the time). Besides being there with her boyfriend, she wasn’t interested in some rude guys at a gas station at 11pm. She tried to ignore them, and they showed her that they had a gun to threaten her. My family hightailed it out of there immediately, but it could easily have ended like Mildred’s story. To those claiming sensationalism: I think Mildred’s story is merely an example of how (many) men consider women to be public property. Sometimes the outcome of that is a woman being shamed and embarrassed; sometimes the outcome is sexual assault or rape; and sometimes the result is death. But all of these outcomes stem from a common source: the reduction of women to sexual beings not worthy of respect.

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 10:54 am ¶

23. Ron wrote:

    I know I grew up not having any respect for women and looking at them as a piece of meat. I was socialized and raised in an environment of gangstas, prostitutes, drug dealing where macho attitudes prevail.

    I also knew that certain women should be approached with respect and dignity. Many guys will test you to see what category a woman falls into. Women test and observe men to do the same thing.

    I had no idea that my upbringing was wrong. Many of these men have to be taught for years and need to be reformed. These attitudes do not go aways with just punishment.

    I finally through education and experience have a better appreciation for all women. I stopped categorizing women into good versus bad.

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 11:15 am ¶

24. Karl wrote:

    I appreciate the strategies you all have put fourth….have to try to figure out a way to transmit info to lil sis in a way that isn’t terrorizing (building too thick a climate of fear) or hypocritical (in the sense that in all other matters I tell her fighting for herself is paramount….)

    Thanks Again

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 11:57 am ¶

25. Hokayshenao wrote:

    Traditionally, American men are suppose to buy women’s affection until she realizes that he is a stand up guy. When there is a large economic gap some men feel they have run out of options, and they get angry with the girls they think look pretty.

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 12:40 pm ¶

26. Dr. Dee wrote:

    Kiki,

    I definitely agree with you. There is no foolproof way to avoid a confrontation. But, I do believe that if a stranger wants to hurt me, he’s going to do so regardless of how I react. So, I have some decisions to make. When out in public, I often frown, avoid eye contact, wear dark sunglasses, and stand tall with my head up and shoulders back. I am tall and solidly built, so I am fortunate that I can use my physical size to my advantage. A lot of women are not taller and bigger than many of the men they encounter, so we need to have a variety of strategies. I also don’t want to be unnecessarily antisocial to what may just be a decent man I’m not interested in. If a man approaches me politely and I’m not interested, he gets the “I have a boyfriend/fiance” line and it usually works. If he’s rude and disrespectful and persists, I choose silence and avoidance. It’s a risk, but so is engagement. What if I give some sociopath a fake number and he dials it on the spot? That has happened, so I don’t recommend doing that. I also don’t hesitate to call the police, say I’m a cop, say I’m dating a cop, or walk into a crowded place (if there is one). These are not perfect solutions, but they might be the only options a woman has at the time–unless she has her own gun and is faster on the draw.

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 1:05 pm ¶

27. kiki wrote:

    I do believe that if a stranger wants to hurt me, he’s going to do so regardless of how I react.

    I don’t know. I know there are instances (for example when a guy is with certain guys and can’t lose face, or under the influence) where he might situationally behave in a way that’s not necessarily premeditated but is based on the energy of the situation. This is not always the case, but it seems the case (at least in my neck of the woods) enough that behaving in a non-confrontational way is often a good bet especially in those high pressure moments. I hear where you’re coming from and it’s true there are time when there’s not a damn thing you can do…but in many cases (at least in my life) I know my ability to get rid of the asshole while not poking his fragile ego has saved my skin and other times when I took that other path I got the shit kicked outta me. I don’t want to placate evil and I hate that my behavior reinforces their privilege but I just don’t have it in me any more to mix it up like I once did. That’s the truth.

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 1:55 pm ¶

28. jd wrote:

    I agree with Dr. Dee - if you’re going to use the fake phone number, say in advance that it is NOT your cell number, OR that you don’t have your cell on you at the moment.

    I have a whole fake persona I use when I feel the need to placate or just deflect strange men. It’s actually a real person, just not me. I find that makes it easier to remember the details. She lives on the other side of the country and looks nothing like me, so it’s low-risk for her. (she also knows that I do this and is OK with it.)

