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1. Interracial Dating: The Interracial Hate Stare at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 07 May 2008 at 6:00 am

   [...] A note: All comments are subject to Sulyp’s Rule #3, which is: Keep posts “Informative, Kind, and Truthful”. If it’s not two of the three, [...]

Comments

1. Big Man wrote:

   All the topics you mentioned seemed cool to me.

   I don’t think you can prevent people from being people. So it’s going to be hard to totally avoid comments that seem stupid to you. It’s the blessing and curse of the internet.

   Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 11:34 am ¶

2. Sulyp wrote:

   I have a few ideas, though I don’t know how plausible they are:

   1. Don’t lump whole “racial/social groups” together when assigning a character trait. I.e. “Asians are ____”.

   2. No epithets, slurs, or name calling of anyone or any group… whether is be malicious or in jest. I.e “Oreo”.

   3. Keep posts “Informative, Kind, and Truthful”. If it’s not two of the three, evaluate whether or not you really should post it.

   Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 11:43 am ¶

3. Celeste wrote:

   I think we can. It will probably get a little squirrely but I think if you address the most common conversation stoppers and accusation it might preemptively get them out of the way.

   Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 11:51 am ¶

4. Vee wrote:

   Personally I really could care less but I am definitely aware that it is a very emotional item for people on both sides of the fence. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen this topic discussed on the internet without some vitriol, or personal attack against either gender.
   I think that topic is best discussed with people involved in interracial relationship, sharing their own experience.
   . . . I really do not know.

   Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 12:00 pm ¶

5. mr guy wrote:

   Try your best to move the conversation beyond black men and white women, and asian women and white men.In my experience talk about IR relationships online almost always turn into one of the two.Then it turns into what you said above: if black men/women or asian women/men stop…….

   Also in the end, some folks just flat out don’t like seeing their own with someone else of a different race.Whether they know the person or not.Some may deny it, but thats the way it is with with some folks.

   As for stuff to explore, how about things we don’t normally talk about.Like the history of IR relationships.Legit non-oppressive ones that have been documented I mean.

   Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 12:08 pm ¶

6. queen of sheba wrote:

   I’d love to listen to a conversation on this. I’m a white girl with a mixed sweetie, so I’m involved and definitely not objective; but mostly I’d just like to hear what folks have to say.

   And Thoughtful Kind Informative is an excellent criteria–a bit too subjective for my scientist incarnation to approve of, but there’s no way around that!

   Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 12:46 pm ¶

7. dodgerdodger wrote:

   I’d be disappointed if this site couldn’t host that discussion, because I would especially like to read something about interracial queer dating. People are generally aware of the fault lines surrounding Black/White and Asian/White heterosexual couples, but I know personally that there are different dynamics in the gay male world. Mostly lots of sexual fetishization of racial stereotypes, but occasionally some unique points of positive contact and interaction between races I haven’t caught elsewhere.

   Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 12:52 pm ¶

8. atlasien wrote:

   Heavy, heavy, heavy moderation. Heavier than than a heavy truckload of really heavy bricks. Heavier than Jupiter!

   Seriously, making sure everybody uses “some” when talking about any group of people will help. Don’t let any potentially inflammatory comment go through without “some” modifiers.

   Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 12:54 pm ¶

9. James wrote:

   Latoya, the answer is no.

   I’d love to sound a note of optimism here, but after watching threads on Asian American feminism and minority filmmaking get hijacked into more antagonistic IR debates over at Reappropriate, I’m convinced that online discussions of interracial dating cannot exist without personal attacks and ‘net anger.

   Sure, you could impose strict moderation on those comment threads, but what’s the use – for some, the only honest opinion they express on the subject involves vitriol and contempt.

   I’ve had to listen to more Asian men and Black women than I care to remember inform me that my personal choices are morally and politically suspect, but they forget the polite language. Each IR debate I’ve witness served no other purpose than to expose new variations on the epithet ’sellout’.

   So you can write the posts – what’s the point of a blog if the author can’t express herself – but you might want to prevent commenting on those posts. Seriously, online IR conversations never work, because if they really involve a multi-sided debate on the issues, no one stays polite.

   For most, it’s kinda hard to be nice when the other side considers you a detriment to your own identity because of their judgment of your personal choices.

   Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:00 pm ¶

10. marge twain wrote:

    I’m in an interracial marriage and I personally find it really offensive when people generalize about it or other people’s IR relationships, even when they claim they’re just relating their experience(”All the IR relationships I know are unequal/based on a fetish/somebody’s self hatred”) or that history must be destiny.

    The fact that it’s such a thorny issue indicates that discussion should be had. I would be interested in hearing people’s personal stories about how racial/ethnic differences have been dealt with, succesful or not.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:06 pm ¶

11. Eva wrote:

    I don’t know how I feel about this. I feel that life’s too short to analyze about this, you love who you love as long as it’s not illegal.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:11 pm ¶

12. Treacle wrote:

    It may also be interesting to talk about how views on interracial dating change by region.

    I’m a black woman dating a white man in the Southeast and we get lots of comments, stares, facial expressions, etc. that I’m not sure we’d receive if we lived somewhere else.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:11 pm ¶

13. Makwa wrote:

    I do wish this topic would get more discussion. I am a White/Aboriginal man married to a Black woman for fifteen years, who was with a black female partner for five years prior. I am generally identified (incorrectly, as I identify as First Nations) as white. I have experienced agressive and sometimes threatening encounters in public spaces with my spouse and/or my Black step-daughter, from both White and Black people. This public reaction has constrained our movements a number of times, and one always has to consider the level of risk before going out in public together. Nonetheless, the experience has encouraged me to develop more awareness about how race and racism plays out in our society, and despite some of the frightening scenes I’ve had to face, I cherish the time and space that I have had with my spouse, daughter and friends of different cultures. I hope that more people are at the stage whereby they can analyze multi-racial relationships and families in a positive way.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:25 pm ¶

14. CScarlet wrote:

    It would be nice to mention queer couples as well, the couple times threads started I didn’t really see it mentioned, and my longest relationship was interracial (I’m White, my ex is Asian) and we definitely ran into some of the same issues, and some unique ones, as hetero couples.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:29 pm ¶

15. Jade wrote:

    I recently wrote a blog entry on interracial dating on my school’s blog.

    check it out below:
    http://interculturalaffair.blogspot.com

    I wrote it from just the student standpoint of trying to date anyone at a PWI….but because POC are so few at my school, the numbers don’t always work out for you to date another POC. Plus, it bothers me that some people just think that I only date POC as if we must always get along and be attracted to one another.

    As for your post, IR dating is still a problem for a lot of people. I hope one day we can just all find someone attractive and not have the color of their skin be the determining factor in keeping a relationship alive or burying it.

    Honestly, it’s hard enough trying to find some love in this world. Cutting entire groups of people out of it will only doom me to be some spinstress in my 50s with no children!

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:40 pm ¶

16. Jade wrote:

    woops, the address is wrong above. The correct addy link is:

    http://interculturalaffairs.blogspot.com

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:41 pm ¶

17. Sulyp wrote:

    I think the point has been brought up a couple times, but yes, I too think Racialicious should cut a different path than the rest.

