The “Or” versus the “And” - Women of Color and Mainstream Feminism

by Latoya Peterson

Over at Feministing, there was a nice discussion about a click moment - the moment when you realize that you began to identify as a feminist.

It occurs to me that I have only discussed half of my own personal click moment. I mentioned that it was the Spice Girls that made me identify as a feminist, but it wasn’t their personalities or their music that pushed me toward feminism.

The catalyst for my click moment was actually a knock-off tee shirt. Riding the girl power wave of the late-nineties, a lot of the cheap teen clothing stores were filled with branded tee-shirts. I had one that read in big silver lettering “Girl Power.” I remember wearing the shirt out one day, and having a guy friend walk up to me and pause to read the shirt.

“Girl power?” he said with a smirk, “What the fuck is that supposed to mean?” He walked away laughing. After that day, I never wore that shirt again, but I stayed thinking about that moment for years afterward.

Why would the concept of girl power be so ridiculous that it was laughable?

That was the moment that started the shift in thinking. Why did so many men mock the idea of women having power, or get upset when women stood up for themselves? A few years later, I found feminism and thought I found my long lost community.

Little did I know that finding feminism was also the beginning of the anti-click moments, dozens of little conversations and actions that served as a constant reminder that I was different. Reading anthology after anthology on contemporary feminist work and only hearing one or two tokenized voices from women of color. Attending feminist gatherings and realizing that a lot of the situations and scenarios discussed were things I had never experienced. Trying to articulate my experiences, and being told that we need to focus on the “real” feminist issues. Things that impact “all” (read: white) women.

I possess both a gender identity and a racial identity and feminists weren’t having that, not one little bit.

At first, I thought if I could just find the right area, things would be different. Maybe it was just the feminist girls at my high school that were fucked up and racist - when I got to college, it would be different. I got to college and the triple-whammy of elitism, racism, and classism kept me out of organized feminism. Then, I decided to do my own thing and just read but a lot of the books on feminism where from one limited perspective. There was no me in this feminism.

However, there was a me in anti-racist work. So I worked on that, discussed gender outside the contexts of feminist theory, found more books on the experiences of women of color, fell in love with Joan Morgan’s When Chickenheads Come Home to Roost, challenged my male friends on their ideas about the place of women and did what I did best - live.

For you see, for me, feminism was not about theory and academia - it was about being able to explain the things that wore heavily on my mind. I didn’t have the words to express certain concepts and feminism gave me those words. With those words came the ability to speak truth and seek to banish those things that continue to do untold damage to young black women every day. But those words also came with a price. The gatekeepers of those words asked me to ignore my issues and align with theirs. The gatekeepers of those words have absolutely no concept of the idea that my responsibility to my community and my responsibility to my gender are equal in my mind - I cannot put one away in favor of the other. The men in my community are my allies - our stories are intertwined. Even if some of them are in the wrong, I cannot leave them out of the conversation. The stakes are too high.

And yet, feminism continued to hold some appeal. Donna Darko sums it up best:

Since I was a teenager, I noticed APIA women did not speak out against sexism of APIA men. They were in denial or made excuses. I noticed this in college, too, among women of color.

Women of color are a hundred times more likely to condone or enable the sexism of men of color than they are to condone or enable the racism of whites. In other words, women of color are a hundred times more likely to speak out against racism than they are to speak out against the sexism of men of color even though most rape and domestic violence occurs within the community. You see this pattern in real life and online.

Today is the perfect example. How many women of color do you think turned up for the huge Jena Six/Hate Crimes march on DC today compared to the protest for crimes against women of color? (Details and commentary on both protests below.) You can bet your life there were at least a hundred times more women of color at the first protest than at the second. You can also bet your life there were at least a hundred times more women of color at the Jena Six protest in Jena, Louisiana than at the Megan Williams protest in Charleston, West Virginia.

Women of color are not immune to sexism.

Our brown skin does not act as a protective barrier against sexual assault and physical abuse.

And far too often, the ingrained ideas of allegiance to men of color stop us from speaking up about our experiences and our pain - even when it means we suffer alone.

We deal with this daily too. Feminism should be a haven for us, but it fails to understand that there are multiple issues at work. I can’t step out of my skin in order to deal with feminism. I don’t have that luxury.

So, where in feminism can I fit?

Maybe womanism. Maybe just doing my work and not joining a movement at all.

Perhaps a different form of feminism. Donna thoughtfully provides a link to Women of Color Feminism, in this case, the Combahee River Collective Statement.

An excerpt:

[…] We believe that the most profound and potentially the most radical politics come directly out of our own identity, as opposed to working to end somebody else’s oppression. In the case of black women this is a particularly repugnant, dangerous, threatening, and therefore revolutionary concept because it is obvious from looking at all the political movements that have preceded us that anyone is more worthy of liberation than ourselves. We reject pedestals, queenhood, and walking ten paces behind. To be recognized as human, levelly human, is enough.

We believe that sexual politics under patriarchy is as pervasive in black women’s lives as are the politics of class and race. We also often find it difficult to separate race from class from sex oppression because in our lives they are most often experienced simultaneously. We know that there is such a thing as racial-sexual oppression which is neither solely racial nor solely sexual, e.g., the history of rape of black women by white men as a weapon of political repression.

