Interracial Dating: Interracial Dating with a Vengeance

by Guest Contributor Nadra Kareem

“I hope he dates a white girl.”

A few years ago a visitor to actor John Cho’s page on the Internet Movie Database left this comment. The commenter, presumably an Asian male, explained that he made the statement because it would serve Asian women right if a desirable Asian male ended up with a white woman, since Asian women so often end up with white men.

At the time, I didn’t make much of the comment. I thought it was the lone view of a person who felt that the women of his race had betrayed him. But more recently, I’ve seen a slew of comments like this one pop up online. Visit Halle Berry’s IMDB page or any site that mentions the baby girl she had with white Canadian model Gabriel Aubry, and you’ll find a series of remarks, left presumably by black women, that not only applaud Berry’s decision to partner with a white man but also express resentment against black men for not committing to black women. Black men are afraid of marriage, dating white women, in jail, “on the down low” or dead, the commenters argue, and, if they wait around for black men to get their act together, they just might end up childless and alone.

Now, I realize that these comments stereotype Asian women and black men, but they beg the question: Do Asian men and black women find themselves in interracial relationships for different reasons than their female and male counterparts, respectively, do? When Asian men and black women date whites, or any other group, is it a way to give the middle finger to those they feel have rejected them or, at the very least, avoid ending up alone?

Before I go on, I want to stress that I know that there are plenty of Asian women available for Asian men to date and plenty of black men available for black women to date (though black women reportedly have the lowest marriage rate of any other group of women), but the perception is that they are being left behind, and perception influences action.

So, if you’re an Asian male or a black female involved in an interracial relationship, do you feel that you’ve in any way been influenced by these perceptions? Also, I would really find it interesting to hear from Asian men involved with black women or vice versa. I’m not proposing this as a solution to everyone’s dating woes, but, as I read the kinds of comments I described above, I couldn’t help but to wonder about this possibility.

Lastly, I’m wondering if Asian men and black women feel that they garner more surprise when they date interracially than their female and male counterparts do? In other words, are people more startled by the sight of an Asian man and a white woman together than they are by the sight of an Asian woman and a white man? The same goes for black women with white men, compared to black men and white women.

(Photo Credit: Akira’s Hip-Hop Shop)

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Comments

Cynthia wrote:

I think it’s the whole, “black women don’t support black men, they give them a hard time, etc.”.

I know my father told me that he only wanted me to date a black american that I better not bring a white boy home.

I, of course didn’t listen to him and dated whomever I wanted. He actually even made a HUGE fuss when I dated an African for awhile.

I think they [black men] see it as a betrayal to their race but they have no problem using excuses to go outside their race box. That, black women don’t want to support and help raise up a “brotha” they want an already self made man or all black women are after the money, are chaste or too easy, blah, blah. There is always a reason for them to think to date outside of their race BUT, when a woman is fed up and finds happiness elsewhere then they want to be up in arms. It’s hypocrisy, my father included.

In his second marriage, he married a mixed woman (she’s half Korean, half white). Thanks for leading by example, daddy!

I personally never had an issue dating whomever I was at the time. I like who I like and I don’t make any excuses for that because I’m the one sleeping next to them every night…not my parents, my friends, strangers (or at least…I HOPE not!)…

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:47 am ¶
outcrazyophelia wrote:

I’m a black woman in a long term relationship with a white man. I’ve got to say I’ve never been asked why I’m not dating a black guy, but generally people are surprised that I’m not. They react as if its really strange that we have anything in common/would want to be involved with each other for the long haul. I don’t feel I’ve been influenced by the stereotypes–in fact I got to know my boyfriend before I even knew what race he was, but I think when people know about him, they treat me as if I’m “too good” to date a black guy. I feel like while it usually goes unspoken, people expect us to justify the relationship.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:54 am ¶
Faith wrote:

Hi everyone,

I’m a black woman in an interracial relationship. Sometimes I’ve wondered if my relationship was kinda a middle finger to black men, especially ones who date women of other races. I wrote about it on my blog awhile back actually. I have to admit that in the past I definitely felt resentment to black men who dated white women or even women of other races b/c it did feel like rejection. The stats about black women and marriage as well as reports like recent one on NBC News about the marriage crunch for black women didn’t exactly help matters. Now, I realize that was hypocritical and stupid especially considering my own interracial marriage and the men who I considered in the past. Still, there are times when I see a black man with a non-Black woman and I stare for a nano-second before telling myself “Faith, stop it!” I’m working on it.

My husband and I do get stares a lot. I don’t know if it’s more than a black man with a white woman though.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:17 am ¶
mariamaria3 wrote:

I am a black woman in a relationship with an asian man. We’ve been talking about this phenomenon for years and its great to see it getting some more publicity. I love my boyfriend, and am not dating him out of spite. But if I’m honest with myself, I know that the decision to start dating outside of my race was based on large part that as a highly educated and successful black woman, my black male counterparts (in terms of education and socio economic status) really weren’t interested. I’m not trying to blame all black men, but that is what I experienced time and and time again.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:20 am ¶
mariamaria3 wrote:

And YES, we get stared at all the time. Way more than any other interracial couple (of any kind) I’ve ever seen. Frankly, I’ve never even met another couple like us until I saw the photo accompanying this post.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:22 am ¶
Rachel wrote:

Hello,

To speak up a bit for the younger college generation, I don’t think interracial dating really matters so much. I’ve only been involved in interracial relationships and nobody’s given me any grief about it. No one has ever presumed that, just because there’s another black guy at a party, that I should go talk to him. I think it does relate to whatever environment/social circles in which you interact. You go for what’s available.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:30 am ¶
Alikat wrote:

I am a black woman in a relationship with a white man. We have gotten some looks that tell me that people are surprised to see us together. The looks may also be because of the 30-year age difference, and because I wear dreadlocks, while my beau looks very conventional. Like outcrazyophelia wrote in her post, people wonder what we have in common. Mad love, that’s what! And we get along famously.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:34 am ¶
lunanoire wrote:

To the first question: HELL YES!

California (where I grew up) is a great mixing bowl– for other people.

I am a single Af-Am female who has dated people of other ethnicities. As much as I would like a husband from a similar background in order to raise an upstanding Af-Am identifed young man, I do feel that it’s time to give up the dream in order to avoid ending up alone.

It’s easy for others to dismiss the pain of those who feel unwanted b/c of their race/gender if you have not gone through it yourself. There is a world of difference between discussing “when” in reference instead of “if.”

If you’re in an environment where few people are interested in someone of your race/gender, it’s a blow to the psyche. Everybody needs love.

If you think this issue has been blown out of proportion, you are likely to not be on the bottom of the race/gender totem pole, and you can view dating/marriage/etc. as something that is a likely possiblity in your future, depending on the state for queer couples.

In the Af-Am commnity, there are “plenty” of single men, but the number disparity still exists b/c of jail/prision/early death. Many men who do have a job and/or education know that they are highly desired by women from many ethnicities, so they don’t have to commit to any woman if they don’t want to. If he does, he can pick a better-looking woman than he would otherwise if the gender disparity did not exist.

Someone in a much earlier thread metioned that many black girls in mixed environments have friends but few dates. For some, this pattern continues into adulthood.

For adults, how does personal responsibility play a role? Should a person keep trying or resign to a life of singledom? It can be wearying to go on tons of fruitless first dates.

At a fashion show I heard a HOT As-Am male model ask an As-Am female model if she dates Asian guys. I thought it was sad b/c he’s a model! Tall, good-looking, and still getting shot down by women b/c of his ethnicity.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:44 am ¶
A wrote:

I am also a black female in a relationship with an asian male and I have to agree with mariamaria3: I don’t see any couples that look like me. I guess that explains the staring.
The perceptions of black males are out there, but they didn’t influence my decision. I know several black men who support black women. I met a guy who has all of the qualities I am seeking in a person, he just happens to be asian.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:45 am ¶
Eva wrote:

Today it’s so hard to find a partner that you can share things with, that you can trust. If the person is of a different race than you, so what? Why do people want to analyze everything? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:45 am ¶
lunanoire wrote:

*What I mean to say is that there is a difference btw making a choice based on abundance, rather than lack.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:46 am ¶
J wrote:

I am also a black woman dating a white man. As the other women here have said, I didn’t choose to date interracially out of spite, but I certainly do have this sense that there are less “eligible” black men out there.

What Rachel says is true too. The men I date tend to come from the social circles in which I interact. Most of the men happen to be white and so I end up mostly dating white men.

And people most definitely stare. For me, the main culprits tend to be black men and elderly white people. I wouldn’t say that the staring is really hostile (though a few times from black men it has been)- but it is certainly more than a double glance, and long enough to be considered rude.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:56 am ¶
B wrote:

I’m a black woman married to a white man. I don’t think that I was at all influenced by those negative perceptions of black men. Rather, I wasn’t around as many black men, and it was as simple as that. (My husband and I met in a college class together that was in my major and his minor field. While the university was fairly diverse, my major was pretty lily-white, with only a few other black folk.) In general, we find that people are more surprised at our pairing than one of a white woman and black man, but that we haven’t met nearly as much resentment and anger as the latter pairing. Usually, people just don’t believe we’re together, or try to figure out who we possibly could have ended up together. (I tend to think the “where did you meet” line of inquiry is a little suspect when people ask it after they know our occupations and hear us speak; we’re both humanities grad students with distinctly Northeastern accents. I notice that people aren’t as compelled to ask, say, same-race couples where one is an engineer with a southern accent and the other is a ballet dancer with an old-money New England accent where *they* met.)

Incidentally, I did date a Chinese-American man in college who had a Chinese-American friend who was also dating a black woman. One night when the 4 of us were hanging out (this might have been when we were still friends/before we dated?), one of the guys joked that it was an ideal situation for all the Asian men and black women that get left out of interracial dating, so it does seem to be an issue that occurs to people, even if it doesn’t seriously factor into who they end up with.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:59 am ¶
Treacle wrote:

Egads! There is certainly a lot of talk of interracial relationships going on.

The perception that I was being left behind did not influence my decision to date a white man. The fact that he asked me out did.

I wonder if more tangible variables (you can’t really measure percpetions, after all) like environment, education, and region have an effect on rates of interracial dating and also on responses to interracial dating.

Re: the first part…For example, I’m a black woman living in the south in a college town with a post-graduate degree. Those last two factors, especially, make it more likely my social network is going to be composed of white people. Since most people find their relationships through their social network, it also becomes more likely that the person I date will be white.

As for the second part, I believe living in the southeast is what gets us stared at. Interestingly, I’ve noticed different responses from black women than from black men. Black women cheer us on as we’re walking down the street, talking about how cute we look or how nice it is to see us dating. Black men, give us hard up and down stares, grimace, and walk by without saying a word.

Just my .02…

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:01 am ¶
Gori Girl wrote:

My husband is South Asian (Indian), and I’m a white American. I don’t think we get any more stares than any other interracial couple (I’ve dated a lot of different skin tones), but that might be because, in the US, South Asians and East Asians have different sort of stereotypes associated with them.

I agree that interracial dating doesn’t matter much to the Millennial Generation (of which I just barely belong to), but it still matters to a lot of older folk. But interCULTURAL dating will always have its issue – between partners, with families, etc. There’s a lot of cultural confusion & miscues to get through (I blog a bit about this).

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:13 am ¶
Ron wrote:

I’m an American Born Chinese (ABC) and all 6 of my male cousins are dating or engaged to non-Asian women for the “wrong” reasons. There’s no doubt in my mind that they [cousins] love their non-Asian counterparts but what brought them together in the first place was certainly based on race alone.

As I get older (late 20s), I meet more and more Asian men with the same mentality.

It’s not surprising. It follows the ancient Chinese philosphy of Yin and Yang where harmony only exists when there is balance. There are real world applications to this; when the gap between rich and poor grow larger, the chances of a revolt will increase. As the gap closes, the chances of revolt will decrease.

To be honest, I give Asian men in North America a considerable amount of credit. If it was happening to men of any other race, cities would be in ruins.

Right now, I think that the gap, for Asian Americans, is massive and as time progresses, the community is going to find a large internal conflict that has been festering for years.

PS: I find it ironic that black men complain about black women who date out considering the ratio is almost 10:1.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:18 am ¶
B wrote:

Rachel,
I think that your point is heartening–that this stuff isn’t as big a deal for younger people. I also agree with you–I think people in my parent’s generation got way more flack than interracial couples do now.

That said, I’d push you to think how common those interracial relationships are once you’re out of college, and once folks start getting married and/or taking other steps establishing life-long commitments. I personally dated a few non-black guys that were down with me at school, but weren’t going to take me home to meet their mothers. In both the case of me (black woman) and my husband (white guy), a bunch of our friends of varying races *dated* interracially at one time or another, but none of them have domestic partners or fiances or spouses or live-ins that are of a different race.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:27 am ¶
Ali wrote:

Well I’m not in a interracial relationship and technically I don’t even really date (this is not necessarily by choice) but this subject is near and dear to my heart so I’d like to offer my two cents. Man, this is an emotional topic, so hopefully I don’t get too rambly.

lunanoire, I co-sign your post inside and out! Especially, “If you’re in an environment where few people are interested in someone of your race/gender, it’s a blow to the psyche. Everybody needs love.”

SO TRUE. I’m still dealing with a lot of self perception crap that resulted from growing up in a nearly all white suburb. To this day both of my brothers date white women (pretty much exclusively), at first it used to piss me off but when I really thought about it I realized they don’t deserve to be with any woman they couldn’t fully appreciate be she black or otherwise.

I strongly disagree that there are plenty of black men around for black women to date. Now, if this is some how true and I am mistaken would someone please kindly point me in the direction of the black man buffet? Even as a preteen I could tell that the black women in my area had to try SO much harder to impress black men. Beautiful black women were passed over (and in some cases flat our ignored) for Latinas and white girls regularly.

It still feels like I have to work harder to impress a guy that supposedly shares my background and I’m getting really sick of jumping through hoops. For what? If I wouldn’t let any other man treat me this way, why am I playing myself just to be with a black guy? Am I trying to make my parents, grandparents and there friends happy? So they don’t feel the need to explain my relationship to themselves and others? FUCK THAT!

I do feel that there is a strain on black women (especially middle class black women) who want to date or marry black men exclusively so there’s not really an option to rule other ethnicities out. I think Lauren over at Stereohyped approached this issue in a very thoughtful manner. She posed the simple question, why would you punish yourself by endlessly worrying about someone who is not interested in you? It’s self defeating to hound someone who clearly does not want you. I understand feeling rejected by the one who is supposed to understand you and the dashed hopes of achieving your “picture perfect” family but maybe it’s time to expand our definition of what a perfect family or relationship looks like. For me, part of reconstructing this image has been a long and arduous process of breaking myself of the habit of projecting my personal issues and feelings onto random couples. Every black man I see with a non-black woman is not a personal rejection of me. Hell, usually I don’t even know the guy! Sure some men have issues ( a la my two brothers whom I love very much), but those issues have nothing to do with me. I’m not open to dating someone from a different race or ethnic background out of spite. I think I’m more motivated by self-love and the desire to be happy than anything else.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:31 am ¶
Steve W wrote:

I’m a black man that generally dates white women. That’s not because I have anything against black women either. I like sistas just fine. It’s simply that a) most of the women I come in contact with are white and the women I date are a subset of that group and b) I find that black women who enjoy the type of activities I do often date white men so they aren’t attracted to me.

Lastly, don’t assume that everyone who stares at interracial couples disapproves of what they see. I stare at them ALL THE TIME. It reinforces my faith in humanity…and I often wonder what brought them together.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:34 am ¶
johnjihoonchang wrote:

I’m an Asian male, but with very limited relationship experience, so I can only really write of my perceptions.

Personally, I don’t imagine that I’d find myself in an interracial relationship for any real different reasons than my female counterparts. Except for the “I’m just only attracted to white guys, I can’t help it” reason that I’ve been given more than a few times. I don’t find myself any more attracted to women of any specific race, so odds are that race specifically won’t play as much of a factor in whom I consciously choose to date. At least for personal reasons.

That said, it probably would be involved, because of how my social circle is strongly influenced my socio-economic class and there is some disparity in racial representation across socio-economic classes. Furthermore, my parents (father especially) would be extremely disapproving of my dating any woman but a woman of Corean descent, so I imagine it would make me more hesitant to enter a relationship with anyone that isn’t Corean–not that I wouldn’t, but I would definitely ponder it more.

But in general, I’d probably enter an interracial relationship for the same reason that most of my female counterparts do. You sometimes can’t help but let your heart lead.

I don’t think that there’s a lack of eligible women to date, so I don’t necessarily feel like I’d date interracially because of a lack of options, although I do note that there is a lack of Asian women in my most active social circles.

In terms of other Asian males, I actually am surprised myself when I meet an Asian male in a relationship with a non-Asian female and it’s purely because I just don’t see it very often. But, being an Asian male myself, I don’t find it strange internally, it’s just not a common sight. The vast majority (technically all at present) of my Asian male friends are not in interracial relationships.

I don’t find it strange to see Asian females with white males though. A numerable minority of my Asian female friends are in interracial relationships and many have married or are engaged to be married to their significant others.

I think a part of me has probably been subconsciously influenced by seeing the disparity in interracial relationships with Asian males and Asian females and I do probably feel somewhere inside that Asian men, like myself, are less desireable to women of all races than males of other races. Or at least popularly so. My rational mind however, won’t accept that, because I think I’m pretty damn attractive. =P

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:35 am ¶
kd wrote:

I’ve gotten that from black women before… that “Aha I’m dating a white man” attitude. But I think it raises a question. Are they dating interacially,-a white man for example- and just being overly smug about it, or are they dating simply to spite the people they feel “have done them” wrong in their own race? As I commented in a previous post I’ve found that it is often a combination of the two.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 12:06 pm ¶
Phred wrote:

This is something I’ve thought about for most of my adult life. I have dated women of many different ethnicities. I am currently married to a woman who is Irish-American. I am Asian-American (As-Am).

So where does “preference” all start? I grew up in a predominately White town with all of my friends being White. I continue to live/work in a world that is White. Now does that make me a self-hating Asian? I don’t think I am.

But it does bring up for me the idea of what it means to be Asian-American. Ever since college I have been struggling with the issue of what it meant to be As-Am. I don’t speak Chinese very well or am very up to date on Chinese cultural customs. Does this make me “less Asian” than a White guy who can speak fluent Chinese and who lived in China for 10 years?

So I guess what I’m saying is our “preference” is definitely influenced by our upbringing. Tempered by the fact that we have plenty of agency in our adult life to change things if we are aware of it.

I think for my wife and I, we get stared at more because she is 14 years older than me. She is actually happy that we are mixed race as no one assumes she is my mother (well except for the one time at the dentist).

Posted 20 May 2008 at 12:27 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:

my grandpa was an Asian American who married a white woman. Their hapa son, my dad, dated my mom who’s also white, and also got married to another white woman and then a Latina. Interracial relationships, in any shape of form, have never seemed like a big deal to me, and I think that’s partially because of a lot of my generation’s attitudes on them and also because of my family. I’ve never noticed anybody giving my dad weird looks for not being with Asian women. I don’t think his reasons for dating outside (half) his race have much to do with anything besides just love, and that’s the way I feel too. If you love someone, race doesn’t have to be a primary issue.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 12:29 pm ¶
lunanoire wrote:

Ali,

thank you. Also, there is less of a problem for beautiful black women who also appear mixed.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:09 pm ¶
kjen wrote:

“on the bottom of the race/gender totem pole”,

I knew as a child that I would be open to interracial dating, but I sometimes wondered have I remained such a staunch supporter of the practice because I was afraid I could never find a man of my own race whom I wanted that wanted me. I figured it was best to cast as wide a net as possible.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:13 pm ¶
london wrote:

interracial relationships are the norm over here in london…
my generation – i am 42 and a first gen black briton – have grown up with mixed race kids and known their parents…
it could be that most kids here in london now are mixed.. they are mainly all shades of brown..
i don’t even notice..
couples are couples and kids are kids.. it’s not a perceptible issue…

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:24 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

. . . I think I see where kjen is coming from-

Like if I mess around and got too narrow in my selection I’ll end up by myself, so limiting myself to one race just never felt like a smart option.

And the thought of ‘hunting out a race’, even if it’s your own, doesn’t rub right with me.

But I’m a newb in this area- I’ve yet to gain an appropriate attraction from anybody of any race. They guys I’ve like though were those I’ve known in my social circle, which is mostly white with diversity sprinkles.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:26 pm ¶
Ali wrote:

@lunanoire – I agree it’s different for black women who “look” mixed. My cousin is half Korean and whenever we hit the down I definitely notice a difference in the way we are treated (namely by black men at certain clubs). It’s very interesting. I wouldn’t necessarily say she has less of a problem though. That is to say, I don’t consider being relentlessly pursued by jerks who are obviously interested in you for a very superficial reason unproblematic.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:33 pm ¶
heyhey wrote:

“At a fashion show I heard a HOT As-Am male model ask an As-Am female model if she dates Asian guys.”

THAT is troubling. Also, the trend in marketing for biracial couples of the female asian/male white man variety. I am sorry if this has been addressed earlier, but I recall recently on tv three commercials in a row with this pairing… mostly for home improvment and high end cars… and just wondering why the asian brother gets no love.

Also, maybe this is just the circle I roll with now (which is quite different from my VERY whitebread high school days), but I find the as-am male friends can easily express mad love for af-am and latinas as much as their own, which I think might have something to do with their equal love for hiphop since way back. That pop culture influenced their wider perspective. Also, I hate to admit it, but speaking for my own filipina upbringing, there’s still a “white is right” post-colonial mentality that our parents have that we may have actively fought against.

And for some guys, that fight manifests itself in MAD side-eye to certain women who date white men exclusively. When people see the aforementioned biracial couples on tv and assume “it’s just more acceptable to asians”, statistically that might seem true, but don’t be fooled, there’s still a segment of young asian men that are still fighting the “little chinaman” stereotype, and have some (perhaps misdirected) hate on white man/asian women “sell-out epidemic” (their words, not mine.)

Sorry if that went a little off-topic.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:34 pm ¶
Ron wrote:

Not sure how my other comment got swallowed but I think one important aspect to note that since Asian men are so emasculated in North American society, Asian women are actually reinforcing this fact with their dating and marriage habits.

After all, if white men weren’t the best and Asian men weren’t so poor, they’d be with Asian men, right?

It’s almost as if Asian women are being used as a weapon to attack Asian men. What makes it worse is that Asian women poo-poo this concern because they’re too busy thinking about how it would affect their dating pool. Add on the fact that Asian women, by and large, are much more likely to trash their own men than any other ethic minority woman.

This just drives up the animosity towards Asian women. I’m not surprised and it shocks me that so many people, including the ones that visit this site, have no idea why this is happening. I think many Asian men are taking it to the next level when it comes to animosity and distrust of Asian women, there have been some friendly conversation among Asian guys that no longer trust Asian women because they feel that when Asian women want to get married and please “mommy and daddy,” then they’ll look for an Asian guy. It’s as if they’re being used and were never really wanted in the first place. Almost like a last resort since Asian men aren’t leaving in droves.

Like someone said, if Asian men are all excited that an Asian woman dates Asian men, you’ve got problems. Asian women just don’t care because it doesn’t affect them. You can’t blame Asian men for not caring about sexism since it doesn’t affect them.

