Does Feminism Have to Address Race?

by Latoya Peterson

So I have been thinking hard lately as to why I should continue to identify as a feminist. Should I change my designation to womanist? Perhaps to I should have no designation at all.

After all, my views won’t change. I am still dedicated to highlighting issues that impact women of color and I am still going to work in my community with young women of color. I am still going to write things for them to read, to think about. I am still going to write to inform the men in our community what we are going through.

But does that require me to identify as a feminist?

I stumbled across a blog post on Astarte’s Circus with a strong declaration on why Octoglalore is a feminist. Pretty solid post. Feminists believe that women should be equal to men. Period. Full stop. I also read a post by the Apostate explaining why some things are not feminist issues, particularly in reference to Holly’s post on Feministe.

She writes:

Feminism should be about women.

Everything else has its own label.

And it’s important to keep the labels distinct because that’s why feminism was invented. “Man’s” inalienable rights did not include women. “Human” rights has not traditionally included women because women are not necessarily seen as human. Religions giving communities dignity and centering force has not included women. We needed our own club. We still need it. If you bring my race into feminism and start talking about my asshole brother’s right to stay in this country (he’s an immigrant of less certain status than I), guess what? The feminist arena, my safest safe space, my only refuge from the enemies of my very life, has been compromised.

In another post, the Apostate writes:

This is why a race-centric analysis of women’s issues bothers me. Feminism is about women, period. It’s race-neutral. Hopefully, it will remain about women, instead of turning into an ersatz black civil rights movement pre-occupied with issues of police brutality against black men. If I am interested in race issues, I know where to go to read about them. If I am interested in women’s issues, I should be able to go to feminist websites and read about them. I don’t need my feminism to become a catch-all for all social justice issues, because to be honest, the only thing that really fires me up is women’s oppression, sexism and misogyny.

A lot of feminists share the view of the Apostate. One peek into the comments section for many of the feminist blogs (large and small) will reinforce this idea that feminism is about women and that race discussions and the like are distractions from the main event.

But here’s my question: if feminism is about women and is race neutral, why do I still feel like such an outsider? Feminism is supposed to be a refuge for women, but the kind of woman I am is marginalized or not represented at all. So now what?

To illustrate, let’s take a look at this post from Zuzu on Feministe. I selected this post because it is the least controversial example I know.

Zuzu makes an awesome argument for how sexism (in various forms) is hampering Clinton’s candidacy and provides some stellar examples as to how people keep trying to explain away their sexism. She ends:

So to circle back to what I said in November 2006:

    These insults aren’t meant just for the recipients. They’re meant for everyone else in that group, too. So detailed descriptions of your fantasy that “corporate whore” really means real whore doesn’t just hurt Tauscher, the intended target. It hurts Pelosi, too. And it’s meant to — that’s what insults based on a group characteristic or stereotype are for. They’re meant to convey the message to any member of a non-dominant group that they might be accepted for now, but we all know that they’re really just a cunt and a whore, like those women we don’t like.

Please keep this in mind when you read critiques of the gender-based slurs and framing and tactics and dismissals of Clinton. Those hurt all of us, as women, and tolerating or excusing them just makes it harder for women to be taken seriously.

Attack her all you want on her positions, on her record, on her tactics — but don’t stand for gender-based attacks on her. They’re not acceptable, no matter what you think of her and no matter who they’re coming from.

It’s bigger than this one candidate, and it’s bigger than the election.

And that, from me got a resounding hells yes. I think I’ve been clear on why I chose Obama over Clinton way back when and my views haven’t changed. But I have been sickened and disgusted about how Clinton has been portrayed in the media and how people use sexist attacks on her (and Chelsea!) to prove some non-existent point.

But as I was reading the piece, one little thorn stuck in my side.

And while there are hundreds if not thousands of other blogs as well as entire networks and mainstream media outlets rushing to the defense of Obama (thus rendering anything I have to say pretty well redundant), there are few outlets calling out misogynistic attacks on Clinton and/or on her supporters.

Umm, what?

I wrote in the comments:

Good piece.

With that being said, I have to agree with Oh and Felicia. For many of us women of color, we find ourselves equally frustrated – we have to fight the negative perceptions of Hillary as a woman that is not often acknowledged in racial circles and then come to feminist circles and hear Obama is getting a pass – which he is not, because we have seen way too much racist doublespeak being launched from the media and other campaign surrogates.

Again, puts us in an awkward position – I just finished battling a sexist comment about Chelsea Clinton and her participation in her mother’s campaign at lunch time. And while I would love to start handing out links to this piece to explain to some people why these comments like “Chelsea is so ugly” and “Hilary should be ironing a shirt” aren’t funny, I also wouldn’t want them to lose sight of the main piece because they have taken offense to some of the comments dismissing Barack’s treatment.

[Next Comment...]

And again, we could say the same thing from an anti-racist standpoint. Clinton has a legion of smart, influential feminists going to bat for her in the media and in the blogosphere who accuse Obama supporters of race baiting and making things up. Racism and sexism are both pervasive. If you hear more sexism than racism, I would suggest that is because of your lens of perception. I personally perceive more racism toward the Obamas (subtle and overt) than sexism toward Clinton (which is boldly overt), but that is because my lens views race more prominently than it views sexism.

[Third Comment...]

Oh, and let me clarify that lens comment. I am not arguing that what is perceived is wrong, I am arguing that we perceive things differently based on life experiences. I learned about race first, then sexism, so as a result I tend to pick up on racism faster and in more forms than I do with sexism. And even with that, I pick up on racism directed toward African-Americans faster than I do racism with other ethnic groups as that kind of racism is intimately familiar to me. If something is not intimately familiar to you, it can be difficult to discern when it is happening.

This example shows how people start to feel alienated in a space where they should be comfortable. I expected an excellent critique of sexism in the election and I got it – along with a small dig at who gets better treatment in the media. As far as I’m concerned, the only person getting a pass is McCain. But instead of focusing on that, we are more willing to fight each other, with little digs like this one that amount over time. Another great example is the Portfolio article about sexism in the workplace. The article presumes to speak for women and does a great job discussing facts and statistics. But why does it mention diversity as something companies have achieved and fail to mention the abysmal record of minority women being appointed to high ranking decision? Why is diversity a code word for minority men? And why do discussions of sexism always revolve around white women?

There seems to be a fundamental lack of understanding that other things inform the sexism that women experience. Some feminists can discuss women being viewed as weaker and less capable, never realizing that some of us are not ever allowed to hold that label. I’ve never been called “weaker” in my life. The stereotype that comes with black women is that we are supposed to be unbreakingly strong. Unceasingly capable. We are not supposed to be weak.

I have never been asked to fetch coffee. Never. Does that mean sexist shit doesn’t happen to me at work? No. But that sexism is informed by my race, so instead of assuming this cute young woman should sit prettily in the corner and make coffee, they assume that this name “Latoya Peterson” will manifest into some neck-swiveling straight from the ‘hood stereotype. The white girl being relegated to the coffee machine still has a job. My resume is in the recycle bin.

And while I can truly understand if some women feel that their gender problems take more prominence than their race problems, other women need to understand that for some of us, that separation does not happen. And what bothers me most about a lot of feminist discourse is that while it may claim to speak for all women, it leaves out crucial parts of the dialogue because it refuses to engage with these other issues.

Wendi and I were discussing this while we were in Cambridge and she summed up my sentiments in a very concise statement. She said, “I don’t have certain issues because I am a woman; I have certain issues because I am a black woman.”

Our discrimination is not race neutral. So why should our feminism be?

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Trackbacks & Pings

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Comments

  1. Elayne Riggs wrote:

    *applause*

    I’ve seen more and more discussion lately, on the heels of the Marcotte controversies, about feminism and privilege. I like to think feminists of color have a lot more allies than had been previously shown. I’m also very encouraged by white feminists speaking out in certain cultural venues, specifically where I hang out (the comic book industry), about the sexism and racism inherent in the treatment of black female characters.

  2. ottermatic wrote:

    I think the problem with “race neutral” feminism, is that “race neutral,” in feminism as in most other spaces, is really another word for “white.” If we call feminism “race neutral” and go about our day, white feminists end up with a lot of unexamined privilege that plays out in ways like including pictures of savage, dark, jungle man in books, or just altogether failing to address the issues of racism that clearly intersect with issues of misogyny in our culture.

    I don’t think that recognizing that the way misogyny plays out for women of color is different for than how it plays out for white women is putting race before women. I think it’s turning feminism into a tool that ALL women can use.

  3. atlasien wrote:

    I agree. I still feel no disconnect at calling myself a feminist, but the idea that feminism today is (or can be) “race-neutral” is totally wrong. Feminism as just as racist (but not more racist) than any other large social movement or group of people.

    It’s an awful double-bind. Often, if you criticize a feminist analysis for ignoring race, you’re betraying women; if you criticize a racial analysis for ignoring gender, you’re betraying “your men” and siding with white people.

    My expectations are not very high for mainstream feminism. But I wish they were higher.

    What has been truly surprising me is how people can so selectively ignore the numerous racist attacks on Obama and actually say he’s being treated better than Clinton.

  4. Mary wrote:

    The expectation that feminism would be “race neutral” is absolutely absurd, because sexism itself is not race neutral.

  5. RoslynHolcomb wrote:

    “…pre-occupied with issues of police brutality against black men.”

    I love the example she gave. It demonstrates just how clueless these women are. Black women have race issues as well. Are we suppose to ignore them in the name of solidarity with white women who have demonstrated that they don’t give one rat’s furry ass about us? What does it take for them to get a fucking clue that black women are doubly marginalized and thus we can’t ignore ‘race issues’?

    I refuse to believe that they are this clueless. This is clear and direct indifference and is more than ample reason why so many black women have no interest in the feminist movement.

    We will not find liberation or emancipation unless and until we develop our own movement firmly fixed in our own agenda.

  6. ceecee wrote:

    I feel the same away about defending Clinton to my family…it’s almost like when I start to say something everyone looks at me like…don’t you see what she’s doing to hurt Obama?! But I also see the sexist attacks on her

    … and sheesh I feel like she’s hindering me bcos now everyone will think that all women aspiring to higher positions in the corporate world will turn out to be mini-me versions of Clinton (& Omarosa).
    :(

  7. thesciencegirl wrote:

    “Our discrimination is not race neutral. So why should our feminism be?”

    Yes, yes, and yes. Beautifully put Latoya.

  8. esperanza13 wrote:

    Brava!

    What I find most disconcerting is that mainstream feminism persistently asserts that to acknowledge that women of different backgrounds have different experiences, confront different steretoypes or cultural expectations somehow weakens the cause of feminsm. As though, to allow for multiple perspectives and a plurality of experiences will somehow undermine feminsm.

    It seems to me that this is manifestly not the case. Indeed, the truth is that it weakens the cause of feminism to insist that it can only concern itself with a “race-neutral” discussion of the treatment of women (as though that were even possible).

    As you point out, not only does this alienate entire groups of women (thereby keeping women from truly being able to come together) – it also undermines what femism stands for.

    Because isn’t the point that human rights are just that – rights. That being treated equally isn’t something that has to be deserved or earned – it should be the status quo. One should start out being treated equally.

    But if we are to treat these rights as “inalienable” then the fact of the matter is -we have to fight for these rights fo EVERYONE – irrespective of gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc… Because if any one group doesn’t deserve these “inalienable rights” as much as another group, well, then they aren’t really inalienable. And that means they are arbitrally given and can therefore be taken away from any group at any time for any reason.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that you can’t fight for women’ s rights, without also fighting against racism, homophobia, xenophobia – or any other kind of discriminatory treatment.

    So why can’t we acknowledge that fighting for women’s rights isn’t – and can’t be – “race neutral?”

  9. Caro wrote:

    Latoya, as a white feminist, reading your entries on this topic always helps me to re-examine the way that my own privilege often blinds me when thinking about feminism. I think you (and other women of color bloggers) have set me on a path towards a deeper, more self-critical feminism. I just wanted to let you know that your writing is not falling on deaf ears! Thanks, and keep writing. :-)

  10. emfole wrote:

    “Feminism is about women, period. It’s race-neutral.”

    nonononono. Womyn come in ALL COLORS. There is no such thing as a “race-neutral” person! This is such a white-centric view. So sad….

  11. TierList E wrote:

    The way the world is set up right now “race neutral” can not even exist. It’s the Loch Ness monster of race-relations: Everyone has a blurry photograph and a cute “I don’t see color” t-shirt but at the end of the day it’s only a couple of white kids with bad props.

    So they’re basically confusing “race-neutral” with “unmarked race”, and the “unmarked race” is *gesters* . . .white people.

    But I don’t think all of it is ill will- I just think some people get uppity with their ignorance. Especially if that same ignorance is passed around unquestioned by most of your peers. A lot of people will not think about things they are not forced to.

  12. Kali wrote:

    Hi, Latoya,
    Glad I found your blog via your perceptive post on feministe.

    Can’t say I approve of much of what Apostate says but your quotes here certainly made me think. There are lumpers and splitters in every field of study. I am a lumper/big picture person myself.

    I am going to start reading a little more and Critical Feminism/Race may be a good place to start?

  13. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    Since this and the previous post are are closely connected, I’ll comment about both of them on this post. I’m with atlasien in regards to calling myself a feminist because I do believe in the liberation of women–and men and children–from patriarchy’s vise-like grip. It gives people a point of understanding when I start talking about, say, my problem with cosmetic surgery. Because I move through this world as a Black woman, I see that struggle against partiarchy as linked to–not subsumed by–other social -isms and -phobias. Bluntly, I can’t be down with a feminism that doesn’t envelope–not just give lip service to–*all* of these struggles.

    What pisses me off–and, from what I gather from your two posts, Latoya, you’re really tired of, too–is the “bait-and-switch” tactics some feminists have been pulling for nearly 100-some odd years and counting. (The BrownfemiPower/Marcotte situation is the latest of a looooooong history of white feminists and feminists of color over the construct of “woman” and who gets to speak and struggle for us, going all the way back to Sojourner Truth and the Seneca Falls Convention.) As much as we argue and advocate that “woman” and “feminism” is a construct and fluid and so welcoming of women of color *as women*, it becomes a mighty rigid when race and racism are brought up and seen as a rallying point. Then we women and feminists of color get, “I don’t need my feminism to become a catch-all for all social justice issues, because to be honest, the only thing that really fires me up is women’s oppression, sexism and misogyny.”

    How I solve this dilemma for myself is still believing in feminism but not believing in all feminists. I also solve this in my own mind by seeing feminism as a credo to do something, not a home in which to kick off my shoes. I can’t help thinking of Sweet Honey in the Rock founder Bernice Johnson Reagon’s prophetic words about coalition politics:

    http://shewhostumbles.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/bernice-johnson-reagon-coalition-politics-turning-the-century/

  14. Outcrazyophelia wrote:

    I don’t understand “race-neutral” feminism because in our society, no one is race neutral. To proclaim that race should never enter the equation is to shut out every woman who experiences race as a salient portion of their identity. I never hear about “ability-neutral” or “sexuality-neutral” feminism because they know it’s bull. Race makes people squeamish and they don’t want to talk about it and don’t know how to make the connections in their mind between their experiences as women and the racialized experiences of non white women. Feminism is supposed to be about all women, and if that’s the case, it means the experiences of white, heterosexual, able bodied women should not take precedence to the point of eclipsing all other experience.
    I am not just gendered, I am also raced and for feminism to try and say that gender is the only identity affecting women is a creative fiction.

