NY Times Op-Ed: Obama is “President Apostate”

by Latoya Peterson

There is never a dull moment, is there?

I am already behind on posts for this week when reader Orientalista alerted us in the comments to the existence of this New York Times Op-Ed that argues that Obama is a Muslim.

Again.

Post-Reverend Wright.

Edward N. Luttwak, a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, writes:

One danger of such charisma, however, is that it can evoke unrealistic hopes of what a candidate could actually accomplish in office regardless of his own personal abilities. Case in point is the oft-made claim that an Obama presidency would be welcomed by the Muslim world.

This idea often goes hand in hand with the altogether more plausible argument that Mr. Obama’s election would raise America’s esteem in Africa — indeed, he already arouses much enthusiasm in his father’s native Kenya and to a degree elsewhere on the continent.

But it is a mistake to conflate his African identity with his Muslim heritage. Senator Obama is half African by birth and Africans can understandably identify with him. In Islam, however, there is no such thing as a half-Muslim. Like all monotheistic religions, Islam is an exclusive faith.

As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant.

Of course, as most Americans understand it, Senator Obama is not a Muslim. He chose to become a Christian, and indeed has written convincingly to explain how he arrived at his choice and how important his Christian faith is to him.

His conversion, however, was a crime in Muslim eyes; it is “irtidad” or “ridda,” usually translated from the Arabic as “apostasy,” but with connotations of rebellion and treason. Indeed, it is the worst of all crimes that a Muslim can commit, worse than murder (which the victim’s family may choose to forgive).

Allah, take the wheel!

Where do we even start on this one?

Let’s all take a quick moment to visit Aaminah’s post on What Makes a Muslim, and this post on Dunner’s. Five Pillars, Six Articles of Faith. Got it! Let’s move on.

Orientalista writes:

Obama just can’t win.

First he was criticized for being too “in” with the Muslims. He was accused of being one, of being indoctrinated at an Islamic madrassa in Indonesia, of expressing sympathy for the Palestinians, and for the endorsements of Hamas. While Obama has replied by shoring up his “I love Jesus” cred and declaring himself no less a friend of Israel than Clinton, the insinuations continue.

Now, an op-ed in the New York Times goes the other way: Obama would piss the shit out of Muslims. The author, Edward N. Luttwak of the conservative thinktank Center for Strategic and International Studies, begins by benignly praising Obama’s charisma and well-organized campaign - this so we know that what follows isn’t an attack on Obama, just fact.

Theoretically speaking, Luttwak posits, Muslims the world over would demand Obama’s blood, should he become president.

Here’s what Luttwak actually says in the Op-Ed:

With few exceptions, the jurists of all Sunni and Shiite schools prescribe execution for all adults who leave the faith not under duress; the recommended punishment is beheading at the hands of a cleric, although in recent years there have been both stonings and hangings. (Some may point to cases in which lesser punishments were ordered — as with some Egyptian intellectuals who have been punished for writings that were construed as apostasy — but those were really instances of supposed heresy, not explicitly declared apostasy as in Senator Obama’s case.)

It is true that the criminal codes in most Muslim countries do not mandate execution for apostasy (although a law doing exactly that is pending before Iran’s Parliament and in two Malaysian states). But as a practical matter, in very few Islamic countries do the governments have sufficient authority to resist demands for the punishment of apostates at the hands of religious authorities.

[…]

Because no government is likely to allow the prosecution of a President Obama — not even those of Iran and Saudi Arabia, the only two countries where Islamic religious courts dominate over secular law — another provision of Muslim law is perhaps more relevant: it prohibits punishment for any Muslim who kills any apostate, and effectively prohibits interference with such a killing.

At the very least, that would complicate the security planning of state visits by President Obama to Muslim countries, because the very act of protecting him would be sinful for Islamic security guards. More broadly, most citizens of the Islamic world would be horrified by the fact of Senator Obama’s conversion to Christianity once it became widely known — as it would, no doubt, should he win the White House. This would compromise the ability of governments in Muslim nations to cooperate with the United States in the fight against terrorism, as well as American efforts to export democracy and human rights abroad.

So I finished reading this craptastic article all prepared to write an angry diatribe…but, wait. The comments section of the NYT has done it for me!

Check these out:

One need only travel through the Middle East and talk to the people in local cafes and markets to understand that Barack Obama’s candidacy is in fact bringing hope and excitement to the Muslim world. I have been living and studying in Cairo, but have also traveled to Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Turkey and the Palestinian territories. Without exception, when I reveal myself to be American I am met with enthusiastic cheers of, “Obama! Obama!”. It’s not about whether or not he is or was a Muslim, it’s about putting an end to George Bush’s foreign policy, which has wreaked havoc on this region. In the Middle East, people believe Barack Obama is the man for that job.

— Rafaela, Cairo

Edward N. Luttwak suggests that Barack Obama as president far from improving relations with Muslims might inflame them on the grounds that he was an apostate and thus even subject to execution. It’s good to try to know more about Islam, but soi-disant expertise of this sort may serve primarily to confirm two fundamental fallacies in American assumptions about Muslims. The first is that Islam is essentially a violent and irrational religion. The second is that Muslims’ attitudes to America are based on religious difference and not on American behavior in the world. Instead of focusing on apostasy, let’s try out the logic of another Islamic teaching, namely the saying of the Prophet that all humans are born Muslim (i.e. like all of nature attuned to God’s laws) anid t’s only their parents that turn them into Christians, Zoroastrians, etc. By that logic, Luttwak and Obama are approximately equally deviant.

— Barbara D. Metcalf, Professor of History, University of Michigan

I don’t know if what Mr. Luttwak says has any real bearing on Obama’s effectiveness in the Muslim world, but assassination attempts on this President are more likely to occur at home for the color of his skin than abroad for the sin of apostasy. The more familiar and disturbing threat remains local, I think.

Thanks to post 15. for bringing a more reasoned view. I think Luttwak misses the point. The U.S. is despised by most of the Muslim world not for the crime of apostasy but rather for the legacy of colonialism that has sought at every turn to diminish it. Mr Obama’s religious convictions, past or present, remain irrelevant.

