Who Racialized the Music?

by Guest Contributor Kelvin

As a kid growing up in Nigeria, I was exposed to a lot of music by my parents. I grew up listening to artists such as Michael Jackson, Dolly Parton, Sting, Phil Collins, Fela Kuti, and Candi Staton. Back then, music was just that – music.

There were no artificial limitations on what you could and couldn’t listen to. That was when I was a kid in the 1980’s. Now, I’m an adult in my mid twenties living in the United States and my perspective on music has been challenged. I’ve come to understand that there are certain genres of music that black people are supposed to listen to and other genres they aren’t supposed to listen to.

When I say supposed, I’m not saying that someone is going to put a gun to your head because you listen to Foo Fighters. Rather, there is a societal expectation that if you are black, your choice in music should be hip hop, R&B, and Jazz. Black folks who listen to anything outside of the scared 3 genres are looked at as weird, acting white, fake, white wannabes so on and so forth. This new perspective leads me to ask this question: can taste in music be attributed to a person’s race?

I did my undergrad at a very popular HBCU (Historically Black College/University) in Washington D.C where hip hop was the usual fare. I was usually the odd one out of the bunch. I would be the dude rocking out to Coldplay, Kaskade, or Radiohead and I always noticed that people looked at me funny when they heard what I was listening to. I was actually once approached by a friend who advised me to not play my ‘white music’ while I was on campus. I understand that hip hop is the dominant musical art form in urban areas but I can’t understand why a person would judge someone else who is interested in something different.

Ironically, I found that some of the folks who held this type of mindset were closet alt-music listeners.

The funniest case was a female co-worker of mine at my school job who used to tease me all the time because my music collection consisted of bands such as Deftones, Avenged Sevenfold, Bad Brains, and DJ Tiesto. She always used to tell me that I was meant to be a white person. Later on I found out that she also listened to alternative music albeit only in the privacy of her house. Imagine my amazement when I found a copy of the Coldplay album “Parachutes” in her bag. I asked her about it but she never gave me a straight answer and I never really pressed her for one. These incidents in addition to others got me thinking; what does taste in music have to do with race? I still have not figured that one out.

I’ll be the first to say that I’m not in love with 99% of the commercial hip hop songs out nowadays. I listen to only a few hip hop acts such as Missy Elliot, Timbaland, Jurassic 5, The Roots, and De La Soul. I’m just not interested in the “gangsta” message that seems to be so popular with some of the current crop of commercial hip hop acts. I’m a huge consumer of Electronica, dance, Rock, and Alternative music. I’m that guy on the dance floor dancing to Kaskade’s remix of Britney Spears’ “Gimme More”. That’s what I like because it sounds good to me. I believe that music is very subjective and each person will like what they like. My taste in music is purely auditory and emotional. There are certain songs that have the ability to uplift me when I’m down or to relax me when I’m tense. When I feel like being a bad ass, I’ll listen to “Bodies” by Drowning Pool and when I want to just chill, I’ll listen to “Surrender” by Kaskade. When I’m sad and I listen to “Steppin Out” by Kaskade, I get happy. Why do these songs have that effect on me? I really can’t answer that with words. I just get that vibe that can only come from something you really like. These songs speak to my mind and my ears but not my skin pigment.

Music has nothing to do with skin color and it never will to me.

The injection of race into music preference is a purely human addition which corresponds with other things in this world which humans use race as a point of reference for. My music preference cannot determine the authenticity of my ‘blackness’. My music taste is not who I am in totality but rather I see it as a part of what makes me who I am.

In the end though, I found that this issue of music taste and race is just another facet of the long running cultural conditioning that takes place in this country. The perceptions formed by people due to this cultural conditioning that people go through helps feed most of the stereotypes that exists in society. The stereotype that Blacks listen to only hip-hop and Whites listen to only Rock music is just one of the many stereotypes out there. This stereotypical view is held by quite a number of people spanning the racial gamut in America. The funny reactions to my music tastes have not been limited to just black people. I also get it from White folks as well. I was called “a different type of black guy” once at a Mute Math concert in D.C. I might have been the only black person at the concert. I remember an Imogen Heap concert I attended a little while back. She was performing a song titled “Hide & Seek” and I began to sing along because I really liked the song. A white lady next to me at the concert remarked that she did not know black people liked that type of music.

In my opinion, linking race to musical preference is not very helpful as it just creates needless divisions. Just as many in this country strive for diversity in the workplace and in schools, we should embrace diversity when it comes to music as well because it has some positives to it. By embracing this diversity, a less hostile atmosphere can be created for Black folks who listen to stuff like rock, punk, and house where they won’t feel weird or have to form their own special groups based on exclusions. By embracing this diversity, we can learn from the styles of different genres and infuse those learned styles to create innovative forms of expressions. I was so ecstatic when I heard “Stronger” by Kanye West because not only was it a fantastic song but Kanye West collaborated with Daft Punk, one of the biggest names in Electronica/House music to remake what was already a classic titled “Better, Stronger, Faster.” This open minded collaboration produced one of the biggest songs of 2007. And he’s not the only one. Jay-Z (hip-Hop) has collaborated with Linkin Park (Nu-Metal), Cee-Lo is one half of the duo that makes up Gnarls Barkley, Beyonce and Kelly Rowland tipped dance music DJ Freemason to produce dance remixes of some of their singles after the unexpected successes of “Déjà vu (Freemason Dance mix)” by Beyonce and “Work (Freemason Dance Mix)” by Kelly Rowland on the Dance Music charts.

Filmmakers have also taken note of this issue and have been exploring it in depth. There are two note-worthy documentaries about African Americans in other non-traditional genres. “Afro-Punk” is a documentary that looks at Blacks in the punk music scene and “Electric Purgatory: The Fate of the Black Rocker” looks at blacks in the Rock music scene.

I hope that as we continue to move forward in our attempt to battle negative racial perceptions in this Country, the issue of race and musical preference dies a very quick death.

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Race and Music - Is it “normal” for an Asian girl to like Sarah McLachlan? « Immigration, Assimilation, Ethnicity and All That Jazz on 21 May 2008 at 11:01 am

    […] by chinesecanuck on May 21, 2008 Racialicious has an interesting post about ethnicity/race and music today.  Kelvin, a guest contributor, spent his childhood years in Nigeria listening to a diverse group […]

  2. African American Musicians In Twin Cities Area - Minneapolis - St. Paul - Minnesota (MN) - Twin Cities - Page 2 - City-Data Forum on 29 Apr 2009 at 6:00 pm

    […] or she is attempting to find work in a genre that is traditionally considered "white." Who Racialized the Music? at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture It’s also true that young, white, liberal, hipster bands might foam at the mouth at the thought of […]

Comments

  1. deviousdiva wrote:

    oh oh oh please try being in the music biz (not doing hip hop, R&B, and Jazz)

    It’s really sad that we (poc) and especially woc like me are not allowed to be punks, rockers and wild innovators. I know because I’m trying to do it !

    Love your post and thank you

  2. Bored Kidz!!!! wrote:

    I’m a deaf South Asian, brown skinned Muslim punk rocker. I’ve been accused many times of trying to be and act “white,” because I love punk rock with passion and for having a mohawk. Excuse my ass for not wanting to listen to crappy pop music sung by plastic gals that I can’t relate to.

  3. Leigh wrote:

    Story of my life! I have had the exact same experiences and what makes it more complicated is that I’m a mixed South African so people do not understand how I can listen to ‘white’ music and act ‘white’ when I’m just being myself and listening to the kinds of music that I enjoy.

  4. CG wrote:

    I feel the same on the reverse… I am white, but listen to more R&B, Hip-Hop, soul, jazz, with some electronica, drum & bass, techno and rock thrown in there. Almost all of my friends though listen to rock and alternative-type music. I bought tickets to see Kanye West and I couldn’t find a darn soul to go with me! Honestly, I didn’t say it but I really do feel that my friends chose not to go not because they didn’t like Kanye or the other opening acts (because they listen to the radio and I know they like some of Ye’s more popular hits) but because of their uneasiness with the idea of being amongst a sea of black people at a hip-hop concert (Because you know those rap concerts are trouble!). Funny thing is, the crowd was more diverse than I expected it to be, and I truly felt it would be fairly diverse to begin with.

    My parents were born & raised in a village in eastern Europe, and though I was born in the US, the music I was surrounded by growing up was the traditional music from former Yugoslavia that they rocked in the house incessantly. It wasn’t until middle school that I started to become exposed to American music more heavily (other than hearing songs played in the store while shopping with mom, or what my friend’s older brother was listening to in his room), when my parents bought me my very own radio with cassette deck. Playing with the tune dial, I explored all the stations I could get, and found myself regularly gravitating to the r&b stations, and underground college radio stations on hip-hop nights. This was all foreign to my fellow white friends in school, but I didn’t care, and followed what pleased my ears. When I got to high school, (because you know in HS everyone must be labeled and fall into a clique) I caught slack from white friends who said I was trying to be black, and black friends wondering who this white girl thinks she is, trying to talk about hip-hop, sharing her mix tapes of then-unknown artists in her Sony Walkman…

    It truly is a shame that media has forced these divides, and actually makes people feel ashamed to listen to varied music and in the reverse, makes people feel afraid to venture into “unwelcome” territory (i.e., that rap, hip-hop, soul, jazz, and even films and tv shows are a ‘for us by us’ notion and whites aren’t welcome to it).

  5. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    Love this post, Kelvin–and, yeah, I can relate. My mom and I still argue over Jimi Hendrix: she refuses to listen to him because his music “doesn’t have a beat,” which is her code for “white folks’ music.” When I state that “When the Wind Cries Mary,” “Voodoo Chile,” and “The Star-Spangled Banner” do have rhythms, she offers the excuse, “Well, I think you need to have like jazz to like Hendrix.” When I say that her argument isn’t correct and that she should actually *listen* some recordings, she laughs it off and says she just won’t be able to get him. To my mom, Hendrix played music that she perceives to be “white, ” and therefore, 1) it’s not worth listening to and 2) gets Hendrix’s Black card revoked. I wonder if this kind or reception from Black folks (including the promoters and producers during his time) as well as some white people’s perception that a Black man couldn’t be a rock god (even though two revered guitarists, The Who’s Pete Townsend and Eric Clapton, said Hendrix blew them away) that led Hendrix to go to overseas in the first place. Yet, she loves Prince, a Hendrix heir. She taught me to read the classics to understand literature, but she won’t take her own advice and listen to musical classics because they don’t neatly fit into her racial paradigm. SMH

  6. Dan wrote:

    It takes a fundamentally dishonest view of music to apply rap with a predominantly black audience because the conventional wisdom is that 80% of all rap music purchases are made by whites. So while the societal view is that blacks should listen to R&B, Jazz, and Rap, it only brings up thoughts of the dozens of other irrational and false stereotypes that are pushed by society such as blacks being more prone to crime and blacks being more prone to drug use. Both of which are astoundingly false and quite the opposite of the truth.

    If I were black, the fact that whites are 80% of rap consumers alone would cause me to look at rap with a raised eyebrow and research that statistic further.

  7. CG wrote:

    I’m happy Pharrell Williams said this in a recent interview:

    “”The average hip-hop head is inspired by different things too, which is a huge issue I have. We allow media to think we’re for us, by us and only us and that’s not true,” the super producer tells The Source. “The average hip-hop head watches ‘The Sopranos,’ ‘The Price Is Right’ and ‘SpongeBob SquarePants.’ None of these have any hip-hop innuendos. We’re human beings, capable of being entertained and inspired by many different things. That’s one of the things I fight for.”"

    http://www.ballerstatus.com/article/news/2008/04/4500/

  8. Cynthia wrote:

    Story of mine too.

    I cut my hair off last year and I’m thinking of growing it out to do a mohawk.

    I like what I like. I love music, plain and simple.

    I take dance classes and for our final we had to choose song to choreograph songs too. All the people in my class went the urban route, I stepped up to the stage playing “sober” by tool.

    Hey, I was feeling it that day.

