Interracial Dating: Interracial Dating with a Vengeance at Racialicious

Interracial Dating: Interracial Dating with a Vengeance

by Guest Contributor Nadra Kareem

“I hope he dates a white girl.”

A few years ago a visitor to actor John Cho’s page on the Internet Movie Database left this comment. The commenter, presumably an Asian male, explained that he made the statement because it would serve Asian women right if a desirable Asian male ended up with a white woman, since Asian women so often end up with white men.

At the time, I didn’t make much of the comment. I thought it was the lone view of a person who felt that the women of his race had betrayed him. But more recently, I’ve seen a slew of comments like this one pop up online. Visit Halle Berry’s IMDB page or any site that mentions the baby girl she had with white Canadian model Gabriel Aubry, and you’ll find a series of remarks, left presumably by black women, that not only applaud Berry’s decision to partner with a white man but also express resentment against black men for not committing to black women. Black men are afraid of marriage, dating white women, in jail, “on the down low” or dead, the commenters argue, and, if they wait around for black men to get their act together, they just might end up childless and alone.

Now, I realize that these comments stereotype Asian women and black men, but they beg the question: Do Asian men and black women find themselves in interracial relationships for different reasons than their female and male counterparts, respectively, do? When Asian men and black women date whites, or any other group, is it a way to give the middle finger to those they feel have rejected them or, at the very least, avoid ending up alone?

Before I go on, I want to stress that I know that there are plenty of Asian women available for Asian men to date and plenty of black men available for black women to date (though black women reportedly have the lowest marriage rate of any other group of women), but the perception is that they are being left behind, and perception influences action.

So, if you’re an Asian male or a black female involved in an interracial relationship, do you feel that you’ve in any way been influenced by these perceptions? Also, I would really find it interesting to hear from Asian men involved with black women or vice versa. I’m not proposing this as a solution to everyone’s dating woes, but, as I read the kinds of comments I described above, I couldn’t help but to wonder about this possibility.

Lastly, I’m wondering if Asian men and black women feel that they garner more surprise when they date interracially than their female and male counterparts do? In other words, are people more startled by the sight of an Asian man and a white woman together than they are by the sight of an Asian woman and a white man? The same goes for black women with white men, compared to black men and white women.

(Photo Credit: Akira’s Hip-Hop Shop)

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[…] while moderating the Interracial Dating with a Vengeance thread, I was doing my best to save the kittens* when someone brought up Esther […]

Comments

Cynthia wrote:

I think it’s the whole, “black women don’t support black men, they give them a hard time, etc.”.

I know my father told me that he only wanted me to date a black american that I better not bring a white boy home.

I, of course didn’t listen to him and dated whomever I wanted. He actually even made a HUGE fuss when I dated an African for awhile.

I think they [black men] see it as a betrayal to their race but they have no problem using excuses to go outside their race box. That, black women don’t want to support and help raise up a “brotha” they want an already self made man or all black women are after the money, are chaste or too easy, blah, blah. There is always a reason for them to think to date outside of their race BUT, when a woman is fed up and finds happiness elsewhere then they want to be up in arms. It’s hypocrisy, my father included.

In his second marriage, he married a mixed woman (she’s half Korean, half white). Thanks for leading by example, daddy!

I personally never had an issue dating whomever I was at the time. I like who I like and I don’t make any excuses for that because I’m the one sleeping next to them every night…not my parents, my friends, strangers (or at least…I HOPE not!)…

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:47 am ¶
outcrazyophelia wrote:

I’m a black woman in a long term relationship with a white man. I’ve got to say I’ve never been asked why I’m not dating a black guy, but generally people are surprised that I’m not. They react as if its really strange that we have anything in common/would want to be involved with each other for the long haul. I don’t feel I’ve been influenced by the stereotypes–in fact I got to know my boyfriend before I even knew what race he was, but I think when people know about him, they treat me as if I’m “too good” to date a black guy. I feel like while it usually goes unspoken, people expect us to justify the relationship.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:54 am ¶
Faith wrote:

Hi everyone,

I’m a black woman in an interracial relationship. Sometimes I’ve wondered if my relationship was kinda a middle finger to black men, especially ones who date women of other races. I wrote about it on my blog awhile back actually. I have to admit that in the past I definitely felt resentment to black men who dated white women or even women of other races b/c it did feel like rejection. The stats about black women and marriage as well as reports like recent one on NBC News about the marriage crunch for black women didn’t exactly help matters. Now, I realize that was hypocritical and stupid especially considering my own interracial marriage and the men who I considered in the past. Still, there are times when I see a black man with a non-Black woman and I stare for a nano-second before telling myself “Faith, stop it!” I’m working on it.

My husband and I do get stares a lot. I don’t know if it’s more than a black man with a white woman though.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:17 am ¶
mariamaria3 wrote:

I am a black woman in a relationship with an asian man. We’ve been talking about this phenomenon for years and its great to see it getting some more publicity. I love my boyfriend, and am not dating him out of spite. But if I’m honest with myself, I know that the decision to start dating outside of my race was based on large part that as a highly educated and successful black woman, my black male counterparts (in terms of education and socio economic status) really weren’t interested. I’m not trying to blame all black men, but that is what I experienced time and and time again.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:20 am ¶
mariamaria3 wrote:

And YES, we get stared at all the time. Way more than any other interracial couple (of any kind) I’ve ever seen. Frankly, I’ve never even met another couple like us until I saw the photo accompanying this post.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:22 am ¶
Rachel wrote:

Hello,

To speak up a bit for the younger college generation, I don’t think interracial dating really matters so much. I’ve only been involved in interracial relationships and nobody’s given me any grief about it. No one has ever presumed that, just because there’s another black guy at a party, that I should go talk to him. I think it does relate to whatever environment/social circles in which you interact. You go for what’s available.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:30 am ¶
Alikat wrote:

I am a black woman in a relationship with a white man. We have gotten some looks that tell me that people are surprised to see us together. The looks may also be because of the 30-year age difference, and because I wear dreadlocks, while my beau looks very conventional. Like outcrazyophelia wrote in her post, people wonder what we have in common. Mad love, that’s what! And we get along famously.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:34 am ¶
lunanoire wrote:

To the first question: HELL YES!

California (where I grew up) is a great mixing bowl– for other people.

I am a single Af-Am female who has dated people of other ethnicities. As much as I would like a husband from a similar background in order to raise an upstanding Af-Am identifed young man, I do feel that it’s time to give up the dream in order to avoid ending up alone.

It’s easy for others to dismiss the pain of those who feel unwanted b/c of their race/gender if you have not gone through it yourself. There is a world of difference between discussing “when” in reference instead of “if.”

If you’re in an environment where few people are interested in someone of your race/gender, it’s a blow to the psyche. Everybody needs love.

If you think this issue has been blown out of proportion, you are likely to not be on the bottom of the race/gender totem pole, and you can view dating/marriage/etc. as something that is a likely possiblity in your future, depending on the state for queer couples.

In the Af-Am commnity, there are “plenty” of single men, but the number disparity still exists b/c of jail/prision/early death. Many men who do have a job and/or education know that they are highly desired by women from many ethnicities, so they don’t have to commit to any woman if they don’t want to. If he does, he can pick a better-looking woman than he would otherwise if the gender disparity did not exist.

Someone in a much earlier thread metioned that many black girls in mixed environments have friends but few dates. For some, this pattern continues into adulthood.

For adults, how does personal responsibility play a role? Should a person keep trying or resign to a life of singledom? It can be wearying to go on tons of fruitless first dates.

At a fashion show I heard a HOT As-Am male model ask an As-Am female model if she dates Asian guys. I thought it was sad b/c he’s a model! Tall, good-looking, and still getting shot down by women b/c of his ethnicity.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:44 am ¶
A wrote:

I am also a black female in a relationship with an asian male and I have to agree with mariamaria3: I don’t see any couples that look like me. I guess that explains the staring.
The perceptions of black males are out there, but they didn’t influence my decision. I know several black men who support black women. I met a guy who has all of the qualities I am seeking in a person, he just happens to be asian.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:45 am ¶
Eva wrote:

Today it’s so hard to find a partner that you can share things with, that you can trust. If the person is of a different race than you, so what? Why do people want to analyze everything? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:45 am ¶
lunanoire wrote:

*What I mean to say is that there is a difference btw making a choice based on abundance, rather than lack.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:46 am ¶
J wrote:

I am also a black woman dating a white man. As the other women here have said, I didn’t choose to date interracially out of spite, but I certainly do have this sense that there are less “eligible” black men out there.

What Rachel says is true too. The men I date tend to come from the social circles in which I interact. Most of the men happen to be white and so I end up mostly dating white men.