Although we are feminists and lesbians, we feel solidarity with progressive black men and do not advocate the fractionalization that white women who are separatists demand. Our situation as black people necessitates that we have solidarity around the fact of race, which white women of course do not need to have with white men, unless it is their negative solidarity as racial oppressors. We struggle together with black men against racism, while we also struggle with black men about sexism. […]

The major source of difficulty in our political work is that we are not just trying to fight oppression on one front or even two, but instead to address a whole range of oppressions. We do not have racial, sexual, heterosexual or class privilege to rely upon, nor do we have even the minimal access to resources and power that groups who possess any one of these types of privilege have.

The psychological toll of being a black woman and the difficulties this presents in reaching political consciousness and doing political work can never be underestimated. There is a very low value placed upon black women’s psyches in this society, which is both racist and sexist. As an early group member once said, “We are all dam-aged people merely by virtue of being black women.” We are dispossessed psychologically and on every other level, and yet we feel the necessity to struggle to change our condition and the condition of all black women. In “A Black Feminist’s Search for Sisterhood,” Michele Wallace arrives at this conclusion:

We exist as women who are black who are feminists, each stranded for the moment, working independently because there is not yet an environment in this society remotely congenial to our struggle—because, being on the bottom, we would have to do what no one else has done: we would have to fight the world.’

(I highly encourage everyone to go and read the rest.)

Somedays, it really does feel like war against the world. The blogosphere is just the latest battleground. I have watched every last thread unfold. I have read every trackback link. I have read every referenced post. I have read through scores of comments. I have gone through every emotion from annoyance to anger to defeat to a sadness so profound I found myself crying at my keyboard.

And I am not even the subject of these debates.
Not by a long shot. I am not even involved. I just witness.

But even in my range of emotions, one thing was not there. One thing was not present: surprise.

How horrible is it to not be surprised? To see the conversation gradually rolling downhill, to know that this is the same conversation that has happened dozens of times, to see the same patterns being repeated, to hear non-allies serve up the same arguments over and over as if they were new, as if they were nothing we heard before.

And then to hear some bullshit call to come together, put the past behind us, and move forward.

Right.

Now, I am sure that some non-allies are confused at this one. They are neutral. They can see both sides. They want everyone to just come together already and fight the real problem, not realizing that their silence is part of the real problem.

I expect that there will be differences feminist narratives, goals, and focus. I expect that we are going to come from different walks in life and different places. On another feminist thread (unrelated to the current controversy), a lot of women referenced Liz Phair’s Exile in Guyville as the album that either made them a feminist or soundtracked their feminism. I’ve never heard this album. The closest thing I can think of to my own feminist anthem is Queen Latifah’s U.N.I.T.Y. - obviously, we are coming from different places.

But I do not expect that I will not be treated as an equal inside a supposedly progressive space. And I do not expect that women of color will have to fight to be shown the same consideration as white bloggers. Where is our benefit of the doubt? Where - as many others have asked - is the consideration for our feelings?

Non-white women are not a monolith.

Women of color feminists are not a monolith.

We do not agree on many topics. We do not all concur on the best course of action. We do not all believe in the same things and we do not all experience intersectionality in the same way.

If I were to say the sky is blue, there are some WoC bloggers who would immediately tell me that I am 110% wrong, the sky is gray and send me a photo via email to prove their position. That’s the way it is.

But, I still find a comfort in knowing they are out there. In knowing where they are. In knowing that we may disagree on everything else, but we both see a sky.

I need to be in the company of women who do not have the luxury of looking past issues that are inconvenient to them.

I need to be in the company of women who understand on a gut level, not an intellectual level, what I am going through. I need people who understand my life, not because they have read and studied and occassionally worked with women like me. I need to know that somewhere, out there, someone just knows.

And I need to be there for them.

I cannot speak for Carmen or Fatemeh or Wendi. I can only speak for myself.

I am not even going to bother addressing the circumstances that lead here. They are widely available in links here and elsewhere.

The issue is much bigger than one incident. It is bigger than three incidents. It is bigger than the blogosphere. It is a pattern of behavior that will be repeated, again and again, probably until I leave this earth.

And I feel it is my responsibility to try to end this, to leave a better world for my children to inherit.

And so it is here, where I will do what ABW has already done - stand in solidarity with my sisters.

Because this cannot continue.

Recommended Reading

Sudy - A Question of Feminism or a “Movement?”
Sylvia/M - Don’t Hate; Reappropriate
Questioning Transphobia - In Light of Appropriation and Race
Grandpa Dinosaur - The Person You Protect
Feministe - (Read this piece for the comments - some real All-Stars were pulling out their best)
A Slant Truth - For My Peeps
PhysioProf - Intellectual Appropriation, Attribution of Credit & Privilege
Aaminah Hernández- Why I Am Not A Feminist or My Anti-Feminist Manifesto

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Feminism: A Race Issue, or More Likely, a Cultural Issue? « Immigration, Assimilation, Ethnicity and All That Jazz on 28 Apr 2008 at 11:25 am

    […] over at Racialicious on race and feminism today, both posted by Latoya. In the first post, called The “Or” versus the “And” - Women of Color and Mainstream Feminism, Latoya starts off talking about a “click moment” in the late 90s, during the height of […]

  2.   Reading for April 26th through April 29th by ripples of hope on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:04 am

    […] Racialicious: The ?Or? versus the ?And? […]

  3. i was a feminist once « She muses on 30 Apr 2008 at 1:08 am

    […] Petersen at Racialicious here and […]

  4. Feminism Friday: When women who advocate for women’s rights reject the label “feminist” « Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog on 01 May 2008 at 1:53 pm