    I say play what you like and don’t worry about what others think. I love Radiohead, a friend and I went to their concert in Atlanta and we expected to be the only two black people but we weren’t. It was great!

  9. leftofemma wrote:

    This has been linked to before on this site, but I think that it’s worth checking out for those who haven’t heard it. I feel like this every time I go to a punk show.

    http://www.cspaniels.com
    THE ONLY BLACK GUY AT THE INDIE-ROCK SHOW

    At every single show, I am the only one who looks like me; the only sign of melanin in one big sea of ivory. My FUBU shirts and Tommy jeans…their bowling shirts and dirty Vans…I look just like a thug amongst the dressed-down Pavement fans. It shouldn’t even matter that I’m the only black guy at the indie-rock show. I stand in a crowd and still feel alone. Some loser at the Mercury said, “I just want to let you know Jay-Z’s at Austin Music Hall. I think you’re at a different show” (that’s not funny, man). Everyone is standing still (nodding heads and folded hands), looking at me like a freak because I have the nerve to dance. I ask my black friends to try out something new and come with me to the show; they’re so reluctant to go. There’s more to music than rap and R&B, but they say rock is a white man’s game. I know Chuck Berry wouldn’t feel the same. I told a white friend the opening band was “crunk.” He didn’t understand the slang. He asked if I was in a gang. I wonder if I will live to see the day when I see rock bands on BET and black girls dance to GBV…and I wonder if white folks who like Jay-Z often feel as alienated as me.

    -Sean Padilla

  10. DiosaNegra1967 wrote:

    Co-sign! It’s nice to see the tide changing…..it really is…..

    I went to a Danzig concert last fall….needless to say, there were some quizzed looks….but, whatevah!

  11. bertie wrote:

    In my experience, the strongest proponents of towing the “black music” line were black folks who were raised in or went to high school in majority white environments. I have found the most acceptance of and curiosity/interest in diverse musical styles has come from black folks raised predominantly around other black folks. I know this is a gross generalization but its based on my experience. My college friends from Chicago and Detriot (which I jokingly refer to as the blackest place on earth–outside of maybe Southeast DC) actually put me onto to some of the non-”black” styles that I enjoy like house, drum and base and electronica. But man, if I tried to play some morcheeba around the middleclass black folks I went to my majority white highschool and college with they’d have revoked my black card immedately.

  12. Sandy wrote:

    Great Post! I think it’s rather interesting how White artists are allowed to cross all genres with relative ease (Country, Rap, R&B, Rock, etc.) while POC often are not or either met with great difficulty if they try. Where is the fairness? Last I checked we listened to music with our ears not our eyes.

  13. Zenobia wrote:

    The funniest case was a female co-worker of mine at my school job who used to tease me all the time because my music collection consisted of bands such as Deftones, Avenged Sevenfold, Bad Brains, and DJ Tiesto.

    Oh yeah, those extremely white guys, the Bad Brains, totally acting white with massive dreadlocks and albums called stuff like I Against I.

    I noticed an interesting thing reading the music press: it’s considered perfectly normal for white guys to have always had a bit of a hip hop element, to be really into blues, etc. etc., but Andre 3000 comes along and likes Kate Bush and Nirvana, and it’s like ‘Wooooooaaah, eclectic black guy!’.

    Kind of silly, because rock music is multiracial and multicultural to start with. I mean, it’s based on blues which uses a combination of African and European scales, as Chuck D once said it’s basically African music played on an Arabic instrument.

    And even something like Fela Kuti, which you wouldn’t think of as anything other than African music, is the product of Fela going to the States and getting into James Brown and Black Power groups, so even that’s far more international than it appears on the surface. I mean, he sang in English for a start, there’s probably a reason for that.

    Plus, there are a few 70-year-old Scottish folkies that Led Zep should be writing cheques to, but the 80-year-old Delta Blues guys are far more numerous. To say nothing about Eric Clapton who tries kind of hard to be the middle English Robert Johnson.

    There’s really nothing culturally specific about any popular music, or at least not in that way. In other ways, most of the best stuff couldn’t have been made by anyone other than guys who lived in X and grew up listening to Y from a totally different continent. Look at the relationship between punk and reggae for instance, the hardcore rhythm you hear in Minor Threat is basically sped up reggae.

    Anyway, enough waffling, since this is one of my favourite topics and I could go on for hours.

  14. Kirk Van Irvin wrote:

    I feel you man. The Pet Shop Boys and Depeche Mode are my favorite groups , and I get dogged constantly about it!! It’s done as a joke though , but would always start something taking about somebody’s music! :) It’s I get dogged about the PSB for two reasons : black people aren’t suppose to listen to it , and that only homosexuals like it. But going narrow your music down considerably If you don’t listen to music because Gays sing and or listen to it.

  15. sylvie wrote:

    props. i take issue with racializing cultural tastes. i mean, by that definition i’m trying to be black for listening to wu-tang (or asian, since we did draft them according to “chappelle’s show”), white for listening to radiohead, cuban for listening to buena vista social club, gay for listening to rufus wainwright, and a cartoon for listening to gorillaz.

  16. Dan wrote:

    It’s funny that society projects that rock is a white man’s game.

    Before rap, in the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s, you had black music that was BREAKING GROUND. To be honest, it can be argued with no difficulty that Rock ‘N’ Roll was in fact INVENTED by African Americans. Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Bo Diddley (hey Elvis, where’d you get your material from?), etc. Arguably the greatest Rock group of all time - Led Zeppelin - stole much of their material from Willie Dixon (which they ultimately compensated in a lawsuit that Dixon filed).

    Not to mention in the early 20th century, as early as the 1930’s, you can listen to black country and blues music and hear distinct elements of rock n’ roll.

    So when I hear talk of African American Rock, I think a return to normalcy. A return to roots. I feel the last great Rock ‘movement’ was in the early 90’s with the Seattle movement (Nirvana, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, Stone Temple Pilots, etc.). Since then, in my opinion, rock has become annoying whiny screeching about teenage angst.

    Now couldn’t be a better time for a strong black rock movement. We sorely need it.

  17. J wrote:

    good post! i’m black and i love hardcore and metal. my parents listen to 60s and 70s classic rock. my extended family refers to us as the “white people” or the “honkies”.

    i caught a lot of crap in middle/high school for listening to the smashing pumpkins, deftones, and tool. now what i like to do is whenever someone pulls the “oh, i didn’t know you listened to that kind of music.” i look at them and say “well, what did you think i listened to?” of course they aren’t going to say i should obviously know the lyrics to every rap song because i’m black, but it’s nice to see them squirm.

  18. deb wrote:

    Yet, she loves Prince, a Hendrix heir.

    I am Black. I have never experienced Hendrix, not sure why either. Perhaps it’s because I didn’t hear him at home, nor did I ever hear him on the radio stations I listened to.

    But, but, but, I was a diehard Prince fan! Especially back in his black bikini briefs, leg warmers and trenchcoat wearin’ days. :D I was aware of the Hendrix connection, but still not curious enough about the man to explore it.

    Conversely, I’m not all that into jazz either, at least not what I think of as hardcore jazz; musicians like Miles, Monk, Coltrane, Bird, etc. I can’t quite wrap my brain around it. So, my quick and dirty answer to “Why not?” is that “I’m just not that sophisticated.”

  19. Black Canseco wrote:

    No #1: The phrase “Rock N Roll” was originated by Black American Blues and jazz artists. Big Momma Thorton and others used to sing about being “rocked and rolled all night long.”

    Both rock n roll and jazz were originally black slang for sex.

    No#2 There’s always been a perverted notion of pseudo-sophistication by saying “racializing music”

    R&B, Jazz, Soul, Blues, and yes Hiphop are the direct offspring of Black American Culture. Without the creativity, the need of the collective to express themselves, and the desire to draw on a collective past and sense of self, these musical genres would never be.

    We would never tell Irish people that Celtic music is not Irish. We’d never tell Jews that Klezmer or Sephardi or Isreali folk music isn’t “Jewish music”any other ethnic group that the music that comes from their collective sense of self-expression isn’t theirs.

    Only with Black Americans do we play the bullshit hipster pose of de-racializing music. and “universalization”.

    What it boils down to is this: Blackness will never be acknowledged or respected as a true culture or ethnicity as long as people who are not black feel that Blackness produces something they can take and make for themselves.

    Fruit is part fruit, part rind. You can’t have one without the other. The scooping out of everything that comes out of the black experience then saying that we’re “evolving” by ignoring the outside is stupid.

    It’s a packaged deal. You want the good stuff that comes with being black, then you get the hell that comes with it.

    You want the music, you’d better acknowledge the people–not just the individuals, but the communities, the legacies, the environments. Because there is no music without all these things.

  20. Black Canseco wrote:

    just remember Justin Timberlake got to “play black” until his SuperBowl stunt with Janet, then he jumped back into his “innocent white boy” pose. the luxury JT pimped on an international stage is the same luxury countless other mainstream folks indulge in on smaller, interpersonal levels everyday.

    And the end result is “hey music has no color.”

    Long as somebody wants to take something from you and marginalize you out of it, they find a way to make it seem like you’re selfish or myopic for not going along with it.

  21. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ deb–oh no you didn’t bust out the black-bikini-brief-leg-warmers-and-trenchcoat Prince. Ab fab, friend! LOL

    Seriously though, my post about my mom not listening to Hendrix yet loving Prince isn’t so much about her being Black as it is about her racial policing ways that keep her from even *considering* listening to Hendrix. My thinking is if she can dig Prince then listening to Hendrix shouldn’t be such a jump, that’s all. As for your lack of the Jimi Hendrix Experience, all I can say to hie thee to iTunes or some music-downloading site or a record store and get some, deb. Definitely get your hands on “Are You Experienced?” It was my first exposure to his work, and I’ve been in loooove with Hendrix ever since.

    Yeah, the jazz thing: to me, jazz is such a big tent that it doesn’t require sophistication to listen to–I think that’s such a horrid misconception about the genre. (Wait, I think I hear Kai from Zuky cracking his knuckles to get ready to respond, but I’ll blow him a kiss and a give him a wink and keep going.:-D) Honestly, deb, some forms of jazz gives me a migraine, like free jazz, and even some works by some the jazz giants bore me silly. When those folks and forms turn me off, I turn on to jazz vocalists like Sarah Vaughn, Dinah Washington, Anita O’Day, Nat King Cole and his trio, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, and Cassandra Wilson. All they really require is an appreciation of the human voice…but then, I guess it’s about what catches your ear and your heart, including the tonality of voices, too.

    And since you lurve Prince, may I suggest listening to Joshua Redman’s version of “How Come U Don’t Call Me Anymore?” He’s in the “hardcore jazz” tradition, but please give it a chance. It’s pretty sexy…

  22. harrumph wrote:

    I grew up (white) in DC and discovered independent music, in a majority black city, in a pretty much exclusively white environment. People were sort of academically committed to anti-racism and diversity, but the era when there were actually black musicians active in the scene (Bad Brains, Nicky Thomas from Fire Party, I think one of Red C’s bassists . . . not really a ton of people in the first place) was long over, and I think I can count the number of non-white kids I ever even saw at shows on just my two hands. It was something that always seemed really conspicuously off to me, a source of mild discomfort and confusion. Punk is protest music, a voice for those who don’t have access to the resources and media outlets through which artistic expression is usually realized, usually committed to social justice and equality and international brotherhood — why were we just a bunch of middle- and upper-class white kids?

    I was visiting my parents this winter, around New Year’s, and went to see a show (some hardcore, some folk-punk, some jangly sing-along-y indie pop) with my little sister — a solid fifth of the kids in attendance were PoC, including a ton of girls (something else that was off in the DC scene for a long time). Still not exactly proportional for the DC metro area, but it was pretty cool to see. I couldn’t say what’s changed, but it’s really heartening. Only good things can come from the introduction of new voices and perspectives to a scene and culture that, if they’ve gotten a little stale, still have tremendous power and value at their foundations.

  23. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ Dan–”Now couldn’t be a better time for a strong black rock movement. We sorely need it.”