    Wouldn’t it be neat if there was an actual discussion on GLBT IR couples? I’m a straight woman, but I’d surely tune in for that one.

    Or how about IR couples living life in different countries other than the U.S.? That would definitely cast a wider fishnet.

    Or even let’s get even more ridiculously minute… how about intra-racial dating? You know, like a black American and an African? Or a Chinese Singaporean with an Indonesian?

    What I’m saying is, if you post the same kind of topics as other websites, why would you expect to get different results? If we cut outside the usual fault lines (AF/WM & BM/WF), people’s ability to look at things objectively is improved.

    I’m just throwing out some random ideas.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:45 pm ¶

18. Sewere wrote:

    Latoya,

    I really appreciate your asking this question. I’ve been prepping a post on Rachel’s Tavern on interracial dating from a Nigerian man’s perspective for almost a month now and I’m still trying to figure out how to present it without all hell breaking loose. I’m hoping to get some insight from the comments posted here.

    Cheers,
    Sewere

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:54 pm ¶

19. atlasien wrote:

    I like the idea of looking at intraracial, intercultural relationships.

    A related question to look at… what happens when class or culture creates a greater difference within the relationship than race, whether in an interracial or intraracial relationship?

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 1:57 pm ¶

20. summer wrote:

    My question is, “what is the objective of such a post.”

    Because if it’s just to “discuss” the topic(s) listed, then no, there’s no way to keep it clean because for whatever reasons people harbor some deep-seated emotions to the topic and are hungry for the opportunity to vent.

    I am really interested in what the point of such a talk would be. Who’s the target audience?

    Like Vee, I think that if it’s best discussed, then it’s best discussed between people involve(d) in IRs or products of.

    Otherwise, it’s just an energy-taking, emotionally-disturbing discussion waiting to happen.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 2:08 pm ¶

21. Shannon wrote:

    I guess I just don’t understand why this is such a big deal. You are attracted to who you are attracted to and love who you love. You can’t control that, it just is.
    I personally couldn’t care less if my white friend dates a black person, or asian person, or whatever.
    Actually I have a white male friend who is in a relationship with a black man – makes no difference to me as long as he’s good to my friend.
    I don’t understand why people would get so upset about this. Maybe I’m just naive that way…

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 2:10 pm ¶

22. lunanoire wrote:

    Latoya, I agree w/ James. You’ll have to do A LOT of moderating. It would be good to hear from people with a wide range of experiences.

    I think it’s a touchy issue b/c it’s intensely personal. While it’s not everything, dating/marriage/relationships that are healthy contribute to a person’s well being, and some people are involountarily single, sometimes for years because (in part) they do not have “high-on-the-racial-hierarchy-of-attractiveness/masculinity/femininity privilege.” This causes a LOT of emotional pain. This pain is often expressed in unproductive ways, but the pain of feeling unlovable (in the romantic sense) can really f*** with a person’s mind.

    It’s easy to talk about loving yourself and not caring about other’s opinions when you do get positive reinforcement in some area of your life from time to time.

    Like other forms of privilege, it’s easy for those who have the privilege to admit that what they have (easy access to dates, for example) is to some degree unearned.

    Also, certain IR patterns exist. If they did not, I think there would be less griping b/c then everyone would have a chance w/ everyone else of their desired gender and sexuality, at least regarding race. Of course, some people gripe about everything, so they’d still do so.

    I know a visibly physically disabled woman who went on about 50 first dates before she found her husband. Usually they were only one date per person. Love is NOT blind; it sees and accepts.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 2:15 pm ¶

23. Tony F. wrote:

    I’m a Latino in my early 40’s and I’m a single dad of a 16 year old son. My preference is for White Women. I have dated Black Women and my ex wife is a Latina. My experience has been (and I’m only speaking for myself) that White women are more open minded about interracial dating. I have also found them to be much less ashamed of their sexuality. White women seem much more open minded culturally, enjoying music ranging from hip hop to hard rock. And finally I have used dating sites to meet people and the majority of Women on there are White. I’ve taken a lot of heat from Latinas about my dating choices. Many of them resent that not only would I date a “blanca”(Spanish for White Girl) but that I would take her seriously. Their idea is that I should use them for sex and “stuff” and then “come back home” to a Latina. Many Latinas wouldn’t admit it but they think White women are “loose”. So maybe we should clean our respective backyards before looking askance at our neighbors. Oh and by the way most of the Latinas who critcize my dating White Women date Black Men not Latinos. Go figure.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 2:29 pm ¶

24. Shannon wrote:

    A P.S.
    In reading some of the comments that just recently posted I am completely floored and disgusted at what some people have experienced. I just cannot fathom how some people think it’s OK to intimidate and otherwise harass someone simply because their date/partner/spouse is a different shade.
    What a completely sad commentary on our society that people are subjected to that kind of treatment simply for loving who they love and that this even an issue in need of public discussion.
    Sad.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 2:34 pm ¶

25. sylvie wrote:

    i think the main obstacle in conducting civilized discussion on this topic is the anonymity of the internet. while it provides enough of a screen for people to feel comfortable in expressing their ideas, it also allows bigots and sexists to roam free, to push buttons for the sake of pushing buttons. i’ve written about this topic a lot and sometimes i wonder what it accomplishes, because it’s more of a lecture than a dialogue. i think we need to use our tech savvy to move this discussion into video so we can see each other because 1) we realize we’re talking about real people and not a generic racial grouping and 2) those who hop onto these types of forums just to offend people will have to show their faces, which i think will cut down on the number of bigots showing up overall. Plus, it’ll prep us to have this discussion in our everyday lives, something most people don’t do, at least in mixed company.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 2:35 pm ¶

26. The Cruel Secretary wrote:

    Hmmmm…a part of me agrees with James. Without you, Latoya, and Wendi taking a couple of days or weeks off from work (seriously! And visibly!) to moderate the thread, the thread–on the face of it–could be seen as not worth the bother.

    The other part–the part I’m siding with–
    *really* wants to see a discussion about IR dating. I’d love the topic suggestions so far, especially about IR dating in queer communities. I’m not sure if Malena at Curry Fried Chicken would like to offer her reflections about how she resolved her “Indian Man Fetish,” but that may be a great post. What about a PoC who emigrated to a country and dated/is dating PoC of another race or ethnic group, say a Japanese man dating a desi woman in the US?

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 2:44 pm ¶

27. Mikhaela Reid wrote:

    I’d say heavy moderation plus some ground rules (like not allowing the same cliched statements that come up in every discussion of IR to be used). But yes, I’d really like to see some respectful discussion and dialogue on this. I liked the comment that historical discussion would be interesting. And not just a discussion of IR rape and children born of colonization–which are all important parts of this topic… but also histories of interracial couples who loved each other openly in times and places when it was illegal and/or dangerous and/or surprising.

    I did a project for an Afro-American archaelogy class in college where researched the history of working class IR married couples (mostly black and Irish couples) living in a neighborhood in Boston in the late 1800s. I have to say I was really surprised to look at census records and see an entire large neighborhood where nearly half the couples were listed on the census as being black and white IR married couples (both white men with black women, but also black men and white women).