It’s common sense. When there is no balance when it comes to interracial dating in Asian America and as the gap between two parties grows, so does conflict. During the course of history, as gap between the rich and poor grows, you run a higher risk of revolution.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:41 pm ¶
Ali wrote:

*hit the town* NOT down

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:44 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:

Maybe it’s just the type of houshold I was raised in, but I hate the assumption that you have to be dating IR for any reason other than jiving with a particular person. My family has always been open-minded about the guys I’ve partnered up with over the years because they are more concerned about who makes me happy as opposed to who “society” thinks I should be with. I do wish that people opposed to IR dating would quit trying to shove their own issues on innocent people, especially since that person you’re giving the evil eye to more than likely wouldn’t be a good match for you anyway! Muttering things under your breath, giving people hostile looks and (in worse case scenarios) hurling abuse makes you look stupid; it’s not like that couple is going to look at each other and say “Wow. We should break up since this random person WE DON’T EVEN KNOW doesn’t approve!”

What I REALLY don’t like is people who assume that th major reason you’re with someone is because you’re getting some sort of bonus by being with that person. Granted, there are the individuals who date IR as some sort of agenda, and you can smell them a mile away. I give them a wide berth.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:01 pm ¶
Shauna wrote:

“Lastly, don’t assume that everyone who stares at interracial couples disapproves of what they see. I stare at them ALL THE TIME. It reinforces my faith in humanity…and I often wonder what brought them together.”

I totally agree, especially if it is a pairing that I don’t usually see. However I specifically make sure that I don’t stare, it makes people feel uncomfortable, like they’re an attraction in a zoo.

I also agree that couples that are from 2 different cultures rather than 2 different races have more problems in their relationships. I knew a white male who dated a south asian female for a long time and they ended up breaking up because her family disapproved since he wasn’t of the same religion.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:03 pm ¶
Karl wrote:

Ah…interesting topic, but it is based on a false premise, namely that there are even a fraction of the a) bm/wf relationships in the real world as there are on television and b) that there is even a fraction of the bm/wf relationships in the real world as there are bw/wm relationships. Note the key term here is relationships (sexual variety etc obviously). As for dating and sex (paid for or otherwise-given historical basis) there is no such thing as a parity between WOC/white male pairings and the reverse….the former has historically, presently and given the comments on this board (lol), will continue to be the dominant pairings.

“I’ve gotten that from black women before… that “Aha I’m dating a white man” attitude. But I think it raises a question. Are they dating interacially,-a white man for example- and just being overly smug about it, or are they dating simply to spite the people they feel “have done them” wrong in their own race? As I commented in a previous post I’ve found that it is often a combination of the two.” – I cosign that statement. In any case, it’s always been so in this country and around the world (bw/wm), but I can’t figure why its so, well, disturbing to come across it….not the pairing per se, but the lame justifications that come along with it- as no explanation of said behavior ever ends at “I love him” but always has a “bm are criminal, dating white women, etc” component.

I will now roll around union sq/and park slope (interracial dating ground zero) attempting to suppress the feeling that I’m the last Serb in Croatia, and see if I can spy a BW/WM pairing that hangs out with a BM/WW pairing. THe paucity of these associations leads me to believe there is something more than just being smitten by another race, but actually having issue’s with one’s own grouping involved

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:15 pm ¶
YamYam wrote:

Why even give a second thought to seeing an inter racial couple the street, ethnic or racial? It is one thing to think about this behavior and another to think about the idea of inter racial marriage as it relates to conservative traditions and social tribalism; yet somehow thoughts about either will revolve around one premise – the concept of minorities and majorities – and everything it entails.

Is the presence of the “good” stares just as well as the hateful stares interracial couples weather pointing to the affirmation of racial or ethnic solidarity demonstrated in the advantages of feeling like a “majority” and the strangeness of defining anything else close to it as a “minority?” Is staring the tip of the iceberg or its true weight below? I think it assuages tribalistic social behavior and not even in those who participate, but those around them – and even moreso in the children that come from inter racial relationships. Curiosity is all that it is on a personal level, and that’s natural.

On a higher level, it seems almost evolutionary, a diffusion of contrast.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:18 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

I don’t want to be mean to all the people involved in IR relationships particularly on this topic but WHO GIVES A DAMN !!!! The Civil Rights and Women’s movement was supposed to bring about these type of changes. 75% percent of African- American Women are in college in 2008 compared to the 60’s and many of these women are not just getting degrees in teaching and nursing but in a variety of fields and endeavors.

It may sound sexist and even racist for me to say this, but White Men and Men of other races are just more comfortable dealing with African- American Women as opposed to African- American Men. So in theory if you are in a social circle where you socialize, do buisness and generally and particpate generally attend in a potential large circle well of course the chances of meeting Black Men are slim so the chances of developing romance with men of other races increases thereby marriages.

Asian- American Men are fast becoming attractive to women of all races because they are economically stable, college educated and are becoming more social and more Americanized since Asian- American Women are marrying IR at higher levels. It shouldn’t be that big of a surprise, Black Women dating asian men two supposedly unwanted people would get together and form relationships or eventually marriages.

B and Rachel, I don’t buy the “lack of eligible Black Men in 2008 no more than I did in the 80’s when professional and stable working- class Black Men run that nonsense by me. In the 80’s I used to say there were no Black Rocker Boho types who would like Black Flag, Duran Duran, and Luther or Al Green so I dated White and Hispanic women for revenge for Black Women supposedly rejecting me. Then some astute Brothas told me you would get the same share of women of any race if you opened your eyes.

And in a way they were right, I have dated Professional, Working Class women of all races since 1987 and I am a working – class Black Male and I can hang in any social circle. I am tired of of hearing the same social pathologies reserved for black men by Black Women, White Men and the Media, This is what the Civil Rights movement was about, securing every opprounity for African- Americans to be able to enjoy the fruits of Ameican Life, economical, politcal and socially and that also means romance.

It just happens in the last 30 years, Black Women have taken the promise of those brave men and women who marched, were lynched, and violently killed for that right so nearly 50years we can talk about Black Women and Asian Men dating or marriage. But those kids will not be black males (they will be biracial) but they will live the father’s lifestyle and have his values which in many cases they will be culturally white, hispanic and asian that’s the way it is st8 no chaser.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:26 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To eric daniels:

“B and Rachel, I don’t buy the “lack of eligible Black Men in 2008 no more than I did in the 80’s when professional and stable working- class Black Men run that nonsense by me.”

You’re wrong. This is why we have things like census data.

According to the 2000 US Census, there are only 7 single black men for every 10 single black women and that does not count the 1 out of 15 black men who are incarcerated.

Therefore, there is a shortage of eligible black men.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:42 pm ¶
Ali wrote:

Thank you Treacle.

@Karl – Could you please provide some statistical evidence for your assertion that BF/WM couples out number WF/BM couples?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:59 pm ¶
Phil wrote:

As a Black male who is about to engaged to a Black female, I’m just going to speak from my standpoint as once-eligible man with an education and a job.

While I have been curious about other ethnicities in the past, I have always been surrounded by great examples of Black women. However, I did go through and can sympathize somewhat, with what some Black men say about today’s Black woman.

I know several single, Black mothers who are inching towards their mid-30s with NO prospects of a husband in sight. The most terrible part of that is, as far I know them personally, I look at them and know exactly WHY no man has married them. I cannot, as an educated man, generalize the mentalities of Black women, and it would not be fair to compare their lives to other kinds of women, but its hard not to look at the positions these women are in and criticize their views of men. Unrealistic, apathetic, sometime even neurotic views of Black men seemed to permeate their lives like a toxin. I really felt sorry for them, and still do. They won’t listen to me, as a big bro, when I tell them to give a man a chance–and I mean any KIND of man–but they just shut down and the revolving door of men keeps spinning.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:05 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

Treacle, There are 18 million Black Men Living in the U.S.A. 450,000 are in jail the other 500,000 are on probation or legal supervision. Most Black Men are not in jail, on the DL or mentally screwed up. Many Black Men are plumbers, construction workers, barbers, salespeople, small buisnesman or working 2-3 jobs like many other Americans. I would venture to say that the number of Americans holding advanced degrees is about 15-25 % percent of Americans.

Stop watching “Something New” and “Waiting to Inhale” or any Black Feminist track, most black men don’t call black women “bitches and hos” nor are they down at the gay bar picking up a ‘gay thug’ or a ‘drag queen’ nor are we gangbanging and killing each other for property we don’t own, and many of those stats you site generally only count Black Men who either have…

Advanced Degrees
Make a certain amount of money
Own a home, or have assets

Do you know the census and other agencies starts counting the number of children out of “wedlock ” at 14 years old. they don’t count cohabitation of adults , common- law marriages in many states or if the parents have an agreement to pay child support it still counts as a “bastard child” so Treacle stats can be twisted to prove or disprove a point.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:07 pm ¶
Resee wrote:

Why didn’t the author mention an asian man and a black woman? What’s wrong with that?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:13 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Eric –

Black feminists are not anti-men. Have you read anything I’ve posted on hip-hop feminism?

“Something New” does not bash black men. As a matter of fact, I think the movie showed a good representation of the internal turmoil one goes through when dating interracially when you expected to keep it within the race.

I hope you were making a joke with the Waiting to Inhale thing – I was a bit too young for that movie, so I cannot speak on that one.

And I notice you don’t critique movies like Baby Boy, that show ridiculously flawed representations of black relationships. Why not? Is it because movies like that are from a male perspective?

There are also many movies like The Wood and Brown Sugar that show the positive development of black relationships. (Colorism aside y’all.)

Also Eric, I publish your comments because the perspective you hold is much more common than the perspective often espoused here. But I am going to need you to critically consider your comments before you continue posting. I am not interested in rehashing the same ol’ “black women need to/black men need to” dynamic in these discussions. If you want to challenge ideas, fine. Just be mindful that we want to move this type of conversation forward.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:16 pm ¶
Resee wrote:

And another thing: Why is race ALWAYS an issue? I date the men I like and enjoy being with, therefore, I don’t care how many “eligible” black men, white men or whatever is out there – I date people because of a mutual interest, not because he passed the color test or because there’s a shortage of black men – why limit yourself when there’s so much beauty in the human race to choose from??? It’s just downright dumb.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:17 pm ¶
Nadra wrote:

Eric, I know it wasn’t meant to be funny, but your line about black men not being “down at the gay bar picking up a ‘gay thug’” made me laugh out loud. The whole “gay thug” phenomenon tickles me pink (no pun intended). And the DL thing is so ridiculous, as if black men are the only ones on the DL. I never understood that.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:19 pm ¶
Nadra wrote:

Reese, I did mention an Asian man and a black woman.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:20 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Resee –

What is this website called? Racialicious.

What was this website before? Mixed Media Watch, which tracked representations of mixed people and interracial relationships in the media.

If we were living in a post-racial utopia, this site and its previous form would have never been necessary.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:21 pm ¶
Solo wrote:

I have commented on this topic before. As a well educated black woman I must admit that it is hard to find black men that are on your level. I was fortunate. Now as a black woman I do feel abandoned by many black men. We know that you fall in love w/ a person not a color, however I think that far too often we see black men migrate to women of other races for the wrong reasons. Just as many in the Asian community believe that Asian women date white men for the prestige/status I believe the same thing for many black men.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:29 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To eric daniels:

If stats can be twisted to prove or disprove a point, then one wonders why you’re even using them.

In your first post, you say 75% of African American have college . Brushing aside the fact that you just made up an imaginary number in an attempt to prove a nonexistent point, 75% is a statistic.

In your response to a comment of mine, you say 15-25% of Americans hold advanced degrees. Once again, one wonders where you’re getting this information (I suspect that, as before, you simply pulled a number out of thin air) but 15-25% is also a statistic.

In other words, if statistics are so wrong, then don’t use them to support your argument. And please don’t insult my intelligence by making up numbers and expecting me to believe them when the data says otherwise.

Finally, if you’re going to attempt to debate, it helps if you stay on topic. My initial response was to your fallacious claim that there is no shortage of black men. When I responded with hard evidence that, in fact, there is a shortage of black men you interpreted that as invitation to attack my movie-watching preferences which, let’s be blunt, you simply don’t know. Nor did I make any references to thug culture or whether or not there are black men employed in legitimate professions like plumbing, construction work, and sales.

In sum, the words “red herring” come to mind after reading your response. You’re talking, but not really making a point nor addressing any of the points other people have made.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:33 pm ¶
Solo wrote:

As I read some of the post I really wanted to add this. Not to turn this convo into a black male/female issue but I truly believe that sometimes the two just do not understand each other. Historically speaking black women had to take care of the home and everything else while many black men were socially, economically, and mentally castrated. this strength that black women had to hold on to is still there today. Also one can argue that some black men arbor some resentment towards black women for this. Add this to the fact that many of us did not grow up in a traditional (dad/mom) home and I really think that we simply do not know what it takes to be in a sucessful relationship. Just some food for thought

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:35 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To Latoya Peterson:

You know, after thinking “red herring” in response to eric daniels’ comments, the very next thing I thought was “male privilege.”

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:38 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Also, see old post about What Black Men Think, it does an indepth debunking of the more black men in jail than in college myth, with a detailed mythology and a breakout of the difference between jail and prison.

http://www.racialicious.com/2007/09/12/movie-review-what-black-men-think/

@ ALL – Also, please note that the term “available black men” and “eligible black men” are relative.

For example, I could say that I personally have never had problems finding black men to date. However, that perspective is informed by (1) my age, at 24, (2) the city I live in, which has a sizeable black population in the city and the suburbs, (3) the work environment in my city which means a sizeable number of people who do not complete college still have access to decent jobs (4) the fact that I have not completed college and do not require that in men that I date and (5) the fact that neither of my parents has completed college – all though my father has completed his apprenticeship program – but have a strong entrepreneurial drive so I am more apt to look for that in a mate, as opposed to an education.

Our personal perspectives inform “truth.” When engaging in this conversation, please remember that.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:42 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

For clarification purposes, I was using “eligible black men” the same way the census uses it, as interchangeable with “single black men.”

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:53 pm ¶
B wrote:

eric daniels (#36),

I never said anything at all to the effect of their not being any good black men around. Don’t lump me into the “jail/married/dead/only-date-white-women” cryers (not saying that you’re one, Rachel–I’m just trying to clarify for e.d.). I said that in *my* classes in *my* major, there weren’t many black folk–of either gender. Once I declared my major, I was pretty intense w/studying, so I didn’t meet that many people who weren’t in my classes. I didn’t seek my husband out out of some sort of disgruntlement with black men.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:58 pm ¶
Jas wrote:

Interesting topic. I’m a black male who’s never actually been with a black woman before. All my partners have been White or Asian women. Not that I’ve been opposed to dating Black women but my social circle is for the most part very white and I tend to be interested in people in my circles. The only other blacks in that circle tend to be guys so that’s not really going to do much for me relationship wise.

I can definitely recognize (I could say understand but I guess deep down I really don’t) the anger and frustration of Black women and Asian men but I think IR dating out of spite not only doesn’t help address the issue but I think it’s a bit unhealthy to base a relationship on a petty emotion like that.

Yes there are many black males in prison and yes not all black males have advanced degrees. I live in Chicago which has the second highest black population in the country and I know more than enough single black guys. Many of whom can’t get black women to pay them the time of day because they don’t wear designer clothes or fulfill other superficial requirements some women have. This includes women who are single, have kids, obviously in bad health, or a combination of the three which isn’t uncommon.

I’ve had black women reject me because I “don’t talk black”, “don’t have a swagger”, “talk too smart (this was after telling some black women I was talking to that if I won the lottery I’d probably try to invest a quarter of my winnings)” and other things. I’ve also seen black women reject black men because they weren’t on the same level economically or educationally.

I’ve also seen plenty of black men who wouldn’t give black women the time of day no matter what she was like with plenty of their own superficial and stereotypical reasons.

And I know this isn’t always the case but I’ve talked to a lot of women who don’t seem to see the difference between there not being enough black men and there not being enough black men who meet their standards. I know Latoya said she didn’t want to turn this into another tit for tat, black vs black thread so I’ll try to abide by that because I find it just as pointless as she does.

But I do think it’s important to understand and discuss the specific reasons behind these attitudes even if they are stereotypical/ignorant but that’s obviously for another thread.

I think things would be much better off if people weren’t focused so much on who people they don’t even know are dating inter racially and started focusing on themselves and what they want and actively pursing it. If that means dating IR then do what you want. I’ve gotten dirty stares, comments, accusations from White men, Black women, Asian men, etc and generally just ignore it. They don’t know me and I don’t know them. And you can’t please the world.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:17 pm ¶
Resee wrote:

LaToya Peterson –

And your comment means??? I really don’t get what the point of your comment to me was “If we were living in a post-racial utopia, this site and its previous form would have never been necessary.” Excuse me for expressing my abhorrence of prejudice and racial divisions! I am CLEARLY aware of the state of our world and how focused we are on race, and it eats away at me. I don’t think it is inappropriate for me to point out the obvious – issues over interracial dating is just plain dumb. It has no foundation based in logic and it should be totally irrelevant. The sad fact of the matter is, however, it’s not. People still want to look down (or up, depending on the person’s self-view) on others who MAY simply be dating someone of another race because that person is a GOOD person. I ‘m just sick of all of it. So, I’m sorry if I come off stating something that sounds like it belongs in the fairy tales, but can you honestly tell me that the it makes sense that the world is not over the fact that there are different variations of pigmentation?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:24 pm ¶
Cara wrote:

Historically, white men have been “entitled” to “date, marry, or even rape (historically)” whom ever they chose. There’s not really a social stigma attached to their relationships. If he dates a sistah…fellahs are like “hummmm nice pull.” Same with a Latina or Asian woman (though I have heard bad stereotypes associated with the later wm/af relationship). But for the most part I think they are not stereotyped.

As for other interracial relationships, I have a few thoughts….

1. I find it very difficult to overlook the reception I get from brothers (blk men) who are involved in a relationship with a non-blk female. It’s like they anticipate a debate or conflict and they try to shield themselves by first blountly stating thier dating preference (as if I were pressed to know) or two making some kind of insult (as if they knew how I felt about interracial dating). … I’ve found several of these incounters awkward and hurtful. It really doesn’t bother me that black males “date/marry” outside of their race, as long as they do it for love – not self hatred of any other reason that draws focus away from (no to) supporting a healthy relationship. However it does bother me that they choose to marry or date others races b/c “HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH ME” (blk women in general) and/or “A PROBLEM WITH HIMSELF”. I can’t tolerate self hatred in any form. If you love a woman marry her – end of story. But don’t chose your mate out of opposition to the women of your own race or because you are ashamed of your race in some way (this goes for all men not just black men). I have come in contact with guys like that and its weird.

2. I don’t spend my time worrying about those who don’t find me attractive, I focus on those who do. And if a non-blk man finds me attractive, then that’s wonderful. DON’T HATE — DATE! You mentioned AMBW relationships, and I ahve dated a couple of Asian men. I’m most attracitve to those who are very culturally sound and who are proud of their heritage. That really matters to me, no matter who the man is. I don’t have a preference, I never have. I love men, in all of their variety ).

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:27 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Resee –

As I said, you need to remember where you are. Saying thing like “oh, we should all be over this right now, this is so dumb” is (1) silencing and (2) counterproductive. On this site we have discussions about race and how it impacts different levels of society.

Discussing these matters moves us forward toward the goal, which is to challenge people’s perceptions of interracial dating. I suggest you go back and read the other discussions (click the tag that says interracial relationships) to see why we are discussing this in the first place. Generally speaking, discussions around the internet and in real life on interracial dating fall into the same basic binaries over and over again.

In order to move past that, we are dissecting the stereotypes involved and directly challenging each other on long held biases.

You pointing out what is obvious to many people on this board is not helping the conversation.

If you are sick of these types of conversations, they are labeled “interracial dating.” Do not participate.

But that argument “Why is race ALWAYS an issue?” like its companion arguments “we should be colorblind” and “I don’t see race” are much more harmful than helpful. They do not challenge people’s ideas, they participate in silencing the views of other people who have had race impact them negatively in these areas, and they add no value to the conversation.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:34 pm ¶
Resee wrote:

Latoya -

You TOTALLY misinterpreted my meaning for posting my previous comment. In NO WAY am I trying to silence the comments or this forum. Believe me, I’ve read mostly everyone’s comments, and I find many of them quite intriguing. It is not my intention to NOT discuss this at all – obviously, it’s still a problem.
My intention is to say what no one else is saying – how silly it is for us to have a forum like this anyway, not that the forum is silly. I may be somewhat of an idealist (and, I don’t know if this means anything, but I am a black female), but I am totally okay with my being an idealist and wanting us to get past all of this. I guess my theory is if I say it enough and enough people feel the way I do or change their views, we can actually start to see a significant difference in my lifetime.
I’m just sick of hearing that a black man was severly beaten by a some why guys for dating a white woman or having a black man call me a bitch for walking down the street with my white boyfriend.
In no way am I trying to hinder this dialogue. I’m just saying that I wish the world (whites, blacks, asians, mexicans, etc.) would GET OVER IT so forums like this will not be necessary.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:43 pm ¶
Lynne J wrote:

@Resee: I personally don’t think it just about variations of pigmentation. That is overly simplistic. That type of thinking oftentimes lines up with a color-blind ideology, but all I hear when people say that they don’t see race, or that race, or racial divisions should not longer be an issue is that you want to sweep history and hundreds of years of racial oppression, white supremacy and dominance under the rug as if that were even possible. My race is not just pigmentation it is a culture, it is a lifestyle and it is values. Ideally I would like to marry a man who shares those values as well as my cultural beliefs some of which are different from mainstream North American culture. I want children that look like me, that look like my parents and my grandparents. I don’t believe that is stupid. I actually think that is normal.

@Jas: Careful Jas…your self-hatred and misogyny towards black women is showing. First, you say you have never dated a black woman and that your social circle is very white. Also, that the black men you do socialize with are apart of this circle. Then later you claim to know so much about black women, who they date, who they reject (namely you because you are so smart and not a thug) and what their standards may, or may not be. How do you know so much about the dating habits of black women, if they are not part of your social circle, or life? Osmosis?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:53 pm ¶
Shannon wrote:

I am a black woman who’s dated intra and interracially and there are very few things that annoy me more than the assumption that I am dating someone out of spite. To me when someone says that to me especially someone who knows me, I feel like they must think I’m an ugly shallow person to be using another human being like that.

I’ve heard the same thing from people when I was dating a black woman and frankly at this point I don’t even give the question a response. If someone really thinks that’s why I am dating someone they aren’t worth my time or energy.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:54 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Resee –

In order for people to get over it, they have to understand WHY what they think about IR dating is wrong. And analyze why people hold contradictory opinions. And engage with those ideas, because more often than not a lot of the people holding those opinions think it’s just the truth. They don’t want anyone to judge them on dating interracially by still cast judgment on others. Or, they see nothing wrong with being pro-interracial dating…because after all, black men/asian men/latino men are so horrible and patriarchal that there’s no other option *but* to turn to white men. (Heard that argued.) And I have heard how Asian women/black women/latina women are just so difficult to deal with, white women are a welcome relief. (Heard that too.) And people who hold these beliefs are on interracial boards in full effect, talking about a better way of dating, when they really mean, just their way.

The same thing goes for all the women and men who believe interracial dating means POC/white – because people from different groups or ethnicities never date each other.