    Quick questions, sincerely meant: what do you think of the Black Rock Coaliton? Have you checked out Bold as Love? What do you think of the buzz around the musical “Passing Strange,” esp. since it’s been racking up the theater awards lately?

  24. Myles wrote:

    Mmm, this reminds me of Fefe Dobson, biracial Canadian, singer who fits more into the rock genre. She got a lot of the crazy, “why are you listening to this kind of music” stares growing up, too.

    And I have been in that position also. When i have a braidhawk (and it looks damn good, too) a number of people think I look cool, and that it suits me. But a large number of my black classmates stare at me like i have horribly violated their social norms. And I’ve had more than one person tell me they didn’t think I listened to “that kind” of music.

    Of course since I’m mixed (American, African & European) so I get a lot of “you don’t know ‘our’ side, you poor confused child” stares, and “I guess this is your white side, hunh?” comments.

    But my range in music is wide enough that it overlaps with most people. I just hate most popular/party rap, but then again, I hate most party rock.

    And am I the only one that wasn’t happy with Kanye West sampling “stronger?” I don’t really like what he has done with it. And I have gotten into a lot of arguments (mostly with black people) about the Daft Punk version, because they don’t believe me when I tell them that it came first.

    At least not until a white person tells them I’m right.

  25. Ki wrote:

    @ #16… I was waiting for someone to bring that up.

    I love and agree with this post, appearing “white” and listening to so much r&b and hip-hop (although I do also listen to techno, rock and other “race-appropriate” music). I’m actually mixed and my girl actually said to me this past weekend when I told her I love Chris Brown’s new song “Forever”, “that’s the white girl in you.” I laughed it off, but this post reminded me of that.

    In general, I tend to also ask, “what really makes a type of music ‘black’ or ‘white’?” But, as #16 & #19 discuss, there is a certain history that exists in certain genres. Case in point, country music - while, now, it’s “acceptable” for a non-white musician to foray into country music, there was a time when country music had a certain stigma attached to it - racist, white, and Southern (and male-dominated, but… it seems that’s always been an issue across genres).

  26. deb wrote:

    And since you lurve Prince, may I suggest listening to Joshua Redman’s version of “How Come U Don’t Call Me Anymore?” He’s in the “hardcore jazz” tradition, but please give it a chance. It’s pretty sexy…

    Hey, TheCruelSecretary! What kinda trickeration is this?! :D I’ll give it a shot. Thank U. Also, a few weeks ago, I considered downloading a Hendrix documentary. I will reconsider it now.

    Thank you Kevin for posting this!

  27. Sarah J wrote:

    Afro-Punk is an excellent movie, I highly recommend it.

    I used to feel uncomfortable buying hip-hop albums because I was white. Thankfully, I got over it.

    And it seemed for a while that every time there was a hip-hop artist with serious crossover appeal the rumors would start flying about how they hated white people. Kind of like the rumors about Obama. But anyway, it certainly feels like there’s an effort to keep music racially divided, wherever it comes from.

  28. deb wrote:

    Oh! I was also thinking about how much I wish “urban contemporary”/hip-hop radio stations would play international music.

    I can turn on the radio and hear Amerie, but not other people of Asian and African American descent like Tasha (Yoon Mi Rae) or Jero.

  29. eric daniels wrote:

    I am sorry but I grew up listening to Rock, Funk, Soul and Pop music of the 70’s (Black folks in the hood played Elton John, Queen, and Bowie 45’s ) somewhere in the late 70’s early 80’s people started to really congregate around racial music labels, I think it was the complete fragmentation of FM radio where stations played music according to the genre and wouldn’t play any other style of music.

    So what you have is a complete separation of music according to race and African- Americans in the past 30 years have been even more stratfied since the early 80’s. They used to play Funkadelic, Mother’s Finest, Mandrill, War, Betty Davis, Sly and the Family Stone, Isley Brothers and EWF “AOR&B (album-oriented Rhythm and Blues) cuts and that meant a lot of rock-oriented R&B and uncut funk tracks along with the. soul and disco of the day, but after Prince, they took on the behavoir of the white stations and played the cuts the buisness boys wanted them to play.

    Frankly if African- Americans want to be willfully igorant about their musical legacy and then get mad when Amy Winehouse or the Dap-Tones or Europeans take older black styles and make them relevant to a mass auidence then I say fine, but I am glad Bad Brains, Betty LaVette, Sharon Jones, Living Colour, Defunkft, Mother’s Finest, Cameo and other bands are getting the props they deserve in Europe and elsewhere.

    The Time blew Rhianna’s talentless butt off the stage during the Grammys that’s old skol for ya !!!

  30. Black Canseco wrote:

    Punk music started in the UK as class-warfare music. Poor white kids and lower middle class white kids in Wales, Ireland and GB railing against the monarchy and privileged class. They were influenced some by black music-specifically the blues and R&B acts that came over in the 1950s-60s.

    When Punk hit stateside in the late 70s and 80s, it hit the upper middle class white communities first. College kids and elites thought it was cool to be mad about nothing and narcissistic long as you had 2.5 chords and a loud voice.

    Groups like the Clash had enough respect for their influences not to be totally leeches unlike the Beasties, Ramones, etc.

    So much of pPunk music for the last 25 years has been “Oh My God, even us good white people aren’t immune to (insert here)?!”

  31. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ deb–”What kinda trickeration is this?!”

    Just poke a fork in me ’cause I’m *done* at that, friend. Love it!:-D

    @ Dan–oops! Here’s the Bold as Love link:
    http://boldaslove.us/

  32. RainaWeather wrote:

    You think listening to that brings accusations of acting white. Try listening to Celtic music.

    @Dan: You are right. Rock after grunge waned.

    @Black Canseco: I also agree. Rock music IS black music and that’s all there is to it. I have no problem admitting the music that I love, Celtic, was created by Celts. It’s so hard for people to give Blacks credit when credit is due.

  33. gatamala wrote:

    TCS~~ bless you for trying to convert your mom. I’ve had arguments with folks over Hendrix! The man oozed soul through and through. Have you tried just blasting it through the house?

    CG, it’s interesting that you brought up your Yugoslavian heritage. I’ve been getting into a lot of Eastern European/Balkan music lately. My black self has seen Gogol Bordello and Devotchka. I was cutting through the crowd at Devotchka on Friday…this white guy points to my black friend and says, “she’s over there.”

    *major side-eye*

    BC Only with Black Americans do we play the bullshit hipster pose of de-racializing music and “universalization”…You want the music, you’d better acknowledge the people.

    co-sign. Just because everybody’s doing it doesn’t mean that hip hop is not black (in the wider sense, Ricans, Jamaicans, BX, BK)! I have notice a concerted effort to de-black its origins and say it belongs to “everybody”. The main ones that pretend to be so “progressive” are the main ones appropriating, redefining, excluding and discarding.

  34. CG wrote:

    @ Myles - I knew that Kanye was sampling Daft, but recognizing that it was just a sample I was fairly pleased with how he used it in his song. I think it went well with his lyrics and the flow was on point. You’re not the only one though; my brother hates it and sees it as blasphemy that he would dare ruin a great Daft Punk song. lol It’s all in the interpretation of art. Can’t please everybody.

  35. superchunk12 wrote:

    The funny thing about this is that my dad taught me that all music is black music, he even tried to throw classical in there, but I wasn’t having it.

  36. Gouw wrote:

    I know this sounds like a ridiculous question, but do ya’ll think the blues have become more of a white genre of music than black? Here’s what I have to support the idea that it is

    - I can’t think of many popular recent, modern or even mainstream blues musicians that are black. Although to be truthful only John Mayer and the White Stripes are really repping blues on commercial radio
    - I’m a loser so I youtube all day and the younger people who post vids of themselves jamming to backing tracks are overwhelmingly white
    - Ever seen B.B. King, Buddy Guy, or other living blues legend live? White people outnumber all others 3 to 1 at times. I’ve been to 10 or 11 and this has always been the case, although I am of course speaking only from what I know.
    - Of the 30 or so black people that I consider friends, none listen to blues as far as I know. None. Most listen to hip-hop and R&B, with a healthy amount to jazz and classical, but even those that like jazz are purer jazz, people like Mingus and Basie who experimented in 12-bar but rarely used blues scales sticking to jazzy improvisation. Nothing heavy blues like Muddy, Sonny Boy or Johnson. Unrelatedly there are a few that I know enjoy metal and punk and such although I wouldn’t know at all because I can’t dig that genre other than Rage.

    So what do you guys think? I know blues is not nearly as popular as it has been and should be, and it seems like it is mostly carried on through white people and the rare black (partially, mostly asian though) kid like me.

  37. Gouw wrote:

    OH and to add to that last part of my comment, a lot of them I know also like soul and funk (Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye and Luther Vandross are very popular, although that’s among all people I know, unsurprisingly as they ROCK.) “But” they are “acceptable” forms of music “anyway”

  38. uu wrote:

    add to that, I’ve also heard of people coming to the conclusion that musical preference dictates what kind of people a person is attracted to. I have a co-work who is your stereotypical “whigger” (sorry to use such a term but there is no other explaination for this person). He tells a female co-worker how much he loves rap, is trying to get his rap album off the ground and loves black women. The female co-work asks him what he thinks about another white male co-worker because she was attracted to him but felt that he had a thing for “ethnic girls” (whatever that was suppose to mean…I’m guessing just non-white). He tells her that that assumption can’t be right because that male co-worker listens to and plays rock music, so its obvious he likes the white womens.

    Has anyone come across this assumption of genres of music one likes and the kinds of people they might be attracted to?

  39. HC wrote:

    No one can top me. I grew up listening to Marvin Gaye, Jimi Hendrix, Brazilian music, salsa, James Brown, Dinah Washington, the J5, Led Zep, and I’m a Chinese girl LOL.

  40. G.K. wrote:

    Just a night or so ago, me and my significant other were talking about listening to to different kinds of music, and I said that music really has no color because it is primarily sound, and that it’s only us humans (like the person who wrote the article said) who put these labels on it. Me and him even sat down one night and chilled while listening to some country music—something neither of us does too often—and spent a whole Saturday morning frying chicken amidst the sounds of a local country music station.

    As someone who grew up listening to whatever she liked on the radio, whether it was white or black music, I’ve been dealing with this issue pretty much for over half my life (I’m in my late ’30’s) especially in high school when I used to listen to a lot of heavy metal as well as R&B, and felt weird/even wondered what was wrong with me for liking this “white noise” music. After doing some major research on my own and finding out that black folks pretty much invented rock ‘n roll (having been a Jimi Hendrix fan since my teens, as far as I’m concerned,he straight-up invented heavy metal, even though the rock magazines that lionize him always stop short of saying exactly that) .

    But yeah, it dosen’t surprise me to see that over 20 years after I went through my little identity issues about whether I should even listen to rock ‘n roll because I’m black that younger foks are still going through this. The Afropunk site is the best place to talk about this issue—there’s always a lot of great discussions about these issues there:

    http://www.afropunk.com

  41. Meowser wrote:

    Kelvin, this is a great post. Have you checked out the Black Rock Coalition? They’ve been around since 1985 and were founded (to quote their Web site) “with the purpose of creating an atmosphere conducive to the maximum development, exposure and acceptance of Black alternative music. ” One of their founding members is Vernon Reid, guitarist for Living Colour. They have a My Space page and a Net radio station also.

  42. Candice wrote:

    Thank you so much for writing this article. I’m a 17 year-old mixed girl and I listen to absolutely everything. I rock out to Tchaikovsky, Jill Scott, Alice in Chains, tons of different types of music. What I have found interesting is when people will try and find out if “I’m a black mixed girl” or “a white mixed girl” by subtly asking what kind of music I listen to, which is ridiculous. In my mind, over-commercial pop music, rock or rap or hip-hop, is not something I want to listen to. So I shouldn’t put up with it just because a notion on racial tendencies dictates it.

  43. Jay wrote:

    Great Post! I think it’s rather interesting how White artists are allowed to cross all genres with relative ease (Country, Rap, R&B, Rock, etc.) while POC often are not or either met with great difficulty if they try. Where is the fairness? Last I checked we listened to music with our ears not our eyes.