BTW, the guy’s a Christian, of a sort that finds it’s political bearing in the experience of black America. That experience is not unlike the experience of Muslims under colonialism, a fact most Muslims understand and appreciate better than Mr. Luttwak.
— geraldmc, brooklyn

I’ve read the article with an increasing feeling of confusion. I am a Muslim woman from the “Islamic world”, and I have never ever heard Senator Obama referred to as a Muslim presidential candidate by anyone in the Middle East and other Islamic countries in Africa/South East Asia. I don’t understand where the idea that he’s viewed here as a Muslim candidate originated, and the writer conveniently forgets to inform us where he got this information from. Although the writer is an alleged researcher in a fairly respectable research think-tank, I have patiently read the article to it’s last sentence hoping to be suddenly enlightened about the crucial fact on which he bases his entire preposterous article, yet I was sadly disappointed. I understand it is an opinion piece, but I also know that when you state a fact and build an entire sequence of events based on that fact, you have to prove your fact and state it’s source. Yet, the article blithely rages on about a highly exaggerated, Orientalist-constructed “Islamic world” in which people devote their time to butchering their fellow citizens for renouncing their religion. Only two countries in the Arab world have laws to that effect - Iran and Saudi Arabia. However, it also slipped the writer’s mind to mention that while the U.S. is on a crusade to eliminate the Iranian regime (not because they kill apostates), it is a firm ally of Saudi Arabia - an authoritarian, anti-democratic, monarchical regime that has been married to the most fanatic brand of Islam for the last 250 years. Yet the Saudi regime flourishes because of it’s support from the world’s only super-power. The same super-power that invaded Iraq to “spread democracy and freedom”.

I would like to assure the writer and his readers that until his article, we have never viewed Mr. Obama as a Muslim, nor will we ever do, because he came out and said that his step-father, not his biological father, was the one who renounced Islam. If the writer had any credible knowledge of Islam, instead of the ignorant hype which he espouses, he would have known that Islam considers the child to belong to his biological father’s religion, and not to any other parent. This is why we don’t consider Mr. Obama as Muslim, but as an African-American Christian. Therefore, if he ever gets elected as president, he will never be in any jeopardy if he visits any Muslim country, 1.because most countries don’t kill American presidents (the only two American presidents - Lincoln & JFK - who were assassinated, met their sad fate by the hands of fellow-Americans, on American soil) and 2. most countries don’t kill Christian presidents either.

— Dina, Cairo, Egypt

Well, well. The majority of the comments to the NYT piece were in that vein. We may have a long way to go in terms of race relations and the acceptance of different perspectives in America, and the responses to one Op-Ed (or one potential presidency) will not change that fact.

But I would be lying if I didn’t say my little anti-racist grinch heart grew three sizes today.

(Picture Credit: George Bates for the New York Times)

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. The Trouble with Posting at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 19 May 2008 at 11:30 am

    […] example, the comments thread on the President Apostate post. Some concerns were brought to me offline, and I addressed them offline. However, Racialicious […]

Comments

  1. Aaminah wrote:

    Ugg… this is ridiculous. Just another way to take focus from the important things in the campaign. Obama cannot be an apostate because he never was a Muslim. Having a Muslim parent does not make you a Muslim; it is an active choice that each individual must make regardless of who their parents are, what culture they come from, where they went to school, etc. There’s nothing wrong with him being a Christian. At some point in his life, he decided that is where his faith lies, and that is fine. It’s got nothing whatsoever to do with Islam, and he shouldn’t have to answer to such nonsense.

  2. Aaminah wrote:

    Why oh why would anyone be taking Edward N. Luttwak’s word for what Islamic law is and isn’t anyway???

  3. Sarah J wrote:

    Seems like Luttwak’s confused Islam with some forms of Judaism that consider you a Jew if your mother was Jewish.

    Except even by that logic, Obama would not be Muslim.

    (And I would not be Jewish, but that’s a whole other story.)

    Good god, let’s hype up the fear of Muslims more, shall we? I’m so sick of this.

  4. Kai wrote:

    Yeah I’m with Aaminah, Luttwak is an idiot. This is just completely reckless stuff from the Times. I think I learned waayyy back in undergrad comparative religion that becoming a Muslim involves a three-part conscious declaration before a Muslim witness, not some inescapable genetic inheritance. What maliciously moronic drivel.

  5. Erica B. wrote:

    Maybe it’s supposed to be satire — taking an absurd proposition to its most extreme possible conclusion…

    No, on second thought, Luttwak is just an idiot.

    (A side note, James Garfield and William McKinley were also assassinated — but, like Lincoln and Kennedy, by Americans in America. There have been various unsuccessful attempts against other presidents; two were outside the US. There was a conspiracy to blow up George H.W. Bush when he was going to visit Kuwait in 1993, and somebody threw a grenade at George W. Bush when he was visiting Georgia [the country] in 2005.)

  6. Fatemeh wrote:

    “Allah, take the wheel.”
    lol!
    Seriously. I’m with Aaminah. Eff this guy; what does he even know? What are his credentials?
    Nice job, NYT commenters!

  7. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ Fatemeh–didn’t ya know, friend? His anti-Muslim hatred and general xenophobia (along with the ability not to make him come off like a half-literate Klansman) *are* his credentials, according to the New York Times.

    ::eye roll::

    I agree: thankfully, the commenters cut this ish.

  8. ChiquitaBonita wrote:

    I was reading an article in response to that Times piece yesterday and I’m desperately trying to remember where I saw it. It basically said that Luttwak has a very poor grasp on the Islamic laws about what makes someone Muslim or not, and that for many reasons Obama wouldn’t be considered Muslim by any standards.

    I know I shouldn’t be surprised, but somehow, I’m still shocked that the Times would print such an ill-informed piece. As if there isn’t always a danger that someone will try to assassinate the president. This was such a pointless article, only trying prey on people’s fears and ignorance. Glad to see the comments standing up against that kind of crap.

  9. Ms. Four wrote:

    “Having a Muslim parent does not make you a Muslim…”

    Actually, in Egypt it does. It’ll illegal to convert from Islam here. Egyptians are not allowed to change their official religion from Islam on their government-issue identity cards. At least one family that had converted to Christianity is, last I heard, “missing.” Coptic Christianity is officially recognized, by can only be practiced by born Copts.

    Of course, none of this has anything to do with Obama and how Egyptians view him. And this op-ed is ridiculous on many levels. Not sure why it got published, really.

  10. Abu Sinan wrote:

    This is done for one reason, and one reason only: to create more fear about Obama.

    For most lower class uneducated white people he represents an unknown; couple this with loose associations with black racists (Farakhan), with unknown and scary religions (Islam) and on-fire black preachers (Wright) it creates enough doubt in some of their minds that they will vote for anyone but him or stay home.

