Where Have All the Manners Gone?
by Guest Contributor Aaminah Hernández, originally published on Writeous Sister Speaks
We’ve all seen it. A lot of us have experienced it personally. There is talk all the time about how the youth of today are rude and disrespectful, parents aren’t teaching their kids basic manners anymore, etc. That may or may not be true. But what isn’t discussed so often is the rudeness of older generations.
A white Muslim friend of mine once told me about her grandmother who still uses the “N” word and has made indirect disparaging comments about my friend’s Arab husband and about her wearing hijab. She brushed it off because who has time to stay angry at that kind of ignorance? She figured her grandmother is old, from a different generation where that kind of stuff was normal, she isn’t likely to change now. But my friend’s mother had a different viewpoint. She said that it was fine to be compassionate, understanding the woman’s age and how society was in “her day” but not to excuse her for not having learned anything and choosing not to change.
A lot of us have family members like my friend’s grandmother. And it’s not just those of us who are Muslims, but any of us from any minority know people who haven’t changed with the times. Many of our white allies have family or friends that make comments that, while not directed at them personally, make them shudder. I’ve read other bloggers relatively recently who have said “you can’t stop being family, but what do you say or do when someone you love says something that shocks or hurts you?” Some people have even discussed this in relation to Rev. Jeremiah Wright - we all know someone we respect who says stuff we don’t agree with sometimes but we don’t throw them under a bus for it! (For the record, I agree with the Rev anyway.)
Today in the grocery store (which is rarely a pleasant experience anyway) a considerably older gentleman (really, I’d guess that he could have easily been in his 80s) looked at me and very loudly said “what the heck is that? What do you even call that?” And laughed as he turned his cart (and back) to me and tried to walk away. He was still laughing and happened to have turned down the next aisle that I was going into, so as I turned into the aisle I saw him there, and he kept laughing and shaking his head saying “the things you see… the people they let come into our country… how ridiculous” as he turned his cart again like he was trying to get away from me.
Now, I know he was referring to the fact that I wear niqab. And I didn’t respond at all because I wouldn’t know what to say, and would rather say nothing than be a bad example of manners myself! His questions were clearly rhetorical, there was no reason to attempt to engage him in a conversation. Instead I acted as if he wasn’t there… I scrutinized two brands of a food I had no intention of buying, as if I couldn’t see or hear him at all but was just intent on my shopping, waiting for him to go away, which he did.
The thing is, as I finished my shopping (praying to Allah that I wouldn’t see that guy again), I couldn’t help but to wonder “What ever happened to manners?”
Sure, he’s an old man, set in his ways, unfamiliar with the changing make-up of our city, perhaps doesn’t get out much and probably doesn’t read or watch a wide variety of cultural media. I mean, most people I know rely on Fox News, as if it’s the only media available to them. People who have greater access to more variety. I realize that the sight of me probably was quite unexpected and bit shocking for him. I understand that.
What I don’t understand is that he comes from a generation that really taught “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all”. He’s old enough to have learned tact, to have figured out that we don’t have to speak everything that pops into our heads. That in polite society we sometimes curb our tongue. I’m pretty reasonably sure that his mother taught him these lessons, because they were common lessons in his generation. In fact, contrary to what it may seem, they’re still pretty common lessons that parents teach their kids.
Now, my son is pretty compassionate and says to me “he was really old mom, and sometimes they just aren’t right in the head”. And he’s right of course. That may very well be the case. But it’s certainly not always the case, and it doesn’t make it less disturbing.
[Latoya’s Note - I really enjoyed this piece because I think it cuts to the heart of many of the problems with interracial relations. Why is there such a lack of manners when it comes to people of color? Why do people think it is acceptable to reach for someone’s hair, or ridicule them in public, like the situation Aaminah describes? Are we really seen as so different (or perhaps, subhuman) that we do not warrant basic human courtesy?]
(Image from Anupam Chander’s blog.)
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of 
DivergentDana wrote:
“What I don’t understand is that he comes from a generation that really taught “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all”. He’s old enough to have learned tact, to have figured out that we don’t have to speak everything that pops into our heads.”
Yes, but oftentimes, older people feel that their advanced age somehow gives them permission to say whatever they want, propriety be damned, and people let them get away with it. My father’s a good example. He used to be just belligerent at home, but now he calls people “rednecks” in the doctor’s office, at the store, etc, which is extremely embarrasing for me, to say the least.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 7:16 am ¶
Liza wrote:
This is a great piece, you’re right. Of course, from the safety of my couch and laptop, I got to the part about the man making the horrible comments, picked my jaw up off the floor, and thought, “I would have said x,y,z!!” But the truth is, would I have? I can easily come up with the 100 things I would say from my living room, but I’m not sure I would have the mind to say something in the moment. I guess that’s much of why I learn so much from these moments - so that when the time comes, I can at least empower myself to have the choice to say something. I know others would also not respond to the man in the store. And, there are others who woul d have given him a piece of their mind (and more!). I still struggle with a) having the confidence to do so and b) having the tools to address it, if needed.
I believe that people say things to others because they are in positions of “power” (define that you you may). While the writer is correct, many from that generation were taught “keep your comments to yourself” they were also taught that people of color didn’t apply to category that deserves respect. Huge generalization of all from that time, I know, but there is a rich historical context in our own country that occurred during their developmental years.
Great example of the struggle between being powerful people of color who address and educate around race, and when that struggle comes directly into our daily activities that shouldn’t ever be about race (like grocery shopping).
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 7:23 am ¶
Torontonian wrote:
Maybe the old man assumed you didn’t understand English and couldn’t hear what he was saying. I’ve experienced this.
There are some people, not matter what their age, that will never change, and it’s not worth engaging them.
Also, even if he came from the generation that was taught “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all”, he probably doesn’t think of non-white people as people.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 7:27 am ¶
j wrote:
For many people, especially those of ‘older’ generations, manners are reserved for those who they respect. The problem with interracial relations is that there is often a fundamental lack of respect due to ignorance of other peoples and cultures. That man in the grocery store clearly did not consider the author as being as human and as worthy of respect and dignity as himself, which is why he was able to act to crudely towards her.
“Are we really seen as so different (or perhaps, subhuman) that we do not warrant basic human courtesy?”
Sadly, yes. Until folks can learn to personally identify with people from other cultures that ignorance will remain.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 7:40 am ¶
Margie wrote:
Racism + entitlement = the right to say whatever stupid thing pops into your head
The lack of courtesy that’s rampant in this country doesn’t stop there, though, it’s everywhere: on our roads, in our television shows, in politics - everywhere. If you’re an “other” in someone’s eyes, you are fair game for whatever venom they want to spew.
It makes me sad, and sick and angry all at once. And powerless, because I don’t see the light at the end of this tunnel, just the train.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 7:51 am ¶
Keren wrote:
Ialso never say anything to old people when they say things I am uncomfortable with. I always thought that was because it’s so ingrained in my head to ‘respect’ (i.e don’t argue with) old people.
The few times I have challenged an older person about their views I’ve always been told I was a ‘radical,’ which is quite fun really.
Thanks for the post!
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 8:05 am ¶
Cynthia wrote:
I’m not really taking old people’s sides or anything, but I think some older people feel that certain cultures are just not integrating “as well” as others and are taking their old country issues into this part of the world. I think it eventually fades. A lot of people, (including myself, to be perfectly honest! And I’m non-white and under 40.) don’t really understand why some cultures keep so much of the old traditions, even if they’ve been in the new country for two or more decades!