    I wonder if it’s the same issue that movie makers deal with - that if a band is nonwhite then they’re often labeled “ethnic” and marketed that way.

    I mean, I listen to rock and metal and all the Asian guys in mainstream (of which there are probably less than a dozen) are the only Asians in their bands. James Iha formerly of the Smashing Pumpkins, Herman Li of Dragonforce, Hiro Yamamoto who founded Soundgarden, etc, the bands with Asians in them are indie and have a relatively confined audience - they don’t “crossover” all that much.

  44. NancyP wrote:

    Anyone get guff for liking classical music?

  45. Robert S. wrote:

    Although, I think Kelvin has a good point, his perception of the role of sterotyping in music consumption is a bit off-base. I don’t think it’s as simple as: “The stereotype that Blacks listen to only hip-hop and Whites listen to only Rock music…” He forgot to mention the pervasive “Wigger” stereotype–a white male who adopts black urban styles, slang and music tastes. It is widely known as well that white people make up the majority of hip-hop music consumption in the U.S., so Kelvin’s assessment of that stereotype doesn’t quite hold up.

    But what does that show us? It shows that white Americans–especially heterosexual men–have a wider flexibility of expressive possibilities than do people of color. There’s certainly not as much social punishment for being a white hip-hop consumer than for being a black punk kid.

  46. Lainad wrote:

    Hey ! great conversation.

    I’m working on a book on this subject right now and am looking for people who are willing to share their experiences at concerts and/ or with their family and friends who have issues with the music they listen to . if you are interested give me a shout at l.dawes5068@rogers.com.

  47. johnjihoonchang wrote:

    I have to add to this conversation:

    I think racializing music is ridiculous. Absolutely. Because if music is cut between black music and white music, what the hell am I supposed to listen to as an Asian American?

    What is my music? Am I supposed to sit around and listen to traditional folk drums and ancient Corean court music played on a dulcimer?

    It’s not like we have a whole lot (or any, really) of Asian musicians that have hit mainstream media (discounted members of larger units like Linkin Park), so if I’m supposed to listen to “my” music, do I have to import it?

    And even if I import it from my parent’s homeland, it’s still going to typically come in the form of “white music” or “black music” anyway. After all, these genres are global when it comes to popular music.

    So, yeah. Listen to whatever fits you. It’s what I do.

  48. aka lynn wrote:

    I’m a sucker for 70’s and 80’s rock. I don’t even know who today’s rap or R&B artist, but yet, I’m quite aware of my blackness.

  49. van wrote:

    Dear All,
    This is an issue that is very near and dear to my heart. I recently stumbled upon “Blink” that book by Malcolm Gladwell ( of The New Yorker fame) and read the now famous chapter 5 “Kenna’s Dilemma”. After reading the book and listening to the dude the whole chapter is about I found it so striking that something as spontaneous and arbitrary as music has been so cleanly and predictably rationed and racialized.
    NB. For those who have not read the book, Kenna is a black singer with an immigrant background who produces really “uncategorizable music” as the NPR puts it. Because of their inability to pigeonhole his music into one neat genre many radio stations-both black and white- simply ignored his work ( and hence Kenna’s dilemma). For those interested, I would also advise checking out a review of his latest album at Pitchfork.com which I found patronizing and really telling of the state of affairs-how race intersects with music.

  50. parlance wrote:

    Thank you for this. Black, musically stuck in the 80s, all too familiar with the fandom-of-one scenario.

    NancyP, I got guff all the time when I was a kid.

  51. CVT wrote:

    I am a middle school teacher, and I am currently facilitating a Race, Ethnicity , and Gender class (specifically looking at media representations).

    The first activity I did this term involved compiling a 16-song cd full of music in which the wrong “race” was singing or performing for a specific genre (i.e. Asian hip hop, an all black female classical quartet, white bluesmen, black death metal, Arab candy-pop, etc.). The kids had to listen to each song and then guess the race and gender of the singer.

    Needless to say, the kids got every single one wrong - and it caused them to get mad at me for rigging it like that. But it also sparked a GREAT conversation as to why the game was “rigged,” and why they were so sure of the race of singers without even seeing them.

    It also gave me a lot of “Really!???” moments as I searched for black country singers, Asian metal, etc. and FOUND THEM. Relatively easily. They’re all out there - it’s just what gets radio or video play that makes us believe that’s how it ought to be . . . Pretty sad, really.

  52. Black Canseco wrote:

    Racialized Music pisses me off. My whole family is from Mississippi. Everyone from Cab Calloway and Duke Ellington to Big Momma Thorton to Bessie Smith to Chubby Checker got labeled as “race music”.

    Why?

    Because radio stations didn’t want to play black artists.

    Why?

    Because whites wanted the music but not the people–hence the popularity of white artists who “covered” black artists with no credit, compensation or acknowledgement such as: Pat Boone, Elvis, The Dorsey Brothers (white big band legends who ripped off every black jazzman imaginable, including Ellingotn and Basie.)

    Today, it’s the “universalism” thing. “I listen to ‘everything’ therefore I can play/co-opt etc.

    The when somebody black says, hey that’s “black music” the notion of “hey this comes from our community and it’s bigger than just memorizing a baseline, some lyrics or playing an instrument” they’re met with, “get over it.”

    What happens when the communities, backstories and cultures and people are completely skinned out of the music?

    There’s a difference between listening to something, enjoying it and insinuating yourself into it just because you think you can or should.

    As it is, blacks are marginalized out of the history of Jazz with few notable exceptions.

    Anyone can sing blues, soul, etc.

    And when in doubt, just assume that black people don’t want to play rock/insert-here as the convenient explanation for the lack of representation.

    nothing easier than assuming black folks voluntarily threw a genre aside–makes ripping into it a lot more guilt-free.

  53. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Mmm, this reminds me of Fefe Dobson, biracial Canadian, singer who fits more into the rock genre. She got a lot of the crazy, “why are you listening to this kind of music” stares growing up, too.”

    Everytime I met another black fan of alternative music during the short time when she was MTV’s BFF, we’d invariably complain about how disappointing her music was. Growing up, I was taught that all American-origin music was strongly connected to “black music” by my father, who likes everything from Zeppelin (he saw them live and according to him, it was akin to a religious experience) to Emmylou Harris to Neil Diamond, to Yo-Yo Ma, to more conventional black people fare. As a result, I didn’t know that anything was wrong with my musical interests until I disclosed them to my classmates at my majority black school… on the other hand, I’ve heard some… interesting attitudes from rock fans, as well… namely a strong identification with the percieved whiteness of the fanbase and the present-day artists that is facilitated by profound historical amnesia — an embracing of the genre, in part, as a backlash against the popularity of hip-hop among their peers… i.e. “I’m not trying to be something I’m not, I don’t listen to that hip-hop crap!” In short, a belief that rock music is indeed “white music”… thankfully, I’ve never had any blatant “what are you doing here” experiences yet.

  54. Claudia wrote:

    @Black Canseco

    Great points about the class-background of punk rock, the JT/superbowl incident, and ‘racializing’ of music. Music, like any other cultural form that comes from a racialized society, is inherently racialized. White people in hip hop and black people in classical are both given a hard time… but for very different reasons, that have everything to do with the histories of those musical forms. I think of music, like food, as a canary in a coal mine of sorts for society… when lines get drawn in the sand about certain types of food or music and who is supposed to enjoy them or not, we need to start looking at where and what those issues are coming out of. And remember where and when in history ‘appropriation’ happened and who was involved.

  55. Kelvin wrote:

    Hey All,

    Fantastic posts all round and I’m happy to have gotten a conversation going here. Some folks have brought up nice points which I intend to address when I wake up 6 hours from now.

    @Black Canseco - I totally agree with you on your point which basically is about the origins of certain music. The main thrust of my article however is that personal preference should not be tied to the originating culture. That way, a Black kid from the Bronx could enjoy music by Enya even though he is not Celtic or Irish. I’m in no way attempting to strip away the origins of anyone’s musical expressions.

    @ The folks who brought up the item on “wiggers”. I think this is all part of the cultural conditioning I talked about. Too some non-black folks, acting black entails wearing baggy jeans and using slangs because that seems to be the image pushed most of the time. In my travels around the world though, I have noticed it in other places as well. In my opinion, most of the images of African Americans that people around the world see are in rap videos and gangster movies. A random 17 Year old kid on the streets of Berlin is more likely to know who Snoop Dogg is but if you ask that same kid who Barrington Irving is I’m sure that kid won’t know. I’ll add more but I need to get some shut eye.

    @All my non black folks

    Sorry that the article was not as inclusive as it could’ve been. I did not mean to shut anyone out.

  56. Kendra wrote:

    @Ki: You’re not alone. I didn’t like the Kanye collab with Daft Punk either. I don’t like Kanye in general and I only listen to a few of his songs. He’s much too offensive and self-serving in my opinion . . . so yeah. But I happen to like a few of his songs since certain beats are attractive. This isn’t uncommon of course; sometimes the music is more attractive than the artist, even if it is all just a facade. I absolutely love Daft Punk, though. I would love to see them in concert. I even have a copy of their “Discovery” CD and Interstella 5555. Gotta love the Leji Matsumoto connections. ^^

  57. sfsinger wrote:

    Can we be friends? I definitely felt ‘weird’ for forging my own path in developing my music tastes because I felt I was breaking some unspoken code. One of my younger cousins recently said that it wasn’t about race it’s about quality. I would also agree that it is a decidedly American pastime of racial polarization. When I was in high school I was more into Depeche Mode, Joy Division and other British acts than the pop and r&b, though I always tried to make a point to listen to everything. I am also a musician so it’s important to listen to all genres. Anyway thanks to a robust concert season I’ve bought tickets for the following shows: Yelle, Goldfrapp, Robyn, Adele, M.I.A., Erykah Badu. I need concert buddies though cuz I want to go see Tina Turner.

  58. Adrianna wrote:

    I’m back home in Haiti ! and it’s hell cause I can’t youtube and listen to my fav songs. Here all the TV sation is crappy rap all the time. It’s sad because the Haitian rap stars are imitating the crappy commercialized rap music, Even the the videos are poor imitations with young Haitian Girls shaking their ass for the young men. Everyone here is a wannabe gangsters , because that’s the crap they see on TV.

    I’m a young Black women. I have been put in to many boxes and rigid categories all my life. Nowadays I don’t give a damn no more .
    I love all music , cause that how I was raised myself. to embrace everything! I discovered rock, punks New wave when i moved to the US and a lot of other genres. All i can say is that I’m forever in love . I Don’t care what people think. If it good It’s on my playlist. Off course it can’t be sexist racist and Homophobic and all other kind of isms.

    Just the other Day I heard that a bunch of Homophobic Caribbean Artist Have been dropped from having their album released world wide because of the Homophobic crap they say in their music. So no to buju banton and his Ilk!

    My favorite group right no is a duo called Elysian Fields

    Jenifer Charles voice is like liquid sex! Check out her collabaration with Mike patton and Dan the Automator under the name Lovage

    Telepopmusik and Andrea Mcklusky are also a tight collabo !

  59. jayspark wrote:

    i hear everybody
    and i fully agree…but as black people (and originators of a lot of musical genres)

    i feel that ‘our’ music is getting appropriated by others and adopted by others for a good reason

    its sad to see what the originators of a genre can do it!

