Comments

1. Joanna wrote:

   Reminds me of when my (white) friends in high school would ask what my dream guy would look like - would he have blond or brown hair? Would he have blue or brown eyes?

   I always used to feel left out and think, “What if my ideal guy isn’t white?”

   (And then a couple years later I would think, “What if my ideal person isn’t a guy at all?”)

   Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 12:52 pm ¶

2. Scottathan wrote:

   [Mod note - the original term does not meet our current comments policy. Anyone interested in the original term can click on the link to Pat’s blog. For those unfamiliar with the specific term it refers to (I believe) an old Chris Rock joke, unless Pat has another cultural reference that I missed.]

   Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 12:55 pm ¶

3. johnjihoonchang wrote:

   I think Hwoarang looks pretty Asian to me in terms of his facial features and funky hair. His skin tone does seem a little off though.

   Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 1:04 pm ¶

4. Persia wrote:

   I’m not too familiar with the FF games but aren’t most of those (FF) characters Japanese? That original post really needed pictures!

   Many of the clearly white characters (Snake comes to mind) were created by Japanese creators, too– what do people think about that?

   Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 2:00 pm ¶

5. Ike wrote:

   Mitsuhide Akechi was on the list too.

   http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y248/thedynastywarrior/Mitsuhide_Akechi.png

   Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 2:30 pm ¶

6. Latoya Peterson wrote:

   Thanks Ike -

   I’ll tell Pat he’s slacking on the job.

   Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 2:31 pm ¶

7. Jack wrote:

   @Persia: Most of the main characters from FF have white features. Just look at Squall and Cloud, and even Sephiroth.

   I agree with johnjihoonchang, Hwoarang looks Asian in Tekken. Maybe the picture here doesn’t appear to be as much. Try searching him up on Google Image Search. He’s supposed to be South Korean IIRC.

   Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 2:46 pm ¶

8. erica wrote:

   You do realize that in the U.S about 98% of the people making video games are white males? Never mind, the violence and sexism in too many of these games also.

   Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 2:47 pm ¶

9. Joan Flores wrote:

   An old post from Microscopiq:

   http://microscopiq.com/2007/02/first-black-videogame-stars/

   I think Coltrane Crowley is suuuper cute. But I might also be the only person who played that game (it really did bomb).

   Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 2:55 pm ¶

10. Joan Flores wrote:

    Also, he was voiced by Talib Kweli.
    I wonder how much voice work is done by people of color…?
    It reminds me of the old movie, Carmen Jones, where Dorothy Dandridge’s voice was dubbed by a white opera singer.

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 2:59 pm ¶

11. Cheryl Lynn wrote:

    Altair was based on Cuban model David Fumero. Nice looking guy.

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 3:08 pm ¶

12. ILLAIM wrote:

    I have a honest question stemming from the fact that I really don’t know that much about anime, at all, but I do know that that style of artwork is heavily used in a good portion of video games, and it always struck me as odd that a style created and mastered by the Japanese would feature characters that for the most part favored “European” looking peoples. I would venture a lot of that has traversed into the video game market, combined with the views held of Non White protagonist and what the market “wants” are what is deemed profitable

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 4:02 pm ¶

13. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Wow, lots of questions about drawing white…

    I have some ideas on this, but let me actually check with an authority (hi Naiomi!) and get back to y’all.

    Another commenter, in the discussion on that boy scrubbing game mentioned that the Japanese characters are drawn neutral - we just fill in the idea that neutral means white. And he’s right - When they European or white characters are drawn, they do look physically different than the characters that are assumed Japanese. But again, I haven’t actually studied this so I need to find some proof.

    This also ties into that discussion with racism in gaming where people are like “these games were made by Japanese people, so they are the real racists!”

    so, I’ll get back to y’all with actual facts and things to back it up as soon as I track down some of the sources I read/spoke to/met at WAM…

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 4:17 pm ¶

14. Faith wrote:

    A lot of video game characters are created by Japanese developers. We should ask them to identify the race/ethnicity of their characters instead of filling it in for ourselves.

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 4:46 pm ¶

15. DivergentDana wrote:

    “And he’s right - When they European or white characters are drawn, they do look physically different than the characters that are assumed Japanese.”

    In what ways? Because I’d have no trouble believing that Japanese was “neutral” in Manga/video games if the characters didn’t constantly have fair hair and eyes…. and simultaneously, at that.