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 7:19 pm ¶

29. Sewere wrote:

    What I would really like to know is how these men were raised. The odds are great is that they were taught that this sort of behavior towards women is “okay” and it’s really not.

    Koanashi, nail. head. punto.

    It is so unfortunate, that women have to resort to safe tactics to avoid being violated by men but the fucking truth of the matter is that it is men who are at fault as well as a world that teaches and sustains this behavior. As with racism, sexism requires both personal and institutional changes. ARGH!!! I’m too pissed for words and now I have to go. More later.

    Posted 26 May 2008 at 8:15 pm ¶

30. lm wrote:

    “For the women on the board, do you have a defense playbook/planbook for matters of this sort?”

    Karl, even if, as a woman, you carry your own P9 on the floor of the passenger side, it doesn’t make a crap bit of difference if the man first catcalls you, then shoots at you FIRST.

    I know you men - even, sometimes especially, the good, protective ones - get angry and immediately suggest that the woman take protective measures (your other “favorite sport”) for herself in the face of possible assault.

    I have a blue belt in tae kwon do, know how to shoot, and keep myself in pretty good condition with interval training in the event I have to try to outrun some attacker.

    What you men seem to struggle to deal with is the reality that none of that can help me if the man wants to assault me and is strong enough and close enough to overpower me.

    Men as a group don’t tend to listen to women. I would bet a fair amount of money that if there were more “good” men who checked this type of behavior from other men IN PUBLIC, before it got out of hand and violent, there would be less of it. I don’t approve of the “it’s not my problem, so I don’t have to deal with it” school of mumbling, then walking down the street away from the scene.

    If we women ARE doing everything we can to protect ourselves, and it’s NOT ENOUGH — are you “good” men going to step up to help??

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 1:24 am ¶

31. Mike wrote:

    What a terrible tragedy. Society encourages men to objectify women and this is one of the results. This is an instance where going out as a group didn’t even protect them as it normally would.

    I’ve been in situations where a woman I knew was being asked for a phone number and in order to avoid her pursuer would come over and sit on my lap with her arms around me. That sends a pretty clear message.

    Several people have made the point that despite all efforts sometimes the man will succeed in assaulting the woman he pursues. This is sad and true, but does not mean that women should not do everything within their power to protect themselves.

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 7:55 am ¶

32. gatamala wrote:

    lm~ you’re on point!

    It’s the “good” men not checking this that makes me wonder how “good” they are…

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 9:04 am ¶

33. Lyonside wrote:

    >This is sad and true, but does not mean that women should not do everything within their power to protect themselves.

    This sounds suspiciously like blaming the victim - what’s next, asking what she was wearing? Ultimately, assault victims should not HAVE to rely just on ourselves - it is up to every PERSON to step up and try to prevent what happens before and while it’s happening. Note, I am not limiting the “victim” to women (althought yes, we are disporportionately targeted), or the assaulter to men. As Sewere said, institutional and personal changes from everyone are needed.

    There were 2 recent events that came to mind: the woman who was assaulted on a U Conn path and when she fought back and succeeded, a group of other men who had nothing to do with it circled around her and continued the assault (personal behavior); and the 4 women who fought back against their harasser and are now being PROSECUTED for assault (systemic/institutional bias - and an example of how homophobia and sexism are completely a dynamic Venn diagram of each other).

    The prevailing attitude still seems to be, consciously or subliminally, that a “good” woman fights back (so that she is seen as the madonna, not the whore), but she isn’t SO good at fighting as to be successful (because either that means that she doesn’t need a big man on a white steed to protect her, or less charitably, because the assaulter (not limiting that to men here) still should get what they want).