    Souljah Boy, and other ignorant ‘rappers’ are a good example of why rap should get appropriated!!!!

    its a pity that singers and rappers like Amy Winehouse, Atmosphere, Robin Thick, Blueprint, and Duffy, have to step in and show us how to play our OWN music!

    better stolen and saved, than kept and misbehaved

  60. bdsista wrote:

    CG I’ll go to a concert with you anytime! But fureal that last rap Cd I bought was Queen Latifah and Will Smith and a collection of Public Enemy.
    I got tickets to James Taylor’s concert tonight in VA Beach! Yayyy! It totally confuses whites and blacks that I rant about diversity and racism all the time, but my fav artist is Sweet Baby James! Oh and my Scarlett O’Hara Barbie collection on display at my house along with the Egyptian perfume bottles, English tea cups and Native American, Asian and African American Art all over my house! Each room has a theme! Except the African and Asian stuff is in the living room along with the Delta paraphernalia cuz I didn’t have space anywhere else.
    Musically love, R & B Old skool, Jazz (all of it), Johnny Mathis, Carol King, Queen, have an entire rack of Musical soundtracks, another of Gospel and a bunch of classical, latin and oh yeah since I’m a bellydancer, have an entire CD rack of Middle Eastern music which really trips people out. Ride with me and you will hear the changer go from Donna Summer to Hakim to Nancy Ajram to LTD to EWF to MJ and Janet to Eric Gillam (Hawaiian fusion-courtesy of my hula friends) to the Evita soundtrack to Chorus Line to Kirk Franklin to Peabo to Kem to Kansas to Chicago to Jesus Christ Superstar (I prepare for court cases with that music!) to Incognito to Peter Tosh to Peter Frampton to……… I think you get the message.

  61. deb wrote:

    have an entire CD rack of Middle Eastern music which really trips people out

    Awesome! I was checking out bellydance music at calabashmusic.com the other day. :)

    I love Yma Sumac’s “Mambo!” CD. (I guess it’s an acquired taste.) I don’t think my family and friends would appreciate it. I’m betting a few folks here might, though.

  62. Kelvin wrote:

    @deb

    I discovered Lebanese pop a few weeks ago at a hookah (sp) bar. It was the sweetness.

    @Sfsinger

    Of course we can be friends :-)

    I’m looking to get tickets for Coldplay in June.

    @Adrianna
    Telepopmusik is the bombdiggity.

    @Kendra

    I think I’m probably one of the few Electronica/House heads that liked Kanye’s “Stronger”. I know it does not measure up to “Better Stronger Faster” at all but I was happy enough that Daft Punk gave their blessings to the song.

  63. bellatrys wrote:

    That’s funny (in a sad way) because here in 90+ % white NH, hip-hop is everywhere and listened to more by white kids (same with rap) with or without affectation of “black” culture (mass-produced, pop versions of same, hokey bling, etc) while the increasingly-diverse ethnic community here listens to all sorts of things. It’s kind of surprising to see a car going down the road playing rap or hip-hop loudly and have a black driver - more usually it’s rock, or salsa, or middle-eastern, or…

    But our black community is itself (increasinly) diverse: largely divided between Latino heritage and recent African immigrants, so it makes sense.

    (Myself, I caught flack as a white kid for unfashionable music - I liked folk and classical and Celtic and Turkish, how DARE I not worship Aerosmith or the Bee Gees?!?! What kind of foreign unAmerican wretch was I, preferring the Chieftains? Same old, same old, everywhere…)

  64. gatamala wrote:

    jayspark~I see what you’re saying, but I don’t think it’s black folk not doing, but mainstream success being granted to white folks who do something similar (as Black Canseco said).

    You brought up Wino, I submit Sharon Jones & the Dap Kings. Google her, listen and LOOK AT HER and tell me why she’s not on the (mainstream) air. We’ve always been there doing the damn thing.

    BC brought up Big Mama Thornton, listen to her Hound Dog & compare to Elvis.

    Nancy~ Anyone get guff for liking classical music?

    My dad’s favorite music is classical (Dvorak) I am trying to get into it myself. My friends used to give me shit when I was younger.

  65. lemure wrote:

    This is definitely a hot button topic for me. I’m a child of the 80’s -90’s the golden age of hip hop and grew up in Brooklyn. I remember when EVERYTHING was on the radio, I listened to House music at night and used to buy limelight mixtapes, particularly for the technolicious Future Shock parties. My parents are Caribbean but on top of old kaiso, calypso, soca, and parang, my father was a big fan of Credence Clearwater and my mom of the Beatles. Yet when I got to highschool, no matter how many dancehall dances I knew and albums I owned, I got so much flack for my imported drum and bass vinyl and mixtapes and my love of new wave bands, early punk and U2. Hell, I was even asked “Don’t you like any Black music?” Luckily I was informed enough to let people know, it IS Black music! I heard the rhythms of my ancestors in many of the genres I love. In college, my love of alternative got me a few side eyes by some white and black folks, but I managed to find a few friends, my dancehall loving ROTC Greek male nursing student friend from Queens , my Chamoaran 300 lb flaming raving partner who worshiped dance music, my Czech earth mother pal who knew all the words to Tori Amos and Pixie songs, and my South Asian pop loving twosome among others.

    I’m better off now as an adult, because I’m old enough to go into clubs and was a promoter, there are plenty of Black people (usually Caribbean & African) and diverse people period who don’t feel the need to be boxed by musical labels. Hey, I love music (in its many permutations) that my s.o. is a techno/house dj and music producer and my side hustle is music director for a magazine.

    Donna Summer, Gangstarr, Peter Tosh, Bono, Sammy Davis Jr., Underworld, Kate Bush, Iggy Pop, Commix, whatever man, it all comes from love to me. No need to limit oneself!

  66. Kei wrote:

    I am a Black girl with a lifelong love affair with electronica, and I was made to feel a bit embarrassed about it until I discovered a few years back that House has deep roots in the Black (and gay) communities of Chi-town (and DC? Correct me if I’m wrong!), and techno is rooted in Detroit. Drum and bass is heavily reggae and dancehall influenced and developed by diverse groups of people in the UK and across the pond.

    Speaking of Daft Punk, they sample 70s and 80s R&B like crazy. http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/news/46335-daft-punk-sample-material-collected-on-new-cd (And yes, I still like them.) So basically Kanye’s Stronger is like a sample-sandwich.

    OMG, Deb, I’m so glad you mentioned Jero. He’s so popular that if you look up Enka on Youtube, Jero’s videos come up first.

  67. Karl wrote:

    Music is intimately tied into race, and while your choice of music does not necessarily say anything about your racial background (or aspirations given some of yall), the birth of the music you listen to, it’s history, and the music’s arc (past, present, future marketing, sound, innovations) are highly racialized and always have been. To ignore this fact, imho, is what makes telling blacks with certain out of the accepted musical proclivities “you’re trying to act white etc” 100 percent valid.

    Notice how in the entire article, poster said nothing about the fact that rock etc where originally black musical forms before being whitewashed and mass marketed (stolen). Same goes for house music etc (bottom line, if at the time of creation of said musical form, they called it n***er music and banished it to the end of the dial- it can be called black music). Also, notice how the author couldn’t refrain from pissing on “hip hop” while expressing her/his love of other “music” (the same can be said about most of the people in the comments section). Lastly, notice the nicely white/backpacker selection of fav “hip hop” artists….nuff said…

  68. Karl wrote:

    “its a pity that singers and rappers like Amy Winehouse, Atmosphere, Robin Thick, Blueprint, and Duffy, have to step in and show us how to play our OWN music!

    better stolen and saved, than kept and misbehaved”

    I mean honestly, can you read something like that and not see the pathology? It cant be our “own” music, if we don’t “own” it in any way shape or form. Hell, what do any of you even know about any of these forms of music to begin with? Or the fact that most of the degradation of the black musical form was intimately linked to the growth of the black middle/upper classes and the whitewashing and debasement of black musical forms has always been accomplished in said manner (resistance from the integrated blk/colored upper class- claims that it is low class/garbage/makes us look bad in front of whites etc, then should white interest be peaked in music, those same people are the ones flocking to work as musical tour guides (a & r’s etc) profiting over a watered down, useless version of the very music they hated to begin with)…

    and i stand 110 percent by the stating that black punk rockers ( not blacks who listen to the music but the blacks in the lifestyle scene-which in its most outward manifestations is blindingly white) are in deed trying to act/be white.

  69. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    *notes Karl’s comments, blows the dust off a shelved post on hip-hop and the concept of appropriation, and resumes writing.*

  70. Karl wrote:

    dusted off- maybe so, but no less valid…

  71. DivergentDana wrote:

    “and i stand 110 percent by the stating that black punk rockers ( not blacks who listen to the music but the blacks in the lifestyle scene-which in its most outward manifestations is blindingly white) are in deed trying to act/be white.”

    Please explain.

  72. AC wrote:

    Kelvin, SFSinger, Deb and Lemure - I wanna hang with you!!! SFSinger, I’ll go to Tina with you.

    But seriously Kelvin, on point to your post: I’m not convinced it is completely a function of the media that racializes music. I believe it is “we” ( all of us) who racialize music and some of “us” work in the media and media fringes and carry that bias forward.

    My parents are from the West Indies and Canada and I grew up listening to Motown, Clapton, Hendrix (actually grew up down the road from his gravesite), all manner of jazz, orchestra, calypso, country, and *gasp* opera. All of which inspired me to start playing the violin at a young age.

    Contrary to one commentators observation I am a middle class black who grew up in a extremely predominiately white semi-rural environment. While I did get some flack from my older brother (which I paid him back by “tainting” our younger siblings with my obvious defect of open-mindedness) it wasn’t until I got to college and met a larger black community that I came under fire for my musical tastes.

    Luckily I stayted true to myself despite enormous pressure to listen to “black music”. Plenty of other commentators have commented on the utter ridiculousness and fallacy of such beliefs I don’t need to add to it.

    We need to stop boxing and labeling ourselves, doing so limits us. Power to you all for living outside of the “box”.

  73. Winn wrote:

    Anyone thinking that racial balkanization is over need only jump across the pond and check out the reaction to the venerable Glastonbury Festival naming Jay-Z as a headliner this year. It took about five seconds for the opposition to this to become racialized, from Noel Gallagher of Oasis saying that hip hop had no place at Glastonbury with it’s “tradition of guitar music” (conveniently forgetting headlining gigs by artists like Bjork, Basement Jaxx, Moby and The Chemical Brothers, none of whom can be characterized as “guitar music”), to commenters on the NME message board fearing what sort of “thuggish” crowd Jay-Z might attract to the festival (WTF! I’ve been to Glastonbury. It’s an outdoor festival, and when you combine mugginess, heat, mud, insects, alcohol, and general loutishness, there’s plenty of lily-white thuggishness to go around, with or without hip hop!), to other commenters wondering why can’t those hip hop artists get their own festival, to others suggesting that the problem is not rap, it’s Jay-Z himself, with his drug dealer past and his materialistic focus on “bling” (have these people only seen one jay-Z video ever?) and a more “acceptable” rap artist should have been found, like The Roots, Jurassic 5, Roots Manuva, Dizzee Rascal, etc. Slow Glastonbury ticket sales have been blamed on Jay-Z, rather than exorbitant ticket prices, bad weather, lame co-headliners (a reunited Verve? Kings of Leon? Really?), overpriced merch, oversaturation of artists (same artists booked at smaller, cheaper festivals as well), etc. However much we try to think we have moved beyond this kind of crap, it continues to manifest and remind us that the world of indie rock isn’t as inclusive as it would like to believe. As DivergentDiva noted, some cling to indie rock as a bastion against all this hip hop and r & b cross-pollination, a safe haven for hipsters who hold “ironic” ghetto parties and read mags like Vice magazine.

    I appreciate the increasing diversity at the concerts I go to, although in my personal experience we are still small enough to feel comfort and recognition when we see each other across the aisles at Dresden Dolls, Muse, Deathcab for Cutie, Vampire Weekend, or whomever. I’m perfectly comfortable with my musical preferences, and unashamed to mix up genres and defy conventions with impunity. But I’m also not naive enough to believe that everyone else is as ready to welcome me as I am to explore, investigate and embrace them. Unfortunately, some would be much more comfortable if we all stayed in our proscribed, allocated racial boxes.

  74. Kelvin wrote:

    @Karl
    Also, notice how the author couldn’t refrain from pissing on “hip hop” while expressing her/his love of other “music”

    I think you are seeing what you want to see. I have not pissed on hip hop in any way shape of form. If you read on, you’ll note that I wrote that folks will like what they like. I’m not one of the naive ones who attributes negatives to the entire hip hop genre. If you’ll notice, I added the word “commercial”. That is there for a purpose. Personally, I listen to some hip hop but I’m in no way a hip hop person. I don’t have to bash hip hop to build up the genres I like. If you are looking to call me out for ignoring the the appropriation of music then you’re barking up the wrong tree Karl. That is not what the article is about.