    […] Allies Talking Latoya at Racialicious - The “or” versus the “and”: women of color and mains… ABW: Standing in solidarity with my sisters Sudy - A Question of Feminism or a […]

  5. Blame Canada…Part I: Desi Ladies « Anger is My Motor on 23 Jul 2008 at 4:02 am

    […] Having spent a very eventful few weeks there recently, I just recently got the time to process, and finally got the time to sit my ass down on in front of computer to write about it. I could go on for days about all the crazy mind-bending shit that went down in Canadia. (Hence this being “Part I”). However, I recently began thinking about the subject of women of color and feminism after reading “The Or vs. the And”, a post to the ridiculously awesome blog Racalicious.  […]

  6. What’s a white woman to say? « In a strange land on 25 Jan 2009 at 3:54 am

    […] final words on this, from a WoC in the US, and a South Asian woman in […]

  7. Do mom-bloggers care about anti racist parenting? | Unconventional Origins on 04 Mar 2009 at 11:42 am

    […] their silence about the sexism towards Michelle Obama during the campaign season. Then check out this piece about how feminism in the blogosphere reflects the same race problems of feminism in […]

Comments

  1. PhysioProf wrote:

    Hey, thanks for the link!

    As a man, I don’t think it is useful to call myself a feminist. But my “click moment” occurred when I started reading Twisty Faster’s “I Blame The Patriarchy” blog. Her exceedingly clear and exceedingly persuasive writing just “clicked”: “Holy shit! This shit is totally fucking true! And it totally fucking sucks!”

  2. Elayne Riggs wrote:

    Very similar to what Cheryl Lynn Eaton’s been saying on her Digital Femme blog:

    “After all the apologizing and handwringing is done, we still don’t have a fucking voice. Not really. Men of color are still sought out for their thoughts and opinions concerning race. White women are still looked to for thoughts and opinions concerning gender issues. And those of us sitting in the border zones can only hope that they do a good job speaking for us. Because our stories and our needs and our fears and our dreams are only really listened to through the filter of someone who is not us.

    “And all I can think to do is shout loud enough in the hopes that someone more press or camera friendly (male or white) will take my words and carry them to a place that matters. A place where they can truly be heard and have an impact. And I have allies willing to do that for me. But that is not the norm. Many of us sit here in silence. Or even worse, watch as our words are robbed of their meaning or twisted against us so someone can cash a check.”

  3. TierList E wrote:

    I understand completely how you feel. It’s unfortunate.

    My ‘click’ and ‘anti-click’ moment came almost simultaneously. For a while I was almost completely unaware of feminist issues. I thought things were pretty resolved since I never experienced any negative treatment that feminists often complain of.

    But I have had negative treatment because I was black. Exponentially worse on the Internets when I erred in voicing my non-mainstream opinion, so I became aware of that very early. My eyes were opened to sexism when I found myself on a forum where a woman was voicing her opinion and got a eerily similar response to when I bring up race. I was floored by how little men had progressed in gender tolerance.

    I hoped to throw in my lot with them, but I almost immediately discovered that women will become White women on my same opinions, with the same negative responses. Now I’m in this weird limbo where I don’t want to regularly deal with feminist communities, but I believe I agree with all that they stand for.

    I think feminists need to learn as quickly as possible (if they want to work with WoC that is, *shrug* they may not) that race and gender cannot be separated for most (any?) WoC- the majority of my negative treatment had not been because I was black, or because I was a woman, or not even because I was a Latina or Asian woman, but because I was a Black woman. You can’t race-neutral that.

  4. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    I’d wear a “Girl Power” t-shirt.

    I guess my “click moment” happened in 5th grade when I was supposed to play Ali Baba in a class production. The script called for me to rescue a slave girl, then marry her. The thought made me queasy–perhaps because most girls had cooties then. So my mom helped me rewrite the script so I would simply emancipate the slave girl and NOT marry her.

  5. CuntLovin wrote:

    I don’t remember my click moment, I come from a family of strong strong women who taught me I was a feminist from the day I was born (my Oma’s wisedom for me at age 8, “Never, and I repeat never let a man buy you dinner…) however I remember my anti-click moment…second year university really getting into Trans politics despite not identifying as gender variant myself…and finding a motherload of hate, pure hate, disguised as feminism towards individuals who were gender variant in expression/indentity particularly Transmen…and I just was confused about how one could achieve equality with so much hate.

  6. donna darko wrote:

    Thanks for the link, Latoya!

    And Ubuntu’s link too.

  7. Grandpa Dinosaur wrote:

    XD Thank you for the plug! I really appreciate it!

    Racism is so much of a problem on itself, but with the stress tacked backs of women of colour: sexist traditions, cultures, roles and stereotypes that continue to demean and hold then back.

    White Feminists do not realize that Women of Colour literally fight against Racism and Feminism in a style of guerrilla warfare with no home base, and by silencing and refusing supplies to the most needy women of colour is only going to create a greater fissure between the splintering group. Those who walk away from the the result (if there is no action to repair relations) will mostly be highly anti-feminist, or highly anti-white-feminist.

    Already, I’m still conflicted IF what to tell my reader base and younger dependent women (of colour) to trust (White-)Feminists when I, myself, have such strong feelings of disappointment from being let down?