And people most definitely stare. For me, the main culprits tend to be black men and elderly white people. I wouldn’t say that the staring is really hostile (though a few times from black men it has been)- but it is certainly more than a double glance, and long enough to be considered rude.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:56 am ¶
B wrote:

I’m a black woman married to a white man. I don’t think that I was at all influenced by those negative perceptions of black men. Rather, I wasn’t around as many black men, and it was as simple as that. (My husband and I met in a college class together that was in my major and his minor field. While the university was fairly diverse, my major was pretty lily-white, with only a few other black folk.) In general, we find that people are more surprised at our pairing than one of a white woman and black man, but that we haven’t met nearly as much resentment and anger as the latter pairing. Usually, people just don’t believe we’re together, or try to figure out who we possibly could have ended up together. (I tend to think the “where did you meet” line of inquiry is a little suspect when people ask it after they know our occupations and hear us speak; we’re both humanities grad students with distinctly Northeastern accents. I notice that people aren’t as compelled to ask, say, same-race couples where one is an engineer with a southern accent and the other is a ballet dancer with an old-money New England accent where *they* met.)

Incidentally, I did date a Chinese-American man in college who had a Chinese-American friend who was also dating a black woman. One night when the 4 of us were hanging out (this might have been when we were still friends/before we dated?), one of the guys joked that it was an ideal situation for all the Asian men and black women that get left out of interracial dating, so it does seem to be an issue that occurs to people, even if it doesn’t seriously factor into who they end up with.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:59 am ¶
Treacle wrote:

Egads! There is certainly a lot of talk of interracial relationships going on.

The perception that I was being left behind did not influence my decision to date a white man. The fact that he asked me out did.

I wonder if more tangible variables (you can’t really measure percpetions, after all) like environment, education, and region have an effect on rates of interracial dating and also on responses to interracial dating.

Re: the first part…For example, I’m a black woman living in the south in a college town with a post-graduate degree. Those last two factors, especially, make it more likely my social network is going to be composed of white people. Since most people find their relationships through their social network, it also becomes more likely that the person I date will be white.

As for the second part, I believe living in the southeast is what gets us stared at. Interestingly, I’ve noticed different responses from black women than from black men. Black women cheer us on as we’re walking down the street, talking about how cute we look or how nice it is to see us dating. Black men, give us hard up and down stares, grimace, and walk by without saying a word.

Just my .02…

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:01 am ¶
Gori Girl wrote:

My husband is South Asian (Indian), and I’m a white American. I don’t think we get any more stares than any other interracial couple (I’ve dated a lot of different skin tones), but that might be because, in the US, South Asians and East Asians have different sort of stereotypes associated with them.

I agree that interracial dating doesn’t matter much to the Millennial Generation (of which I just barely belong to), but it still matters to a lot of older folk. But interCULTURAL dating will always have its issue - between partners, with families, etc. There’s a lot of cultural confusion & miscues to get through (I blog a bit about this).

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:13 am ¶
Ron wrote:

I’m an American Born Chinese (ABC) and all 6 of my male cousins are dating or engaged to non-Asian women for the “wrong” reasons. There’s no doubt in my mind that they [cousins] love their non-Asian counterparts but what brought them together in the first place was certainly based on race alone.

As I get older (late 20s), I meet more and more Asian men with the same mentality.

It’s not surprising. It follows the ancient Chinese philosphy of Yin and Yang where harmony only exists when there is balance. There are real world applications to this; when the gap between rich and poor grow larger, the chances of a revolt will increase. As the gap closes, the chances of revolt will decrease.

To be honest, I give Asian men in North America a considerable amount of credit. If it was happening to men of any other race, cities would be in ruins.

Right now, I think that the gap, for Asian Americans, is massive and as time progresses, the community is going to find a large internal conflict that has been festering for years.

PS: I find it ironic that black men complain about black women who date out considering the ratio is almost 10:1.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:18 am ¶
B wrote:

Rachel,
I think that your point is heartening–that this stuff isn’t as big a deal for younger people. I also agree with you–I think people in my parent’s generation got way more flack than interracial couples do now.

That said, I’d push you to think how common those interracial relationships are once you’re out of college, and once folks start getting married and/or taking other steps establishing life-long commitments. I personally dated a few non-black guys that were down with me at school, but weren’t going to take me home to meet their mothers. In both the case of me (black woman) and my husband (white guy), a bunch of our friends of varying races *dated* interracially at one time or another, but none of them have domestic partners or fiances or spouses or live-ins that are of a different race.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:27 am ¶
Ali wrote:

Well I’m not in a interracial relationship and technically I don’t even really date (this is not necessarily by choice) but this subject is near and dear to my heart so I’d like to offer my two cents. Man, this is an emotional topic, so hopefully I don’t get too rambly.

lunanoire, I co-sign your post inside and out! Especially, “If you’re in an environment where few people are interested in someone of your race/gender, it’s a blow to the psyche. Everybody needs love.”

SO TRUE. I’m still dealing with a lot of self perception crap that resulted from growing up in a nearly all white suburb. To this day both of my brothers date white women (pretty much exclusively), at first it used to piss me off but when I really thought about it I realized they don’t deserve to be with any woman they couldn’t fully appreciate be she black or otherwise.

I strongly disagree that there are plenty of black men around for black women to date. Now, if this is some how true and I am mistaken would someone please kindly point me in the direction of the black man buffet? Even as a preteen I could tell that the black women in my area had to try SO much harder to impress black men. Beautiful black women were passed over (and in some cases flat our ignored) for Latinas and white girls regularly.

It still feels like I have to work harder to impress a guy that supposedly shares my background and I’m getting really sick of jumping through hoops. For what? If I wouldn’t let any other man treat me this way, why am I playing myself just to be with a black guy? Am I trying to make my parents, grandparents and there friends happy? So they don’t feel the need to explain my relationship to themselves and others? FUCK THAT!

I do feel that there is a strain on black women (especially middle class black women) who want to date or marry black men exclusively so there’s not really an option to rule other ethnicities out. I think Lauren over at Stereohyped approached this issue in a very thoughtful manner. She posed the simple question, why would you punish yourself by endlessly worrying about someone who is not interested in you? It’s self defeating to hound someone who clearly does not want you. I understand feeling rejected by the one who is supposed to understand you and the dashed hopes of achieving your “picture perfect” family but maybe it’s time to expand our definition of what a perfect family or relationship looks like. For me, part of reconstructing this image has been a long and arduous process of breaking myself of the habit of projecting my personal issues and feelings onto random couples. Every black man I see with a non-black woman is not a personal rejection of me. Hell, usually I don’t even know the guy! Sure some men have issues ( a la my two brothers whom I love very much), but those issues have nothing to do with me. I’m not open to dating someone from a different race or ethnic background out of spite. I think I’m more motivated by self-love and the desire to be happy than anything else.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:31 am ¶
Steve W wrote:

I’m a black man that generally dates white women. That’s not because I have anything against black women either. I like sistas just fine. It’s simply that a) most of the women I come in contact with are white and the women I date are a subset of that group and b) I find that black women who enjoy the type of activities I do often date white men so they aren’t attracted to me.

Lastly, don’t assume that everyone who stares at interracial couples disapproves of what they see. I stare at them ALL THE TIME. It reinforces my faith in humanity…and I often wonder what brought them together.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:34 am ¶
johnjihoonchang wrote:

I’m an Asian male, but with very limited relationship experience, so I can only really write of my perceptions.

Personally, I don’t imagine that I’d find myself in an interracial relationship for any real different reasons than my female counterparts. Except for the “I’m just only attracted to white guys, I can’t help it” reason that I’ve been given more than a few times. I don’t find myself any more attracted to women of any specific race, so odds are that race specifically won’t play as much of a factor in whom I consciously choose to date. At least for personal reasons.

That said, it probably would be involved, because of how my social circle is strongly influenced my socio-economic class and there is some disparity in racial representation across socio-economic classes. Furthermore, my parents (father especially) would be extremely disapproving of my dating any woman but a woman of Corean descent, so I imagine it would make me more hesitant to enter a relationship with anyone that isn’t Corean–not that I wouldn’t, but I would definitely ponder it more.

But in general, I’d probably enter an interracial relationship for the same reason that most of my female counterparts do. You sometimes can’t help but let your heart lead.

I don’t think that there’s a lack of eligible women to date, so I don’t necessarily feel like I’d date interracially because of a lack of options, although I do note that there is a lack of Asian women in my most active social circles.

In terms of other Asian males, I actually am surprised myself when I meet an Asian male in a relationship with a non-Asian female and it’s purely because I just don’t see it very often. But, being an Asian male myself, I don’t find it strange internally, it’s just not a common sight. The vast majority (technically all at present) of my Asian male friends are not in interracial relationships.

I don’t find it strange to see Asian females with white males though. A numerable minority of my Asian female friends are in interracial relationships and many have married or are engaged to be married to their significant others.

I think a part of me has probably been subconsciously influenced by seeing the disparity in interracial relationships with Asian males and Asian females and I do probably feel somewhere inside that Asian men, like myself, are less desireable to women of all races than males of other races. Or at least popularly so. My rational mind however, won’t accept that, because I think I’m pretty damn attractive. =P

Posted 20 May 2008 at 11:35 am ¶
kd wrote:

I’ve gotten that from black women before… that “Aha I’m dating a white man” attitude. But I think it raises a question. Are they dating interacially,-a white man for example- and just being overly smug about it, or are they dating simply to spite the people they feel “have done them” wrong in their own race? As I commented in a previous post I’ve found that it is often a combination of the two.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 12:06 pm ¶
Phred wrote:

This is something I’ve thought about for most of my adult life. I have dated women of many different ethnicities. I am currently married to a woman who is Irish-American. I am Asian-American (As-Am).