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 9:15 am ¶

34. Dr. Dee wrote:

    This is a very important subject for me because I know what it’s like to have strange men think they can control me just because I stepped out in public. I was literally dragged onto a dance floor in the early 90s by a man I didn’t know, didn’t want to talk to, and certainly didn’t want to dance with. I didn’t want to dance, but I also didn’t want to make a scene, so I just kind of stood in place while he slow danced. Then, after a few minutes I just got angry. I backed away but he held on, so I shoved him hard and he stumbled backward into another dancing couple. Thank God for upper body strength! Before he could recover, I turned around and walked straight for the door. When I found my friend, I told her what happened and that I wanted to leave. Of course, the guy followed us and actually bumped into me–hard. Not wanting to get into a fight, I ignored him. My friend and I headed to my car, got in, and drove off. The man followed and roared up next to us, made a few menacing gestures, shouted something (I didn’t hear but I can guess), and raced off. Of course, he could have shot us, but looking back on it, I’m glad I held my ground. And there have been other incidents over the years. I’ve had strange men men try to kiss me, corner me, and touch me. And my reaction is always the same–I get away and fast even if I have to shove the idiot. I even carry Binaca, especially when I’m out jogging. If someone gets too close, I will freshen those eyeballs up! I suppose I decided a long time ago that “it’s better to die on my feet than live on my knees. ” I’m not saying being physically “aggressive” is for everyone or even the best option, but I have decided to fight back and forget all that socialization that says I should be “nice” or that says fighting back will only get me hurt. If ignoring the man doesn’t work and my initial politeness is ignored, then I’m not afraid to fight for myself–even if it means getting shot or stabbed. I’m not suggesting anyone should choose physical confrontation, but there is such a thing as self-defense and it is an option. Sometimes just showing courage (and how insane I am) works.

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 9:17 am ¶

35. Eva wrote:

    What the heck is wrong with these men? Were they raised by wolves or something? I’ve known men who weren’t raised with any social graces, but they had the sense enough to read a book or watch TV or something and be able to figure it out. I don’t think it has anything to do with upbringing, I think it has more to do with some people being plain old evil.

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 11:56 am ¶

36. Lyonside wrote:

    I just want to point out that a physical self-defense isnt’ always an option. My mother was shot for fumbling a key during a supermarket robbery. She was obeying instructions as to what to do during an armed robbery (i.e. give them the money). Years later she fended off a break-and-enter-would-be-rapist because the guy was an amateur who used one of our own cheap, very bendable steak knives, and freaked out when my mother was able to bend the knife at her throat. The guy got in while she was sleeping.

    The dangers of placing too much significance on self-defense is that when it fails, or the person chooses not to do it (usually out of inability or other factors, such as risking others, or mistaking the level of threat or danger), it STILL places blame on the victim, not the perpetrator.

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 12:32 pm ¶

37. Sarah wrote:

    @ llchavez

    I’ve been getting catcalled since I was 10 years old. That is bad enough on its own but I can say for a fact that it can lead to even scarier behavior. I’ve had men pinch my ass, or try to rub up against me. Once on the subway a man kept trying to push himself between my legs - I was 14 years old. Another time I got off the train because a man was standing frighteningly close to me, and he followed me.

    And you know what. Most of these men have been Hispanic. I have also been sexually assaulted, not by one man but by two (on separate occasions). Both Hispanic. I don’t believe that all Hispanic men act in this way, nor do I believe that white men or Asian men don’t. But those experiences are going to affect my perceptive. While I do try to challenge my assumptions and remember that my prejudices are my problem to try to fix within myself, it remains a fact that my personal experiences support the stereotypes.

    I don’t know what makes people think they can behave in this manner. It’s also shocking and upsetting that anybody would think that it is no big deal. When a man is catcalling you, he is treated you as an object rather than a person, and if he is looking at you as an object there is an ever present possibility he might use violence against you.

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 12:44 pm ¶

38. socasweet wrote:

    I was once in a street carnival dancing my merry way and this perosn came upbehind me and started dancing. Iturned to see who it was and he shoved his tongue down my throat ( i refuse to call what he did a kiss) i pulled away and got away from him. I told one of my male friends what happened and he laughed at me. Told me that I should not have looked I should just have danced with the boy. I saw that boy later in the night, walked behind him and kicked him in his balls. My same male friend said i was too harsh and that was uncalled for.
    He still does not get how very violated i feel by that incident. How i feel like throwing up when i think about it now years later.

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 2:07 pm ¶

39. Big Man wrote:

    I understand why it was used, but I hate using the word animal. They may have been behaving as such, but they are still human.