  8. Sewere wrote:

    ound more books on the experiences of women of color, fell in love with Joan Morgan’s

    I can’t thank you enough for recommending Joan Morgan and changed my perspective on a hip-hop and a lot of the issues that affect black women.

    To answer your question, my click moment came when my mother having to run out of the house in an emergency, left my then 9month old sister with me (then a 10yr old boy), saying, “never let anyone tell you that you’re not supposed to take care of children”

    That was one of many moments that also included teaching us boys how to cook (we are a family of six, 3 boys then 3 girls) telling us “Never let your wives or anyone else tell you that you’re not supposed to cook for your family”.

    All this took place in a conservative Nigerian setting.

  9. Sewere wrote:

    Crap!! Hit post before editing. I meant to add that my click-moment came in a round-about way from my mother.

  10. Slush wrote:

    In the words of a journalist whose name I forget, “Racial insults are class A felonies, while sexist or homophobic slurs are mere parking violations.”

    I quote that not to jump into the melee of the old is-there-more-sexism-or-racism, but to highlight comments I’ve seen a few places - about how women of color feel subject to racism more than sexism.

    My instinct is to explain that experience by saying that racism is less tolerated, and thus felt more strongly by its victims. After all, it’s easier to identify a complaint that is more publicly legitimated. Do folks think that is part of the reason for those sentiments?

  11. Unitari wrote:

    As a middle eastern-american feminist I also struggle with fitting in. and I have had problems connecting with feminists on my campus. But I know that I am a feminist and I choose to define it however I want. I don’t think anybody owns the rights to decide what is feminism.

    But I also feel from my gut that feminism needs to become more mainstream in order for it to be effective, nobody will support a movement whose name is a curse word! (not that I think we need to change feminism, but that whatever it is needs to be accepted by more people)

    I think feminist activism is so little and people are so “clique-ee” that it feels like there is not enough space for all of us! Doesn’t it make more sense if issues of white women, black women, and others all helped one another grow rather than shut one another up? This is so paralyzing. It doesn’t lead to any unified action. I know people are trying and working on things but when I look at the whole country it feels like nothing is getting done :(

    maybe more action will make room for more of us.

  12. helen boyd wrote:

    reading michele wallace was my “click” moment.

  13. TierList E wrote:

    @Slush-

    I kinda disagree with you. In a technical sense yes, blatant racism is less tolerated than blatant sexism. But in (my) reality it doesn’t come out like that.

    What happened when I was called a whore around 7th grade? Absolutely nothing.

    What happened when I was called a porch monkey around 7th grade? . . .Absolutely nothing.

    (Yes those years of my life Sucked!)

    And was I the only one who lived in the world where “Well, you know black people are _insert stereotype here_” was accepted as complete truths, even to other black people?

    Everyday racism and sexism I believe are on an pretty equal footing. And it’s getting harder and harder for society to admit to anything being racist nowadays outside of a Klan rally. So even though there may be more outrage if I gotten murdered by a white guy than if I gotten raped by a black guy, honestly I don’t want to be raped or killed in order to see the results.

  14. Kate wrote:

    Hi all. I’m over from Feministing; this is my first time reading this site. I’ve heard this sentiment many times before, but because I am a white feminist and the feminists I am around are almost exclusively white, I never really understood where it comes from. I’ve heard a lot more of the divide between straight feminists and queer feminists. I have no doubt that this divide exists between feminists of color and white feminists, I don’t really understand. Is it divergent opinions on issues? Is it a dismissal of the racial component in the discrimination women of color face? Is it a complete disregard for others opinons? I’m lost. If anyone can take the time out to explain, I’d really appreciate it.

  15. NancyP wrote:

    White feminist leadership has not been too effective in the past 10 to 20 years. I’ve lived through most of the 2nd and 3rd waves, and frankly I look to the circa 1970-1975 material for real radicalism. We’ve been thinking too small for 25 years!

    We don’t see broad support from the nascent-feminist-in-the-street, because little is done to connect with them. We don’t hear calls for “Reproductive health care is for everyone” - demands for quality free/cheap care for poor women needing birth control, pregnancy and delivery care, cancer screening, and abortion. Demands that the Pill be covered by insurance if Viagra is covered don’t mean much to the uninsured.

    A mark of the mainstream feminist movement is the failure to pass a bill negating the Ledbetter v Goodyear decision, which said that a worker could not sue for discrimination (less pay for the same work) beyond the first 180 days of employment. This is an issue affecting most women.

    Thanks for links.

  16. A wrote:

    Latoya, I think your post will result in a lot of women - and men - experiencing a “click moment” of their own. This was beautiful; thank you.

  17. Torontonian wrote:

    @Slush:

    I’m trying to figure out why I blog more about racism than sexism.

    Part of the reason is that I feel feminism is more mainstream than anti-racism, and there that there are more feminists and women than there are anti-racists and people of colour in the West. I do go into feminist mode in certain situations, such as in geek communities, which seem more sexist than racist (although they are usually both). In most of these situations, people assume I’m a white feminist.

  18. Keke wrote:

    I’ve always wondered why mainstream feminism seeks to delineate itself from any and all other movements. Racism, ageism, sexism and classist ideology center upon the same use of flawed logic and stereotypes. I’ve always found that all systems of oppression work in strikingly similar ways. The moment when I realized this, I had my own “click” moment. I wanted to seek others who shared this philosophy.