    And just to re-iterate, this is not a piss on hip hop at all. I like certain hip hop acts (I’ve been a fan of Timbaland, Missy, Magoo and that crew for years) but I’m not just in tune with the popular stuff out now and that’s it. I hope that clears that issue. Cheers!

  75. Kelvin wrote:

    @Karl

    “Music is intimately tied into race, and while your choice of music does not necessarily say anything about your racial background (or aspirations given some of yall), the birth of the music you listen to, it’s history, and the music’s arc (past, present, future marketing, sound, innovations) are highly racialized and always have been. To ignore this fact, imho, is what makes telling blacks with certain out of the accepted musical proclivities “you’re trying to act white etc” 100 percent valid.”

    ORLY? I was going to argue this point but then I read the last sentence and that gave me the insight into your perspective I needed. You DO NOT have the right to label anyone as “acting white” for their taste in “other” music or almost anything in life. I hope I don’t need to explain why you don’t have the right. Cheers!

  76. femaleperson wrote:

    On Sunday, in our house, there’d be The Dixie Hummingbirds and the Rev. James Cleveland, Shirley Caesar, Andrae Crouch and so on on the radio. On Monday, while getting ready for school, I’d listen to The Beatles (still my favorite band). On the way to school, my version of Otto the Bus Driver would play Led Zep and Foreigner on his transistor. And the streets of my neighborhood were wafting with old-core R&B from some neighbors, brand new rap jams from others on Saturday afternoons. Solid Gold came on at 6p, so there was fun stuff like Culture Club and Duran Duran. Among my first concerts was REM when Michael Stipe had long, curly hair, and Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark.

    I may have been the only POC at those gigs, but no one’s bothered me at a show to this day, and I’ve enjoyed the shows I’ve gone to (ended up meeting REM at a gig, too - yippee!). One my best concert experiences was bodysurfing in a mosh pit at a Regurgitator show in Sydney a few years ago. w00t!

    These days, I’ve been concerned that I’m getting too old to go to shows, but I’ll get over that as well, I suspect. I’m usually one of a handful of POCs at any given show of a band I like, or for a lot of other things; for example, I went to see Michael Palin from Monty Python give a Q&A last year and I was the only POC at the venue who wasn’t working the door.

    Life is too short to allow other people to tell me that what I like is wrong. I still know who I am, and my shade of skin doesn’t comprise my entire being. People must allow themselves agency to be themselves. When I’ve been asked about bands I like, I told the truth - and I still do. I like a lot of different types of music. And then, as now, if people looked to crack on my tastes when I mentioned rock music, my response was, “Yeah, and I still love The Beatles.” And then I shrugged. What can anyone say to a shrug?

    All this stuff about what people “should” listen to is a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. I’m well aware that if a cop wanted to stop me for breathing-on-his-streets-while-beige, he isn’t going to care that my favorite Beatle is John Lennon; but if listening to John Lennon makes me happy, then who is anyone to say I’m a traitor for doing so?

  77. Karl wrote:

    “I hope I don’t need to explain why you don’t have the right. Cheers!”

    How can i not have the right to perceive someone as I wish, and I can label someone based on my perception of their motives behind a lifestyle choice etc… aside from that point, are you arguing with the statement that the creation of a music (it’s sound, subject matter, etc, as well as marketing and associated trappings -i.e. the music is listened to while doing…or in places such as…has concerts in…adherents -fanatics- wear etc….) is not racially constructed? If so, how can this be possible in a country with an equally racialized country etc? I mean how is one not acting white, if they follow a defiantly white scene (not just listen to in this case, given comments regarding extreme hairstyle changes etc- i.e. I can listen to reggae all I want, but if I decide to get dreads due to my affinity for the music, I am, even if superficially, attempting to connect with the producers of and subject matter contained within the music and scene….)?

    I mean, am I really supposed to waste my time trying to figure out if the doc martin wearing, shaved head having, red suspender wearing white cat stomping my direction is an anti-racist skin or the run of the mill variety? Alternatively, if there is no serious movement or voice for said non-white person in a musical (or social activity/scene) and the music they listen to is intimately tied to whiteness (subject matter- and not just the overt OI varietie) and often times openly hostile to the participation of non-whites in the scene (outside of the token/sexual sense of course) what is said person of color trying to do or be, other than white (as depicted by the scene and society’s perception of said scene) when they become enmeshed in the musical scene/musical message?

  78. Karl wrote:

    Again, the issue here is not listening to a type of music, most everyone has musical tastes, that in some way or another spans musical genres (i.e. shelf in which particular music can be purchased in your record store)- that’s the nature of the beast given the give and take between genres and the pandering to society’s tastes. What I am discussing here is more than simply listening to a given music but enmeshing oneself in the musical scene, particularly in scenes that are not the mainstream version of a given musical genre (big difference between cats thumping Fuck the Middle East and those playing What’s My Age Again- the same with the nature of the concerts etc).

  79. DivergentDana wrote:

    “music they listen to is intimately tied to whiteness”

    In what way? (as you said, sans “racialist” music…)

  80. Kelvin wrote:

    @Karl

    I’m glad you believe what you believe. Good for you. We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Do you have any other things to add about the article?

    You are 100% right when you say you can label people and I should have chosen my words more carefully. We all have rights to do many things like label people and also ignore the people who are doing the labeling. Cheers!

  81. lunanoire wrote:

    Re: “black” American music
    This extends to the arts as well, but I am sick of hearing poor artists receive praise for self-expression while making a dollar out of 15 cents. How about getting other 85 cents, metaphorically speaking?

  82. Niko wrote:

    Hey Karl, I’m just wondering, because where I used to live there was a lot of musical diversity (whatever that means), and I’ve met black rockers– punk, indie, or otherwise, who used their music to speak about specifically black issues, much in the same way that some hip hop artists do. What about them? Are they still acting white? Or just using a specific musical medium that speaks to them? I mean…in my majority white college I’ve met a (surprising) number of black punk kids (mostly girls) who completely subscribe to the punk scene (appearance, attitude and otherwise) and can relate punk messages to issues about black power. I think people use whatever is meaningful to them. For example, When I asked my west african family members why they like country so much, they said it sounds familiar to them. I personally would love to see more black kids in rock music. It would certainly dispel the myth that music belongs to races.

    “i.e. I can listen to reggae all I want, but if I decide to get dreads due to my affinity for the music, I am, even if superficially, attempting to connect with the producers of and subject matter contained within the music and scene….)”

    I generally find it quite easy to connect with most white musicians, as most of them tend to sing about universal and/or broad subject matter like love, loss, happiness, passion etc. Sometimes my problems are exactly the ones described by white musicians. So what’s the problem if I decide to grow a braided beard like that dude from Anthrax because I feel like he gets me and speaks to me and whatnot? I mean, you know, I can’t grow a beard because I’m a lady and that anthrax guy was the first person I thought of with a memorable look, but you get my point.

    Furthermore, I think many of the young black women I met who were into rock were raised in the suburbs where they might have more exposure to rock music. Meaning that they just weren’t socialized the way a lot of black kids who like hip hop were, so it’s not even a fair comparison. It doesn’t make them less black, it just makes them suburban black folks. Which is great, yet another group of black people to add to the black people spectrum.

    Although, I do agree, that the subject of white musicians’ music is often racialized in its subject matter, even if unintentionally, because some issues just don’t make sense if you’re a person of color. I can’t think of an example right now, but I could if I though hard enough.

    Additionally, I have to say that the argument that because white music is founded on what I assume you believe is a white history of racism and rejection of black people is kinda ridiculous for two reasons. The first and most obvious being that you can very easily trace the origins of rock to folks like Ray Charles and Chuck Berry. The second being that I don’t know where you live, but I live in the US, and being that I’m a person of color, I would have to reject everything that racist people were ever apart of. Which is craziness. Because a lot of people were really racist for a really long time and a long the way, invented some really cool shit. Like Anthropology. Arguably the most racist discipline ever, it was founded solely for the purpose of explaining why everybody except for white people were savages. But here I am, studying anthro. Some things were founded on racist institutions, for sure, and that shouldn’t be overlooked, but if you can take something like that and make it your own then you’ve done something really important.

  83. Niko wrote:

    Yikes. That was really long. Sorry. I just get a little defensive when people start revoking other folks’ ethnic memberships.

  84. Adrianna wrote:

    @KelvinTelepoppmusik should Do a James Bond Song . Their song” Love can damage your Health” would be fantastic!

    Sharon Jones, Alice smith , Jamelia Miss Dynamyte, , RES and this list could goes on do’nt get much love on the chart,because the music industry is still sexist and racist. Mostly it is the crap and what Music exec want that go Mainstream.

    How do you explain Rihanna being on top of the charts ! The girl has nice songs ,but she can’t sing .

    There is also the fact that these lady are not fitting the image of Sexist and racist mainstream music. Why is it that Beyonce gets more play than Kelly Rowland or that Alicia keys,Amy Winehouse, Duffy, Adele get more play than Sharon Jones or Chrisette Michelle or Janelle Monae. That get more play than all the other Black Soul Songstresses.

    If Nina Simone or Aretha Franklin were coming out today, would fall on the wayside.

    All the top Black female singer Have a certain look: Blond and Blonder or Light skin.

    Big Mama Thorton and Sister Rosetta Tharpe got their song stolen and Got no airplay , because of that.

    I have no Problem with Non Black people playing black music as long as it is well done and not wrongly appropriated.

    Music transcends race, just like food!

  85. Ya-g wrote:

    i ma brown girl born in Kazakhstan, but i alwayz wanted to live in the USA coz i love this country.
    I like listenin’ to rock of 80′ but never punk rock. i like disco of 80′ , pop 80′, hip-hop 80′, jazz, funk and heavy funk, i like gansta rap too. i m rap-girl and i dont really like this sound of modern hip-hop songs, coza prefer an old school rap. i like groove and reggy a lil bit. but i really like the music USA doin’ yea i do but i think that now music is a lot more worth than it was in 90′ and 80′. i like this song “California love” by 2pac and “West Coast poplock”, very close thing to 2pac’ one.

  86. Black Canseco wrote:

    “…if you can take something like that and make it your own then you’ve done something really important.”

    and therein lies the rub.

    the flipside of this reasonably noble thought is: “everything is for the taking.”

    And depending on who’s doing the taking, it’ll get taken, abused, used, and discarded.

    I can listen to Chieftans without losing sleep over why Celtic/Irish music isn’t “universal”. I can accept that it comes from a specific experiential, cultural and artistic background that i as a black american am not apart of.

    I don’t need to “own it”. I don’t need to “make it mine”. I don’t need to figure out how i fit into it. I don’t need to “validate it.”

    I’ll either enjoy it and respect it and embrace the communities and people who create it, or i won’t.

    Unfortunately, the same consideration simply isn’t afforded to black music. never has and never will.

  87. Black Canseco wrote:

    Huddy “Leadbelly” Leadbetter had no value until Curt Cobain said he liked him. John lee Hooker had no relevance until the RollingStones co-signed him. Nina Simone and Josephine Baker had little worth until the French deemed them worthy. Jimi Hendrix wasn’t accepted in America until English kids said he was cool.

    There’s a certain hatred at work, when someone/something is forced to first be valued by outsiders in order to have any value at all.

  88. gatamala wrote:

    if there is no serious movement or voice for said non-white person in a musical (or social activity/scene) and the music they listen to is intimately tied to whiteness (subject matter- and not just the overt OI varietie) and often times openly hostile to the participation of non-whites in the scene (outside of the token/sexual sense of course) what is said person of color trying to do or be, other than white (as depicted by the scene and society’s perception of said scene) when they become enmeshed in the musical scene/musical message?

    No serious movement…did you not see the Afro-punk link up top?

    As the subject matter is rather broad (like all music) I fail to see how blacks (Asians, Latins, Native Americans, the world) can’t relate at some point.