There are also those, especially with older people, who feel that certain cultures who keep “old country traditions” don’t fall along the lines of what’s considered “proper” in the west. However, I don’t think it’s “proper” for them to criticize out loud.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 8:25 am ¶
CG wrote:
@ DivergentDana:
I completely agree. As a matter of fact, I had an old colleague of mine (who was considerably older) say to me, on several occassions, that now that he’s old he can say whatever he wants because he just doesn’t care about people’s opinions and perceptions of HIM anymore. Now, he’s never made racist and ignorant comments, but he now says things that 20-30 years ago he would have bit his tongue in fear of how his words would be interpreted. So I’m sure there are MANY people of age who share the same sentiments and somehow feel “they’ve done their time” and are free to speak their mind, however inappropriate it may be.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 8:27 am ¶
Persia wrote:
This may just be my impression, but it’s usually the men who end up doing this stuff. Older women are more likely to follow the ‘if you don’t have anything nice to say…’ rule. So I suspect there are gender roles tying into this as well.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 8:30 am ¶
ceecee wrote:
Aaminah, I’m really sorry you experienced this. No one irrespective of their age should go about saying stuff like that. And if they feel like they have a right to do so, then they shouldn’t be complaining when Fox news bigots and the Limbaughs of this world say disrespectful stuff.
I for one, am quick to point out to my older relatives when they say stuff like that. Because I remind them that they raised me to be polite, so I’m shocked when they say some things even if it’s just between us. And thank God my family is repentant.
We need to start holding people accountable and stop letting things slide. Some Americans can be so intolerant it’s very disturbing.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 8:45 am ¶
SerenityNow wrote:
Fortunately for me, I’ve never had to endure personal attacks like the author describes.
But I’ve encountered these types of rude people who think, that because we’re both white, that I will (nudge, wink) agree with whatever racist or heterosexist observation they make. These encounters leave me riled up for weeks, partially because these people are a-holes, and partially because I feel complicit when I dumfoundedly dont know what to say…
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 8:47 am ¶
Lisa wrote:
As someone who tended to date outside of my “race” or whatever before getting married, I often found myself at the mercy of, in particular, boyfriends’ grandfathers who felt no need to “censor” themselves in my presence. How awkward is it to be sitting at the dinner table listening to someone’s beloved grandpa talking about how “in my day, we called ‘em niggers!”, feeling like you can’t say anything because you’re a guest, waiting for your boyfriend to maybe interrupt and say something, but nothing ever happens until the old man leaves the room and THEN the apologies (and excuses) come from other family members–he’s just old, he doesn’t know any better… I don’t see how it can be a case of honestly not knowing better, though.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 9:19 am ¶
Leigh wrote:
I’m with you, Lisa, except I’m the one who has to apologize to my mixed boyfriend when my white grandfather drops the n-word (it’s been getting more and more frequent) or bitches about “all the Mexicans.”
I’ve tried to talk to my grandmother about it, and she’s much more understanding than he is, but I get the feeling that he’s just not trying at all. We correct him even when my boyfriend’s not around–because it offends ME, and deeply–but then he scoffs and gets angry and replaces it with, “Well, the coloreds then!” As if that were really any better.
He’s old and sick, but still I feel like that really shouldn’t matter.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 9:34 am ¶
Aaminah wrote:
Hi everyone! Thanks for your gracious comments. I wasn’t planning to comment at all on this, but shared something privately with Latoya about this weekend’s shopping trip and we agreed it is relevent to the conversation and might add to the discussion, so I’m going to share it here FYI, the original post on my blog has some interesting comments too, if anyone is interested just to see what others think):
I’m glad that people can apply it as not just being a Muslim thing, but recognize where they’ve had similar experiences. But I hope that people can see too how it is, in our current climate, a bit different for Muslims, esp those of us who really stand out. It can actually be rather frightening. I am a pretty touch chick, and should be used to it, but somehow it still usually catches me kinda unawares. Like, I’m steeling up for potential encounters, and yet I am still surprised by the venom of them when they happen. And all the experience in the world hasn’t made me so sure of myself and how to deal with them everytime yet.
I had the most horrid experience this weekend with a man screaming at me in the parking lot of the grocery store “I can see your eyes! I can see your eyes” (I wore a half-niqab that covers from the nose down but leaves the eyes uncovered). Then “This is America you terrorist b****! Why are you even in my country? Go back where you came from!” etc. My mom got so angry she ended up telling him to f*** off! Which says alot, because I’ve never ever in my life heard my mother use the “f” word!
I was like “MOM! Okay, okay, come on - ignore him. There’s no point in engaging with someone like that”. I’ve written about how oftentimes if you try to say anything to someone like that you end up being branded the aggressor and things escalate badly. So I don’t do it. But after the fact, I really do wish that I had handed my mom my bags and walked up to that man (he was my age, I could have taken him if necessary, LOL, whereas I wouldn’t grapple with an old man) and say “would you like to say that direct to my face? Did you think I couldn’t understand you? Did you think I can’t speak back? Did you forget that your people were once immigrants? And thank you very much, but mine weren’t, so maybe you should be the one who ‘goes back where you came from’.” The really sad thing is that one of the (female) cart runners came out behind us and heard the whole thing, and as we were putting our groceries in the car and it was “over”, she was standing there chatting and laughing with the guy. Now, maybe they were talking about something else entirely, maybe they were even acquaintences. But as an employee of the store seeing a customer being harrassed, I think it’s her job to say “dude, back off, come on, don’t make an ass of yourself or cause problems here”.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 9:43 am ¶
Aaminah wrote:
Cynthia, I find your ideas a bit problemmatic. This country (U.S.) is built on immigration, so why should anyone feel they have to give up their own traditions? I’ve never liked the “melting pot” theory for this reason. Requiring everyone to melt into one norm is pretty dull. I think of our nation as pico de gallo - lots of different flavors that are unique and stand out but still blend together to make something fabulous.
On top of that, I am a Muslim convert (and indigenous to this land). So it’s not even an issue of me being an immigrant that is “refusing to assimilate” or some other nonsense. I am practicing “traditional” practices by choice, and am more “American” than most so-called Americans. What is there for me to assimilate into? Why should anyone tell me how to be “more American”?
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 9:47 am ¶
Asha wrote:
@ ceecee
It’s not just Americans. My Indian grandmother is not quite as racist as my white grandmother, but she’s not exactly tolerant either, especially when it came to my parents’ marriage, and to my muslim ex-boyfriend.
That being said, I definitely deal with more ridiculous comments from my white grandmother, who in the past few years (she’s 86) has decided she can say whatever she wants. And this is a well-traveled woman who lived overseas for a number of years. I try to call her on it, but nothing ever changes. I’m not sure how she gets past my dad’s dark brown skin, but she seems to just think of him as a tanned white person.
People don’t think about the consequences of their words when they think they can say whatever they want. I try not to spend a lot of time with my white grandmother because after a while it gets to be too much.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 10:01 am ¶
Cynthia wrote:
Aaminah,
So would you find it odd that Chinese American parents (or even immigrant parents) name their children Katherine or Robert, rather than something Chinese? That Chinese brides wear white, whether the groom is Chinese or non-Chinese? Sure, some of these things had already changed in the “old country” but often, they are further altered when they come here. For example, when my mom and dad married, they had a maid of honor and best man, but no bridesmaids and groomsmen. Apparently that’s how things worked in 1970s Hong Kong. Fast forward 30-something years and my friends are getting married. Whether they are marrying Chinese or not, there’s usually at least 3 bridesmaids (including the maid of honor) and 3 groomsmen (including the best man).
Adapting at least some aspects is very important as it makes culture clashes, especially within the school systems a bit easier. I really have a major problem with the “_______ kids don’t do this or that” (be it dating, prom, taking certain classes or joining certain clubs) comment that immigrant parents often make. It only emphasizes their difference and brings on ignorance from other people.