So where does “preference” all start? I grew up in a predominately White town with all of my friends being White. I continue to live/work in a world that is White. Now does that make me a self-hating Asian? I don’t think I am.

But it does bring up for me the idea of what it means to be Asian-American. Ever since college I have been struggling with the issue of what it meant to be As-Am. I don’t speak Chinese very well or am very up to date on Chinese cultural customs. Does this make me “less Asian” than a White guy who can speak fluent Chinese and who lived in China for 10 years?

So I guess what I’m saying is our “preference” is definitely influenced by our upbringing. Tempered by the fact that we have plenty of agency in our adult life to change things if we are aware of it.

I think for my wife and I, we get stared at more because she is 14 years older than me. She is actually happy that we are mixed race as no one assumes she is my mother (well except for the one time at the dentist).

Posted 20 May 2008 at 12:27 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:

my grandpa was an Asian American who married a white woman. Their hapa son, my dad, dated my mom who’s also white, and also got married to another white woman and then a Latina. Interracial relationships, in any shape of form, have never seemed like a big deal to me, and I think that’s partially because of a lot of my generation’s attitudes on them and also because of my family. I’ve never noticed anybody giving my dad weird looks for not being with Asian women. I don’t think his reasons for dating outside (half) his race have much to do with anything besides just love, and that’s the way I feel too. If you love someone, race doesn’t have to be a primary issue.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 12:29 pm ¶
lunanoire wrote:

Ali,

thank you. Also, there is less of a problem for beautiful black women who also appear mixed.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:09 pm ¶
kjen wrote:

“on the bottom of the race/gender totem pole”,

I knew as a child that I would be open to interracial dating, but I sometimes wondered have I remained such a staunch supporter of the practice because I was afraid I could never find a man of my own race whom I wanted that wanted me. I figured it was best to cast as wide a net as possible.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:13 pm ¶
london wrote:

interracial relationships are the norm over here in london…
my generation - i am 42 and a first gen black briton - have grown up with mixed race kids and known their parents…
it could be that most kids here in london now are mixed.. they are mainly all shades of brown..
i don’t even notice..
couples are couples and kids are kids.. it’s not a perceptible issue…

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:24 pm ¶
TierList E wrote:

. . . I think I see where kjen is coming from-

Like if I mess around and got too narrow in my selection I’ll end up by myself, so limiting myself to one race just never felt like a smart option.

And the thought of ‘hunting out a race’, even if it’s your own, doesn’t rub right with me.

But I’m a newb in this area- I’ve yet to gain an appropriate attraction from anybody of any race. They guys I’ve like though were those I’ve known in my social circle, which is mostly white with diversity sprinkles.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:26 pm ¶
Ali wrote:

@lunanoire - I agree it’s different for black women who “look” mixed. My cousin is half Korean and whenever we hit the down I definitely notice a difference in the way we are treated (namely by black men at certain clubs). It’s very interesting. I wouldn’t necessarily say she has less of a problem though. That is to say, I don’t consider being relentlessly pursued by jerks who are obviously interested in you for a very superficial reason unproblematic.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:33 pm ¶
heyhey wrote:

“At a fashion show I heard a HOT As-Am male model ask an As-Am female model if she dates Asian guys.”

THAT is troubling. Also, the trend in marketing for biracial couples of the female asian/male white man variety. I am sorry if this has been addressed earlier, but I recall recently on tv three commercials in a row with this pairing… mostly for home improvment and high end cars… and just wondering why the asian brother gets no love.

Also, maybe this is just the circle I roll with now (which is quite different from my VERY whitebread high school days), but I find the as-am male friends can easily express mad love for af-am and latinas as much as their own, which I think might have something to do with their equal love for hiphop since way back. That pop culture influenced their wider perspective. Also, I hate to admit it, but speaking for my own filipina upbringing, there’s still a “white is right” post-colonial mentality that our parents have that we may have actively fought against.

And for some guys, that fight manifests itself in MAD side-eye to certain women who date white men exclusively. When people see the aforementioned biracial couples on tv and assume “it’s just more acceptable to asians”, statistically that might seem true, but don’t be fooled, there’s still a segment of young asian men that are still fighting the “little chinaman” stereotype, and have some (perhaps misdirected) hate on white man/asian women “sell-out epidemic” (their words, not mine.)

Sorry if that went a little off-topic.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:34 pm ¶
Ron wrote:

Not sure how my other comment got swallowed but I think one important aspect to note that since Asian men are so emasculated in North American society, Asian women are actually reinforcing this fact with their dating and marriage habits.

After all, if white men weren’t the best and Asian men weren’t so poor, they’d be with Asian men, right?

It’s almost as if Asian women are being used as a weapon to attack Asian men. What makes it worse is that Asian women poo-poo this concern because they’re too busy thinking about how it would affect their dating pool. Add on the fact that Asian women, by and large, are much more likely to trash their own men than any other ethic minority woman.

This just drives up the animosity towards Asian women. I’m not surprised and it shocks me that so many people, including the ones that visit this site, have no idea why this is happening. I think many Asian men are taking it to the next level when it comes to animosity and distrust of Asian women, there have been some friendly conversation among Asian guys that no longer trust Asian women because they feel that when Asian women want to get married and please “mommy and daddy,” then they’ll look for an Asian guy. It’s as if they’re being used and were never really wanted in the first place. Almost like a last resort since Asian men aren’t leaving in droves.

Like someone said, if Asian men are all excited that an Asian woman dates Asian men, you’ve got problems. Asian women just don’t care because it doesn’t affect them. You can’t blame Asian men for not caring about sexism since it doesn’t affect them.

It’s common sense. When there is no balance when it comes to interracial dating in Asian America and as the gap between two parties grows, so does conflict. During the course of history, as gap between the rich and poor grows, you run a higher risk of revolution.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:41 pm ¶
Ali wrote:

*hit the town* NOT down

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:44 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:

Maybe it’s just the type of houshold I was raised in, but I hate the assumption that you have to be dating IR for any reason other than jiving with a particular person. My family has always been open-minded about the guys I’ve partnered up with over the years because they are more concerned about who makes me happy as opposed to who “society” thinks I should be with. I do wish that people opposed to IR dating would quit trying to shove their own issues on innocent people, especially since that person you’re giving the evil eye to more than likely wouldn’t be a good match for you anyway! Muttering things under your breath, giving people hostile looks and (in worse case scenarios) hurling abuse makes you look stupid; it’s not like that couple is going to look at each other and say “Wow. We should break up since this random person WE DON’T EVEN KNOW doesn’t approve!”

What I REALLY don’t like is people who assume that th major reason you’re with someone is because you’re getting some sort of bonus by being with that person. Granted, there are the individuals who date IR as some sort of agenda, and you can smell them a mile away. I give them a wide berth.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:01 pm ¶
Shauna wrote:

“Lastly, don’t assume that everyone who stares at interracial couples disapproves of what they see. I stare at them ALL THE TIME. It reinforces my faith in humanity…and I often wonder what brought them together.”

I totally agree, especially if it is a pairing that I don’t usually see. However I specifically make sure that I don’t stare, it makes people feel uncomfortable, like they’re an attraction in a zoo.

I also agree that couples that are from 2 different cultures rather than 2 different races have more problems in their relationships. I knew a white male who dated a south asian female for a long time and they ended up breaking up because her family disapproved since he wasn’t of the same religion.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:03 pm ¶
Karl wrote:

Ah…interesting topic, but it is based on a false premise, namely that there are even a fraction of the a) bm/wf relationships in the real world as there are on television and b) that there is even a fraction of the bm/wf relationships in the real world as there are bw/wm relationships. Note the key term here is relationships (sexual variety etc obviously). As for dating and sex (paid for or otherwise-given historical basis) there is no such thing as a parity between WOC/white male pairings and the reverse….the former has historically, presently and given the comments on this board (lol), will continue to be the dominant pairings.

“I’ve gotten that from black women before… that “Aha I’m dating a white man” attitude. But I think it raises a question. Are they dating interacially,-a white man for example- and just being overly smug about it, or are they dating simply to spite the people they feel “have done them” wrong in their own race? As I commented in a previous post I’ve found that it is often a combination of the two.” - I cosign that statement. In any case, it’s always been so in this country and around the world (bw/wm), but I can’t figure why its so, well, disturbing to come across it….not the pairing per se, but the lame justifications that come along with it- as no explanation of said behavior ever ends at “I love him” but always has a “bm are criminal, dating white women, etc” component.

I will now roll around union sq/and park slope (interracial dating ground zero) attempting to suppress the feeling that I’m the last Serb in Croatia, and see if I can spy a BW/WM pairing that hangs out with a BM/WW pairing. THe paucity of these associations leads me to believe there is something more than just being smitten by another race, but actually having issue’s with one’s own grouping involved

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:15 pm ¶
YamYam wrote:

Why even give a second thought to seeing an inter racial couple the street, ethnic or racial? It is one thing to think about this behavior and another to think about the idea of inter racial marriage as it relates to conservative traditions and social tribalism; yet somehow thoughts about either will revolve around one premise - the concept of minorities and majorities - and everything it entails.