    This dirty tricks campaign is coming from all directions, including from within the Democratic Party itself.

  11. F wrote:

    I am getting so tired of reading articles about Muslims and I am Muslim.

    I feel that everywhere I turn there is another article about oppressed Muslim women, backwards Muslim practices, etc.

    We, as Muslims, have a lot of problems - particularly that we are stuck with conservative, sexist interpretations of the Qur’an that have distorted not only the underlying principles of Islam but have taken away the ability for ordinary Muslims to engage in debate, interpretation, etc, and to define their religion for themselves - and this has led to a lot of the things that these articles cover. But just once I’d like someone to realise that there are 1.2 billion Muslims in this world. We are as different as any other group of that many people. We aren’t some exotic, looming threat. We’re just people. Most of us just want to live our lives. And while we do have a great responsibility to learn about our own religion, to engage in discussing reform, etc, with one another, this is no different to what any other religious group does or should do.

  12. F wrote:

    Also there is NO global Islamic law. There is just a collection of shifting, different interpretations. Obama did not grow up in a Muslim state that proscribed apostasy laws. He grew up in the US. His religion is personal and there is no Muslim authority to smack him for not being a Muslim. The ‘rules’ don’t really matter to him. A Muslim, ultimately, is a person who says they are one and nothing else.

  13. Nadra wrote:

    Like Obama, I have an African Muslim father. Like Obama, my father was not a part of my life when I was growing up, so I came of age in no way connected to Islam. As a child, I made a decision to become a Christian. When I meet other Muslims and explain my background to them (something I do because of the questions my Arabic name generates), they never react violently or consider me to be treasonous in any way, and I have interacted with Muslims both in America and abroad. I don’t understand how anyone could think Obama (or anyone else in his situation) could be guilty of turning his back on the religion of the father and grandfather he never knew.

  14. Aaminah wrote:

    “Having a Muslim parent does not make you a Muslim…”

    “Actually, in Egypt it does.”

    Well, no, it doesn’t. Because being a Muslim is NOT something that the state CAN legislate. Being Muslim means surrendering oneself to WAllah. No state can make you do that, and there is no genuine Islamic law that does that.

    What you are talking about is a state-law that a) has nothing to do with actual Islamic law, and b) is not really meaningful because being a Muslim is a state of being and requires an active choice by the individual to believe in Islam.

  15. Orientalista wrote:

    I just love how Luttwak is most worried about how this will hurt other governments’ ability to cooperate with the US on fighting terror and “exporting” democracy and human rights (did you know that human rights is the US’s third largest crop after corn and soybeans?).

    As we’re doing so well on these right now.

  16. NancyP wrote:

    Not to mention the complication of whether children can make truly informed religious commitments…

    So when do most American-born children of Muslim parents commit?

    Most mainstream Protestant denominations seem to consider age 13-16 to be appropriate age, conservative Protestant denominations vary (Baptists - adult to teen; neopentecostal - whenever the child can speak the words).

  17. kd wrote:

    I dont believe that he is a praticing muslim, but I think that he was “classified” as muslim when he was in school abroad-because his father was a muslim. Right?

  18. muffinsinegypt wrote:

    Two things:

    1) As many, many people have said before me, the article is wrong on many levels. If there is anything I’ve noticed over the past five months in Egypt, it is an overwhelming support for Obama. There are constantly op-eds in the papers here demanding Hillary’s withdrawal, and one of the first questions new acquaintances ask me (upon learning that I am American), is whether I support Obama. It’s usually a good thing I do.

    2) Aaminah, yes, it is true that the state can’t actually legislate anyone’s religious identity…since religion is actually (no matter what religion it is) between the believer and the belief (and, to varying extents, the institutions associated with that belief). However, it is true that in many countries (like Egypt, which is by no means the most conservative of the Arab countries, but also not the most liberal, either) your religious identity is part of your legal identity. If you change your religion, you also change your legal identity. You have to go to the state to convert, officially. While in Egypt there was recently a ruling that Christians who converted to Islam could convert back without receiving major penalties, both Muslim leaders and Coptic leaders have discouraged conversion in general. Leaving the religious identity of your father is seen as a kind of religious treason.

    That said, I don’t see this having any bearing whatsoever on Obama’s popularity in the Middle East or among Muslims. From what I’ve observed, the complete opposite of what Luttwak suggests is true.

    Also…while I am not sure if this means anything (because I have had less interaction with Copts), I have noticed less support for him among Egyptian Christians. I don’t know if this points to a perception that he is (somewhere, deep down) a Muslim, or that he will be more sympathetic to Muslims, or if it is just a coincidental result of the particular Copts I spoke with. It did happen enough times to give pause.

    I don’t think it really matters whether people abroad think Obama is a Muslim as much as it does whether people at home think so (which is why articles like this are so annoying), but judging from my personal experience, and the experience of my friends and classmates, I don’t think it is completely crazy to suggest that among some Muslims abroad, Obama is perceived as a brother.

  19. Hot Tramp wrote:

    I know print journalism is seeing budget cutbacks, but seriously — fact checkers? Hello?

  20. DivergentDana wrote:

    Okay, wait. The first time these accusations came about it was argued that an Obama presidency would be bad because Muslims would see him as a “brother” and like him too much and/or he would be some kind of Manchurian candidate and do the Muslim world’s bidding (whatever that is) and now it’s bad because they see him as treasonous and hate, hate, hate them some Obama? I’m confused.

  21. kathy wrote:

    I find the NYT op-ed piece to be an endorsement of fear and hate.

  22. Aaminah wrote:

    “However, it is true that in many countries (like Egypt, which is by no means the most conservative of the Arab countries, but also not the most liberal, either) your religious identity is part of your legal identity.”

    I understand what you are saying, but the problem is still that a state law is being equated with actual Islamic law. This is NOT Islamic law. Islamic law does NOT legislate that a person is Muslim based on their father’s religion. ISLAMICALLY: A minor child is, yes, considered a Muslim, but it is still necessary for them upon attaining puberty to make a conscious and public choice as to whether they are Muslim and making the testification of faith, and accepting the Five Pillars & Six Articles of Faith that make a person a Muslim.

    Anyone can argue that all they want, what the “legal” status is, but it means nothing. The Islamic legal status is the only status that means anything. Of course, non-Muslims don’t understand that and want to apply state-sanctioned law to the situation, but it is still a completely moot point.