In any case, things change in the old country too, and often, the traditions that immigrants pass on to their children are actually out-of-date in the old country.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 10:23 am ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“The really sad thing is that one of the (female) cart runners came out behind us and heard the whole thing, and as we were putting our groceries in the car and it was “over”, she was standing there chatting and laughing with the guy.”
See, this is what screws me up. There should be social penalties for engaging in that kind of behavior. Unless he has Tourettes or something, there’s no good reason for normal people to continue to make an acquaintance of someone like that. You can’t pick your family, but everyone else is fair game, imo. The kind of climate that coddles dudes like that and penalizes people who would speak out against him is what annoys me the most.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 10:33 am ¶
RoslynHolcomb wrote:
Aaminah, I definitely get where you’re coming from. Frankly, I hate xenophobia with a passion, not to mention the fact that many Muslims were born here and are just as American as anyone else.
I find it ironic that people who are always complaining about religious intolerance and wanting to put ‘religion’ in our schools are also the ones who are least tolerant of others. Can you imagine the reaction if someone yelled that kind of crap at someone for wearing a cross?
I go out of my way to smile or show overt friendliness when I see women wearing the niqab, especially in light of 9/11. I guess I want them to know that not everyone’s an idiot. Of course, this is probably problematic too. I’m sure they’d prefer not to be singled out for hostility OR friendliness based on their religion, but I don’t know what else to do.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 11:17 am ¶
ceecee wrote:
Asha,
You have to admit though, how many distinct immigrants (i.e. you can tell by their features) will shout people down in the parking lot saying “go home terrorists”?
Cynthia,
I think most immigrant parents just want their kids to hold on to their traditions as much as possible. because when they go back home, they fear being completely out of touch. It sucks being ridiculed as a kid when you visit home because you don’t know what’s going on around you.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 11:19 am ¶
Cynthia wrote:
ceecee,
There’s a difference between knowing about certain traditions and forcing them onto children born in the the new country.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 11:29 am ¶
Jamerican Muslimah wrote:
@Amina
I hate that people automatically assume if you’re wearing the hijab (or niqab) that you’re from another country. I believe the media has played a significant role in promoting the idea. When it comes time to interview Muslims they go to two sources: Muslims living in the Middle East or immigrant Muslims in living in the United States. It seems like there is a deliberate effort to paint Islam as a “foreign religion.” It doesn’t matter that the majority of Muslims do not live in the Middle East. Or that African-American Muslims make up 35-45 percent of the American Muslim community. Or that an increasing number Latinos, Caucasions amd other groups are converting to Islam (in America).
In the current anti-Muslim climate it’s not only old people who get pass when acting out their racist, xenophobic beliefs but non-Muslims in general. Have you seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqbQWxHIn4U
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 12:04 pm ¶
marge twain wrote:
@Divergent Dana: The social penalty seems to disappear for elderly people, except maybe among their own peer group. Like you said earlier, it’s not uncommon for elderly folks to realize that they can bloviate publicly about anything or anyone. This includes airing their bigoted views. They can’t get called out by polite youngsters but they also aren’t taken seriously.
Once while visiting NYC there was a serious subway accident during rush hour. Someone was killed or injured, I didn’t find out. Anyway, lots of people were packed onto the next above-ground bus. I was in the front, near two seated old black ladies that people had given up their seats for. Over the next hour or so riding across town these women had unkind things to say about just about everyone on the bus, disrespectful kids these days, the bus driver, the economy, various celebrities and politicians, punctuated frequently with the loud observation that there were too many people at the front of the bus and they could hardly stretch their legs. Unable to move, the rest of us just gave each other knowing looks.
I’ve sometimes wondered if it’s freeing to be that old man in suspenders smugly rebuking the movie screen or alienating to be regarded as the old coot not worth answering since he has one foot in the grave. I also wonder if it’ll ever be me, shouting unsolicited comments from the rocking chair on my front porch a la the old curmudgeon in To Kill A Mockingbird. Maybe I’ll take that freedom and use it to fight racism wherever I see it.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 12:13 pm ¶
McJumpguez wrote:
I’ve come across this with my dad so many times. I’ve tried to correct him in so many ways. He’s never ill willed toward any one race, it’s the “terms” he uses. He comes from Mexico, so there its not uncommon for his generation to call a black person “negro” (black), which could easily sound like negro, or an asian person “chino” or “arroz” (chinese, regardless of ancestory, and rice, yeah, you heard it). I’ve tried getting angry at him, coddling him, being sympathetic with him and explaining to him why these terms are in appropriate . . . I’ve tried and tried, and he’s just so stubborn because he doesn’t mean to offend, that is not his intention, but as we all know, that’s not the point. My mom is more sensitive and understanding when I explain to her that certain terms are no longer used. She loves to learn and would be appalled if any of her direct translations or old school terms were offensive.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 12:20 pm ¶
marge twain wrote:
@ceecee: It sucks being american and having had immigrant parents who were so bent on upholding traditions that they didn’t want me to have non-indian friends or assimilate any aspect of immoral american culture(not that they would know)
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 12:20 pm ¶
Fatemeh wrote:
Salaam, Aaminah! Great post!
Did you catch the ABC “What Would You Do?” experiment that deals with an issue like this? Actors portrayed a shopkeeper making racist and ISlamophobic comments to another actor who played a Muslim woman wearing a headscarf. The reactions are interesting.
http://abcnews.go.com/primetime/whatwouldyoudo/
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 12:29 pm ¶
H.L. wrote:
I’ve been ridiculed for what I’ve worn. Young guys, black AND white, hanging out together, feeding off each other’s laughter and finding security in the presence of peer idiocy.
Does it matter what color my skin is, or the nature of my clothes? Yes, I s’pose it could/should, considering the nature of this blog. In my circumstances, I feel the problem lies in raging male testosterone running amok (which gets even worse at sports events and/or the arrival of the spring season), so I don’t have a lot of race or ethnic perspective to offer there.
And I have also been in the presence of acquaintences of my own who have made disparaging remarks about those who are poor(er), or overweight, or socially awkward. Not whispered comments, either, but loud enough to be overheard and hurtful.
I’m not dismissing the underlying premise of this article, because I feel there is legitimacy in that perspective in American society. But I also tend to attribute this sort of behavior to a greater truth about humanity: People Are Simply Mean Jerks, looking for any excuse to elevate their own weak self-esteems at the expense of others.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 1:00 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:
Cynthia, I never said that I find it odd when people choose to take on things that are not from their own culture. I said that there is nothing wrong with retaining one’s own culture. These are two very different things. And for the record, alot of things that are considered “backwards” or “old-fashioned” are tied to certain morals and values that do not diminish with time. You are not going to get me to agree with you that it is so important for our youth to be able to attend dances, date and do other things that I believe are morally unhealthy for them. I also think that parents have every right to raise their children to retain traditions and it is up to the children when they become adults to determine which parts they retain or modify or throw out. But in any case, you have, as usual, gotten completely off topic in service of your own agenda.
Marge, Divergent Dana was not referring to the old man scenario but to the young guy in the parking lot that I wrote about in a comment, and the store employee’s response (or lack thereof). Your points are well taken, of course, just not what DD was specifically talking about.
Roslyn, you know, I don’t want to be “singled out” for positive attention, but I don’t really see it as that when someone takes a moment to be nice to me. I’m glad to know there are people in the world like you who recognize that sometimes effort is required. As long as you aren’t all gushy, why feel bad? A simple smile and hello or whatever makes a bigger difference than people realize.