    So many of those discussions devolve into horrible flame wars and people from a variety of viewpoints saying the same generalized over-simplified and untrue and hurtful crap over and over. Whether it be people saying that “IR couples CAN’T be racist!” (BS) or “All black men who date white women are traitors” (BS) or whatever, those are not really productive comments. Like I said, some ground rules and “don’t post if this is all you have to say” would be nice.

    I also have to say that one of the reasons these discussions get so painful is that a lot of times it’s people arguing that IR couples (and perhaps by implication multiracial people) SHOULD NOT EXIST and DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST or are by nature oppressive/fetishistic/manifestations of self-hatred, etc. And it can hurt to feel like as a person in an IR relationship, your relationship is subject to a level of debate and scrutiny and accusation and suspicion that people in non-IR relationships don’t even have to consider. Not that IR relationships should be magically above scrutiny or critique or discussion. Still, it can be pretty emotionally stressful to feel damned and critiqued over who you love, who you marry, who you have children with, etc.

    It’s also hard because people who are both for and against IR relationships can be strange bedfellows and the views don’t fall along a neat right/left divide or an anti-racist/racist divide. Being in progressive circles can strangely enough sometimes expose you to MORE people who are strongly against IR relationships than you might encounter in the mainstream. There are CERTAINLY people who support IR relationships who are racist (for example, those who say multiracial children who are part white or light are “cuter” or “prettier”). And people who are openly interested ONLY in IR relationships or who are in IR relationships and have racial fetishes make me cry/cringe.

    So IR relationships are supported/engaged in both by groups of anti-racist people–and racist people. And IR relationships are also opposed by both racists and many who call themselves anti-racist or progressive. Because IR relationships are not inherently progressive or anti-progressive.

    Another interesting topic is how the struggle for IR marriage rights and the acceptance of IR relationships both parallels and does NOT parallel the debate/struggle over same-sex marriage/relationships. No politician (especially not a liberal one) would openly argue against IR marriage’s legality today–which doesn’t change the fact that it’s still something many, many, many people are against.

    OK, I need to stop rambling. But yes–good dialogue needed on this topic.

    For the record, I’m a white woman married to a black man.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 2:52 pm ¶

28. Arturo wrote:

    I think there’s room in an IR thread to discuss not just cultural expectations in terms of race, but of social niches, or particular social/music scenes.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 3:05 pm ¶

29. Eva wrote:

    @Jade, off topic a bit I find the label “spinsteress” a bit offensive. There is nothing wrong with not being married and not having children; believe me, it’s not all iti’s cracked up to be.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 3:28 pm ¶

30. brklyngrl wrote:

    My suggestion would be a specific topic or set of specific topics other than “Interracial relationships: How does everyone feel about them?” as well as a clear set of ground rules as far as what’s out of bounds.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 3:33 pm ¶

31. blue wrote:

    You talk about it like you talk about racism with white people…

    I’d suggest 1 of 2 ways. One is to take an accepted fact and ask what it means. so if we know that interracial dating has a gender bias to it, What does that mean? How does that affect the community if y% of one gender outmarries, leaving y% of their opposite sex in a position where if it’s hard to outmarry, they’re going to have to accept being single for the rest of their lives. Does outmarriage to caucasians correlate with increased social mobility for the rest of the race, or is it gender specific…

    The other is to have discussions specific to data or papers (without data, all you have is bad psychology and name calling). Maybe discussing the interesting speed dating papers out of Columbia or Hitsch, Hortacsu, and Ariely’s analysis of tens of thousands of online daters.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 3:50 pm ¶

32. china blue wrote:

    I have, uh, mixed feelings towards this discussion too. But there are interesting angles that Racialicious can open out:

    We can talk about genuinely self-hating PoC (they exist) and their reasons for wanting to date outside their race. Also, why are certain races fetishized?

    I’d like to hear about same-sex/different-race relationships, too. Being straight, I don’t hear about that.

    It would be interesting to talk about people who join race hate/anti-immigrant groups but have relationships with people outside their race. I’m thinking back to an article in Pride magazine, a UK publication, that talked about a black woman dating a man who was a member of a Far-Right organisation. The question being: what was the motivation, on either side?

    Also, there is the case of the white ballet dancer, Simone Clarke, who had a child with a Chinese/Cuban colleague and emigre, and then joined the BNP (British National Party, a Far-Right party). She is now engaged to one of the top guys in the BNP, and he’s said he will treat the child as his own.

    I was thinking of writing a post on my blog about my own experience; I dated only black guys, never thought I’d date anyone else, and bam! I fall in love with a white student at my college. Now most, not all, of the guys I have dated since are white.

    I have a friend who is African, and Muslim. Her husband is Muslim too, but his Pakistani family objected to the fact she was black. He stood his ground; they are married, with a happy family. Not all stories end so well, though.

    Pardon the ramble, but the gist is: from what I’ve read here, the discussion will go way past the standard ‘Oreo black man dates blonde women only’ stuff I’ve seen on the web, and I trust that you guys will have some fresh angles to explore. This topic is incendiary, but definitely due for a change in the way it’s discussed.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 3:53 pm ¶

33. Versai wrote:

    What about specific blog entries that center on a specific topic under the IR banner and then people can discuss/focus on that. Say one day a week, an IR entry. If the first few entries are from a point of view that people are not used to seeing (Queer POC for example), commenters will be forced to actually think before just repeating their standard response to IR issues.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 4:00 pm ¶

34. Ali wrote:

    @Mikhaela Reid – Your study on IR working class couples sounds really awesome. I would love to learn more about that topic. I rarely hear positive stories about IR couples during that time period let alone IR communities.

    @lunanoire – I loved your comment as well. Your acquaintance’s 50 first dates story sounds infinitely more interesting than Drew Barrymore’s!

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 4:11 pm ¶

35. Tara wrote:

    Oh damn, good topic! I have a couple of thoughts (well, actually many more than a couple, but just two that I’ll list here):

    1. I think it would also be great to talk about interracial dating from the perspective of bi/multiracial people, who by virtue of their being mixed, are often/mostly in interracial relationships, and what those experiences are like.

    2. I am of the unpopular opinion that attraction, to a degree, is mutable. I know that many people say that they like what they like and that will and can never change, and that may be true in many cases, but I also believe that things like racism, classism, sexism, ableism, etc. do have effects on who we find attractive. This is just my own personal anecdata, but I found my “types” shifting to be more expansive at the same time that my political philosophies and understandings of the world expanded. So, I think it would be really interesting (though possibly explosive) to talk about race and romantic relationships and how our types can be influenced and shaped by the outside world.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 4:12 pm ¶

36. Claudia wrote:

    More than all of the quasi-sociological or psychological angles you could take with this issue, I’d rather hear about stories from individuals who have thought a lot about this issue and how it informs the relationships that they have. You could discuss how interracial relationships are talked about, how they’re represented in media, etc. That’s not exactly the newest approach to the issue but it’s pretty much the only meaningful way to discuss general perceptions of interracial relationships. When it comes down to talking about who is really dating whom, and why, however, generalizations are difficult to make. Yes, it’s true that there are power dynamics active in every human relationship, whether it’s platonic or romantic or sexual, but we always run the risk of reducing real lived experiences to statistics. I’d be most interested to hear from individuals who are aware of the power dynamics, of the stereotypes, etc, and how they negotiate who and how they date/marry/love despite – or because of – those issues.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 4:39 pm ¶

37. Jen* wrote:

    I have to agree with Tara – I think you *can* help who you fall in love with (to a degree). Certainly, your tastes and attractions can be changed with age, experience, education, etc. And normally, falling in love comes out of attraction [whether it be physical or mental].