  15. Jessie wrote:

    Feminism isn’t race-neutral and it shouldn’t be! To consider feminism “race-neutral” is to discount the very race-specific struggles of many women (for example, white women make 77 cents to every white man’s dollar; black women OTOH make 67 cents to every white man’s dollar).

    I feel that the “white-washing” of feminism is very closely connected to class issues–although I am white, I often feel disconnected to many other white feminists because many of them (especially in private universities in cities like Boston) are concerned with issues that apply only to middle/upper-class (often white) women, whereas I had a very different upbringing and am much more concerned with the struggles of working and underclass women (and thanks to institutionalized racism, this means I’m more concerned with issues affecting women of color). I really feel that the current feminist movement needs to reorient towards the problems of poorer women and women of color, as they often suffer the worst discrimination and inequality. Maybe then we can start talking about feminist organizations for upper-class executive women.

  16. Treacle wrote:

    Asking women to ignore their ethnicity in the interests of “solidarity” devalues that identity, makes it seem not worth talking about, and therefore devalues women of non-European descent.

    My identity as a Black, queer, middle-class woman is not additive. You can’t simply subtract one when it’s convenient for you. They’re all bundled up together and I’m treated in a specific way because of the configuration of all of them.

    This is Intersectionality 101. What is so hard to understand?

  17. Yvette wrote:

    Wonderful post. I wish someone would start some sort of support group for those of us who are struggling to battle this so-called race-neutral feminism. I’d be the first to join!

  18. Feminist Punk! wrote:

    Racism is more of a “taboo,” but men of all races, colours, ethnicities, and faiths, all seem to tolerate sexism. It doesn’t matter where you go. You’ll witness sexism everywhere.

    so, as a non-white, non-Western, non-Christian, colored “ethnic” female, I can safely say that sexism is a harder subject to tackle than racism.

    You see a huge national outrage over Don Imus mocking black women, but not so much with Chris Matthews insulting women as a whole group.

    I am a feminist and a humanist. I think that all women AND all human beings, regardless of their skin colour, should be treated as equal human beings.

    I don’t give a f–k if my feminist sisters are white. So the f–k what?

    UNITE, NOT DIVIDE!!!!

  19. Anonymiss wrote:

    Well said. It’s not fair to dictate how one should feel about certain treatment. White feminists who demand race neutrality are no better than Black men that demand sex neutrality.

    We are Black and women — not two separate entities. I too was conditioned to put my race before my sex but I learned to reject that behavior. And in my book, disrespect is disrespect. Plain and simple. No one should allow someone’s narrowed perceptions to tell them otherwise.

  20. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Unite not divide my ass!

    I wrote a WHOLE piece on this for the Coming Together carnival that Tami (from What Tami Said) co-hosted with Heart from Women’s Space.

    An excerpt:

    Come together? Maybe not

    by Latoya Peterson

    I wish hearing the words “come together” didn’t make me cringe so much.

    After all, it’s a kind-hearted exhortation. Come together means to unify, to place our differences aside for a few moments.

    But alas, I can’t.

    “Come together” to me now sounds a bit like a curse. For you see, the people who keep asking me to come together keep asking me to check my opinions and identity at the door.

    We can come together as long as I am willing to toe the line. We can come together unifed as women as long as I am willing to silence myself about how race impacts me and how people in this group perpetuate racism. We can come together as long as I help block the door against transfolk. I can be in the circle if I hold my tongue about my real opinions on sex work.

    These kind of feelings are what makes me like feminism, but stay away from it formally. The way my life works, I tend to take heat about my race first, with gender stereotypes influenced by those racial assumptions. And for some reason, no matter how much I discuss these things, I still don’t feel heard or understood.

    It is this feeling that causes me to retreat, into the company of people like myself who understand these issues, who may not embrace the mantle of “feminist” but care about equality for women.

    Now, I can hear the protests rising – if we don’t communicate, how do we change things? If we each retreat to our respective corners, how will we ever bridge that divide? And it’s true, it is hard to bridge a divide with a wall between us.

    However, it is also hard to continue to deal with same situation, over and over, always being expected to be quiet, polite, and non-frustrated, even if it’s the 400th time you have to explain to someone why a certain situation may be more complicated than it appears.

    And, I would be more inclined to reach out if I saw a change, saw a difference in behavior. All too often, people – particularly in feminist circles – say they want alternate viewpoints and diversity, but actively do and say things to undermine this effort. If a person of color points out these mistakes or slights, they find themselves either (1) burdened to explain over and over again why something is this way, (2) dismissed outright, (3) endlessly told that they aren’t understanding the situation.

    Rest is at Tami’s:

    http://whattamisaid.blogspot.com/2008/03/womens-history-month-blog-carnival_9685.html

    Fuck the bullshit – I’m not trying to reconcille with people who keep spitting in my face.

  21. Jen* wrote:

    I went and read Octogalore’s post, and finally found what I was looking for in terms of summing things up. That’s the nutshell.

    As a woman of color, I’ve experienced racism and sexism. Feminism as a belief system addresses the sexism part. Just like I don’t quit on my religious beliefs when my pastor says something I don’t agree with, or a church member offends me, I don’t quit on feminism when I meet a racist feminist.

    I can understand why some feel more personally wronged and would choose to disassociate – the same thing happens with churches and other groups. My philosophy is to not let people push me out, but to remain – as an example of what the real system is supposed to be like.

    In talking about these issues with my sister, she brought up a good point. It seems to her that more often, additional human rights issues are added to the feminist plate, because we’re women – we’re supposed to care about everything. That’s not to say we shouldn’t – just to say that other organizations/movements/belief systems should be held to the same standard. Otherwise we’re not actually practicing the feminist thing, anyway.

  22. Naamenblog wrote:

    Race-neutral doesn’t exist. Race-neutral means looking at everyone as white, it’s the same as saying colorblind. It’s easy for white people to be race-neutral or colorblind but as People of Color we have to deal with race every single day of our lives, there is no race-neutral or colorblind for us and there never will be.

  23. Lyonside wrote:

    Jen*said: >It seems to her that more often, additional human rights issues are added to the feminist plate, because we’re women – we’re supposed to care about everything

    The Apostate wrote: >Hopefully, it will remain about women, instead of turning into an ersatz black civil rights movement pre-occupied with issues of police brutality against black men.

    Well, that’s interesting. Non-white = black in her mind. “black civil rights ” = preoccupation (by connotation, unnecessary?) with police brutality. Nice attitude there.

    Here’s the problem I see with trying to “limit” issues that feminists can tackle: issues that supposedly affect men ALSO affect women.

    When our brothers, our spouses, our fathers are cultural targets for discrimination, who do you suppose steps in to take care of kids, siblings, parents, family? Women do, as we always have done. When those same brothers, spouses, fathers, etc. are affected by sexism and racism, it harms us too. ALL SOCIAL JUSTICE ISSUES affect women – because we’re people, and people are affected by social justice issues. Furthermore, women with children are more vulnerable to and overwhelmingly bearing the brunt of war, famine, totalitarian governments, poor working conditions, undocumented immigration, etc. There are many examples of countries and cultures where an improvement of OVERALL conditions lifts up women as well, and vice versa. I don’t see how you can really seperate individual social justice issues from each other – they’re all related.

    Only someone who is surrounded 100% by other women can afford to exclude men from the struggle for equality. Only someone who is of the majority 100% of the time can afford to exclude the minorities (plural, dammit!). And only someone in the 100% would assume that all women have the same issues and perspectives and solutions, regardless of ethnicity, socioeconomic background, and social status. Gee, all women are the same… isn’t that a bit… sexist?

  24. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Okay, obviously from my last response, I’m still salty as hell.

    I have a post coming out on owning prejudice, should publish tomorrow or Wednesday which discusses allies and ways to move forward.

    But I would like to reinforce that I am SALTY AS HELL. (Saltier than I should be considering I’ve been marinating on this a month in order to turn both posts into something that can be published, instead of “Fuckity-fuck!” )

    @ Elyane – Yes, I think I have to post on that seperately. Especially in the wake of Ragnell’s comments comparing the Open Source Boob project and the recent feminist controversies. Geek culture has a lot of flaws, but I am proud of the communities there.

    @atlasien – Cosign. I’m not arguing that feminism isn’t needed, but it’s a glaring WTF – especially as people keep asking “why aren’t there more women of color involved.” Should we be blasting at sexism in anti-racist movements? Hell yeah! (There’s a reason why we’re here y’all…) But I have noticed that a lot of non-progressive men will make very clear what they think women should be doing. It’s a much clearer fight as sexist men of color will tell you in a heartbeat that you need to stand aside and let the men do the real work. Like I said, I am more annoyed because feminism claims to speak for all women, but has some glaring oversights.

    @ ottermatic, Mary, Roslyn, esperanza – cosign!

    @ Ceecee – yep, we see both. That’s why I chose Zuzu’s argument to illustrate – she did such a great job. Why the need for a comparison? She could have cut that paragraph and the piece would have still been strong. Stronger, I might add.

    @ Emfole – the Apostate is not white. Not sure what she identifies as. But I agree with what you said.

    @ Caro – good to know. Sometimes, I feel like I’m talking to the air.

    @ TierListE – Can I steal this line? “I just think some people get uppity with their ignorance.” Perfect!

    @ Kali – not sure what to tell ya. I read some things, but not as much as I should have. When I do the next post (which heavily quotes something Sudy brough up) maybe we’ll get into an “anti-racist feminist reading list.”

    @ TCS – the bait and switch indeed. I am personally trying to figure out if feminism is going to be a main interest of mine, or if it is time to take what I’ve learned and get the hell out of dodge.

    @OutcrazyOphelia – Cosign! And again, that is what is pissing me off. If you ONLY want to look at issues that relate to a certain class of women, or only look at symptoms instead of the ailment, fine. Just stop saying feminism is for all women, and stop being upset when women don’t choose to identify in that way.

    @Jessie – great example.

    @Treacle – asking myself the same thing.

    @Yvette – if one doesn’t grow out of all this, I would be surprised.

    @Feminist Punk! – Please understand that your truth is subjective. The national outcry about Don Imus did *nothing* to deal with any substantial racial issue. And half of the people weighing in with opinions were trying to figure out what “nappy” meant. Sexism is something that is perpetuated by men, regardless of social group. This we do not deny. But to say that sexism is a harder subject to tackle than racism denies those people who don’t experience sexism as keenly as they experience other isms…like racism or ableism.

    Anonymiss – Word. I also love the assumption that because we are fighting on the feminist front, we are somehow NOT fighting on the anti-racist front. I think I’ve spoken quite a bit on how tough it is to change people’s minds about sexism, and how I find it more effective to tackle one person at a time, rather than an entire group.

    Jen* – Yeah, Octogalore’s post was quite good and I hope more people read it and really think about which causes they choose to align themselves with.

  25. Kai wrote:

    Latoya, I really like this salty as hell side of you! ;-)

  26. octogalore wrote:

    Latoya, thanks for the mention and I’d welcome any critique you may have if you’re back!

    As to “does feminism have to address race,” hopefully you didn’t read my piece as responding “no” to that question. I don’t think feminism can be race neutral, ability-neutral, income-neutral, orientation-neutral, if it’s going to be for all women.

    What I have tried to emphasize is that feminism should keep the emphasis on women. As you say, there are issues distinct to black women. Those should be given more focus in feminism; after all, neither black nor white women are a footnote but part of the text. What you say about “gender stereotypes influenced by racial assumptions” seems to me to be a critical feminist issue.

    When feminist blogs start becoming about men, though, whether they are of color, immigrants, etc., with the explanation “well, they have wives and daughters,” IMO we’re losing focus. And losing what WOC like Demita Frazier and Mercedes Tompkins created WOC feminist groups to avoid. The had noted that the anti-racist movement, which they remained very much a part of, did not prioritize feminism.

    Obviously, race and immigration and homophobia are a background to what many women are dealing with and need to be discussed as such. But if feminism becomes too broad and becomes about everything, again IMO, it’s no good to anybody.

    Feminists should certainly support other worthwhile causes. But using the feminist movement to do so isn’t going to be successful. Activism needs focus to be about results and not breastbeating. This is difficult stuff with huge obstacles. To create change, the message needs to be clear. If liberal causes become catch-alls, that doesn’t happen, we all get soft and fuzzy and say all the right things and nothing changes.

    So — I’m not sure in the end that we disagree. If the changes I think should happen in the movement happened, it wouldn’t be a place where a WOC or lesbian or WWD felt out of place. But it would be a place where the major feminist groups center women — ALL women.

  27. CScarlet wrote:

    I’m with everyone else who is saying that feminism cannot be race neutral because the patriarchy/sexism is not race neutral. You supported this very well yourself, that it affects us based on race and on class as well as our gender.

    I do not know what the solution is for feminist organizing. I’m starting to feel kind of hopeless about ever affecting changp e that matters when my world view is so limited and when there is so much that needs to be done- how do we put meaningful action into every cause? As a feminist organizer, this stuff keeps me up at night.

  28. Feminist Punk! wrote:

    So what are we supposed to do? Keep hating on our white feminist sisters?

  29. Slush wrote:

    As you said, the experience of sexism is different and takes different forms and offenses for white women, black women, latinas, asians, everyone. There are racial shades of sexism, to be sure. But I think feminists can find unity in spite of that. We can recognize that different sexist stereotypes apply to different women, but that all of them converge to the extent that they degrade or disparage the status of women as a whole. As a white feminist, I want feminism to acknowledge and take great concern for the variety of women’s experience and the racial dynamics that affect women. But I also agree that I don’t want feminism to get distracted by the plight of men of color. For one thing, I don’t see men of color who are involved in fighting racism speaking up against sexism toward women of color hardly ever. I see the feminist movement, with plenty of distractions and missteps for sure, trying to broaden its historically white upper class facade and incorporate responses to the ethnic variety of sexism. But I don’t see male race scholars or activists trying very hard to listen to their sisters. That’s just my experience, maybe it’s purely that I’m not reading or listening to the right sources. But if I’m treading on a bit of truth there, I think that should be an extra source of power in feminism, that we are truly concerned about all women, not just the loudest or the most powerful.

  30. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @FP – How is it hating when we are pointing out a place where they have specifically indicated they want to do better.

    The frustration here is not that a white feminist made a mistake. The frustration is that (1) this is a pattern of the same mistakes (2) when you point out the mistake you’re accused of hating (3) the perpetrators of the mistakes refuse to engage in any substantial self-reflection to prevent said “mistake” from happening again, (4) the widespread dismissal of the words of WoC throughout these varying conflicts and (5) how the blogosphere blow ups are reflective of the overreaching issues with feminism pulling the bait and switch, as TCS named it above.

    This conflict is not brand new and its not about hating. Its about equality for women who aren’t white.

    And also, we aren’t diminishing the voices of people like Tekanji and Cara who both came out and denounced the behavior with a quickness. They’re white. They get it. And also, I think (because I am not 100% sure on ethnicity) other people like Ico, Ilyka, belledame22, and others I saw on the thread jumped in and added their voices.

    The problem is that the predominant voice is not theirs. The predominant voice belongs to people who continue to sweep race issues – among others – under the rug and still act like things are fine.