    So blacks can only be “enmeshed” in one scene? Which scene is that? The one with 5,000 white kids screaming at 5 dimes? The one with T-pain screaming into a Holmes fan?

    Hostility? Try having tits at certain parades or concerts…where the folks look like you…

    You need to seriously go learn the history of punk, hell music in general.

    Your attempts to shove blacks into a box says a lot more about your comfort level than about the kid with Docs (I own a few pairs). Try defining yourself, instead of letting others define you.

  89. Kelvin wrote:

    @ Adrianna

    Telepopmusik would do an awesome JB cover.
    I’ve been giving the “Angel Milk” album a good listen over and I just love how smooth Telepopmusik is.

    @Everyone
    I did some product placement for Kaskade big time in my article because I’m a die hard fan. I’m curious to find out if there are any other Kaskade fans out there.

  90. Tamiko wrote:

    This is an argument that I have DAILY it seems! I always get the “eyeroll” whenever I put on any of the music that I like around my friends/family! They even go so far as to argue over who will have to ride with me in the car and who won’t because they don’t want to listen to my “crazy” music! Just to annoy them while we were on vacation, I played nothing but screaming Emo music!

    Since I got so tired of my Black card being threatened whenever I turned on Stone Temple Pilots, Coldplay, Tool or Keith Urban, I gladly gave it back. If my world has to be that small to still be Black, then I’ll gladly be something else.

  91. erin wrote:

    I am an afropunk a person who likes other types of music besides the so called norm. I am also into heavy metal so I pretty much on left field.

  92. Black Canseco wrote:

    As a black male who grew up listening to black music–which included Fishbone and Bad Brains the one thing i noticed about the AfroPunk/Black Rock movement:

    Black Punkers only seem to accepted by punk mainstream when they check “black” at the door. You almost have to pretend that your ethnicity is non-existent. which is ironic given that if any group knows about marginalization and alienation and deep–rooted anger, it’s black Americans.

    Bad Brains and Fishbone and even M.O.P. just don’t get the acceptance and love from hardcore types that their white counterparts do, and neither do their followers.

  93. Karl wrote:

    “I’m just wondering, because where I used to live there was a lot of musical diversity (whatever that means), and I’ve met black rockers– punk, indie, or otherwise, who used their music to speak about specifically black issues, much in the same way that some hip hop artists do. What about them? Are they still acting white? Or just using a specific musical medium that speaks to them?”

    The latter in the above case…using a specific medium that speaks to them…

    “You need to seriously go learn the history of punk, hell music in general.

    Your attempts to shove blacks into a box says a lot more about your comfort level than about the kid with Docs (I own a few pairs). Try defining yourself, instead of letting others define you.”

    Firstly, I am well aware of the history of punk and already went through the link at the top of the bloody page…

    “So blacks can only be “enmeshed” in one scene? Which scene is that? The one with 5,000 white kids screaming at 5 dimes? The one with T-pain screaming into a Holmes fan?”

    Which would be the same 5000 white kids screaming at your punk concerts or what have you…you’re point being? The purpose of bringing up 50 cent and T-pain? So should I then be equally extreme and hence fourth make Screwdriver synonymous with punk and discuss “blacks” at said concerts? I made a very simple point…if you listen to music that is predominately white, talks to predominately white concerns (someone above said they talk about universal concerns - think about that link - universal=neutral=normal=white), and have dress/acting patterns based on a white scene and white trend setters in said scene (spare me the fairy tales about multi-culti skins in working class england in a galaxy and time far far away) then you are attempting to act white by putting that suit on….A white kid at a Wu-Tang concert is not trying to act “black” because he likes the music, he is, however, if he starts getting all “malibu’s most wanted” - clothes/ridiculous slang etc/WOC/MOC on the arm- what do you think the person is trying to do? What would you call that behavior?

    Let’s try this from another angle then…what is the ethnic background of the people dated by these “only listening to music I like/don’t put me in a box” punk/alternative POC dating? The majority of their friends/colleagues? Generally speaking? Nuff Said.

    “Has anyone come across this assumption of genres of music one likes and the kinds of people they might be attracted to?”

    Read the following:
    “I think many of the young black women I met who were into rock were raised in the suburbs where they might have more exposure to rock music. Meaning that they just weren’t socialized the way a lot of black kids who like hip hop were, so it’s not even a fair comparison.”

    What does said “excuse” or “explanation” sound like, rather where else do you find the above formula?

    “Hostility? Try having tits at certain parades or concerts…where the folks look like you…”

    LOL…that train is never late, now is it? What am I supposed to say to the above comment? What was it’s purpose? Am i then supposed to say, yeah, the punks I’ve seen arent a bunch of racist misogynists because, I don’t know, you went to a concert that had black people in it and, gasp, had a bad incident with someone?

  94. harrumph wrote:

    What about people involved in punk scenes that aren’t majority white? Throughout South America and Southeast Asia there are rich punk scenes with long, storied histories. Colombia, the Phillipines, Brazil, Argentina — Japan in particular has a huge scene that’s been a big influence, throughout the 90’s and into this century, on punk in the US, particularly garage and noise/avant-garde stuff on the west coast.

    Are they all trying to be white?

    Of course, I remember an interview with the band Cólera somebody had translated from some old Brazilian skateboarding magazine (the were around in the late 80’s) in which they were asked about what it was like touring Europe and playing with a bunch of European bands. They basically said, “well, Europe’s got great cultural institutions and excellent welfare, and none of the crime or poverty we have in Brazil, so all they really have to complain about is nuclear war.”

    There’s definitely a disconnect there. I think you’ve got some very valid points, but you’re being pretty rude and dismissive in the course of putting them forth (Karl).

  95. DivergentDana wrote:

    What are “predominantly white concerns”, Karl?

  96. Kelvin wrote:

    @ harrumph

    I don’t think he is rude. He just has an opinion and You know what they say, “Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one”.

    @Everyone,

    Anyone going for the upcoming Coldplay concerts? I just got tickets for their June show in DC. Should be fun a lot of fun especially since I’ll be out there “acting white” and stuff.

  97. kiki wrote:

    What about the Chicano punk music from LA? There were some great Chicano bands. Manic Hispanic does covers of old punk standards but switches the lyrics up to represent Latino povs. Very funny.

  98. Karl wrote:

    I think you’ve got some very valid points, but you’re being pretty rude and dismissive in the “course of putting them forth (Karl).”

    That’s your opinion, I’ve gone to great pains to not phrase this and say things as I truly believe them out of respect for the forum….

    “I don’t think he is rude. He just has an opinion and You know what they say, “Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one”.

    You included….

    “What about the Chicano punk music from LA? There were some great Chicano bands. ”

    and

    “What about people involved in punk scenes that aren’t majority white? Throughout South America and Southeast Asia there are rich punk scenes with long, storied histories. Colombia, the Phillipines, Brazil, Argentina — Japan in particular has a huge scene that’s been a big influence, throughout the 90’s and into this century, on punk in the US, particularly garage and noise/avant-garde stuff on the west coast. Are they all trying to be white?”

    How tied are said groups and scenes to voicing the concerns of and cultures of the areas they ostensibly represent? Their politics? Social movements or particular concerns the scenes (not this specific group or another- the scene as a whole) represent? Relationship to the white/mainstream gatekeepers of the music or scenes they are trying to emulate or remix? The socioeconomic background of the people in these scenes in their respective countries? Answer the above then you can analyze, to a certain extent, whether or not you can say they are “trying to act white”.

    “”What are “predominantly white concerns”, Karl?”" - you tell me, yall are enmeshed in their culture :) but I will say, flippantly, anything that is completely and 100 percent disconnected from any concrete social movements or actual social justice and disconnected from concerns of history etc…I’d say any non-threatening, “personal” issues - personal liberation issues rather- using this drug, or having sex this way etc, eating ….individualistic concerns…hence the popularity of materialistic “me me me” rap etc

  99. Sean wrote:

    To Gouw (post #36)

    As a long time blues fanatic, I started asking myself that question 20 years ago. I couldn’t figure out how is it that I could go to an Albert Collins concert and besides Albert- be the only black person there. After a while, the only explanation I could come up with had two parallel tracks:

    1. The civil rights movement helped to render the blues as “old people” music. It’s ironic that as soul music was being born, the blues which it grew out of became less favorable to progressive, militant-minded AA’s.

    2. Co-opting by English fans. Another irony is that at the same time the blues was falling out of favor with young blacks in the U.S, British kids were “discovering” Big Bill Broonzy, Muddy Waters, Freddy King, etc. This directly led to blues and blues-based music finally gaining acceptance in the U.S. mainstream via bands like The Rolling Stones, Cream, Led Zeppelin, The Animals, etc. Bands with white faces.

    MTV has also done much to enhance the perception that music made with guitars and drums are intrinsically “white”, while black musicians were limited to mics and turntables.

    A side effect of it all is the marginalization of the role African Americans played in the creation of the music. Like Black Canseco pointed out- there tends to be a push to “universalize” the music of African American’s by whitewashing our history out of it.

    It’s a parallel similarity to what happened with jazz and rock & roll. Once the mainstream became hip to the music, they coronated Paul Whiteman (more irony for you) and Elvis Presley as their respective “kings”. Worse yet is the seeming apathy of young African Americans. Even Prince once asked “why are we always giving the store away?”

    Interstingly enough, hip-hop seems to be avoiding the same fate so far, considering the music has been around for over 30 years now. Meshell N’Degeocello once pointed out that “hip-hop is the first musical movement in history that we actually got to ‘pimp’ before anyone else did”.

  100. DivergentDana wrote:

    “anything that is completely and 100 percent disconnected from any concrete social movements or actual social justice and disconnected from concerns of history etc”

    So according to you, the vast majority of music — including but not limited to black music — is focused on “predominantly white” concerns like

    “boy meets girl (any gendered combination thereof), et cetera”
    “this club is great, and I feel like dancing”
    “I’m sorry I did _____, significant other”
    “I’m/we’re the best MC/band ever”

    Personally, no matter what genre I was listening to, “message music” was always a personal turnoff — even when I agreed with the message wholeheartedly. And punk, like hip-hop is actually home to a variety of political movements and musical subgenres that reflect that — how you’d evaluate the validity of these movements and if black people can relate to them without “attempting to be white” in your sight, is another matter altogether. And as far as style of dress is concerned, isn’t the default American uniform already based on “white trendsetters” and white culture? The fact that the center of the mainstream fashion industry is right between Western Europe and NYC isn’t a coincidence.

  101. harrumph wrote:

    >> Answer the above then you can analyze, to a certain extent, whether or not you can say they are “trying to act white”.

    So . . . if they’re trying to act white, we’ll be able to tell because they’ll be trying to act white? Not a very strong argument, especially considering how certain you were, coming in, that all non-white punks were just trying to pass.

    For what it’s worth, and from what I know, neither the Japanese punk scene nor the early Brazilian punk scene (I can’t really speak to its present condition) meet many, if any, of your “acting white” criteria.

  102. Sean wrote:

    Also, I remember when Buddy Guy was enrolled in the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame. The cynic in me had to wonder: was he enshrined because his music and guitar playing was great, or was he enshrined because Eric Clapton admitted to stealing a lot of his guitar licks?

  103. Black Canseco wrote:

    clapton did rip off a bunch of Hooker and buddy Guy for that matter. To his credit, Clapton came thru Chicago and played in Buddy Guy’s bar pretty regularly. The joint is an old school hole on south Wabash street. He often played unannounced so the only folks that saw him were people who went to BG’s regularly.

  104. Karl wrote:

    harrumph wrote:

    >> Answer the above then you can analyze, to a certain extent, whether or not you can say they are “trying to act white”.

    So . . . if they’re trying to act white, we’ll be able to tell because they’ll be trying to act white? Not a very strong argument, especially considering how certain you were, coming in, that all non-white punks were just trying to pass.

    For what it’s worth, and from what I know, neither the Japanese punk scene nor the early Brazilian punk scene (I can’t really speak to its present condition) meet many, if any, of your “acting white” criteria.”