  23. jd wrote:

    Even IF the state can legislate one’s religious identity, and even IF every Muslim state chose to do by declaring children Muslim if their birth fathers were Muslim, and even IF those states required or just encouraged the killing of adult apostates…

    what the HELL does that have to do with Barack Obama who, as even the writer admits, left Islam (to the extent he was ever Muslim to begin with) as a child? Why don’t you talk about what the rules are for that? Oh, right, cause then you couldn’t scare people with talk of presidential assassinations.

  24. Sewere wrote:

    If Obama gets the presidency, (if for nothing else), I am going to relish two things:

    1. That for the first time in history someone with a name like mine will say these words “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States”

    2. Every racist idiot from here to the Atlantic seaboard (yup that means you too Luttwak) will be frothing in the mouth every time someone says President Obama.

  25. P wrote:

    “We’re just people. Most of us just want to live our lives. And while we do have a great responsibility to learn about our own religion, to engage in discussing reform, etc, with one another, this is no different to what any other religious group does or should do.”

    F,

    If Islam is just like any other religion, why can’t believers just leave the religion like the rest of us?

    No further question, your honor.

  26. P wrote:

    “ISLAMICALLY: A minor child is, yes, considered a Muslim, but it is still necessary for them upon attaining puberty to make a conscious and public choice as to whether they are Muslim and making the testification of faith, and accepting the Five Pillars & Six Articles of Faith that make a person a Muslim. ”

    Aaminah,

    This is nonsense. From my experience with Muslim countries, the offsprings of Muslims are immediately Muslims.

    When they decide that they don’t really want to be Muslims when they grew up, they become like this:

    http://www.geocities.com/exmuslims_survey/problems.html

  27. Sewere wrote:

    Also, this idiot is supposedly comes from a think tank on global security and he didn’t have anyone in their political, cultural and religious history review his idiotic post before sending it off (same goes for NYT)?

    ::muttering to himself:: I should know better I’ve attended poli sci seminars by jackasses like him.

  28. lm wrote:

    So Rev. Wright is, what, a Baptist Muslim?

    *rolleyes*

    I think racists have a little box in their heads called “hate”, and anyone that doesn’t
    - look like them,
    - worship like them,
    - talk like them, or
    - live like them

    goes in it.

  29. lm wrote:

    One more thing.

    I guess if Charlotte Allen — of “Women are Dumb” fame — can get an Op-Ed published in WaPo, then Littwak can get one published in the NYT.

    However, has it occurred to anyone on the boards of either of those illustrious “papers of record” (I never in a million years thought I would roll my eyes here, but *rolleyes*) that if they care at all about the U.S. intellectual reputation — and thus, perhaps, its ability to influence world policy, for good or ill — overseas, that they’re doing a staggeringly good job of completely demolishing it??

  30. Aaminah wrote:

    “what the HELL does that have to do with Barack Obama who, as even the writer admits, left Islam (to the extent he was ever Muslim to begin with) as a child? Why don’t you talk about what the rules are for that?”

    Totally! But that’s what happens when people want to take a non-Muslim, white (and yeah, I said “white” because this is really about him having an issue with a Black man and using Islam as a secondary factor) man who writes for the NYT, as some kind of authority. Pleeze. This man knows NOTHING about what he’s talking about, and is making it up as he goes along. This isn’t even journalism!

  31. Ms. Four wrote:

    “Anyone can argue that all they want, what the “legal” status is, but it means nothing. ”

    Aaminah, of course it matters. It matters very much to people who live in a country where there is no religious freedom. It matters very much to people who cannot practice the religion they believe. Who cannot not practice a religion. Who cannot say what they truly feel.

    I know what you are saying: that state laws don’t make anyone a true follower. I agree. But these laws matters very much to people in their everyday lives.

    It’s easy to say government laws mean “nothing” when you live under a government that allows you to practice your religion in peace.

    We westerners take so many of our freedoms for granted.

    (All of which has nothing to do with Obama and this particularly terrible op-ed.)

  32. Aaminah wrote:

    Ms. Four, please. Do not assume that I am taking anything for granted, nor that I am allowed to practice my religion “in peace”. That is what you want to believe about America, but it is not quite that simplistic. You hate Egypt, it is very clear from your blog, so your opinion about how things work there doesn’t really mean much to me.

    In any case, you are completely twisting the point. You are talking about state-sanctioned stuff that is completely irrelevent to what Islamic law is. You would rather, like Luttwak, change the subject to what suits you and call it an issue with Islam. It’s not an issue with Islam, it’s an issue with Egyptian government & policy. Nothing you are describing has a place within Islam, but you conflate it as such and thereby continue to spread misinformation.

  33. Ms. Four wrote:

    Aaminah, I was responding specifically to your comment that “Having a Muslim parent does not make you a Muslim,” and I was offering up a different perspective, that, in fact, in some places, this is very much the case. I understand exactly what you are saying about Islamic law versus state law. You are refusing to acknowledge that state law can compel people to practice a religion they don’t believe. Is the issue that you are such a believer in Islam you can’t accept anyone would be compelled to follow it?

    And of course this has to do with the Egyptian government (and any other government that compels people to practice a religion; this is not an issue in the Muslim world only).

    You have had a problem with me since I complained about Egyptian racism against my black children. Perhaps you don’t remember that you suggested it was good my children had to deal with racism so their white mother would learn a lesson–but I do as it remains one of the cruelest comments I’ve ever heard anyone make here on Racialicious, especially given that it was directed towards preschool children.

    I don’t hate Egypt (and I suspect you are not reading my blog with an open mind; regardless, as little as you care what I think about Egypt–I care even less what you think about my blog). Nothing is so simple as that. And I certainly don’t hate the many Muslim women here who are my friends. I do hate racism towards my children and other sub-Saharan Africans (as do the Egyptians who are my friends, who are perfectly capable of acknowledging problems here, as you seem unable to do).

    And I don’t think it’s simple in the States. But I do know, for example, that American people are allowed to enter any house of worship which they choose. That does not happen here.

    I never agreed with the op-ed. I have said that in each and every comment I’ve made. I’ve attempted to engage you, but you grow increasingly hostile towards me. I will not begin the guess the reason, but I would like to ask that you at least try to read my words with an open mind. It is the courtesy I have extended to you.

  34. F wrote:

    P,

    No, you don’t rest your case. There is no compulsion in Islam. There is nothing stopping me, for example, from becoming a Christian tomorrow. If I lived in certain countries, this would be illegal, because those governments have adopted a political version of Islam for their own purposes. That is different from the religion itself being that way.