    If well reasoned critiques are now considered hating, that is another area in which to address is feminism is going to live up to its aims of advocating for ALL women.

  31. gatamala wrote:

    FP~ when and where did someone say that?

  32. CuntLovin wrote:

    I think, we could talk about “race neutral” feminism if the oppression of women existed in a vacum where no other ‘oppressions’ occur…but the world is not like that…I know people will disagree but I still subscribe firmly to the belief that the nature of oppression is overarching and that there is no way to obliterate the oppression of one group even if that group is women…that said we all have our passions and if we had to stretch our resources to as an individual fight every single wrong in the world we would not have the strength…thats why I believe the best possible route is to find that one thing that you as an individual can fight and focus on that but always always always remain aware of the varient nature of oppression and its effects on others beyond you…and support and recognized the oppression beyond your own because I think everyones work as a individual becomes so much more powerful when they work with a conscious mind…

  33. Black Canseco wrote:

    As a so-called crazy old coot recently distilled, “different is not deficient.” Unless of course we’re talking WOCs in which case, their primary charge is to be cheerleader for White Feminists who obviously can speak for all women.

    Feminism should never be race-neutral as one excerpt notes. Why? Because “women” are not “race-neutral”. People are not race-neutral. People are part of different tribes, cultures ethnicities, racial makeups. To pretend that movements, orgs and discussions should be blind to this fact is absurd.

    Let’s be honest, Hilary Clinton is not a female candidate; she is a white female candidate. That’s neither a good thing or a bad thing, it’s just a fact.

    We still ignore Carol Moseley Braun’s and Shirley Chilsolm’s historic runs mentioning only HRC’s and Geraldine Ferraro’s veep run as “women” for this very reason. “Women” still means “white women” for far too many.

    “Women” are why we ignore disappearing/raped/ abused WOC’s in favor of missing/raped/abused white women. “Women” are why the children of black women can get gunned down in my home town of Chicago with almost no media coverage but when the child of white woman does the same in a school, out come the cameras, pundits, etc.

    “Women” are why no one is allowed to bat an eye over Hilary Clinton’s continual conflating of her marriage with political work experience without being accused of gender bias. (Could John Kerry for example, have passed off his marriage to Teresa Heinz as ‘corporate experience’ because Heinz is on the board of Heinz, Inc.?)

    If “women” is to ever be truly inclusive of all women and not simply white women then WOC as second-fiddle, then people have to be honest about differing issues between ethnicities and cultures and accept the fact, that once and for all, issues affecting WOC’s frequently not the same, but they are also just as valid and worthy of fighting for as issues affecting white women.

    Until that happens, feminism will atrophy into irrelevance under its own hypocrisies and self-serving myopia.

  34. CuntLovin wrote:

    @CScarlet

    I don’t think we can put action into every meaningful cause as an individual…and its not easy to step away from that…I think whats important is finding that cause, that passion that you can put your heart into, and no it may not be a cause the addresses every social wrong, (hell it probably won’t be because I have yet to find such a perfect encompassing cause) but if you are putting change into something you believe and you do that with an open mind and try to be aware of how what you do might impact someone differently and remain cognizant and supportive of other causes which tie into and relate to yours, than at the end of the day you should be able to sleep soundly and wake up with energy to do it all again…

  35. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    @ Cuntlovin’ –

    and try to be aware of how what you do might impact someone differently and remain cognizant and supportive of other causes which tie into and relate to yours, than at the end of the day you should be able to sleep soundly and wake up with energy to do it all again…

    Exactly. No one said feminism needs to be perfect. We said they need to be aware. And it looks like they’d rather be willfully blind!

    (By the way, you’re still here? I thought all the Jezzies decamped after that conversation ended. At any rate, welcome, and glad you decided to stick around.)

  36. CuntLovin wrote:

    HAHAHA no, I like Jezebel, but I am all about keeping an open mind and learning more…so I still read Jezebel but in spite of the differences on the Jezebel piece Im glad I was exposed to it because it opened up Racialicious and so many other blogs up to me…I am just saturated with happiness listening to smart diverse women talking about ‘feminism’, race and oppression in general…Happy to be here :)

  37. Black Canseco wrote:

    p.s.

    1) “man’s inalienable rights” didn’t include any man darker than a suntan. It specifically excluded African Americans and Native Americans.

    2) Women’s Suffrage Movement, etc. intentionally excluded women of color, specifically Black women.

  38. Slush wrote:

    @ Cuntlovin –

    “Let’s be honest, Hilary Clinton is not a female candidate; she is a white female candidate. That’s neither a good thing or a bad thing, it’s just a fact.”

    100% true, and should not be forgotten. But on a feminist tack, let’s not forget that’s she’s the only candidate designated with a gender at all, because she’s not a man.

  39. CuntLovin wrote:

    @Slush
    Wait lol I didn’t write about Clinton…shoot I live in Toronto, I am just happy to sit back and enjoy y’alls election…

  40. Slush wrote:

    Oh sorry, wrong name. I guess that was Black Canseco I was quoting.

  41. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ octogalore–I thought your initial post on Astarte’s Circus was right on, friend. IMO, your response to Latoya on this blog is, however, confuses me.

    You nailed it when you said, “Because that’s all it is. That’s all feminism is. There are tens, hundreds of different varieties. But feminism is very simple. No matter how dominant-seeming, no matter how vocal, no group can define for any individual woman what comes along with believing she is equal.”

    At first you say, “What I have tried to emphasize is that feminism should keep the emphasis on women. As you say, there are issues distinct to black women. Those should be given more focus in feminism; after all, neither black nor white women are a footnote but part of the text. What you say about “gender stereotypes influenced by racial assumptions” seems to me to be a critical feminist issue.”

    Then you come back with, “When feminist blogs start becoming about men, though, whether they are of color, immigrants, etc., with the explanation “well, they have wives and daughters,” IMO we’re losing focus….Obviously, race and immigration and homophobia are a background to what many women are dealing with and need to be discussed as such. But if feminism becomes too broad and becomes about everything, again IMO, it’s no good to anybody. Feminists should certainly support other worthwhile causes. But using the feminist movement to do so isn’t going to be successful. Activism needs focus to be about results and not breastbeating.”

    For some feminists, be they white or of color, who use feminism as an analytical tool and rallying point for their fighting for immigration rights, the “prison-industrial complex,” and transpeople getting proper healthcare don’t see these other causes as diminishing—making it “too broad and becoming about anything,” to use your words–their feminism or feminism in general. For these activists and thinkers, those other struggles define for them “what comes along with believing she is equal.” And, actually some of the most interesting work and activism—off the top of my head, there’s Samhita Mukhopadhyay at Feministing—came out of joining feminism and these other struggles. Yet, octogalore, you’d tell them that they need to keep feminism “about women.”

    Would you mind clarifying this for me?

  42. Black Canseco wrote:

    Not to veer off on an HRC tangent, but since I did mention her gender…

    Mentioning Clinton’s gender isn’t some evil ploy to ignore serious issues. It’s just a fact that of all the candidates running in either party, she was the only woman. (I’ll politely assume that we ignore McKinney’s run because the Green Party is so small and has like 4 other candidates in addition to her.)

    Between the two remaining candidates Obama seems to be the one who has to treat his most characteristic as a crutch to overcome–he’s black, but he won’t talk about it if you promise not to talk about it. while Clinton seems afforded a certain privilege of being “the first woman” to run and can mention her gender whenever she seems to be trailing in the polls, needs the pub, etc.

  43. Sarah J wrote:

    Thanks for articulating the problem that I had with zuzu’s original post…those little digs at those of us who speak up against the racism slung at Obama (which I at least saw coming directly from the Clinton camp in a way that the sexism aimed at Hillary has not come from the Obama camp).

    I’m a white feminist, and I don’t see my feminism or my activism as race-neutral. It just isn’t true, or possible, and won’t be in my lifetime, unfortunately. And I had to learn to see the issues of people of all races as issues that hurt me, but that means I know it’s possible.

  44. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ Slush–

    “For one thing, I don’t see men of color who are involved in fighting racism speaking up against sexism toward women of color hardly ever…I don’t see male race scholars or activists trying very hard to listen to their sisters.”

    I agree that more–many, many. many more–male race scholars need to speak up about sexism and listen to their sisters.” Some male scholars and activists who have–and still do:

    –Cornel West and bell hooks, Breaking Bread
    http://www.southendpress.org/2004/items/BreakingBread

    –Kevin Powell and Quentin Walcott working with filmmaker Aishah Shahidah Simmons around intra-racial rape
    http://melissaharrislacewell.com/Blog/?p=65

  45. Feminist Punk! wrote:

    Someone once argued to me that if I was proud to be a woman of color AND a feminist, then I shouldn’t call myself a feminist, I should call myself a Womanist.

    What does anybody else think of the pro-”ethnic” Womanist movement?

    I have to admit this whole debate is so confusing and I feel torn. I want to tell everybody to chill the f–k out, but at the same time, I can totally agree with everybody’s frustration about the race neutrality vs womanhood.

    Sigh. I wish life was simple.

  46. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Feminist Punk! –

    Womanism is cool as far as I can see. The problem is that is less known and less understood than feminism. Talk about a clusterfuck of discussion. I’d be interested to hear other’s thoughts as well.

    The debate is confusing, but I highly question the reaction of anyone who seeks to stop the debate outright. After all, if you are in the right, you should be able to defend your own argument convincingly and deal when that argument is challenged right?

    If you feel so strongly that you are in the right, then continue to support feminism. It’s fine. That’s your personal choice as a woman to decide what is right for you and what you choose to focus on.

    But I have yet to see a movement grow stronger when there is this kind of opening, festering wound that is left untreated.

  47. Sewere wrote:

    @ Latoya

    Unite not divide my ass! AND I am SALTY AS HELL.

    *Sewere stands back to see Latoya unleash brilliance*

    @ Feminist Punk

    So what are we supposed to do? Keep hating on our white feminist sisters?

    Yes, because standing in support of women of color especially black women is the same thing as hating white women….[End Sarcasm]

    Also, interesting that you coded pro-black as anti-white much like most folks who subscribe to white privilege/supremacy see every pro-black stance as a call for racial war (Example Black Liberation Theology).

  48. Sewere wrote:

    I should add that I’m not arguing that Black Liberation Theology is free from the inherent sexism of male-based religion, which it is not and we should continue fighting against that mind set. But that the coding of anything in the form of a political black empowerment/self-determination movement as anti-white has it’s origin in white supremacy projection of war of retribution for past sins.

    But enough about that. Latoya my apologies for derailing your post.

  49. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    As I said, I use the term “feminist” and “feminism” like a segue for talking to people precisely because it’s connotes women and liberation–whether people agree or disagree with the theory and activism. Really, I align myself with womanism because 1) it speaks to my experience as a Black woman yet expands it and 2) by its definition, it’s inclusive of men, standing with them yet giving us a point to critique their sexism and homophobia. In other words, it’s an encompassing feminism for me.

  50. CuntLovin wrote:

    Alright I will ask it because I am here to learn and am unfamiliar with the concept…
    what is “Womanism”?

  51. RainaWeather wrote:

    applause*

    I really don’t see how any ism can be neutral on any issue. Issues of race, sex, poverty, class, education, etc., all are intermingled. This article said pretty much what I think about keeping feminism and anti-racism separate. For some of us, it’s simply impossible.

  52. macintyre wrote:

    “Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Unite not divide my ass!”

    I’m coming to this argument from a slightly different perspective than many others here, I think, in that I’m interested in how feminists can make economic advances for women as a group through the courts and legislatures. If you limit it to that view, then don’t we all need to stand together, and can’t we all stand together? For example, all feminists can stand together and fight for the recently proposed amendments to Title VII that will help women get full redress for pay discrimination, right?

    It’s race-neutral in the sense that all women can benefit. But if in reality what it comes down to is that for black women, their economic well being as a whole really would be improved more by programs and legal gains geared towards race rather than gender, well, maybe it’s true that black women shouldn’t be feminists first when it comes to economic advances. Although I think it’s sad to slice the pie so thinly, because I think there are many economic issues where women can really all stand together.

  53. wendi muse wrote:

    it’s funny that you blogged this! i was just talking about this with a friend of mine this weekend and wondering what i consider myself first (if i had to pick). what do people see first? and i say it depends on the day. though most of the time, i would say i am a black person first, then a woman…it’s as if they see the color first, make associations with that, then see woman and tie the two in together. . . with that said, it’s important that women of color are given a space to discuss both racism and sexism together, as we often face them both at once.

  54. Feminist Punk! wrote:

    @cuntLovin:

    Womanism is a term that describes pro-family, pro-humanist attitude of “feminists.” It is a term coined by a Black writer who believes that Black women and Black men need to unite together and form a pro-family, pro-woman, pro-man agenda. I love the idea of womanism, but I don’t see why it can’t apply to feminism, either.

    I see the feminist agenda AS pro-family, pro-woman, pro-man, and most importantly, pro-humanist.

  55. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ CuntLovin–
    If you can get your hands on Alice Walker’s In Serach of Our Mothers’ Gardens, the definition is in the first few pages of the book. She’s the one who credited with the term. Here’s a really good interpretation of the meaning:

    http://mspmedia.net/2006/05/what-is-womanism.html

    And, of course, there’s Wikipedia, take it for what you will:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womanism

  56. atlasien wrote:

    @ Cruel Secretary #44 (I like this @ technique by the way)

    Here’s another:

    Sexism and Confucianism by Kai.

    I was really impressed by his short but eloquent stance. Asian cultures are stereotyped as overly sexist, with passive Asian women in need of rescue by white men. But fighting against this stereotype often leads to radical overcompensation: denying that Asian cultures are sexist at all. So it’s great to see an Asian-American man fighting against the stereotype while still directly condemning sexism.

  57. octogalore wrote:

    @ Cruel Secretary: I agree that a lot of interesting work and activism, eg that done by Samhita and BFP, involves looking at the intersection of issues like immigration and feminism. That in no way diminishes the message of feminism, in fact the opposite. I am not in any way suggesting that these kinds of analyses are not feminist analyses.

    But when folks use major feminist blogs as platforms to put across a panoply of lefty causes without any attempt to link to a gendered analysis, that’s where I think dilution can occur. Flip through the main stories on the big blogs and you’ll doubtless see many along these lines.

    So to clarify – I think immigration, poverty, disability, orientation, etc. need to be part of the story of feminism not just because they impact on 52% of the population, but because the discrimination some women face cannot be uncoupled with them and because the movement must include all women.

    If all issues impacting on women were feminist issues, then pretty much anything would be. Environmentalism. Health care. Prisons. War. Testicular cancer and its affect on the female sex life. These all affect women and should be discussed as such, but if feminist blogs had to cover all issues without focusing in on affect on women, the movement would lose its efficacy, IMO.

    I realize this is a somewhat nuanced point and that’s why I keep getting responses that suggest I take issue with an intersectional analysis. On the contrary. I just don’t want feminism to be the mom for the male liberal blogosphere, because I am doubtful that the favor will be returned.

  58. Tami wrote:

    Yes, Latoya! Yes! Yes! Yes! Oh, and, get out of my head!

    I am working on a post for tomorrow or Thursday called “I was a feminist once.” I still strongly believe in the equality of women, but I have come to believe that the movement of feminism is not meant for me. There are many reasons for my decision not to label myself “feminist,” which I tell you, requires a big paradigm shift for me, but the primary reason is the way I have seen women of color repeatedly marginalized in largely white feminist forums over the past months.