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 4:58 pm ¶

40. Cat wrote:

    @socasweet… I know how you feel. To be so angry and feel violated by someone else, and try to turn to a friend for some solace or commiseration, only to hear them say the words I’ve heard way too often when it comes to these things, “oh, you’re making way too big a deal of this. Relax.” I wonder to myself, if they don’t think the incident in question is worth my anger, then how far are they away from doing it themselves? It makes me almost more upset than the actual incident! It certainly seems to shift focus off the perpetrator, and onto myself. As in, it’s not the perpetrator’s fault, it’s my fault for caring about what they did to me.

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 5:54 pm ¶

41. Michelle wrote:

    God, how many times have I thought about wearing a wedding ring just to ward off some of these a-holes? How many times have I had to hear “well, you’re ugly anyway” because I didn’t respond to “yo, ma, what’s good?” I’ve been listening to these nasty fools say stuff to me since I was 11 — going out of their ways to grab for me or stand in my way.

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 6:56 pm ¶

42. jsb16 wrote:

    @Eva: Most wolves have better social skills than these men do.

    As for the perpetrators, may they suffer permanent, incurable erectile dysfunction, accompanied by frequent, irremediable losses of bladder control.

    Posted 27 May 2008 at 8:38 pm ¶

43. Oscar Zoalaster wrote:

    It is very clear to me, and has always (with one very strange exception that I will get to in a bit) been clear that ‘catcalls’ and ‘asking for her phone number’ are not legitimate ways to meet a woman. Catcalls and similar behaviors may be about power and manipulation for some men, but for a lot of men catcalls and asking for a phone number are ‘ways to express interest’ that does not include a comprehension of how the woman (always? sometimes?) experiences those behaviors.

    So, for those of us who do comprehend that catcalls and such are negative experiences for (all? some? many?) women, and for those who do not comprehend this, how should we approach a woman so that she feels complimented, appreciated, and valued, even if her response to an expression of interest (whatever that means) causes her to laugh so hard that it interferes with her ability to say ‘no way’? How can we act so that if there is a chance of something good for both people happening the prospect is not damaged, and that if there is no chance of anything happening both the man and woman feel happy about how the interaction went?

    The very strange exception that I mentioned above involves my mother. My mother is a very private person and, except for her obvious love for my father, is someone whom I would describe as ‘chaste and reserved’. One day when she was in her late forties she walked home from the grocery store and arrived with a big smile and almost walking on air. She was quite seriously glowing when she told us that she had been whistled at by some college guys driving past and one of them had hollered ‘Hey Hot Mama!’.

    Apparently, in that specific case, she found the experience complimentary. But in thinking over her description of the situation I cannot think of any way that those ‘college guys’ could have known that would have been the case….and prudence clearly dictates that one should assume that any similar action would - at best - be poorly received….

    I am just really tired of knowing that if I ever dare express an interest in someone who has not already expressed an interest in me I run a huge risk of being labeled a ‘jerk’…but also being expected to ‘make the first move’ and being told that I am not an acceptable boyfriend prospect because my ‘not trying anything’ proves that I’m ‘not really interested’ and that my not making passes is ‘disrespectful’ (based on actual conversations, and I was told that my protestations of politeness was just an attempt to ‘cover up my disinterest in her’, and that I should be more honest).

    If I knew a way to respectfully make a pass at a woman I liked I would, but since there is - apparently - not a respectful way to make a pass at a woman….I’m stuck with being polite and alone.

    Posted 28 May 2008 at 1:01 am ¶

44. Willow wrote:

    I’m just reminded over and over again about my post about Good Girls vs Bad Girls (Madonna/Whore) and what’s permissible in each or something will happen.

    The thing that’s hitting me is that what happened at UConn and what happened here are the incidents that get reported. But just looking at the comments it’s easy to see how much doesn’t end up on the evening news, far less moving across some policeman’s desk.

    It happens every day, all the time at any time of the day. From men checking to see if you have a ring on your finger and if you don’t, they feel free to ‘make conversation’ - some of which includes talking about your breasts and what they want to do to you.

    Someone told me a quote just the other day in a book about survivalism: “Men live in fear that women will laugh at them. Women live in fear that men will kill them.”