  35. F wrote:

    Mrs Four and Aaminah,

    I do think that there is a lot of racism in the Muslim world. For example - look at the segregation that happens at Mecca when people go on the Hajj! For such an act based on unity and equality, it has unfortunately become subject to a lot of prejudice and racism.

  36. Abu Sinan wrote:

    Ms Four,

    All though the state law of Egypt might compell the children of Muslim parents to be listed as Muslim, that hardly means that they are compelled to practice their religion. I have been to Egypt a few times and my sister in law’s husband comes from Egypt. No one is compelled to practice Islam in Egypt. It is not like Saudi Arabia where people are forced to pray, Islamic law (their version of it) is forced upon the people. This just isnt true. If you think so you havent been to Cairo late at night with the non practicing Muslims going to bars, clubs and getting as drunbk as can be.

    The racism issue cuts across culture and religion in Africa and the Middle East, so to have an issue with Egypt about it seems a bit selective. Some of the most “racist” people in the area I met where often sub Saharan Africans with an obsession over tribal and ethnic affliation as well as an obsession with skin colour.

    F-

    The “segregation” that happens at Mecca when people go on Hajj has much more to do with practical issues than race. Hajj is not an easy thing to do and most people have NO clue as to how to do it. Hence they are conducted in groups by professional companies. These are done according to country of origin, and of course, language. It would be a bit stupid to do a group for diversity’s sake when no one involved shared a common language. That doesnt make sense does it?

    If you look at the groups to go to Hajj from countries that share a common language, but are diverse, you’ll see no such thing. if you look at the groups that come from places like Canada, the USA, UK and such, they include white people, as well as Indians, Arabs, Pakistanis, Africans, you name it. The difference being they come from a common country with a common language.

    Think about it, would you join a group for a tour that was conducted in a language you dont speak? I dont deny racism in the Muslim world, but at least attribute it when it is proper and not attribute it when ignorance keeps one form knowing what is really going on.

  37. Ms. Four wrote:

    Abu, I fully understand that people are not compelled to practice Islam here and that it is different from Saudi Arabia. I also know quite well that it is illegal for a born-Muslim to practice any other religion (just as a born Coptic Christian may not become, for example, a Protestant). Egypt is an incredibly repressive government. People do not have very many rights, of speech or religion.

    Please do not lecture me on the country where I reside based on your visits to the Pyramids.

    And I continue to be amazed at how some people (Muslim Americans? Arab Americans?) who comment at Racialicious deny the existence of racism in Egypt. I have never suggested it has anything to do with Islam. Indeed, if there were mass conversions, there would still be plenty of racism here.

    The reason I have an issue with racism in Egypt is because I live here and my (sub-Saharan African) kids hear racist slurs against them here. Somehow I do not think my comments would be more welcome if I framed them as a regional one rather than a country-specific one.

    “Some of the most “racist” people in the area I met where often sub Saharan Africans with an obsession over tribal and ethnic affliation as well as an obsession with skin colour.”

    And this must be one of the most patronizing, ignorant comments I’ve read on these boards.

    My entire point was to broaden the conversation from an American-centric one to a more international perspective.

  38. Joseph wrote:

    Hey! You got your Race-baiting in my Islamophobia! No, you got your Islamophobia in my Race-baiting!

    Two great tastes that taste great together!

    Sigh.

  39. jd wrote:

    P,

    If you think Christianity and Islam are soo different, you clearly haven’t read Deuteronomy 13. The Bibically prescribed punishment for apostasy is also death. It’s just that there aren’t any Christian theocracies enforcing that at the moment, but there have been (heard of the Inquisition?), and if Hagee and Robertson et al have their way, I will be heading for the hills before they get a chance to kill me.

  40. Fatemeh wrote:

    LOL @ Joseph!

  41. Korolev wrote:

    I still believe Obama can win. A large percentage of the US population (for some strange reason) don’t often vote, and I really believe that Obama and his campaign have a chance at motivating these “apathetic” voters.

    Remember, it’s not over until it’s over. Nobody thought that Truman would beat Dewy, but he did. And I do think that Obama can beat McCain. Obama and his team have been great at getting his message out. I know that in the lead up to the election, his name will be smeared to all end by racists and republicans, but if he mounts a successful defense, he can still win. The main problem with Obama is that he is not forceful enough when denouncing the bogus claims against him. Whenever he goes on air to renounce the smears, he’s very polite and soft-spoken, and his team doesn’t do enough to counter the lies being spread about him.

    If he fixes up that small flaw in his campaign, I think he’ll win.

  42. Celeste wrote:

    @jd, Duly noted but to be fair Deuteronomy is in the the old testament and you’ll find a lot of hardline stuff in there that was revised by the new testatment. Not to say that there aren’t plenty of Christians who incorporate some of the stricter “old school” teachings into their fatih, there are just as many if not more who focus more on the New Testament nowadays.

  43. Abu Sinan wrote:

    Celeste,

    Many Muslims would claim that there are portions of The Qur’an and Sunnah that mute the more strict portions.

    Besides, there is a very Christian arugment that the “Old Testament” is NOT to be discarded.

    Jesus said “Not one jot or tittle of the old law shall change until eart and heaven come to pass”.

    Unless earth and heaven have come to pass, I take that as Jesus saying Christians are still bound by the “old” law.

    As someone who was raised Christian, I can tell you a lot of Christians think this way as well.

    “Mrs Four”

    Your posts here and on your blog make it clear that you have an issue with Islam and with Muslims and have a serious problem telling the difference between religious practices and nation/state laws.

    I dont see anyone denying racism in Egypt, of course it is there. What we do deny is that Islam is the reason for the racism or that Egypt, as a Muslim country, is unique in Africa for it’s racism. Egypt is NOT unique for it’s racism in Africa, nor are Muslims. As a matter of fact you’ll find that Muslim houses and communities were some of the only safe havens for the victims of genocide in Rwanda. So much so that Islam is now the fastest growing religion in Rwanda. They saw how established Christian churches failed them in their time of need. Sad to say, but more than a few Catholic nuns and priests were involved actively in the genocide in that country and several have been tried and convicted for it.

    Sub Saharans certainly would get called names in Egypt. Egyptians are made fun of in Sudan. Try being a Tutsi in Rwanda, a Hutu in parts of Congo. Racism and tribalism are an engrained part of African culture and have been long before Islam came to this world. I think what most people here object to is your sometimes open, sometimes latent, tactic of trying to blame the racism on Islam and Muslims. It is clear racism is a MAJOR problem in Sub Saharan African countries were the Muslim community is small or almost non existant.