    Feminism is neutral if your race is neutral (read white). For the rest of us, our experiences as women are often bound with our race. For example, black women move very differently through the world than white women. The sexism we experience is sometimes the same, sometimes very different. When Don Imus called Gwen Ifill a “cleaning lady,” he was being sexist and racist at once. His slur simply would not work against, say, Cokie Roberts. There is a reason he used that particular bit of demeaning imagery.

    I am weary of being required to check my race at the door to participate in feminist discussions. Any movement that requires women to reject a piece of themselves to participate is no women’s movement at all.

  59. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    macintyre –

    Excellent. Excellent comment and a good way to reframe what the goals are.

    But if in reality what it comes down to is that for black women, their economic well being as a whole really would be improved more by programs and legal gains geared towards race rather than gender, well, maybe it’s true that black women shouldn’t be feminists first when it comes to economic advances.

    Is feminism about economic gains for women? That is a fascinating question and one I write about A LOT in other spaces. (Not so much here though…) I believe that should be a key component which is often ignored for the social justice/advocacy aspect of things.

    Now, I can interpret your question two ways. In the first way, I can see it as the smarter way to work towards a goal. In the second way, it can be construed as black women have divided loyalties so they should be permitted to opt out, depending on what is at stake. ( Keep in mind, this could also be flipped to say that black women have TOO many other considerations to think about outside of their gender and should therefore not be considered part of the larger movement.)

    Hmm, hmm, hmm…I really like this question. Like enough to create a whole post on.

    In the meantime, commenters, what do you think?

  60. Feminist Punk! wrote:

    I don’t want to piss off anybody for saying this, but I gotta ask this question.

    for some of you who have renounced feminism, aren’t you only giving into the white male patriachal bullshit system and going against the feminist movement?

    I can imagine sexist, racist assholes jumping up with joy at this and laughing at us. Maybe I’m just being too dramatic…

  61. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Feminist Punk! –

    To be quite honest, I would rather have the enemy that faces me openly than the enemy who would try to come at me as a friend, only to betray me later. I’ll take my chances with the OPENLY racist, sexist assholes, thanks.

    BTW, Fuck the partriarchy, we need to polish our swords for the kryiarchy.

    From Sudy:

    Patriarchy, for me, doesn’t cut it. It cuts it to gender. As you can see, I’m not that simple. Kyriarchy is a term I adopted four years ago and I feel now it’s time to show my true colors of what I think of patriarchy. Two words: old skool.

      Kyriarchy – a neologism coined by Elisabeth Schussler Fiorenza and derived from the Greek words for “lord” or “master” (kyrios) and “to rule or dominate” (archein) which seeks to redefine the analytic category of patriarchy in terms of multiplicative intersecting structures of domination…Kyriarchy is best theorized as a complex pyramidal system of intersecting multiplicative social structures of superordination and subordination, of ruling and oppression.

      Patriarchy – Literally means the rule of the father and is generally understood within feminist discourses in a dualistic sense as asserting the domination of all men over all women in equal terms. The theoretical adequacy of patriarchy has been challenged because, for instance, black men to not have control over white wo/men and some women (slave/mistresses) have power over subaltern women and men (slaves).

      - Glossary, Wisdom Ways, Orbis Books New York 2001

    Let me break this down for you. When people talk about patriarchy and then it divulges into a complex conversation about the shifting circles of privilege, power, and domination — they’re talking about kyriarchy. When you talk about power assertion of a White woman over a Brown man, that’s kyriarchy. When you talk about a Black man dominating a Brown womyn, that’s kyriarchy. It’s about the human tendency for everyone trying to take the role of lord/master within a pyramid. At it best heights, studying kyriarchy displays that it’s more than just rich, white Christian men at the tip top and, personally, they’re not the ones I find most dangerous. There’s a helluva lot more people a few levels down the pyramid who are more interested in keeping their place in the structure than to turning the pyramid upside down.

    Rest is here:

    http://myecdysis.blogspot.com/2008/04/accepting-kyriarchy-not-apologies.html

    And you best BELIEVE we will be discussing that concept on this blog.

    (More on that tomorrow, y’all)

  62. Slush wrote:

    I think focusing on the economics is a good tactic, because it’s much more tangible and measurable than many other aspects of social justice. We can count economic gains but we can’t really count racism or sexism in advertising and how it might produce gains or losses. It surely does have effects and gains and losses, but it’s not so quantifiable.

    So with due attention to the risk of limiting a much broader sense of social justice to an economic equality objective, I think this is worth a lot of investigation. But I don’t have answers. It seems like it would take a lot of studies and statistical analysis to asses whether race-based legal programs or gender-based legal programs will benefit women of color more.

    If you want to talk about technical constitutional law, prohibitions on race discrimination already has more heft than prohibitions on gender discrimination. But that doesn’t say much about how the effects are developing, and in many other federal laws the prohibitions are equal.

    Talking purely about Title VII, the most direct comparison is: does the same statute of limitations apply to race-based pay discrimination as under the gender-based equal pay act? If not, then it is clearly economically in the interests of black women to get behind the Ledbetter amendment. If so, then it’s a wash, I guess.

  63. All-American Girl wrote:

    “for some of you who have renounced feminism, aren’t you only giving into the white male patriachal bullshit system and going against the feminist movement?”–FP

    Dude. Seriously. Quit with the either/or crap. Just because I don’t identify with mainstream (read: white American) feminism, doesn’t mean I don’t still embrace non-racist, non-(NOT ANTI!) American feminist values. (I deplore Gloria Steinem’s NYT’s piece, for example, but appreciate the work she’s done in the past.)

    I haven’t, in my rejection of racism within the mainstream feminist movement, automatically become a racist, sexist, classist white guy.

    Also, above someone suggests that sexism is solely perpetuated by men. That is not true. Women also perpetuate sexism among women. (I think of all the lessons my grandmother *tried* to teach me about women being weaker and less intelligent than men.) In the fight against sexism, many women will have to make changes within their own thinking as well. (Reminds me of Sojourner Truth saying that she could have saved so many more people–if only they had realized they were slaves.)

  64. All-American Girl wrote:

    Doh. Meant Harriet Tubman, of course. Not Sojourner!

  65. Harry Allen wrote:

    Aren’t most “femmes” non-white; i.e., roughly 90% of them?

    As such, wouldn’t any “femme-inism,” if such a thing actually exists, have to eliminate white supremacy, in order to actually promote “the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes”?

  66. Sewere wrote:

    for some of you who have renounced feminism, aren’t you only giving into the white male patriachal bullshit system and going against the feminist movement?

    I can imagine sexist, racist assholes jumping up with joy at this and laughing at us. Maybe I’m just being too dramatic…

    Feminist Punk,

    Honestly I’m starting to get confused by your continuous use of divisive statements. Things don’t always work in a dichotomous “you’re either with us or with the patriarchy”. You’re not George Bush so why subscribe to that way of thinking?

    Did it ever occur to you that perhaps women of color have been fighting against sexism and racism outside of the mainstream feminist and civil rights movement for god knows how long that? Did it occur to you that when says “X does not suit me” that it automatically means “Y is my answer” when “W, Z and Q exist as valid options”? Why would you want to reduce people’s lives and concerns to a narrow set of options instead of letting them define what best suits them?

  67. CuntLovin wrote:

    @ All American Girl
    I have to agree…I myself still identify as a feminist but fully respect the choice of those not to identify as feminist…Why? Because like you said its not an either or choice…Also because words and labels have powers undeniably, however adopting or not adopting a label does not erase the work you do. Powerful positive work for change can be done between people who id as feminist and those who do not. Just as harm can be created, look at the work by ‘mainstream’ feminists during the ‘Sex Wars’ aligining themselves with the conservative right on pornography censorship…so while I respect and understand identities and labels its the work being done that really speaks…

  68. CuntLovin wrote:

    *** Or if you agree with pornography censorship look at Janice Raymonds work as a feminist writer which is nothing short of hate towards gender variant individuals…Renouncing or accepting feminism as an identity doesnt decide if you support or fight against the system…

  69. Sewere wrote:

    Doh! Did it again, that last part should say

    Did it occur to you that when someone says “X does not suit me” that it does not automatically means “Y is my answer” rather that “W, Z and Q exist as valid options for me”? Why would you want to reduce people’s lives and concerns to a narrow set of options instead of letting them define what best suits them?

    Oh joy! I see Harry Allen has joined the conversation

    Aren’t most “femmes” non-white; i.e., roughly 90% of them?

    As such, wouldn’t any “femme-inism,” if such a thing actually exists

    Right because you honestly care about women of color enough by using patronizingly sexist terms like “femmes and femme-inism”

  70. donna darko wrote:

    All race-neutral means is that the definition of feminism is:

    “the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men”

    Women of color’s experiences of sexism intersect with racism and classism. So women of color talk about how they intersect like you did:

    I’ve never been called “weaker” in my life. The stereotype that comes with black women is that we are supposed to be unbreakingly strong. Unceasingly capable. We are not supposed to be weak.

    I have never been asked to fetch coffee. Never. Does that mean sexist shit doesn’t happen to me at work?

  71. donna darko wrote:

    Women of color’s views on how racism, sexism and classism intersect are less prominently displayed so I hope you keep talking.

    I don’t see how Sean Bell and Jena 6, which are definitely huge issues, are feminist issues.

  72. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    @ octogalore–thanks so much for the clarification. I get what you’re saying now…

    @ Sewere–co-sign, esp. about the whole “femme”/”femme-inism” statement. Didn’t get it and not feeling it. At all.

    @ Latoya–”Kyriarchy?” Miss Gurl, you dropped some knowledge on me this day. Damn, I gotta wrap my head around that one…and I *thought* that part of feminism was about economic parity, thus the whole push for equal pay to this day. (Sorry about the rhyme, y’all.) And I know that Angela Davis and other feminists of color address the issue of economic access around reproductive rights, for example…hmm. But I see your point about using economics as a point of reframing advocacy for and with women. Let me think about this one, L.

  73. Black Canseco wrote:

    Feminist Punk!

    I’ve heard the argument/suggestion you posed going all the way back to college–the notion that rejecting the flaws of feminism is “giving aide and comfort to the the enemy” that is white male patriarchy, as GWB might say.

    It didn’t wash then and it doesn’t now.

    To request that Feminism not only be inclusive of WOC but respectful enough to not only allow WOCs to speak for themselves but to also fight for issues relevant to WOC because, after all, WOC’s as much feminine and woman as any anglo woman isn’t aiding the enemy; when feminism won’t fight for WOCs then WOCs must fight for themselves even if that means challenging the sensibilities of their white female counterparts is NOT aiding WMP (White Male Patriachy).

    It’s simply saying that this entrenched level of hypocrisy among white feminists (not you per se) won’t fly anymore. It is saying in short, I’d rather walk alone than run with someone who insists on pulling me back whenever i desire to change the pace of the race.

    The sad fact is that for far too many White Feminists, feminism is a matriarchal, “either/or” proposition: They know what’s best and are forever speaking and acting in the best interest of all women and any challenge from WOCs is some sort of spoiled child ingrate acting out.

    And if WOCs would just recognize that White Feminists are in fact automatically acting in the best interests of all women, them included, then the movement would be okay and “real” progress would continue.

    That’s a big point of division and discrepancy. And at some point, it’s gonna take more that WOCs calming down and getting over race for this problem to get fixed.

    too bad WOCs can’t get with the program.

  74. lori wrote:

    I hope that everyone reads the link to the Bernice Johnson Reagon piece, “Coalition Politics and the Turn of the Century” that Cruel Secretary linked to up there at comment #13. Whoa! What a cool piece!

    I don’t think that just focusing on economic issues is enough, but it is an important place to start. However, before we start there, let’s be sure to read Audre Lorde’s “The Uses of the Erotic.” Here’s a snippet:

    The principal horror of any system which defines the good in terms of profit rather than in terms of human need, or which defines human need to the exclusion of the psychic and emotional components of that need – the principal horror of such a system is that it robs our work of its erotic value, its erotic power and life appeal and fulfillment. Such a system reduces work to a travesty of necessities, a duty by which we earn bread or oblivion for ourselves and those we love. But this is tantamount to blinding a painter and then telling her to improve her work, and to enjoy the act of painting. It is not only next to impossible, it is also profoundly cruel.

    Lorde and other wise people see intersectionality also in economics, love, creativity, and joy.

  75. octogalore wrote:

    “But if in reality what it comes down to is that for black women, their economic well being as a whole really would be improved more by programs and legal gains geared towards race rather than gender, well, maybe it’s true that black women shouldn’t be feminists first when it comes to economic advances. ”

    I think this is heavily individual. For some WOC, they’re more economically affected by gender and for some, by race. I don’t think we can generalize here. Of course, I’m not a WOC, but my sisters are and I work in a placement field with a number of WOC — some who claim they are held back by glass ceiling and others by racism.

    “Is feminism about economic gains for women? That is a fascinating question and one I write about A LOT in other spaces. ”

    Latoya, I’d like to check out some of those writings if you would be so kind to provide a link.

    On that question, I think it is partly but not completely. Not everything boils down to $. But to the extent that (1) it can be a requirment for doing basic things like bill-paying that allow one to focus on other more holistic endeavors, and (2) with it comes power, at all income levels, and why shouldn’t women have as much of that as our male counterparts, it sure factors in.

    I totally agree with your statement that it “should be a key component which is often ignored for the social justice/advocacy aspect of things.” As women, we’re often attracted to the “helping” aspects of things and criticized more so than men when we mention liking money. Whereas with guys that’s just being a good provider. F that.

  76. frances wrote:

    I am a white woman and I think it is VERY important for feminists to understand that feminism is about more than “women.period”. That is so problematic on so many levels and does to women of color what sexism has done to all women all along. White woman have a sad history that it is HIGH time to redress as far as how women of color were treated in earlier waves of feminism.
    I was at a LGBTQ….conference this weekend and a transwoman suggested we leave her out, that it should be LGB. And I disagree, I believe we ALL need to work together, not have all these separate factions of women, immigrants, trans people, black Americans, transnational adoptees – whatever. These fights are all tied up together. And yes, we should all have safe spaces and people will take up specific causes closer to their hearts, and that is a good thing. But I think we need to include more, not exclude more.

  77. NancyP wrote:

    Sometimes I get the impression that there’s some issue or phobia with doing two things at a time. You can apply feminist / queer analyses, but what’s the Big F* Deal about doing race or economic or ….analysis on the same topic? I think there is value in naming individual tools of analysis (gender/ feminist/ sexuality group; class/ economic group; race/ ethnicity group; disability/age group). It reminds you that you might be missing something important.

    I do believe that people are going to specialize in a few defined issues and spend most effort on those issues. However, what’s the problem about taking a break from A and going to expand the crowd at a rally about B, even if you aren’t expert at B. And some topics can span the traditional divisions of feminism, racism, classism/anti-poverty work, etc. I might identify as feminist, but I don’t give a flying F* about misogynistic examples of pop music, mostly because I don’t KNOW pop music. I feel no need to be expert at all things feminist, just know who would be the person to call on. I am most interested in health care access, including comprehensive reproductive health care. Last time I checked, that involved classism/ anti-poverty issues, disability rights, feminism, LGBT issues, ageism(actually “youthism”), racism, undocumented immigrant access (a biggie in health care access nowadays) and language issues, rural access, and probably some others I have forgotten. I don’t know diddly about police brutality beyond what I read in general topic blogs and newspapers, but if someone has a Sean Bell rally in my city, I’ll go.