    Never has something struck me so hard as a kind of truth I live with. Something is sweeping the globe and it’s not good. A few years back it was always in the news about how some poor girl or woman in India had battery acid thrown in her face for refusing a man or being thought to refuse him. There are some utterly enraged about rape victims being stoned in the Middle East. All the while, it’s now in the US that girls get shot or threatened with being run off the road. And day to day stuff includes grabbing and fondling.

    —

    Posted 28 May 2008 at 2:11 am ¶

45. wendi muse wrote:

    re:: those who think this is an isolated incident…

    with guns, maybe, but with violence, definitely not. i have heard countless stories of women (and, in my experience, a whole helluva a lot of black and/or latina women…though not to say it doesn’t happen to other people too) being harassed to the point where rape, attempted rape, assault, etc have occured, my own personal experience included. you’re stuck between a rock and a hard place when you have to deal with catcallers. i already feel threatened by men’s presence anyway (if i am by myself and the only female on the street), so when that person begins to assess my physical attributes in an animalistic way, you’d better believe my defense mechanisms go into effect. i tense up and try to sneak quietly by. unfortunately, ignoring some people only makes them worse

    Posted 28 May 2008 at 5:51 am ¶

46. gatamala wrote:

    Oscar~

    Please note that there is a time and a place for everything. Are you in places where folks mingle or is your head hanging out of the car window? Is she rushing by in a business suit and you’re hanging out with your friends?

    But you could start with “hey, how are you?” or “good morning”. You could try something innocuous like the weather (no matter how corny it seems). If she turns away, that’s a hint. If you think that you have to grab her arm (it has happened to all women) to get her attention, she’s not interested and you should leave her alone (and should never, ever put your hands on anyone). If she has white wires coming from her ears, she’s not interested in meeting anyone.

    I don’t think you (or men in general) understand that it is assumed that women are just available and ripe for the picking. Most (if not all) days we just want to get some coffee and a paper, go for a jog, go to work and aren’t looking for some guy (girl to be fair). You (collective, not personal) don’t have a right to anyone’s attention.

    Willow~ that quote is so accurate it’s frightening.

    Guys, think about it:

    “Men live in fear that women will laugh at them. Women live in fear that men will kill them.”

    You don’t have it so hard.

    Posted 28 May 2008 at 11:36 am ¶

47. Sara wrote:

    Gun control could help a lot here.

    Posted 28 May 2008 at 12:52 pm ¶

48. Radfem wrote:

    What I would really like to know is how these men were raised. The odds are great is that they were taught that this sort of behavior towards women is “okay” and it’s really not.

    Yeah. What’s disheartening often is how young the harassers are. Younger men, high school age or even junior high more often seem to harass in groups (for reinforcement?) whether on foot or in cars. I think a lot about what they are being taught.

    One of my favorite experiences, was while walking down a street and this guy on a bike kept circling around me calling me every thing in the book and I’d cross to the other side, he’d follow, do the same thing. Tell him to get lost, he wouldn’t. I ended up walking in the center divider with cars whizzing by now and then but he’d still be at it. Even the possibility of getting splattered on the grill of a car didn’t distract him.

    I got ticked off and finally stopped in the middle of the street and yelled, “If you don’t get the fuck out of my way and leave me alone, I’m going to be the bitch you called me and bite your fucking balls off.”

    He left quickly and quietly. I wouldn’t recommend that in every circumstance and that’s part of what’s hard is that it’s left up to us the women to decide how to go through what might be a minefield of ways to respond. We have to figure out what frees us, keeps us safe or gets us injured and killed and there’s no way to know a lot of the time including that most often, we don’t know these men.

    Posted 28 May 2008 at 2:34 pm ¶

49. Megan wrote:

    I agree with Sara re gun control for this specific kind of incident… I live in Canada and of course there is still a problem with rape and sexual assault/general violence, but less so with weapons.
    Personally I try to carry myself powerfully and if I get catcalled, etc., my reaction is usually to tell the person to fuck off. But I’m lucky to live in a relatively safe area where the threat of violent retaliation isn’t usually very high…
    It’s horrifying that it’s even worse for many women of colour because as a white woman I feel threatened very frequently… I can’t imagine things being worse. ARGH. It’s really frustrating.