Is the presence of the “good” stares just as well as the hateful stares interracial couples weather pointing to the affirmation of racial or ethnic solidarity demonstrated in the advantages of feeling like a “majority” and the strangeness of defining anything else close to it as a “minority?” Is staring the tip of the iceberg or its true weight below? I think it assuages tribalistic social behavior and not even in those who participate, but those around them - and even moreso in the children that come from inter racial relationships. Curiosity is all that it is on a personal level, and that’s natural.

On a higher level, it seems almost evolutionary, a diffusion of contrast.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:18 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

I don’t want to be mean to all the people involved in IR relationships particularly on this topic but WHO GIVES A DAMN !!!! The Civil Rights and Women’s movement was supposed to bring about these type of changes. 75% percent of African- American Women are in college in 2008 compared to the 60’s and many of these women are not just getting degrees in teaching and nursing but in a variety of fields and endeavors.

It may sound sexist and even racist for me to say this, but White Men and Men of other races are just more comfortable dealing with African- American Women as opposed to African- American Men. So in theory if you are in a social circle where you socialize, do buisness and generally and particpate generally attend in a potential large circle well of course the chances of meeting Black Men are slim so the chances of developing romance with men of other races increases thereby marriages.

Asian- American Men are fast becoming attractive to women of all races because they are economically stable, college educated and are becoming more social and more Americanized since Asian- American Women are marrying IR at higher levels. It shouldn’t be that big of a surprise, Black Women dating asian men two supposedly unwanted people would get together and form relationships or eventually marriages.

B and Rachel, I don’t buy the “lack of eligible Black Men in 2008 no more than I did in the 80’s when professional and stable working- class Black Men run that nonsense by me. In the 80’s I used to say there were no Black Rocker Boho types who would like Black Flag, Duran Duran, and Luther or Al Green so I dated White and Hispanic women for revenge for Black Women supposedly rejecting me. Then some astute Brothas told me you would get the same share of women of any race if you opened your eyes.

And in a way they were right, I have dated Professional, Working Class women of all races since 1987 and I am a working - class Black Male and I can hang in any social circle. I am tired of of hearing the same social pathologies reserved for black men by Black Women, White Men and the Media, This is what the Civil Rights movement was about, securing every opprounity for African- Americans to be able to enjoy the fruits of Ameican Life, economical, politcal and socially and that also means romance.

It just happens in the last 30 years, Black Women have taken the promise of those brave men and women who marched, were lynched, and violently killed for that right so nearly 50years we can talk about Black Women and Asian Men dating or marriage. But those kids will not be black males (they will be biracial) but they will live the father’s lifestyle and have his values which in many cases they will be culturally white, hispanic and asian that’s the way it is st8 no chaser.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:26 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To eric daniels:

“B and Rachel, I don’t buy the “lack of eligible Black Men in 2008 no more than I did in the 80’s when professional and stable working- class Black Men run that nonsense by me.”

You’re wrong. This is why we have things like census data.

According to the 2000 US Census, there are only 7 single black men for every 10 single black women and that does not count the 1 out of 15 black men who are incarcerated.

Therefore, there is a shortage of eligible black men.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:42 pm ¶
Ali wrote:

Thank you Treacle.

@Karl - Could you please provide some statistical evidence for your assertion that BF/WM couples out number WF/BM couples?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 2:59 pm ¶
Phil wrote:

As a Black male who is about to engaged to a Black female, I’m just going to speak from my standpoint as once-eligible man with an education and a job.

While I have been curious about other ethnicities in the past, I have always been surrounded by great examples of Black women. However, I did go through and can sympathize somewhat, with what some Black men say about today’s Black woman.

I know several single, Black mothers who are inching towards their mid-30s with NO prospects of a husband in sight. The most terrible part of that is, as far I know them personally, I look at them and know exactly WHY no man has married them. I cannot, as an educated man, generalize the mentalities of Black women, and it would not be fair to compare their lives to other kinds of women, but its hard not to look at the positions these women are in and criticize their views of men. Unrealistic, apathetic, sometime even neurotic views of Black men seemed to permeate their lives like a toxin. I really felt sorry for them, and still do. They won’t listen to me, as a big bro, when I tell them to give a man a chance–and I mean any KIND of man–but they just shut down and the revolving door of men keeps spinning.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:05 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

Treacle, There are 18 million Black Men Living in the U.S.A. 450,000 are in jail the other 500,000 are on probation or legal supervision. Most Black Men are not in jail, on the DL or mentally screwed up. Many Black Men are plumbers, construction workers, barbers, salespeople, small buisnesman or working 2-3 jobs like many other Americans. I would venture to say that the number of Americans holding advanced degrees is about 15-25 % percent of Americans.

Stop watching “Something New” and “Waiting to Inhale” or any Black Feminist track, most black men don’t call black women “bitches and hos” nor are they down at the gay bar picking up a ‘gay thug’ or a ‘drag queen’ nor are we gangbanging and killing each other for property we don’t own, and many of those stats you site generally only count Black Men who either have…

Advanced Degrees
Make a certain amount of money
Own a home, or have assets

Do you know the census and other agencies starts counting the number of children out of “wedlock ” at 14 years old. they don’t count cohabitation of adults , common- law marriages in many states or if the parents have an agreement to pay child support it still counts as a “bastard child” so Treacle stats can be twisted to prove or disprove a point.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:07 pm ¶
Resee wrote:

Why didn’t the author mention an asian man and a black woman? What’s wrong with that?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:13 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Eric -

Black feminists are not anti-men. Have you read anything I’ve posted on hip-hop feminism?

“Something New” does not bash black men. As a matter of fact, I think the movie showed a good representation of the internal turmoil one goes through when dating interracially when you expected to keep it within the race.

I hope you were making a joke with the Waiting to Inhale thing - I was a bit too young for that movie, so I cannot speak on that one.

And I notice you don’t critique movies like Baby Boy, that show ridiculously flawed representations of black relationships. Why not? Is it because movies like that are from a male perspective?

There are also many movies like The Wood and Brown Sugar that show the positive development of black relationships. (Colorism aside y’all.)

Also Eric, I publish your comments because the perspective you hold is much more common than the perspective often espoused here. But I am going to need you to critically consider your comments before you continue posting. I am not interested in rehashing the same ol’ “black women need to/black men need to” dynamic in these discussions. If you want to challenge ideas, fine. Just be mindful that we want to move this type of conversation forward.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:16 pm ¶
Resee wrote:

And another thing: Why is race ALWAYS an issue? I date the men I like and enjoy being with, therefore, I don’t care how many “eligible” black men, white men or whatever is out there - I date people because of a mutual interest, not because he passed the color test or because there’s a shortage of black men - why limit yourself when there’s so much beauty in the human race to choose from??? It’s just downright dumb.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:17 pm ¶
Nadra wrote:

Eric, I know it wasn’t meant to be funny, but your line about black men not being “down at the gay bar picking up a ‘gay thug’” made me laugh out loud. The whole “gay thug” phenomenon tickles me pink (no pun intended). And the DL thing is so ridiculous, as if black men are the only ones on the DL. I never understood that.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:19 pm ¶
Nadra wrote:

Reese, I did mention an Asian man and a black woman.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:20 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Resee -

What is this website called? Racialicious.

What was this website before? Mixed Media Watch, which tracked representations of mixed people and interracial relationships in the media.

If we were living in a post-racial utopia, this site and its previous form would have never been necessary.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:21 pm ¶
Solo wrote:

I have commented on this topic before. As a well educated black woman I must admit that it is hard to find black men that are on your level. I was fortunate. Now as a black woman I do feel abandoned by many black men. We know that you fall in love w/ a person not a color, however I think that far too often we see black men migrate to women of other races for the wrong reasons. Just as many in the Asian community believe that Asian women date white men for the prestige/status I believe the same thing for many black men.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:29 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To eric daniels:

If stats can be twisted to prove or disprove a point, then one wonders why you’re even using them.

In your first post, you say 75% of African American have college . Brushing aside the fact that you just made up an imaginary number in an attempt to prove a nonexistent point, 75% is a statistic.

In your response to a comment of mine, you say 15-25% of Americans hold advanced degrees. Once again, one wonders where you’re getting this information (I suspect that, as before, you simply pulled a number out of thin air) but 15-25% is also a statistic.

In other words, if statistics are so wrong, then don’t use them to support your argument. And please don’t insult my intelligence by making up numbers and expecting me to believe them when the data says otherwise.

Finally, if you’re going to attempt to debate, it helps if you stay on topic. My initial response was to your fallacious claim that there is no shortage of black men. When I responded with hard evidence that, in fact, there is a shortage of black men you interpreted that as invitation to attack my movie-watching preferences which, let’s be blunt, you simply don’t know. Nor did I make any references to thug culture or whether or not there are black men employed in legitimate professions like plumbing, construction work, and sales.