    I rather like the idea of “kyriarchy”, but still think it useful to go down a standard checklist.

  78. NancyP wrote:

    Lord, we’ve killed a few electrons over this topic in the last week or so…

  79. Torontonian wrote:

    It looks like feminism is mostly about white women, and womanism is mostly about black (or rather African-American) women.

    White women say, “Real women have curves.” Black women think this phrase is moot. And East Asian women may not be considered real women by those who fill in “N/A” to describe Asian women’s breasts and asses.

    Clusterfuck, indeed.

  80. Apostate wrote:

    I hope this doesn’t sound rude, but I’m jumping in without reading everything in the post or the comments. This is partly because I don’t wish to discuss this in what strikes me as hostile territory and partly because I’ve said all I had to say on the issue.

    But just wanted to quickly emphasize 3 things:

    1. Interpret me charitably, in part because I’m often clumsy with the English language (it’s not my native language).

    2. Don’t take my viewpoint to be anything but one Pakistani woman’s unique take on the race/feminism issue. I’m not pretending it speaks for anyone but me, but I do disagree with a lot of the “WOC blogosphere” when they insist that most of the world’s women are more impacted by racism than sexism. Since most countries are not melting pots like America (i.e. majority of the denizens are brown/same color as you) racism is really not as much of an issue.

    Let’s not make an America-centric analysis universal — it’s an annoying trait of white Americans to do that.

    3. Without meaning to cause offense, I have to say that I — as brown as can be, from a former British colony, AND an immigrant — don’t feel comfortable in the Internet’s “WOC” spaces. Throwing that out there to offset what I’ve read from a lot of WOC about not being comfortable in feminist spaces.

    Thanks.

  81. johnjihoonchang wrote:

    Speaking from a broader POV, if you are standing for any group relating to social justice and ignore a sentiment that exists in your group that can or will oppress persons in another group, then you are effectively undermining your own cause because you are no longer interested in the larger “Justice”, but rather your group’s interest. Justice doesn’t balance unless all groups are balanced.

    By taking your position and staking it over the position of another group, you create imbalance (whether intentional or as a result of focusing only on issues you perceive to be related to your own group).

    Perhaps this is an ethereal way of saying, “if we don’t stand together, we fall together because we’re going to be too busy climbing over each other to get up”.

    As a male of color, I will submit that since not all women are treated equally, and, if feminism is concerned about women, then it must also be concerned about making sure that its own (women) are treated equally in itself. Otherwise, it has no moral ground to ask that men treat it equally, since it’s not concerned about the equal treatment of its own members.

    I used to self-identify as a feminist, but I think I can’t do so anymore, because I can’t see any particular issue, even if it’s related to the person of a woman as only affecting women. I feel like I need to seek a paradigm that is entirely inclusive and wholistic, rather than focusing only on issues related to me (religious freedom, asian/asian american, masculinity). Feminism itself won’t be able to achieve its goals if it doesn’t address the problem within men, not just fighting against men, but addressing the issues within men that causes/excuses them to wield their privilege against women, just as anti-racism won’t work until anti-racists resolve also to address issues in whiteness (and racism-creating attitudes within other communities) that create the problem of oppression.

    Er, sorry for the oratory. I guess the philosophy I’m ending up with is that “The problems between YOU and ME can’t be solved until YOU and ME become a WE, and YOUR problems and MY problems become OUR problems.”

    Just a thought.

  82. Grandpa Dinosaur wrote:

    I still care about Feminism because when I get told by my own brother that BECAUSE I’m a Cambodian Woman, I am no different that “white cotton that cannot come clean” so I better not “screw up” or “screw around” that sends alarm bells in my head that there’s something not right in my household.

    Some of my problems created by misogyny and sexism don’t mean a lot to some feminists because it doesn’t effect them.

    It’s “related to my culture.” Like, “oh, but your CULTURE is like that.” And that’s no excuse, that’s sexism to the point of slavery! I’m feeling alienated because I feel that some feminists are PERPETUATING and downplaying the sexist events that I go through every day because it’s a different culture.

    Does it mean I become a Cambodian EXCLUSIVE FEMINIST who only cares about issues that concern Cambodian issues? No! (Plus my heart is pretty big, though this is the only time I admit it. *hurr*)

    Also: I feel bad for Apostate who suffered at the point of racism that she became de-sensitized to it—NO!!! That doesn’t make it okay with racism. Just because you tolerate something that is wrong and hurtful, doesn’t make it right. It doesn’t make it normal. If Apostate wants to say that racism is okay, but sexism isn’t and she needs a safe place for sexism. Okay, me I need both. I am NOT settling for less, because my life MAY be is in jeopardy IF I choose to settle for less.

    I used to get beat up every two day by my mother and father for three years when I was going to high school because I didn’t get good enough grades. Even while I was still raw from those beatings, I went then to school, where I was beat up BY WHITE BOYS everyday (ages 16-19) for being a coloured woman who wouldn’t follow their orders or do their homework (or suck their cocks, those bitter bastards). After a while I got used to being beat up at home and getting into one on ten plus people brawls at school—but then I decided after two years, it was enough and I was going to change things. The beating and the fights stopped because I did not tolerate it anymore and I took a stand. I am glad I took a stand, my life was MUCH BETTER after I worked my ass off to change things. I created a safe place for myself and other’s like me with non-racist teachers who would skin those racist asshole’s asses right off if they caught them and graduated high school happily. Not everyone can get that kind of luck, but everyone needs some kind of safe place.

    I don’t care, let’s talk about it. BECAUSE I NEED MY SAFE PLACE as a woman, coloured or not! I need a place to go when sexism hurts me, I want it and I will create it if no one wants to give it to me by myself. The question is feminism race inclusive or exclusive, is the backwards parts of my culture TOO EXTREME for modern feminism? I need to know so I can take my business elsewhere.

  83. JaliliMaster wrote:

    White women earn 77 cents to the dollar for every white man. Black women earn 67 cents for every dollar. For latino women, it’s something like 56 cents. I’m yet to hear a white ‘feminist’ question why this is so. You’ll only hear them complain about ‘women’ earning only 77 cents for every 1 dollar a white man earns, conveniently leaving out that that figure only applies to white women.

    My attitude to present-day feminism (and frankly, feminism of times past), is that I don’t appreciate being given urine, and told to be happy that atleast, it’s not shit. If I order a steak, am I supposed to smile if I’m instead given a burger?

    One of the many last straws was when I read Barbara Streisand endorsement letter for Hillary Clinton. She actually described having a female president as the ‘last glass ceiling’ to be broken. There are many, such as myself, who would argue that there are a whole lot more glass ceilings in our lives. But mosts feminists (read white feminists), willingly pretend that there isn’t.

    Take the case of Don Imus. I heard so many (white) women saying that it was a sexism issue, not racist. So I wondered why then did a number of zero feminist organisations come out to publicly condemn him? Even NOW only did AFTER they were REPEATEDLY called out on it. Feminism my arse!

  84. AC wrote:

    LaToya – love this post and the thought provoking discussion in the comment thread. I read something earlier today related to this very issue that gave me pause and I’d like to share [sorry I have no clue how to hyperlink or italicize..yet]:

    This comes from Anxious Black Woman. “Why I Will Not Disavow The “Feminist” Label (April 15, 2008). Diary of an Anxious Black Woman. Blogger Pages. http://diaryofananxiousblackwoman.blogspot.com. April 28, 2008.

    “… 1. Did you know, according to Paula Gunn Allen in her 1984 essay, “Who is Your Mother? Red Roots of White Feminism,” that the impetus for theorizing on “natural rights” and “liberties” had a great deal to do with Europeans’ encounter with indigenous American societies, which were often egalitarian and in which women held important leadership positions? Sure, Eurocentrists would rather trace their liberation theory back to King John of England’s 1297 Magna Carta, but such “democratic rights” were decreed by a monarch. How much did the encounter with Native Americans (and women’s roles within the culture) generate the philosophies of Enlightenment, the point that many Western feminists often trace as the origin of feminist theory with Mary Wollstonecraft’s 1792 Vindication of the Rights of Woman?

    2. How many of you ever heard of the name Maria Stewart (1803-1879)? Well, she was a black woman who happened to be the first woman ever in U.S. history to speak in public about women’s rights. Influenced by David Walker’s militant 1829 appeal, she drew on the discourse of black liberation to address feminism. She started in 1831 and would be followed more than five years later with white women abolitionists Sarah and Angelina Grimke, who were loudly criticized by their male counterparts for daring to speak in public as women, as was Maria Stewart. It was this gender discrimination in the anti-slavery community that prompted the formation of a women’s movement to begin with, until woman suffrage became the point (and became the point precisely because so many white women were pissed that black men got the right to vote before them – sound familiar?). … [edited by ac]

    3. In the women’s liberation movement of the 1960s and 1970s, it was another black woman, Florynce Kennedy, who founded the Feminist Party in 1971 and nominated Shirley Chisholm for president of the United States. So, even here, it was black women who politicized the term Feminism to begin with!

    And yet, I’m offering this history because I keep hearing women of color, time and again, echoing words like what Brownfemipower expressed. I’m just reminding everyone that the “Feminist” label belongs to us, as women of color. We laid the foundations for feminist theory and practice. We are the bodies on which feminist theories are created. We are the “comparative” variable and the case study for why “life sucks for women.” It’s because of the combined effects of sexism, racism, imperialism, heterosexism, etc. why we’ve got it bad. And it’s because we “bleed at the intersections” why we, more than any other group of women, need feminist movement. …”
    END QOUTE

    To be honest I felt a little uneducated that I did not know this. But to all those who seek a safer place for woc to exist, be it womanist or elsewhere I say – you do what you have to do to take care of you, I respect and support that.

    I respect it but I am going to stay here in our* movement and continue being “an angry woc” until all the race-neutral feminists and the “we-decide-what-is-feminists” feminists either shape up or decamp to their own damn movement.

    *”Our” being defined as women of color and all women who are concerned with issues of intersectionality*

    My message to the above mentioned rn and wdwif feminists? Stop wading in and making everything all about you, you, you. Stop walking across our backs like we’re your personal bridges!* If you can’t deal with intersectionality then go make your own movement. Stop assuming white is the automatic default setting for everything.

    *cite to ” This Bridge Called My Back: Writings by Radical Women of Color”
    by Cherrie Moraga, Gloria Anzaldua.

    With that, I hereby officially decree the feminist movement restored to the factory default setting of COLOR. Go start your own dang movement if that’s a problem for you.

    *” mmmm..salty” she thinks …giggles wickedly *

  85. JaliliMaster wrote:

    And forgive me if I don’t subscribe to this whole idea of the feminism movement being ‘diluted’ by other isms. Feminism is not a new thing. It’s been around for quite some time now. Yet for all these years, WOC have had these complaints about their treatment in feminist organisations, and as usual, they wre dismissed.

    I CANNOT seperate fighting against racism and fighting against sexism. They are intertwined. Atleast in my life. The sexist stereotypes affectin white women are not the same stereotypes affecting black women, nor the same ones affecting asian or latino women, etc. So when a white feminist comes out to complain about being seen as weak and told to get coffee, how am I supposed to relate? If I’m sent to get coffee, I know it’s not because I’m a woman but because I’m black. But a black man would not be sent to get the coffee. Same goes for if I’m seen as incompetent, unintelligent etc. But that in no way means that I can’t suffer these indignities due to my gender. All it means is that if I’m going to be denied a job that I am well qualified for, it ain’t cos I got a p*ssy!

  86. donna darko wrote:

    I will submit that since not all women are treated equally, and, if feminism is concerned about women, then it must also be concerned about making sure that its own (women) are treated equally in itself. Otherwise, it has no moral ground to ask that men treat it equally, since it’s not concerned about the equal treatment of its own members.

    Anti-racist movements have no moral ground to ask that whites treat them equally if they’re not concerned about the equal treatment of women.

    Sometimes I get the impression that there’s some issue or phobia with doing two things at a time. You can apply feminist / queer analyses, but what’s the Big F* Deal about doing race or economic or ….analysis on the same topic?

    Intersectionality should be a part of all social movements. I get suspicious it’s only demanded of women. Why don’t anti-racist movements have feminist or class analyses?

  87. jvansteppes wrote:

    The idea that feminism is about equality with men is particularly limited when you ask yourself WHICH men you want to be equal to. As a place to start from, this idea that the main axis of inequality is based on undifferentiated groups of men and women is fucked. Oh, if only a rich CEO lady could be equal to her janitor!

    Frankly I wonder what is up with this business of complaining about race issues invading discussions of gender. If feminist activist groups don’t address issues of race, poverty or sexuality then a shitload of women are bound to be excluded.

    I don’t understand why anyone interested in dealing with gender issues WOULDN’T care about those of race: how can you care about gender justice and not care about racial justice?

  88. jvansteppes wrote:

    I am also reminded of a college group I was part of that split into 2 groups: the people for and the people against the idea of having a women’s only space at the local women’s centre. Alarm bells sounded off for me when one of the space’s white proponents argued that if they opened the space up, what would we do if some loud men of color came in, played loud music and wouldn’t leave?

    What makes a space ’safe’ for being ‘women’s only’ if racism is allowed to run rampant? Or even in relation to personal power issues. In every discussion our group had, it was obnoxious, loud white women arguing for women’s only spaces while other people tried to explain that space can’t be declared ’safe’ just because it’s women’s only.

  89. Bob Simpson wrote:

    Race neutral= Neutral on bigotry.
    Colorblind= Blind to bigotry.

    One thing about racism that not often mentioned is how it has seriously dumbed down generations of white people.

    Its amazing how resistant some people are to even the most basic education about American society and history.

    I’m a former history teacher and frankly, I’m clueless as to how to overcome that type of stubborn white resistance.

    People have been debating this shit since forever and here we are again.

    I know I’m getting weary…very weary.

  90. lm wrote:

    “for some of you who have renounced feminism, aren’t you only giving into the white male patriachal bullshit system and going against the feminist movement?”

    No. IMHO, that’s way too similar to saying that pro-black is the same as anti-white.

    Anti-feminist is not the same as pro-patriarchy. I’m sue there are some people that wish it were, but life is not that binary.

    And another thing: In this context, the “mainstream feminist movement” is NOT the same as “the notion that women are equal”.

    I think that might be one of the kernels LP is trying to get us to discuss.

  91. lm wrote:

    Or, what AC said.

  92. jal__n wrote:

    this post is way comment-ful and it’s late, so forgive me if this is redundant. i haven’t read everything…

    i would defend the use of the word ‘feminist’ over ‘womanist’ because my first question to the latter is, if we understand gender and sexuality to be a spectrum, who determines who gets to be a woman? while transgendered folks may be a small minority, the inclusivity is significant to me.

    i struggled with my notion of ‘feminist’ a lot while working on the davis feminist film festival for the last 2 years. our working definition felt at first so broad as to be almost useless…when you define what something is, you also implicitly define what something is not. my feminism strives to be inclusive, so this is tricky. i feel like i’m pretty reconciled with things at the moment, and this excerpt from the intro of our program explains my perspective as well as i know how:

    “So why feminist? Indeed, we ourselves were conscious of our options in choosing the title for a gender-focused film festival. We chose to organize this as a feminist festival because many people, not only women, are excluded from the media machines, including working class men, people of color, alternatively abled, queer and transgendered folks. In choosing the word feminist, we decided to include films based not only upon the gender identity of the filmmaker, but upon positionality and viewpoint. As is stated so succinctly by theorist bell hooks, “feminism is a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression”. Since feminism is the word that names these values, we use it in the name of the festival and in our lives.