Fatemeh, I did see that particular one and it wasn’t as shocking to me as it was to alot of people. I live that everyday…
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 1:04 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:
H.L. - you bring up some valid points; some people are just mean. But are you saying that it has nothing to do with racism?
In my case, I know it is a mixture of racism, sexism, and issues with Islam.
Fact: men think that as a woman they have the right to try to intimidate me. I’ve never had anyone behave so openly rude to me when my husband or brother were with me. And I have been harrassed by “where is your husband? I thought you can’t go anywhere without him? Why don’t you have a wedding ring?” etc.
Fact: there are certain groups that it is considered “okay” to talk about openly right now. No one bats an eye when I am called a terrorist, but there are other things that people would say something, even if small or ineffectual, about being bluntly said in all public places.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 1:18 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
@Aaminah–friend, I am so very sorry you had to experience–even had to deal with– this ish. IMO, if someone came so out-the-ass that s/he made my not-cussing mom cuss, all bets are off.:-)
Seriously, though, I do understand your hesitation, Aaminah, in not saying anything in order not to escalate a situation, especially with the vitriolic anti-Muslim hatred nowadays. (And you didn’t know how that man in the parking lot was going to jump off at you and your moms if you confronted him. You did what you had to do at the moment.)
Your reflection on how you would have responded serves as a reminder to me why I feel compelled to speak up; I’m defending my right to exist in this world peacefully and I’m breaking open a space through the prevalent idea that people of color and/or marginalized people deserve no respect (i.e. being talked to any ol’ kind of way) Strangely enough, my bald-headed Black female self speaking up–will help not only another Black woman but also another person of color and/or marginalized person. When you speak, Aaminah–half-niqab and all–you help your mom and me and Carmen and Latoya, and so on. I can’t help but think, in light of what we commemorated this past weekend, what would have happened if Dr. King didn’t speak or waited for someone else to speak on behalf of Black folks and poor folks of every race and against the Vietnam War…
@DivergentDana–I’m so with you. I wonder if, by her laughing and talking with Aaminah’s verbal attacker, the female wasn’t just coddling him but socially rewarding him for “standing up” and “putting those people in their place.” (My conjecture; who really knows why the female attendant failed to do her job and neutralize the situation?) Back to your question (and w/out totally derailing the thread): what do you think the social penalties should be? (No tar and feathering or banishment, DD.:-D) And what about hate crimes legislation? Where do you think they leave off and social sanctioning should begin? Didn’t the legislation arise because people found hate crimes, including hate speech–as much as that’s contested as being covered by the 1st Amendment– intolerable? I’m sincerely asking…
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 1:38 pm ¶
Cynthia wrote:
Aaminah,
While I agree that parents have a right to raise their children in accordance to the old country’s tradition, they have NO RIGHT to tell these kids that mainstream ideals are IMMORAL and say nothing when their kids repeat what the parents say while at school. This is where problems happen with the mainstream which leads to ignorance (leading to situations in the original post). I also don’t think kids should be made to feel so different and “abnormal” from the other kids.
As for certain traditions that are tied with morals, historically, marriages in most cultures were arranged because marriages were really business transactions. Today, many of the cultures no longer have arranged marriages. My maternal great-grandmother married in the 1890s (I believe…she had my grandmother 20-something years after getting married) as a teenager. Her marriage was arranged and she didn’t even see her husband until the day she wed. This was the way things were back then. My grandmother? She dated several men before settling with my gong-gong. Poh Poh was born in the early 1920s. I’m pretty sure Poh Poh wore white when she got married. I bet it would have upset her mom very much. After all, it’s like wearing BLACK in a western wedding, right?
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 1:39 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:
Cruel Secretary - I totally feel you. Believe me, I speak out when I can and it’s appropriate and/or safe. I totally agree that it is necessary to be brave and speak up for everyone’s sake. But at the same time, there are certain realities. One of which is that there is no point in trying to reason with someone like that. Another is that it is incumbent upon me as a Muslim to behave with better manners and restraint than what others have. And yet another is that I happen to live in a city where self-defense is not a legal defense, so if I am forced to defend myself against a physical attack I am the one who is arrested. Add to that the general sentiment against Muslims and the stereotypes that we are prone to violence, and you can see where I am caught in a no-win situation if things become confrontational.
Cynthia - I’m not going to go ’round with you. I have every right to raise my child to believe that what goes on in mainstream society is immoral, but that really is completely off topic here. And thank you very much, my child does not feel “abnormal” nor do most Muslim children I know feel that way. I didn’t feel abnormal being raised differently from most of my friends either. I felt loved and protected - and my parents weren’t even Muslim.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 2:10 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“what do you think the social penalties should be?” Widespread censure & shunning, perhaps. I think only social penalties should be there for hate speech, and hate crimes should be dealt with both socially and legally. I think the legislation arose because society deemed hate crimes intolerable. Hate speech is still IMO, often given a free pass. I would expound upon this further, but I have a class to go to.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 2:27 pm ¶
laura wrote:
It’s impossible to make a person ‘normal’ enough that they aren’t different in some way. Many schools, for example, attempt to curb problems with cliques and such related to social inequities by enforcing uniforms, and yet kids are still able to make social ques that indicate who are the haves and the have-nots. Some of us who should have fit in with social norms as children simply didn’t feel like they did. Whether or not a child feels ‘different’ or -more-importantly- feels -badly- about being ‘different’ is dependant on the child themself.
Furthermore, its nearly impossible to define mainstream ideals for the whole of America, and even if you could it wouldn’t mean anything for an individual person. It’s determined on the community level. To take an entirely unrelated example, if a community is gay-positive, and a child were raised to be homophobic, that child may feel different, even if many would argue that homophobia is the mainstream value for ‘America’.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 2:52 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:
Good points, Laura.
I certainly recognized that I was “different” as a kid, but personally I reveled in it! Perhaps that is even part of what makes it easy for me “deal” with being Muslim and wearing the face veil now. I never viewed “different” as bad.
My son has problems with being different on some matters, like being the only kid in his school whose father is in prison, or who doesn’t live in the same house as his mother. But being indigenous, being Muslim, that sort of thing, he’s very proud of. Certainly he rebels against some of my strictures, like wanting to go to mixed-gender camps, but others he accepts and is fine with despite it being pointed out to him that it is “weird”, like not eating pork.
Each child handles these things differently, and personality has a lot to do with it too. Parents can do things that make it harder or easier to cope with our differences, but in the end it is up to us to figure them out for ourselves. And then to keep or reject what we will once we are old enough to make those decisions.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 3:41 pm ¶
The Cruel Secretary wrote:
@Aaminah–Dig, friend. I see your conundrum. Hmm…I guess I’m not ready to see this situation as hopeless yet. Here’s a possibly polite response future solo hateboys (and hategirls) in a parking lot when you’re ready to respond in such a situation. Shout back, ” I really don’t appreciate your needing to spew your anti-Muslim hatred at my mom and me.” Say “thank you” the way casting directors say it when dismissing someone from the stage. Smile and wave…and make sure you and/or your mom have the police on speed dial, if you have cell phones, just in case hateboy becomes physically aggressive, like walking towards you. Your response may 1) stun the fool into silence, 2) have him so apoplectic he’s sputtering a response (to which you don’t need to respond–you’ve made your point), or 3) have him muttering under his breath. What I’ve noticed that a single person shouting at you across a parking lot tends to not want to engage in a physical or even a direct confrontation; that’s why they’re screaming at you from three rows or three sections away.