    A discussion of what the phrase, “But I can’t help who I fall in love with!” really means, would be interesting to me. To me, there’s a difference between being an ‘equal-opportunity dater’ and specifically targeting one race over another or specifically ruling out one or more races.

    As for comment-policing – I doubt that things will stay completely civil. It’s one of those topics…but I think this would be THE place to have the convo [more than anywhere else].

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 5:57 pm ¶

38. Tony F. wrote:

    Arturo makes a good point when he says that any discussion of IR can’t take place without looking at our culture(s). As a Latino I notice that minorities tend to enforce an orthodoxy of attitudes and tastes on themselves and anyone who goes “outside the box” is not “real”.

    Chinablue rightly asks why certain races are fetishized. I think it’s because in one way or another there is still a “forbidden fruit” aspect to IR dating. I also think that some people date IR in order to experience a culture that they are not a part of but can sort of participate in by proxy.

    The fact that we’re talking about this is terrific. But it also points out how messed up we still are about this topic. I wish I could live to see the day where this isn’t an issue anymore.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 6:03 pm ¶

39. EH wrote:

    Hmm has it been a problem here before?? I know it’s a touch subject but I can’t really remember the discussions being out of control or anything.

    I also agree with whoever above said it would be nice to simply move the discussion to something beyond black/white and white/asian. I also wouldn’t mind GLTB discussions myself just because it’s an issue I don’t know too much about and would love to hear other’s opinions and personal experiences regarding it.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 6:21 pm ¶

40. Linda wrote:

    1) I would like to see more issues concerning, intra-racial relations, as well as people of different religions dating. Also dating amongst PoC would be great to hear about the cultural barriers.

    2) I think discussing IR relations in the LGBT community is a great idea.

    3)I also think you should tackle racism, in IR relationships. The whole ” you can’t be racist if you’re in an IR relationship” would be a heated debate!

    4) It would also be great to discus colorism in IR and IR relationships, this can be done by tagging it to Taras second point.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 6:45 pm ¶

41. Paul wrote:

    Many people posting need to check themselves. If these sort of posts occurred on a “white” website, then many POCs would rightly be up in arms. I believe one of the essential elements of a tolerant society is minding your own business. If a black woman falls in love with a white man, good for them. If a Latino man cares deeply for an Asian man, then bully for them. We need to support loving relationships and not assume that every IR is some sort of race fetish.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 7:02 pm ¶

42. pat m. wrote:

    depends on what your goals are.

    if it’s “discussion” for the sake of discussion’s sake, then go ahead and do it. but personally, i wouldn’t expect anything to come of the discussion. it’s been my experience that people are rarely willing to yield any ground from their ‘position’ once they feel like they’re being attacked, especially on the internet, and practically any IR discussion is going to make any involved party feel defensive. certainly the WM/AF conversations that go off a few times a year never fail to make both anyone involved feel like an injured party.

    if you absolutely have to do it, formulate a clear set of goals before taking this one on.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 7:06 pm ¶

43. laura wrote:

    One of the reasons why I like this blog is because it seems to have the most civil/level-headed discussions about race, which are, as a result, more productive. I’m sure it’s in part because of the moderation policy, but I also want to believe that it’s because people are more respectful in this space. I would be so sad if a discussion here devolved into name calling.

    I’m totally in favor of this. I know a few people who have had IR relationships, but other than my fiance, I’ve never really discussed their experiences with them. I do think that it should be approached differently, whether thats acknowledging that experiences are going to be different in different parts of the country, looking at GLBT issues (v. cool), or any of the things already mentioned. I would be kind of interested in looking at gender differences in IR relationships, but I feel, like discussions about which IR combos are more acceptable, that it could potentially devolve more quickly. I don’t know how widely applicable, but I would be interested in the effects of massive cultural differences. I know when my friend married a Mongol man in Mongolia, there was discussion about whether or not they would be able to survive the cultural differences–and while that bothered me because the person I was talking to had a fairly stereotyped view of Mongolians–I would like to know about other people’s experiences trying to integrate different cultures into their lives.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 7:24 pm ¶

44. South African Can wrote:

    Self-hate should definatly be a topic as in many of the cases that I`ve seen has been an issue within / reason for dating IR.

    asian woman: ” never in my life would i date an asian, they are FOBy I`m going to marry a white man”

    indian man: ” there is nothing wrong with other races its just when you have an option of a hot blonde blue-eyed girl and brown/asian/black/native american woman you choose the blonde ”

    black woman: “i want my babies to have good hair ”

    white man: ” white woman are too lose and blah looking ”

    . . mind you these people range from 14 years of age to 18 . I`m only 15 ; it`s shame . love / lust is and should be colourless .

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 7:31 pm ¶

45. Lisa S. wrote:

    I agree with pp whjo have said that the conversation would need to have an objective and not just be an open forum. Perhaps a few guiding questions that would focus the discussion.

    Also, I would love to see some information on inter-racial families.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 7:56 pm ¶

46. Naomi wrote:

    The topic of interracial dating is timely as America approaches the 41st anniversary of Loving vs. Virginia on June 12th ( the Supreme Court decision that ended the practice of making interracial marriages a crime).

    I appreciate that the focus of this blog is pop culture. It would be interesting however to dialogue on the contribution of historical context as well as current issues.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 8:19 pm ¶

47. Aaron wrote:

    I read a comment on a blog a couple weeks ago where someone was saying that all of the best discussions they had ever had were in classes at their university. I think it was St. John’s. Anyhow, what made the discussions always respectful and constructive, even when their was much division, was that in all classes, students were expected to address each other as Misses, Miss, or Mister ____. Now, we probably couldn’t quite do that here, but you could require that all comments be addressed directly to somebody. I think, and hope, that would help reduce the whole internet anonymity factor that makes people more likely to just get out of hand. If the comment is more about the post in general, and not to somebody else that has already commented, the comment should be addressed to you, Latoya, or whoever wrote the post.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 8:39 pm ¶

48. Yilun wrote:

    Topics to explore: Best place for raising a mixed family (depending on the mix) and how to talk to your SO’s family about race (maybe your own family too). I don’t think generalized conversations work well, because people have so many different experiences. People with mixed friends, family, and ex’s (or of another race) understand that it isn’t so much race, but rather individual peculiarities. People without that first hand experience should get some or keep quiet.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 8:59 pm ¶

49. Sean wrote:

    If Racialicious can’t do it, NO ONE can!!!!!!

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 9:53 pm ¶

50. Kelvin wrote:

    Hi Latoya,

    Avid reader of this blog (great job Carmen & Co).