    Inequality is still gendered. Yet we understand that gender cannot be separated from race, class, or sexuality, and the films in this program reveal many of these intersections. We hope that these films will challenge stereotypes, and question the way we think about gender and the matrices of oppression that each of us encounter, in different ways and
    from various standpoints, but affected nonetheless.”

    i wish that this was a more widely taken approach to the topic, but i understand that it isn’t — and that it’s still an intimidating, messy, history-laden word. i was blown away to discover that ours was the first to appear in a google search for ‘feminist film festival’ — it doesn’t make it into anyone else’s name right now. white women get a lot more microphones and still seem to like running the show, and not being burdened by worry that speaking against patriarchy is adding to the stereotypes against the men of my race is a huge privelege. not understanding that these differences exist — or worse, denying them — is divisive, so working in solidarity against other oppressions serves feminism and the fight against my own oppressions: though i am a white woman currently in a heterosexual, monogamous relationship, these intersecting oppressions are personal.

    i don’t know if any of this means anything, but consider this one advocate for hanging on to the word ‘feminist,’ and for maintaining a critical dialogue about whiteness at the same time.

  93. Cat wrote:

    @Apostate
    3. Without meaning to cause offense, I have to say that I — as brown as can be, from a former British colony, AND an immigrant — don’t feel comfortable in the Internet’s “WOC” spaces. Throwing that out there to offset what I’ve read from a lot of WOC about not being comfortable in feminist spaces.

    I’d really like to know why you feel this way.

    Thank you, Latoya, for this post… it makes me exceedingly grateful for my Women’s Studies professor, who -as a white feminist- has pushed so hard for us to have a multicultural look at feminism and has really encouraged me to speak out as a WOC, specifically being a Filipina woman who doesn’t really fit into categories like ‘black’, ‘latina’ or even ‘asian’. It’s been really encouraging, and I wish everyone were so lucky.

  94. Jaye wrote:

    As post #29 noted, it is absolutely true that men of color have, in general, not been supportive of WOC feminists. However, the same could be said for white feminists. White feminists talk about issues dealing with them as women, and some of the pertains to WOC. MOC talk about issues dealing with race, and some of that obviously pertains to WOC. But the lack of support from MOC, I don’t know, is that supposed to justify the lack of support from white feminists (and vice-versa)? And I personally agree that a line does need to be drawn, that in a feminist movement, even though what happens to MOC affects WOC, the focus needs to be on women-centered issues. But the thing is, that’s not even happening. It’s not that white feminists were more than happy to address the concerns and needs of WOC, and WOC also wanted to talk about MOC, and then white feminists felt that was too broad. I mean, the line “This is why a race-centric analysis of women’s issues bothers me. Feminism is about women, period. It’s race-neutral.” says it all. The reality is that white feminists aren’t unwilling to talk about the issues of MOC, they’re unwilling to talk about the issues of WOC. I have never read about WOC talking about unhappy they are with white feminism because white feminists are unwilling to talk about MOC. I mean, I’m sure it must have happened somewhere at sometime, but in general, what I’m hearing is about intersectionality, that white feminists are unwilling to recognize that WOC face different issues from white feminists because of the intersection of race and gender.

    And for post #80, I do not want to diminish the sexism you may have encountered in your life. But I did want to disagree with your statement “Since most countries are not melting pots like America (i.e. majority of the denizens are brown/same color as you) racism is really not as much of an issue.” Racism absolutely IS an issue, because the reasons many developing countries such as Pakistan have high levels of poverty, is because they are former colonies, and because they are subject to the continued racist economic global policies forced on them by Western-white countries. The daily lives of people are informed by the fact that they cannot make enough money to feed themselves, and that is a direct result of racism. Don’t women from these countries experience a double assault? Their husbands and sons and fathers cannot find jobs because of globalized racism so they go hungry, and they experience the institutionalized sexism seen around the world.

  95. Diana wrote:

    I don’t think you can have a race-neutral discussion about feminism. There is a whole group of women who experience double-marginalization and our existence is necessarily shaped by both race and gender. Ignoring the subtext of race and how racial identity impacts gender issues would distort reality as women of color experience it.

  96. Linda wrote:

    I can see where all sides are coming from. For me, my race cannot be separated from my gender, but at the same time I don’t think that every ism should be included in to Feminism. If they are, then every anti-racism, pro-LGBT, Human rights group should also include womans rights, but unfortunately many times they don’t. I can understand where Latoya is coming from and happen to agree with her analysis, but at the same time I can also understand where Apostate is coming from.

    We all know that sexism does not get as much attention in the media as racism. The fact that many people could not even interpret Don Imus’ comment “nappy headed hoes” as both racist and SEXIST says a lot! People only concentrated on the racist part; it even seemed that many feminists not just the white ones ignored the sexism in his comment and shrugged it off as just racist! For some WoC depending on where you were raised the later part of his comment was more offensive than the former part.

    I don’t think that Apostate has become desensitized to racism, I think that her analysis of racism is different, just like many other PoC. When she said “Without meaning to cause offense, I have to say that I — as brown as can be, from a former British colony, AND an immigrant — don’t feel comfortable in the Internet’s “WoC” spaces. Throwing that out there to offset what I’ve read from a lot of WoC about not being comfortable in feminist spaces.” I can see where she is coming from. The entire worlds perspective on racism is NOT the same as the United States. The US is a melting pot compared to the majority of countries around the world. We don’t all have the same culture, religion and even the same oppressor. I don’t analyze race relations based on the American model! My family has a historical history of 2 racial oppressors then add religion, culture, gender and everything else! The term WoC still tends to alienate other women as has been posted by other “WoC”. Not all Black women have the same experiences. Being a Black woman, my experience and perspective is at times very different from other Black women, and other times the same.

  97. Persia wrote:

    I don’t think I could leave feminism for womanism. Feminism means too much to me to leave it– feminism means, for me, the vote, the ability to work, the choices I have had. I realize those things are more valuable and meaningful to me because of my status as a middle-class white woman, but they’re still valuable. And I feel like leaving feminism would be betraying all the good work the movement has done. I feel like my obligation is to be a better feminist, to work harder, to continue trying to level the playing field for everyone.

    I don’t want to leave feminism. I want a better feminism, and I’m optimistic (and possibly crazy) enough to think that’s possible.

    I understand why some women don’t want to call themselves feminists, and I get the impulse behind the ‘womanist’ movement, but in the end, that’s where I’m at.

  98. johnjihoonchang wrote:

    Donna Darko – I’m with you, anti-sexism must be a part of anti-racism as well. I was just making a general post replying to the demand that matters of race be left out of feminism. My overall point is that no justice can be achieved without all groups addressing all injustice in unison and without accepting the problems of another as your own, you have no moral ground to demand justice, since conceptually it transcends any individual group.

  99. Renee wrote:

    Feminism can only be “race neutral” if its main concern is to create a monolithic woman. Since white in our culture is accepted as the “norm”, neutrality infers the invisibility of ALL women of color. I choose to identify as a womanist simply because I must negotiate race, class and gender in my daily existence. When women were being raped during slavery, it was because we were women and specifically because we were black. Race and gender cannot be separated in the lives of WOC.
    The desperate desire on the part of white women to maintain a neutral feminism, is based in their desire to keep feminism focused on the issues of white women of a certain class. It is alienating not only to women of color, but to queer women, trans gender women, and disabled women. Through the process of silencing the aforementioned groups are created as ‘other’, thus reinforcing the hegemonic role that white women seek to assert in feminism. If this is truly about solidarity why is it difficult to understand that in our daily lives women will necessarily be confronted by a myriad of experiences that will seek to reduce us? Why are the struggles of women who do not fit into dominant feminist theory reduced to being described as distractionary tactics? If it is true that the personal is political, then I claim the right to assert that my race, my gender and my class effect the lens through which I am viewed and ultimately play a large role in how I must live my life.

  100. mhal wrote:

    JaliliMaster wrote:

    White women earn 77 cents to the dollar for every white man. Black women earn 67 cents for every dollar. For latino women, it’s something like 56 cents. I’m yet to hear a white ‘feminist’ question why this is so.

    I recognize that, as a white woman I am part of the problem. I want to also be a part of the solution. I realize and recognize that white feminists have a deplorable history of marginalization of women of color and I know of many white feminists who want to rectify and improve this situation. I realize that I live in a racist society and there is racism in me no matter how liberal and ‘enlightened’ I am, no matter how many friends of color I have and even though I experience marginalization of my own as a queer woman. I know there are things I will never understand that people of color experience all the time and I”m doing my best to do anti-racism work on myself, my family and my friends. Not ALL white women are total and utter failures at recognizing the issues or race and the legacy and abundance of racism even though it might feel that way much of the time.

  101. Grandpa Dinosaur wrote:

    Apostate said she was speaking on her own behalf, as she says: “one Pakistani woman’s unique take on the race/feminism issue. I’m not pretending it speaks for anyone but I do disagree with a lot of the “WOC blogosphere” when they insist that most of the world’s women are more impacted by racism than sexism. (…)”

    I can see where she is coming from, but I am not Apostate and she is not me. I can sympathize with her view point and do, but at the same time I cannot endure racism as well. In fact I can’t endure racism with grace at all.

    Her analysis of racism IS obviously different than mine. And I live is Canada, so, it’s slightly different. Plus in my teenage to adult years, I moved to an area that was basically 200 white people to one coloured person. Away from Toronto, which is like a place of it’s own. I have a different outlook on racism when people are blatantly allowing their dogs to attack me on the street in broad daylight.

    I am also speaking on my own behalf, I consider anyone’s racist fueled hatred that is strong enough to kill or maim me a threat. If it were just name calling alone, maybe I could deal with it better and more responsibly.

  102. Jaye wrote:

    re: post #100

    what you say is absolutely true. i think those ideas are reflected in latoya’s post ‘recognizing your own bias’. when you experience white people’s racism and ignorance, it is easy to forget that some white women in my life have been more anti-racist and conscious than a lot of the WOC in my life. when you experience sexism, it is easy to forget all the times that men have tried to be more aware and anti-sexist than a lot of women i know have been.

  103. octogalore wrote:

    @Renee: “The desperate desire on the part of white women to maintain a neutral feminism, is based in their desire to keep feminism focused on the issues of white women of a certain class. It is alienating not only to women of color, but to queer women, trans gender women, and disabled women”

    Probably more accurate and fair to say “women” here, no? Your suggestion is insulting to WOC in that it indicates that their priorities are never that of “women of a certain class.” For example, one of the moms at my daughter’s school is black, she’s among the wealthiest there and she is not as liberal on queer, trans or even WOC issues as many white women. Not to knock her, she’s a friend of mine although we don’t always think alike. But your dichotomy of WOC = care about intersectional analysis and white women = only care about weathy women issues isn’t fair to women of any color.

    Some white women do seem to shy away from intersectional analysis or only want to discuss it as a footnote. We all know they exist. Others want feminism to be about all liberal issues. Yet others want feminism to include much more intersectional analysis such that it becomes NOT intersectional but part of feminism itself, with the continuing theme of feminism being about women, but ALL women. (Guess which group I’m in). Reading the arguments from white women as all fitting into the first group is not only fair but inaccurate.

  104. octogalore wrote:

    Oops, meant unfair in last sentence.

  105. Tanglad wrote:

    Apostate said: “Since most countries are not melting pots like America (i.e. majority of the denizens are brown/same color as you) racism is really not as much of an issue.”

    I used to think this too, but not anymore. Indigenous Filipinos such as the Aeta are subject to much racism in the Philippines. Slurs like “You look like an Aeta” are common. There are also hostilities against the ethnic Chinese, against Hindu merchants, and most recently, the Muslim communities both in Manila and further down south.

    In other parts of Asia, race is definitely an issue for the children of US soldiers in the Philippines (esp. if the dad is black), in Vietnam, in Korea. Hakka and non-Fukienese Chinese in Taiwan. The Ainu in Japan. That the “majority of the denizens are brown/same color” just renders the racism as more invisible, unless you’re affected directly. Also, there are already strong racial divides in the growing world cities in Asia (Shanghai, Singapore, Dubai, etc), and these divides will be more apparent as globalization fuels migration around Asia.

  106. NancyP wrote:

    The last week or two have been valuable reading experiences, however painful it has been for the principals. Here’s hoping that lots of learning will continue.

  107. Mieko wrote:

    i’m actually really confused, i see the whole ‘why are white feminists so exclusive’ thing, but i dont think they presume to exclude anyone or assume they are including all women, they are just writing about their own experience, so implicit in that is a racial experience of their own as white women, and i think people reading for example, the feminine mystique or the beauty myth or whatever can glean what demographic those issues apply to without the authors having to state every time ‘college educated white collar women.’ i guess they could specify their race/class rather than ‘women’ or women of color can just take what they like/do relate to and leave what they do not. maybe that is what that blogger meant?

    and i’d also like to point out that i think within ‘white’ women, there is a strong resentment against the feminist movement for classism, as working class women dealing with for example domestic violence would not really share the same issues as college educated women exploring the glass ceiling problems as they try to rise to CEO. it’s unfair to assume white feminism has only let down minorities, which I think is the focus in your article. so i think there is a class dimension as well that needs to be addressed for minorities as well, as all minority women would have very different outlooks based on their economic status. for example, upwardly mobile asian american women concerned with identity issues versus recent immigrants working in sweatshops. so no one should really assume they speak for everyone in their ‘category’, or that they understand everyone’s challenges.

    for the most part though i think you can make a label mean whatever you like, but if you’re going by what society thinks, i get the impression that the label of feminist is pretty much useless these days, and only seems to make people annoyed. oddly though, in one of my classes when the professor asked ‘who considers themselves a feminist’ , no women raised their hands, only one black guy did (1 in one class), a white guy in my other class did too…i remarked on this to my friend, and he said he identifies as a feminist (he’s korean) because he had an influential teacher in highschool who taught him it was important (white female teacher) and he applies the feminist concepts he learned to his mother’s life, and identifies her as a strong feminist. i dont think he ever stopped to think about whether the feminist movement in america was too white for him, i think he just took concepts from it that made sense to his experience.

  108. donna darko wrote:

    The idea that feminism is about equality with men is particularly limited when you ask yourself WHICH men you want to be equal to.

    Usually men of the same color but those battling white supremacist capitalist patriarchy battle everything at the same time, white men, men of color, white women, capitalism, homophobia, disablism, poverty.

    But the lack of support from MOC, I don’t know, is that supposed to justify the lack of support from white feminists (and vice-versa)?

    I’m one of the few who see an imbalance. Making anti-racism feminist is half the battle. Instead of turning feminism into anti-racism, immigration reform, prison reform, giving these movements gender analyses is half the battle.

    Race-neutral means feminism is basically the same in every country. The issues are different but feminism is pretty universal: “the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.”

  109. Helen wrote:

    Yes, Feminism must address racism. Just because one suffers as a result of an “ism” does not 1) exempt that individual from having “isms”, or 2) addressing their own “isms”.