And Resee, I can understand you are just trying to put forth your viewpoint on the situation, but we encounter comments that read exactly the same way as your comment at #43 all day long, on all kinds of posts relating to interracial dating, interracial adoption and raising biracial children. I believe you when you say you didn’t mean it that way, but so many more people do. Please choose your words more carefully.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:54 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Lynn – Your comment stands (and it was a good catch) but I will strongly caution you against the use of the words “self-hating” on this board. You were right to call Jas out, but using a loaded term like self hating tends to start fights and undermine discussions. Your comment is just as strong without that word.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:59 pm ¶
fejack wrote:

interethnic dating

Two persons from different ethnic background but with a similar social or academic background will probably have much more in common than two persons from the same ethnic background but with different social or academic baggage.

The lowest common denominator however is that dating will always involve a contrast between two family cultures: each person comes from a family with different habits, so there will ALWAYS be the need to reach out to accept and respect the culture and tradition of the other half.

Even the main ethnic groups tend to discriminate amongst themselves: not so long ago in the US, people like the Irish or the Italians were’nt exactly considered as whites, and it was not proper for an Anglo-Saxon to date -say- an Italian, or vice-versa. The comedy “My big fat greek wedding” portrays the same attitude stemming from Greeks towards other ethnies. To this day, in countries like Italy (where I have lived for 8 years), dating a person from Central Europe or Eastern Europe always raises suspicion, event though the skin complexion is the same.

I think character and qualities of the other half are valid enough reasons to commit to a relationship. There shouldn’t be any need for more justifications.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:08 pm ¶
bertie wrote:

—-Our personal perspectives inform “truth.” When engaging in this conversation, please remember that—–

Latoya–God bless you for this statement. I really wonder (from a black male perspective) how much class informs the “truth” of these gender wars. There are plenty of “working class” and even blue collar folks (guv’ment workers, teachers, small business owners, firemen, cops, military careerist, etc.) who despite having varying degrees of education may have similar economic lifestyles. Thus a non-college educated army staff seargent may be an “eligible” man for a college educated RN. I wonder do working class BWs feel the “shortage” as much as say women who have white collar jobs requiring an college/advanced degree and thus the same in their mates? Sorry for the off-topic-ness of this post.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:14 pm ¶
Kali wrote:

london wrote:

“interracial relationships are the norm over here in london…
my generation – i am 42 and a first gen black briton – have grown up with mixed race kids and known their parents…
it could be that most kids here in london now are mixed.. they are mainly all shades of brown..
i don’t even notice..
couples are couples and kids are kids.. .”

i am a south asian female married to a WM for decades and we have two smashing (young adult) children.

i love london’s outlook above.

i can affirm from my own experince that matings based on mutual admiration and enjoyment (romance?) and shared values (eg beliefs in humanism, social liberalism, in education, in closeness and sharing with family & friends in our case) are far more important to the fate of a relationship than such a tiny piece of the puzzle as skin pigmentation.

or perhaps skin pigmentation can be as big or small a piece of the puzzle as you let it be?

the world and its views are changing fast folks: you are going to have a predominantly khaki colored world – may as well embrace it!

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:16 pm ¶
Alikat wrote:

All of this discussion suddenly reminded me that in my freshman year of high school, I took an Asian American young man to the Sadie Hawkins dance. My motivation for asking him was simply that he had been nice and friendly to me, a new girl at school. I didn’t give any thought to the cultural differences. He had no hesitation about going to the dance with a black girl, and was a wonderful date. My best friend, also a black girl, asked my date’s brother to the dance, and he was very happy to attend with her as well. My friend was a student leader, very well known and well liked, cute and smart as hell, but the black boys at our school were not interested in dating her or me (I was no slouch myself). This was in the mid-1970s. Sometime later on along the way, I came to consider only black men for dating and relationships. I’ll have to spend some time reflecting on how and why that happened. Now I have come full circle and look at men as men. I am free to date whomever I want, and all good men have an equal opportunity to date me. I will no longer restrict myself.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:20 pm ¶
tybris wrote:

I think its important to emphasize the role popular media has played in the racial dating disparities, and probably the subsequent backlash against them by the people that are portrayed negatively.

Some one had brought this up in an earlier comment and I think its important to bring it up again. In movies, television shows and other forms of media, white males are often given free reign to date women of all races. It is not uncommon for white men to be seen with Asian women, hispanic women and African American women. In fact it is deemed “acceptable” by the general viewing public and minorites are not just expected to accept it but to embrace it. However minority male/white female pairings are a lot less common perhaps because the producers fear the “general” public wont approve and therefore wont spend money to see the movie. I see it as a viscious cycle. The less minority male/white female pairings happen in film the less likely the “general” public is accepting of them in future films. Producers therefore end up recasting minority males as “token” largely emasulated characters. As a minority male this is infuriating. Its not that i care who the female members of racial group date, its that they are given so many reasons in popular media to date white males. When a white guy is portrayed as “strong, smart, rich, and a leader” and his minority friend is there for ethnic humor largely at expense of his own racial group I get frustrated.

Sorry about the rant. =)

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:26 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:

I’m white, female, straight, and have dated men of all ethnicities. No cat-haters though!

As far as AM/WF relationships are concerned, from my own perspective: White guys hit on me. Latino guys hit on me. Black guys hit on me. Biracial guys hit on me. Asian guys…I’ve had to chase ‘em. I’m cute and smart and fun to be around, so it’s not like I’m Sadie Hawkins or anything.

It seems *from my perspective* that if Asian guys are not getting the play with all races of women that their white, black, Latino, multiracial brothers are – it’s not because women are picky gatekeepers. THEY aren’t doing enough chasing.

If a particular Asian guy is sitting home alone, I want to know – is he asking women out? Actually asking black or white or Latina women? Do Asian men think “what’s the use, no-one wants me?” Most women would rather be the pursued than the pursuer. Him that asks, gets!

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:29 pm ¶
Ejunco wrote:

Im Filipino(MALE) and I’ll be the first, or second or third to probably say it if I do see a Asian friend or some random Asian male go out with a white girl, I’ll probably say good! Why? Not because to give the Asian girls the dirty finger, but for me personally it’s because I rarely see Asian males go out with other females outside their race. Why? It’s because of all these stereotypes hell I wanted to go out with this Mexican/Italian chick out once but she gave me the “lets Just Be Friends vibe” and Yes I do feel sometimes “anti-asian girls goin out with white guys” and sometimes I’m not because I know some pretty okay white guys as acquaintances . But I give props to the Asian guys who do go out with girls outside their ethnic group

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:35 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

I’ll throw my hat into the ring here. I’m a black male in my early twenties. College educated, employed, and single as the number 1. I gave that biographical information so that you understand where I’m coming from.

I think 99& of the conversations on IR relationships would never occur if two things happened – (1) People learn to mind their own friggin business and (2) Folks in IR relationships stop pushing acting like IR relationships are gifts from martian gods.

Why should some black women feel rejected because some other black guy (they probably don’t know) is dating some other chick with a different skin color? Is the chip on the shoulder that big?
No where in my bible or any document have I seen where it says that black men were put here on Earth for only black women and vice versa. I’ve never been in a relationship in my life and I have weak game. All the girls I’ve ever approached have been black. I’ve been shot down enough times by all of them. I don’t for one second feel rejected by black women. I got shot down by these chicks because I had no game, I was not their type, I was too boring, I was not peter pan. Who the heck knows but my point is I’m not running all around the internets yapping on about how black women have failed me and other such rubbish. Cast a wide net into a bigger body of water and ye shall catch more fish.
Also what is it with all these comments talking about justification for being in an IR relationship? No one needs to justify anything to anyone except themselves. I normally don’t chime in on discussions on IR relationships but I feel I must speak my mind because the foolishness is way too much for me to ignore. What I see in most of these type topics is a group of people who have the “I will only date/marry a man from the __ race” mentality bash other people who don’t have that mentality. If you want to date only black women, good for you…I don’t care. If you want to date only Malaysian men, good for you…I don’t care. It has zip all to do with anybody but you. Who you date is none of my business. Your reasons for dating them is none of my business and I don’t want to know it good or bad. The viability of your relationship is none of my business and I don’t care. What you do in your life is none of my business.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:45 pm ¶
Lynne J wrote:

@Latoya: I actually thought long and hard before I wrote that term and certain things in his post drove me to say it. However, I respect your point and won’t use the term again.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:46 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

I love this quote:

8. lunanoire wrote:

“If you’re in an environment where few people are interested in someone of your race/gender, it’s a blow to the psyche. Everybody needs love.”

I was in a class (at Hampshire College) where the possible evolutionary psychological reasons for racial preference were being discussed (well, more like “rehashed” rather than critically examined–clichés about Asian women being appealing to white men because they look young, etc.), and as an Asian man who is really really tired of being so alienated and subjected to stereotypes and prejudice specifically designed to emasculate me (short, shy, small penis, romantically unsophisticated, crude to women, etc.), I began offering a dissenting opinion by saying, “That’s a political issue,” meaning to turn the discussion to the racial balance of power in America, but was quickly silenced by the continuing recitation of “biological” reasons why Asian women date non-Asian men at such a higher rate than Asian men date… anybody.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:47 pm ¶
Bill wrote:

It may be ignorant on my part, but I am a white male dating a very beautiful black female, and maybe it’s because I live in Los Angeles, but these issues seem so silly to me. This is 2008, and although I know that there is still plenty of prejudice in our country, people are people. I grew up in a very small, predominantly white town in Upstate NY, and I can imagine that interacial couples there still get stared at and talked about.

We have been together for 2 years and I’ve not noticed anyone being obvious about having an issue with us. We joke around about the differences in our upbringing because of our races, but we do not even concider ourselves to be interacial. We are two people who fit into each other’s lives perfectly and happen to be of different races. I pray for those people who are unable to get past color, and accept people for who they are. The goal should be to find someone you can mesh with, and not a specific race! I know, I am a dreamer, but who cares!

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:00 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

I swear the next time I see someone accuse another person of “self hate”, I’;; kidnap my neighbor’s kittens and shoot them. If you don’t want dead kittens on your hands then stop dropping bull crap terms like “self hate”.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:10 pm ¶
Gorgeous Black Women wrote:

I am a black woman and I have only had interracial relationships; that does not at all reflect on my dating preferences. I am open-minded when it comes to race and the reason I haven’t had any relationships with black men is because those I have expressed even the slightest bit of interest in have not been interested. I have been turned down by a non-black man… drum roll please… once ever. I understand that part of the reason for this is because the black men I’ve been around have been in very high demand due to the limited supply through college and graduate school. I am not aggressive and so I gets no love. I don’t really resent black men for this. It’s understandable. There are a bunch of black and non-black women basically throwing themselves at them. What’s the incentive exactly to be in a relationship when you know that there are several gorgeous, intelligent women you can call up at any hour for a roll in the hay? I can’t hate them for it. If I were sitting around waiting for a black man, I probably would be resentful but that’s never been the case.

At this point as I near my mid 20s, I don’t assume that I’m going to get married and have children. I feel like I’m going to be a “starter wife” at best because I’ve found that having a relationship with a black woman is a completely different ball game from actually marrying one. Even many open-minded men just don’t see little dark babies in their futures. C’est la vie. Live your life and if you find someone to share it with, great. If not, don’t let it keep you from living your life and don’t settle or compromise.

For SOME black women and Asian men, I can certainly see that partners of another race may feel like a major compromise. If race is that big of a deal to you, then you really shouldn’t be in an interracial relationship. You shouldn’t be with someone if they’re your consolation prize which is exactly why you need to not worry about the black men/Asian women who don’t want you. Do you want to be their consolation prize?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:12 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

68. Ailurophile

“Asian guys…I’ve had to chase ‘em.”

This is an often-used argument that is well meaning (there’s nothing wrong with Asian guys, they just have to get up and try!) but ultimately frustrating (what, it’s Asian guys’ fault?).

I think it ultimately comes down to the culture shock that Asians seem to feel so strongly when East meets West.

There seems to be a great divide between the responsibilities and expectations 1st generation Asian-American parents place on their sons versus their daughters. I was raised with traditional values with respect to the priority that dating would have in my life (only after I get my education and have an established career!). Girls are raised with these values, too, but it seems that perhaps owing to the traditional male role of supporting a family after an arranged marriage, Asian-American guys espouse this conservatism much more deeply than AA girls, who have the added pressure of being considered highly desirable by potential boyfriends. I guess Asian guys find it easier to follow the parental dictate of abstinence since we don’t get so much female attention in the first place.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:32 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

73. Bill

Racism is not “silly,” and neither are the very real feelings of abandonment and betrayal Asian men suffer because of the interracial dating disparity.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:36 pm ¶
Gorgeous Black Women wrote:

“If you’re in an environment where few people are interested in someone of your race/gender, it’s a blow to the psyche. Everybody needs love.”
“Why should some black women feel rejected because some other black guy (they probably don’t know) is dating some other chick with a different skin color? Is the chip on the shoulder that big?”

I live in Boston, Massachusetts. Black women are VERY unpopular here, including at many of the local colleges. White women are very unpopular at MIT but that’s a whole ‘nother topic. I actually stare when I see two young black people or two young Asian people together here with the exception of same-sex relationships. I am even more shocked if I overhear them and they are American. The only people I’ve noticed with any sort of interest in dating black women are white Hispanic men. I get hit on ONLY if I go to Jamaica Plain, Roxbury or Dorchester, and I don’t really think 15 or 60 year old men trying to holla count. Though it’s still appreciated. I have to wonder what impact it has on the black women who are born and raised here. If ever you want to see a lot of beautiful, chronically single black women, come on up. Of course, black women don’t get dibs on black men nor do Asian men get dibs on Asian women but I’m quite sure that if the situation were reversed, black men and Asian women would feel rather undesirable themselves. When the scales are tipped this much, it’s impossible not to notice though I don’t believe it entitles we “undesirables” to attack the “desirables.” New York City is just a train ride away.

I’ve always wondered why black women and Asian men don’t date each other. I’m open to it. Overall, I think the allegiance and/or family expectation to find “one of your kind” is greater for both groups. I also don’t think we have even positive views of each other overall. The default for Asian men expanding their options? White women. For black women? Hispanic whites and sometimes non-Hispanic whites.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:40 pm ¶
Kali wrote:

@Alikat
“Now I have come full circle and look at men as men. I am free to date whomever I want, and all good men have an equal opportunity to date me. I will no longer restrict myself.”

Bravo to that…and to middle age and wisdom.

*pours another shot of single blend scotch *

@Bill…I’m moving to California…I’m sick of being asked how we met and if ours is a second marriage (!!) blah blah blah.. here on the East coast…

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:46 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:

@GorgeousBlackWoman #75: “Don’t be a consolation prize” – I agree 100%! This goes for all genders and races and combinations thereof! For those who are tempted to date someone as a “last resort” even though you wish they were different – how would YOU like it if YOU were someone’s “consolation prize?” Not much, I’d wager.

I never wanted children and now am unable to produce them, so I’m not looking for a perfect “sperminator.” Though in the past some guys have thought I’d be a wonderful mother to their beautiful light-skinned children. NO GO. Not only is that degrading (I’m a person, not a brood mare, kthx) I AM CHILDFREE. My cats are my children and any man who wants to be with me has to accept that.

@Elton #72: So much of the evo-psycho “human nature” explanations are BS. Ev-psych is both sexist and racist. Besides, they talk out of both sides of their mouths – we women are supposed to not care about a man’s physical attributes, only his wallet, so in that case WHY would a man’s build or penis size matter? We’re supposed to want “good providers.” Therefore, by ev-psych logic, there ought to be a lot more WF/AM couples because of the number of educated AM professionals. But nooooo, when it comes to IR dating, the ev-psychs maintain that we women want muscular hunks! And so do AF’s, who go after those “masculine” white guys. It’s always the women’s fault…

I don’t think any “dating disparity” can be blamed on one gender or the other. For one thing, not everyone is straight. For another, in heterosexual relationships, the man is the initiator. If there’s a gender disparity, maybe the men aren’t doing the asking…

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:47 pm ¶
queerhapa wrote:

Excuse me if this has been brought up already, but are we only talkin’ heterosexual couples? What about the desirability of Asian men by other men (of any race), or of black women by other women (of any race)? Do the same hierarchies of desirability apply?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:55 pm ¶
lunanoire wrote:

Kali,

Colorism is real; we wil never have a 100% khaki-colored world (see Brazil, etc.). Not to mention that siblings don’t necessary sare the same skin color.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:56 pm ¶
Shauna wrote:

@Lynne J

“I want children that look like me, that look like my parents and my grandparents. I don’t believe that is stupid. I actually think that is normal.”

Are you saying that mixed children don’t look like one/both of their parents, and therefore you don’t want to date interracially? I think that mixed children do look like their parents, its just that some people can’t see past race. For example an article in Time had a picture of Obama next to a picture of his mom when she was younger and they looked very much alike.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:58 pm ¶
Jas wrote:

“@Jas: Careful Jas…your self-hatred and misogyny towards black women is showing. First, you say you have never dated a black woman and that your social circle is very white. Also, that the black men you do socialize with are apart of this circle. Then later you claim to know so much about black women, who they date, who they reject (namely you because you are so smart and not a thug) and what their standards may, or may not be. How do you know so much about the dating habits of black women, if they are not part of your social circle, or life? Osmosis?”

My social circle is very white but I’m not completely isolated from black women. When I was at University the school was 87% white and about 5% black. The town I lived in while at school was about 90% white and 3% black. I currently live home in a predominantly upper-class black area and go to a predominantly black community college and am in the nursing program where the vast majority of students are black and female. So my classmates, neighbors, and co-workers are diverse and do include many black females who I talk to.

I do have black male friends who are outside of that circle but haven’t kept in much contact with them since Highschool since we all pretty much scattered across the country and did our own thing since graduation. Some joined the military, some went to school, some worked, and some I haven’t heard from since HS.

I also frequent black forums, discussion groups, read about racial issues, and yes I do talk to and associate with other blacks but the majority of my closest friends and most of them are white. Relationships and IR relationships were also an interest of study for me while I was working on my Psych degree in college. Maybe I should have been more specific but I really didn’t feel like that was relevant information. I’m not a minority in some Caucasian bubble and didn’t mean to come off that way.

I wasn’t generalizing all black women or black men. I was simply stating what I’ve experienced in my life and what I’ve seen in regards to IR and dating in my personal experiences as it relates to blacks and how I’ve seen other blacks, male and female, deal with and address the issue. I also don’t recall claiming that I’m “smart” and “not a thug.” I simply said that I think there are SOME black women who have certain standards when they’re looking for a black partner, some of which are superficial or ridiculous, and when those standards aren’t met SOME will immediately claim there are no good black men and will blame IR or some other irrelevant issue instead of taking a look at their priorities. Once again I’m not saying all or even most, I’m saying some. The vast majority of black men are not in jail. The vast majority of black men aren’t getting love in da club with other dudes. The vast majority of black men aren’t running to white women. And the vast majority of black men aren’t completely uneducated or hiding in caves. I’m not saying that ALL black women think this way, but I’ve noticed that black males and females who date interracially and feel the need to justify it or defend themselves by complaining about their the opposite gender of their racial group by stereotyping them just as badly as any racially ignorant white individual would.

I’m not saying that there isn’t a disparity and that black women don’t face obstacles in terms of marriage and dating. I’m saying that there are also other contributing factors that relate to this issue that just don’t have to do with IR and the rate of black men in prison.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 7:36 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@ Everyone –

I see Carmen held down the comments while I was out. Glad to see the discussion progressing and you checking each other. And I really want to express how happy I am with the general flow of all these conversations. There have been some bumps, but we are mostly rolling.

Now, I can just sit there and hope y’all don’t start to hate me for what I post next week.

@Kelvin – Uh-huh. No experience you said? I’m going to harass you harder next time.

@QueerHapa – The conversation is way hetero, isn’t it? Feel free to weigh in at any time. I approached four different queer writers I knew to write for this series and they have all been shirking my emails or don’t want to write about it. I begged one of my homeboys for a favor – his piece should be coming in next week, but I gave him a few different topics so I am not sure what the final piece will cover.

Any one else that is queer and willing to write about their experience dating interracially (or not) feel free to drop me an email: latoya@racialicious.com

@Lynne J – Thank you for understanding.

@Everyone – Do we need some posts on IR Dating and class? Because I am seeing some good points (and some serious assumptions) made.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:13 pm ¶
Kali wrote:

@lunanoire
‘khaki’ was a metaphor.
my own kids are multi-hued – rather like the racialicious logo (perhaps that is why i like it so much) – my kids are not easily labeled ‘black’ or ‘white’ .i feel that in a couple decades with a ever increasing ‘mixed-race’ population no one will bother to pigeon-hole people in this way – anxiety about racial purity is not going to prevent this.

i look forward to a hapa world that is accepting of all sexual preferences.

Latoya’s stated her aim of getting people to dissect and understand their own and others’ feelings about ‘interracial’ dating – so i don’t think it hurts to hear the point of view of people who have *lived* the interracial option (at an even less accepting time) – and feel happy and fulfilled with their choice.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:15 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Gorgeous Black Woman
“Of course, black women don’t get dibs on black men nor do Asian men get dibs on Asian women but I’m quite sure that if the situation were reversed, black men and Asian women would feel rather undesirable themselves.”

I can only speak for myself on this one. While I really understand where you are coming from, I still would not care if the reverse was the case. It’s not like women (Black/White/Asian/Venusian) are falling over themselves at my front door vying to date me and I’m still alive.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:20 pm ¶
B wrote:

“Kelvin wrote:
I swear the next time I see someone accuse another person of “self hate”, I’ll kidnap my neighbor’s kittens and shoot them. If you don’t want dead kittens on your hands then stop dropping bull crap terms like ’self hate.’”
ROTFL! Save the kittens!

@Kali #79 re:”I’m sick of being asked how we met and if ours is a second marriage (!!)”
That happens to ya’ll too? It annoys the heck out of me. My current strategy is to politely ask it back whenever someone in a couple asks.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:20 pm ¶
Shelby wrote:

Demographics: I’m a 21 yr old black woman from a middle class (99%white) background.

I can identify SO much with the other black women here who haven’t gotten ANY love from anyBODY. And it does chip away at my self-esteem. Big time. No one approached me, ever, in high school and I figured that was just because white guys didn’t date black girls in my town. But the REAL blow didn’t come til college when virtually no guy, of any race, has ever approached me. I would love to be in a relationship with a caring person of any race, but it just doesn’t happen. The only time black guys try to holla is if they think I’m mixed. Once they find out both my parents are black they’re done. And the only other guys that even try to talk to me are drunk white boys who want me to shake my @ss for them.
Needless to say it’s all really disheartening. And I could be in a relationship right now if I lowered my standards and allowed myself to be exoticized. But who really wants that?
It’s hard being aware. I can’t forget the fact that, as a black woman, I have virtually no value to the general population. And I see this fact confirmed just about every day :/

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:21 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Latoya
“Uh-huh. No experience you said? I’m going to harass you harder next time.”

Have at it :=)

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:25 pm ¶
Kali wrote:

@B
i just re-read your initial post. the ‘how/where did you meet’ is voyeurism poorly concealed and does not deserve an answer!! high five from me to you

i also get ”your english is sooo good” from whites colleagues (i have postgrad qualifications too) and my answer used to be ”and so is yours” – but as i get older i really can’t be bothered to respond at all

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:35 pm ¶
Alvin Lin wrote:

We live in a world where global (Western) mass media images constantly degrade or marginalized Asian men, while exotifying or objectifying Asian women almost always with White men.

Mass media has a huge unconscious effect on everyone’s opinions, preferences, behaviors, and even attraction. Asians are especially susceptible to status ‘branding’, even in terms of ‘branding’ men.