@DD–good luck in class today…looking forward to hearing your response when you get back. I know it’s gonna be good.:-)
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 3:41 pm ¶
marge twain wrote:
@Aaminah, I began my comment with a paragraph responding to DivergentDana’s social penalty question. I am aware of what she was referring to since I read her comment and yours. No need to clarify for me.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 4:00 pm ¶
turtlebella wrote:
This is an interesting post and comments thread. Thanks, Aaminah. I agree that there is an element of xenophobia, sexism, & racism here. All of which have been around for a long time in American history.
But I think the Muslim-hating type of xenophobia happening is even a little different from past & current xenophobia of immigrant groups (Polish, Irish, Mexican etc). For one thing, as people have pointed out, there are plenty of Muslims that aren’t immigrants at all. But also and mainly- I’m wondering if this is way out of line or not- but there may be the possibility that assimilation is not as possible or as complete for some groups of immigrant Muslims. Especially women who can be easily categorized as Muslim because they wear hijab. Is it possible that our (as a country) xenophobia has not gone away but that as immigrant groups assimilated more and more there was no *reason* to hate them any more- they simply were not targets anymore because there was little to ‘brand’ (sorry to use a somewhat violent term here but it seems to fit the situation) them as Polish, etc. Racism comes in to play as well here since brown/black immigrants don’t/cannot assimilate in terms of color (why is it that I often think of assimilation = more white? Why is American = White? Side issue…). But I think especially right now in the US being Muslim is SO ‘other’ - some folks clearly regard any Muslim as the enemy (hence the accusation of terrorist). Many German immigrants or even those with German last names felt targeted by excessive xenophobia around the time of WWII. Not to mention Japanese-Americans who suffered a great deal more (arguably). But this to some extent faded, especially for white German-Americans. Will this xenophobia towards Muslims too fade, eventually? I’m not sure.
On a lighter note, and maybe it’s appropriate to share this story here– this weekend I drove by a Wendy’s. Through the window I caught a glimpse of a woman wearing what I thought was a headscarf. On second thought, as I processed the image, I realized that it was a nun. And I automatically thought, “How *weird* - you never see that!” I live in a place with a large population of Somali immigrants so I see a fair number of hijab-wearing women on a day to day basis. It’s interesting that hijab is a more “normal” (in terms of common, statistically speaking) sight than a nun’s habit for me- and I went to Catholic school as a kid!
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 4:06 pm ¶
thesciencegirl wrote:
I will come back and read the other comments in a bit, but I’m excited to comment because I was just pondering this issue earlier. I’m a med student, and some of our professors are old white dudes who say ridiculously insensitive old-school things that are completely contrary to the messages the school sends us in our perfunctory diversity classes. One older doc used to stop by my all-female anatomy dissection group and say things like “they didn’t have lady docs in my day!” He was met with eyerolls and disbelieving looks, but everyone knows he says things like this and just ignores it.
And right now, I’m in a class where we have practicing doctors lead us in small groups of 7 or 8 students. The guy I’m assigned to is just ridiculous. Last week, we were discussing whether the findings of an academic study could be applied to our patient population, and someone mentioned that the study was done in Western Europe and wouldn’t account for the ethnic diversity in the U.S., and he said “well, the U.S. is basically European.” I looked around at the table of white, Indian, African, Asian, and mixed faces and thought, oh, it is?!?!?!
We called him on it, and he sort of shrugged. Well, this morning, we were discussing a study on breast cancer. And we were supposed to state whether it was valid. I pointed out that the study didn’t include pertinent population demographics, one of which was race. When another student backed me up, he said to us “Well, this is a very diverse group, and I can see that everyone is sticking up for each of their own minority groups.” I sat there dumbfounded and fuming, while one of my classmates tried to set him straight. It’s not okay for him to devalue and discount my valid critique as “sticking up for my minority group.” Everyone in the group seems annoyed, but when I talked to some of them about it, I got that same old “well, he’s an old doc… we should just shrug it off” kind of vibe. And I don’t think that’s good enough. I’ve definitely been more lenient with the ignorance of older people in the past, but in this case, this man is an educator; doesn’t he have the responsibility to catch up with the times?!
As for racist family members, my Nana (maternal grandmother) stopped speaking to my (Italian-American) mom when she married my (black) dad, but the grandkids turned her around, and she never said anything prejudiced around me as a kid. In fact, she grew to love my dad, and they had a little bit where he’d call her and say “are you still old?” and she’d response, “yeah, are you still black?”
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 5:21 pm ¶
Me wrote:
Being a Muslim is not being a part of a ‘race’. Maybe since this blog is called ‘racialious’ I expect blogs dealing with race, not necessarly religion.
I am Muslim. I am an American. I don’t want Muslims suddenly thinking that they Muslim is a race… much like some Jews believe that “jewish” is a race. This is very offensive to me, especially since being Muslim is for all manking and I can just see somene already saying “You half Muslim?” or “Your not Muslim, your parents weren’t Muslim”.
::sighs::
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 6:23 pm ¶
Torontonian wrote:
@Cynthia:
It seems like you have bought into the implicit white supremacist view that white, Anglo-Saxon culture is more ‘advanced’ than non-white cultures. According to this view (which assumes linear cultural evolution), the ‘primitive’ cultures are African or indigenous American, and given enough time, they will ‘evolve’, ‘advance’, and ‘catch up’ with Western culture.
According to your thinking, something like wearing a white wedding dress is more advanced than wearing a red wedding dress, as if the mere association with Western culture makes the white (versus red) type more ‘civilized’.
In any case, historically, the integration of ethnic minorities into the majority was made possible only by the majority’s acceptance of diversity as ‘us’. Italians, Irish, and Ashkenazi Jews became white when they were accepted as white. Foods like pizza are now considered ‘American’, Catholicism is accepted as mainstream Christian, and now the United States considers its heritage ‘Judeo-Christian’.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 7:04 pm ¶
DivergentDana wrote:
“The social penalty seems to disappear for elderly people, except maybe among their own peer group. Like you said earlier, it’s not uncommon for elderly folks to realize that they can bloviate publicly about anything or anyone. This includes airing their bigoted views. They can’t get called out by polite youngsters but they also aren’t taken seriously.”
This is true, but even for younger people, it’s light to non-existant, especially in the midst — probably as a result of — the “anti-PC movement”. If you’re not in the public eye or on the job, you can pretty much say anything you want w/o anyone calling you on it, unless you’re in an exceptionally liberal and/or diverse circle. That, and when younger people are involved, there’s sometimes a fear there that they’re only a hair’s breadth away from physically attacking someone, and if you confront them, it could be you and/or the person you’re defending. I was in a situation like this where some young people were getting loud and belligerent on a sparsely-populated train at night. I thought it was funny as h***, until they started using anti-white slurs… because of the extenuating circumstances, all I could do was give them my best “WTF face.”
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 7:20 pm ¶
Amory wrote:
I feel very strongly that that old man knew what he was doing. I agree w Liza that he spoke from his perceived position of power.
I want to know about the reactions of the other shoppers in the store. Did they react as though this man’s behavior was acceptable? He doesn’t sound just rude. He sounds aggressive and hateful. Who was his audience?
He was harassing you. Were there witnesses?
Personally I feel that older people, of all people, have lived enough and seen enough, been exposed to enough that if they retain bigotry it is a conscious choice on their part and *completely* inexcusable. Of all people, older people should know better.
And I don’t care that “the world they grew up in” was different. They’ve been living in THIS world as long as I have.
I believe that we as a society should NEVER, out of some kind of misguided “respect” for the elderly, justify or excuse that kind of violence.
Don’t baby the bigot, as my friend Patsy says. They’ve lived long enough. They can handle being called out.
