Bananas, Oreos and Coconuts: Would You Identify as White on the Inside?

by Guest Contributor Nadra Kareem

I was recently at a gathering with a Korean-American friend of mine when a young Asian guy approached us.

“You’re not Korean, right?” my friend asked.

He shook his head at her. “No, I’m Japanese.”

“You don’t look all Japanese. Are you half?” my friend asked.

I searched his honey-colored face, looking for telltale signs of whiteness but finding none. I wondered aloud if my friend thought he was half because of his hair. It was textured and brown rather than her hair, which was stick straight and black.

“It’s because of the way I carry myself,” he chipped in before my friend could answer. He went on to invoke some stereotypes about Asians, explaining that he didn’t look fully Asian because he had a very emotive face and liked to gesture a lot. All in all, he was a banana, he said.

I’m assuming that most of you know what this term means. But, for the uninitiated, a “banana” refers to Asians who believe that, while they may be yellow on the outside, they are culturally white on the inside. A synonym for banana used in this context is “Twinkie.” Anyway, when the guy self-labeled as a banana, my friend nodded in agreement, declaring that she, too, was one. Then, a white guy joined us and declared that he was an “egg,” white on the outside and yellow on the inside. Why a group of people in their twenties and thirties was using terminology that should have been left on the schoolyard years ago is beyond me. But, before I knew it, I felt their eyes turn to me.

“Well, I’m black,” I said.

But this response wasn’t acceptable to them. They wanted me to declare myself an “Oreo,” black on the outside and white on the inside. I explained that I thought this term was offensive. It suggested that the person in question was a sellout or an Uncle Tom, and I would never use the term to describe myself.

The day after, I found myself wondering why my friend and the Japanese American guy had no qualms about labeling themselves in these terms. I suppose that, if I based my racial identity solely on my familiarity with my father’s native Nigeria, I, too, would have to declare myself white on the inside. I don’t speak my tribal language and have no intimate knowledge of Yoruba customs. Still, I am intimately aware of what it feels like to grow up black in America and that experience precludes me from ever viewing myself as internally “white.”

I wonder what would have happened had a Chicano friend of mine, who speaks only English and had little familiarity with Mexico until adulthood, joined our group that night. I doubt that he would have openly declared himself a coconut or a pocho.

Now, I’ve heard Asian Americans derisively refer to fellow Asian Americans as being “whitewashed,” so I don’t believe that Asian Americans as a whole would proudly identify as “bananas” or “Twinkies.” But I wonder, because of their status, however problematic, as America’s “model minority,” if it’s simply more acceptable for Asian Americans to openly identify as white than it is for blacks and Latinos to? What do you think?

As for the white guy, or “egg,” in the group—it’s long been acceptable for whites to latch on to other cultures and claim them as their own. The idea being, which I find absurd, that whites have no culture and, thus, have no choice but to be “culture vultures.” Given that, it’s never very remarkable to me when a white person claims to be more yellow, black or brown than white. In one of the oddest moments I’ve ever had with a stranger, a white man approached me to say that he believed he was black in a former life. Go figure.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. What It Means to Be ‘Chinese Uighur’ « Far Outliers on 08 Jan 2009 at 5:22 pm

    [...] I wonder if there’s an epithet applied to Chinese Uighur that is the equivalent of oreo, banana, coconut, or apple. [...]

  2. 8Asians.com » College, Bananas, and the CSA on 07 Mar 2009 at 12:42 am

    [...] one of the two types of Asian on campus. Forgive me for using these terms, but you were either a “banana” or you were part of the Chinese clique. I didn’t self-identify either way, but I was lumped [...]

Comments

  1. j wrote:

    These types of comments – of being split between one ethnicity and white culture – always miss the point that Euro-American culture is dominate in the world and we are all acclimated to it to some degree on another. It’s ridiculous to me to embrace this _____ on the outside and white on the inside logic, when in reality people are complex and express cultural identity in multiple ways. These types of comments just reinforce racist ideas of what it means to be black, Asian, Latino/a, etc., and even what it means to be so-called white. Being an oreo or banana basically means there’s only one acceptable way of being black or Asian, and if you don’t fit within those boundaries them somehow you’ve relinquished that identity in favor of the dominant Euro-American paradigm. How about we embrace multiple ways of being ethnic? Or even better – recognize the socially constructed limits of racial categorization???

  2. Aaminah wrote:

    Ah, what J said… :)

    For Native Americans the term is “Apple”. And yeah, it’s definitely derogatory.

    I would never embrace the word for myself because it’s not true of me but also as J said, it’s just not that simple. Our cultures are complex and our personalities and complex. I happen to be several cultures rolled into one and I am happy this way.

  3. Anonymous wrote:

    yes, let’s just appreciate the “individual” in each one of us.

  4. atlasien wrote:

    I believe people who use those terms to describe themselves have deep issues of shame that they are not addressing.

    It’s different if they’re using it sarcastically, or in certain humorous contexts… but overall, if I heard someone say that seriously, I would wince and feel pretty bad for them.

  5. Mark wrote:

    People are just that – simply people, everywhere around the world. Behavior is tied to culture, not to race, and we cannot tie any behavior to a specific race. People can’t act white any more than they can act black, unless they embrace gross stereotypes.

    Everyone has their own individual mind and act in a way that they find most comfortable with (at least, usually). And how they act is influenced by where they grew up, how they grew up, who they talked to, where they studied, etc.