This results in dysfunction where Asians on both genders have self hate or White worship. Obviously Asian women have more opportunity to act on these brainwashed views, but as this page attests, plenty of Asian males put White people on a pedestal too, but they fight an uphill battle to show their inferiority complex since other women are conditioned with negative views toward Asian men.

Mod Note: Oh dear God, the kittens! Alvin, you make a good point about media images, but let’s stay away from the descriptor “self-hating.” It is not conducive to a conversation, and generally only serves to start a fight.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:43 pm ¶
jvansteppes wrote:

Eric Daniels, I find it interesting that in critiquing arguments about a lack of available black men you refer to the myth of the down low when not one person had brought that concept up. I’m also confused as to whether you’re trying to deny that there are black queer/GLB men. The comment about being” down at the gay bar picking up a ‘gay thug” calls on sensationalist ideas of black men who have sex with men or transgendered people instead of deflating it; there is nothing wrong with black men who ARE down at the gay bar picking up whoever they like. Period.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:44 pm ¶
Colin wrote:

I’m not sure why Asian men even bother talking to Asian women about this issue anyway. It’s not like Asian women are seriously willing to listen. Even if they do listen, they specifically counter with “OMG! You can’t get a date! Stop being so bitter!” or the ever popular “You don’t own me!”

It’s retarded.

Is there a reason why Asian men don’t voice their opinion? Sure. It’s for fear of being typecasted. It’s ironic that minorities whine about it when it’s done to them by whites though.

Deep down, I know Asian women know exactly why Asian men are angry. They just don’t want to admit it and just play dumb. Either that or they’re honestly less intelligent than non-Asian women. When I’ve spoken to non-Asian women about it, they under the full scope of why Asian men are angry in under five minutes.

I think the issue is unique to Asian men because it’s still ok to be racist towards Asians in America, specifically Asian men. Asians have no racial protection in terms of political correctness.

While some think it’s an defeatist attitude, maybe Asian American men should head back to Asia. Americanized Asian men are popular there.

Mod Note – This comment is all kinds of wrong. I’ll let the commenters take this one. Paragraphs 1,2,3, and 4 are all ripe for the picking. Any takers?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:47 pm ¶
Mike wrote:

Wow this topic again?

I dont know any more, I used to get bent out of shape about it, because I never got the need for people to “rationalize” there preferences.

You have staements like “I have only had interracial relationships;” backed by “Black women are VERY unpopular here, ” cant be that unpopular.

Or the statistc hounds that love to point out that there are not enough “good” black men but plenty enough who rather not date them.

And why is it that it always women who are in mixed relationships are the majority of commentaors?

Hell better yet there the ones with jones for this subject.

If black men are the ones setting interrelationship dating world records how come you dont see them raising hell en mass on these posts?

And why does this topic come up every two months?

Mod Note - The topic is going to keep coming up until we can have a conversation about dating outside of our respective races without rehashing the black or asian gender wars. Go back and search for the “Open Thread” interracial dating post as this is the third or fourth post in a multi-post series. Once again, if you do not want to participate in these discussions, all posts are clearly marked “Interracial Dating.” Skip them.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:01 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To Latoya Peterson:

I’d like a post on interracial dating and class. It’ll make me think about how my class privilege plays into my dating behaviors, and I’m trying to become more self-conscious about the benefits of class anyway. It’s hard to say “I’m a feminist!” if I’m ignoring the huge elephant in the room named socioeconomic status.

As regards queer dating…though I’m no expert on the subject (being in a hetero relationship now, I’m the recipient of straight privilege), I don’t recall getting any kind of race-related commentary when I date white women.

Our sexuality and our gender were the most salient things. I wonder if this is because both I and the women I date “look” straight and typically feminine.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:21 pm ¶
Korolev wrote:

People like who they like, and that can be across ethnic lines. Nobody should feel ashamed for being attracted to someone they like.

Human beings are rather simple when it comes to matters such as sex or relationships. Somehow I strongly doubt that anyone starts a relationship thinking “ah-hah, this is my primary method of subliminally rejecting my culture and betraying my people! Surely this relationship is the perfect vehicle in which to express my self-loathing and complete my goal of destroying my background!” I doubt anyone thinks that when getting into a relationship. Usually…. it’s, um, a lot more simple and visual than that.

Now, a lot has been made of “racial fetishes”, and they exist, sure. But pretty much everyone has a “fetish” of some sort. If men tend to date skinnier woman, do they have “thin” fetish? And when woman constantly tell me “I’ll only date taller men”, isn’t that a type of fetish itself? And if someone exclusively dates within their own ethnic group, isn’t that a form of “fetish”?

At the end of the day, if someone really believes that all races are 100% equal, that all of humanity is truly united by our shared genetic template, then they wouldn’t care. Those who argue that inter-racial relationships “destroy self-esteem” are secretly racists – as in, they believe differences exist between races.

Again, if you truly believe that race is unimportant, you wouldn’t care who was dating who. All of humanity is the same. When you look at an Asian woman dating a black man or a black man dating a Native-American woman or a white man dating an Arabic woman or an Indian man dating an Asian woman, you shouldn’t think of their ethnicity, merely their common humanity.

I know that some people get angry when they seem members of their own ethnicity having so much success with inter-racial relationships. This form of envy is particularly acute in the Asian community. But at the end of the day, if you really, 100% believe that all of humanity is equal, you wouldn’t care who dated who.

Those who care about such things often see race – as in they think in terms of “our women” or “their men” or “our group”. That’s a form of racism – let me be clear – anyone who believes that race has any biological significance is a racist. That’s what the dictionary says. Therefore, it is racist to say things like “our women” or “our men”.

I know that some people get “hurt” when the perceive “their own” woman abandoning them. However, those thoughts are completely racist and unacceptable. No one should ever feel ashamed about who they like, no one should ever feel a “duty” to marry within ethnic lines, and no one has the right to tell someone “your love is just a fetish”.

To oppose interracial relationships is to oppose the unity of humanity. The human species is united, gloriously and completely through our common genetic template, a wonderful unity that is sadly realized by too few in this world.

We are a united species, in truth through DNA.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:24 pm ¶
Mike wrote:

Mod Note
That comment was for all media outlets that use this this topic to boost ratings.

As far as “the black or asian gender wars.”

Thats in your mind.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:27 pm ¶
Gorgeous Black Women wrote:

Jas, the black-women-are-shallow card is very 1990s. Who exactly are these women you’re asking out? Where are you meeting them? Most of my friends are women of color. Many are 1st and 2nd generation Americans of African, West-Indian, Asian and SE Asian descent. In my wider social circles, there are many black women (”domestic” and “imported”). I don’t know a single one of these women who wants a guy with designer clothes, a “robin hood” or one who can “talk black.” I also don’t know any who have children or are obviously unhealthy as you say which I imagine to be code for edentulous or overweight, perhaps morbidly so. I’ve never been to Chicago so I can’t say whether your description is remotely accurate but I do know a few beautiful single black women in your lovely city who are there for grad school. I can’t imagine that they’re looking for a “baller”

@Kelvin: YOU might not but others do. Though the situation isn’t reversed, there are many black men who have felt a need to ask why I’m with a white guy. I’ve heard people in interracial relationships, BW and BM, called “sell outs” and many colorful names by black people. I’ve heard of some WW in WW-BM relationships being called some colorful names by white people.

I actually find the stuff from white people, mostly WW, directed towards WM in AW-WM relationships the most appalling because it is so… acceptable. I’ve heard these things all through college and grad school and I don’t think there is a single time I’ve heard Asian women referred to as women. As time went by, more and more of my AW friends became opposed to relationships with WM. I know family and their cultures had some impact, but I believe the feeling that the constant pedophile magnet-war bride-masseuse with $2 happy endings-bangkok hooker-etc. implications had a lot to do with it.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:28 pm ¶
Shelby wrote:

Yikes! I’m sure other ppl have smarter things to say, but I’d just like to add my 2 cents to Colin’s comment…

Colin-
You say that Asian men don’t often give their opinions for fear of being typecast, but you paint all Asian women with the same brush and say, “It’s not like Asian women are seriously willing to listen.” I’m sure all Asian women don’t think the same thing just as each Asian man has his own individual thoughts and opinions.
And you also say that the women you talk to aren’t willing to listen, but it seems ,from your comment, that you aren’t approaching this topic with a sincere interest in dialogue. Because I think that “You don’t own me” is an exceedingly valid answer especially if the woman you’re talking to gets the vibe that you feel ENTITLED to her. Women don’t like feeling like property. We also don’t particularly like it when people dismiss our opinions by calling us “retarded” (offensive on so many levels…) If you keep getting back the same answer, you might want to think about WHY that is…

Now, I’m a Black woman and I have to admit that sometimes I do feel betrayed by Black men that don’t date Black women. But I also know that people date whomever for different reasons and that Black ppl aren’t “supposed” to be w/ each other. If I ask Black men why they don’t date me, I probably won’t get a very informative answer because that question makes the problem personal and ignores the bigger picture. It might help if you approach the situation differently and if you YOURSELF are willing to listen.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:13 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

La Toya, I will try to reframe my comments in a different direction, My main arguments about African- Americans dating across racial lines is the same flawed arguments I have heard for the last 20 years. The reason I havent talked about “Baby Boy” because I thought like “Waiting to Exhale” it was another thin-plot movie about the failings of Black Men by Singleton looking at a very complicated problem and adpating it to 18 million men in his so-called movie trilogy.

My problem with Black Feminists and Black Women in general streotype black men in every way since the 80’s just like Black Men telling me in the 1980’s (and today)saying that “sistas want too much” in a relationship and white women are easier to deal with, and with “many” Black Women say that there are no ‘eligble Black Men left’ with the same excuses, so what is an eligible man if you saw “Something New” in Kris Turner’s flawed world an IBM (Ideal Black Man)was a brotha with

1. an advanced degree
2. makes high 5 figures and up
3. lives in 6-7 figure home/apt
4. goes to expensive restraunts
5. dresses right and has good, clean white teeth and metrosexual
6. Is close to making partner at the law firm

So if these are the standards that educated Black Women and increasing numbers of the middle and working class have for black men these days, then I say with all due respect date White, Asian, Hispanic and men of other races and I hope you find that common connection and future happiness at least I know where Black Women stand in the modern dating/marriage game.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:13 pm ¶
Mike wrote:

I got to say your enviorment has to play a key role in this.

Down here in Atlanta I find the attitude surprisingly relaxed about this, I suspect because the city and it’s surounding areas are largely black there is “enough to go around”.

That plus there is no real struggle for resources amoung cultures like say in the bigger cities like LA.

But again that is only in Metro Atlanta.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:16 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

Attraction is a complicated issue that is heavily influenced by your societal and personal upbringing.

As much as I wished that attraction was some untainted arrow-smacking by Eros that’s just not the case. If it were like that the issue would be logically impossible to form, like people being concerned about the urge to pee, or the ability to walk on two legs.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:17 pm ¶
Chook wrote:

I’ve always thought that the way that modern mainstream media represents Asian men and women reflects a crisis of confidence amongst white males brought about by the ascendancy during the seventies of black men in the mainstream as ultra-masculine, which relegated white men to the lower status of sexual omegas.

Prior to the seventies Asian men were portrayed one-dimensionally as aliens, mean, cruel, brutal, warlike and savage, or as objects of ridicule. Still, in many portrayals of Asian men they were shown to be lustful for white women and threats to the sexual modesty of the white woman. The sexual emasculation of Asian men only seems to appear post 1970’s – after the sexual emasculation of white men by white women who were more than willing to choose black men as partners.

Although the objectification of Asian women is not new, I think that it assumed a new dynamic post 1970’s. The “conquest” of Asian women in the media by white men is a form of psychotherapy for the battered ego of white men. Prior to that, Asian women were being rescued from cold, evil Asian men, now they’re being rescued from sexually useless Asian men.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:18 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Gorgeous Black Women
“YOU might not but others do.”

So screw em. If you feel that you owe these dudes an explanation then that’s on you. If it were me though, I would not even bother with it. Folks will always give you a label no matter what you do. If it’s not IR relationships then it’ll be the way you talk or the music you listen to or your hobbies. You mustn’t let the foolishness of some other person ruin your life. It’s like taking Advil for someone else’s headache. Get my drift?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:28 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

Yay Chook! I’m glad someone pointed out the Asian male stereotype 180 turn.

And, out of curiousity, can any of the “love is love” with no societal influence people explain the disparity against black women/asian men? Because every time I hear that attraction can’t be helped it’s closely followed by black women just being genetically/evolutionally inferior as women and so no one should be judged because of it.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:31 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

Chook, you are probaly right about those asian movie representations from strong,cool and distant asian men like Bruce Lee, Sonny Chiba in action movies in the 70’s to a sexless non- threating Jackie Chan and Jet Li who couldn’t kiss or get it on with Aailyah when you knew the plot conatianed romance but they could sure kick butt. So you emasculate the or make them cruel or total emotionally vacant like in “Joy Luck Club”. After watching the movie I couldn’t figure that Andrew Mc Carthy was the savior of the Asian Woman once again.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:35 pm ¶
Jas wrote:

@Gorgeous Black Women

*sigh* I don’t know how many times I have to say that not ALL black women are like this and I’ve talked to black women at my school and at various jobs and not only have I seen black women reject men for reasons like that, and have no problem admitting it, I’ve had things like that said to my face on more than one occasion.

A small example would be in my A&P I class I recently finished the majority were black females. Two were single and pregnant and around my age (23) and the subject of men came up more than one time on our side of the classroom. These women made it quite clear that they wanted a man to come take care of them, provide for them and their children (who wouldn’t be the men’s OWN children), and that they had to have nice clothes, a nice place, or at least a nice car. The other half of their conversation about men was usually about how “there aint nothin but dead beat niggas in the world.” These are two small examples but they are not alone in what ‘I’ve experienced’ and they are not a rarity in what ‘I’ve experienced’. It was even more appalling because both of these women had already had children by other men who they were constantly harrasing for child support. But as far as they were concerned black men were 100% at fault and they had absolutely no baggage of their own to bring to the table.

Now maybe your experience and my experiences are very different but I’ve seen this quite a few times in the past 5 years and I’ve talked with other black men who’ve had to deal with the exact same thing. And while I do think that mentality is less prevalent among more educated black women, *SOME* educated black women I know who are going for advanced degrees/careers tend to stereotype black men the same way that *SOME* black men in that position stereotype black women to justify dating out. “There are no good black men. There all a bunch of incarcerated/secretly gay/broke/not as smart as me”. On the flip side”Black women are gold diggers who want to leech off black men’s success and bring baggage”.

As for successful women looking for a “baller”, my younger sister goes to the University of Washington in St.Louis. Which is one of the top universities in the country with a decent black population. My sister is in a black sorority which I won’t name because it could potentially cause her serious problems, but having met several of her “sisters” and their “partners” believe me visiting my sister down there I’ve seen plenty of educated black women out there whose only criteria for dating someone are his clothes, the amount of money he has, or his car. Not all but I think there were more than many people would be willing to acknowledge or admit.

So we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I’ve run into very many shallow black women, who have low/ridiculous standards for their men and when those standards are met and they get disappointed instead of blaming themselves they blame black men in prison. Or black men dating white women. Or gay black men. Or black men with blue collar jobs. Everyone is at fault except for them.

Now once again, for about the 4th or 5th time, this is not all or even most black women. I’m just saying that while I can sympathize with black women who get angry at black men for dating out, I think SOME of the anger of SOME of those black women who do get upset is misplaced and needs to be examined further internally instead of just laying the blame with black men which is what I’ve seen (and had to deal with) more often than not.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:36 pm ¶
Mike wrote:

” IBM (Ideal Black Man)was a brotha with…..”

Hell no is that what they are looking for?!

How many men fit that bill period.

Maybe black women are crazy?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:44 pm ¶
Shelby wrote:

To Eric-
I’m a young, educated Black feminist and I can understand how you could feel frustrated when people say that there are no eligible Black men. But I also feel frustrated when I hear Black men tell me (once they’ve found out that I’m educated, feminist, and middle class) that “we” all want numbers 1-6 on the list you’ve given. That’s not what I look for at all! Me and a lot of my friends simply want to find a man with the least misogynistic tendencies as possible.

And, if I’m not mistaken, wasn’t Sanaa’s bf a working class guy in the movie? I kind of saw him as a foil to the “IBM” her family tried to set her up with. What I took from the movie was that we aren’t supposed to choose mates based on some “ideal” that society has given us…
But I was kinda sleepy when I watched it so maybe I just made all that up, lol

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:49 pm ¶
superchunk12 wrote:

Since I have been with my boyfriend, the weirdest thing that ever happened to me was a little black girl coming up to me in a restaurant as I was going to the bathroom and asking why I was holding hands with a white man. And It was a tone of disdain rather than inquisitiveness. I smiled and told her he was my boyfriend, and quickly walked away, but I was shaken because she was so young and someone put that in her head.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:52 pm ¶
Alvin Lin wrote:

[I know that some people get “hurt” when the perceive “their own” woman abandoning them. However, those thoughts are completely racist and unacceptable. No one should ever feel ashamed about who they like, no one should ever feel a “duty” to marry within ethnic lines, and no one has the right to tell someone “your love is just a fetish”.]

The poster named Kovolev who wrote this is ignorant of his own White privilege or the gross racial imbalance in American society. I also find it funny that he’s talking about ignoring IR, when historically WHITE men were the ones who attacked and murdered or used laws to keep down nonWhite males from ‘their women’, and also how he ignores that less than 10% of Black or White females intermarry in this country, compared to over 50% among Asian American women. In my opinion, Asian men are MUCH more tolerant compared to what White or even Black men would do in a similar situation.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:52 pm ¶
Alvin Lin wrote:

Here is an post written by an intelligent Asian American woman, somewhere else:
———
“As an Asian American young woman, I have always had a conflicted relationship with feminism. I always hear and read about how men make more money, and most politicians and business executives are men. Of course that bothers me, but I really wonder how relevant that is to the Asian American experience.

I don’t see a lot of Asian American female politicians, but I think that there really might be more Asian American female politicians than Asian American male politicians.

Asian women are definitely more represented in the media, for better or for worse.

Asian American women are vastly more successful in the dating game than Asian American men.

Honestly, I think that the most prevalent sexism in the Asian American community is coming from Asian women to Asian men. Seriously, Asian American women can be really blatant about discriminating against Asian men for being, “short, ugly, boring, unassertive, bad dancers, not romantic, etc.” Basically, many Asian American women think that Asian men are not “manly” enough, and that really is sexism. Asian American women need to spend less time screaming about “yellow fever” and be more open-minded about how we evaluate men.

White women might think about how much easier their lives would be if they were white men, but how many Asian women would honestly trade places with Asian men? Not very many.
Black women speak of their “double burden” that they must face of racism and sexism. Is that true for Asian American women? Actually, I think that it is more true for Asian American men.

Asian American women have much more privilege than Asian American men, and so many of us have sexist attitudes toward Asian men, so how can I rail against Asian male patriarchy?

I wish for equality. I hate racism and sexism against everybody. I fight for women’s rights when talking about women in general. But when speaking about Asian Americans, I must admit that it is the men that have the heavier cross to bear, and a lot of that discrimination is coming from Asian women ourselves.

So, the bottom line is that feminists need to examine how gender affects men as well. That is especially true for Asian American feminists because we enjoy so much more privilege than Asian men and experience much less prejudice. “

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:53 pm ¶
whatever15 wrote:

Why are people comparing the plight of Asian men and Black women and implying that one( As-M) is more awful than the other? That is seriously pissing me off…

Also, Black women, as it may seem to some people, are not the only ones who look for certain factors in their perspective mate. It seems like some people are implying that black women are too picky, but white women are more open, which is total bullcrap. Both men and women of all ethnicities look for certain things, but a lot of times these things have been greatly influenced by society and I believe thats the reason for the disparities seen in interracial couplings (more WF/BM As-F/WM BM/HF, BF/HM, less BF/As-M, WF/As-M).

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:11 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

As an aside, I wish someone would look at interracial relationships as depicted in porn movies as well as the absurd growth of this niche market. Not that I know anything about it. I’m just saying.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:16 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Kelvin – Wendi did.

http://www.racialicious.com/2008/01/22/interracial-porn-holding-us-back-while-getting-us-off-pt-1/

Unless you mean you want another discussion.

@Eric Daniels –

Much, much better. I disagree with many of your points, but my boyfriend agrees. We are discussing and we are both basing our arguments on our experiences and our friends experiences. I have decided to address this in another post.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:34 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

***mod is going to sleep, will approve comments in the morning. ***

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:34 pm ¶
Colin A. B. wrote:

NOTE: That Colin does not speak for me, the Colin that frequents and lurks here on the regular.

I just do not want to be defamed here.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 2:00 am ¶
Whitney wrote:

Why is it that we feel that in order to be socially accepted and valid, we must date someone of the same race/ethnicity?

I understand that some people want to hold onto their traditional values, and many of those values include specific traditions tied to their home country/ethnicity. It also could be a religious thing as well. That I understand.

However, why is it that many people feel that they can’t just date who they like and who likes them? People are wonderfully adaptive, and if you love someone, you will support them in their traditions and uphold them to support your partner.

But not everyone has those traditions that they feel can only be held with someone of their same ethnicity.

It’s interesting, some people get upset over inter-racial dating, and others think that you’re racist if you don’t date out of your race. It’s kind of a catch-22.

Personally, I think that everyone should stay out of everyone else’s business and date who they feel a connection with. If someone has a problem with it, that’s their problem.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 5:22 am ¶
Gorgoeus Black Women wrote:

@Kelvin (105):
Never have I felt a need to “justify” my relationship to anyone. My mother doesn’t even get it. It’s my opinion that constantly feeling the need to justify their relationship to others is part of why there are so many people in relationships with negative attitudes about the members of their race who are of the opposite sex; I don’t know any gay interracial couples. Of course this does not make said negative attitudes acceptable. I don’t have a problem with interracial dating. I do have a problem with people who insult or demean black women because they’ve had a couple of black women attack them because of their dating choices.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 5:38 am ¶
Renee wrote:

I believe there is definitely a “shock factor” when black women date and or marry white males. I am a black woman and have been in a relationship with a white male for almost 20 years. I think that the reason people are shocked by this is the fact that black women bodies are viewed as bodies for consumption, exploitation, and sexualization. We are not the women you take home to momma, and therefore when a white man commits to us in a social sense he is “lowering himself”, in terms of racial hierarchy.
I did not choose my spouse because he is white or to snub black men in anyway. I choose him because he is a good man. I find at least personally race is an issue in terms of the larger world and not in our home.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 6:16 am ¶
lowercase tasha wrote:

“Also, Black women, as it may seem to some people, are not the only ones who look for certain factors in their perspective mate. It seems like some people are implying that black women are too picky, but white women are more open, which is total bullcrap. Both men and women of all ethnicities look for certain things, but a lot of times these things have been greatly influenced by society and I believe thats the reason for the disparities seen in interracial couplings (more WF/BM As-F/WM BM/HF, BF/HM, less BF/As-M, WF/As-M).”

@whatever15

You speak the truth. I also love the other myth I’ve heard from a black man or two on this topic. It kind of goes like, “yeah, when I was in undergrand, I got no play from black women (when they know that no women whatsoever were checking for them, black, white or otherwise), but as soon as I finished law school and started making six figures, I noticed how much more kind and considerate non-black women were. Gee whiz, Wally, I just wish I knew why non-black women were so much more understanding than black women. Maybe Jas can enlighten me.