In response to Latoya’s addendum, I think that people behaving in these ways are clinging to privilege/ power and control because they feel their personal power (unearned and/ or earned) threatened.
Thanks for reposting this article.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 8:10 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:
“Me” - No one said Muslim is a race. No one said that. In fact, I have personally reiterated on this blog on more than one occassion that Muslim is not a race. Racists however are not so intelligent to make that distinction. As a Muslim (and a person of color) I (and many others) face discrimination that takes the same form as racism. Xenophobia is xenophobia - it is not linked to skin color per se but to differences in culture and other matters. Religion falls under this. As a Muslim, it doesn’t matter what color your skin is, racists react to you in a racialized manner. I doubt that you have been blessed to never experience such treatment, since it is very common.
You are also clearly unknowledgeable in some of the things you are saying. The Jews ARE an ethnic group, just Arabs are an ethnic group etc. Religion is not based on ethnicity. In the case of the Jews, these are two different things; they do in fact have an ethnicity and a religion. This is upheld in the Torah, the Gospels and the Qur’an. Perhaps you should consult a scholar on such matters before speaking just because you think it sounds good.
No, there is no such thing as a “half-Muslim” and I’ve never heard anyone else insinuate such a thing. You are not Muslim because your parents are, nor are you not Muslim because your parents on not. Islam is something that must be personally and actively chosen by an individual, regardless of their culture or family history. Yes Islam is for all mankind.
As to what is covered by this site, you can take that up with the moderators, but there are many matters that are racialized, including religion, especially in relation to Muslims, and there are many factors that contribute to racism including sexism, classism, and others. To my understanding, this site attempts to address many of these matters in a recognition of how they intersect. You can choose not to read my posts if you find them so off-topic and “offensive”.
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 8:29 pm ¶
Fransky wrote:
@ comment 17. “Adapting at least some aspects is very important as it makes culture clashes, especially within the school systems a bit easier. ”
What would make things easier and with less culture clashes is if folks minded their own business. If someone worships, looks or talks like something I’m not quite used to… that’s my problem, not theirs. People who run around needing everyone to assimilate to their norms, I find, often have trouble looking within themselves & working on their own stuff to make their own & the rest of the world a better place. Just my thoughts. Thanks! ~F
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 8:30 pm ¶
turtlebella wrote:
@Torotonian (yr comment of #41)– Yes, this is what I was thinking in my parenthetical aside of assimilation = more white. I found myself falling into this trap while writing my comment. Why is it that “we” expect immigrant groups to slowly (or quickly; the quicker the better in fact) to shed all their ‘traditional’ ‘ethnic’ aspects in order to fit in? As you say, some things, like pizza & other Italian cuisine, salsa (now more popular than ketchup!), etc get folded in but language - aside from stray words here & there - gets tossed aside as well as anything that is too too different from ‘mainstream’ white Americans. Or it remains un-American. And given the intensity of hate that can be directed toward immigrant groups is it any wonder that children of immigrants “decide” or “choose” to shed those aspects that mark them, in the eyes of some, as different/foreign/not American?
Posted 07 Apr 2008 at 8:58 pm ¶
sfsinger wrote:
This has been an interesting post. I totally sympathize with being made to feel ‘other’ and even wanting to slug some people for their ignorance. As a Black person I feel that some other people’s experiences may ebb and flow depending on the climate of the country you are in but that unless the person views you as the other you won’t experience that ugliness. I can’t blend in or change my color and unless someone engaged in actions that singled them out or wore specific things it would be much less likely to occur. I’m not trying to diminish the experience but provide some perspective. Yes there is a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment…now and later it will be something else but in the meantime there are still all the darkies available to blame and berate. I also think there is a difference between religion, values and morality. Religious beliefs are taught and may change as that individual develops - some change their religions afterall. Values are our consciousness which we can strengthen or disengage from. Morality is the compass which we lead our lives. They are all intertwined. As someone who grew up religious and conservative [a lot of of was just sexism and social customs] I at times attended church when my parents did not. My background is Christian and the study of the Bible and other sacred texts is an ongoing endeavor. I’ve had to rethink so much of what I thought religion and spirituality means. The situation with not attending dances brings to mind some discussion I had about not leading men into lust because they more easily swayed and being pure. I thought I was being obedient and godly but that narrow view always bothered me. One, I shouldn’t have to be responsible for someone else’s choices - though I certainly agree with supporting each other in spiritual growth. Two, I think God/Allah/Goddess/Buddha is waaay more understanding and loving than the way it is portrayed. I think it is easy to miss the point of living a moral/holy/enlightened life when we focus on a list of do’s and don’ts instead of our intentions and choices. I know my parents wanted to instill a moral code but there were times I felt more compelled to please them than find out what I thought and felt about something. As an adult I found that to be a bit of a disservice and I had to reevaluate my relationship with them and with my spiritual practice. I’m still negotiating my spirituality. Anyway I hope that we can all remember or learn to love each other and ourselves.
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 3:28 am ¶
JDsg wrote:
@ Cynthia (#17)
Because this is my first comment at this site and you all don’t know me and my background, I’m an American Muslim expat who lives in Singapore, where the population is about 77% Chinese. (I found this site through Aaminah’s blog; she’s known me for a while.)
When Cynthia asked these two questions, my answers were obviously, “No, I don’t find either of these odd.” Here in S’pore, I’d say about 95% of Singaporean Chinese and a large, significant number of Chinese people from mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau use Western first names. Nor is this limited to the youngest generation (college age and younger). Even the owner of my company, a Singaporean Chinese man, has a Western first name; this sort of thing is extremely commonplace here in Asia. As for Chinese brides wearing white wedding gowns, yeah, that’s extremely common as well; here’s a link to a random local (Singaporean) wedding photographer, who also happens to use a Western first name (”Nick”). In Singapore, it’s the Indian and Malay brides who have remained more traditional by wearing the wedding clothes from their own cultures, than by adopting the Western white gown/black tux.
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 7:29 am ¶
KathieB wrote:
The older man in the supermarket might do a bit of thinkinig about Abraham Lincoln, who said “I am rather inclined to silence, and whether that be wise or not, it is at least more unusual nowadays to find a man who can hold his tongue than to find one who cannot.”
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 12:09 pm ¶
bdsista wrote:
Cynthia,
As much as you deplore how some parents raise their children, methinks, there is some biographical interest in your commentary. Parents are free to raise their children to have whatever values they want. If it is a rejection of “Western culture or moral values”, then they are not alone. There are plenty of people of all religions including Christianity who eschew the “mainstream” . Normalcy relates to how people perceive what is around them and has much to do with your sense of self. Being Black I always knew there was an inside culture and an outside culture, but it never affected how I felt about myself. As a parent, I will raise my children the way I see fit, not based upon what is popular in the culture around me. If I did, I would dress my daughter like a video ho, let her have unlimited cell phone and internet access and not set curfews and that’s not happenin. I still believe in spankings (wuppins in my day) and there are tons of people who think Black people are barbaric to spank their kids. Well it kept me and my friends and most people my age in line and I didn’t have therapy to deal with it. At times, I knew I deserved it and time out would have been a big joke.
Bottom line is, children will grow up to decide what they want out of life. If they grow up and have conflicts with their parents, then that is a part of life, but I don’t blame parents for wanting to perpetuate their culture and values.
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 12:10 pm ¶
Me wrote:
Aaminah,
The only thing that I had said was that in light of this websites name, “racialicious”, I don’t believe that an article about a Muslim being laughed at is really appropriate, since Muslim is not a race.
Now of course I’m not trying to say that you all should stay on topic, BUT there are Muslims who, in light of discrimination towards Muslims, are trying to pass “Muslim” as being a race by having Muslims get the same sort of benefits, special rights and protections, that other “racial” groups may have.