    All behavior is human behavior. We shouldn’t fret about whether or not we are “acting” within our ethnic group. As humans, aren’t we free to act like other humans, regardless of ethnicity?

    I think that this belief of “acting” like a particular ethnic group divides people. We should embrace the values we feel most comfortable with (of course, within the boundaries of the law).

  6. momo wrote:

    I love this topic. I’ve been called an Oreo, not black enough, and white girl but you know what I tell people when they say those things to me….I ask them…so what do I need to do to be black enough? Of course they have nothing to say or they might throw out some kind of stereotype which makes them look really dumb. I believe that asking them that question wakes them up a little bit. It helps them realize that people are different and they don’t have to act/speak a certain way because of their skin color.

  7. queer hapa wrote:

    I have never in my life heard anyone proudly refer to themselves as a… piece of fruit or processed snack food!

    The forgiving part of me wants to believe that what these folks really mean is that they are experiencing double-consciousness, as defined by W.E.B. DuBois. (”One ever feels his twoness, — an American, a Negro; two souls, two thoughts, two unreconciled strivings; two warring ideals in one dark body, whose dogged strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder.”)

  8. Shawna wrote:

    I spent the majority of my childhood deflecting racial slurs. At the time, I lived in a very small town in AR, my family was the only Muslim family to have ever lived in the area, my dad was Arab, my mom American, and I was literally Bible-thumped.

    My first day of fifth grade was marked by a girl who had volunteered to show me around un-volunteering because our teacher had told her I was part of a cult. The town managed to combine their hatred for non-Christians with an all-out animosity toward anyone non-White by their standards.

    I heard multiple slurs, some which “applied” to my mixed heritage (camel-jockey, towel-head, rag-head, etc.) and many that had nothing to do with anything but my slightly darker skin tone (Oreo, blackie, darkie, etc.). I finally complained when the slurs shifted from anti-Arab to anti-Black to anti-Asian. Some boys began putting their hands together, bowing and singing, “Cha cha cha cha ching ching. . .” every time I passed. Really? I mean, why?

    I’ve thought about those six years alot through the rest of my life. Here was a community of humans who felt it was perfectly acceptable to perpetuate stereotypes to any “non.” It didn’t matter what I was, just what I wasn’t. So when a Chinese American friend in high school (in IN) started proudly declaiming that he was a #2 Pencil, and looking to me to share the joke, I didn’t know what to do. At the time, I was struggling with my own identities; ethnic and religious.

    I’m happy all these years later to see that my aversion to this self-classification, and our mutual friends’ overjoyed perpetuation of it, was not unwarranted.

  9. thesciencegirl wrote:

    People used to call me an oreo as a kid because they didn’t know the word “biracial” and because I was “gasp” a brown kid in honors class. I’ve always associated the word with ignorance.

    Words like oreo are simply a way of taking positive qualities possessed by an ethnic minority and giving credit to whites. If I’m an intelligent black person, and you call me an oreo, you’re saying that intelligence and blackness are mutually exclusive. If I listen to classical music, calling me an oreo says that I can’t be black and also have musical interests outside of rap or hip-hop. It’s stifling and ridiculous, and I think that people who use these terms to define themselves are selling themselves short.

    I never heard the terms banana or twinkie before reading this blog. but there was essentially no Asian-American population where I grew up, so that could be why.

  10. jessabean wrote:

    Love this topic! I’m half Asian and I’ve NEVER heard the term “banana.” Wow.

    My instinct is to agree with queer hapa about the double consciousness. For a lot of Asian Americans raised in the States, they’re not considered “Asian enough” in the Asian community. They might not speak the language, like all the food, or observe the traditional cultural norms. Because, well, they were raised here in America and have adopted American customs.

    As for their attitude regarding this double consciousness, I’m not entirely sure. Humor is seen as an equalizer. Sometimes I think it’s a little like how some obese people will make a fat joke before someone else can, to take away the opportunity for someone to humiliate them.

    I used to be proud to be the “token Asian” in my group of predominantly white friends, in high school and even college. We’d joke about my Asian background all the time. Now that I’ve started examining my sense of identity more seriously, things are different. Those jokes aren’t so funny anymore.

  11. Eva wrote:

    I think these terms are silly, most of the people who use them are ignorant. I can’t stand that “oreo” comment because it implies that there is only one way to be black; like if you’re black you shouldn’t go the the opera and nonsense like that. Who decides what’s black, what’s white, what’s Asian anyway?

  12. Barbara wrote:

    The first time anyone called me a Twinkie, my first thought was “I’m processed and I have shelf-life of 20 years?”

  13. laura wrote:

    Growing up, I heard the term oreo and … okay, i can’t remember the term for white outside, black inside. But they were always in the derogatory sense. You were trying to be someone you couldn’t be. Oreo was basically the same as Uncle Tom, and … the other one… was basically saying that you, whitey, can never ever really be ‘gansta’ or whatever it was called when I was 10. I think that I had heard twinkie, but it was never used at someone in my presence. On one hand, I think it probably did increase the racial divisions at that school, but on the other, it made me aware that growing up white, even if I ‘acted black’ or what have you, I could never know the experience of growing up black in America.

    So, yeah, to me, to be -proud- to be one of these things says that something is deeply messed up about that person. That they are unhappy with their heritage, and buy wholly into the dominant white rhetoric.