    It is rather clear that you have blinders on concerning this subject and wish to only acknowledge only your point of view or those that agree with you. Do you deny that Sub Saharan African has a MAJOR issue with race, ethnicity and tribalism? If so, I guess you have missed the millions killed in Congo, with nare a Muslim in site. I guess you missed Rwanda where the only safe havens from the ethnic/tribal groups slaughtered each other was in MUSLIM houses, homes and businesses?

    Again, if you doubt there is an issue, even an obsession with skin colour in Africa it would seem you do not get out much or read much. If you deny that light skin colour often gets one better positions and pay in Africa, again you seem to have buried your head in the sand.

    We can argue about why these FACTS exist, but it would be a waste of time to argue over their existance.

    We have more than broadened out this subject to an international scope, we could jsut do without your blatant sectarianism. For all of your complaints about racism, I certainly hope you are not teaching your children the hate you are displaying here.

  44. Celeste wrote:

    @ Abu Sinan: that blurb aside, a lot of Christians don’t approach their religion that way. There were plenty of other statements Jesus made and things that he did that went against earlier more heavy handed scripture.

  45. Celeste wrote:

    @ Abu Sinan: “For all of your complaints about racism, I certainly hope you are not teaching your children the hate you are displaying here.”

    -Where’s the hate that Ms. Four displayed? I had followed most if not all the posts on this site dealing with Islam but I haven’t noted any of her statements as hateful. It’s definetly possible that I missed her hateful comments so please point them out to me. From where I stand what you said was really mean and uncalled for if she didn’t say anything hateful.
    There seems to be a fairly consistent pattern above average level of rhetoric with the posts re: Islam and its really unsettling. I don’t think there’s anything so intrinsically more contreversial about these conversations compared with other posts. Have others noticed this or is it just me?

  46. Ms. Four wrote:

    Abu, your comment that my blog is anti-Islamic is baffling. Are you talking about the post where I muse on how lovely it is to see people enjoy iftar? http://egypt4.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/iftar/

    Or the one where I talk about the loveliness of the early morning call to prayer? http://egypt4.wordpress.com/2007/11/18/early-morning-sounds/

    Or the one where I talk about being a foreigner in a Muslim country and how tolerant people are here to most Americans and how I enjoy seeing people praying in public:
    http://egypt4.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/more-answers-on-infidelity/

    Or perhaps the majority of my posts about my kids and my puppy and our trips around Egypt?

    And indeed, I have been told on Racialicious that I don’t understand Egyptian racism:
    http://www.racialicious.com/2008/04/07/where-have-all-the-manners-gone/

    I don’t have a problem with Islam or Muslims. I have never said Islam is racist. Why do I know I haven’t said this? Because I have no idea if Islam is racist. Frankly, I have never thought about it. I think about Egyptians, who are mostly Muslim, but who are also Coptic Christian.

    Anyway, your comments here are simply baffling, particularly this one:

    “I think what most people here object to is your sometimes open, sometimes latent, tactic of trying to blame the racism on Islam and Muslims.”

    You need to show me where I’ve done this, because I’m pretty sure I haven’t. In fact, I always make a distinction between Egypt and Islam and I know very well they are not the same thing.

    I’m very aware there is a lot of tribalism in Africa (much of it a result of colonialism). But I’m focusing here on the racism my Ethiopian-born children face here in Egypt. That’s it.

  47. Abu Sinan wrote:

    Ms Four,

    If you cannot see your trend of relating Islam and Muslims with racism then I dont think anyone can help you see it. Most people who racist or sectarian will insist they are not.

    Your posts about iftar are nice, I am sure Farakhan has Jewish friends as well.

    What you say and what you infer are two seperate things.

    You focus on Muslims and Islamic society show a bias as well.

    Ethiopian born children? Care to tell us how Eritreans are treated in Ethiopia? How about the treatment of the Somalis by Ethiopians?

    It is rather clear you’d rather focus on one area because it is more convenient.

    We have already said there is racism in Egypt, care to deal with the treatment of people in Ethiopia?

    You said you wanted to bring a more international flavour to this discussion, lets do so and deal on a more general level with racism. Lets not spend too much time on one country, one one religion, lets expand.

    So how are Muslim Somalis treated in mainly Christian Ethiopia?

    When one area, country or religion is centered on in any such discussion is when it is easy to see people’s prejudices coming out.

    Can we deal for awhile on the racism and sectarianism that Muslims face in Ethiopia?

    This is hardly an issue where one country can be pin pointed as being worse than others.

    Your grasping onto Egypt solely shows a distinct prejudice.

    Celeste,

    You say “There seems to be a fairly consistent pattern above average level of rhetoric with the posts re: Islam and its really unsettling.”

    Let me guess, a vast Muslim backed conspiracy? Or manybe it is because Muslims and Islam are one of the few people and religions it is still okay to discriminate against.

    If you are NOT speaking loudly against it then you are doing something wrong.

    Heck, many West Virginians touted the POSSIBILITY of Obama being a Muslim as a reason not to vote for him.

    Do people get up in arms when the bigots, those self proclaimed and those who are “soft bigots” talk about Islam? You bet, and they should.

  48. Ms. Four wrote:

    Ay yi yi. I’m pretty aware of atrocities in Ethiopia, in Somalia, in Sudan, in Egypt… and indeed, I’d love to see posts here at Racialicious about sub-Saharan Africa.

    I’m “grasping” onto Egypt because I live here! And that’s it for me and this now ridiculous non-conversation.

  49. Celeste wrote:

    @ Abu Sinan: I didn’t notice an example of Ms. Four’s hateful comments in what you just posted. What I am referring to is the difference between insulting someone your’e disagreeing with and disagreeing with them while not calling their comments hateful when they are not. I don’t think it’s a muslim conspiracy. Islam and many islamic people are being treated really unfairly now. I think a lot of the anger and hatred directed at the US (not the only muslim-mistreating country but probably the worst right now) is justified and has a lot to do with chickens and roosting. You don’t have to prove your case on that point.
    I just don’t think any increased understanding is brought about by calling someone hateful when they dont’ deserve it. Can you give one example of a post on this site where someone hurling a too-harsh exaggerated insult actually helped the discussion? What are you going to say when there’s some actual hate being posted?

  50. Sewere wrote:

    Just zipping through the comments, I picked this up.