Now him assuming that you were an immigrant is one thing of course.
But to me you being a Muslim spoke louder than him assuming you were from somewhere else (the racial element, i guess).
You can write, but it’s up to the reader to take it how they want.
I’m just really sad that somone has to resort to suggesting that people stop reading their articles, just because of one disagreement. That is pathetic.
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 1:20 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
Me -
Well, it’s a good thing the site editor decides what is appropriate, isn’t it?
As I explained in my note above, Aaminah’s piece about manners is about more than just one rude incident in a supermarket. It is about not extending common courtesy to people of color in general.
On this blog, we understand a lot of issues are intertwined. So while we do focus on race, we spend a lot of time understanding how other things intersect with race: gender, sexuality, class, and religion are all represented here.
Muslim issues are not the same as racial issues, but the patterns of oppression are the same. And as we grow, we receive more and more requests to cover issues outside of race, as race is not the only issue that affects our readership. And, I think it is helpful to explore other issues and movements (feminism, fat acceptance, what have you) as the same silencing tactics are used time and time again.
The only thing that changes is the terms to describe the subject.
Hope that answers your question.
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 1:30 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:
“Me”, I find it interesting that even with an explanation of how these things intersect, and me explaining that I recognize that Muslim is not a race, you will continue arguing what is really not even the point. I also think it’s odd that you didn’t bring up such objections when there were other “religion” related discussions on this blog… perhaps because you could see the inherent racism in people questionning Obama’s religion but cannot see the bias in someone disrepecting me publicly because of mine? Make no mistake about it, the reaction to me is not only because they think I am an immigrant but specifically because I am Muslim.
I don’t know what “special rights” you think PoC have in this land or that Muslims are trying to gain. The reality is that we are discriminated against and there is nothing “special” about being able to get a job one is qualified for, rent or buy a house where one desires, and not be harrassed everywhere one goes. To be treated with dignity is not a “special” right, and yet it is a right that many PoC, and yes, Muslims of all ethnicities, still do not have in this country.
As to me telling you that you don’t have to read me, you can take that as you like. I don’t read people that offend me, and I don’t apologize for not caring to be offended. You said I offend you, so I am merely suggesting that you continue to enjoy this wonderful site as you presumeably did previously, and skip over my posts if you don’t want to be offended. Because there will be more posts from me, and rather than telling me how offensive I am over and over and essentially derailing conversation, for your own pleasure I want you to know that I don’t mind if you spare yourself my offensiveness.
I am surprised and pleased to see that this post has garnered a great deal of healthy and interesting discussion, and that people are able to make connections from it to their own non-Muslim experiences. It is, however, sad to me that the one negative person in the bunch happens to be a brother/sister of mine. It is not pathetic or self-serving that I suggest to you that if you find me so problemmatic, you should feel free to avoid me rather than publicly fight with me. To you be your way, and to me be mine. Salaams.
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 2:41 pm ¶
Ms. Four wrote:
I’ve been mulling over some of the issues raised here, Aaminah. Thanks for an interesting and thought-provoking post.
I have a different perspective on this because I live in Cairo, Egypt, and on a pretty regular basis encounter a lot of racism from Egyptians (and usually Muslims, because most are here) towards my kids, who are from Ethiopia (I’m white; we’re all American).
The commonly used slur for black people here is “abd,” which means slave.
Another way of dismissing black people here is when people refer to any sub-Saharan African as being a “Sudani.” (I’ve heard this directed to my young children, who don’t look Sudanese at all, and who are 3 and 5 years old.) And many of the Sudanis here are actually Muslim, too.
The other thing we hear towards my kids is “Hakuna matada! Hakuna banana!” All said with a laugh and a smile.
I’m NOT bringing this up to say “See, Muslims are racist/intolerant too.” Not at all. But because here, it’s the expat community (mostly but not entirely white) who is most accepting of our unusual family. I guess its the international experience.
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 2:57 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:
Ms. Four, you bring up alot of issues that will require alot of discussion.
The thing is, as a white American, you probably are clueless as to how nasty white American expats treat the Egyptians etc. Because they are nice to you, you don’t realize that people like you (not you personally) have been talking to the Egyptians like they are slaves all this time.
I almost want to say it’s about time some white people got to experience what it’s like to be on this side of things. But for that I don’t wish meanness on any child, and that I don’t think there is any excuse for such bad behavior no matter who it comes from.
You do not however understand what the term Sudani means. It is not a derogatory term at all, nor does it refer to the Sudan as we know it. It is a term that was used centuries ago by Black African Muslims to refer to themselves. Even Western tribes used this term. So the reason Egyptians refer to sub-saharan Africans by that term is because it is the “correct” term historically. It is not akin to ‘abd. It is a completely different term, more similar to how we would say someone is Black or African American. Why we need labels at all of course is a whole different issue, but the reality is that we do categorize ourselves, and there is a difference between an Arab Egyptian and a Black person from sub-saharan Africa, culturally and ethnically speaking.
For the record, much as I hate the term ‘abd, it is more of a “class” issue than actual race issue in many cases. The same term is often used for lower class Arab Egyptians. And higher class Black Africans use the term for anyone lower in class than they are.
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 3:13 pm ¶
Ms. Four wrote:
Wow, Aaminah. I was concerned about racism directed towards my young children, who are black. And you tell me that white Americans treat Egyptians like slaves. And that, pretty much it’s okay what my kids have to deal with racism in Egypt because they have a white, American mother.
When I walk with my kids down the street, and Egyptians point at them and laugh and say “Sudani,” they are NOT referring to my kids as black Muslims. It is not possible.
I’m going to guess that I have interacted with more sub-Saharan Africans in Egypt than you have. As a person of color, for you to dismiss their experiences of racism because it’s coming from Egyptians, is outrageous.
I posted on my blog last week about some of the issues we’ve encountered in Egypt. But what I really want to point folks to is a comment made by Cindy on my blog about this very issue:
http://egypt4.wordpress.com/2008/03/31/why-are-we-here/
Aaminah, your response to me has me wondering this: where have all the manners gone?
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 5:03 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:
Fascinating.
I encourage everyone to follow the link to Ms. Four’s blog because the conversation over there contains a very clear view of how racism is experienced by different groups in Egypt. (Now, this is one view that only spans Egypt, but still.)
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 5:20 pm ¶
Alex wrote:
I think “j” is spot-on with his or her take on this. I would venture to guess the old man at the supermarket took one look at Aaminah’s niqab and decided she was less than human and, as such, not deserving of the courtesy and respect he was very likely brought up to have for others. As such, manners would not have been brought into play. His behavior is rude, but I’m sure he was able to sleep at night thinking he’d done nothing wrong or hurtful at all.
It’s this kind of thinking that makes me hesitant to discuss the long-simmering racist, sexist, homophobic and xenophobic opinions harbored by my older relatives. I know that I can talk until I’m blue in the face but they will refuse to think of people they vilify and fear as human beings.
I can’t think of a way of humanizing “The Other” short of actual contact and the cultivation of relationships - be it with a neighbor, a boss, the person who delivers your mail, a son-in-law, whatever. This proves difficult, of course, when people choose to or live in circumstances where they will probably never come into day to day contact with those they perceive as different and less-than.
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 6:39 pm ¶
Me wrote:
Aaminah,
1. No, i am not trying to argue something that is not a point. ALL that I have done is give my perspective. YOU on the under hand have taken my opinion strikingly personal it seems.