    In North America, racism is pervasive, both personal and institutional. Racism is very much like dust in one’s house: you don’t have to do a single thing (other than to exist) for it to accumulate unnoticed; your responsibility is to remove it which takes regular, consistent effort.

    Women of color that I know generally do not self-identify with feminism because they have been made to feel that they are “black women, rather than women who are black”.

    As painful as this discussion maybe for many of us, I am glad that this issue is being raised in such a widespread and substantive way.

  110. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Still working on other posts, so I can’t comment too closely now, but the conversation is great y’all!

    Octogalore – Yes, I spend a lot of time talking about women and money, made sure I walked the walk when interviewing Suze Orman for Clutch Magazine and just (like yesterday) finalized a piece for Bitch Magazine about the mixed messages women get about money in magazines, specifically when compared to their male counterparts. Let me check with the eds to see when it will be on the newsstands….

  111. octogalore wrote:

    I’m looking forward to checking those out, definitely post links and issue dates when available, thanks!

  112. BLackamazon wrote:

    * cabbage patches * GO latoya Go Latoy ait’s your birthday get your write on

  113. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    LMAO @ BlackAmazon.

  114. kiki wrote:

    Since most countries are not melting pots like America (i.e. majority of the denizens are brown/same color as you) racism is really not as much of an issue.

    Let’s not make an America-centric analysis universal — it’s an annoying trait of white Americans to do that.

    I am an American currently living in Europe and I have to say that these issues are not unique to the US…far from it. Just pick up any European newspaper or visit the marginalized section of practically any city regardless of country and you’ll find that racism is very much of an issue.

    And I hate the term melting pot…it is a term used by whites who believe that everyone should be homogenized into one bland, milk colored soup that is palatable to those with even the weakest of constitutions. No thanks. We need more salt and spice…not less!

  115. macintyre wrote:

    “and i’d also like to point out that i think within ‘white’ women, there is a strong resentment against the feminist movement for classism, as working class women dealing with for example domestic violence would not really share the same issues as college educated women exploring the glass ceiling problems as they try to rise to CEO.”

    Absolutely true. But on the other hand, I think it’s important to recognize that people (of whatever color/class/gender/orientation) naturally get most easily fired up about the injustice they PERSONALLY experience in their lives. So for me, even though I know intellectually that I have a pretty damn privileged life as an Ivy-educated white lawyer blah blah blah, when I read those figures about how only 5% of law firm partners are men, and how I still earn less than male lawyers in my class, and how women who negotiate for higher salaries are seen as b*tches whereas men who negotiate are seen as tought and smart…well…I get PISSED, personally, reflexively angry. And I want to put my energy into changing that situation, because it touches me in such an immediate way.

    On the other hand, to get equally pissed about injustice faced by others takes a somewaht willful act of imagination and compassion. It’s not so “natural” to take up another’s cause as it is to get angry about your own situation.

    But I don’t think this natural short-sightedness of outrage is to be condemned. After all, if we’re not outraged and energized by our own discrimination, how can we be open to the discrimination everyone else faces? Conciousness raising has to start with the self, and then move on to the rest of the world. It’s normal and good to want to help yourself; that’s just the way ALL humans are — we want to improve. The challenge is to then move on to the rest of the world.

    But then the key question becomes: is my fight for my own interests hurting other’s fights for their interests? In my little world, I think the answer is no, but I think the collosal mistake of white feminists has been to assume that the interests they’re fighting for are universal; and if not immedeiatly universal, then will at least “trickle down” to all women.

  116. macintyre wrote:

    “5% of law firm partners are men”

    – oops, meant that only 5% are “women,” of course.

  117. pg wrote:

    phenomenal writing! as a white woman committed to uprooting racism and sexism, i deeply appreciate your willingness to think through and produce a powerful analysis of our current situation. thanks for a true piece of work.

  118. octogalore wrote:

    macintyre — I like your comment. My background’s about the same except I’m a former lawyer now in search.

    You have a good point — it takes empathy and guts but is absolutely critical to reach beyond issues that affect us individually. I think both are important. If the percentage stays 16% (it’s actually not 5% female partners but 16%; perhaps you meant 5% equity partners?), that’s a problem even if we don’t think there are more far-reaching effects to getting more women in power than just helping those women (I happen to think there are). Because if feminism discourages women from feeling they deserve to aim high, or doesn’t counter what you say about the world telling us we’re “bitches” if we do, that’s a problem.

    But, balance is important. Not all women have the privilege or access to find such issues of relevance. It’s easier to focus on the immediate but critical to look outside it and see how our skills, interests and available time could also be focused around dealing with these access issues. I’d love it if some of us in the feminist blogosphere could do some brainstorming around these issues.

  119. macintyre wrote:

    come back to the fold, octogalore…

    “If the percentage stays 16% (it’s actually not 5% female partners but 16%; perhaps you meant 5% equity partners?)”

    You caught me – I just put 5% to mean “really not very many at all.” But I did some googling and it seems that 16% is the number given for nationwide averages (equity and non, I assume) 16% equity is considered at the top of the pack for white shoe firms:
    http://www.flextimelawyers.com/best/best.pdf

    And of course that doesn’t break it down for race – minority women equity partners are probably something around 2% at best:

    http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2008/03/women-of-color.html

    Speaking of WOC law partners, let’s hear it for Michelle Roberts, one of the most feared/beloved trial lawyers in DC (depending on which side of the courtroom you’re on!)

    “‘Like it or not, there remains both covert and overt discrimination in law firms. Period,’ Roberts said in her signature blunt style. ”

    http://www.law.com/jsp/ihc/PubArticleIHC.jsp?id=1174381422973

    To come full circle, I’d say that for myself, self-interested attention to fairness in my profession is precisely what lead me to read about people like Michelle Roberts and start thinking about race as well as gender.

  120. donna darko wrote:

    Feminism must address racism.

    Racism should be an integral part of feminism. Women of color must continue to speak out on how racism and sexism intertwine. But white feminists must put nonwhite women in decision-making positions so that racism is an integral part of feminism.

  121. Radfem wrote:

    Great post, and really good discussion. I’m White and a former feminist. I have learned that for most of us, addressing our oppression(s) is much easier than addressing our privilege. It’s not pretty even amongs ourselves and it’s going to be worse against women of color as had been seen, because of the inability to admit that our actions including our activism can have a detrimental effect on other women is so strong. It’s like they believe that if they even admit to privileges, they can’t be feminists themselves.

    And the discomfort with dealing with complicity in structural racism becomes much more important than addressing racism itself.

    Then there are statements from White feminists claiming that they can’t work on issues that directly impact them. That’s what comes from questioning White feminists for defining issues as they are impacted by them, purportedly under the category of “women’s issues” as if they impact all women the way they impact White women. If you question, suddenly it’s telling them they can’t work on issues that impact their lives, which delineates the idea that issues pertaining to White women are so closely tied to the identity of “women’s issues” in their minds.

    for some of you who have renounced feminism, aren’t you only giving into the white male patriachal bullshit system and going against the feminist movement?

    I feel like I’d be doing that more if I stayed with it. I don’t feel comfortable with the “patriarchy” as a focal point. And there are many times I don’t feel like the “white male patriarchal bullshit system” and the “feminist movement” are on different paths but converge.

    Often, it feels like White feminists aren’t interested in dismantling “patriarchy” as it’s called but a power shift within it. Erasing “patriarchy” doesn’t make racism, classism for example go away, but many feminists seem to think it’s all about ending the “patriarchy” (with the word itself being problematic) in the same way, some progressives think that it’s all tied to class and if you get rid of class and classism, racism and sexism will go away when many progressive movements have both.

    If they are renouncing classism and classism is the root of racism and sexism, then why are the progressive movements themselves practicing racism and sexism?

    If White feminists are so dedicated to ending “patriarchy” which is the root of racism and sexism and renounce it, then why is racism practiced by White feminists?

    Sudy’s blog posting on kyriarchy (Elisabeth Schussler Fiorenza ) is excellent in my opinion.

    The Seal Press and Amanda Marcotte situations and discussions really hit that in my opinion too. Isn’t Seal Press supposed to address sexism in the publishing field by promoting female authors? But what is it doing instead? Saying women of color aren’t commercially viable, not publishing women of color, slamming women of color, publishing pictures of racist stereotypes to sell a “feminist” book after already being taken to task about a racially offensive cover. The defense of all these things by many (but not all White feminists/women) just seems to reinforce the ideal of the patriarchy simply making room in its structure for White women. White feminists say that Women of color have to choose gender over race when White women forget conveniently how often we ourselves choose race over gender (proposition 209 in California anyone? The anti-AA initiatives in states where over 50% of White women voted for them?).

    There are things about feminism that I feel are good, exciting but it’s structured in many ways with the same racism, sexism, homophobia and ableism that society is and the response to that is that it’s not there.

    I can imagine sexist, racist assholes jumping up with joy at this and laughing at us. Maybe I’m just being too dramatic…

    So what? Not being a feminist doesn’t mean you’re not fighting racism and sexism. Not at all. The vast majority of the women I know and have met don’t call themselves feminist.

    People are always going to laugh at you. There’s people who read my blog every day just to laugh at it. People laugh and have always laughed at women fighting racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism. Even the female sufferagettes were laughed at.

    I’ve learned that often behind that laughter is often fear and I think that the adage that Mahatma Gandhi said about the different reactions that those fighting and working for change will receive from those who oppose them is very true.

    You can’t control what the racist sexist assholes do or how they react to what you do or say. What you can do is work hard on women’s issues and keep working on them. There are those who will laugh at you as a tool to try to stop you. It’s very unfortunate that often times, that’s one of your litmus test for keeping going and how effective women’s actions indeed are.

  122. shah8 wrote:

    is there a moderation queue here?

  123. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    shah8 –

    Yes, we mod and we have a lot of spam problems. If you don’t see your comments, it probably got lost in the filter, sorry!

  124. Davita Cuttita wrote:

    “Race neutral” feminism, is, as others have pointed out on here; simply “White” because hey; White people are the default race while the rest of us are just genetic mutations that got a little too close to the sun.

    I am a female, Black anti-feminist. UNICEF and Tampax do more for oppressed women–the women in the Congo, the women in Jamaica, the women in Haiti, the women in Asia, the women in Columbia–than feminism ever has or ever will do.

    I will role up my sleeves with them and continue to fight.

  125. shah8 wrote:

    This is an utterly awesome thread, much more (at least personally) useful and germane conversation. I mean Kyriarchy? Damn, I used to use the name Octavia Butler or think of her books, since Kyriarchy was her ouvre. Maybe I’ll get used to thinking in that term.

    Ocatalore, your post waaaay back in the 50s or so reminded me a helluva lot like Rick Santorum’s Man on Dog thing. I did the same thing as a sophormoric debater in college–saying that pedophiles and homosexuals belong in the same group of association simply because the two of them aren’t the same as heterosexuals. In the ensuing email flame war, nobody ever attacked my premise by saying it was outrageously and unfairly normative to say that there are heterosexuals and everyone else. It was mostly just people saying that I was an asshole (which I was), or saying that I was really, really wrong, with very little evidence to back there opinion up…After all, I *was* right (and hey, doesn’t anyone love being right in the face of all the idiot naysayers). Setup the question to sort of beg the question, and as long as nobody attacks the premise and underlying assumptions as bloody idiotic, and you can be forever right as well.

    Now…let’s find that comment…

    Ah, yes… at comment 57 octagalore said


    If all issues impacting on women were feminist issues, then pretty much anything would be. Environmentalism. Health care. Prisons. War. Testicular cancer and its affect on the female sex life. These all affect women and should be discussed as such, but if feminist blogs had to cover all issues without focusing in on affect on women, the movement would lose its efficacy, IMO.

    Your premise is… at its root…that gendering and gender norms is tightly coupled to who has what gonads. I think that this is wrong. Gendering applies just as much to sexual dominance in prisons between guards, high on the totem pole prisoners, low on the totem pole prisoners, and people on the outside–in the prison industry, and you might find that you are talking about NO women. However, that is an intrinsicly feminist issue. Some people get to be “men”, some people get to be “bitches”, and it still is enforced despite actual sexes. Works in wars too…Manly Spartans vs girly girl homo Thebans (probably not the actual chalkboard talk, but you know what I mean).

    I believe that you are being far too essentiallist when you describe all the things feminism can’t be about. Ultimately, I believe that feminism isn’t about who has a vagina and who doesn’t. Feminism is about the *narrative* of who has (or thought to have) a vagina and who doesn’t. If you thought that feminism is that tied to gonads, you would have alot of trouble understanding why certain men are so much more troubled by two men in an intimate relationship, and who want to marry, than two women who share the same characteristics.

    And so forth as it goes. Feminism is relevant to the environment, because people’s attitudes towards use and preservation of nature and natural resources can be highly sexualized.

    It’s just a tool, woman. It’s not made up of women. Oh, and…check out the latest xkcd comic…totally awesome.

  126. shah8 wrote:

    So, if my comment is trapped in the spam filter, how do I get it to post? Cutting it up in pieces?

    Mod Note: Just drop an email to team@racialicious.com and we’ll try to find it. I just found yours!

  127. macintyre wrote:

    Davita – I guess your post brings home to me that I’m confused about what people are talking about when they talk about “feminism.” When you say you’re an anti-feminist, does that mean you’re anti-NOW and anti-women’s studies departments? Because I’m pretty sure that there are plenty of UNICEF aid workers who consider themselves “feminists,” inasmuch as they see that women and children are hit hardest by poverty and want to stop that.

    But anyway, yeah, whoever invented Tampax has done more good for womankind than a million women’s studies professors ever will :) Not to be hating on the academics, but a girl’s gotta have priorities.

  128. shah8 wrote:

    Ah, I see it posted…

    As a coda, I just want to say that you cannot split feminism as a perceptual tool from feminism as a social movement, since what truly allows women the ability to assert their participation and enjoyment of human rights is that basis in analysis of the stories that make up our existence.

    As such, it gets to be an unavoidable fact that you get fellow travelers that may be strange and/or hostile, and that you find yourself arguing about things that are pretty far from your personal interests, or even of women in general. Justice has a nasty tendency to not exist unless it exists for everyone.

  129. octogalore wrote:

    Shah8 – I found your response interesting but unresponsive to my point. Also, the comparison to Rick Santorum was gratuitous and inapt.

    My point was, as you quoted: “if feminist blogs had to cover all issues without focusing in on affect on women, the movement would lose its efficacy, IMO”

    Now, obviously if war, prison or environment is discussed with relation to the gendered aspects, then it’s a feminist issue by this definition. If you were trying to engage me honestly, you would have first inquired whether by “women” I may have been referring colloquially to gender and assumptions relating to gender. This isn’t a women’s studies thesis (note: maybe you should request that it be entitled “gender studies” in universities where it isn’t already), it’s a blog comment. I speak in simple terms sometimes, in your case you do things like misspell my blog name and various other words. And so forth as it goes. If we’re trying to talk and not debate, we need to actually attempt to understand rather than launch into comparisons with right wing homophobes.

    I would consider, for example, reasons Marc Antony dressed in drag to be feminist issues. I don’t believe he possessed a vagina. I wrote an essay back in the dark ages about this, in fact. If I’d simply written about the play, it would not be a feminist issue in and of itself. Similarly with the examples I gave – environment, prisons, etc. Al Gore’s movie wasn’t a feminist movie. The show “Oz” does have various elements which would lend themselves to a feminist discussion.