You know a great American by the name of Donald Rumsfeld once said, “It is what it is.” That’s my approach to the disparities between BM/BW and AM/AW in IR’s. IR’s tend to fall into specific patterns for a reason. There’s usually more at play than mere love, no matter how many times people try to convince you otherwise. These disparities in IR dating patterns are the proverbial elephants in the room that many would have you ignore in the interest of avoiding conflict, when in fact, if there was more balance, IR’s wouldn’t be as controversial.

@Eric

The problem was with Kenya in “Something New” not the black men she was rejecting. I thought the movie made that rather clear. Spike Lee made ya’ll look much worse in “Jungle Fever,” even sat you down at the table for a lecture like children by Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 6:42 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

“I don’t see a lot of Asian American female politicians, but I think that there really might be more Asian American female politicians than Asian American male politicians.”

WHAT!!?! A vague (and false) generalization with no backing statistics. I’m going to look for them later, but just by checking some Wikipedia pages it looks like male politicians greatly outnumber female politicians.

And because Asian-American women are “more successful in the dating game” (something which matters very little when you’re older/married) they have more privilege than Asian-American men, in total? That’s completely idiotic. As just a few examples of how AA women AREN’T privileged, Asian-American women make much less money than Asian-American men, have the highest suicide rates across several age sets, and are sex-trafficked, raped, and victimized by domestic violence at much higher rates than Asian-American men.

We’re represented much more in the media, but as a consequence, are fetishized and degraded instead of emasculated. One is not better than the other; both are equally bad. Several misguided commenters have claimed there’s going to be a revolution or Asian-American women are somehow going to get what’s coming to them. Do you realize how juvenile that sounds? Stop generalizing, and stop pretending Asian-American women are going to be magically “turned around” as the result of vague threats. Create solidarity and attack internalized racism in men AND women instead.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 7:17 am ¶
DiosaNegra1967 wrote:

eric daniels said: “In the 80’s I used to say there were no Black Rocker Boho types who would like Black Flag, Duran Duran, and Luther or Al Green……”

Erm, yes there were……I was (and remain, to this day) one of those “Black Rocker Boho” types…..Uh, I had plenty of scorn heaped on me for being myself….but, no pity party here….moving on.

I’ve never dated out of “revenge” for Black men not liking me….I was relatively “ignored” or made fun of by them for not “fitting in”…so, tell me….would you spend your precious time trying to get the attention of individuals who did not like you as you are/were…..or, would you save your sanity and gravitate toward those (whatever “race” they may be) who would look to accept you as you are/were?

Simple, innit?

Personally, I’ve dated IR because of my interests being what they are/were….usually placed me in a different circle anyhow.

I just say date whomever you wish…and above all else, “Know thyself”….

Posted 21 May 2008 at 8:45 am ¶
DiosaNegra1967 wrote:

By the way, the couple at the beginning of the article (real or fictional) is C-U-T-E!!!

Posted 21 May 2008 at 8:46 am ¶
gatamala wrote:

many, many comments ago someone said this

Two persons from different ethnic background but with a similar social or academic background will probably have much more in common than two persons from the same ethnic background but with different social or academic baggage.

I have learned, from experience (sigh), how important this is as far as compatability.

I think a post that addresses race, class, education…would be interesting. I have gotten the sense from these posts that a significant number of people believe that only black women have concerns of financial stability. That, is false. Only recently in human history has romantic love taken over as the main impetus for formal relationships (and in some cultures it maintains minimal importance). I don’t know how many folks are or have been married on this board, but if you think that economic status (and behavior) and educational background (and behavior, interests) are not important or do not form a core part of your identity, you are in for a rude awakening.

Will my background limit my choices of black men? Sure! Of all men? Sure!

Call me a bitter elitist, but it is what it is (did I just quote Rummy).

Posted 21 May 2008 at 9:31 am ¶
lunanoire wrote:

I think that As-Am males and Af-Am females pay a social price for integration given the race/gender hierarchy relating to dating & marriage. There are alot of hurting people out there- As-Am males are likely discouraged by a higher than average rate of rejection, and many Af-Am females are not asked out.

To a degree sistas’ do want “too”much, many prefer a more egalitarian relationship (aside from men paying for dates) while men prefer a more traditional relationship (aside from pre-marital sex).

To be frank, I don’t care if people think it’s elitist that I prefer to be with people who read substance in addition to fluff.

In short, IR couples and their kids- enjoy yourselves, but don’t dismiss the pain of those left behind. I do not dismiss the pain of those in high demand who are approached as object rather than human beings.

Does anyone have an IR breakdown for either dating or marriage based on class/$/education? I think it plays a role.

thank you lowercase tasha, patterns exist for a reason beyond love.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 9:50 am ¶
Yvette wrote:

I agree that a follow-up post on this topic w/r/t the intersections of race and class (and sexual orientation and “social power”) would be interesting.

This has been a very interesting (and long!) discussion. Also, the “save the kittens” tag is quite funny, and I hope that it goes viral.

The interesting thing I have seen from this discussion is that, depending on where one is situated, different folks have different often heard and annoying “kitten-killing worthy” pet peeves. For some it might be the idea that individuals of color in IR relationships are “self-hating,” for others it might be the idea that their standards for potential mates in their own ethnic group are too high or inappropriate…

One reason, IMO, that these conversations are so difficult is that it is often too hard for each of us to hear past these statements–Continuing the metaphor, our perception shuts down amid images of furry bloodbaths.

I am interested (both personally and professionally) in these perceptual triggers that folks have when talking about difficult topics. Instead of a focus on the offending statement itself (or person saying it; e.g., “it is factually incorrect,” “that is not my experience”), it is often a worthwhile activity to examine why that particular statement triggers such a strong reaction in us.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 10:02 am ¶
Resee wrote:

Kudos to Kelvin and Bill (Post #70 and #73) – I totally feel you and agree (you can see that if you look at my earlier posts). Thanks!

Posted 21 May 2008 at 11:45 am ¶
Phil C. wrote:

IR dating, like most important things in life, can be done for right or wrong reasons. I saw a show where a sexologist specializing in multicultural issues cites some of the wrong, hidden reasons (revenge against racism; social status, etc. See multiculturalromance.com, click on Fanny Kiefer interview)
I’m an Asian Canadian male & I’m aware of these reasons. I know I’ve been brainwashed growing up that white/light is right from the media but see beyond that now that I’ve ‘grown up’.
I’ve met & been hurt by people who are influenced by these reasons (”I just prefer whites”; “I love Oriental women”; “You don’t look bad for an Asian”. I prefer light skinned women, etc.”).
People who IR date with a vengeance, who ‘prefer certain people’ based on color, I believe, b/c they have unresolved issues with themselves (low self-esteem, cultural inferiority complex, etc. ), like I once did when I would settle for a white women who would have me.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 12:00 pm ¶
Resee wrote:

Shelby, I’m sorry about the fact that no one seems to be interested. Maybe it’s the area you live in. I have lived in Chicago and Oklahoma (predominately white and conservative Oklahoma) and have found that I get hit on by mainly white males (sometimes black), and not in a disrespectful way 90% of the time. I think a lot of it has to do with how much you love and value yourself, regardless to what value the general population may give you. It really shows when you love yourself; you come off as much more confident. If you, as a black woman, feel that you have no value, then guess what – others are going to feel you have no value. It may seem overly-simplistic, but from my experience, it totally makes sense. I have no problem getting a date with a man of just about any ethnicity (though Asian guys generally have not hit on me) and it’s not because I’m mixed or ultra-light skinned – it’s because I value myself, and if someone else can’t see my value because of something as superficial as my skin tone, nose, and lips, then I CHOOSE not to give THEM the time of day.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 12:26 pm ¶
RCH wrote:

Hi,

I’d just like to put my two cents in over the last question posed by the author over which couples may garner more attention minority male/majority female or minority female/majority male. I’ve been doing this fascinating historical analysis over how minorities, particularly blacks and Asians, were depicted in certain gendered stereotypes. For example, historically in America the black male was hypermasculinized to the point where he was regarded as having extreme sexual prowess. This made him out to be a perceived threat to the white male, who feared that the black man would be able to successfully seduce/rape the white woman if she was left “vulnerable” to his advances. This attitude towards black man/white woman relationship is thus perceived from a hostile point of view even today. If any of you ever visit Kim Kardashian’s IMDB thread, you’ll unfortunately find too many threads bashing her for her taste in black men.
In contrast to this depiction the Asian male was almost always depicted in an emasculate manner, where he was perceived to not be any threat to the white male’s personal domain. Thus I think most people tend to never imagine Asian man/white woman pairings as being very common; if they do ever happen to come across such pairings they might wind up being really surprised to say the least.

With white man/minority woman pairings most people tend to not be as surprised or upset about it. They may view such relationships as being nothing serious, just instances of the white man getting around. The American military has helped perpetuate that white man stereotype by allowing its soldiers to sexually exploit women (mostly nonwhite) around the world.
So to me American society tends to regard every relationship differently depending on the gendered stereotypes it has towards others.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 2:28 pm ¶
Daomadan wrote:

“Not sure how my other comment got swallowed but I think one important aspect to note that since Asian men are so emasculated in North American society, Asian women are actually reinforcing this fact with their dating and marriage habits.
After all, if white men weren’t the best and Asian men weren’t so poor, they’d be with Asian men, right?

It’s almost as if Asian women are being used as a weapon to attack Asian men. What makes it worse is that Asian women poo-poo this concern because they’re too busy thinking about how it would affect their dating pool. Add on the fact that Asian women, by and large, are much more likely to trash their own men than any other ethic minority woman.

This just drives up the animosity towards Asian women. ”

Ron: Drives up the animosity for who? Are you blaming APA women for what is happening to APA men? Can you clarify? Because my mouth is hanging open in shock that instead of blaming the greater structures of the white male patriarchy ™ you’re placing so much responsibility on APA women.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 2:39 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

Many of you people on this site who are so critical of opinions like mine are just like the white people in Kentucky and Pennslyvania on why they wouldn’t vote for Obama, they couldn’t just be honest and just say “I don’t want a nigra president” they came up with all these excuses and then said “they would vote for Mcain if Hillary did not get the nod. I have dated across the racial specturm and what I have found that in 90% of the cases the other partner is dating you because…

1. they hate themselves

2. have a grudge against the male side of the ethnic group

3. Wants to piss off daddy/mama/extended family

4. Or have a racial/sexual fetish about the other group

5. Wants to prove that she/he is indeed open -minded

Well it takes more than that to make a successful mixed marriage in my nearly (it’s closer to 40) years of life and 23 years of dating, I have met only 3 people who took dating across ethnic lines seriously. Most were very cavilier about each other’s cultural taste thinking love would work itself out until that argument that one of the spouses call them a racial slur or an issue or race came up and you realized they were on the other side of the argument. Or he/she didn’t like the of the family and refused to even attend events but demanded you show up to theirs. That’s when all hell breaks loose, I have seen the damage and it did not matter what ethnic configuation it was they weren’t feeling your culture or family.

Outside of those 3 people I have known, they are still married and don’t live in the rainbow many of you are talking about like those words of wisdom…

1. mind your own damn buisness
2. so what !! I marry who I want
3. or have some Hippie BS racially speil
4.People trying to justify their choices in defiant tones

Those 3 people have paid the ultimate price their love and knew the risks (I have heard them cry/voice their angst to me) and didn’t cloud into phony plattitudes or defensive smackdowns of another’s opinion (like some on this board) I don’t care who you marry or sleep with or the justifications for which you choose who to love but don’t make excuses for what you always wanted do .

That to me is complete phony behavior, I wanted to date IR because I didn’t want to date Black Women period and always wanted to until I relaized I was using those women like a 5th place ribbon in school activity day. If I choose to date/marry interracially, I will use the examples of my 3 friends and how they were able to see the world for what it is, AND WERE SERIOUS about what they were entering into.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 3:11 pm ¶
holls wrote:

Add me to the list that would like to see dating and class discussed.

I am dating a sweet, smart, cute, athletic, well-educated and successful white guy.

But he grew up poor and I grew up privileged, and ALL of our problems (what few we have) live there.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 3:18 pm ¶
Gorgeous Black Women wrote:

I’m clearly not Asian but I have lived in this country for a long enough time (15 years total) to get a good sense of media portrayals. Asian males are few and far between. For the most part, they are basically eunuchs. When discussing the disparity, white men and some Asian women say that Asian men are too effeminate, an opinion that I don’t share. Most of my male friends are gay and so most of my Asian male friends are gay. I don’t consider any of them effeminate or eunuchs.

In my experience in this society, as far as femininity goes, it’s Asian women at the high end followed by white women then Latinas then black women. Desirability as a romantic (not purely sexual) partner is the same except Asian and white women swap places.
For masculinity, it’s black men then Latinos and whites then Asian men. For desirability as a partner, it’s white men then Latinos and black men then Asian men.

By Latinos, I mean the white ones. The black ones are generally just clumped together with the non-Latino blacks.

This has everything to do with what we’re spoon-fed by the media. Whether you’re watching an action flick, a romantic comedy or a TV show, you’ll see lots of positive white characters. I’m sure many of you have seen the “A Girl Like Me” documentary with the doll experiment. Even toddlers pick up on these messages early on.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 3:27 pm ¶
lowercase tasha wrote:

@Daomadan

Are you alluding to something beyond media portrayals of Asian men, or is there some other reason why you feel that white patriarchy is to blame for the rate of Asian women in IR’s? Like are you saying that the media stereotypes are so powerful that Asian women can’t help themselves? What?

Posted 21 May 2008 at 4:04 pm ¶
Resee wrote:

Eric, you sound like you have some underlying issues. Everyone doesn’t have the same, uh, “reality” of interracial relationship as you do. Some people CAN, in fact, look past the race, and how dare you claim that basically EVERYONE who has dated interracially has some sort of agenda? I can assure you, some people JUST WERE RAISED DIFFERENTLY and don’t approach the issue of interracial relationships like you do. I wasn’t raised to look for a mate of my same color; that wasn’t important in my family. Things like honesty, trust, respect and love were the things I was taught to value. And sure, our world is hung up on race, but does that mean I have to be? No sir, it does not. I refuse to be shaped into some racial mode just because you, or some close-minded white, asian, mexican, or black people want me to. Sorry, everyone doesn’t see race before they see people, so please don’t try to fit me into your inflexible mold.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 4:17 pm ¶
HC wrote:

I’m working on it, but I don’t date white guys just to defy this self-loathing Asian women thing. I have only met a handful who were attractive anyway

Posted 21 May 2008 at 5:53 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>I have dated across the racial specturm and what I have found that in 90% of the cases the other partner is dating you because…

Oh, I see, so YOUR experiences must be the same as 90% of all people in the US or ever the world who date interracially? As the old saying goes, who died…?

Here’s one for you. I’m black/white biracial. WHO am I SUPPOSED to date in order to not be a self-hating racist, in your book, and WHO should be allowed to date ME?

*sits back, munches popcorn*

Posted 21 May 2008 at 6:21 pm ¶
heyhey wrote:

@Colin: I was going to take the mod-note’s lead and carefully counter your arguments (ah, see? Asian sister open to listening and attempt a thoughtful response, who whudda thunk?)

But then I got to your ill-advised use of “retarded” and decided against it.

Um, no sir. Not gonna bite that bait today.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 7:46 pm ¶
Brigitte wrote:

I don’t have anything to add that hasn’t already been commented on a dozen times here except that the Asian guy in that photo is really cute.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 8:52 pm ¶
anon. wrote:

I’d be pretty bitter about all sorts of stuff if I’d been dating for 23 years, too…

Posted 21 May 2008 at 9:55 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

You know . . I can’t really begrudge eric’s opinion entirely- unfortuantely he’s not pulling all of that out of a hat.

I can’t speak for any black person except myself (oddly enough) but unfortunately for me every time I was approached by a white guy he was definitely looking at my race first. It was either in the ‘ooh, I never hooked up with one of those before’ or ‘great, now I can show how awesomely unracist I am by being with this black chick’.

And during my highschool years my white friends who tended towards black/non-white men had virtually nothing positive to say about white guys in general, which always came off as odd.

I’ve been acquaintances with interracial couples but nothing closer, so I’ll say nothing about the pairs that are actually formed- maybe the guys I run into never actually get into an interracial relationship, and the ones who do are actually decent, but that a bit optimistic.

And it can be plausible tha a person can go into a relationship for the wrong reasons but end up loving that person anyway.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 10:03 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

94. Colin

“While some think it’s an defeatist attitude, maybe Asian American men should head back to Asia. Americanized Asian men are popular there.”

If it’s gonna come down to a matter of leaving the country, I’ll probably go to Spain, as I speak Spanish better than my “native” language of Cantonese. Hey, they got Spanish classes where I’m from, but no Cantonese. Plus, I’ve been to Spain and China and I’d have to say I’m much fonder of Spain. They have siestas, chorizo, Mediterranean weather, unrestricted Internet access, and, of course, pretty Spanish girls.

Americanized Asian men are popular in Asia? Yeah? Name one.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 10:15 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

97. Korolev

Why can’t we all just be colorblind? And forget the past few hundred years of colonialism, oppression, and injustice? Asian-American men are not ignorant of history. We discuss terms like “White knight” and “White worship” because they are relevant to the history of our patterns of immigration to America and the rest of the Western world, and how we were treated by the dominant white powers.

Let me ask you this: Do you know why so many Asian men (historically and even now) run laundries, restaurants, grocery stores, and gas stations?

Did you notice that during WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War that the US occupied three major Asian countries? Do you know the profound impact on Asian and American culture the past 60 years of occupation has had?

The American phenomenon of Asian babies being adopted predominantly by white families and the outmarriage of Asian women to black and white American men, beginning with soldiers, are but two of the myriad effects of cultural imperialism.

But hey, at least we have Tiger Woods and Chinese buffets.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 10:28 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

Lysonside I spoke my opinion on an issue that I expericened, and yes was 90% of the people I knew who dated IR . I dated women who were not interested in getting to know me as a person but they had racial fetishes. Everybody doesn’t live the hippie fantasy of “I like to teach the world to sing” Rant all you like but that’s what I expericenced dating across racial lines so I am more careful when it comes to those choices.

And Resse, racial fetishes are more common than true love across racial and ethnic lines worldwide but since you are so committed to racial harmony here’s a song for ya

I’d like to teach the world to sing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2QZW1mexhQ

Posted 21 May 2008 at 11:40 pm ¶
Rina wrote:

I am late to the comments here, but had to post because this all touches a nerve with me. I’m a black woman in a relationship with a white man, who I have had a connection with from the moment I met him. That said, it hasn’t been all peaches & cream. While we have a lot in common, share interests, etc, my bf and I come from different cultural backgrounds, which means that sometimes we have to translate across a cultural barrier, or explain where we’re coming from in a way that we might not have to for someone of the same background. Also, I grew up in a 2-parent black household and always envisioned myself heading that kind of household as an adult.

I have to admit, in the beginning of my relationship with my bf, I worried that my being with a white man revealed something about myself and my “blackness.” I was hesitant to tell black friends that he was white, because I felt that they might somehow judge me, but honestly, that was really just a reflection of me judging myself. There can be less than admirable reasons for dating outside of your race, and I definitely had to do some soul-searching to be sure that those weren’t my reasons.

Honestly, sometimes I feel like the freak of the interracial dating set. First of all, I have never had a problem meeting /dating smart and attractive black men. Also, most other people I know who date interracially didn’t feel the need to go through the soul-searching that I did to feel totally comfortable in my relationship. I’m not sure what that means, but there it is.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 11:40 pm ¶
mr guy wrote:

“I don’t have anything to add that hasn’t already been commented on a dozen times here except that the Asian guy in that photo is really cute.”

So is the woman with him.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 2:25 am ¶
lowercase tasha wrote:

@Eric

Alright, REE-AL (Madrid) TALK! I can’t speak for anyone else, but this is problem I have with your comments. It’s not your black nationalist stance, or your saying that the black community of old doesn’t exist. It’s not even your denying that there’s an eligible, black male shortage, or calling “Waiting to Exhale”, Waiting to Inhale (which by the way I thought was actually pretty funny), or any of that. In fact, there are times, when I attach more weight to your comments than then some of these Kumbaya, Pollyanna idealists. However, I’ve noticed in some of the threads like on “Something New is Getting Old” and this one where you talk about how you feel like going to your lake house (like in the movie) to wait for your Sandra Bullock, whoever she may be, when these discussions arise, because you feel that lot of black women, who bemoan the “eligible, black male shortage,” judge black men based on their material assets alone and may be too picky. Then, you discuss how black women need to stop watching “Something New” and “Waiting to Inhale” (still laughing), stop paying attention to statistics, stop thinking that all of these black men are in jail and on the down low, won’t commit, and so on and so forth.

Now, given the ardent way you dole out advice about what you think black women are doing wrong, one would think that you yourself were happily married to a black woman, but YOU AREN’T MARRIED to anyone and I could be wrong, but based on your comments, I don’t think you’ve ever been married, and by your own admission, it’s not because you can’t get dates. In fact, you’ve alluded to how you’ve been through all of these women on more than one occasion, yet, still no Sandy (Bullock). But here you are lecturing like the black love authority. Could it be that you are as (supposedly) selective as the black women you shake your finger at, if not more so? Could it be that you’re not really looking for a “Sandy” at all; you’re just telling yourself and others that to be polite? Though you may not realize, you sound like the very type of man you’d warn your daughter about (if you had a daughter, that is)? Now, seriously, if you were a black woman looking for a husband, would you be enthusiastic about taking advice from a man your age that isn’t married, probably hasn’t married, nor has any immediate, future plans to marry, one who admits to having run through women like “5th place ribbons”? If in fact, you would be reluctant to take advice from the man I just described, why be mad at those who feel the same way?

“Waiting to Inhale” (yeah, sorry, but I’m stealing that and playing it off like I came up with it. everyone’s gonna think I’m so clever when I say that at my next party)

“Many of you people on this site who are so critical of opinions like mine are just like the white people in Kentucky and Pennslyvania on why they wouldn’t vote for Obama, they couldn’t just be honest and just say “I don’t want a nigra president” they came up with all these excuses and then said “they would vote for Mcain if Hillary did not get the nod”

See now, this is exactly what I’m talking about with the “Ya’ll ain t slick”. Ya’ll wanna have it both ways. When white people in Kentucky and Penn. vote for Hillary, they’re racists. When 90% of the black voting block is pro-Obama, it’s . . .

Be among the talented tenth. Support Hillary 

Posted 22 May 2008 at 6:02 am ¶
Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

This comment is from Wendi Muse, who’s having a bit of trouble posting right now:

this might be a bit unrelated, but ok maybe not
i have found in my own personal experience that the beauty norms within any ethnic group as more restrictive than say others´norms set for us by other groups
for example, within the black community, i feel like there is more pressure to look a certain way to please men (i.e. lighter skin, *good* hair, and other physical attributes that place us infinitely closer to whiteness) whereas ouside of the black community, attributes that are dinstinctive and specifically black are considered beautiful and different…my last serious boyfriend is apa, and often made comments about how he liked my hair curly much more than when i straightened it and would make fun of me when i let myself get too pale in the winter. given, he was just kidding about these things, but i found it telling that some of the features he found the most beautiful about my (when my skin was darker or my hair was curlier) were the same attributes my own community hated itself for and constantly was trying to erase or change. i think that we have so long been surrounded by media images and stereotypes that we have experienced an intense mental reconditioning that has worked so well that we don´t even admit to ourselves that when we choose mates, we´re working off those stereotypes and images and that not all interracial relationships are a sign of a changing world. i find the same occurs with whites. for example, if you´re a white woman, it´s expected that you remain thin…but more voluptuous white women (and sometimes to their dismay) are often regarded as beautiful by say black and/or latino men where that body type is not considered a mark for social pariah-dom lol.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 7:18 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>Everybody doesn’t live the hippie fantasy of “I like to teach the world to sing” Rant all you like but that’s what I expericenced dating across racial lines so I am more careful when it comes to those choices.