    Racism and tribalism are an engrained part of African culture and have been long before Islam came to this world.

    @ Abu Sinan. No, this is similar to the argument about different tribes hating each other for centuries. Folks have been and living side by side for centuries. There has certainly been ethnic strife* however, racism is a by-product of colonialism (European and Arab).

    * Tribalism is a misnomer because it often misrepresents what is happening, for example Yoruba Ijebus have warred and traded with Yoruba Egbas even though they are the same both Yorbas of the Ogun River area.

  51. queerhapa wrote:

    i don’t really get all the antagonism directed at ms. four either. um, moderators?

    on topic, yesterday the NYTimes printed a number of letters discrediting Luttwak’s op-ed.

  52. jd wrote:

    Celeste - agreed, it’s not a point most congregations stress. my point, though, is that it is part of the heritage of christian religious LAW. If you look back in history to times and places where the secular law was determined by christian religious leadership you see executions for apostates (that’s part of the crime of being a witch, for example. you’ve turned your back on Jesus to side with the Devil).

    Even today, those pastors who want political authority to rest on a biblical foundation (Hagee, Robertson, Falwell before he died) tend to be hard-liners heavy on the smiting. I would truly be afraid for my life in a theocracy run by those guys.

  53. Anonymous wrote:

    @ Abu Sinan I’m amazed that on a site that is alert to racism, that very few people have called you out on your statements! First and for most you can not reduce the problems that have existed in Africa to tribalism. It is obvious what little you know about the various histories that have existed in different regions of Africa.

    Second
    “We can argue about why these FACTS exist, but it would be a waste of time to argue over their existence.” -Thank you for completely reducing the history and legacy of oppressed people to absolutely nothing.
    What’s the need for a site like racialicious? Why bother to link the history of oppression in the US or other parts of the world to what is happening in various environments today, if the WHY is not important?

    You cannot solve a disease without knowing what causes it! Why must always be asked!
    You can not learn to prevent genocide, oppression, and discrimination,
    without understanding the history and legacy behind world issues!

    Your examples of Ethiopia, and Somalia, and Eritrea, can also be reversed.
    How these people are treated cannot be discussed without asking why, they are treated that way!

    It amazes me how quick you are to jump at defending Islam and Muslims, as if humans, and religions are perfect. No religion is free for critique, or questioning, and none should be! As Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism and other world religions have been oppressive, so has Islam. As Christians, Jews, Hindus,and people of other faiths have oppressed others, so have Muslims. No matter how much you may wish that is not true you cannot change that fact. All religions are man made so they are flawed, Islam is no different.

    I have noticed the bias in the posts that exist on the post concerning Muslims and Islam.
    And it is very disturbing to me how anyone could think that any religion can not be oppressive or how religious people cannot be oppressors.

    @ Celeste,

    You say “There seems to be a fairly consistent pattern above average level of rhetoric with the posts re: Islam and its really unsettling.” - I agree 100%

  54. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    *is thinking*

  55. Celeste wrote:

    @Anonymous- I completely & totally agree with your post.
    @jd- I guess I didn’t get your point originally. Yes, if you take a look back at when hardline Christian theocracy was running the show and yes, it was all the way live! That would have been horrible to live under and they definetely would have more than a few reasons to burn me alive, too. If it were possible to tally the # of people killed for religious dogma among the Abrahamic faiths, I think Christianity would definetely make a showing.
    @Latoya- I was trying to bring your attention to what I’ve been noticing but I didn’t have the nerve to just address it to you directly.

  56. Anonymous wrote:

    * sorry my computer sems to be messing up my post. It should say, “No religion is free from critique, or questioning, and none should be!”

  57. Joseph wrote:

    Without commenting on the specific points raised by Abu Sinan and Ms. Four in their various posts I’d like to make a general observation: I am instantly suspicious of arguments like those made above by “Anonymous”and enthusiastically seconded by Celeste. While it is entirely true that Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism AND Islam all have oppressive stories in their backgrounds there is no question that in the West the disproportionate focus is on Islam, to the exclusion of the others. Islam is under perpetual attack from all quarters in the west, from the right AND left, including among people who consider themselves to be racially sensitive. So passionate, liberal-ish statements like “No religion should be free from critique, or questioning, and none should be!” are well and truly disingenuous if they don’t take that into account.

    I have to wonder what is intended by saying there is an “above average level of rhetoric” in posts regarding Islam? Is there an acceptable percentage I am unaware of that is being exceeded? At what point does such excess become “really unsettling”? If you are “unsettled” by posters who question your attitude toward Islam then, respectfully, I would suggest you take a good look at that.

    Speaking for myself, I am unsettled by the implication there should be a limit placed on posts that highlight perceived anti-Islamic biases. I have been on lists where posters have hijacked threads with hateful commentary: while I may not agree with him on every point I do not think Abu Sinan crossed that line.

  58. Celeste wrote:

    @ Joseph: I did concede the point in #49 that Islam is receiving a lot of flack from a lot of places right now. I don’t ignore that fact. That doesn’t give me a free pass to then just say whatever I like with impunity but it’s something I keep in mind.
    What I mean about “above average rhetoric” is that compared with posts on other subjects on this site. The posts re: Islam seem to result in more too harsh/exaggerated insults being directed at other commentors than in other conversations.
    The articles themselves don’t start off with an above average bias IMO, yet for some reason, the commentary gets adversarial much more quickly and I don’t think the vitriol is called for in many to most of the cases. I should have been mroe clear initially about the distinction between the post and the commentary. It’s the commentary that gets rowdy. In this instance I don’t think Ms. Four has been hateful, yet she she was called that.
    When did I say I was unsettled by questioning my attitudes about Islam? I’m unsettled by uncalled-for meaness. I don’t think the term “hateful” should be applied unless there’s some hate afoot.
    Ms. Four’s comments did not hijack the thread IMO but I do think it crosses the line to call her comments hateful when they’re not. Unless someone can show me a post she’s made on this site where’s she’s been hateful.

  59. Joseph wrote:

    @ Celeste
    Perhaps the reason posts regarding Islam become heated is because of the current political situation in which Muslims (and Arabs, whether we are Muslims or not) are forced to deal with as much hateful subtext from the western left as the right. I haven’t participated in other such threads on this site and I am unfamiliar with Ms. Four and Abu Sinan outside of the context of this conversation so I can’t say if that is a factor in their conversation or not. They can speak for themselves.