    And thus they aree not trying to act white….why is this so difficult for you to understand? My argument is quite strong, your ability to read or process is not. It is a very simple if/then statement…based on the criteria I put forth.

    One more time….

    How tied are said groups and scenes to voicing the concerns of and cultures of the areas they ostensibly represent? Their politics? Social movements or particular concerns the scenes (not this specific group or another- the scene as a whole) represent? Relationship to the white/mainstream gatekeepers of the music or scenes they are trying to emulate or remix? The socioeconomic background of the people in these scenes in their respective countries? Answer the above then you can analyze, to a certain extent, whether or not you can say they are “trying to act white”.

    Where in any of my comments did I say something so ridiculous as what you attempted to reduce my points to? Were the sentences preceding the soundbite not visible? And who said all non white punks were passing… I said if…..then…… And then proceeded to use excerpts from various comments, and a detailed list of stipulations to list when they would indeed be trying to pass. Very straight fwd, very simple, the strawman arguments are your own creation, not mine.

  105. Karl wrote:

    “Personally, no matter what genre I was listening to, “message music” was always a personal turnoff — even when I agreed with the message wholeheartedly. ”

    Neither here nor there…you’d have to answer the rest of the posed questions before anything could really be said….but I already conceded the point regarding down breaking down types of music to a certain extent when I typed:
    “”hence the popularity of materialistic “me me me” rap etc”"

    Regarding:

    ” And as far as style of dress is concerned, isn’t the default American uniform already based on “white trendsetters” and white culture? The fact that the center of the mainstream fashion industry is right between Western Europe and NYC isn’t a coincidence.”

    False… if you refer to the aforementioned comment regarding black music being made universal (by properly delousing it/making it safe by positioning it as far away from blackness as is possible) fashions trends (so far as men are concerned-) are made universal (i.e. not black, anything but black) in the same way. the contributions of blacks in this realm have been and also must be ruthlessly expunged, otherwise it won’t be mainstreamed. Whether you’re talking about tightly tailored suits aka socks showing/high tailored sleeves (which were popularized not by the beetles or the hipsters you see in new harlem- but by Jamaicans in the UK and other locales) or the layered blazer wearing Will.I.Am type look (grafted off of J-burg/South African fashions) blacks and other POC have started a good chunk of the fashion trends through the ages in this country- don’t sleep. Again, my view of this matter might be highly gender specific as women’s fashion magazines/world very well might be blindingly white but I’ve made no comments in that regard…..

    The person who wrote the following Punk Rock article is not trying to pass based on stipulations put forth:

    http://www.hipmama.com/node/1979

  106. Niko wrote:

    @Black Canseco
    “the flipside of this reasonably noble thought is: “everything is for the taking.”
    And depending on who’s doing the taking, it’ll get taken, abused, used, and discarded.”

    This is a very true statement. I’m not saying that one must listen to a white rock musician and wonder why they aren’t singing about black issues. One’s music should reflect one’s own experiences, otherwise they’ll end up making music that is contrived and insincere. But, for a black person who wants to make punk music, a field that is dominated and conceived of by white musicians, it would, to me, seem nonsensical to pretend as though you see the world through the eyes of a white musician. For example, my (kinda secret) favorite musical genre is korean traditional music. If ever decided to start singing korean songs, it would be weird and kind of deceitful if I started singing about the mountains and rivers of Korea when I’m from Tennesee. In that way, I am totally making it my own. And sense I’m (kind of) african I could throw in some wicked west african drum beats and that also would be making it my own. It’s not that I don’t respect the original art form or where its coming from, its about creating a sincere and genuine work of art that makes sense to me. So what I guess what I could have said without typing so much is, you HAVE to make music your own if your creating it. Or else you’re just lying.

    This however, is not to say that black music and black musicians have not been abused and degraded by white musicians. That is most certainly a fact. But to be honest with you, I don’t usually care if white people want to listen to a paler version of soul music or rap music or any musical genre that black folks have pioneered. If they like filtered and contrived music, then so be it. My only issue is when folks don’t acknowledge where there music came from and get all of the credit for creating “new” music. Like Elvis. Man, I hate Elvis. What an assclown. But I digress.

    “Black Punkers only seem to accepted by punk mainstream when they check “black” at the door. You almost have to pretend that your ethnicity is non-existent.”

    Also true.

    @Karl

    “someone above said they talk about universal concerns - think about that link - universal=neutral=normal=white”

    Wait…what? I listed examples of universal issues like love, loss, happiness. How could those possibly be only white issues? Universal is not “neutral” by any means, it indicates that it is experienced by everyone on the planet. It is a shared experience that links us all together as human beings. It has nothing to do with neutrality and certainly nothing to do with whiteness.

    Also, the “explanation” I offered about black kids growing up in the suburbs was not an excuse, because I don’t really think they need to be excused for listening to what they want. But also I wanted to clarify that the number of black girls I know from the suburbs is quite small, but I know other black folks (myself included) raised far from cul-de-sacs and minivans who enjoy quality music no matter who it comes from.

    Also I have another question, just because it just popped into my head: do you think that black people who “act white” by enmeshing themselves in white sub-cultures can be proud to be black?

  107. kiki wrote:

    …you tell me, yall are enmeshed in their culture

    Maybe you should look up, “Chicano”.

  108. Sylvanis wrote:

    Imma keep this way simple. Its dumb early, but I guess I still have the where-with-all to see what many are not. Damn…I’ve read a lot of comments. And I see major fuss about what homie Karl above me is saying…I ask what for?? It sounds like he was just stipulating what could qualify as acting “white”. As far as I can see there is no argument here…yet. These postings in reply of various personal accounts in the “Punk Rock realm” (with no factual or statistical support) do not prove or refute anything in terms of argument. They cannot stand as a generalized experience with the Punk Rock realm nor as an argument (as if the validity of such accounts can be argued…obviously not… “WE DON’T KNOW YOU!!!”). Another thing is that, the preference of music is not in question here, but rather the motives behind some Blacks meshing themselves with a particular music “scene” and what some actually seek to satisfy through that preference of music and that genre’s respective “scene”?

    These stipulations from Karl sound like a simple “if” ….”then”…..type of logic. In other words if “you” happen to do as Karl detailed many times…then you most likely are acting (fill in the blank)… I suppose choosing one’s words carefully is also important when deciding to personal accounts, as to not unwillingly fall under such a category by (i.e “accidentally” bashing/pissing on another music and culture rather than expressing one’s personal love for his/her preferred music….). Hmmm….Perhaps those who continue to argue in this digressing fashion most likely see a reflection of themselves in Karl’s stipulations and wish to prove everyone….more importantly “themselves” otherwise.

    Well in that regard I must say,

    Good Luck……

    but ‘try” to argue what Karl has brought forth ppl, not perversely state (what you “think” he thinks of you “personally”…smh).

    oh and props to “Black Canseco” too…I’m witcha

  109. Kelvin wrote:

    @ Sylvanis
    “Perhaps those who continue to argue in this digressing fashion most likely see a reflection of themselves in Karl’s stipulations and wish to prove everyone….more importantly “themselves” otherwise.”

    I can speak for others here but it seems to me that some stranger on the internets is calling into question the “blackness” of other strangers on the internets. Some folks will always respond and that’s a very natural reaction. My take on it remains the same as above. He has his opinions among a sea of opinions which also holds mine and that’s all that it is really.

  110. Karl wrote:

    Wow…apparently this really is exceedingly difficult to understand…the post is not about you…I dont know any of you and hence, can not and did not call anyONE or revoke any card of anyONE on the site…as summed up eloquently (and bloodly simply and clearly by Sylvanis) I put up an if then statement…with stipulations (which I’ve stated four or five times, clearly). What’s the point of posting something general like “who racialized the music” or any damn article if everytime there is a discussion that doesnt lead to a unanimous flood of Benneton/Save the World/Knee Jerk the world is great comments, people start constructing solipsistic strawmen and yelling “not me, don’t call me this blah blah”….I am the only person on this board who was personally called anything here (rude, dismissive) to which I brushed off as I know what I’ve written (its posted for all to see) and was very clear about what I was doing.

    With regards to opinions, most of yall haven’t posted an opinion about whether people who are in a scene/listen to a type of music/etc etc are trying to pass or not…all that was posted was “I love coldplay or my silly black family looks at me weird when I throw on the Sid Vicious” ….those aren’t opinions, those are tangentially related statements of fact (assuming you’re not lying) about yourself, which can not be discussed. What am I supposed to say?!?! “No, you’re family doesn’t” ?!?! Really, now, I put comments up there, with arguable (which most of yall-kelvin et al haven’t done in any way shape or form) points and criteria based on the topic at hand…

  111. Kelvin wrote:

    @ Karl

    Your points have been noted. Thanks for reading the article. Cheers!

  112. LBell wrote:

    To NancyP (#44):

    I am in the process of ripping my CD of Joshua Bell’s “The Kreisler Album” to iTunes right this moment.

    Nowadays very few people listen to classical music so when I say that my iTunes contains about 1/3 classical, everybody, white, black, both, and neither, looks at me like I’m crazy.

    I began studying classical flute at age 9 but didn’t really start listening to classical music until age 12 or so, when I just happened to catch something on the radio by some guy named Bartok. ;) The very fact that I was flipping stations at all I owe to another black girl, a friend who got bored really easily. Thanks to her I also got exposed to, among other things, rock music. I will never forget how I started singing Pat Benatar’s “Heartbreaker” at the bus stop and was shut down immediately by my black classmates: You like that shit? Needless to say I never even mentioned the classical music to them.

    That was almost 30 years ago and I can’t believe we’re still having this discussion.

  113. AnonymousM wrote:

    I think black people need to stop thinking as a collective and start being more individuals. Being afraid of being criticized for liking a genre of music other than rap is retarted. White people listen to YOUR music. They technically shouldn’t be allowed to criticize black people for listening because they didn’t invent any of it, rock, rap, jazz, blues, techno, none of it. Folk songs and classical, and i bet way back when europeans probably stole classical music from the middle east/asian culture anyway so…

    More black people should start forming rock groups, or become techno djs like Moby or something, start reclaiming your music.

  114. deesha wrote:

    I’m way late with this, but thought there might be some interest:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/27/AR2008052703079_5.html

    In particular, I “got issues” with him needing to reassure his fans that he doesn’t fight and never drinks excess. Do all balladeers in Japan do this? Or just the black ones?

  115. Rob Fields wrote:

    I, too, am late to this, but wanted to first thank @TheCruelSecretary for highlighting boldaslove.us. The important takeaway is not to focus on how the music got racialized, but on how we can move forward. How can we not only support those artists and individuals who are helping the Black imagination evolve, but also how can we collectively make this matter in the marketplace? It’s really about building on the gains that have been made, such as was cited by Sunday’s NY Daily News: http://www.boldaslove.us/2008/05/rock-is-the-new.html

  116. SolShine7 wrote:

    I can’t wait to see that film and I really enjoy the AfroPunk website. I’ve found some interesting bands on there. I listen to all types of music but my favorite genres are rock, world and post-rock. But I like it best when artists mix much styles like P.O.D.

  117. Amanda wrote:

    Kelvin– I, too, was raised in Nigeria, and growing up in the States, my musical tastes were never tied to my race. My white friends never understood my hip hop “fascination” and my black friends barely even recognized “white music” as a genre.
    I can rap along to any Mos Def album, but never hesitate to admit that Coldplay is on my top 3 bands of all time. I play the acoustic guitar too, is THAT racialized as well?

  118. Ada wrote:

    Dude, I feel ya! My parents are Nigerians and my dad grew up listening to Country and Classical. Ha. I listened to everything from Incubus and Mandy Moore as a kid; it was only when I got to middle school that I found out that there was an expectation for me to listen to Hip Hop. I listen to a limited amount, most of it contains too much misogyny and slurs for me. One of the most famous rockers Jimi Hendrix is black yet if a black person is into rock its kind of a shock. Not as bad as with Rissi Palmer being a country girl though. There’s hope I think in rock for the return of Afro-punk.

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