    I think you can have a healthy debate on interracial dating/marriage as long as there are boundaries set before any debate. I think people need to understand that personal opinions should not be forces on others. Basically, people state their opinions in a respectful manner and then keep it moving.

    Personally, I don’t believe in discussing personal dating choices with others because I feel that it opens ones choice to unwanted input from strangers.

    I think some topics that could be addressed are:

    (1) Black women and men of other races
    (2) Individuals from an Arab and or Persian background dating outside of that ethnic group.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 10:51 pm ¶

51. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Wow, this open thread was the right decision.

    Thanks for the great ideas everyone. You’ve certainly given me a lot to work on!

    Some more notes:

    1. Yes, these will be very targeted conversations. The open discussions are generally reserved for short pieces, these would be longer generally focusing on one or two main questions.

    2. Main goals: Challenging perceptions, prompting introspection, discussing the ideas of community and how that applies to dating.

    3. Hearing a lot of support for GBLT areas and historical information, as well as getting away from rehashing the same old conversations. Noted. We may bring up scenarios that are a little familiar, but they will focus on a different aspect of IR Dating.

    4. To those of you who don’t really think this is worth discussing (because love is love), come back to me after you read my first planned post, “The Interracial Hate Stare.”

    5. I’ll be tapping a lot of guest contributors for this series. If you know of someone you want to recommend (or if you want to volunteer yourself) let me know.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 11:19 pm ¶

52. jvansteppes wrote:

    I am so on the queer bandwagon for having an IR discussion and if any of the other bent folks here know of good queer sites that have good discussions please share them with me because I’m new to this whole blogging atmosphere.

    As Sean touched on above, if you can’t do it here I think we’re all in for trouble. I have optimism about Racialicious being a place where people CAN honor their own experiences and viewpoints without getting caught up in defensive arguments, even if that happens sometimes.

    As a white queer woman who has dated POC in the past and fallen deeply in love with them I want to offer too that I do think its possible to be critiqued on the power dynamics inherent in those relationships WITHOUT taking it as a personal attack or suggestion that I do/did a bad job of loving a partner. All relationships come with power dynamics [heterosexuality anyone?] and it shouldn’t be taboo to think about them as long as people are respectful and express ourselves honestly enough not to get defensive…

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 11:27 pm ¶

53. mga wrote:

    More people have commented on this one post than on many others combined. Clearly this is a subject that everyone is interested in. Where has censoring entire subjects of conversation ever gotten us as society?

    Racialicious is all about exploring the topics that may be uncomfortable or controversial and having meaningful discourses about them. I would be really disappointed to see you deem a topic “too dangerous”.

    These conversations need to be out in the open, even if they get hostile. I’m sure some light moderation couldn’t hurt – but only when negative posts are getting personal. But if the post is expressing any opinion on the topic at hand, even if it is an incredibly ignorant one, needs to be posted as much as the next one.

    This is, unfortunately, still a controversial subject that could get UGLY. But that ugliness is truth and it needs to be seen.

    Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 11:35 pm ¶

54. Barry wrote:

    Yes Latoya!

    Please, Please, Please write about inter racial dating!

    I wonder if you’ve had a chance to read the
    FocusedPurpose blog?

    http://focusedpurpose.blogspot.com/2008/04/eliminating-our-proof.html

    They have a feature on Kola Boof, the famous writer whose father, an Arab, was killed because he married an African woman in Khartoum, the Sudan.

    The essay by Kola Boof features a discussion of “colorism,” which is another topic I would like you to cover in your most unique way.

    In case you haven’t heard of Kola Boof, may I suggest that you start with some of her very fine essays:

    http://www.amazon.com/Long-Train-Redeeming-Sin-Stories/dp/0971201900/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207809162&sr=1-3

    or her autobiography – THE DIARY OF A LOST GIRL:

    http://www.amazon.com/Diary-Lost-Girl-Kola-Boof/dp/1592320120/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207809162&sr=1-1

    Good Luck & Best Wishes,
    I know you will do well,

    Barry

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 1:37 am ¶

55. Abbi wrote:

    Hmmm..this is the most I’ve ever seen people talk about talking about something. Isn’t it time to just discuss it?? And personally, I don’t seewhy people who post comments on this blog would turn things malicious. I’ve read many posts on biracialism and people are comfortable discussing that. Are some people okay with that and not where it comes from, i.e. interracial relationships?

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 5:38 am ¶

56. CMEdwards wrote:

    I think one of the voices often missing (for some strange reason) is that of white women and men engaged in interracial relationships. Often the conversation seems steered by “members of the choir”.

    My boyfriend and I live on Cape Cod in MA, where the only few people of color are the Portugese and Jamaicans. My boyfriend surprised me with a blog post about his feelings on race, particularly in his native Chatham. Check it out at http://monomoyick.com/.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 6:13 am ¶

57. deesha wrote:

    I’d like to see a discussion that addresses the stereotyping that lives behind SOME people’s decision to date interracially (i.e., black men who won’t date black women because black women are [insert your favorite stereotype here]). I’ve raised this point in every online discussion about IR that I’ve participated in, and it goes ignored by people who think no one should ever comment about IR love (i.e., “love is love”).

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 7:37 am ¶

58. Ms. Four wrote:

    As a mother of black sons, is there anything I can/should do to encourage them to date black girls? (When they are much, much older of course.)

    I can make sure we live in a community with a diversity of people of color. But what about after that?

    And, is it bad to encourage my kids to date black women only? Or women of color? Or should this mom keep her opinions to herself?

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 7:46 am ¶

59. MNC wrote:

    I think that most topics about “interracial dating” are problematic from the jump because they uncritically and automatically embrace the false concept of race.

    The “issue” or “problem” is not that people who don’t look alike are getting together, the “problem” is not examining the social and political structures that create the frenzy of emotions from those outside and inside of so called “interracial” interactions.

    Another problem with the discussion is the lack of separating the idea of love and sex or committed relationships and fetishized booty calls.

    I think that the issues surrounding these relationships must be discussed through the lense of the historical, social, and political aspects of race in America.

    From that jump off you can look at how “race” and “racial politics” are formed in other countries, and how those relationships are viewed from that prism.

    “Interracial dating/relationships” or whatever you want to call them are affected by much larger issues and I think that uncritically embracing the notion of “race” through language (interracial is a big linguistically problem if you want to take the discussion in a new place) will lead to the same old conversations.

    I also agree with one of the posters who discussed the working class Irish and African American marriages in the 1800s.

    A little historically perspective goes a long way to not turning humanity into a freakshow.

    And that’s the bottom line, “race” and “racism” have crippled us with regard to recognizing the humanity in others who don’t look like us.

    So far removed are we from a common humanity because of “race” that we have to examine and pick apart “issue” of people choosing to love, bone, or simply befriend someone who is different from themselves.

    That’s the real discussion and that’s the real problem.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 8:32 am ¶

60. Lyonside wrote:

    >is it bad to encourage my kids to date black women only? Or women of color?