    What I got was “Well, you’ve got to choose. Either you want women’s rights, civil rights or more economic opportunities for the poor. You can’t have it all.” Yet, I felt this is precisely the kind of divisive mentality that many in the dominant culture want to foster between all of us. United we might stand a chance, but divided, well–we point fingers, try to play the “who has it the worst game” and in the end, no one really wins.

    I think no one in mainstream feminism wants to come out and say what’s really going on. Often it is race that often hinders a person regardless of sex. Yet, sometimes class hinders people regardless of race and sex, and sometimes sex hinders someone regardless of class and sometime there’s a combination of all three factors. Studying how these relationships interconnect work to the benefit of all and not a few. That’s what I usually get from mainstream feminism that they want equal rights, but based upon the flawed, racist and elitist principles that already exist.

  19. AC wrote:

    @ Slush, like Latoya and TierListE I really cannot separate it and weigh it, is it more racism or sexism? It’s both, it’s an odd kind of race-sex-ism (or sex-race-ism if you prefer) that only woc seem to experience, joy joy.

    As an example, in school we studied a class action case against one of the car companies, Ford I think, where black women bought suit for discrimination. See Ford would not hire a single black woman, not one. They hired black men and they hired white women but as big a company, a plant as they were - not a single black woman. The supreme court ruled that did not violate the civil rights act.

    See we are protected as women, and we are protected as black, but we are not protected as black women. Since Ford has white women employees and black male employees there was “no” legally actionable discrimination found on the part of Ford. We black women, and by extension, all women of color, do not exist from a legally protectable standpoint.

    This is a problem because I can guarantee you there is ish that goes down in my life because I am a BLACK WOMAN. Not because I am a woman, not because I am racially identifiable as black, but because I am a black woman. Now is it special, is it more ish than others? Do I think my suffering more worthy than others? No. It’s different, but it isn’t worth less, or more.

    As to the unknown journalist? They are wrong. Racial insults are not class A felonies. Hate crimes like cross burning or hurting or killing me because of my race are felonies. People of color suffer the same indignities as all women and as the entire LGBT community when it comes to insults and slurs and to say differently is just so much more “oppression olympics” . I’m not interested in competing for the Gold here. All this jostling for position among us is so dang frustrating and seems counter-productive. In theory, our communites have SO much more in common, including people, than differences - why doesn’t that play out in the real world? Perhaps because those of us within all these bi-secting and intersecting communites cannot acknowledge that we are ALL equal. And that’s really pretty damn depressing, that even here amongst the other oppressed we cling to the need to be superior to someone, anyone.

  20. donna darko wrote:

    I’ve always wondered why mainstream feminism seeks to delineate itself from any and all other movements.

    Each movement does this. Anti-racism, the white progressive movement/the Left, anti-war, immigration reform. Wouldn’t it be great if the Left were really left? If it lived up to its name? Then we wouldn’t be splintered into feminist, anti-racist, GLBT, union, immigration movements.

  21. jvansteppes wrote:

    I had a huge ‘anti-click’ moment when I read Robin Morgan’s Hillary Clinton article about how sexism is more universal than racism.

    I also have a hard time believing anyone who tells me that blatant sexism or homophobia are worse than blatant racism in the age of Borat. Other white queers make this argument to me all the time while ignoring the fact that mainstream GLB [I remove the T because gay communities aren’t usually transfriendly enough to warrant its inclusion] institutions are racist beyond belief.

  22. lm wrote:

    “That’s what I usually get from mainstream feminism that they want equal rights, but based upon the flawed, racist and elitist principles that already exist.”

    I’ve seen it put more brutally, if succinctly — that white feminist women who are blind to their own privilege really want to be white men.

    With their own attendant power to marginalize by race and class.

    Slush, since I’ve heard this — as Keke puts it — divisive statement from both black men AND white women

    ““Well, you’ve got to choose. Either you want women’s rights, civil rights or more economic opportunities for the poor. You can’t have it all.”

    I wouldn’t say that racism is more pervasive than sexism. It depends on whom you ask, and in what circles they’re running.

    I was having this discussion with someone today, about the lack of empathy of oppressed people for other people who are equally, or more, oppressed.

    Progressives have a much more difficult struggle, I think, as far as policy platforms go, because they are a heterogeneous group. Conservatives tend to be much more homogenous (the radical right notwithstanding). I’m not sure there’s going to be that much progress in eradicating oppression if various “players” in oppressed populations are still clinging to conservative agendas of personal power and privilege (disguised as the good old Horatio Alger myth) and put those ahead of the health of all the citizens in their communities. The ethnicities — as a whole — that seem to have made the most progress for equality and security for their groups are the ones that seem to have figured this out already.

  23. Anne wrote:

    Ha, love it! My click moment came when I shaved my head and was fired from my job for it, although 99% of the males had shaved heads. Of course, my philosophy of feminism class the previous semester may have planted the seed. Nice post.

  24. misssamuel wrote:

    Thanks so much for this post. I actually woke up this morning pondering the same topic!

    I’ve read only half of the post because I’m in between classes at the moment; but consider this site as a part of my blogroll! =)

  25. Slush wrote:

    1. This is a great blog. I learn so much from all of you. And thanks for the responses to my question! This thread and the other one about the feminist movement have brought out such clear articulations of how different is the experience of women of color from that articulated by white feminists. Re: the Ford example, which goes very well with Latoya’s comments about getting coffee and all - do you think that means black women should be a separate protected class? Obviously legalistic solutions like that won’t resolve the whole world of social ills, but it’s kind of an interesting question. Would Latina women then be a different class?