  14. femaleperson wrote:

    I got called “zebra” as a kid. Apparently, no one understood what Norman Lear was doing with The Jeffersons and the playground bunch had a free-for-all with the name calling, like kids do. Being a Monty Python- Beatles-Dr. Who fan didn’t help matters. I remember being on the bus home one day in 4th grade and a girl from school asked me what I was. First I said black, and was about to continue the list when she shrieked at me that I wasn’t mixed, I was just black trying to be better than everybody and that I thought I was above them. Then she pulled my hair. I wouldn’t have understood what “projection” meant in those days, but it’s sad to think that this girl hated being black so much, she tried to offload her pain in that way.

    I’ve asked that too, “What’s acting black?” and listened to the enormous silence as the person I asked tried to figure out how to answer without using the same old stereotypes about food, clothes, accents, entertainment choices, etc.

  15. Kaonashi wrote:

    I agree with J 100 percent. Personally, I hate all of those terms because they all basically say that there’s only ONE acceptable way to be Black, or Asian, or Native American, etc and that’s just not the case.

  16. Phrone wrote:

    While I think the terms are kindda strange (and I’m constantly impressed by how many different foods can be used — I’ve never heard the “apple” or the “egg” before) I think it goes a bit deeper than internalized racism.

    Culture is a very difficult idea to pin down. It can easily dissolve into racist ideas, as in the “you’re not really black because you don’t listen to hip hop.” At the same time, though, you can’t say culture doesn’t exist or doesn’t matter — I have felt like I somehow don’t belong in the Latino community where I live because I speak Spanish only haltingly, for example, and, as Nadra pointed out, there is definitely something that is white culture. So I think it’s very possible that someone who doesn’t feel accepted as either white (because of skin tone, etc.) or as a person of color (because they don’t feel a part of the community, for whatever reason) to develop this idea that they are “x on the inside, y on the outside.”

    That being said, however, I know I personally don’t identify as a coconut because I don’t think you can actually seperate the experience of being white and being a certain race or ethnicity when you’re mixed (and probably if you’ve been raised in a culture different from what others identify you as, but I can’t testify to that as well.)

    I’ve reworded this comment like five times, so hopefully it makes sense. D:

  17. Erica wrote:

    “Well, I’m black,” I said.

    I think that is the most intelligent, concise rebuttal I have ever heard of the whole inside-outside-colors phenomenon. Thank you :-)

  18. Loud wrote:

    Actually, the correct terminology is ethnicity, not “tribe” as there are over 30 million Yorubas in Nigeria alone, talk less of expats, and people who still speak Yoruba in Cuba/Brazil etc who were taken as slaves.

  19. chaia wrote:

    @ Erica – It is definitely the most effective rebuttal ever. Whenever someone tells me I don’t “look Jewish,” I say, “Well, I am,” and in my 35 years of experience, nobody has ever said anything in response because they were too busy being confused by the truth.

  20. Jeff Behrens wrote:

    “In one of the oddest moments I’ve ever had with a stranger, a white man approached me to say that he believed he was black in a former life. Go figure.”

    I can’t decide if that’s more or less surreal than Bill Clinton as “America’s first black president.”

  21. Arturo wrote:

    The first real bit of culture shock I got after emigrating to the U.S. came from my fellow Mexican students, when they informed me that getting good grades was a “white thing.”

  22. Hari Mirchi wrote:

    I think Asians are far more likely to call themselves Twinkies or bananas or coconuts (for us browner-skinned South Asians) or whatever because we are closer to becoming white (in the way that Italian, Irish, and Eastern European Jews have all become white after being Othered immediately after coming to the US in large numbers) than Mexicans or Black Americans. It’s tempting, too, to kiss some white ass and play that game, because then you get to grab hold of some of that white privilege.

    Ultimately, however, I have no patience with my fellow Asians who do that, because it still buys into the belief that whiteness is inherently desireable, and blackness is inherently undesireable, and anyone who is not white or black needs to choose a “side.” Not only is it a false dichotomy, but it’s a racist false dichotomy.

  23. gollygee wrote:

    I definitely have seen a great number of white people latching on to other cultures, but it bothers me that those types of people can’t embrace their own heritage. I mean, I don’t think there are many people who don’t know what country their ancestors come from, and it’s not like France, Germany, England, etc don’t have cultures of their own. They definitely do, and it’s a cop-out to say that culture isn’t enough for them. Obviously all cultures should be celebrated, but identifying with a culture that is not really a part of you seems like a “grass is greener” sort of situation. Hope that makes sense. :D

  24. Sean wrote:

    I’ll also admit to being amused by all the different foods that can be used as a metaphor for someone’s monolithic concept of a group of people. I wonder if people who are confused about their gender identity tell themselves ‘I’m a glazed donut on the outside but a polish sausage on the inside’? If men are from Mars, then does that mean I’m black on the outside but green on the inside? Or vice-versa? Does that make me a chocolate mint? Oh, the possibilities are endless.

    I also know the experience of being considered “not really” black, due to my tastes in music, clothes, manner of speaking, etc. In a weird way, I think my life would have been a lot easier if I DID behave and carried myself in a “stereotypical” manner. I would have been easier for people to label me and put me in a convienient category.

    However, I always subscribed to the mindset of individuality and I don’t regret it for a second.