    Depends on your reasons. If you flip this statement or add negatives [i.e. "is it bad to discourage my kids from dating black women or women of color?"] I’m sure you see the problems I and many people here are going to have.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 8:39 am ¶

61. deesha wrote:

    Ms. Four: ICYMI, a few years back, Essence ran a piece written by one of their staffers (an editor, IIRC), Audrey Edwards, called “Bring Me Home a Black Girl.” In it she gave the reasons why she gave this exhortation to her then-teenaged stepson. She cited statistics about low marriage rates among black women, and the idea of keeping our economic power “in the (collective black) family.” (Now this is all from Swiss cheese memory, so don’t quote me).

    Anyway, all hell broke loose in subsequent months, in the Letters to the Editors with folks of all colors weighing in on both sides of the issue.

    I believe you can find some of this discourse online if you Google. I think Edwards began an exchange at Slate or Salon or somewhere, with her critics.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 9:24 am ¶

62. Ailurophile wrote:

    This is a great topic, and I think of all sites, Racialicious has one of the best potentials to turn this into a fruitful discussion rather than poo-flinging. The calibre of discussion here is higher than most sites!

    Nthing the “I’d like to see more LGBT perspectives on IR relationships.” Also, more discussion of IR relationships between two POC.

    The intersection of gender issues in IR relationships has always interested me. For instance: Women are the ones who are more invested in relationships and are perceived as more responsible for them (for an extreme example, see “Dr.” Laura saying that Eliot Spitzer would never have cheated if Silda had been a good wife!). How does this translate specifically to IR’s? If there are compromises and sacrifices to be made, is it the woman who winds up doing most of the compromising and sacrificing?

    Finally, there is the eternal “woman as gatekeeper” issue. If there is a gender disparity in dating, it’s teh wimminz who are to blame…they’re fussy, if a man doesn’t live up to their high racial and otherwise standards she’ll turn him down flat; meanwhile if men controlled the relationship arena, we’d all have one big happy multiracial orgy/family! I for one do not believe this, and feel it’s much more complex than this. This is where going into LGBT/queer issues would tear the focus away from heterosexual blaming.

    One more thing: Lunanoire, above, brought up the interesting issue of “attractiveness privilege” as tied into race and ethnicity. I’d love to see some discussion of that.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 9:33 am ¶

63. MoeHailstone wrote:

    The thing that happens alot is that the sistas start attacking brothas that do. Its as predictable as the arguments are for dating outside the black race. For one, all included need to hear what someone is saying and try to think of it outside of themselves and from another persons perspective.

    Me, I have nothing against interracial dating at all and have for years. It doesn’t bother me when I see it no matter who it is…bw/wm, bm/wf, hm/wf, hm/bf, wm/af, am/wf etc..etc..etc…

    The world is so different than years past that everyone is mixed into the same social and work settings that you’re exposed to a more diverse array of people. With that you’ll be attracted to different types.

    What most people don’t want to admit is how boring and stale dating the same type of person can become. It happens with personality types and can also happen with race.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 10:06 am ¶

64. MoeHailstone wrote:

    Yeah…lets do it

    The rulebook is that others have to listen to what others have to say and realize that they’re not talking about them personally. Be adults….

    If those that are opposed to it start attacking something…they gotta go…

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 10:11 am ¶

65. queer hapa wrote:

    Ms. Four wrote: “As a mother of black sons, is there anything I can/should do to encourage them to date black girls? (When they are much, much older of course.) …

    “And, is it bad to encourage my kids to date black women only? Or women of color? Or should this mom keep her opinions to herself?”

    What if they don’t want to date women at all? I think the best thing you can do as a mom is to be as open as possible.

    And yeah, ditto on ground rules, ditto on discussing queer IR relationships, ditto on non-white IR relationships.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 10:26 am ¶

66. Ailurophile wrote:

    Ms. Four’s comment raises a question for me that might be worthy of discussion: What is the role of parents in IR relationships? Do adult children still expect to take their parents’ wishes in mind when it comes to their own relationships?

    There is a professor at Stanford, Michael Rosenfeld, who wrote a book called “The Age of Independence” – its theory was that the rise in interracial and same-sex relationships was tied with the increasing independence of young adults from their parents from the 1960’s onward. Here’s the link to Dr. Rosenfeld’s site – the book is discussed there and there are some working papers in PDF on the same subject:

    http://www.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/

    I know that in some cultures young adults are not independent of their parents, and in other families the adult kids still take their parents’ wishes in mind when it comes to marriage partners. However, with most “white” people at least, too much dependence on parents is a relationship deal-breaker – witness the “living in his parents’ basement” jokes.

    And there’s the old saying: “a son’s a son until he takes a wife, but a daughter’s a daughter, all her life” – in some cultures that’s reversed, and SONS are closer to their parents.

    And how does the parents issue impact LGBT couples?

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 10:43 am ¶

67. Ms. Four wrote:

    Thanks, all.

    I’m not inclined to encourage my sons to date anyone in particular (and I should have clarified that whether they bring home black, brown, white, beige, or purple, male or female, as long as that person is a good person who is good to them–it’s all good with me).

    But I don’t want them to get harassed for not being black enough. Eh, they probably will anyway… I guess that’s one of their many burdens to bear.

    Thanks for the resource suggestions.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 11:02 am ¶

68. deesha wrote:

    Ailurophile, thanks for that link. Maybe I’ll write something about this for AntiRacistParent.

    When the Audrey Edwards piece ran in Essence, I really like the then-EIC’s response the following month. She wrote: “I will not encourage my daughter to date black. I will encourage her to date well.”

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 11:02 am ¶

69. Afro-America Writer wrote:

    Great topic for discussion. I’ve been thinking about the said topic f0r my blog from the perspective of a multi-cultural female – me. I live in South Florida where for the most part, inter-racial relationships are quite common.

    Years ago, some college friends of mine who were from Orlando and Tallahasse areas of Florida made the observation they have not seen anything in such amount like it until they relocated to South Florida.

    Personally, I have no preference, which doesn’t mean I haven’t question a few brothers desires who choose to date anyone but a black woman while getting angry when black sisters date outside their race.

    If the offer to volunteer is still available – I volunteer myself.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 12:04 pm ¶

70. bdsista wrote:

    Ms. Four , you have the right to encourage your sons to date in relation to what are your values. My issue is that unless other Mothers are open to encouraging their sons to date Black women in addition to all the other races, then if you don’t who will Black women marry. There was an article in Newsweek some years ago about Black women who will never marrry for a variety of reasons. It was very sad.
    I would love to see a discussion here on IR, but I would like people to identify their ages. There are vast differences about what people feel and why based upon age, location and experience. I find that younger people are doing more IR dating, but when I grew up it was taboo and in many cases dangerous. That certainly can affect your perspective on being open to other races and having preferences for your own.
    I also like Deesha would like to have an honest discussion about why.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 1:56 pm ¶

71. Bohemian Writer wrote:

    LaToya, thanks for bringing this topic up! I have seen plenty of great posts & as a black woman from Trinidad, I’d like for you to focus on black women from the Caribbean & interracial dating that occurs there but how West Indian women interact with other men.

    In the Caribbean, especially in my country, there are many black women with Desi/Indian men as well as East Asian (specifically Chinese) men. Remind us that white is not the ONLY option for interracial dating. There are Latinos, Asians, Middle Easterners, the list goes on.