    Does that mean that facing different racial/sexual expectations and stereotypes requires its own movement? I would think: (a) no, because of course versions of racism or sexism affect every individual differently, as well as each ethnic group, but we’ve got to find some unity somewhere; but (b) yes, because maybe the differences are categorizable enough to be distinguished, and that identification and distinction is necessary to make progress….

    2. I think the journalist I was quoting was talking about the mainstream reaction to racism v. sexism, not the victim’s reaction. Typical, right - that’s how these things most often get analyzed: from the dominant perspective. He’s saying that public racism will get lambasted more readily than public sexism. (Hey, I found the whole article - and to be fair it’s mainly about racism v. homophobia, not sexism, to the extent those are separate. It’s also very short and pithy: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/03/948/)

    But I don’t necessarily agree with everything he says, I just thought it was interesting and worth thinking about. Especially in the context of women of color choosing to identifying more with men of color than white women, in terms of political movements and whatever. So it seemed to me that his articulation might be part of what shapes that. Most folks responding don’t seem to think so, although I’ll admit I am still unsure about it.

  26. Carrie wrote:

    Hi, I’m a first time commenter here.
    So I’m a white girl, and I call myself a feminist. I want to share my click moment about being a feminist and being an ally for people of color.

    Sexism: I kinda always bought into the idea that sexism pervades our lives, but the first time I understood how my life had been limited by it was when I got dumped by a guy I’d dated for four years. I had moved around the country for him, I had cleaned up after him, I had insisted on paying half of household expenses despite earning way less money, and when the time came for him to move for my career, he jumped ship. I realized that I had sacrificed a lot without getting mutual support from him, and I had a lot less money at my disposal because of it. That’s when I got serious about feminism.

    Racism: I rear-ended a minivan in my parent’s neighborhood in Cleveland. It was completely my fault (luckily, there was no damage to the minivan or the people in it). The cops came, they were super flirty with me, and one asked me where I was headed. I told him my parent’s street, and he asked, “Why do they live there? That’s a shitty street. The blacks are taking over.”

    I should’ve gotten arrested. I should’ve said, “Who the fuck do you think you are saying that racist bullshit?” and gotten arrested. And instead I betrayed my neighbors and smiled blankly while he walked away.

    The black people living in my parent’s neighborhood are living there knowing that the police don’t want them there. They live with that hostility day in and day out. I’ve been cajoled into accepting a shittier version of middle class by the men in my life, but police always smile at me.

    I’m a white middle class feminist who has been a shithead about race. Of course sexism and racism are related, but the stuff I don’t have to deal with because of my pigmentation is so much more violent and coercive and scary.

    But here’s where people like me need to grow: I do have to deal with it. I need to tackle racism despite it always working in my favor, because when I slide through racist situations I’m becoming a person I can’t be proud of. I need to be less attached to things being easy for me and take on some of the burdens people of color are forced to take on, like hostile police.

    So if women of color feel betrayed by white feminists, you have been and we need to do some serious growing. And you should do whatever you need to to sustain your activism, whether it’s disaffiliating yourself from feminism or reclaiming it- any strategy that keeps you going. I’m really sorry we are not the allies we need to be. I’m working on myself, and I think a lot of other white feminists are trying too.

  27. Jen wrote:

    Carrie, I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story. I’m a WoC who has been pretty frustrated with mainstream feminism and I am feeling every bit as ambivalent about it as Latoya is in her post. I’ve enjoyed reading this thread because rather than getting defensive and talking past one another, the responses have been really heartfelt and open. I don’t agree with everyone, but I can really see where people are coming from.

    Going back to Carrie’s post, I wanted to share a story of my own. The other day, two black men stopped me for directions. They were very friendly (and I’m not gonna lie, attractive) and we chatted for a minute. Then, asking about the neighborhood (known for having a lot of gay men), one of them said, “We were told to avoid this neighborhood…” He didn’t want to say it, but I finished the sentence for him. Instead of really confronting them, I scolded them rather lightly, just saying something like “What’s wrong with that?” I’m not sure why I didn’t say more, because they were black like me? Because I didn’t want to change from the lighthearted tone? Because they were attractive? Because I didn’t want to make anyone uncomfortable? Because being a straight woman, I felt less invested? I can’t really say.

    My point is, when we talk about all of these intersections, there’s not a totem pole, and there’s not just black or white. Mainstream feminism needs to stop discounting the diverse spectrum of experiences not just because it’s wrong, but also because it weakens the movement. We need a feminism that can handle the complexity of stores like Carrie’s and mine; that acknowledges the influences of class, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. It makes things messier, but that’s because our lives are messy and complicated. It’s not easy to find that you’re simultaneously privileged and disadvantaged. However, I’d like to think that being in that position can make us more empathetic to the plights of others. That’s what feminism would like for me at least.

  28. donna darko wrote:

    Racism is less acceptable than sexism because racism affects men. Look at this election. Sexism is pretty constant but gets a pass. Every racist incident is covered by the mainstream media and blogs. Feminist bloggers have to cover the sexism.

    When I read Rebecca Walker’s To Be Real (1995) I thought it was too open-ended and ambiguous but I wish the third wave took it to heart. There’s something for everyone, the pro-sex, trans, sexuality, race, generational differences…How can you go wrong with a forward by Gloria Steinem and afterword by Angela Davis?

  29. donna darko wrote:

    We wouldn’t have had 13 years of in-fighting if more people read that book.