In sum, the words “red herring” come to mind after reading your response. You’re talking, but not really making a point nor addressing any of the points other people have made.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:33 pm ¶
Solo wrote:

As I read some of the post I really wanted to add this. Not to turn this convo into a black male/female issue but I truly believe that sometimes the two just do not understand each other. Historically speaking black women had to take care of the home and everything else while many black men were socially, economically, and mentally castrated. this strength that black women had to hold on to is still there today. Also one can argue that some black men arbor some resentment towards black women for this. Add this to the fact that many of us did not grow up in a traditional (dad/mom) home and I really think that we simply do not know what it takes to be in a sucessful relationship. Just some food for thought

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:35 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

To Latoya Peterson:

You know, after thinking “red herring” in response to eric daniels’ comments, the very next thing I thought was “male privilege.”

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:38 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Also, see old post about What Black Men Think, it does an indepth debunking of the more black men in jail than in college myth, with a detailed mythology and a breakout of the difference between jail and prison.

http://www.racialicious.com/2007/09/12/movie-review-what-black-men-think/

@ ALL - Also, please note that the term “available black men” and “eligible black men” are relative.

For example, I could say that I personally have never had problems finding black men to date. However, that perspective is informed by (1) my age, at 24, (2) the city I live in, which has a sizeable black population in the city and the suburbs, (3) the work environment in my city which means a sizeable number of people who do not complete college still have access to decent jobs (4) the fact that I have not completed college and do not require that in men that I date and (5) the fact that neither of my parents has completed college - all though my father has completed his apprenticeship program - but have a strong entrepreneurial drive so I am more apt to look for that in a mate, as opposed to an education.

Our personal perspectives inform “truth.” When engaging in this conversation, please remember that.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:42 pm ¶
Treacle wrote:

For clarification purposes, I was using “eligible black men” the same way the census uses it, as interchangeable with “single black men.”

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:53 pm ¶
B wrote:

eric daniels (#36),

I never said anything at all to the effect of their not being any good black men around. Don’t lump me into the “jail/married/dead/only-date-white-women” cryers (not saying that you’re one, Rachel–I’m just trying to clarify for e.d.). I said that in *my* classes in *my* major, there weren’t many black folk–of either gender. Once I declared my major, I was pretty intense w/studying, so I didn’t meet that many people who weren’t in my classes. I didn’t seek my husband out out of some sort of disgruntlement with black men.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:58 pm ¶
Jas wrote:

Interesting topic. I’m a black male who’s never actually been with a black woman before. All my partners have been White or Asian women. Not that I’ve been opposed to dating Black women but my social circle is for the most part very white and I tend to be interested in people in my circles. The only other blacks in that circle tend to be guys so that’s not really going to do much for me relationship wise.

I can definitely recognize (I could say understand but I guess deep down I really don’t) the anger and frustration of Black women and Asian men but I think IR dating out of spite not only doesn’t help address the issue but I think it’s a bit unhealthy to base a relationship on a petty emotion like that.

Yes there are many black males in prison and yes not all black males have advanced degrees. I live in Chicago which has the second highest black population in the country and I know more than enough single black guys. Many of whom can’t get black women to pay them the time of day because they don’t wear designer clothes or fulfill other superficial requirements some women have. This includes women who are single, have kids, obviously in bad health, or a combination of the three which isn’t uncommon.

I’ve had black women reject me because I “don’t talk black”, “don’t have a swagger”, “talk too smart (this was after telling some black women I was talking to that if I won the lottery I’d probably try to invest a quarter of my winnings)” and other things. I’ve also seen black women reject black men because they weren’t on the same level economically or educationally.

I’ve also seen plenty of black men who wouldn’t give black women the time of day no matter what she was like with plenty of their own superficial and stereotypical reasons.

And I know this isn’t always the case but I’ve talked to a lot of women who don’t seem to see the difference between there not being enough black men and there not being enough black men who meet their standards. I know Latoya said she didn’t want to turn this into another tit for tat, black vs black thread so I’ll try to abide by that because I find it just as pointless as she does.

But I do think it’s important to understand and discuss the specific reasons behind these attitudes even if they are stereotypical/ignorant but that’s obviously for another thread.

I think things would be much better off if people weren’t focused so much on who people they don’t even know are dating inter racially and started focusing on themselves and what they want and actively pursing it. If that means dating IR then do what you want. I’ve gotten dirty stares, comments, accusations from White men, Black women, Asian men, etc and generally just ignore it. They don’t know me and I don’t know them. And you can’t please the world.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:17 pm ¶
Resee wrote:

LaToya Peterson -

And your comment means??? I really don’t get what the point of your comment to me was “If we were living in a post-racial utopia, this site and its previous form would have never been necessary.” Excuse me for expressing my abhorrence of prejudice and racial divisions! I am CLEARLY aware of the state of our world and how focused we are on race, and it eats away at me. I don’t think it is inappropriate for me to point out the obvious - issues over interracial dating is just plain dumb. It has no foundation based in logic and it should be totally irrelevant. The sad fact of the matter is, however, it’s not. People still want to look down (or up, depending on the person’s self-view) on others who MAY simply be dating someone of another race because that person is a GOOD person. I ‘m just sick of all of it. So, I’m sorry if I come off stating something that sounds like it belongs in the fairy tales, but can you honestly tell me that the it makes sense that the world is not over the fact that there are different variations of pigmentation?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:24 pm ¶
Cara wrote:

Historically, white men have been “entitled” to “date, marry, or even rape (historically)” whom ever they chose. There’s not really a social stigma attached to their relationships. If he dates a sistah…fellahs are like “hummmm nice pull.” Same with a Latina or Asian woman (though I have heard bad stereotypes associated with the later wm/af relationship). But for the most part I think they are not stereotyped.

As for other interracial relationships, I have a few thoughts….

1. I find it very difficult to overlook the reception I get from brothers (blk men) who are involved in a relationship with a non-blk female. It’s like they anticipate a debate or conflict and they try to shield themselves by first blountly stating thier dating preference (as if I were pressed to know) or two making some kind of insult (as if they knew how I felt about interracial dating). … I’ve found several of these incounters awkward and hurtful. It really doesn’t bother me that black males “date/marry” outside of their race, as long as they do it for love - not self hatred of any other reason that draws focus away from (no to) supporting a healthy relationship. However it does bother me that they choose to marry or date others races b/c “HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH ME” (blk women in general) and/or “A PROBLEM WITH HIMSELF”. I can’t tolerate self hatred in any form. If you love a woman marry her - end of story. But don’t chose your mate out of opposition to the women of your own race or because you are ashamed of your race in some way (this goes for all men not just black men). I have come in contact with guys like that and its weird.

2. I don’t spend my time worrying about those who don’t find me attractive, I focus on those who do. And if a non-blk man finds me attractive, then that’s wonderful. DON’T HATE — DATE! You mentioned AMBW relationships, and I ahve dated a couple of Asian men. I’m most attracitve to those who are very culturally sound and who are proud of their heritage. That really matters to me, no matter who the man is. I don’t have a preference, I never have. I love men, in all of their variety :o).

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:27 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Resee -

As I said, you need to remember where you are. Saying thing like “oh, we should all be over this right now, this is so dumb” is (1) silencing and (2) counterproductive. On this site we have discussions about race and how it impacts different levels of society.

Discussing these matters moves us forward toward the goal, which is to challenge people’s perceptions of interracial dating. I suggest you go back and read the other discussions (click the tag that says interracial relationships) to see why we are discussing this in the first place. Generally speaking, discussions around the internet and in real life on interracial dating fall into the same basic binaries over and over again.

In order to move past that, we are dissecting the stereotypes involved and directly challenging each other on long held biases.

You pointing out what is obvious to many people on this board is not helping the conversation.

If you are sick of these types of conversations, they are labeled “interracial dating.” Do not participate.

But that argument “Why is race ALWAYS an issue?” like its companion arguments “we should be colorblind” and “I don’t see race” are much more harmful than helpful. They do not challenge people’s ideas, they participate in silencing the views of other people who have had race impact them negatively in these areas, and they add no value to the conversation.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:34 pm ¶
Resee wrote:

Latoya -

You TOTALLY misinterpreted my meaning for posting my previous comment. In NO WAY am I trying to silence the comments or this forum. Believe me, I’ve read mostly everyone’s comments, and I find many of them quite intriguing. It is not my intention to NOT discuss this at all - obviously, it’s still a problem.
My intention is to say what no one else is saying - how silly it is for us to have a forum like this anyway, not that the forum is silly. I may be somewhat of an idealist (and, I don’t know if this means anything, but I am a black female), but I am totally okay with my being an idealist and wanting us to get past all of this. I guess my theory is if I say it enough and enough people feel the way I do or change their views, we can actually start to see a significant difference in my lifetime.
I’m just sick of hearing that a black man was severly beaten by a some why guys for dating a white woman or having a black man call me a bitch for walking down the street with my white boyfriend.
In no way am I trying to hinder this dialogue. I’m just saying that I wish the world (whites, blacks, asians, mexicans, etc.) would GET OVER IT so forums like this will not be necessary.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:43 pm ¶
Lynne J wrote:

@Resee: I personally don’t think it just about variations of pigmentation. That is overly simplistic. That type of thinking oftentimes lines up with a color-blind ideology, but all I hear when people say that they don’t see race, or that race, or racial divisions should not longer be an issue is that you want to sweep history and hundreds of years of racial oppression, white supremacy and dominance under the rug as if that were even possible. My race is not just pigmentation it is a culture, it is a lifestyle and it is values. Ideally I would like to marry a man who shares those values as well as my cultural beliefs some of which are different from mainstream North American culture. I want children that look like me, that look like my parents and my grandparents. I don’t believe that is stupid. I actually think that is normal.