    Also, could we spend some time working on eliminating that negative percentage of black women who will supposedly NOT marry. This is really important to me as a black woman who desires a fulfilling, long-lasting marriage.

    So in summary: eliminating the “42% of black women never marry” stereotype & non-white men with black women in interracial relationships.

    God bless,
    Bohemian Writer

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 2:38 pm ¶

72. Aaron wrote:

    Reading all these comments, I’m very excited for upcoming discussions on IR relationships.

    I definitely think this can work. There are a lot of great ideas here to help keep things in line. But most importantly, if everyone here who is also excited about it makes sure to contribute positively to these discussions, they certainly will succeed. There will be trolls and hotheads, but if everyone else just refuses to take their bait, and keeps responses constructive, it will work out in the end.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 2:45 pm ¶

73. Ali wrote:

    I think their have been some excellent suggestions here. Intra-racial and IR relationships between LGBT POCs really stands out to me. I would also be particularly interested in hearing about the experiences of groups perceived to be “left out” by IR dating patterns. Specifically black women and Asian men. Are there any interesting stories or trends evolving from these groups? If so how is this influenced by or mirrored in popular culture – films like Akira’s Hip Hop Shop immediately come to mind.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 3:13 pm ¶

74. just a though wrote:

    Based on many of these comments, perhaps the best way to handle this is through an ongoing series of guest-posting. Essentially, individuals who are currently, or have previously been, IR dating could submit mini essays to racalicious. then those essays could be posted, allowing for threads that looked at the more discrete situations/experiences raised in those essays.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 3:16 pm ¶

75. Sean wrote:

    As a black man who’s in a fantastic relationship with an Asian woman, I’d enjoy a dialogue with other people who are in an IR relationship, and those who are the progeny of such relationships. It would be really insightful to discuss the challenges and attributes of these relationships.

    Unfortunately, the anonymity of the internet invites all kinds of bitter and racist people with a case of “courage-dot-com” to voice their two-bit “opinions”.

    Because of the hot-button nature of the topic, there MUST be a moderator(s), but here’s an idea that might make the moderator’s life a little easier: there should be a way to “flag” a post as inappropriate. If someone posts something negative, racist, or an inappropriate personal attack, someone can flag it and bring it to the mod’s immediate attention. This would help ensure a productive, educational discourse, instead of the usual emotional and pointless, circular, “bash and bicker” this subject tends to inspire.

    Like I said, if Racialicious can’t do it, no one can.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 4:19 pm ¶

76. Molly wrote:

    I’d say, separate heavily moderated comment-focused posts (anything that ends with “what do you think?” or the like) from essay or informative posts. Lock comments on the latter. That way, if the first kind gets out of hand and you don’t want to deal with it, YOU can still talk about IR dating.

    But I admit, I hope we can have real discussion, ’cause I have a dog in this fight (my girlfriend’s Chinese, and I worry that my trying to be a white anti-racist annoys her, but I’m not sure how to ask without being, well, an annoying white anti-racist who expects POCs to educate her).

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 5:40 pm ¶

77. muffinsinegypt wrote:

    I don’t think I am adding anything new here when I say that this is, simply, a very personal issue. But maybe that is why we need to keep trying to have the conversation, even if it gets derailed a lot and has to be brought back to focus. I think I have had a lot of very unproductive conversations on the topic, and also shied away from them because of all the personal implications. I agree that we need to get outside of the white/black, white/asian, and maybe white/anything else box, but since I am a white woman myself I have to be honest in putting forth those topics that involve me personally: How do you have a conversation about race (whether it is an actual conversation or just an acknowledgment of and engagement with the world and the systems that run it) if you are ‘the white one’? Do you never bring it up? Must you bring it up? How do you bring it up?

    My last, and most disastrous relationship was with someone who I realized (actually he had expressed these views early on, but I was still starstruck at that point) expected me to be exactly that imaginary white woman that black men are supposedly leaving black women for (and he would go off on rants about black women, despite the fact that he was a huge leader in his community, and seemed to have a deep respect for all the black women in his life). But I never figured out how a white girl from a small town in the North Country could tell a black man from the deep South that he had messed-up ideas about race. I did attempt the messed-up ideas about women…clearly this particular man was a little far gone (and, I think, extrapolating from a few bad experiences to an entire group of people), and when I realized that I got out, fast! but maybe my main question is, how do people in an interracial relationships approach the power dynamics involved between them in any discussion of race?

    Also, what if you never date anyone from your own race? The last time a white guy asked me out was at least five years ago, and it was absolutely out of the question. I’m not saying that it’s never going to happen, but I don’t like the idea of thinking that I’m with my current boyfriend just because I couldn’t ‘get’ someone of my own race, or because I can ‘get’ someone better if I am in a culture that has beauty standards more suited to my body, blah blah blah…but how do you decide if you have issues surrounding race and relationships? Is it always necessary to analyze this?

    Do you need to identify with your own ‘race’? Are you always, even, unconsciously, identifying with one ‘race’ or another…or actively dis-identifying with it? And then, where does culture come into play? Is it fair to say that you prefer one culture to another? Or that you prefer some aspects of that culture? Is it fair to seek that culture out? Is it fair to appreciate that culture as ‘part’ of your SO, a side benefit, perhaps? Is it fair to classify those benefits separately as a part of ‘culture’, rather than, say, their personality, their tastes, their habits, or their family? Is it fair NOT to acknowledge your SO’s culture? Your own? Could you replace ‘fair’ in any of these questions with ’silly’?

    I guess these are a lot of questions, and maybe some of them are self-perpetuating, rising out of and creating more anxiety about love…which we would like to think could transcend all this kind of anxiety. But I ask them all in earnest, and I look forward to this future, moderated, and hopefully new and special discussion of IR in the future.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 6:12 pm ¶

78. muffinsinegypt wrote:

    hmm i realized that bit about ‘absolutely out of the question’ could be taken wrong…I meant that person happened to be an ‘out of the question’ person (i.e., nothing in common, coming on too strong, out of nowhere, poor personal hygiene, blah blah blah before this devolves into insults, probably he is a well-adjusted young man now, wasn’t at the time).

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 6:25 pm ¶

79. Paul wrote:

    LaToya,
    The “Interracial Hate Stare” is an interesting turn of a phrase. I’m in an IR and have seen it from people of all races. My solution is to think thusly, “I love who I’m with and why the Hell should I care what some douche on the street thinks?” It amazes me that people allow others to impact their lives in such a manner. Why should anyone care what some random person thinks of them? People need to get some stones and not be bothered by the opinions of pinheads.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 8:55 pm ¶

80. jstele wrote:

    Just ban people who get out of line. Saves time. It also keeps people on their toes to stay in line.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 9:14 pm ¶

81. jstele wrote:

    Make people register and ban their IP’s if they get out of line.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 9:16 pm ¶

82. Ailurophile wrote:

    I thought of another thing (yup I’m full of thoughts today!): This isn’t about *dating* per se, but it is about relationships: Interracial blended families. Say a black woman has a kid with a white guy, and then comes out as a lesbian and is in a relationship with a Latina woman. They are raising a biracial child. Or a divorced white woman with a couple of white kids then marries an Asian man. Does he have special issues with being a non-white stepdad to white kids? What about the kids issues with him?