  30. Lelielle wrote:

    Another white Feminist here. I tend to only lurk on Feminist blogs, but all of these past events are really disheartening. We must constantly re-examine ourselves not just as Feminists, but as human beings, it is the only way. I believe the feelings of WoC are completely appropriate -I have always believed in the saying “If you aren’t outraged, you aren’t paying attention”. I’m
    just starting on my journey of learning about the world of intersectionality, but dang if it don’t make total sense, and dang if it doesn’t makes me mad as hell. I will never fully be able to empathize with WoC but I feel I must do everything I can to at least try. I am glad to see the discourse.

    “In matters of oppression, those who stand and do nothing side with the oppressor” -

    damn straight Mr. Tutu

  31. wendi muse wrote:

    donna,

    i don’t know if i would agree that racism is less acceptable than sexism. i think it depends on how vocal the ethnic/racial group is to be honest and how desensitized we are to racist media coverage.

    for example, lots of racism toward asian americans is covered less and the community responds less vocally than, say, racist incidents committed toward blacks. nevertheless, i think that’s part of media bias as well in a weird way. they cover what they think will attract an audience, and people love nothing more than seeing blacks riot and “complain” as a means of entertainment. that’s what we are conditioned to. blacks are labeled as oversensitive. case closed.

    yet feature a stereotype of an asian american on tv and the only people who end up covering it are writers from blogs like racialicious and APA-centric blogs. it’s pretty easy to fill in the blank here with any non-black racial group mainly because in the US we like to only focus on black and white. it’s what people are used to and it’s what helps ratings.

    in the meantime, i do agree that sexism sucks and i experience it quite a bit, but as a person who experiences racism and sexism at the same time in most instances, i can’t say one trumps the other. i see tons of cases of racism that end up being ignored or swept under the carpet too. . .


    p.s. i don’t mean the apa/black discrimination thing to be taken as an example of oppression olympics. studies show that coverage of blacks in the news is significantly higher than other groups (though usually for crime-related stories), causing many americans to think that even the black population is larger than it actually is. i think our country is “conditioned” to thinking about or viewing stories on blacks and the problems within said community, but still on uncomfortable, shaky, uncertain ground when it comes to wrapping their heads around concerns of other communities due to lack of exposure.

  32. Annabelle wrote:

    i think i have click and anti-click moments on a daily basis. and today offered an extra-special moment that i thought i’d share based on the intruiging topic.

    i left my office to grab a drink at a store nearby and had a man follow me through the store murmuring about how he’d like to “hit that white piece of ass cause you sure is a sexy bitch”.

    i am a white woman from a majority black city. this is a strange position to be in– knowing you are part of the majority but being a minority every where you go. i don’t at all disregard the priviledge that has been offered to me despite my city’s demographic.

  33. an wrote:

    i think i have click and anti-click moments on a daily basis. and today offered an extra-special moment that i thought i’d share based on the intruiging topic.

    i left my office to grab some things at the the rite aid. a man follow me through the store murmuring about how he’d like to “hit that white piece of ass cause you sure is a sexy bitch”. that’s an actual quote, i swear it.

    the sad truth is that in america race matters, no matter what your race may be. it’s the geography that determines who feels entitled to say what. would this have happened a couple of blocks closer to the “nice” part of downtown? i really don’t know.

    i am a white woman from a majority black city. this is a strange position to be in– knowing you are part of the majority but being a minority every where you go. i don’t at all disregard the priviledge that has been offered to me despite my city’s demographic. however, my race is called into question by guys on the bus stop, in the shops, working on the building next door, on a near daily basis. i would venture to say that 9.9 out of the 10 times my race is called out on the street, it is in relation to “hitting that ass”.

    is it the novelty of a white woman walking around downtown that inspires that kind of language? would he talk to a black woman like that? does it matter, ’cause neither of us deserve to be called bitches or have our asses discussed in the rite-aid?

    could it be that race and gender have become inextricably linked in people’s quest to assert authority over anything– especially when they really control so little in their lives? i think it is true in the united states.

    then i came back to my desk and thought about it some more. i opened an email describing the systematic rape occuring in eastern congo. the post mentions white men raping black women to demonstrate dominance. black men are doing this to black women in congo and serbs did it to croats in former yugoslavia. religion, tribe, political affiliation are just as important in these parts of the world as race is in downtown of my city.

    so i realize that sit on a fence. yes, of course feminism has to address race. as it does class, gender (rather than sex), sexual orientation. however, you look around the world– or walk into a rite aid– you can’t deny the systematic (and scarily consistent) treatment of women. there is something that does transcend– power. men are in a constant battle with one another for it and often use women to demonstrate it. this is the core of rape, domestic violence, degradation… it’s power. while we all have other factors that shape the dynamic, there is something that binds us all together and we’d be wise not to forget that.

  34. donna darko wrote:

    Oh definitely. Black racism is covered by the MSM and blogs not Asian racism! except on blogs.

  35. misssamuel wrote:

    Finished reading the post and I want to thank you again for it!

    Since my own awakening to feminism I seemed to identify with the privileged, higher class and academic feminists, and was pretty blind to the discrimination that is within the community. I became an agent of the white feminist cause. Perhaps it can be said that I forgot my colour of skin — which is pretty brown. It’s interesting how feminism became attractive to me before issues of race. That’s probably because my parents have good jobs, sent me to good schools (all of which were white and higher class environments) and paid for my tuition fees. My class seemed to override my race, my disabilities and even my queerishness.