  25. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    Cosign with j and Erica. What’s sad to me is:

    1) the foodstuff insults still assign “whiteness” as the yardstick;

    2) the racial boundary-patrolling intent. As I said, j, I completely agree with what you said. As much as I want to shake folks when they come to me with the foodstuff insults and say, “Don’t you get that you’re just limiting yourself and me and the and complexity and potential of our and other groups with that ish?,” I also know such insults serve, in the speaker’s mind, to keep people inside the racial/ethnic fold, to make sure no one’s going to turn coat and go to the “other” side. (”If you embrace opera/yoga/golf/Valley Girl/ intonations/writing proper English now, that means you’re going to marry someone white and have their bi-racial babies later! Oh, what’ll happen to “The Race”?!?!?) So, these folk appoint themselves to be the Racial Police and these insults are their night sticks. Knowing that they’re doing this for the greater cause makes them feel powerful in *their* knowing *your* place.
    Personally, I’d be exhausted from all that cop work.:-D

  26. johnjihoonchang wrote:

    I’ve been declared “whitewashed” and “Twinkie” before, but I’ve never accepted the title. The strange thing is that I do live up to some common Asian American stereotypes (excellent in academics, follow certain cultural practices and speak Corean).

    It doesn’t make sense in any case and I certainly don’t think it’s right to accept or give such a label; see #1. All the same, I can somewhat understand why some Asian Americans willingly accept the label, as white people generally hold the power/wealth in this country and it is attractive to align with them, rather than with minority groups. Not saying it’s right, but perhaps there’s some subconscious desire at play.

  27. Abu Sinan wrote:

    I dont care for those terms either. I am a white dude, converted to Islam, with an Arab wife and two little “nuss-nuss”(half and half in Arabic) boys.

    I come from a German background and like the writer of the post said, I have my own culture. I have my poets, my singers, my music and literature. Why should I try, or want to be anything I am not?

    I get it from some in the Muslim community who think I should reject my racial background, but to them I say that I changed religions, not races or ethnicities.

    As a father of two boys with a mixed race background, what would it say to them if I rejected one part of their heritage? What does that do to their self worth when half of it is to be rejected?

    Mixed race kids MUST be taught to appreciate and value all sides of their background. I dont find rejecting or choosing one race/ethnicity over another is a healthy option. Fully embracing both sides is a must.

  28. Dani wrote:

    We are all a product of our own experiences. The neighborhoods we grew up in, the friends we’ve met, the people we’ve been exposed to and the things we’ve been taught by our families determine who we are and how we behave.

    Therefore, the notion that there’s a “Black” way to act, or an “Asian” way to act is ridiculous. Just because we don’t fit the stereotypes assigned to our race doesn’t make us any less a member of that race than someone who does. In fact there’s something refreshing about people who push the boundaries of diversity.

    To be honest, I think people who throw around the terms “oreo” or “banana” are holding the rest of us back. And a lot of the time they do it because of their own deep rooted insecurities.

    I believe that if you’re afraid to ever step out of the comfort zones if what’s sterotypically expected of your race, then you’re liniting yourself hugely.

    You should never let someone tell you that you can’t or shouldn’t do something because of your race – even if the person saying it is the same race as you.

  29. berrybrowne wrote:

    momo -LOVE IT! and will use it whenever (fingers crossed that it never happens again) someone is ever again ignorant to prompt me to ask!

    i agree with the comments, but just have a fundamental problem with considering certain types of behavior “white.” i refuse to give white culture intelligence, appreciation for the arts, environmental consciousness, or the ability to talk and dress in a manner that is critical to scholastic/career success in this racist nation. that’s not to say that there aren’t some preferences that we continue to associate with certain cultural groups ( see the stuff______peoplelike blog phenomena), but the good =white, bad= not white dichotomy is, IMO, the subtext of this type of conversation.

  30. Keke wrote:

    People have told me that they consider me to be “basically white” and I find that terribly offensive. That kind of thinking tends to insinuate that there is a particular set of behaviors that is inherent to certain groups of people.

    When people tell me that I usually ask them to clarify. Usually they begin diving into entrenched social stereotypes about African Americans, like “you speak really well” or “you’re like really smart” or “you listen to rock and alternative”. It is not a compliment. Comments like these only serve to perpetuate racist and stereotypical thinking.

    Why anyone would embrace terms that project prevailing notions of race and behavior is beyond me.

  31. A. wrote:

    A girl on my dormitory floor called me an oreo. A white girl, at that.

    I about kicked her ass.

  32. wendi muse wrote:

    well, A, maybe you should have. at least then, she would think you were “acting black” [sarcasm]

    i hate terminology like that because, and i agree with previous commenters on this, it assumes that any positive attributes one may have, be it intelligence, appreciation for a certain art/music, being articulate, etc, are only features reserved for whites, to which people of color (esp the darker ones) have no access or ability to possess.

  33. Torontonian wrote:

    @Hari Mirchi:

    I think Asians are far more likely to call themselves Twinkies or bananas or coconuts (for us browner-skinned South Asians) or whatever because we are closer to becoming white (in the way that Italian, Irish, and Eastern European Jews have all become white after being Othered immediately after coming to the US in large numbers) than Mexicans or Black Americans.

    I don’t agree with this at all, and I don’t think Asians are at all closer to becoming white. Asians are perceived as being of a higher social class than Blacks, but Asians are seen as perpetual foreigners. Mexicans, I guess, are seen as perpetual foreigners and lower class.

    If Asians were considered white, then there wouldn’t be the concept of “banana” and “coconut”, which assumes distinctions between white and yellow, and white and brown.

    The real reason why Asians are more likely to identify as bananas or coconuts is that Asian identities are strongly associated with non-English languages, while Black identity is not associated with speaking an African language. Are you Chinese if you can’t speak Chinese? Many people would say ‘no’.