So a legitimate question of your worldview = rant? Interesting way of having a conversation…

And if you think I’m a Pollyanna, you haven’t read my comments here or at ARP.

BTW, I’m a married mom who is old enough to remember the original Coke commercial (it interupted the Charlie Brown christmas special, and we had it videotaped off the TV).

Posted 22 May 2008 at 8:44 am ¶
gatamala wrote:

lowercase tasha said

Though you may not realize, you sound like the very type of man you’d warn your daughter about (if you had a daughter, that is)? Now, seriously, if you were a black woman looking for a husband, would you be enthusiastic about taking advice from a man your age that isn’t married, probably hasn’t married, nor has any immediate, future plans to marry, one who admits to having run through women like “5th place ribbons”?

perhaps this will help you understand where he’s coming from

http://newsoula.blogspot.com/search?q=brazil

Posted 22 May 2008 at 11:08 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

I hate to be crude about it, but based on that blog post, Eric’s basic stance is pretty obvious. It’s common to men of a lot of different races (including white men). Interracial pussy = GOOD, interracial dick = BAD.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 11:42 am ¶
G. Leigh wrote:

@lunanoire

” Also, there is less of a problem for beautiful black women who also appear mixed.”

I’d really like to nip this kind of thinking in the bud.

I am one of those women. I appear mixed, but both of my parents are Black. I am beautiful, I am educated, talented, fun, single, no children, financially independent, normally neurotic, living in Manhattan and an artist. I get looks from Black men, and I have had two marriage offers from Black men who, I realized, really just wanted a trophy, a doll to look at and play with. When they realized I was a 3-dimensional woman with a brain and feelings and opinions this made them very uncomfortable. I said “no” to both proposals. (However, I don’t think that particular issue is limited to Black women–I think that a man wanting to marry a woman for the wrong reasons is just common to womankind).

Since then I have dated a Black man from Trinidad (who didn’t want to get married), a WASP, a Cuban and the latest one a nice Jewish boy from Long Island. No Black man has asked me out in five years. I’ve been holla-ed or inappropriately approached (”hey baby” or worse, etc.) but that is it. When I ignore that type of approach, the standard response is “I bet if I was white you’d like me.” I’ve heard that so many times it doesn’t phase me anymore.

When I used to go to parties, clubs or events with primarily Black people, many women would clutch their men when I walked in the room. I’ve stopped attending those kind of events.

I have had Black men let me know that they were dating a White or Asian woman–and the emphasis was always on the woman’s race, and it was held up to me as some kind of personal victory for them. A kind of “See? You light and everything but I got someone better than you–I got the authentic, non-white woman.” It’s hard to explain, but anyone who has had this experience will know exactly what I am talking about. I think it’s really sick and pathological.

Things are not easier for a fair-skinned, “beautiful” , maybe mixed-Black woman. My pysche is that of a Black person, specifically my daddy who was raised in the segregated south. I find it hard to believe that a man outside my race is interested in me for other than my looks. (Another issue of being raised primarily by my dad. I was taught to pay more attention to my brains than my looks, so when my outside is paid more attention than my inside it still freaks me out). Whenever a man who is non-Black shows an interest in me I pretty much don’t know how to respond, and the man thinks I am not interested in him and backs off.

I pretty much ruined things with the nice Jewish boy, and am working on getting that back. I couldn’t stand the stares; I thought it was because we were a interracial couple. Finally I confessed to one of my friends why I stopped dating him and she looked at me like I was crazy. She said, “People stared at you two because you’re both really good-looking. You ass.” (it was said with love). I really didn’t get it. And I had pushed away someone who really liked me, and was funny, sweet and kind.

So, again, what is supposed to be easier for us yallas in relationships? Let me tell you, absolutely nothing. That is a big, fat myth.

I would like to get married and have a family. I would welcome a decent man of any race. If I do not deal with my “stuff”, I am going to miss out on happiness.

Who has time for revenge dating when just dating period can be so hard?

Posted 22 May 2008 at 12:03 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

gee, he calls me out on his own blog years ago where I can’t respond? Unless there was track-back I missed..

Keep classy, EricD.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 12:07 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

I would advise people to watch “The Sopranos” where these Mafia goombah characters were so anti-black male but were screwing women of color like it was no big thing. And it happens in many Hollywood Movies with Mob figures, they called Black Males “Moulians” but have their black mistress on the side and love he like a second wife. Atlsien, you do have it right, to most men of various ethnic groups it is “IR vagina = good , IR penis = Bad

And Lyonside and Resse my favorite three movies on IR relationships are …

1. Mississippi Masala
2. Loving Jeezebel
3. Eraserhead

Because none of those movies had a politcal agenda like “Jungle Fever Spike Lee’s imfamous BM/WF couples are fugly on Arsenio Hall’s show together or Something New’s so- called look for other options for BW, it’s called an a agenda movie. Those three movies I listed had race involved AS THE CENTRAL FEATURE but you related to the humanity of the charcters and the complexity of the movie and made you root for the charcters.

Yes lowercase Tasha, I hate Something New and Jungle Fever for the exact same reason, because they were two lousy movies that people fawned over as “groundbreaking” when real movies who have tackled the subject with much more care and humanity. It’s not surprising that a Indian Woman did the best American Movie ever on IR romance because she did not have a agenda like Kris Turner and Spike Lee, both of those movies belong on the garbage heap with movies like “Swirl” and “Quess Who”. Malcolm X and Roger Rabbit were ground-breaking movies not those two flawed pieces of cow dung.

I have dated across racial lines and if the right person comes along and she is not a POC then I will be just as happy, but I will not wear blinders to the world of reality where there are 6 billion different ones happening everyday.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 1:22 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

Thanks for the nonsequitur, ericD. Are we reduced to talking about movies and the Sopranos now to illustrate real-life IRs? That’s… sad.

I’m not a racial fetish, my spouse (also a minority, but neither of my heritages) is not a racial fetish, and my kid isn’t a racial fetish. How hard is that to understand? Guess I’m in your special 10%.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 1:38 pm ¶
Jay wrote:

The “couple” in the picture is from Akira’s Hip Hop Shop… James Kyson Lee from Heroes and Emayatzy Corinealdi from Days of Our Lives.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 2:22 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:

@ Jay–did Emayatzy Corinealdi jump from “Young and the Restless” to “Days of Our Lives”? The Akira’s Hip Hop Shop website said she was on “Y&R”. So does imdb.com.

http://www.popcultureshock.com/akiras/
(Check out the trailers while you’re there. I think they’re pretty sexy.)

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1538675/
If there are some NYC-area commenters and lurkers (and I *know* there are), the director, Joe Doughrity, is having a free showing of “Akira’s” at the Brooklyn Museum of Art on June 7th–the details about the time and screening room are to be announced soon. Also, the DVD is scheduled to be released this summer.

…with all that said, I still think James and Emayatzy make a great-looking couple, be it cinematic or real-life.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 2:57 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:

Thanks, Cruel Secretary, for the info on James and Emayatzy. They are an adorable couple, real-life or no!

Posted 22 May 2008 at 3:13 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:

would I be wrong if I said their babies could be cute (as they are both cute)…

I’ll take it back if so….

Posted 22 May 2008 at 4:06 pm ¶
Jay wrote:

Sorry TCS, I don’t watch soaps so I got the name wrong

Posted 22 May 2008 at 4:50 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:

@ Jay–friend, neither do I.:-D I had to ask ‘cuz sometimes websites don’t update and I thought maybe you caught her on “DOOL” while flipping channels, that’s all.

@gatamala–can’t comment on the cuteness of the potential kids. Some commenters may slam you for it, though, because of the “all-biracial-kids-are-cute” stereotype. What I will say is you, atlasien, Lyonside, and some of the other commenters did a great dissection (okay, takedown) of eric daniel’s points. Just brills, y’all.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 5:47 pm ¶
c wrote:

I helped organize a screening of Akira’s Hip Hop Shop through my sorority on campus (Univ. of Michigan) with Joe Doughrity as the special guest. If you come across a screening, definitely check it out! It’s a short film, unfortunately, but it’s definitely a great starting point for further discussion. Joe is working on a full-feature so be on the lookout!

Love the discussion! I would add something, but it would be trite given that many others have shared similar thoughts.

To the black women dating Asian men, I hear you! I got stares and the inevitable questions about penis size (”Is it true??”) from other black women ad nauseum. I still wonder why the inquiries are so sexual…

-c.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 6:01 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

I didn’t call you,your relationship nor your child a racial fetish Lysonside, I merely stated an uncomfortable truth in America that many men and women explore these relationships as something they will do while single and marry within their ethnic group since out of 300 million citizens there is about 1-3 million married mixed couples that is hard to dispute Lyonside.

Unless you are a friend of mine, I don’t your relationship setup or if it’s good or not, nor do I know that any of the other people who disagree with my statements if there realtionships are good, I am happily single because I can date and enjoy my life as I choose because I was careful who I bought into my circle (lower case Tasha) when I pursued long- term relationships I was responsible no serial engagments here.

If you want to feel “offended” because I didn’t give you or any other person who pursued an IR a free pass then that’s sad on your part not mine.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 6:06 pm ¶
Me wrote:

Dear Kelvin,
I (heart) you.
No, seriously, I’ve read through pretty much all the comments on here and yours have been my favorite and the ones I find myself agreeing with.
-Me (a black female)

Posted 22 May 2008 at 6:17 pm ¶
lm wrote:

“I’ve always wondered why black women and Asian men don’t date each other. ”

Large generalization, and exceptions – detailed right here in the thread – certainly exist, but the sense I get is that East Asian men are much less amenable (South Asian men a little more so).

Asian men seem to focus much more on the Asian women that don’t want them than non-white – another important distinction in the fiercely hierarchical society that is North America – women of color, that are not Asian, who might.

Also, men of all races commenting here, I’m curious. Do you read any of the other comments before you comment, or do you just jump right in? I read a lot of you repeating yourselves, and very frequently women of all colors have already addressed the points you raise somewhere else in the thread. And some of the womens’ comments even offer solutions, but you seem much more interested in airing your aggrieved points once again than reviewing those possible solutions.

What’s up with that?

Posted 22 May 2008 at 7:05 pm ¶
lm wrote:

“I hate to be crude about it, but based on that blog post, Eric’s basic stance is pretty obvious. It’s common to men of a lot of different races (including white men). Interracial pussy = GOOD, interracial dick = BAD.”

And that’s about male privilege. It does seem like there aren’t a lot of men of any race who are willing to look at that critically.

G. Leigh – are you me? *shudder*

Posted 22 May 2008 at 7:11 pm ¶
lm wrote:

“…but more voluptuous white women (and sometimes to their dismay) are often regarded as beautiful by say black and/or latino men where that body type is not considered a mark for social pariah-dom lol.”

Carmen, I’ve also seen that in reverse. If you’re a woman with African-American or Latin heritage, and you’re what’s known as “skinny” among the men of those races, you sometimes tend to do better dating interracially, where if you’re – ahem – less diminutive, white and Asian men sometimes won’t even look at you.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 7:15 pm ¶
lm wrote:

eric –

I’m curious. Whether speaking negatively about Black women (5th place ribbons?!?) or women of any race, you have sooooooooo much information on how relationships are NOT supposed to go.

What does a GOOD relationship look like to you?

Could you describe it?

Posted 22 May 2008 at 7:23 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:

@ eric daniels–no, friend, you didn’t call Lyonside, her relationship, or her child a fetish. You did, however:

1) drop a bunch of blanket statements:
“It may sound sexist and even racist for me to say this, but White Men and Men of other races are just more comfortable dealing with African- American Women as opposed to African- American Men.”

2) justify them with with your singular experiences, as if your experiences is *the* normative experience concerning all IR relationships:
“Well it takes more than that to make a successful mixed marriage in my nearly (it’s closer to 40) years of life and 23 years of dating, I have met only 3 people who took dating across ethnic lines seriously.”

3) When other commenters have pointed out the flaws in your argument, you resort to advising us to watch TV shows:
“I would advise people to watch “The Sopranos” where these Mafia goombah characters were so anti-black male but were screwing women of color like it was no big thing. And it happens in many Hollywood Movies with Mob figures, they called Black Males “Moulians” but have their black mistress on the side and love he like a second wife.”

4) Or you just got “unnecessary” with other folks:
“Everybody doesn’t live the hippie fantasy of “I like to teach the world to sing” Rant all you like but that’s what I expericenced dating across racial lines so I am more careful when it comes to those choices.”

“And Resse, racial fetishes are more common than true love across racial and ethnic lines worldwide but since you are so committed to racial harmony here’s a song for ya: I’d like to teach the world to sing.”

“Many of you people on this site who are so critical of opinions like mine are just like the white people in Kentucky and Pennslyvania on why they wouldn’t vote for Obama, they couldn’t just be honest and just say “I don’t want a nigra president” they came up with all these excuses and then said “they would vote for Mcain if Hillary did not get the nod.”

What I find so sad and angering about your arguments are not only aren’t they well thought-out, they just mean-spirited (especially the blindingly sexist idea that interracial p****=good; interracial d***=bad–and don’t even try to say that atlasien said it first, as if it justifies your base opinion of women, as seen on your blog) and insulting, eric. And I’m not feeling it, period.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 7:24 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>I didn’t call you,your relationship nor your child a racial fetish Lysonside,

Right, just that “90%” of people in IRs have ulterior motives. When I fish for examples, you trot out FICTIONAL SCRIPTED SHOWS.

Could it just possibly be that your experiences are NOT the norm?

As to the oft-quoted # of marriages vs. dating regarding IRs, consider the following:

-the people likely to be in IRs are younger parts fo the American populace (not young, just younger). Remove older people who are least likely to marry interracially from the stats.

-heterosexual Americans are currently tending to marry later in life. Multiple marriages are common, if heterosexual, and multiple long term relationships are also common.

-Loving vs. VA didn’t remove the stigma or IRs and the real social obstacles, anymore than the 16th Ammendment gave true freedom to African-Americans. So anyone citing “41 years” or “250 years” is correct on dates, but wrong on realities.

- regional de facto segregation and social segregation still exists – making IRs in some areas less likely to begin with. The demographics have been well documented by the 2000 Census.

SO… could it possibly be that there are other factors at work for lower IR number than some expect other than “racial fetishes [being] more common than true love?”

Or does that just not compute with you?

I merely stated an uncomfortable truth in America that many men and women explore these relationships as something they will do while single and marry within their ethnic group since out of 300 million citizens there is about 1-3 million married mixed couples that is hard to dispute Lyonside.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 7:47 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

[To clarify, when I say "-heterosexual Americans are currently tending to marry later in life. Multiple marriages are common, if heterosexual", I'm thinking nationally.

Individual states that allow gay marriage and civil unions may eventually have different demographics, but my hunch is that they would eventually match the general population. Race relations within the GLBT communities are a whole 'nother issue.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 7:49 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>I merely stated an uncomfortable truth in America that many men and women explore these relationships as something they will do while single and marry within their ethnic group since out of 300 million citizens there is about 1-3 million married mixed couples that is hard to dispute Lyonside.

Sorry, this part should have been marked as a quote and moved up past my last 2 paragraphs.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 7:51 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

Something in G. Leigh’s post made me think of something- a thing that runs through my head logically all the time but it’s harder for me to take to heart, (because I’m a nut)-

But maybe the racially advantaged, as well as the generally pretty advantaged, in dating maybe not really have a much greater dating pool really but a higher amount of ‘crap date or daters’.

Though not biracial-looking my good friend is very attractive. The world lets me know that, but a good chunk of the time the guys that flock to her had a (surprising) tendency to not be attractive and to be overall iffy people. She does get more real time crushes by decent males but if you take out the trash numbers the difference is much less staggering.

And I don’t know about other WOC but I can’t tease apart when I’m being dissed for racial pretty bias or general non-beautiful bias (I’m a non-sexy dork). I generally don’t put a racial spin on it unless I really have to, because, though both are mad superficial, I would be much more hurt if it were because of my race.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 8:20 pm ¶
EvilAngelfish wrote:

Adding my two cents to the discussion (although I’d love to address some of the comments too but I should be studying right now) -
To date, I’ve had four relationships and none of them have been with guys who identify as the same race as I do. Two of them were white, one identified as white latino and the most recent one identified solely as latino. Two were guys I’d met at school, the other two were guys I met through work. With the exception of the first, a childhood friend, the reason why I chose to date these guys was because a) they were nice to me, b) they were reasonably intelligent and c) they asked me out. That’s it.

When black men date women of other races, I don’t consider it a personal affront. When black men don’t ask me out, I’m no more offended than when non-black men don’t ask me out. In fact, it only seems to be black men around my age who aren’t interested in dating me – boys my brother’s age and men my father’s age try to talk to me ALL THE TIME (except for when I was living in MA, so I feel your pain, Gorgeous Black Woman @#78). However, if a young black man around my age a) was nice to me, b) was reasonably intelligent and c) asked me out, I’d probably say yes.

My father (who happens to be my example of ideal black manhood) gave me the best advice on dating I’ve ever heard and it had nothing to do with whether I dated within or outside of my race. He said, “It doesn’t matter how he looks. If he can’t spell ‘cat’, what would you want with him?”

Posted 22 May 2008 at 8:48 pm ¶
Colin wrote:

I don’t think anyone reads the other comments because there’s a lot of talking but very little listening. I’m not surprised.

Don’t pretend not to understand just because you don’t like what I have to say. There is a reason why things are the way they are. When a demographic feels marginalized, they’re going to lash out. Additionally, when people are in a position of privilege, they’ll discredit or dismiss the notion of that privilege because they don’t wish for others to think they have it easier because translates into laziness -or- because they want to keep the status quo.

I work in a Wall Street firm, pay $4000 rent, and was brought up in an environment of privileged. I admit that. I was born into wealth. I went to the best schools. I had the best connections. There is NO way I can accurately relate to an African American kid that grew up in the slums which is plagued by gang violence. It’s just the way life is. However, I’m not going to actively dismiss his hardships and offer simplistic solutions to complex problems just so I can feel better about myself.

In this instance, Asian women defiantly have it easier than Asian men in certain respects. Dating is one of them and it galls me that they pretend otherwise. All I hear from Asian American women is repetitive droning about the evils of Asian Fetish and then proceed to date white men which indirectly promotes this fetish. When I hear complaints about Asian Fetish, all that translates to me is “Why can’t I find a white guy without the fetish?” but I digress.

My main point is this: No one seems to want to acknowledge the fact that this could affect Asian and white men.

Let’s just use a hypothetical situation. In eyes of white men, it might cause them to intercept this pairing as proving that Asian men just don’t cut it which causes white men to further disparage Asian men. Also, it might inflate their egos and go out of their way to ask Asian women out. This, in turn, causes the ratio to go up even further.

Now, in the case of Asian men, it would lower the morale of Asian men constantly seeing these pairings and think less of themselves. Given the situation of North American society and it’s habit of emasculating Asian men, this could have devastating consequences. This causes them to close up and ask Asian women out at a lower rate. I frequently hear “Asian men don’t ask me out” or “Asian men have little confidence.” Gee, let’s think about that for a minute; could it be because they constantly think you’re after white men that they don’t even bother? Or that they lose confidence in their own sexuality and abilities when they’re getting tag teamed by constantly media bombardment and constantly seeing white men with Asian women? To add onto that, among ethnic women, Asian women seem to have the largest ratio of females who trash and rape the public image of Asian men in North America. Let’s not lie to ourselves, ok? It’s true. Almost every single Asian man in America knows at least one.

It’s a huge circle jerk and Asian women are actively participating in it.

Why wouldn’t they? Men from every background are willing to date and marry them. Let’s apply that to my buddy who just graduated from UPenn Wharton. As soon as he graduated college, he was offered jobs from all sorts of firms. He dictated what he wanted and if they didn’t pay up, he could go elsewhere. No surprise, this caused him to become extremely arrogant. Asian American women seem to follow the exact same mantra because they’ve completely out leveraged Asian American men. There’s a huge power imbalance. If the wife has more power, the man is “whipped.” If the man has more power, he’s “domineering.”

Asian America women have much more clout than Asian American men and can dictate the rules. This means that they hold power over Asian men when it comes to looking for partners. If Asian men don’t listen, they’ll flee elsewhere. This, in turn, has caused their heads to become inflated and arrogant towards Asian men.

I’m through talking about this problem and actively dealing with it. My solution to all my Asian buddies to do what I did; go out of your way to date and marry non-Asian women. It might not be the best solution but it at least shows that Asian men can indeed compete with the best of them and that Asian men are no longer forced to be paired with Asian women. It’ll start to correct the power imbalance.

Look, you can say that my point is wrong or ugly. Or how my “eye for an eye” attitude doesn’t work. I wear my feelings and opinions on my sleeve and I hide nothing. I firmly believe that Asian women are more of a liability than an ally to Asian men in this country.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 10:36 pm ¶
Colin wrote:

Also, to the non-Asian women that are dating my friends, they’ve been kept in the loop. It’s interesting how they can quickly grasp the reason why Asian men are angry as well as fully support Asian men and their desires to date non-Asian women. They’re even starting to set up their other non-Asian female friends with great Asian guys.

If there’s one thing my parents taught me, it’s even the lowly acorn grows into a mighty oak tree.

Honestly, I’m not bitter at all but I am resentful. I think Asian guys have a right to be.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 10:39 pm ¶
wendimuse wrote:

just to clarify lm, that was carmen posting my response, not necessarily carmen´s thoughts
but yes, i agree. it goes both ways. that was just one of the examples i gave as i see it quite frequently. but yes, some of my latina and/or black friends on the smaller side express being ignored by men of their own ethnic backgrounds and being hit on by white men

Posted 22 May 2008 at 11:00 pm ¶
lowercase tasha wrote:

“ I am happily single because I can date and enjoy my life as I choose because I was careful who I bought into my circle (lower case Tasha) when I pursued long- term relationships I was responsible no serial engagments here. “
If you want to feel “offended” because I didn’t give you or any other person who pursued an IR a free pass then that’s sad on your part not mine.”

@eric

Look, I tried to be polite, so I’m just going to be direct. I didn’t ask you if you were happily single. I asked you why you didn’t see the irony in a, middle aged womanizer telling black women what they’re doing wrong when looking for spouses, when you don’t have one yourself, and only now, after being challenged about your angst regarding your failure to find a Sandy for your lake house (among other things), are you claiming to be happily single. You profess to offer solutions to this “imagined” eligible, black male shortage, that you claim black women are so fond of citing when looking outside the race to find mates, without realizing that you, yes, you, are part of the problem. I also asked you, if the shoe were on the other foot, and you were a black woman looking for a husband, would you be enthusiastic about taking advice on finding said spouse from someone your age, who has admitted to running through women like 5th place ribbons, and hasn’t/isn’t about to/and, from what I can tell, has no future plans to marry? I don’t expect you to respond. You’ve dodged enough questions.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 7:13 am ¶
Celeste wrote:

@ Colin You comment #179 is basically the exact same way my husband (who is Chinese-American) feels, except perhaps for the last part about asian women being a liability (I’ll have to ask him). Other than that, it’s like he wrote your post. Even though his demographic is more married than mine he holds a lot more resentment toward Asian women than I do toward black men. Do you think you would be able to befriend a WM/AW couple that you didn’t know already? I’m not sure he’dwant to unless he knew one of them before in another context.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 9:00 am ¶
lemure wrote:

This discussion (and that photo) is extremely fascinating to me, despite the regurgitation of some painful stereotypes and memories.