@Jas: Careful Jas…your self-hatred and misogyny towards black women is showing. First, you say you have never dated a black woman and that your social circle is very white. Also, that the black men you do socialize with are apart of this circle. Then later you claim to know so much about black women, who they date, who they reject (namely you because you are so smart and not a thug) and what their standards may, or may not be. How do you know so much about the dating habits of black women, if they are not part of your social circle, or life? Osmosis?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:53 pm ¶
Shannon wrote:

I am a black woman who’s dated intra and interracially and there are very few things that annoy me more than the assumption that I am dating someone out of spite. To me when someone says that to me especially someone who knows me, I feel like they must think I’m an ugly shallow person to be using another human being like that.

I’ve heard the same thing from people when I was dating a black woman and frankly at this point I don’t even give the question a response. If someone really thinks that’s why I am dating someone they aren’t worth my time or energy.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:54 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Resee -

In order for people to get over it, they have to understand WHY what they think about IR dating is wrong. And analyze why people hold contradictory opinions. And engage with those ideas, because more often than not a lot of the people holding those opinions think it’s just the truth. They don’t want anyone to judge them on dating interracially by still cast judgment on others. Or, they see nothing wrong with being pro-interracial dating…because after all, black men/asian men/latino men are so horrible and patriarchal that there’s no other option *but* to turn to white men. (Heard that argued.) And I have heard how Asian women/black women/latina women are just so difficult to deal with, white women are a welcome relief. (Heard that too.) And people who hold these beliefs are on interracial boards in full effect, talking about a better way of dating, when they really mean, just their way.

The same thing goes for all the women and men who believe interracial dating means POC/white - because people from different groups or ethnicities never date each other.

And Resee, I can understand you are just trying to put forth your viewpoint on the situation, but we encounter comments that read exactly the same way as your comment at #43 all day long, on all kinds of posts relating to interracial dating, interracial adoption and raising biracial children. I believe you when you say you didn’t mean it that way, but so many more people do. Please choose your words more carefully.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:54 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@Lynn - Your comment stands (and it was a good catch) but I will strongly caution you against the use of the words “self-hating” on this board. You were right to call Jas out, but using a loaded term like self hating tends to start fights and undermine discussions. Your comment is just as strong without that word.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 4:59 pm ¶
fejack wrote:

interethnic dating

Two persons from different ethnic background but with a similar social or academic background will probably have much more in common than two persons from the same ethnic background but with different social or academic baggage.

The lowest common denominator however is that dating will always involve a contrast between two family cultures: each person comes from a family with different habits, so there will ALWAYS be the need to reach out to accept and respect the culture and tradition of the other half.

Even the main ethnic groups tend to discriminate amongst themselves: not so long ago in the US, people like the Irish or the Italians were’nt exactly considered as whites, and it was not proper for an Anglo-Saxon to date -say- an Italian, or vice-versa. The comedy “My big fat greek wedding” portrays the same attitude stemming from Greeks towards other ethnies. To this day, in countries like Italy (where I have lived for 8 years), dating a person from Central Europe or Eastern Europe always raises suspicion, event though the skin complexion is the same.

I think character and qualities of the other half are valid enough reasons to commit to a relationship. There shouldn’t be any need for more justifications.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:08 pm ¶
bertie wrote:

—-Our personal perspectives inform “truth.” When engaging in this conversation, please remember that—–

Latoya–God bless you for this statement. I really wonder (from a black male perspective) how much class informs the “truth” of these gender wars. There are plenty of “working class” and even blue collar folks (guv’ment workers, teachers, small business owners, firemen, cops, military careerist, etc.) who despite having varying degrees of education may have similar economic lifestyles. Thus a non-college educated army staff seargent may be an “eligible” man for a college educated RN. I wonder do working class BWs feel the “shortage” as much as say women who have white collar jobs requiring an college/advanced degree and thus the same in their mates? Sorry for the off-topic-ness of this post.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:14 pm ¶
Kali wrote:

london wrote:

“interracial relationships are the norm over here in london…
my generation - i am 42 and a first gen black briton - have grown up with mixed race kids and known their parents…
it could be that most kids here in london now are mixed.. they are mainly all shades of brown..
i don’t even notice..
couples are couples and kids are kids.. .”

i am a south asian female married to a WM for decades and we have two smashing (young adult) children.

i love london’s outlook above.

i can affirm from my own experince that matings based on mutual admiration and enjoyment (romance?) and shared values (eg beliefs in humanism, social liberalism, in education, in closeness and sharing with family & friends in our case) are far more important to the fate of a relationship than such a tiny piece of the puzzle as skin pigmentation.

or perhaps skin pigmentation can be as big or small a piece of the puzzle as you let it be?

the world and its views are changing fast folks: you are going to have a predominantly khaki colored world - may as well embrace it!

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:16 pm ¶
Alikat wrote:

All of this discussion suddenly reminded me that in my freshman year of high school, I took an Asian American young man to the Sadie Hawkins dance. My motivation for asking him was simply that he had been nice and friendly to me, a new girl at school. I didn’t give any thought to the cultural differences. He had no hesitation about going to the dance with a black girl, and was a wonderful date. My best friend, also a black girl, asked my date’s brother to the dance, and he was very happy to attend with her as well. My friend was a student leader, very well known and well liked, cute and smart as hell, but the black boys at our school were not interested in dating her or me (I was no slouch myself). This was in the mid-1970s. Sometime later on along the way, I came to consider only black men for dating and relationships. I’ll have to spend some time reflecting on how and why that happened. Now I have come full circle and look at men as men. I am free to date whomever I want, and all good men have an equal opportunity to date me. I will no longer restrict myself.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:20 pm ¶
tybris wrote:

I think its important to emphasize the role popular media has played in the racial dating disparities, and probably the subsequent backlash against them by the people that are portrayed negatively.

Some one had brought this up in an earlier comment and I think its important to bring it up again. In movies, television shows and other forms of media, white males are often given free reign to date women of all races. It is not uncommon for white men to be seen with Asian women, hispanic women and African American women. In fact it is deemed “acceptable” by the general viewing public and minorites are not just expected to accept it but to embrace it. However minority male/white female pairings are a lot less common perhaps because the producers fear the “general” public wont approve and therefore wont spend money to see the movie. I see it as a viscious cycle. The less minority male/white female pairings happen in film the less likely the “general” public is accepting of them in future films. Producers therefore end up recasting minority males as “token” largely emasulated characters. As a minority male this is infuriating. Its not that i care who the female members of racial group date, its that they are given so many reasons in popular media to date white males. When a white guy is portrayed as “strong, smart, rich, and a leader” and his minority friend is there for ethnic humor largely at expense of his own racial group I get frustrated.

Sorry about the rant. =)

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:26 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:

I’m white, female, straight, and have dated men of all ethnicities. No cat-haters though!

As far as AM/WF relationships are concerned, from my own perspective: White guys hit on me. Latino guys hit on me. Black guys hit on me. Biracial guys hit on me. Asian guys…I’ve had to chase ‘em. I’m cute and smart and fun to be around, so it’s not like I’m Sadie Hawkins or anything.

It seems *from my perspective* that if Asian guys are not getting the play with all races of women that their white, black, Latino, multiracial brothers are - it’s not because women are picky gatekeepers. THEY aren’t doing enough chasing.

If a particular Asian guy is sitting home alone, I want to know - is he asking women out? Actually asking black or white or Latina women? Do Asian men think “what’s the use, no-one wants me?” Most women would rather be the pursued than the pursuer. Him that asks, gets!

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:29 pm ¶
Ejunco wrote:

Im Filipino(MALE) and I’ll be the first, or second or third to probably say it if I do see a Asian friend or some random Asian male go out with a white girl, I’ll probably say good! Why? Not because to give the Asian girls the dirty finger, but for me personally it’s because I rarely see Asian males go out with other females outside their race. Why? It’s because of all these stereotypes hell I wanted to go out with this Mexican/Italian chick out once but she gave me the “lets Just Be Friends vibe” and Yes I do feel sometimes “anti-asian girls goin out with white guys” and sometimes I’m not because I know some pretty okay white guys as acquaintances . But I give props to the Asian guys who do go out with girls outside their ethnic group

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:35 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

I’ll throw my hat into the ring here. I’m a black male in my early twenties. College educated, employed, and single as the number 1. I gave that biographical information so that you understand where I’m coming from.

I think 99& of the conversations on IR relationships would never occur if two things happened - (1) People learn to mind their own friggin business and (2) Folks in IR relationships stop pushing acting like IR relationships are gifts from martian gods.