    Posted 28 May 2008 at 3:33 pm ¶

50. Kaonashi wrote:

    Gun control laws wouldn’t make a difference, since the people who are most likely to shoot you over ignoring their advances aren’t getting guns through legal channels, or they’ll get a machete and take a whack at you proper London Style.

    No, I’m not joking. People get attacked by machetes over there like people get shot here in the States. Then you have Japan with the subway perverts, the “its okay to beat the hell out of a woman who pisses you off or worse” attitude that goes on in Russia and “Eve-teasing” in India. Street Harassment is a EOE by itself and it all boils down to men having little to no respect for women in general and treating them as objects instead of human beings.

    Posted 28 May 2008 at 8:08 pm ¶

51. Lyonside wrote:

    >So, for those of us who do comprehend that catcalls and such are negative experiences for (all? some? many?) women, and for those who do not comprehend this, how should we approach a woman so that she feels complimented, appreciated, and valued, even if her response to an expression of interest (whatever that means) causes her to laugh so hard that it interferes with her ability to say ‘no way’? How can we act so that if there is a chance of something good for both people happening the prospect is not damaged, and that if there is no chance of anything happening both the man and woman feel happy about how the interaction went?

    Oscar, how about starting with the premise that women are PEOPLE (obvious, I know, but bear with me), and therefore, may not be looking for a “line,” but a decent, interesting conversation? About something relevant and interesting, or some aspect that is overall appealing, not their bust size or anything that reduces a woman to the sum of her parts? Again, in the right circumstances (not a street, not a gas station, etc).

    Case in point: a guy once came up to me at a club, where I’d been dancing alone. I’d come with a bunch of friends and their dates, but I was the 7th wheel, and went to another floor. Eventally a slow song made me sit down, and a fellow asked 1) could he sit here for a second, 2) asked if I were local, told me he was from Jersey with friends, told me a few funny stories about said friends (one was trouble, and he was watching out for him), and 3) said that he’d liked watching me dance, and could he ask for a dance. A few fun, flirty, but not forward dances later, and another chat, and he asked for my number before he left (with aforementioned too-drunk-to-stand friend). The politeness was charming, and he presumed nothing and seemed legitimately interested in me.
    After a little hesitation, I gave it.

    Dear reader, I married him.

    Posted 28 May 2008 at 9:19 pm ¶

52. DiosaNegra1967 wrote:

    S**t like this depresses the living hell out of me….damn…..

    I started getting “the calls” when I was about 13…and had an incident where two (possibly in their 50’s) men decided to “block” my way while I was walking (one in front, and one behind)…

    Unbeknownst to them, I carried a switchblade in my right combat boot….which I pulled out!

    I managed to “leave my mark” on one of them and get away…..I didn’t live too far from where this happened…..

    And about men seeing women as something to “own” or feeling “entitled” to affection from us….IMHO, males (of color or not) are generally taught that women are something to dominate, own, bully or brutalize….

    WOC especially are viewed as “property”…I could go into plenty of racial stereotypes here, but I won’t….

    Um, and fellas wonder why we don’t “smile” when walking down the street?

    “Men live in fear that women will laugh at them. Women live in fear that men will kill them.”

    Truer words have never been spoken….

    Posted 29 May 2008 at 9:57 am ¶

53. Amortiseur wrote:

    As a victim of sexual assault, I struggle with post-traumatic stress disorder on a daily basis. These types of situations (cat-calling, aggression, sexual advances)not only make me nervous - they give me anxiety attacks.
    Sometimes I have to force myself to walk home alone (even in daylight) because I’m so scared and I simply refuse to be stagnated because of my PTSD.

    My “friends” knew who my rapist was, and still continued to hang out with him. One of my friends even made out with him at a party. Having to deal with it, knowing my friends did not understand what rape does to a victim, was sickening. It’s disgusting to see how blase some people can be about this topic, considering how much risk my “friends” are also at for being in my shoes at some point in their lives. Btw, it’s 1 in 5 for women and 1 in 7 for men - the odds of being sexually assaulted.