2. You mention that I have not raised a concern other times religion has been brought up concerning different groups and racism. Your agression towards me and this statement makes me believe that you must have me confused for someone else. I don’t remember ever commenting on racialicious before, and if I have i’m sure that it was not something major, and actually I just “favorited” it the other day… I’ve glanced at racialicious before, but only every once in a very while. You make it seem that I am an everyday reader or even weekly… I am not. Maybe there is someone else named “Me”? Dunno. But obviously you are under the impression that I read this blog a lot, well I do not. Again, I just favorited this blog and I’ve just decided to get into it.
3.) It’s obvious that you are not understanding what I am saying. What I am concerned about is the cry of “racism” that Muslims sometimes cry, when Muslim is not a race. This is a concern to me because I don’t want other people to believe that Muslim IS a race! On top of that I don’t want Muslims to believe that they must follow a certain culture as well in order to b Muslim. If Muslims would say “religious discrimination” I would be ok.
4.) As some contributing writer to this blog, I really think your professionalism is sloppy. Again you have totally overreacted to me saying that I was offended. Maybe if I would have told you to renounce your statements and never speak again, it would have been ok to say that I should ignore you, but I didn’t. Again, you have overreacted, completly taken this convesation to a different level.
I am just really shocked that you have replied in such a rude a manner.
Take me being offended so personal that you suggest that I dismiss you from all of your writings. Forgetting that people disagree on issues, and even think that some people hold offensive view– but yet there may be some things that may agree on or some things that could enlighten each other over.
You should really go back and read what I said. I didn’t say anything personal about you. I didn’t say that you were a horrible writer. All that I did was DISAGREE with the way that you saw it. That’s it.
You are the one claiming that I look at you at as being “so problematic”, to the point that I should consider no longer reading what you may write in the future.
It wasn’t even that serious to me Aaminah. But trust me, with you gloating over the positive comments you have received I guess I can see how I could have busted your bubble.
[Mod Note: Me, there is someone else with the same handle. They have not commented here in a while, but the handle has been used before (and since we don’t do registration, that happens sometimes). Perhaps consider changing your handle to Me2?]
Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 10:22 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:
Me: You chose to comment on how offensive you found it that I would be posting about my experience as a Muslim on this site. I answered, very politely, to you as to how I agree that Muslim is not a race, but the treatment is conflated by bigots in a racialized way. I attempted to explain to you how this plays out, and how it is more than just “religious discrimination” at play. I am not taking your statements personally as you suggest, but merely trying to answer to your concerns. You have implied that I have said things I haven’t said (in fact, when I have said the opposite). I merely pointed out that this is a wonderful site full of a lot of discussion on race so you should not feel compelled to agree with Muslim issues being presented, but that it will not hurt my feelings if you dislike me and don’t want to read my posts. Rather than reiterating that Muslim isn’t a race over and over, when I think that is pretty clear and we are in complete agreement, I would be very interested to read your thoughts on any of the other fine topics available on this site. I am sorry that you think it is appropriate for you to accuse me of asking for “special” rights and say I am taking it personal but that I cannot attempt to give you some detail on where I am coming from and explanation of why I feel that Muslim issues tie intrinsicly into race issues in this country. I have my blog address attached to my comments so that anyone who wishes to contact me more directly or privately is able to do so. My email address is available on my blog. If you wish to discuss this further I would prefer, as previously stated, that it not be in a public forum where I am being “called out” for daring to speak about how I have been discriminated against as a Muslim.
I am sorry if I mistook you for someone else. I really do hope you enjoy this site that is chock full of interesting discussion, and I look forward to seeing your comments and perspective elsewhere. Anything “personal” that you may feel the need to express, you are most welcome to email me anytime.
Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 7:32 am ¶
Celeste wrote:
@ Aaminah- I think Me has a point. I think that your post was great but I think that your responses tend to be a bit heavy handed sometimes. It’s one thing when you’re commenting on someone’s post. However, I think that when you’re the contributor that you should try to give a more measured response. I read the same post on your blog and there were commentors there that were trying to discuss things with you but it again it seems that you took offense needlessly.
I think this blog is supposed to be a pretty welcoming place and telling someone that they could choose not to read your posts because they posted a comment that was critical of something in your post doesn’t enocurage discussion. There’s a difference between someone reading something that outright offends you and disagreeing with a post.
It seems that you have to put up with a lot of ignorant shit from a lot a people on a daily basis so maybe you tend to have your guard up and be more defensive, which is completely understandable. However, I don’t think that your reactions need to be that strong when discussing disagreements with (not with trolls) others on this site.
I am hesitant to even bring this up with you because I don’t really like getting into heated online debates with anyone but it was something that I think needed to be addressed.
Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 8:06 am ¶
Anonymous wrote:
@ Ms. Four,
You are right on! Many sub-Saharan Africans face racism in Egypt and Many parts of the Middle East. People forget that Egypt is full of INVADERS, whether it’s the Arab, Syrian, Turk, Persian, Brit or French; it’s full of invaders! You rarely see the aboriginal Egyptians unless you go to Aswan and rural areas. Rural southern Egyptians have more in common culturally and ethnically with Sub-Saharan Africa, and they are discriminated against . You should check out one of my favorite forums Egypt Search forum…I love the guys on the Egyptology, and ancient Egypt section.
@ Aaminah
The people who talk to Egyptians like slaves are those high cast mixed race Egyptians with white skin, many who have little aboriginal ancestry, but love to claim Ancient Egypt as their ancestry but discriminate against the Fellahin (Sa3eadi) and rural southern Egyptians because they are African. Yes the British are colonizers of Egypt, so are Arabs, Persians, Syrians, and Turks!
Sudani is now used as a derogatory term! It is used against sub-Saharan Africans. Sudanese refugees have fled to Egypt, to escape persecution and annihilation in Sudan. They are treated very badly. There have been many cases in Egypt where Sudanese students have been beaten to death by mobs because they are black! Lets not lie about it! It’s time to tell the truth! You will find many stories of Sudanese refugees being killed in Egypt. When my mother was a student in Egypt she experienced plenty of racism, much worse than anything she faced in North America!
Egyptians are not Arab! They are arabized, there’s a difference! Many Egyptians have Turkish, Persian, Syrian, Arab and African ancestry. Rural Egyptians have been isolated and have cultural customs that are similar to sub-Saharan Africa.
The invasion of Arab tribes into Egypt in 632 AD has made Egypt Arabized thus having cultural similarities with the Middle East. Most of North Africa is like this, even parts of Sub-Saharan Africa, where the people are predominantly Muslim.
Ms. Four, your children are called Abd, because of the history of 19 centuries of Arab/Muslim enslavement of Africans. It’s a history that is not told and is hush hush! Being that your children are Ethiopian, I should let you know that many Ethiopian’s were taken as slaves in Arabia and other parts of the Middle East . They still are sold and stolen into slavery today! It’s a racial thing don’t let anyone tell you otherwise! Many of the Black Muslims that use the term towards other Blacks DO NOT consider themselves Black, an example of this is Sudan! They are arab, and want to be arab because in their society, religion dictates that arabs (wahhabis) are at the top and Blacks are at the bottom only fit to be slaves, hence why it took Saudi Arabia till 1962 to abolish slavery; which was duevlargely to international pressure. It’s called Arab Imperialism! It’s all over Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan,and any country that has had Muslim/arab invaders.
The interesting thing is that many of these Black skinned Muslims that use the word (abd) against non-Arabized Blacks (think of Sudan, Mauritania, and Chad, Niger) are referred to as abd when they travel to the Middle East.
Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 9:25 am ¶
Kaonashi wrote:
Yup, this went south pretty quickly.
*follows Latoya to the other link*
Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 9:25 am ¶