    As for the question “Bananas, Oreos and Coconuts: Would You Identify as White on the Inside?”, the answer is that all bananas, oreos, and coconuts would identify as white on the inside, as that is the definition of banana, oreo, and coconut. However, calling another person a banana, oreo, or coconut does not make that person one. I consider “banana”, “oreo”, and “coconut” self-identities, so only the people who self-identify as that belong to that category.

  34. SWDallasite wrote:

    Has anyone seen http://www.stuffethnicpeoplelike.com?

    I wonder what the response from ethnic people is. Is it as satirical as SWPL or just plain offensive?

  35. TierList E wrote:

    I was never called an oreo, surprisingly. I’ve been called white or white acting many times. It always frustrated me but I rarely responded well to those situations. I wished I could’ve asked the what I should do to act black question and watch them trip over themselves.

    I don’t know why my friends back then went so out of their way to say I acted like them when I argued with them on every remotely race-related issue ever. I mean, we were obviously coming from different contexts.

    I heard of most of the fruit analogies from my race-relations class, and my community at least knows oreo, but around here I don’t hear any of these terms from anyone- I guess they just never caught on.

  36. Ha! wrote:

    During my childhood, around the age of 7 or 8, I was terrorized by children claiming that I was an oreo because I spoke a certain way. I got caught reading a Babysitters Club book on the bus. Even as a child I understood the dialectic behind what we subconsciously associate with ‘blackness’ in our culture as opposed to ‘whiteness.’ Accusations of acting white were the strongest condemnation from my peers and it left me feeling alone and alienated. I was not sure what I had done wrong or how to change it. I stopped reading on the bus after that.

  37. Christie wrote:

    A couple of commenters seem to be applying a double standard, which does not fit with the flow of the rest of the article/comments.

    I agree that the concept of oreo/banana/egg etc. is a ridiculous one, which works to perpetuate false restrictions on how a person from a certain race should act. It is sad that if they have “atypical” hobbies or whatever, people suddenly call their race into question — I guess it is the instinct of a group to try to protect and perpetuate itself, but for someone who does have those “atypical tastes” to call *themselves* one of these names also seems sad, as it is like they are saying, “as an Asian person, I really shouldn’t be allowed to like this music, so I guess I am white inside”.

    Okay, so I guess most of the commenters have made similar points… but two of the commenters seemed to be saying exactly the opposite — commenters no. 23 (Gollygee) and 27 (Abu Sinan) seemed to be saying that (for example) “eggs” are a bit unfortunate because why would any white person want to identify with or follow Asian or other cultural activities, when they have their own white/European music, culture, etc., and that should be enough for them. That they should not have this “grass is greener” attitude, and go seeking after cultural activities that are not part of their white heritage.

    I thought the whole point of this discussion was that we *should* be able to enjoy whatever music, hobbies, etc., we like, even if they are historically from another culture, and to do that *without* saying we are (or being told that we are) therefore “another color on the inside”. In other words, I am whatever race I am (in my case it is just straightforward, that I am just white), but I can like whatever I want and act however I want, and I am still just me, still a white person. Who decides what white people are allowed to like, anyway? In the case of my children, they might identify themselves as “brown” or “mixed” or “white” (?) or whatever, but aren’t they are perfectly within their rights to speak Japanese, watch Japanese comics, play Japanese baseball, eat Japanese food, learn Japanese manners, etc., *without* either being called a ripe banana (I made that up — brownish on the outside and “brownish/yellowish/whitish??” on the inside?) or being told that they have their own Indian and English/Finnish culture and they should just be satisfied with that. I agree that terms like oreo or egg are offensive, because they imply racial restrictions on our activities, NOT because the so-called “eggs” and “oreos” themselves are unfortunate (on the grounds that “they should just be happy with their own culture”).

  38. Alexzandra wrote:

    I took a look at SEPL, and generally I think that the site is supposed to be funny, but I personally feel like it’s really hit or miss. For example I found http://ethnicpeoplelikestufftoo.blogspot.com/2008/04/7-looking-for-other-ethnic-in-room.html to be really offensive. I felt like it grossly mischaracterized me on every level. When I walk into a room I tend to associate with people based on whether I think we might have a shared interest, not how brown they are. Most of the posts don’t make any sense to me either and while snippets might be funny, the overall tone is offensive. It’s very strange to put together a blog based on “funny stereotypes” when the stereotypes don’t make sense or are so far off base that they become offensive. Sometimes over the top doesn’t get any funnier, just more distorted.

    This is the same feeling that I have about SWPL too. My husband is white and none of the jokes seemed to characterize him either (and again most of them didn’t make sense to us. Rugby, really?), and if anything they sounded even more offensive than the stuff on SEPL.

  39. Dani wrote:

    There was this one time a guy called me an “oreo” because he tried to ask for my number and I said no. Then he saw me talking to a group of white male friends (I’m black) and he thought I must have turned him down because I prefer white guys (which I don’t). He assumed i was some kind of “race traitor” just because I was talking to white people.

    It’s all based on people’s insecurties.

  40. Nadra wrote:

    Uh oh, Alexzandra, if your husband can’t identify with any of the things SWPL says that white people like, he just might be the “wrong kind of white person.” I’m just joking, but it’s worth noting tht the site’s founder always uses that reasoning when white people say they don’t identify with the list of interests on the site. He’s specifically making fun of young, urban, leftist, well-educated white hipsters. Of course, many people of color have also said that they find the topics on the site to be of interest to them, too.