    My (now ex) boyfriend couldn’t handle the fact that I was a rape victim, saying things like, “I am so hurt by this, too, can’t you be there for me?” He never offered support when I needed it horribly because he was ‘too busy grieving himself”. He wasn’t even dating me when I was assaulted, so how could that have happened to him? He is not a victim!!!
    He also told me that I was no longer sexually attractive to him, simply because I was a victim of sexual assault.
    THAT is exactly the mentality I was drowning in, and he decided to reinforce my fears - that I was wasted, used, disgusting garbage, that no man would ever want to love this “damaged good” ever again. That no man would ever want to love me (physically or emotionally) after hearing about my baggage.

    It is a horrible situation with so many implications that people don’t think of. For example, I still can’t bring myself to tell my mom, but she has outright asked me if “a guy has done anything bad” to me. How can I look her in the eye and break her heart like that? She doesn’t really want to know, you know? That’s not something you look forward to hearing. Ever. Especially not from your child.

    Luckily, the guy I’m talking to knows I am a survivor and he respects me for that. He respects how I have come through, how I’m still fighting, and that I had the guts to tell him about my assault. It’s a nice feeling, to have a good person, a good friend, understand without having to prove something to them.

    Posted 29 May 2008 at 11:03 am ¶

54. Amortiseur wrote:

    To Oscar Zoalaster :

    Just treat her as you would a friend who is a guy - conversation, ask her about what kind of music she likes, what food she likes, her job, etc. Women appreciate it when a guy sees us for more than just t*ts and *ss but are actual whole beings in the eyes of men.
    So, passes and pick-up lines don’t work on a lot of women because we don’t want to be harassed for our attention - we just want to be respected.
    If you’re looking for a good way to meet a girl, maybe bars aren’t the easiest (the booze encourages bad pick-up lines). Meeting a girl in class, in line, on the train, at the store, at church (if you have a religion), through your friends….Just treat all women with respect and soon they will be falling all over you.
    TRUST me.

    Posted 29 May 2008 at 11:15 am ¶

55. Oscar Zoalaster wrote:

    Amortiseur wrote:

    “To Oscar Zoalaster :
    Just treat her as you would a friend who is a guy - conversation, ask her about what kind of music she likes, what food she likes, her job, etc. Women appreciate it when a guy sees us for more than just t*ts and *ss but are actual whole beings in the eyes of men.
    So, passes and pick-up lines don’t work on a lot of women because we don’t want to be harassed for our attention - we just want to be respected.
    If you’re looking for a good way to meet a girl, maybe bars aren’t the easiest (the booze encourages bad pick-up lines). Meeting a girl in class, in line, on the train, at the store, at church (if you have a religion), through your friends….Just treat all women with respect and soon they will be falling all over you.
    TRUST me.
    

    I do that all the time. When, after I’ve known her for a year or two and feel that the friendship is real, I do get up the nerve to ask her for a date I get told that I’m ‘just a friend’ and she ‘doesn’t think of me that way’. I have lots of women who are friends, but finding someone to be romantic with is much more problematic. (I wait until I’m sure of the friendship because sexual harassment is defined ‘as any unwanted sexual advance’, so I want to be sure that if she says ‘no’ that the friendship is not ended - after all dating, since it is supposed to lead to marriage and socially sanctioned sexual activity - is intrinsically ‘a sexual advance’ even if I never say anything lewd or touch her.)

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 9:44 pm ¶

56. Oscar Zoalaster wrote:

    Lyonside wrote: “Case in point: a guy once came up to me at a club, where I’d been dancing alone. [snip] Eventally a slow song made me sit down, and a fellow asked 1) could he sit here for a second, 2) asked if I were local, told me he was from Jersey with friends, told me a few funny stories about said friends [snip], and 3) said that he’d liked watching me dance, and could he ask for a dance. A few fun, flirty, but not forward dances later, and another chat, and he asked for my number before he left [snip]. The politeness was charming, and he presumed nothing and seemed legitimately interested in me.
    After a little hesitation, I gave it.
    Dear reader, I married him.”

    I would have done fine with the asking if I could sit there, and telling a few funny stories. I am very very good at polite entertaining conversation. Asking someone to dance would be rather risky, but in the environment - a rather unusual one for me - I might have done it. Maybe. Perhaps. But there is no way that I would have asked for ‘your’ phone number, that would be far too forward, far too much like asking for a date, and far too much like the kind of arrogant demanding possessive jerk I do not want to be seen as. The most I could have done would be to give ‘you’ my phone number and say that I would like it if ‘you’ called me…an approach that has never worked for me.