    There are probably thousands of posts that can be made on the IR relationship issue. Racialicious has a very high calibre, overall, of comments – it seems the trolls get smacked down or banninated quickly enough that they go elsewhere for their fun. It seems to me there is fruitful potential for in-depth discussion.

    Posted 10 Apr 2008 at 10:47 pm ¶

83. angryyoungwoman wrote:

    A few years back, I was in a very serious IR relationship.. I’m white, he was hispanic. The relationship lasted for five years off and on when we finally got engaged. He broke it off because of concerns about my health and upcoming surgeries. I come from a small town that’s probably 99% white, but for some reason it didn’t ocurr to me that people might think our relationship was some kind of big deal–I was just hopelessly in love. It was weird, though, all these people came out of the woodwork to “warn” me about hispanic men. They were saying stuff like “he’s going to stifle you, these men want their women as servants, etc.” One of my professors even had us read a paper in our class about why interracial marriage was bad. When I told him I thought that was offensive, he told me I was sinning and he just wanted to protect any future children I might have from the bane of being mixed. It made me pretty blasted upset. Finally, once my man and I were shopping in a jewelry store and the owner refused to serve us and made us leave. I just broke down and cried. I’d never experienced anything like that–I think that’s when I most realized what white privelege is.

    Another friend of mine was in an IR relationship after highschool–wm/bf. He’d moved away and they’d met and had a child. Someone was pretty upset about this and stabbed him to death.

    So my experiences with IR relationships may not have been the best, but that’s only because of societal weirdness. I had a really good relationship with my boyfriend. It’s a shame the people around us didn’t want us to be happy.

    Posted 11 Apr 2008 at 1:08 am ¶

84. jvansteppes wrote:

    PS: Queer Hapa, if you’re the author of the Queer Hapa Zine, I just wanted to say I loved it.

    forgive me for the aside.

    Posted 11 Apr 2008 at 2:01 am ¶

85. Lyonside wrote:

    >it seems the trolls get smacked down or banninated quickly enough that they go elsewhere for their fun

    You know, while the mods need to go through the first wave, it may be helpful for the IR thread commentators to have an unofficial “ignore them” policy.

    Happens on Shakesville a lot when people don’t have the energy or time to AGAIN say the SAME thing to someone (usually a repeat commentor or a version thereof) – just refer them to a prior post or comment, and ignore. Otherwise, a lot of time and energy could go into correcting derailments… but this way, noone can whine “You’re censoring me!” No, we’re ignoring you. Totally different.

    Posted 11 Apr 2008 at 5:50 am ¶

86. JustPlainOl'Me wrote:

    Not sure if this comment has already been made, but are just talking about interracial “dating.” Does the discussion end after you’ve gone beyond dating and taken the step of marriage? I’d argue that they should be part of the same category of discussion, even if not the same exact thing.

    Posted 11 Apr 2008 at 12:19 pm ¶

87. EvilAngelfish wrote:

    I think it might be interesting to briefly discuss why some people have such extreme reactions to interracial relationships and why certain types of interracial relationships are seen as worse/more intolerable than others. I know it’s ridiculously hypocritical of me but when I see couples consisting of an asian woman and a white man, I am immediately suspicious of the man’s motives for being with the woman, because I’ve known far too many white guys who only have one thing in mind when dating asian women (and it’s not her heart). However, I am strangely pleased whenever I see a couple consisting of an asian man and a white woman (or, an asian man and any non-asian woman). I know from whence my discomfort stems as it relates to af/wm couples and it’s not the idea that people should stick to their own kind and I’m aware that at the end of the day, other peoples’ relationship choices have nothing to do with me but I wonder if others have taken the time to examine their discomfort and what steps they’ve taken to overcome it.

    Posted 11 Apr 2008 at 1:14 pm ¶

88. MoeHailstone wrote:

    Whatever you do don’t tailor the situation down to some goofy off the wall pocket that 1/18% of the rest of us would identify with.
    Left handed black bohemian female and asian (from Korea and not Garden Grove, CA) male with a limp. You do this you don’t have a real discussion on IR dating period. One of the resons that so many migrate to specific couplings is because they’re the most prevalent. There are still room to discuss other couplings but if you pattern it after the not so common…the majority of IR relationships wont get addressed which would defeat the point of doing it.

    Have discussions on different subject points be it a power dynamic or a regional dynamic, the responses dictate if more will be discussed.

    Posted 11 Apr 2008 at 4:03 pm ¶

89. Jackie wrote:

    Like many of the other posters, I think we could have this conversation but it would definitely need ground rules.

    I’m a Black lesbian, my long time partner is Latina. After 13 years together, the stories we could tell you!

    Posted 15 Apr 2008 at 6:45 pm ¶

90. Culturallycool wrote:

    Great topic I’ve been in IR relationships for over 40 years. I take a different approach which is I don’t give a damn.
    Never once did I ever fear racisim or let anybody tell me who to not family, friends,religion nothing.
    I do not need other people’s opinions or view.
    I agree that there are some places in this country that are not culturallycool.
    After all it is America where they vote for people like dumbnut bush for president.

    Posted 17 Apr 2008 at 10:48 am ¶

91. The March Hare wrote:

    To put an end to any speculation and any statements that may potential hurt some ones feelings or appear racist. I will let everyone knwo that there has been a few very scientific researches done on the matter of Racial preference when it comes to dateing.. Mind you the study was done in the US in “melting pot” areas. Very progressive areas as well. Now all the possible variables were looked into includeing wealth and zip code and any thing you can possibly think of..Numbers were even taken for the doubting thomas’s interested in the topic that understand the charts. It is so far a proven fact that due to purely preference most people tend to want someone from their own race including gaymen and lesbians. This shows why in NYC there are so many different ethnic “pieces of pie”.ONe doesn’t even have to do a study nature has done it for us. Mind you all other possible reasons other than preference that may have effected this study were accounted for and they made little to no difference. Women were the most likely candidates to want to stay to their own race when it came to dateing and marriage. Hopefully this will clear up any misunderstandings about people basing their relationships on anatomy, or “differnet flavours’ there will be some of these types in every race but they are very few and not growing in numbers. Most liekly people that base their relationships on sex or “flavours” have problems. In other words scientific studies prove that people prefer their own race even the most “progressive” of peoples. the study was done on “progressives”. I may sound biased even though I don’t mean to. However the study was anything but biased toward any group at all. If you do not believe me..Look it up. Search Racial dating preferences. Hope that helps eliminate any un clear thoughts and mis founded ideas. all the best-Marchy.

    Posted 28 Jun 2008 at 12:29 am ¶

92. Parke wrote:

    I know this post is a little late, but I am having a lot of thoughts on this topic myself.

    I think a really good idea would be to have people in interracial realtionships queer and hetero tell a little bit a bout how they might deal with issues of race and privilege within their relationship.

    I feel, as with many topics, it’s hard to input from an outsider persepective and something this conversation not just here but in general needs is insider persepectives that aren’t from a colorblind ideology, but from people who really examine themselves and their relationships.

    Posted 17 Nov 2008 at 6:27 pm ¶