Why should some black women feel rejected because some other black guy (they probably don’t know) is dating some other chick with a different skin color? Is the chip on the shoulder that big?
No where in my bible or any document have I seen where it says that black men were put here on Earth for only black women and vice versa. I’ve never been in a relationship in my life and I have weak game. All the girls I’ve ever approached have been black. I’ve been shot down enough times by all of them. I don’t for one second feel rejected by black women. I got shot down by these chicks because I had no game, I was not their type, I was too boring, I was not peter pan. Who the heck knows but my point is I’m not running all around the internets yapping on about how black women have failed me and other such rubbish. Cast a wide net into a bigger body of water and ye shall catch more fish.
Also what is it with all these comments talking about justification for being in an IR relationship? No one needs to justify anything to anyone except themselves. I normally don’t chime in on discussions on IR relationships but I feel I must speak my mind because the foolishness is way too much for me to ignore. What I see in most of these type topics is a group of people who have the “I will only date/marry a man from the __ race” mentality bash other people who don’t have that mentality. If you want to date only black women, good for you…I don’t care. If you want to date only Malaysian men, good for you…I don’t care. It has zip all to do with anybody but you. Who you date is none of my business. Your reasons for dating them is none of my business and I don’t want to know it good or bad. The viability of your relationship is none of my business and I don’t care. What you do in your life is none of my business.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:45 pm ¶
Lynne J wrote:

@Latoya: I actually thought long and hard before I wrote that term and certain things in his post drove me to say it. However, I respect your point and won’t use the term again.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:46 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

I love this quote:

8. lunanoire wrote:

“If you’re in an environment where few people are interested in someone of your race/gender, it’s a blow to the psyche. Everybody needs love.”

I was in a class (at Hampshire College) where the possible evolutionary psychological reasons for racial preference were being discussed (well, more like “rehashed” rather than critically examined–clichés about Asian women being appealing to white men because they look young, etc.), and as an Asian man who is really really tired of being so alienated and subjected to stereotypes and prejudice specifically designed to emasculate me (short, shy, small penis, romantically unsophisticated, crude to women, etc.), I began offering a dissenting opinion by saying, “That’s a political issue,” meaning to turn the discussion to the racial balance of power in America, but was quickly silenced by the continuing recitation of “biological” reasons why Asian women date non-Asian men at such a higher rate than Asian men date… anybody.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:47 pm ¶
Bill wrote:

It may be ignorant on my part, but I am a white male dating a very beautiful black female, and maybe it’s because I live in Los Angeles, but these issues seem so silly to me. This is 2008, and although I know that there is still plenty of prejudice in our country, people are people. I grew up in a very small, predominantly white town in Upstate NY, and I can imagine that interacial couples there still get stared at and talked about.

We have been together for 2 years and I’ve not noticed anyone being obvious about having an issue with us. We joke around about the differences in our upbringing because of our races, but we do not even concider ourselves to be interacial. We are two people who fit into each other’s lives perfectly and happen to be of different races. I pray for those people who are unable to get past color, and accept people for who they are. The goal should be to find someone you can mesh with, and not a specific race! I know, I am a dreamer, but who cares!

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:00 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

I swear the next time I see someone accuse another person of “self hate”, I’;; kidnap my neighbor’s kittens and shoot them. If you don’t want dead kittens on your hands then stop dropping bull crap terms like “self hate”.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:10 pm ¶
Gorgeous Black Women wrote:

I am a black woman and I have only had interracial relationships; that does not at all reflect on my dating preferences. I am open-minded when it comes to race and the reason I haven’t had any relationships with black men is because those I have expressed even the slightest bit of interest in have not been interested. I have been turned down by a non-black man… drum roll please… once ever. I understand that part of the reason for this is because the black men I’ve been around have been in very high demand due to the limited supply through college and graduate school. I am not aggressive and so I gets no love. I don’t really resent black men for this. It’s understandable. There are a bunch of black and non-black women basically throwing themselves at them. What’s the incentive exactly to be in a relationship when you know that there are several gorgeous, intelligent women you can call up at any hour for a roll in the hay? I can’t hate them for it. If I were sitting around waiting for a black man, I probably would be resentful but that’s never been the case.

At this point as I near my mid 20s, I don’t assume that I’m going to get married and have children. I feel like I’m going to be a “starter wife” at best because I’ve found that having a relationship with a black woman is a completely different ball game from actually marrying one. Even many open-minded men just don’t see little dark babies in their futures. C’est la vie. Live your life and if you find someone to share it with, great. If not, don’t let it keep you from living your life and don’t settle or compromise.

For SOME black women and Asian men, I can certainly see that partners of another race may feel like a major compromise. If race is that big of a deal to you, then you really shouldn’t be in an interracial relationship. You shouldn’t be with someone if they’re your consolation prize which is exactly why you need to not worry about the black men/Asian women who don’t want you. Do you want to be their consolation prize?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:12 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

68. Ailurophile

“Asian guys…I’ve had to chase ‘em.”

This is an often-used argument that is well meaning (there’s nothing wrong with Asian guys, they just have to get up and try!) but ultimately frustrating (what, it’s Asian guys’ fault?).

I think it ultimately comes down to the culture shock that Asians seem to feel so strongly when East meets West.

There seems to be a great divide between the responsibilities and expectations 1st generation Asian-American parents place on their sons versus their daughters. I was raised with traditional values with respect to the priority that dating would have in my life (only after I get my education and have an established career!). Girls are raised with these values, too, but it seems that perhaps owing to the traditional male role of supporting a family after an arranged marriage, Asian-American guys espouse this conservatism much more deeply than AA girls, who have the added pressure of being considered highly desirable by potential boyfriends. I guess Asian guys find it easier to follow the parental dictate of abstinence since we don’t get so much female attention in the first place.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:32 pm ¶
Elton wrote:

73. Bill

Racism is not “silly,” and neither are the very real feelings of abandonment and betrayal Asian men suffer because of the interracial dating disparity.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:36 pm ¶
Gorgeous Black Women wrote:

“If you’re in an environment where few people are interested in someone of your race/gender, it’s a blow to the psyche. Everybody needs love.”
“Why should some black women feel rejected because some other black guy (they probably don’t know) is dating some other chick with a different skin color? Is the chip on the shoulder that big?”

I live in Boston, Massachusetts. Black women are VERY unpopular here, including at many of the local colleges. White women are very unpopular at MIT but that’s a whole ‘nother topic. I actually stare when I see two young black people or two young Asian people together here with the exception of same-sex relationships. I am even more shocked if I overhear them and they are American. The only people I’ve noticed with any sort of interest in dating black women are white Hispanic men. I get hit on ONLY if I go to Jamaica Plain, Roxbury or Dorchester, and I don’t really think 15 or 60 year old men trying to holla count. Though it’s still appreciated. I have to wonder what impact it has on the black women who are born and raised here. If ever you want to see a lot of beautiful, chronically single black women, come on up. Of course, black women don’t get dibs on black men nor do Asian men get dibs on Asian women but I’m quite sure that if the situation were reversed, black men and Asian women would feel rather undesirable themselves. When the scales are tipped this much, it’s impossible not to notice though I don’t believe it entitles we “undesirables” to attack the “desirables.” New York City is just a train ride away.

I’ve always wondered why black women and Asian men don’t date each other. I’m open to it. Overall, I think the allegiance and/or family expectation to find “one of your kind” is greater for both groups. I also don’t think we have even positive views of each other overall. The default for Asian men expanding their options? White women. For black women? Hispanic whites and sometimes non-Hispanic whites.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:40 pm ¶
Kali wrote:

@Alikat
“Now I have come full circle and look at men as men. I am free to date whomever I want, and all good men have an equal opportunity to date me. I will no longer restrict myself.”

Bravo to that…and to middle age and wisdom.

*pours another shot of single blend scotch *

@Bill…I’m moving to California…I’m sick of being asked how we met and if ours is a second marriage (!!) blah blah blah.. here on the East coast…

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:46 pm ¶
Ailurophile wrote:

@GorgeousBlackWoman #75: “Don’t be a consolation prize” - I agree 100%! This goes for all genders and races and combinations thereof! For those who are tempted to date someone as a “last resort” even though you wish they were different - how would YOU like it if YOU were someone’s “consolation prize?” Not much, I’d wager.

I never wanted children and now am unable to produce them, so I’m not looking for a perfect “sperminator.” Though in the past some guys have thought I’d be a wonderful mother to their beautiful light-skinned children. NO GO. Not only is that degrading (I’m a person, not a brood mare, kthx) I AM CHILDFREE. My cats are my children and any man who wants to be with me has to accept that.

@Elton #72: So much of the evo-psycho “human nature” explanations are BS. Ev-psych is both sexist and racist. Besides, they talk out of both sides of their mouths - we women are supposed to not care about a man’s physical attributes, only his wallet, so in that case WHY would a man’s build or penis size matter? We’re supposed to want “good providers.” Therefore, by ev-psych logic, there ought to be a lot more WF/AM couples because of the number of educated AM professionals. But nooooo, when it comes to IR dating, the ev-psychs maintain that we women want muscular hunks! And so do AF’s, who go after those “masculine” white guys. It’s always the women’s fault…

I don’t think any “dating disparity” can be blamed on one gender or the other. For one thing, not everyone is straight. For another, in heterosexual relationships, the man is the initiator. If there’s a gender disparity, maybe the men aren’t doing the asking…

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:47 pm ¶
queerhapa wrote:

Excuse me if this has been brought up already, but are we only talkin’ heterosexual couples? What about the desirability of Asian men by other men (of any race), or of black women by other women (of any race)? Do the same hierarchies of desirability apply?