    Posted 30 May 2008 at 9:57 pm ¶

57. Kylie wrote:

    The fact that women have to say they’re married or engaged in order to get off the hook IS THE PROBLEM!!! Men do not respect women, they respect other men. This is the world we live in.

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 5:35 am ¶

58. Dr. Dee wrote:

    I agree with Kylie, Cat, Socasweet, and Amortiseus. Generally, men in this and many other societies do not respect women. Male “friends” can be some of the worst offenders and often inadvertently reflect just how deeply ingrained this lack of respect and social equity is. I have met my share of male “friends” at school, at work, and in various communities who think that women are “being too hard on men” who catcall and make unwanted sexual advances and who think that women “make a big deal” out of “harmless” attempts at getting to know them. It’s also amazing to me how many men don’t find anything wrong with insulting and slandering women who have rejected them. Some male “friends” who have been rebuffed by women friends think nothing of slander and character assasination. Just like name calling, impugning a woman’s reputation, motives, and feelings is a way to regain a feeling of power and control over a woman who has exerted her own will. Catcalling and violence are on a continuum of social behavior that includes slander and character assasination. What all of this behavior does is relegate women to second class citizenship–to “property” (My old man won’t like my talking to you…). The male sexual “right” to choose and pursue women is normalized so that when the “game” of “pursuit” becomes deadly, it’s still very simple to expect the women involved to have done something other than what they did (they should have…) or to exonerate the male culture that accepts male control over female bodies (this is an isolated incident…). Men and women who challenge male sexual privilege, who speak out about the sexual politics that grant men physical, psychological, and social control over women, are often told we are overreacting and overly sensitive. We are made to think our reactions are the problem. This is part of why it remains dangerous for women to go out in public.

    Posted 31 May 2008 at 11:07 pm ¶

59. Adrianna wrote:

    I live in Haiti And don’t leave my house, because of that. I hate going out and being treated like meat. I ignore them, but having lived in the Sates it’s really hard, because I want to tell them to fuck off! In Haiti women can’t be confrontational, because there is a lot of kidnapping going on. Usually when they kidnap women they have no pity. They do what warlord in the Congo do. it’s terrifying. The supermarket is not safe, library, nowhere is for a women. When I tell the men in my family they say that I’m going to get myself killed. At least I’ll die fighting.

    I’m disgusted by this story I feel for this Girl. We need to find really solution to stop those savages from doing that to other women.

    Living here I think about it everyday, cause I live in constant fear. When I was younger and living here. It kept me awake at night and having anxiety attacks. I find it disturbing that my basic human rights are not respected,because of my gender. It’s sad that i will never never feel safe in my own country. And it’s even sadder That I feel anxious when around all men here. They see it as a normal thing to make sexist and violent jokes towards women.

    Women worldwide needs to form their own gangs. Like these women

    http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2007/12/05/gang-of-pink-indian-women-fight-social-injustice

    Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 2:33 am ¶

60. Dr. Dee wrote:

    Adrianna, thanks for the link. I understand your feelings and share them. We shouldn’t have to live in fear of the people we encounter.

    Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 7:25 pm ¶

61. Mary wrote:

    Tragic update to this story: Mildred Beaubrun has died.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-teenshot0408jun04,0,3744827.story

    Absolutely heartbreaking.

    Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 11:55 am ¶

62. Kayla wrote:

    I live in Central Florida and recently we had a 19yr old young lady gunned down, because a guy asked her for her number and she said no. This is sad…you can’t even refuse to give your number anymore.

    Posted 06 Jun 2008 at 4:24 pm ¶

63. Mike wrote:

    Lyonside I’m afraid you misunderstand me. My sister was raped. I have several very good friends who were raped. I would never in a million years blame the victim. I simply stated that rape is a sad reality and that women should make very effort to defend themselves in such situations. I don’t care if a woman is walking around naked and coming onto a man or group of men, if she says no, then it is rape and it is not her fault if it happens. No really does mean no.

    Posted 10 Jun 2008 at 5:56 pm ¶

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