  41. black Sunshine wrote:

    one thing that i have noticed is that there is an increasing amount of acceptance among hip-hop / rap stars being “nerds” – collecting vinyl toys, Bathing Apes, talking about Voltron et cetera. a lot of these icons of “black” behaviour are actually into some very “white” things if you read their interviews.

    (hope it didn’t post twice, had to make some edits)

  42. karimi wrote:

    white. black. yellow. brown. THEY ARE ALL METAPHORS PEOPLE.

    When I teach spoken word workshops ad I discuss symbol and metaphor I discuss how racial politics is connected to Taco Bell’s use of the Chihuahua to get people to eat their Brown food.

    white, black, yellow are all shortcuts to get people to organize, eat, fight, or just include, be in , be down.

    i am none of those colors unless I am in a group where I have to be. And I always know when I have to be. It’s usually when someone says they are white or white on the inside or they are dogging white people. That’s the clue. That’s the one that says “I don’t see complexity, I see color.”

    These colors have no room for people like me: Iranian and Guatemalan. These colors represent an old type of cultural politics that implies simplicity, but damn…this cultural politics works. It sells products well and allows for commodification.

    Straight up! and i’ll take on Cornell West or anybody of the culture gods on this one.

    Folks that are caught up on color lack cultural complexity. These labels are points of departure. I still wish folks were like damn “I am half Iranian and half Star Wars” or ” I am Chicana and Punk Rock” Or “I am my grandparents’ kid and my neighbor’s mom, because that’s who raised me. I am Mexican-filipino-Fijian”

    Why can’t we have that?

    I have an essay I wrote about all this in a book of essays called Total Chaos by Jeff Chang. I am not writing this to pub myself, but just hoping folks can read it, and challenge me or something. I am tired of listening to these old deates especially in hip hop cultural communities. Hip hop progressives are so elitist and essentialist it’s sickening. I can’t wait for some of them to carry Hip Hop Bibles and start baptizing their babies on KRS-one records or something.

    Because if we are going to continue to be black, white, yellow, and brown, then ultimately we might as well get rid of all cultural designation.

    [a conversation in the future]
    A: You like white music or yellow music?
    B: Nah, I’m black. I like black music.
    A: Cool. I am white. But since my girlfriend is yellow. I am down with yellow.
    B: People will think I am yellow if I like yellow music.
    C: I like brown music. White music is whack
    B: Whack is a black term You shouldn’t use that. People will think you are black.
    A: I get that all the time. I wrote a play about it. I made lots of money. There’s a lot of white people that want to be black.
    B: It’s because they like black music. Not their own. They should just stick to their own.

    Oh…I could go on…don’t ge me started.

  43. Nadra wrote:

    Karimi, thanks for commenting. If it’s any consolation, I’ve heard someone be referred to as “half-black, half-gay.” I thought it was pretty funny.

  44. Sara wrote:

    I had a Filipino friend (who actually spent the first 7 years of her life in the Philippines) declare herself a twinkie, while a Black friend called himself an oreo. And yeah, there were a couple “eggs” I knew. At the time, I thought it was funny – they were totally assimilated into the dominant white, American culture and didn’t really identify with their own ethnicity, so these names made sense. But now I’m starting to realize, why do they suddenly lose their cred as people of color because they don’t do stereotypical things? Are they immune to racism because they “act white” and hang with white people?

  45. Mio wrote:

    I hate all these terms. But even more, I hate the words “yellow” “brown” and “red.” Why do all races have to be tied to a skin color? Yes, we use a color name to describe black people and white people. It’s a weird little fluke of history and language. Can we get over it and start actually talking about race, instead of sideways metaphors in primary colors?

    Of course, the dumbest thing about these “oreo” metaphors is that it suggests race is finite, quantifiable, and easily separated within any person. Isn’t the point of living in a blended culture that we absorb and are influenced by many influences, all at the same time, all together at once?

    And finally — why do mixed race people get stuck with the “oreo” and “twinkie” labels? Why is my minority parent attached to my skin but my majority parent inside?

    I mean, I know the answers to those questions have to do with various social assumptions, anxieties, and psychoses. Just that I find it really rather rude.

    I remember as a child being worried that if my father was not holding my hand people wouldn’t realize he was my father. If I couldn’t externalize the connection, connect our skin, nobody would understand. They couldn’t see how mixed I was on the inside (and, frankly, the outside — but physical variation tends to be lost on people who only see what they want to) so I had to create an external link.

  46. Jha wrote:

    Well, this is a fascinating conversation. It’s weird, because as long as I was in Malaysia, I identified as “the banana”, and when I got here, I was treated as an Asian by people who didn’t know me well – which was patronizing for most part since my degree is in English. So I started identifying with my nationality, since I can’t identify with my ethnic group (Chinese).