    I’m beginning to catch myself in my learned habits of white mainstream feminism and discovering the identities that were buried and silenced beneath them.

    Has anyone else had the same experience?

  36. donna darko wrote:

    It’s important for nonwhite women to continue to speak out on how sexism and racism intertwine. Mainstream feminism has to put nonwhite women in decision-making positions to be relevant to most nonwhite women.

  37. Melissa wrote:

    It is hard to know where to start with my response. As a white feminist, I often read WoC blogs, but just lurk and do not respond. I think I am afraid that I will come off wrong, or say something stupid. But reading this post made me realize that that must be part of the problem. Maybe there are so many of us white feminists that are afraid of stepping on someone’s toes that we just stay quiet instead of jumping and asking questions.

    Thanks to Kate for jumping in here and asking questions….

    I realized about six months ago how sheltered my view of feminism really has been. I was reading a track to a post to a WoC blog and for about the 1st ten minutes, I kept rying to figure out what “WoC” stood for. That made me feel like shit and it made me realize that through all my activism, reading and acadamia, I am still pretty damn blind to what is out there.

    I am making the effort to learn more, but I will not for one minute pretend that reading WoC’s blogs is going to close the gap, but I hope it is a start. And white women need to stop being scared that they are going to say something stupid - gotta get in there, ask questions, and absorb as much as we can.

    Thanks for the post, LaToya.

  38. donna darko wrote:

    Twisty wrote a post in response to all the recent infighting in which she said white feminists should be fluent on racial matters. White male progressives should be fluent on racial matters, feminism, and what is shaping up to be most important in this election, class. Men of color should be fluent on gender issues.

  39. gasmith wrote:

    When will it click?

    I just don’t know? Does it matter what they come to us for? Is it to hear our opinions and comments or steal them from under us? Do we really assume that they care? They gave women the right to vote before the right was given to black people. Do you assume as a black woman that when they gave “women” that right that it included “black” “women” since they are obviously so different? Our struggles are one in the same. I feel the same way I do about black men as I do women and I hold our intelligence on the same pedistool. All I know is that we were all slaves. Raped and abused by the white men and sometimes their white wives. They have this word feminism. Was that word created in the image of all women or just certain women? If all, where is the word for being concerned for the black human being as a whole? Where is blackism…or…Negroism? Where are WE?

  40. gasmith wrote:

    When will it click?

    I just don’t know? Does it matter what they come to us for? Is it to hear our opinions and comments or steal them from under us? Do we really assume that they care? They gave women the right to vote before the right was given to black people. Do you assume as a black woman that when they gave “women” that right that it included “black” “women” since they are obviously so different? Our struggles are one in the same. I feel the same way I do about black men as I do. Black women and I hold our intelligence on the same pedistool. All I know is that we. were all slaves. Raped and abused by the white men and sometimes their white wives. They have this word feminism. Was that word created in the image of all women or just certain women? If all, where is the word for being concerned for the black human being as a whole? Where is blackism…or…Negroism? Where are WE?

  41. bluefoot wrote:

    “I need to be in the company of women who do not have the luxury of looking past issues that are inconvenient to them.

    “I need to be in the company of women who understand on a gut level, not an intellectual level, what I am going through. I need people who understand my life, not because they have read and studied and occassionally worked with women like me. I need to know that somewhere, out there, someone just knows.”

    Amen to that.
    I have been a feminist for what, 25 years? and have more and more been made to feel there is no place for me as a feminist as a WoC. Sometimes I just want to lie down and cry.
    I had always thought feminism was fighting for equality for all. Boy was I wrong.

    re racism compared to sexism, there is no real separation for me, for what I experience. And I think they do more than intersect, they synergize. As a WoC, there is usually sexism incorporated in the racism I experience, and racism in the sexism I experience. Each intensifies the other.

    For me this is complicated by the fact that I’m ethnically mixed. I experience racism mixed with sexism even within the communities that I belong to/identify with.

    So where do we go from here? What do we DO to make things better? Because I am at a loss.

  42. donna darko wrote:

    Like I said, nonwhite women have to continue to speak out on how sexism and racism intertwine and white feminism has to put women of color in decision-making positions to be relevant to women of color. White feminists should be fluent on race and men of color should be fluent on gender. None of this ever happens.

    What usually happens is we end up fighting alone. I have been fighting alone for 20 years. It sucks but I’m used to it.

  43. Le wrote:

    “Trying to articulate my experiences, and being told that we need to focus on the ‘real’ feminist issues. Things that impact ‘all’ (read: white) women.”

    I find this funny because from the perspective of a person of color, issues that affect ‘all’ of us means the inclusion of nonwhites. So the fact that this description of what’s important was used to exclude your concerns is pretty disheartening.

    In terms of women of color not speaking up, my (white, female) friend taught a course on abusive relationships at a high school in Oakland, CA. Her students were upwards of 90% African-American. She told me one reason the young women didn’t take any sort of legal or public action against their abusive partners was because they didn’t want to perpetuate the stereotype of black men being violent.

    This is a catch-22 of an unfortunate nature. The blog I keep is specifically about the lack of victims of color being featured in news reports of rape, domestic violence, kidnappings, etc. But sometimes I wonder: how would certain sectors of the American public perceive such coverage? Would some use it as evidence that families of color are more prone to abuse and instability?

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