I spent alot of angry years on and off lamenting about why I spent so many nights watching White girlfriends, who I really thought I, and many of my girlfriends of color, were more attractive than both inside and out, get asked out and fawned over on endless dates. It was particularly hard in college, because I left my diverse NYC for an Ivy, AND it was my first allowed entry in the dating world.

I knew it wasn’t because I wasn’t good looking. Plenty of White, Black, and everything in between told me I was hot, hell a whole frat was infatuated. But, all these men just saw me as a sex object, not a potential relationship. I was very young, naive, and clueless. While I kept the wolves at bay, the entire experience left me very jaded and feeling quite tainted. I’m not biracial (not in the most immediate sense), at the time my appeal was based on form, face, probably an adorable Grenadian/Brooklyn accent and to both alot of Black (cuz they were raised with White people) and White men on being “something new”, especially since this NY kid wasn’t fearful of any new color.

I have two South Asian girlfriends, one is Pakistani, one is Indian and their experiences were the same as mine. I moved back to NY after college, with the bitterness of four years, that slowly subsided with age and wisdom. I learned to stay away from the type of guys I met in college and after a few long term relationships and many very, very short term. I decided not to date White men anymore. I dated plenty, too many issues of various kinds. My head knows that it isn’t fair, but my feelings are different. My South Asian girlfriends moved to NY, and you know what? They pretty much gave up on White men too, similar reasons. The Pakistani girl is trying to find her perfect Pakistani Muslim knight (she’s beautiful, but the ones she meets find her “too dark” and too career driven). My Bengali friend is American and finds it hard to meet a soul mate that matches her, but she’s shown interested in some cute East Asian doctors that work with her. I’m very tough and picky, but I didn’t find the perfect Grenadian man, but I’m in love with another Caribbean, Puerto Rico but close enough.

I don’t condone the namecalling in the name of bitterness, but I understand it. How one is perceived in desirability has a HUGE effect on one’s self esteem. Being a sex object can make you feel both powerful and powerless, lack of attention can make you feel non existent. Hell years ago I said to myself Asian men and Black women should try dating each other. Its worked pretty well in the islands (incl my tree) for awhile. Yeah love is love, but it would be nicer if everyone was getting it.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 1:10 pm ¶
lunanoire wrote:

G. Leigh- I do not want to dismiss your pain. I think beauty (esp. for women) is a double-edged sword and many people make assumptions based on it. Some people fit those expectations and eat it up; others prefer if others focus on their other attributes.
It boils down between the 2 bad (& false choices) between being ignored and devalued by many versus being valued by many for something superficial that dehumanizes you.
Looks matter. It is what it is.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 1:25 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

There you go again Tasha and Lyonside trying to equate me with a black boy loving Sandra Bullock in the “Lake House” (her character seemed my type of lady) or why I am criticizing BW so harshly about their choices or why I won’t swallow the lack of Black Males or any other pathology, I will tell both of you and the rest of you people who oppose me on this topic. Most human being unconsicously do whatt they have always wanted to they just want to make excuses for their choices instead manning up and saying this is what I prefer instead of dumb rationalizations to the contrary.

I think the 30 year mindset of letting women get away with sexist bad behavior they would jump on a man for in a minute is long overdue, “Some” African- American women in the past 20 years have used legitimate male sexual privilege issues in the black community to make themselves a “perfect victim”inside and outside the black community. If anything happens to Black Women it’s because African- American men caused it in the public discourse not because of bad choices they made in their lives or their attitudes towards the opposite gender, or because I am a “strong black woman”. Well I am sick and tired of Black Women acting like victims in cases they are truly not.

African- American women are human beings with complexities last time I read along with Asian – American Men and this sterotype that they are not wanted because they are too educated, dark, nerdy, bitchy or hard to deal with or any of those sterotypes is wrong on all levels. I am also tired of having African- American men looked at as a walking pathology and can’t wait to escape into the loving arms of “da white woman”.

All Asian men are not Geddy Wantanbe nor every Black Woman is Tiffany “New York” Pollard. But since many of you are more interested in seeing the small”racial” things I have said instead of the big picture to buttress your arguments Why don’t you ask your male spouses and their relatives how would they feel if their daughters came home with a Black, Mexican, Arab or Puerto Rican Male to marry or date.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 2:44 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@ Eric Daniels

“1. mind your own damn business
2. so what !! I marry who I want”

I’ve found these 2 work quite well especially number 1 for very nosy people. And last time I checked people could and do marry whosoever they want. Would you like to levy tariff’s against them?

90% huh? Where did you pull those numbers from? Me thinks the numbers are from your fourth point of contact.

I’m happy for your 3 friends but I hope you know that paying a price or going through adversity is not limited to IR relationships. I doubt the people who have posted so far informing us that they’ve been in IR relationships for a period are living in a fantasy world as you suggest.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 4:56 pm ¶
Sewere wrote:

Lyonside and Tasha mad props to you and anyone else for engaging Eric on the issue of interracial relationships especially as it relates to black women. Around these parts, I’ve long understood Eric’s belief that black women and black feminism are partly to blame for the denigration of black men to be an unsubstantiated ideology steeped in sexist loathing particularly of black women.

That is why I would rather have my tooth drilled without any anesthetic than to engage him.

On a lighter note, G. Leigh you wouldn’t be interested in a Nigerian man living in California and working in global health would you? (What? like I’m going to let an opportunity like this pass me by?)

Posted 23 May 2008 at 5:12 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@ Me

I heart you too

@atlasien
“I hate to be crude about it, but based on that blog post, Eric’s basic stance is pretty obvious. It’s common to men of a lot of different races (including white men). Interracial pussy = GOOD, interracial dick = BAD.”

Hahahahahha. I just spilled water all over my keyboard. You owe me a new keyboard yo.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 5:19 pm ¶
Sewere wrote:

@ lowercasetasha

See now, this is exactly what I’m talking about with the “Ya’ll ain t slick”. Ya’ll wanna have it both ways. When white people in Kentucky and Penn. vote for Hillary, they’re racists. When 90% of the black voting block is pro-Obama, it’s . . .Be among the talented tenth. Support Hillary 

I often appreciate your posts on Hillary because even though we have some disagreements your opinions are often backed with evidence. I don’t want to derail this thread so if you have time could you please post a response to the Speak Your Mind and Honesty will Flow post of May 15th? Thanks.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 6:10 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

Kelvin where did I say I was against anyone marrying whom they wanted? Where did I say that BW women couldn’t marry whom they choose?

1. Read my ‘whole comments ‘ before posting

Liberals are worse than conversatives because they don’t tolerate dissent of diferrent ideas and Sewere thank you for not engaging with me,since you are so “smart and open minded (lolol) I am not a modern feminist because I do believe in roles for MEN AND WOMEN in general because for all of man’s existence it has helped humanity keep some balance.

If 10 million Black women and those Black Men Intermarried at least they would be happy and not involved in the Black Community’s love life and there can be ‘real peace’ amongst black men and women who really want somone of the same ethnic group. For some of you “Harmony Chillin” most people do mind their own buisness and aren’t paying attention to mixed couples like yourselves because they have more important things to do like LIVE !!!!

Posted 23 May 2008 at 8:59 pm ¶
Marz wrote:

In this day and age we live in one global village, the boundaries between different races are getting blurred.

To me the more the merrier. Most of my grandparents are already multiracial. So when I was born, I’m already part Javanese Malay, Chinese and Indian. Though I fall into the umbrella of being just Asian. But being Asian does not mean being Chinese only!

Growing up was a little confusing because I wasn’t part of a particular racial group but in fact all racial groups in the country I was born. Nor did it help growing up in 3 different countries. There are times I feel quite displaced but the good thing is that I now know how to speak the different languages of my ethnicity. I enjoy the different cultures and festivals that are celebrated by my each racial groups. And celebrate what all life has to offer.

So back to dating, well I”ve dated white, black and asian. I’m still finding that man for me. But like what my grandmother said before she died, “I won’t be there when you get married but whoever or wherever from that man is, so long he’s a good man to you.

And to everyone else, at the end of the day it wat’s most important.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 10:06 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>Liberals are worse than conversatives because they don’t tolerate dissent of diferrent ideas

I’m really sick of this idea, usually used when people are losing an argument. Where/how do “social conservatives” tolerate dissent more than “social liberals”? And how are we not tolerating dissent on this socially liberal blog? I mean, your comments, infuriating as they are to me, are getting through, right? Here’s a concept – because people don’t AGREE, that doesn’t mean your ideas aren’t tolerated. We just don’t agree. Questioning logic and assuptions also does not equal intolerance of dissent. Dude, if you don’t understand that, then you FAIL at the intertubes.

>I am not a modern feminist because I do believe in roles for MEN AND WOMEN in general because for all of man’s existence it has helped humanity keep some balance.

*snicker* dude, really? Feminism is the radical idea that women are people. End stop. With their own inalienable rights, responsibilities, thoughts, and desires. Without equality, there is IMbalance… Oh wait, I guess you like it that way. Funny how good things look from the high end of the see saw.

>most people do mind their own buisness and aren’t paying attention to mixed couples like yourselves because they have more important things to do like LIVE !!!!

Then, judging by your words and your insults, I’m guessing you’re not one of those people. Go live, ericd – that’s all we’re asking. And stop hating on IRs, ‘kay? Or, you know, thinking that your POV is the onl one that counts.

Posted 24 May 2008 at 1:55 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>There you go again Tasha and Lyonside trying to equate me with a black boy loving Sandra Bullock in the “Lake House”

What movie now? Eric D, honey, put down the Netflix and get out of the house. I haven’t seen hardly ANY of the movies you love to list. I’m going by your own words, not some movie world.Wanna do the same?

Posted 24 May 2008 at 1:59 am ¶
Colin wrote:

Celeste,

I’m not surprised because more and more Asian men are starting to feel this way. The thing is, everything in life takes some common sense. This is why only morons say “Why is life so complicated?”

The reason why I bring that up is because anyone with half a brain can figure out why Asian men are upset. They feel marginalized in society. To make matters worse, Asian women are taking part in the marginalization.

Take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft_kY5KgCnE

Apparently, what she’s saying isn’t far from the truth that Asian women are becoming out of Asian men’s league.

Do me a favor. Everyone be stupid and ask me again why Asian men are angry? Next, you’ll ask why poor and starving people are angry at rich people who spend $5 for a cup of coffee.

Posted 24 May 2008 at 4:19 pm ¶
Nicole wrote:

I’m mixed (half black/white) and so is my boyfriend (half Chinese/white) so we already look like a Benneton ad. My really tolerant friends (ok, all my friends) are always saying how beautiful our children would be. However, we do still get stares and rude questions. I think it’s true that both Asian men and black women are negatively stereotyped in our society, and that makes it harder to find someone. I’m looking forward to the day when everyone is brown and it doesn’t seem to matter…it’s coming!

Posted 25 May 2008 at 10:56 pm ¶
gorgeous black women wrote:

Touching on the social liberals vs. conservatives point, while I don’t think think conservatives tolerate dissent better, I am finding that they are more willing to acknowledge privilege when it exists. “Color blind” is not a term I’ve ever heard from my right leaning friends. When disparities in dating or any race-related issue is brought up, it really does seem like social liberals are increasingly quick to dismiss them. I stumbled upon a thread on Yelp written by a black female college student on her love life or lack thereof. She asked what she should do since no one showed interest even though she had a diverse group of friends. Having lived here for a few months, I know what she’s talking about but people on there either attacked her or dismissed it.

Posted 25 May 2008 at 11:24 pm ¶
F.O. wrote:

That YouTube clip of that Asian-American comedienne was sad, but man… sister was easy on the eyes. She was like some glorious porcelain fountain spewing sweet, sweet self-hating, pandering racist flavored water.

I’m guessing the reason why certain Asian-American women can’t relate to Asian-American men and the difficulties AMs face is because they have no close male relatives or friends who they can sympathize with. Zero. None. Zilch. All only children. Surrounded by unfriendly Asian males. I also believe that certain Asian-American women who plan to have children know of some secret medical procedure that guarantees that any son they may have in the future doesn’t look Asian, thus no need to worry about what future generations of AMs might face. I heard it on Coast to Coast with that guy who is not Art Bell.

Oh, and I’m a Asian-American male and I date inter-racially out of spite. I hope to eventually meet a woman who is Not-Asian and filled with a degree of resentment and spite for the men of her ethic or racial group. Also it would be great if she had a high midi-clorian count.

Posted 26 May 2008 at 10:34 am ¶
Joanne wrote:

I am a black woman and I dated all different races. Black, white, hispanic, asian, middle eastern and haitan (black, but not the same as black american). I didn’t date anyone specifically for revenge. I’m married to a white man. He was the person I had most in common with and we had a ton of fun together.

No offense to any Asians, but I think Asian guys are either REALLY hot or REALLY not. I would love to hit up some Asian love. Leonardo Nam – Yum! So, I hope the Asian ladies out there are gettin’ some wherever they find it.

Posted 27 May 2008 at 1:34 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

Not trying to be a jerk but I just had to be #200

Posted 27 May 2008 at 2:56 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

> I am finding that they are more willing to acknowledge privilege when it exists

Gorgeous black woman, maybe IRL or among the people you know. But the self-avowed conservatives I see in the MSM, really, not so much. Usually, they’re the biggest offenders (see: O’Reilly, Buchanan, Haggity and Combs (or whatever that show is that claims to have a conservative and a “liberal”))… the only privilege I hear them talk about is usually brown and black people’s, specifically, how they have too much of it.

Posted 27 May 2008 at 3:17 pm ¶
BLOWTHETRUMPET wrote:

Hello there,

I wrote a post a few weeks ago titled, “Lost Absolution: White Men And Their Horrid History With Black Women” and I remarked that black women often face suspicion and scorn from other black women when they choose to partner with white men because of what white men symbolize in the minds of so many black women.

Black women also find that their blackness is called into question when they choose to partner with men (or with women) of other races.

Thanks for letting me blow my trumpet!
Lisa

Posted 27 May 2008 at 7:32 pm ¶
Lola wrote:

Late here.

“COLIN” perfectly described in his problem with Asian Women how I feel towards black men, not bitter but resentful as well.

You see the clip of that Asian Female comedian that you posted? Well that kinda reminded me of how D.L.Hugley cracked jokes on us about the DON IMUS case in front of millions of viewers on national television. I totally understand how Asian Men feel. What is tragic is that even in my family I’ve been stereotyped by BM, and when I said “but am I what you describe black women to be? what about the rest of the BW in the family are they that?” I had no answer, bcos these excuses are lame.

IR dating isn’t the problem, it’s the fact that not only BM stereotype us, but they got cocky. If they date you they act like they’re doing you a favor. We better be happy we have one cause at any moment he could – to quote Kanye – “leave you for a white girl” (I have no problem with WW I’m just talking about something real). Not to mention some literally tell you to your face that they prefer a woman that isn’t black, preferrably white. Ever been to a party where there were far more black girls than white girls and asian girls, black dudes wouldn’t give black girls the TIME OF THE DAY? I’ve experienced that so much its not even funny. But let a BLACK WOMAN FLIRT WITH A NON-BLACK MAN and ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE!

Until recently I used to be so “for the misunderstood brothers” I was the first to defend them even when I didn’t see the love reciprocated, the first to try and be understanding. I used to love them with every fiber of my body heart and soul. Politely rejected many non-black men cos it was all about the brothers, silly me. At the end of the day, they don’t belong to us and we don’t belong to them, and it was never a problem w/ me, it’s the cockiness and stereotyping that is hard to deal with. But I won’t spend my time being mad at something that I can’t change, I’m just through. I can’t stay in an atmosphere of hate, I’m gone. I need love as well.

This is just my experience though, not everyone’s I guess. Hate me all you want but I’d rather be honest about it, to answer the initial question : Hell yeah I’m happy as heck when I see non-black men date and marry black women!

Posted 27 May 2008 at 10:18 pm ¶
Miao wrote:

This topic is very interesting and strange to me. I’m hispanic, though to be perfectly honest being the nineth generation in this country (and state- yup, my family was here back when it was mexico) I find myself effectively white-washed. I’m culturally american and find that I am not Hispanic or Mexican enough for latinos who are 1-2 generations here. I constantly get hostility for not speaking spanish- from hispanics and from non-hispanics who imagine that Mexicans in California only get here by crossing the border and working in fields. ALL of that said, I’ve always been open to people of all races/ethnicities/nationalities- if I can be forgiven for any ignorance, I am happy to learn about another person, and their culture. I have been friends with, and dated people of all colors and beliefs, and it NEVER occurred to me that it was even an issue, (not until others bring it up anyway.) I identify myself as a woman, and not so much with my ethnic group- so if you’re a man, then you have a very real and equal opprotunity to date me. I am always saddend to find people judging my relationships, or my lover for anything outside of who we are as individuals, and what we share between us. I’m not implying that my experiences have all been perfect- for example; when dating black men, I’ve been cussed out by a black woman for stealing him away (I thought at first she was being literal- ha, I imagined myself as an unwitting “other woman”) and told off by hispanic men. And when dating white men, I’ve had their families assume that I was not native to the country, or that if I’m over for dinner they aught to make me an authentic mexican meal- because as a mexican, I only eat mexican food? I also have faced the expectation that I will be a fiery latina (I have no idea what that means) and have had men date me expecting a sexual prowess and exotic experience from me that I am not capeable of. I’ve been told that I’m too dark, not latin enough, not white enough, if you can think of something I could be, I’ve been told both that I am too much of it, and also not enough of it. I’ve dated middle eastern men, and hispanic men, both in the US and abroad… I date a man for who he is, and generally the men who date me don’t get to date me for long if they’re looking for a *insert stereotype* latina. As for the topic of Asian Men- my current boyfriend is asian american, and I love him to death. Maybe because I am not a spicy, fiery latina- I don’t even think of stereotypes- I’m always shocked when I hear them, and in fact, with stereotypes concerning asians, I’ve heard more about them from asians then from anyone else. The only exception being the one about endowment, or supposed lack thereof- I can’t believe how many people ask if it’s true when they find out that my boyfriend is asian. (No, it’s not.) What I was drawn to about him was his sense of humor, intelligence, good looks (the kind of good looking that causes you to bite your lip) and the fact that he lets me be myself. That’s what it’s about. There are issues though, his family was not ready to accept me initially, his last relationship was with a White woman (as in Snow- White) and now he’s with a hispanic woman. I do feel like the sentiment was that its bad enough I’m not asian, but now he’s just moving down the ladder- which is completely insane! But they’re learning to accept me, and I’m learning to handle his family’s preconceptions, and I try damn hard to be loving and accepting to them always, because I love him, and if we’re going to work at all, it has to work on all sides. My family loves him, they love anyone who is good and kind and makes me happy- and isn’t that the point? I don’t date him because he’s asian, and he doesn’t date me because I’m hispanic or NOT asian- we’re together because we fit well together and have similar goals and ideas. My Mum says that being in a relationship is really about being a team, if your team members aren’t on the same page, if they don’t share the same goals and work together and support each other, then you can’t win, because you don’t have a team. Also- there are so many women out there, who love asian men- to the exclusion of all others in fact. As for black women, I do know a lot of jerk guys (some black) who say they wouldn’t date a black girl- for all the stereotypical, racist reasons. But the fact of the matter is that anyone who thinks this way is ignorant, and shallow. I grew up in an area that is well mixed ethnically, with white, black and latinos making up the majority- my two best friends from waaay back are black and have never wanted for dates. And Equally, I know a ton of men who think that black women are the embodiment of feminine beauty and power. There are a lot of stereotypes out there, and ignorant people who buy into them, but all that matters is you, and how well you know yourself and what you want. Confidence is key- it can help you provide illumination and break down the preconceptions others have about you, a confident man or woman is attractive, period. Be bold and love who you are and never settle for less than you deserve. And let the negativity go, you want a good man (or woman) right? So then why are you worried about the fool that doesn’t know a great person when they walk up and say, ‘hi’?

Posted 28 May 2008 at 3:25 am ¶
DiosaNegra1967 wrote:

I’m not even gonna stick my $0.05 cents in this one, ‘cos there are far too many intelligent individuals who’ve apparently read my mind and have posted….

<3 <3 <3 y’all….

Posted 29 May 2008 at 10:48 am ¶
bmorelive wrote:

I have to agree that who a person dates depends on his or her social circle. Also, I think it has a bit to do with *where* a person lives. For instance, I am a white gay woman involved with a black woman. I live in Baltimore, an urban environment that, while predominantly African American, has quite a number of skin colors and cultures to choose from. I am a teacher, and in my department, there are two white men married to black women, a white man married to a Filipino woman, and a Hispanic man married to a whie woman. Previous to my current partner, I was in a 4-year relationship with a Hispanic woman. Perhaps, like the individual from London observed, urban environments allow for more flow and ease of interracial dating and relationships.

As for staring at interracial couples, I agree with the person that said that they stare at interracial couples. I do, as well. Not because I’m judging but because I appreciate it (I appreciate that there are other people out there in the world like us). This is not unlike how I look for gay and lesbian characters in film, TV, and movies that are somehow not cringe-worthy stereotypes.

I like to lean over to my partner and say, “Look at the other cute swirl couple.” Or, “Look at teh beautiful swirl children.”

Posted 02 Jun 2008 at 4:41 pm ¶
Colin wrote:

It’s perfectly fine for someone to be resentful; maybe even bitter. For some reason, it’s slightly more acceptable for someone to be bitter about employment inequality (like blacks suffer from) or sexism (which women suffer from) than it is to feel emasculated and sexually dismissed (which Asian men suffer from).

The fact that Asian women also jump into the fray to dismiss this concern just proves that Asian women aren’t interested in helping Asian men, they’re merely interested in coming to Asian men for support on their own issues. They’re like the ultimate social user.

As someone else said, it’s annoying for Asian women to take the “high horse” route and wonder why Asian men feel irritated about this issue. Since they don’t experince a specific loss or they don’t feel shortchanged, they don’t care. To be fair, it affects everyone. Like my father always said, “the brain can’t turn.”

This is why I also get annoyed at Asian women who get annoyed when men dismiss sexism. How ironic.

Learn to help with the emasculation of Asian men and we’ll be more inclined to help with sexism. This discussion of Asian women and white men is so retarded and old because everyone knows the answer but don’t want to acknowledge it because they don’t like it.

Posted 02 Jun 2008 at 4:54 pm ¶
Padraigin wrote:

Wow. I just read. A lot.

And I have to say, as a queer person, I wanted to say something.

It seems to me that, for us, race isn’t treated like it’s as big of a deal as it is for our straight friends. I’m pretty sure that once my ma and dad knew that, someday, I’d be bringing home a special woman, and not a man, it was pretty much a non-issue as to her color.

I do know that, were I straight, they would advise me not to date outside my race because of the prejudice other people feel about the issue. But for gay couples, I mean, once you’re gay, that’s what people are worried about. Very rarely does a person accept a couple for being gay, but reject them on the basis of race. Homophobia and racism have huge overlaps.

Census data says gay couples are 10x more likely than straight couples to be mixed.

And in my experience, it seems to be true.

Only in gay media have I found interracial relationships portrayed in a way that’s not “OMG, those two! Really? But they don’t match!” sort of way. It’s not remarkable in mainstream gay film to see a mixed couple, and race doesn’t have to be the defining issue of the couple, like it does in straight film.