    I’m actually shocked at how many people here are called these names (”banana, oreo”) by OTHER PEOPLE NOT OF THE SAME ETHNICITY… my goodness, do these people simply think they can just name YOUR identity without actually asking you?? >_<

  47. Nasacari wrote:

    I can see that this has provoked a dialogue– which is exactly what these types of articles do. I sensed a lot of racial/ethnic distrust, anger, resentment, disbelief, and hurt in both the content of the article, as well as the responses. Every response reveals more about the emotional and political investments of the readers/writers than about any type of “objective truth.” The author as well as every reader is deciding or has decided what is true to them as far as issues of race, ethnicity, authenticity, Whiteness, people of color-ness, power relations, etc. It is a very controversial topic because the issue of identity in the United States continues to be a hot button topic that is contested, appropriated, marketed, brainwashed, changing legislation, encouraging discrimination of certain peoples, discouraging discrimination against others, causing inter-ethnic conflict, etc. I fear that the content of this dialogue may encourage further conflict and splintering within the Asian and Asian American community, as well as between Asian/Asian American communities and other ethnic communities. It is very easy to hold certain expectations and preconceived notions of some “authentic” way to identify or behave, especially of people of color….But it is much harder to take a step back and contemplate on the message and the context of such declarations (”I’m a banana/oreo”). What does it mean when this person says it, versus another? Has anyone asked them? Do they know what kind of messages they are saying about themselves, their alignment in the racial hierarchy, their connection (or lack of) towards their/ or their parent’s native country, how they choose to connect/ or disconnect to other people of color? Can we safely say that these messages reveal an “Uncle Tom” status, an alignment to Whiteness? Is this internalized racial hatred? Could it be an identification to certain cultural norms that our society has painted as “White”- but, through their distribution, is appreciated by more than just Whites (to the horror of some race purists-both White, and non-White)? Can we even say that every group understands the notion of Whiteness in the same context (U.S., European American)? How does the notion of Whiteness differ from culture to culture? I think stigmatizing people who identify as bananas, oreos, and coconuts limits the dialogue to a one-way street, where one group is “bad,” and the others are “right.” This simplification erases the complexity through which race is addressed and understood. What if these viewpoints were allowed? How would this change mainstream, old-school notions of race- as this homogeneous, unchanging, always unified, uncomplicated entity? How does this reflect the effects of globalization, of shifting power relations within and between ethnic groups, with Whiteness, with the continued effects of colonialism? Does disidentification transform and offer new ways of looking at race in 2008 in way that can’t be reduced to “s/he wants to be White”? What about a different reality, one where certain people cannot fit neatly into the archaic racial/ethnic categories constructed ages ago, can connect culturally with many different cultures, and align themselves in way that makes sense to them? It may not make sense to others, but stigmatizing them is not the first step to any sort of understanding.

  48. C wrote:

    “It is sad that if they have “atypical” hobbies or whatever, people suddenly call their race into question — I guess it is the instinct of a group to try to protect and perpetuate itself…”

    I agree with Christie on this point whole-heartedly. When I was in middle school, it finally came to light to some of the black student population that there was racial tracking in our school system. I don’t think anyone was sophisticated enough to call it just that, but they knew that some black kids were separated from the rest. As we started to take electives and gym classes together, they realized that they had never seen me (for example) before and, from the way I talked, I suppose they figured that I was in advanced (and predominantly white) classes.

    I was accused of talking white and having a white girl name, but these comments didn’t bother me much beyond their utterance because there were other black kids in my classes who spoke the same way. My parents spoke the same way. The teacher of the gifted and talented program I was selected for in elementary school spoke that way. I never thought that blackness and intelligence were incompatible in any way. It’s so sad that these kids being wronged by our educational system didn’t feel that they were so much more and challenge those low expectations.

    Conversely, I think Christie missed something in previous comments about white people being “culture vultures.” The problem lies in the mindset of the white person who thinks he/she is “just a human being” while the rest of us are raced.

  49. William wrote:

    Nasacari brought up a number of good questions including one, which I feel is important –

    “I think stigmatizing people who identify as bananas, oreos, and coconuts limits the dialogue to a one-way street, where one group is “bad,” and the others are “right.” This simplification erases the complexity through which race is addressed and understood.”

    For this type of discussion to be fruitful, we need to break stigmas of identity and encourage people to speak up about their experiences. No one person can call him/herself the authority on identity, unless it’s his/her own. We each have a certain amount of control of who we decide to be, but it’s also important to recognize the more subtle societal influences on identity.

  50. Esther wrote:

    (I suppose that, if I based my racial identity solely on my familiarity with my father’s native Nigeria, I, too, would have to declare myself white on the inside. I don’t speak my tribal language and have no intimate knowledge of Yoruba customs. Still, I am intimately aware of what it feels like to grow up black in America and that experience precludes me from ever viewing myself as internally “white.”)

    You state this as if it does not apply to Asian Americans as well. However, in my own opinion, the Asian American experience is even more precluded from the white experience, or “American” experience, than the black experience. Just like you, Asian Americans don’t solely identify with their ethnic backgrounds. Asian Americans also have a very distinct experience in America– a sense of eternal foreignness, a sense of invisibility, expectations of passiveness. I think the reason why Asian Americans toss out terms such as “banana” and “whitewashed” is not because they can easily fit the white American mold, but because they have grown up almost feeling ashamed of their Asian American identities, which leads them to feel proud of the fact that they remove themselves from Asian American stereotypes and can claim some part of the American experience as their own, even if it only colors (or rather discolors) them on the inside.

    Out of all the minorities, Asian Americans, mainly due to their appearances, will be perceived as the LEAST white. So no, I don’t think it’s the case that it’s more acceptable for Asian Americans to claim whiteness. I think it’s actually their own defense mechanism against the very fact that it is so unacceptable to the rest of the world.

  51. AAA wrote:

    One should not bee too surprised about these comments. It’s 2008 and some folks are saying that they would “feel” more comfortable puting “any white person” in the white house as opposed to any minority of any shades/hue. I am not surprised. The sad part is, it has become such a “normal” everyday thing that those of us who hear these things regularly just shrug them off.