    While I am new around here I am confident that if posts–about anything at all– get out of hand Latoya will shut them down. Aren’t you? So I am still not sure why it is necessary to focus on Islam in this context? I would have found your comments more honest if you (or “anonymous”) had just come out and said “I disagree” or “I am uncomfortable because of x-y-z” and taken responsibility for your feelings instead of projecting some unspecific threat onto Abu Sinan. That feels familiar, and not in a good way: Muslim/Arab/ “dark” man takes exception, gets upset, expresses it and suddenly the threat level rises…and the authorities need to be alerted. Why? You disagreed with Abu Sinan. Okay. Isn’t that enough? Why is it necessary to run and get the moderator? As long as he follows the rules of the road he is entitled to his opinion, even if you disagree with him. And if he (or anyone) doesn’t play by the rules the moderator will deal with it.

    The entire premise of your argument is that Ms. Four wasn’t being “hateful.” Frankly that is not your call to make. There is no objective standard for taking offense to what someone has said (or intimated)–especially when we are discussing the difficult intersections between race and religious faith. If you didn’t note any bias in Ms. Four’s comments then no one is stopping you from saying so. Post away. But Abu Sinan did. And, I’ll be frank with you, calling for the moderator to silence him (as you and others have done) makes me really angry.

    Oh heavens. Now I have done it. I’ve been hiding behind my expensive education so well and I’ve made the mistake of admitting that I’m angry. I wonder what will happen to me now?

  60. JDsg wrote:

    Joseph: I think Celeste’s problem is that you have a couple of unapologetic Muslims making comments here who are bright, articulate, and don’t buy into Celeste’s line (e.g., Islam “must” be a man-made religion like all the others; therefore, it must be oppressive as well). And that scares a lot of non-Muslims.

    That feels familiar, and not in a good way: Muslim/Arab/ “dark” man takes exception, gets upset, expresses it and suddenly the threat level rises…

    The irony is that neither Abu Sinan nor myself (I’m a Muslim as well) are “dark” men nor Arab; we’re both white American Muslim men. What’s so threatening about that? ;)

    Mod Note:
    Tag. We’re getting into personal attack territory. Argue your points, don’t make digs based on assumptions.

  61. JDsg wrote:

    I apologize if I offended or if anyone thought I was trying to make a personal attack. I didn’t intend to do so nor did I think I was doing so. I did think I was commenting on the situation presented by Celeste in #45 and agreed with by Anonymous in #53.

  62. Celeste wrote:

    @Joseph: Your post attributes many ideas and feelings to me that I haven’t expressed on my posts. I’m not sure what that supposed to accomplish. Also, what I said is based on a context of what happens on this site. You admit yourself that you’re unfamiliar with that context. Why not go back and look through the previous posts to see if my points are vaild before making a long post about a lot of things that I didn’t say.
    “Muslim/Arab/ “dark” man ” ….ummm right. Abu Sinan’s points weren’t altogether that threatening to me. Angry, especially of the righteous variety, doesn’t bother me. What bothers me is that that the points, even the valid ones are followed by an above average number of personal attacks. Maybe it’s just me but I don’t throw the h-bombs around willy nilly.

  63. Celeste wrote:

    One more thing. I have noticed bias in some of Ms. Four’s post but bias doesn’t equal hate.

  64. Celeste wrote:

    @JG:
    Anon said: “All religions are man made so they are flawed, Islam is no different.” As I said, I agree with that but I can understand how you can disagree with that statement by itself. People ’s feeling differ on how much of the divine nature of religion is polluted by the people.

    “As Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism and other world religions have been oppressive, so has Islam. ” I think it’s hard to dispute that statement. Also note that the term used is “have”, indicating that these things have occured at one point in time, not that they always or will always occur.

    To meld the 2 statements into a distortion the what they actually mean isn’t accuate or fair:
    e.g., Islam “must” be a man-made religion like all the others; therefore, it must be oppressive as well.
    Must does not equal have. There’s plenty you could disagree with in the discussion without distorting the actual ideas and then disagreeing with your creations.

  65. Celeste wrote:

    Oops I meant @ JDsg:

  66. Joseph wrote:

    Hm.

    So JDsg’s post at #60 merits a mod tag and Celeste’s post at #62 doesn’t.

    Interesting.

  67. Celeste wrote:

    @Joseph: why do you think my #62 warrants a mod tag? I’m not being sarcastic at all in my request, I’d just like to know for future reference.

  68. atlasien wrote:

    @Joseph: JDsg #60 was basically saying that Celeste was scared of dark men. Since she’s black (I think) that’s a REALLY major insult, especially coming from someone who says they’re white. She did not insult anyone else equivalently; her noting that there are personal attacks going on in this thread is NOT the same thing as saying “I believe you are an angry person because of your religion”. She did not say that. You can take it to imply that that’s what she meant, but she certainly didn’t say it.

  69. Joseph wrote:

    @ atlasien
    I have read and enjoyed your smart, funny posts elsewhere. (Oppression: The Gathering still makes me laugh) but…can you understand that it might be perceived as patronizing for you to grant me permission to “take” Celeste’s comments any way I want? And then proffer an “official” version of what she “really” means–essentially telling me I can be as wrong as I want to be.

    I know exactly what Celeste has said. I have been following the line of her argument very closely. Can you understand if, because of my experience, I am picking something up in her arguments that perhaps you aren’t? Arguably not something she consciously intends but which nevertheless has an effect? Ever opened the fridge and–even though everything looks perfectly fine–you catch a whiff of something just a little…off?

    When a poster attempts to curtail comments by Muslims…on a thread that is about how Islam is misunderstood for Pete’s sake…my ears perk up. The site is called “Racialicious” not “Celeste’s Racialicious.” If she wants to speak for herself she should go right ahead. But policing the site? No. That is all I was/am saying. And, given the context, it is perfectly reasonable to question why she would do that. So I did.

  70. JDsg wrote:

    @ Atlasien: Since she’s black (I think) that’s a REALLY major insult…

    You assume that I knew Celeste was black; I did not know this until you mentioned it in your comment. I’m not worried about any racial issue here; I’m concerned about how a few comments by less than a handful of Muslims can be conflated into an “above average level of rhetoric.”

  71. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @JDsg - See what happens when we assume? Not very fun, is it? That’s why I stuck a mod note on your last comment - you veered into assumption territory and stopped attacking the line of argument.

    @All -

    Okay y’all, I am tabling this discussion until Monday afternoon.

    You can air your grievances on the “The Trouble With Posting” thread.

    I am not accepting any more comments on this post.

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