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:55 pm ¶
lunanoire wrote:

Kali,

Colorism is real; we wil never have a 100% khaki-colored world (see Brazil, etc.). Not to mention that siblings don’t necessary sare the same skin color.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:56 pm ¶
Shauna wrote:

@Lynne J

“I want children that look like me, that look like my parents and my grandparents. I don’t believe that is stupid. I actually think that is normal.”

Are you saying that mixed children don’t look like one/both of their parents, and therefore you don’t want to date interracially? I think that mixed children do look like their parents, its just that some people can’t see past race. For example an article in Time had a picture of Obama next to a picture of his mom when she was younger and they looked very much alike.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 6:58 pm ¶
Jas wrote:

“@Jas: Careful Jas…your self-hatred and misogyny towards black women is showing. First, you say you have never dated a black woman and that your social circle is very white. Also, that the black men you do socialize with are apart of this circle. Then later you claim to know so much about black women, who they date, who they reject (namely you because you are so smart and not a thug) and what their standards may, or may not be. How do you know so much about the dating habits of black women, if they are not part of your social circle, or life? Osmosis?”

My social circle is very white but I’m not completely isolated from black women. When I was at University the school was 87% white and about 5% black. The town I lived in while at school was about 90% white and 3% black. I currently live home in a predominantly upper-class black area and go to a predominantly black community college and am in the nursing program where the vast majority of students are black and female. So my classmates, neighbors, and co-workers are diverse and do include many black females who I talk to.

I do have black male friends who are outside of that circle but haven’t kept in much contact with them since Highschool since we all pretty much scattered across the country and did our own thing since graduation. Some joined the military, some went to school, some worked, and some I haven’t heard from since HS.

I also frequent black forums, discussion groups, read about racial issues, and yes I do talk to and associate with other blacks but the majority of my closest friends and most of them are white. Relationships and IR relationships were also an interest of study for me while I was working on my Psych degree in college. Maybe I should have been more specific but I really didn’t feel like that was relevant information. I’m not a minority in some Caucasian bubble and didn’t mean to come off that way.

I wasn’t generalizing all black women or black men. I was simply stating what I’ve experienced in my life and what I’ve seen in regards to IR and dating in my personal experiences as it relates to blacks and how I’ve seen other blacks, male and female, deal with and address the issue. I also don’t recall claiming that I’m “smart” and “not a thug.” I simply said that I think there are SOME black women who have certain standards when they’re looking for a black partner, some of which are superficial or ridiculous, and when those standards aren’t met SOME will immediately claim there are no good black men and will blame IR or some other irrelevant issue instead of taking a look at their priorities. Once again I’m not saying all or even most, I’m saying some. The vast majority of black men are not in jail. The vast majority of black men aren’t getting love in da club with other dudes. The vast majority of black men aren’t running to white women. And the vast majority of black men aren’t completely uneducated or hiding in caves. I’m not saying that ALL black women think this way, but I’ve noticed that black males and females who date interracially and feel the need to justify it or defend themselves by complaining about their the opposite gender of their racial group by stereotyping them just as badly as any racially ignorant white individual would.

I’m not saying that there isn’t a disparity and that black women don’t face obstacles in terms of marriage and dating. I’m saying that there are also other contributing factors that relate to this issue that just don’t have to do with IR and the rate of black men in prison.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 7:36 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

@ Everyone -

I see Carmen held down the comments while I was out. Glad to see the discussion progressing and you checking each other. And I really want to express how happy I am with the general flow of all these conversations. There have been some bumps, but we are mostly rolling.

Now, I can just sit there and hope y’all don’t start to hate me for what I post next week.

@Kelvin - Uh-huh. No experience you said? I’m going to harass you harder next time.

@QueerHapa - The conversation is way hetero, isn’t it? Feel free to weigh in at any time. I approached four different queer writers I knew to write for this series and they have all been shirking my emails or don’t want to write about it. I begged one of my homeboys for a favor - his piece should be coming in next week, but I gave him a few different topics so I am not sure what the final piece will cover.

Any one else that is queer and willing to write about their experience dating interracially (or not) feel free to drop me an email: latoya@racialicious.com

@Lynne J - Thank you for understanding.

@Everyone - Do we need some posts on IR Dating and class? Because I am seeing some good points (and some serious assumptions) made.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:13 pm ¶
Kali wrote:

@lunanoire
‘khaki’ was a metaphor.
my own kids are multi-hued - rather like the racialicious logo (perhaps that is why i like it so much) - my kids are not easily labeled ‘black’ or ‘white’ .i feel that in a couple decades with a ever increasing ‘mixed-race’ population no one will bother to pigeon-hole people in this way - anxiety about racial purity is not going to prevent this.

i look forward to a hapa world that is accepting of all sexual preferences.

Latoya’s stated her aim of getting people to dissect and understand their own and others’ feelings about ‘interracial’ dating - so i don’t think it hurts to hear the point of view of people who have *lived* the interracial option (at an even less accepting time) - and feel happy and fulfilled with their choice.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:15 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Gorgeous Black Woman
“Of course, black women don’t get dibs on black men nor do Asian men get dibs on Asian women but I’m quite sure that if the situation were reversed, black men and Asian women would feel rather undesirable themselves.”

I can only speak for myself on this one. While I really understand where you are coming from, I still would not care if the reverse was the case. It’s not like women (Black/White/Asian/Venusian) are falling over themselves at my front door vying to date me and I’m still alive.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:20 pm ¶
B wrote:

“Kelvin wrote:
I swear the next time I see someone accuse another person of “self hate”, I’ll kidnap my neighbor’s kittens and shoot them. If you don’t want dead kittens on your hands then stop dropping bull crap terms like ’self hate.’”
ROTFL! Save the kittens!

@Kali #79 re:”I’m sick of being asked how we met and if ours is a second marriage (!!)”
That happens to ya’ll too? It annoys the heck out of me. My current strategy is to politely ask it back whenever someone in a couple asks.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:20 pm ¶
Shelby wrote:

Demographics: I’m a 21 yr old black woman from a middle class (99%white) background.

I can identify SO much with the other black women here who haven’t gotten ANY love from anyBODY. And it does chip away at my self-esteem. Big time. No one approached me, ever, in high school and I figured that was just because white guys didn’t date black girls in my town. But the REAL blow didn’t come til college when virtually no guy, of any race, has ever approached me. I would love to be in a relationship with a caring person of any race, but it just doesn’t happen. The only time black guys try to holla is if they think I’m mixed. Once they find out both my parents are black they’re done. And the only other guys that even try to talk to me are drunk white boys who want me to shake my @ss for them.
Needless to say it’s all really disheartening. And I could be in a relationship right now if I lowered my standards and allowed myself to be exoticized. But who really wants that?
It’s hard being aware. I can’t forget the fact that, as a black woman, I have virtually no value to the general population. And I see this fact confirmed just about every day :/

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:21 pm ¶
Kelvin wrote:

@Latoya
“Uh-huh. No experience you said? I’m going to harass you harder next time.”

Have at it :=)

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:25 pm ¶
Kali wrote:

@B
i just re-read your initial post. the ‘how/where did you meet’ is voyeurism poorly concealed and does not deserve an answer!! high five from me to you

i also get ”your english is sooo good” from whites colleagues (i have postgrad qualifications too) and my answer used to be ”and so is yours” - but as i get older i really can’t be bothered to respond at all

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:35 pm ¶
Alvin Lin wrote:

We live in a world where global (Western) mass media images constantly degrade or marginalized Asian men, while exotifying or objectifying Asian women almost always with White men.

Mass media has a huge unconscious effect on everyone’s opinions, preferences, behaviors, and even attraction. Asians are especially susceptible to status ‘branding’, even in terms of ‘branding’ men.

This results in dysfunction where Asians on both genders have self hate or White worship. Obviously Asian women have more opportunity to act on these brainwashed views, but as this page attests, plenty of Asian males put White people on a pedestal too, but they fight an uphill battle to show their inferiority complex since other women are conditioned with negative views toward Asian men.

Mod Note: Oh dear God, the kittens! Alvin, you make a good point about media images, but let’s stay away from the descriptor “self-hating.” It is not conducive to a conversation, and generally only serves to start a fight.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:43 pm ¶
jvansteppes wrote:

Eric Daniels, I find it interesting that in critiquing arguments about a lack of available black men you refer to the myth of the down low when not one person had brought that concept up. I’m also confused as to whether you’re trying to deny that there are black queer/GLB men. The comment about being” down at the gay bar picking up a ‘gay thug” calls on sensationalist ideas of black men who have sex with men or transgendered people instead of deflating it; there is nothing wrong with black men who ARE down at the gay bar picking up whoever they like. Period.

Posted 20 May 2008 at