    Simply using the person you feel is putting forward a different point of view as a foil to show off your college debate skills and knowledge of ancient Greece is a dubious way to have a dialogue. Maybe it’s an effective way to win a debate – but pick somebody else, friend. I’m no stranger to moot court either.

  130. octogalore wrote:

    @macintyre: “come back to the fold, octogalore…”? Do you mean back to practicing law? 16%, remember? Plus, I’ve been diagnosed with low tolerance for frustration. I’d rather place attorneys than be them. At least, the key number we deal with is 25%.

    I’d love to hear more about your experiences, though.

  131. donna darko wrote:

    Does Anti-Racism Have to Address Gender?

  132. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Donna,

    Right question, wrong space to be asking it in. There’s a reason why me, Carmen, Wendi, Fatemeh and the other contribs for this site tend to either (1) create our own spaces or (2) participate in spaces that are run by women.

    There are a lot of anti-racist men who will tell me in a heartbeat to go and wave from the sidelines, to let the men do the real work or the heavy thinking. So, we find spaces like this one or we create them. And while we do discuss gender, it normally isn’t using the same language and codes that feminism does.

    However, like I said, I feel more anger toward feminism. With the men, I always knew where I stood, if my ideas weren’t respected I got told, no space was specifically made to welcome me. With feminism – well, things are more complicated than that.

  133. Slush wrote:

    Ouch, Latoya.
    You really feel more kindly to those who simply tell you you’re meaningless than to those who just do a lousy job paying attention to you?
    I mean, you sure have every right to feel that way, just seems harsh…

  134. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Yeah, Slush, I do.

    I’m direct like that. Everyone may not feel that way, but I like to know where I stand with things. To me, it is a bad feeling to know that someone doesn’t really give a fuck about you. But it is a far worse feeling to know that someone is pretending to give a fuck about you just so that you’ll help them achieve their goals.

    In the first scenario, I feel kind of shitty.

    In the second scenario, I feel kind of shitty and used.

  135. shah8 wrote:

    ugh…

    Octogalore…

    First of all, I’m sorry if I misspelled your name. I honestly did not mean to, and I will try not to in the future.

    Now, two very quick points

    1) Your assumption that I was speaking in bad faith is rude and dismissive. I also resent the implication that I’m some sort of elitist debator. I was terrible at actual debating. Nick-picking at my spelling, and making demands that I ask you for definitions first before replying are also unhelpful.

    2) It really does go without saying that if the subject is unconnected to women or gender issues, then feminism does not encompass those topics. It’s highly suspect then, to say that you have to be convinced on each and every relative frame’s locality towards feminism, and what’s more, in that comment at 57, you were saying that you were being nuanced, and now you accuse me of taking advantage of your…colloquialism…simple terms…

    Whatever.

    conclusion:

    What I said about what appears to be your “essentialist” approach wasn’t exactly impeached by your follow-up comment. I fully recognize that you said that

    But when folks use major feminist blogs as platforms to put across a panoply of lefty causes without any attempt to link to a gendered analysis, that’s where I think dilution can occur.

    However, you tied to your complaint to the fact that you believed that it was all about how people were making blog posts about feminisms being about something spurious but affects women somehow and that this could dilute feminism (Do give examples/links if you have time!). My take on your complaint at 57, before and now, was that gender analysis was tightly coupled to gonads, and feminism rightly reflects this view. I thought that was essentialist, which is a certain defined term, if you did not know already (and employing it in your view of feminism makes it ironic, I must proudly add), much like saying everybody who is not heterosexual is all inherently the same, or that homosexual sex being acceptable means that beastiality is ok as well. I mean, feminism is for degendering roles and stories where inappropriate, and it sounded to me like you wanted to gender feminism itself.

    bah, not short at all.

  136. shah8 wrote:

    Donna Darko, ya gotta know your history.

    From pretty much the beginning of the anti-slavery and later, anti-racist, movements gave a pretty good effort on pressing for women’s right. Personally, I would submit that such people have made more contributions to the suffragist movement than what was recieved. Not interested in fighting about who deserves what recognition, but I do want to emphasise that the Black Power and other right wing black nationalist movements have never comprised the majority of the civil rights movement, and as far as I make out, the vast majority of resistence to womens rights come from the same place as it does elsewheres…rightwing conservatives with something macho to prove.

  137. Elton wrote:

    Men of color feel excluded from feminism, too.

    Women don’t want to cook and wash dishes anymore? Well, fine, but someone’s gotta do it, and usually that turns out to be illegal immigrants from Mexico and China. Who’s sticking up for them?

  138. shah8 wrote:

    hmmm, my last paragraph was definitly not clear…

    Beyond octogalore’s view of what feminism isn’t, is that octogalore’s view that feminism inherently ties gender analysis with body and flesh women.

  139. octogalore wrote:

    Shah8:

    I appreciate your response.

    I agree with everything you said in your point (1) above, except for the last sentence.

    In your point (2), if that went without saying, then I wouldn’t be arguing that point. See, for example, the post on Feministe about Sean Bell entitled “This is a Feminist Issue.” That post did not connect to women or gender issues in any nonsuperficial way.

    As to your discussion of essentialism. I’m sure you’re aware that this is the belief that there is a set of properties all of which any entity of that kind must have. What part of Marc Anthony in drag being a feminist issue did you miss in my last post? Did he have a vagina that I somehow missed?

    Elton: I would humbly propose another solution to your problem regarding washing dishes. You proffer either “women” (presumably, white) or “illegal immigrants from Mexico and Chinca” (presumably, women). How about… men? Whattaya think, good plan? I’m creative like that.

  140. shah8 wrote:

    Reading that link above (which I probably should have done before making that initial comment), I see where Octogalore is coming from. I don’t sympathise, but I do see the gist a bit better.

    I come at this an entirely different way.

    First, that feminism is not about the goal of women’s equality.

    Second I do not believe in equality. I believe in women’s liberation, but not in equality per se. I think equality is a trap that encourages the people who struggle to aspire to something debased. I don’t want to be equal to exploiters, because to do that means that I must exploit the fewer remaining people even harder. Equity under the law, yes, and equity in terms of economic outcomes, and all that, but this isn’t actually a feminist desire, but a civic one.

    Feminism is vastly more about stories to me. A story of me, and a story of you, and being free to annotate the book of our lives (as much as they are written by others) to our pleasure. The freedom to value our lives as we wish, with compusitory regards to others, only those we must (heart/socially) value, and with no unconcerned party narrating stories of our worthlessness or non-human utility.

  141. kiki wrote:

    I’m direct like that. Everyone may not feel that way, but I like to know where I stand with things. To me, it is a bad feeling to know that someone doesn’t really give a fuck about you. But it is a far worse feeling to know that someone is pretending to give a fuck about you just so that you’ll help them achieve their goals.

    In the first scenario, I feel kind of shitty.

    In the second scenario, I feel kind of shitty and used.

    AMEN.

  142. Mykie wrote:

    i’m a WOC….

    when it comes to women tackling the issue of race and gender, i’ve learned to adopt the concepts of womanism. the theologies align more close than those of feminism if you are coupling the two battles.

    i think discrimination is something that all women will experience; but racism is not. (keeping in mind that there are white-male feminists).

    racism is something that all feminists should be conscious of; but not all of them will experience it.

    feminism is concerned with the empowerment and overall experiences of all women.
    so, since and minority women fall under that umbrella….. race issues should be addressed in the realm of feminism if the goal is to capture the experiences of all women.
    But…..
    I don’t think you have to be feminist to understand race issues
    But YOU should understand race issues if you are a feminist….
    And I think there are some race issues that aren’t feminist issues

    Oh, I also think feminism needs to address race in attempt to fight for ALL women….
    I don’t think race should be addressed to remind white women of their own privileges.
    That’s their own individual jobs.
    **minority women are reminded of white privilege in their daily interactions and attempts to progress in life….**

  143. Elton wrote:

    octogalore,

    I am a man of color from a multi-generation Chinese restaurant family. My family is just one of many immigrant families that have had little choice but to do long, hard labor for low wages and low respect, in a fiercely competitive and demanding Chinese buffet market that often takes advantage of Asian and Latino illegal immigrants, just to feed the insatiable American demand for overwhelming variety, quality, and convenience at humiliatingly low prices.

    Yours is a brilliant plan–one of many designed to ease the lifestyle of the white, middle-class American at the expense of working-class people of color and immigrants. I believe the technical term is “indentured servitude.”

    So you see, I don’t view the problems of white, middle-class, American feminists as more serious than the problems of working-class men AND women of color and immigrants.

  144. Elton wrote:

    I’ve never really had feminism clearly explained to me in practical terms, and it’s really only been represented to me in the form of abstract complaints about women and work.

    Women don’t make as much money as men? Well, that’s because, due to expected gender roles of women as mothers and caretakers and men as providers, less women are willing to make the sacrifices that men are willing to make to occupy the highest (and loneliest) strata of big business. There aren’t as many women as men at the top, but there aren’t as many women as men at the bottom, either. More men are homeless or doing the hardest, lowest-paying jobs, too. As a rule of biology, far more men have been single than women throughout history, and men have had to make greater personal sacrifices in the attempt to attract a mate. This article more clearly explains the phenomenon of there being more men at the “extremes” than women: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

    Now, on the issue of class, the complaints of feminism about work especially irk me. Because the way I see it, feminists aren’t clamoring for *more* work (and therefore more money and power), they want to do *less* work. This is especially annoying to someone like me from a restaurant family. Because white, middle-class American people don’t want to cook and wash dishes any more, illegal immigrants from China and Mexico have to. And working-class immigrants, men AND women, are pretty much the most shit-on, underappreciated people in America. Which is a shame, because without their labor, the people above them, race and class-wise, might not get to enjoy life so much.

    I don’t mean to offend anybody, but I don’t like to hear people complain about their lot in life unless they’re actually working as hard as they can to do something about it. So if women, or whoever, think they aren’t making as much money as they should, they should work longer hours, or sacrifice their personal/family lives to get education and training. And if they think it’s unfair that they should have to do housework, well, consider the plight of people who have to cook and clean for a living.

    If this is not what feminists are actually complaining about, then please correct me.

  145. Mykie wrote:

    elton-

    you should be corrected.

    i have an appointment; but i shall return!

  146. octogalore wrote:

    Elton: I believe my plan was for men to do more dishes, in response to your complaint about feminism resulting in women doing fewer. I didn’t qualify that based on race. My white husband would be a good start. So, not sure why you’re saying my plan is to “ease the lifestyle of the white, middle-class American at the expense of working-class people of color and immigrants.” Projection much?

    While abuse of illegal immigrants is a serious problem, it’s not one that can be laid at the door of feminism as you were attempting to do.

    You do admit “I’ve never really had feminism clearly explained to me in practical terms, and it’s really only been represented to me in the form of abstract complaints about women and work.” That seems to be the source of your confusion.

    Additionally, your discussion as to why women make less and your indictment of women as lazy and having things easier romantically are, let’s just say, flawed.

    Sadly, more rigorous discussion of why feminism is much broader than “complaints about work” are beyond my scope right now, as work and family beckon (I’m not complaining though!). I’d suggest spending more time on this blog, Feministe and other such locales to get more perspective from folks with more patience than I.

  147. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Well, that’s because, due to expected gender roles of women as mothers and caretakers and men as providers,”

    Feminism has a very big problem with these expectations and wants them changed.

    “There aren’t as many women as men at the top, but there aren’t as many women as men at the bottom, either.”

    Please prove this. I mean really, with stats and stuff, not just some ev-psych guy’s awesomely sexist just-so speech.

    “As a rule of biology, far more men have been single than women throughout history, and men have had to make greater personal sacrifices in the attempt to attract a mate.”

    Please prove. Men are sicklier as children and die younger as adults — it doesn’t make sense that there would be more single than women, unless the example were of a ubiquitously polygamous society.

    “Because the way I see it, feminists aren’t clamoring for *more* work (and therefore more money and power), they want to do *less* work.”

    Prove this, too. And I’m pretty sure middle-class white people still do their own dishes, for the most part. Having human “help” for anything more than child care is mostly an upper-class tenet. But then again, what do I know… I’m a middle-class black person. *shrugs*

  148. donna darko wrote:

    However, like I said, I feel more anger toward feminism. With the men, I always knew where I stood, if my ideas weren’t respected I got told, no space was specifically made to welcome me. With feminism – well, things are more complicated than that.

    In the first scenario, I feel kind of shitty.

    In the second scenario, I feel kind of shitty and used.

    Both scenarios are shitty.

    shah asked Octo: Do give examples/links if you have time! shah, re: Octo’s comment on her blog:

    For a little experiment, I looked at the last 25 posts on your blog and the last 25 posts on Feministe. All 25/25 of your posts had some relation to the core issue of race, although you touched upon feminism, issues of nationality, music, media, etc. But you kept on theme, and readers got a sense of a growing and developing theme, rather than a scattershot of issues.

    Feministe, on the other hand, and don’t get me wrong, I like the site quite a bit, had 18 out of 25 articles relating in some way to feminism. And I interpreted that liberally — some of these were just about the bloggers themselves — I counted those. There were 7 articles with no interconnection.

    Octo to Elton: I would humbly propose another solution to your problem regarding washing dishes. You proffer either “women” (presumably, white) or “illegal immigrants from Mexico and Chinca” (presumably, women). How about… men? Whattaya think, good plan? I’m creative like that.

    Elton, we should talk about men of color washing dishes in white homes but we’re not.

  149. R U Serious wrote:

    racism and sexism go hand in hand. those who are sexist are typically (but not always) racist as well. but at the end of the day, WW enjoy a privilege that BW will never enjoy, and that is being the object of WM’s desire. so if it comes down to WW vs. BW, WW will not choose feminism and lift up their black sisters, they will abandon you and benefit from the privileges of being white happily. See AAction people…

  150. James wrote:

    Latoya,

    You said, “Feminists believe that women should be equal to men. Period. Full stop.” and I totally agree with you.

    I would call myself a feminist and am hoping for an inclusive women’s movement that is more about equality than censorship and conformity.

    For full disclosure…I am a white male who has been sickened by the sexism and misogyny during the Democratic Primary season when not only was the media acting this way, but so were many mostly younger men…many of them sadly Obama supporters.

    The media has their own agenda, but the young men I believe are backlashing against some of the conformity gone to far of the same “mainstream feminist movement” that was really about middle class white women’s issues for too long and yelled down anyone who disagreed as either not a real feminist or a sexist male in my case no doubt.

    You hit the nail on the head with your comment about the “race-neutral” remark. Might as well extend that to “class-neutral” too as I’m sure they don’t want to hear about poor women’s issues either.

    You sound like a few women I know who have or are considering leaving Feminist movement when it needs them the most. You are part of the silenced majority who understands that Feminism does not live in a vacuum.

    The world needs you to take control from these white female academics who have arrogantly controlled their narrow view of Feminist or Women’s issues while leaving far too many women behind.

    God knows men like me can’t lead any Women’s movement, but I will definitely support you and women like if (when I hope) you take the lead.

    Any women’s movement that excludes the voices of large groups of women and alienates many to most of the men, including the ones who want to fight along side you is doomed to failure in the long run.