Posted 04 Jun 2008 at 12:31 am ¶
Rose wrote:

I’m so sick of this.

Excuse after excuse after excuse. Since when does choosing/finding a romantic partner come down to excuses about why we haven’t chosen someone else???

Mr. and Ms. I-don’t-date-women/men-of-my-own-race because-they-aren’t-in-my-social-circle: explain to me, are you saying that there has never been ONE attractive man/woman from your ethnic background that has crossed your path, long enough for you to take notice??? Is that the excuse you use to get yourself off the hook?

Or maybe you prefer your social circle just as it is. If so, JUST ADMIT IT.

I’ve dated outside my race my entire life. I can find a man of my own race *physically* attractive, but not *sexually* attractive. I’ve been shamed for this. SHAMED. Add this to the guilt that I’ve felt since childhood. Feeling like I have to change or “fix” myself so that everyone else will be happy.

Forgive me for having the gall to own up to my life experience and say, unapologetically,”THAT’S WHAT I LIKE”.

Don’t YOU try to explain to me who I *should* be with, don’t YOU try to explain to me what my “problem” is, don’t YOU try to tell me who I “belong” with. Don’t you worry about me and my truth. Worry about your own, you’re the one who has to die with it.

Posted 05 Jun 2008 at 4:29 pm ¶
Ada wrote:

I grew up a middle class girl with Nigerian parents in the Silicon Valley. So most of my interactions with other black people were with Nigerians and we regarded them as family. So I have this ingrained view of other black people as family and everyone else as not. That’s gradually changed with age of course. Ironically, I took a liking to Asian guys in high school; outside of other Nigerian-Americans I could identify with them and they didn’t look like family haha. But I’ve gotten the sense that Asians don’t like to date outside of their race, immigrant parents hold a lot of old country racist views, mine included. I have no issue with dating outside my race, but look at the stats. People are open to it, but not that many. Interracial couples are not too uncommon in the extremely diverse Silicon Valley, but black women and asian men are definitely not in the majority of those relationships. BTW, the pic of the couple is SO CUTE. They are adorable.

Posted 08 Jun 2008 at 2:21 am ¶
bijou wrote:

A mid-twenties Asian American female perspective follows. I apologize if what I am about to say has been said already. I feel obligated to offer my own (no one else’s, no generalizations) views.

I grew up in NYC and have lived here my entire life. I am highly educated with a doctoral degree. I consider myself (and have been told by others) above-average-looking (for the entire female population, not just “for an Asian”). I’m not psychotic. My childhood friends were mostly Latino/a and Asian. I never saw white kids on a regular basis until high school, and I never socialized with them on a regular basis until the latter years of college.

Through most of my college years, I fiercely desired to date exclusively Asian. I was aware of the marginalization of both Asian men and women and I wanted to keep my race pure, to give birth to Asian babies, and do my part to strengthen the position of Asian Americans in this country. Surprisingly, my immigrant parents’ preference that I date and marry within the race played no role.

I haven’t dated an Asian man in 3 years. My most recent boyfriends and flings have been (shocker ahead) white.

The reasons for my turnaround are highly personal and specific and have nothing to do with race politics. Simply put, the relationships I had with the Asian men I dated last were unhealthy and damaging to my self-esteem and self-respect. When I started dating my first white boyfriend, I grappled with what it meant for my race ideology. I felt like a sellout.

I got over it.

At some point, I decided to put my happiness and well-being ahead of an ideal that may or may not ever materialize. Looking back at my relationships with Asian men, I could say that their demise was simply because of personality differences or two people having divergent expectations for the relationship. But I was always left feeling unwanted, undesired – like something was wrong with ME. Well, if that indeed was the case, I thought, then I may as well go where I’m wanted.

And I haven’t looked back since.

Am I still open to dating Asian men? Absolutely. But I still have yet to sense signals from an Asian man that any relationship we have will not be a damaging one. Until then, I will content myself with white boys.

Posted 15 Jun 2008 at 11:07 pm ¶
mingtian wrote:

Bijou:

Can you elaborate more on what you mean by “damaging”?

You seem to imply, not so subtly, that Asian men don’t treat their SOs very well.

I would like to think that race has no bearing on how much I “want” someone else. You don’t seem to think along these same lines.

Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 1:48 am ¶
hey, an asian guy wrote:

To #209 Ada,
I’ve dated black women (although I grew up in a black/hispanic neighborhood) and my asian male friends today have no problem dating women of other ethnicities. Don’t be discouraged by past experience

I’m with Colin on this. If the right girl comes along I don’t care what her background is, but I only pursue non-asian females today. It’s obvious even on the internet, asian women reject their same-race partners more than any other demographic. They can play stupid all they want, justify their “preference”, call asian guys bitter. And we’re the bad guys for feeling unwanted. We even have a few asian guys who attack each other and deny that we have a reason to be upset. I for one am sick of it. Asian guys stand up.

Posted 16 Jun 2008 at 3:08 pm ¶
bijou wrote:

mingtian:

i emphasized in my post that my experiences were highly personal and specific to me and that i was not making any sweeping generalizations. thus, i was not implying anything about how Asian men, as a class, treat their romantic companions. indeed, i judge people solely based on my personal experiences with them.

i agree with you when you say that race should have no bearing with how much someone “wants” someone else. i’m absolutely sure that my failed relationships with Asian men were due to confounding factors entirely separate from race. however, those factors seemed to have repeatedly manifested themselves in Asian men with whom i have had personal contact (again, i am not generalizing).

could it be selection bias? maybe. could the true “problem” lie with me? not impossible. be that as it may, this is my situation and my reasons for expanding my dating pool to white men.

Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 1:18 pm ¶
jook wrote:

Colin wrote:

I’m not surprised because more and more Asian men are starting to feel this way. The thing is, everything in life takes some common sense. This is why only morons say “Why is life so complicated?”

The reason why I bring that up is because anyone with half a brain can figure out why Asian men are upset. They feel marginalized in society. To make matters worse, Asian women are taking part in the marginalization.

Take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft_kY5KgCnE

Apparently, what she’s saying isn’t far from the truth that Asian women are becoming out of Asian men’s league.

It’s a Darwinian game; survival of the fittest. Asian women are not interested in coddling the hurt egos of marginalized Asian men. Asian women know that their stock is high on the supply and demand curve of the IR dating marketplace. They notice great interest coming their way from many white men. Simultaneously, they feel that many Asian men are not up to par. The thing that I hear a lot these days from single Asian women is that Asian guys are “behind the learning curve”. Who do you think they are comparing you to? Their instinct is to instigate rivalry among Asian males and White males. It’s all part of the Asian females mating strategy. In that sense, Asian women are similar to the female chimpanzees of the Budongo Forest of Uganda.

Asian men need to get clued in to what’s going on, adapt to the environment, and be more competitive, stop whining, and be more proactive.

Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 6:15 pm ¶
Measha wrote:

I feel that black women support, baby and try to mold black men too much. Black women accept way too much just to have a black man, like them being unemployed, them not supporting their kids, them cheating, being abusive and having to financially support them. Black women feeling that their job is to prop up black men, create and make them into men. Well I feel if they are not men by the time they are grown then why should I have spent my time trying to teach them to be real men?

Now I feel more black women are and will continue to date outside of their race because family and social restraints have lessened on black women and white men who wish to date IR due to the overwhelming black men and white women IR relationships also black women and white men feel free-er to express their attraction for one another. Black women realize that they have been too dependent on the small pool of African American men for bfs and husbands and this has only backfired in black men taking black women for granted, ill treatment and resentment. In addition to there being a shortage of decent black men, black men immgrating to other races of women, there is this rotten mentality that many men in the black community have adopted and which black women are getting fed up on and seeking nonblack partners with more to offer.

Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 2:32 pm ¶
js wrote:

In the female asian culture (I cant speak for the male, though I assume it’s the same — in NY), dating a white male is more acceptable than dating a black one.

In the black male culture, dating an asian female is more accepted than dating a white one.

The slack for black men come mostly from their female peers. It is also used as a reason to shut down any opinions on the black race/racism coming from the black man dating a white woman, as if they lose credibility. But when they date asian women, it is often muttered about but put to the side — though I must say, those relationships are viewed very temporarily, as if the black male was dipping into a momentary fetish to “get it out of his system.”

Perhaps it is the crowd I run with, or perhaps it is because I often find myself dating black men (passiveness and low self-esteem turns me off, which I encounter in most of the asians I meet), but black male/asian female interracial dating is extremely commonplace here.

There are a lot of black men who gravitate towards the asian cultures, their reason being that they are not aggressive enough to match the culture of their own, and they often get called gay or dismissed by the women of their own race (in general, asian cultures are much more passive). That, and deep down inside, they see that asian women are easy.

Among asian families, their daughter dating a white man is “okay”, if they MUST date outside their race. But dating a black man is grounds for disowning, punishment, insistance on breaking up. Many of your peers will assume that you are just a “nigg*r lover,” (and call you this, too, though bracketed inside jokes), and laughably, will try to hook you up with any and every black male they befriend.

I personally find it hard as an asian female to date white men. I’ve tried, and in the future, I will try again. But it’s unnerving to see the level of control they exert in the bedroom, the things that come out of their mouth, it’s gone as far as having 2 men lose erections in bed because I showed more aggression than they would have preferred.

Being an asian female in the realm of interracial dating puts you on a defense all the time. The ‘knowing’ smiles on your mate’s friends faces at introduction proves how much of a fetish we are whittled down to.

I think this might have just turne dinto a rant. I apologize.

Posted 22 Jun 2008 at 4:23 pm ¶
MatchMaker wrote:

Where are you Asian men who will date and marry a woman who is not Asian or white, but purely your perfect match? I’ve matched 4 couples, all BW with other than BM (2 BW/WM, 1BW/Indian, 1BW/Jewish). The BW who are single and have approached me to help them tell the most pitiful stories of how rejected they feel not just by BM, but also by Asian men. Are Asian men scared? Shy? Not interested? Or is this a phenomenon just in Atlanta/the south?

Posted 11 Jul 2008 at 1:27 am ¶
Kb wrote:

I am a white, american, female dating a black, american, male. He comes from a majority black culture and I come from a majority white culture. The biggest issue we have run into is that my family is not open minded(they are baby boomers, fyi) and they have threatened to disown me. Guess what. I have decided that my life is my choice and I love him because he is my other half. He is awesome. His only reaction to my family is and was, well, “if we are going to sleep in your parents bed let me know now so that I can buy an air mattress and WE can sleep on a floor”. I have had to provide jusifictation for my actions to almost every member of my family. It does not matter. I did not start dating him because he was african american. I started dating him because he made me laugh. He has only dated black females in the past. Although this scares me a bit because I have never dated a white man(the thought just never occured to me that I should need or want to). Ive never had a serious realationship before(I’m early 20s, hes mid). The only thing that I regret in dating him is that I have no desire to introduce him to my family and he has no desire to meet them until we are already married. It hurts. It stings like hell to not have your signifigent other able to sit in the same room as your father. It hurts. So much. It seems liek everybody who is in an interrace couple just has love and flowers all day long. The truth is, in every realationship I have ever come across is that it is work. Im young. Hes young. If we decide to be together, its our deal. I just wish that everybody would stop blaming everybody else and realize that this world has come a long way and we have a long way to go. I love him, he loves me, and nobody else gets a vote. period.

Posted 20 Jul 2008 at 2:46 am ¶
Cd wrote:

I am a white male, dating a black/latin woman. We have been dating for 2 years now, and we are looking towards marriage after we graduate from college. There are all kinds of factors for us, none out of spite. I am going to a south-central Missouri school, heavily conservative, and she is also in a very conservative school setting (NE/IA).

My family is very white; my ethnicity is strictly French/Scott/Swede with relatives that are so far in the sticks that they don’t know why I am offended by the use of the n-word. My immediate family is very understanding, and they love her just as much as I do.

In her family, one side is pure Puerto Rican, and the other is only African American. I haven’t met her extended families as they live in various state, so I don’t know their attitude. However, her parents have no problem with me.

So far, so good.

Being in public is when we notice how we are perceived by others. We receive stares all the time in the Omaha area. But when we visited Tampa, no one cared one bit, which was a nice change. But here in the Mid-West, there are still a lot of changes needed.

No one has ever asked why I date her or accused me of spite, but the looks I get remind me of the situation. I never think about it until then. Just the other day, going through Target, there were 4 Black men sitting at a table. The girlfriend and I were leaving and I saw one of them stare and nudge the others. I looked away as I exited, but it was still unnerving, knowing what they may have been saying/thinking. They were young, about 19, but then there are the older generations. They sometimes will scowl at us, at a fair, or a park.

Neither of us hold anything against any race’s genders. I have been asked at times, “Why date her? You ‘know’ how Black (sometimes ‘Latin’) women are?!” My only response is, she makes me happy.

And on that note, people can keep giving us stares and scowls, but she makes me happy, and that truly is all that matters. I just don’t get how so many people can’t accept/see that…..

Posted 05 Aug 2008 at 2:34 pm ¶
Clifton wrote:

I am a 30 year old Black male who had dated a White female for the past few years, and I have dated White women before my current relationship. My father and I recently had a discussion about self-hate, the “niggas vs. the man” phenomenon that still plagues the Black community, and interracial dating, among other things. We both came to the (generalized) conclusion that a lot of young Black men who become successful and/or rich date White women for the same reason they buy multiple cars with big rims and speakers, extremely gawdy expensive jewelry and other things that help sustain the stereotypical image of “Blackness” : it’s the “I couldn’t have this before” mentality. Growning up poor or from the wrong side of the tracks, or growning up in a culture that oozes self-hate and self-suppression makes a person WANT to get everything he never could have growning up. So yes, there is a lot of show-boating going on, even if it’s not evident to the…ummm….”showboater” For a lot of Black men, being with a White woman is equated to driving a Bentley. But Bentleys tear up and break down just like every other car!

What I’ve always found funny is how most people will constantly try to figure out why certain people are in interracial relationships, but they never ask why a person ISN’T in one. It’s as if it’s required at birth for you to only date/marry/have hot passionate sex with someone of your own race! If I ask a White girl if she dates black guys/only date white dudes (sometimes I have to; my radar does always pick them out) and she says no/yes, I don’t get offended because I know everyone has a personal preference. People should really understand personal preferences, and stop taking things so personally, regardless of the reason behind that personal choice. Honestly I don’t care if people stare/ask questions, etc, that doesn’t offend me. What offends me is not those who don’t date interracially, but those who would NEVER date interracially.

Posted 17 Aug 2008 at 1:11 pm ¶
sandra wrote:

I am an Indain women(east indain decent) married to a black man for 14 yrs, we have four kids and happily in love. In my opinion their should be more interracial couples, my kids are all in a different league of their own, there choices of someone special are from different races, and we accept that, they are not bound to any traditions, although my parents still this day don’t speak to me and my husband family don’t speak to him either, this made our relationship stronger. to everyone out there, take a chance, experience, be happy!

Posted 22 Aug 2008 at 10:33 am ¶
Debow wrote:

I am a man of color. Some people call me Afro/American; some call me a negro; some call me colored and some even call me brother. As a man of color; I have integrity, dignity and respect for all. I share my wisdom with those who care to listen and I judge not one for the fear of being judged.
God don’t make mistakes and if everyone attempted to seek the Kingdom first then the interracial issues wouldn’t be a concern.
We should all LOVE one another as we love ourselves. Frankly; I think we all have something to offer each other.
I try not to live in the past nor do I believe in the stereotypes that people place on other ethnic groups. I take everyone at face value. All things will be reveiled in time.
As far as interracial dating is concerned; it should be a personal preference. I LOVE woman in general. I prefer woman of color; whether they are African, indonesian, latin, Asian or mulatto.
In my youth I dated many woman of color and a few white, but I can’t really explain why white woman have not been able to hold my interest for an extended period of time. I believe the chemistry has to be there inorder for people to maintain a good healthy relationship. Just because something looks good doesn’t always mean it’s good for you. Does that sound familiar? Getting to know people takes time and it won’t happen over night.
Personnally there is nothing more beautiful than a woman of color. A humble woman that desires only to be LOVE and appreciated and gently touched. A woman that ask only for the necessities and desires to share the wholesome things life has to offer. A woman that is welling to work with a man through thick and thin, good and bad, rich and poor, good times and bad, trusting on all levels and welling to stand firm for what you believe and a ability to communicate effectively. Education, good careers and money are nothing if you are not happy. Instilled in everyone of us are the qualities listed above. Whether we choose to us them on a daily basis or not can determine want type of people you will attract. The United States is the only country that has a hard time digesting interracial relationships.
Peace and LOVE

Posted 29 Aug 2008 at 5:32 am ¶
Goe Yang wrote:

WOW it feels great to know im not the only one who has been thinking about this subject. I am an asian women in her 20’s and i am currently dating a blk man. I have come across so much problems that i sometimes need questions to. my parents HATE the fact that im dating a blk man and all my friends always ask my why a blk guy? I also find that many asian men tend to ask me why and sometimes i think they feel that i am against dating my own race. Its not. its that i am attracted to darker men. Sometimes when we go out in the public together, i get stared down by blk women or he gets stared down by asian men. i dont get what the problem is. but all i know is that it makes us different. love goes deeper then the skin, and sometimes people take it the wrong way. we would be better off if everyone knew how to embrace the interracial dating.

Posted 23 Sep 2008 at 5:16 pm ¶
CHINA DOLL wrote:

I am attracted to asian boys, well ‘m still kind of young. My whole thing on this is i despise rasciest people. i never dislike some one, because of their skin color, or because of who they are think about no one asked to be who they are we just came they way were are. The best we can do is just change our personailty, and attitude. i respcet people culteurs, and who they are. Any ways i really like asians my only problem is that i dont no any that would be intersted in me, or even were to look for one.

Posted 02 Oct 2008 at 7:54 pm ¶
Ric wrote:

Why do some of famous Chinese actressses are married or with white males, but Chinese male actors are not?

Zhang Ziyi, Maggie Cheung, Michelle Yeoh, and even Gong Li are with White men( who are not famous people)

Now Imagine if some leading ladies here in Hollywood would hook up with Asian men…

Posted 19 Nov 2008 at 5:06 pm ¶
slav wrote:

Compartmentalizing people by shade and ethnicity is a uniquely American dilemma. And it’s one that will erode in this century.

There’s no solution but to be an individual who intrinsically searches in a partner what he or she wants and goes for it.

It’s as simple as that.

Posted 25 Nov 2008 at 7:17 am ¶
genq10 wrote:

I don’t feel offended or hurt when I see a (yet another) AAM/WF could or a WM/AW couple. I don’t know whether culture influenced their coupling and I really don’t care. I do, however, despise the White Supremacist hierarchy that determines which races are acceptable and which ones are socially abhorred and scorned. The bias towards certain races (of certain genders) is not only present in the dating sphere, it is also reflected in the larger social sphere–just look at which races are given the “honorary white (as long as you obey the status quo) card” in social situations and which ones are given the cold shoulder (typically). The same pattern emerges.

Posted 13 Dec 2008 at 2:11 am ¶
ORD wrote:

Hm, I read the comments here, and I feel of course that nothing has been settled. I’m a white guy who hasn’t dated a white American girl in a few years. I definitely have an attraction for the foreign in general, so I’m definitely into Europeans as well. But I do have to say, I am very attracted to Asian women. Although there has been a lot of racism against Asians over the years, Western respect for Eastern culture actually runs quite deep, starting with Marco Polo. As Europeans were battling Muslims throughout the centuries, European thinkers like Voltaire were idealizing the Chinese from afar. However, the West sort of ended up concluding that East Asia had “declined” as a result of losing its fighting spirit and had become decadent (read: feminized), what with the opium smoking and all. That’s not really historically accurate, but it’s the Western view. I myself definitely feel part of this tradition of fascination with Asia. It’s only going to increase with the rise of China. In this case, racism against Asians will lose some of its material basis as an Asian country begins to be the equal of America and Europe.

I’m definitely more into African girls than I am into black American girls. This must again be my interest in the foreign. I just feel it’s so limiting to be in a wholly American world. I have had some contact with black American girls, and while it’s actually relieving on the race issue (white girls feel awkward about race – black girls speak their minds), I still feel every bit as trapped in America…

The solution to the imbalances that exist, I think, are not for black men and Asian women to stop dating “out”. I really think the only solution is for everyone to be as open-minded as possible. The other way leads only to racism, unfortunately. There need to be couples like WM/BF, BF/AM, WF/AM, etc etc… How to get there is harder to say for me – my field tends to have a lot of white Americans plus many many foreigners, but not a lot racial diversity within the American group.

Posted 19 Jan 2009 at 3:40 pm ¶
pax wrote:

The solution is obvious. Once the gender disparity balances out, there is less likely to be these kind of anger and emotions going on. I just truly wished they had an affirmative action program that would allow black women and Asian men to marry white partners and even out this disparity overnight.

Posted 07 Mar 2009 at 8:02 am ¶
Nisha wrote:

hi guys, i feel that alot of this trend leaving black women and asian men out is not coincedence at all, b

lack women are in some light, looked down upon, masculinized and labelled as “the bitch” for lack of a better term,and the media seems to overlook the asian male, and emasculate him.. right now black guys are being sold as the “bad boy”, masculine, exciting, and alot of women are playing into that.

i think alot of them also seek these relationships to escape the realities of the disparity between black men and women, that being, income, child abandonment and so on, they may look to “other women” who are not privy to this reality and therefore do not give them a hard time as it’s seen.

at least from what i h ave heard, this isnt the case for asian guys, you all seem to be making good money here and have excelled quickly in all social strata, there is no particular stigma attached to you because of history, not to say that there have not been racist points in history towards asian americans.

most asian guys seem to go for other asian women or maybe white, latina, etc. b ut hardly if ever black, i feel that asian men look down on black women also, and i have gotten this impression from asian males that i have known. although i did know a stunning Korean man who was sexy as all outdoors, tall , and coud have had his way with anyone.

i don’t think black women are any less sexy, desirable or that we all have stinky attitudes, we are not monolithic, neither are asian men, but it just so happens that white male supremacy is in the work for both communities, just in different ways.

i currently date a white guy, my clicking with him was nothing to do with race or preference, but i do not apologize for who i am attracted to these days, i feel like i have 2 look out for my own well being happiness, trust me, noone else is.

Posted 11 Mar 2009 at 11:44 am ¶
GENQ10 wrote:

I’m returning to this convo a year later.

Hey, mod, question: why did you let ORD post? that’s some of the most racist, offensive stuff I’ve read in a while.

@ORD: you’re messed up, dude. There is no monolithic “east” and “west”. You have a creepy racial fetish and you need to get over yourself.

Posted 18 May 2009 at 5:25 pm ¶
Sheree wrote:

While its true that i find not many black men are attracted, so its seems at least, that has influenced my decision to be in interracial relationships. For one thing, I just don’t find myself attracted to black men very often, its not a conscious choice, you can’t help how ypu feel. But I didn’t notice this until later in life. I’ve always been drawn to people of other races, its how I’m wired. I remember the very first person outside my race to catch my attention; he had blond hair, blue eyes, and I thought he was beautiful…I was 6 at the time. So for me its just the way I’m put together. And in following with the topic of the post, I’ve never dated an asian man ironically, because I find myself more attracted to asian men than any other race. Not more often, but certainly more strongly.

Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 4:50 am ¶
Sheree wrote:

I left off a few letters there, I meant to say that it hasn’t influenced my decision to date interracially.

Posted 18 Jun 2009 at 4:52 am ¶