    What bothers me these days is the fact that I am running into immigrants from other parts of the world and THEY ALL seem to think that they are BETTER than black people. Even folks from 4th & 5th world countries!! WOW???why are people’s opinions of blacks so bleak?

  52. AAA wrote:

    I don’t believe Asians are American “model minority”. I personally think Africans are America’s model minority. Think about it. If you know as many Africans (from Africa) as Asians, compare their achievements, their backgrounds, what they had before arriving in this country and what they achieved after getting here and how they carried themselves. Then again, Africans can’t never “pass as white” intentionally or unintentional – and of course “BLACK” is never a good thing so who would want to associate anything good coming from the motherland? – well, maybe if they play football or basketball, it’s ok right. WHATEVER!!!!!!

  53. john wrote:

    what is the term used for a white person who is black inside? I know it’s just a joke, but i want to know.

  54. john wrote:

    i asked a black friend of mine and he said the term for “white on the outside and black on the inside” is white chocolate, but he has only heard the term used on a basketball court [presumably when a white player plays good in a certain way]

  55. Clarisse wrote:

    Wow, this is an interesting piece of article.
    I remember vividly one time in my last year in high school/college, we were in French class and discussing cultures and slangs. The white girl next to me referred to me as a “Crunchie” (as in the chocolate bar), because I was dark on the outside and yellow on the inside. Considering I’m East Asian, I’m still struggling to see how that works. I have lightly tanned skin for one. Maybe the “dark” was referring to my black hair?? Hmm…

    Speaking of Asians in white-dominated communities- I personally think its disgusting and somewhat disheartening when I hear Asians talk about how crap different aspects of their own culture is. They’re basically dropping their own cultural backgrounds and beliefs and picking up white culture instead which I have to admit, is total “trash” most times. My friend’s ex, who’s Taiwanese, once said “eww” when asked what she thought of Mandarin. From what I gather, she’s trying to become the typical “white girl”- rock music loving, guitar/bass player, dress like the white girls in magazines, etc. I have nothing against guitars nor rock music, but I believe you can take it too far.
    Personally I wouldn’t want to be like those sl*tty white girls parading around in next to nothing in winter. What’s so proud about that? I like my own culture and its traditions, and even though I spent the last 11 years of my life in a white-dominant country, I’m proud to be calling myself an Asian. Sad to say, but I think NZ has a very long way to go before its people will be much more accepting of other races, not just Asians but also Middle Easterns and Africans.

    Mod Note: Clarisse, please refrain from generalizing white women in your posts. You can discuss issues of identity without slamming other groups. – LDP

  56. Clarisse wrote:

    Another thing- I forgot to mention that I get the feeling many Asian teenagers feel ashamed about their own cultural identities. Maybe there should be more pro-Asian groups out there…?
    As a teacher in training, I think the children of the present and future need more and better education on multiculturalism and the different ethnicities. The main reason is because NZ is a multicultural country and whether the white people like it or not, the “non whites” will be here for a long time yet and I’ll even go as far as to say, without the Asians and Middle Easterns, NZ’s economy will spiral right down.
    And in answer to your question, no I would definitely NOT identify myself as “white” on the inside if it means I’ll only be labelled and called names by my society.

  57. J wrote:

    I think the notion of Caucasians not having a culture is a product of being the majority race when “culture” is viewed as something inherent to a minority. “Culture,” in this respect means the customs of some minority race, so in this definition, white people feel they don’t have a culture. Clearly, this word is used often used in this way (ie cultural food) that propagates this notion

  58. Tiffany wrote:

    I’m black and have been called “oreo” and “white girl” by people before, even my siblings. Just because I never talked like the other black kids in my neighborhood and listened to N Sync and Creed instead of Mystikal and NAS (though, to my blackness credit, I did have big crush on Usher). What is ironic is that I am very proud to be black and have a greater knowledge of black history than most blacks. I guess you could call me Afrocentric because I feel a great connection to Africa.
    I live in a ghetto neighborhood, and people I work with and interact with everyday expect me to act like and relate to them. I wish more black americans would realize that there is more than two or three categories of black people in this country. In fact there are no category..everyone is unique to some degree. Just because I talk like I’m from the Valley doesn’t make me any less black and doesn’t mean I’m ashamed of being black. This is just me! And I love who I am.

  59. Kevin (Ket) wrote:

    Late comment to an old post, but just thought I’d share…

    As an Asian American, being called a banana or a vanilla cookie is most certainly not always about being ashamed about being Asian and wishing one were white. Comment number 33 got it for some of us. “Banana”, especially when used by other Asians (and even our own family members) is often a pejorative. It suggests that a person is ignorant of their own racial background and is content to just pretend to be white. After all, how can you call yourself Chinese if you don’t speak Chinese, and therefore cannot communicate with other Chinese people unless they speak English? That’s the general idea of being “Banana” as a pejorative. The shame behind it is actually that the most Asian thing about you really is your iPod tracklist.

    Consider for example an Asian American (she was born in NY) R & B singer, Utada, who had fairly recently made another push to gain exposure in America. She’s very popular in Japan, but has set her sights on gaining a fanbase in America. When she released her latest album, many of her fans accused her album of being white washed and pandering to the American public, as if American culture is a lowest common denominator, rather than sticking to her style she generally uses in Japan.