    /And here I thought I was weird for having a crush on Hwoarang… ah, hell, I probably still am.

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 5:29 pm ¶

16. A. wrote:

    No. I’m over here drooling over Mitsuhide Akechi.

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 5:46 pm ¶

17. TierList E wrote:

    *coos* Hwoarang is fine- and I also believe that he looks pretty non-white. And fine. I also think Yun- seong off Soul Calibur is fine. *sigh* I know I have a problem.

    I’m curious about the anime characters being drawn “race-neutral”. I wonder if that’s really possible.

    *thoughtful* If we average the skin tones of all “races” anime stays lighter than that. A lot of the hair styles and colorings is out of the range of humanly possible period- but still a “racially nondescript” person would have black hair, or really dark brown. The eyes would round out though, a la anime, but would stay dark brown. But like hair a lot of the colors are just implausable as much as caucasian-plausable.

    I think people are able to note racially ambiguous people, even if they get confused by it. I think the best way to pull true ‘race-neutral’ would be to ambiguous the characters out of being able to effectively assign a race to them. Amine as this point imo is leaning towards caucasian features with Asain! bonus, effectively making them neither in a sense . . .but I wouldn’t call that ‘race neutral’. Maybe Eurasian neutral?

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 6:53 pm ¶

18. Falyne wrote:

    I thought Tidus was rather attractive, and despite the blonde hair, his features (at least in the detailed cutscenes) look Asian (at least more so than, say, Squall).

    Their list is kinda messed up, though. Seigfried hotter than Raphael? lol wut?

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 7:36 pm ¶

19. A. wrote:

    DivergentDana - White Characters are usually made to be very, very tall, pale skinned and blonde. They actually tower over everyone else.

    The men typically tend to be a bit bigger built as well. Fushigi Yuugi (which is an anime, I know), is a prime example. (As Nakago is regarded as being a foreigner) Samurai Champloo is another prime example as well. (With the Dutch guy)

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 7:48 pm ¶

20. Persia wrote:

    In what ways? Because I’d have no trouble believing that Japanese was “neutral” in Manga/video games if the characters didn’t constantly have fair hair and eyes…. and simultaneously, at that.

    There are a lot of unusual hair and eye colors in Asian characters in manga, though (which I know so much better than I know videogames!). Part of the reason is that in a cartoon it’s helpful to have immediate visual distinctions– the kind you don’t get if everyone has dark hair and eyes.

    And some manga/anime have a clearer distinction between races than others, I’m blanking on examples right now though.

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 8:30 pm ¶

21. Jay wrote:

    Many of the clearly white characters (Snake comes to mind) were created by Japanese creators, too– what do people think about that?

    1) Supposedly Snake is hapa.
    2) Saying “they’re Japanese creators” often means “well, see, even the non-whites do this, so what’s wrong with that?” and the issue’s kinda more complicated than that. I do note that Japanese in Japan are the majority (it seems obvious except in context.).

    Latoya and Dana, I think I was the person who pointed out the neutral/white thing. Matt Thorn had an article about this here:

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/shukan-st/english_news/opinion/2004/op20040813/op20040813main.htm

    and here:

    http://www.matt-thorn.com/mangagaku/faceoftheother.html

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 8:31 pm ¶

22. Persia wrote:

    I should add that to a certain degree this “are certain characters created in Asia actually Asian” debate is irrelevant to the list, because it’s clear many Westerners see those characters as white/Anglo/Western.

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 8:31 pm ¶

23. pat m. wrote:

    the way images created in japan are read in the US, and vice versa, is always a contentious topic. my take on it is this:

    when it comes to analyzing images and the readings thereof, the author’s intent is often irrelevant when we think about how people read those images. in japan, to japanese people, characters like iori yagami may seem perfectly japanese - after all, walking around here shows plenty of people who have (albeit unnatural) fiery red or blonde hair. or even platinum grey locks like sephiroth. certainly he was designed for a japanese audience - his character design evokes plenty of standard tropes used in anime/manga/video games here.

    when we’re talking about images and sex, however, i think it’s telling that one (good catch on mitsuhide akechi, btw), MAYBE 2 if we count hwoarang, have physical features that are generally racialized as non-white. and, hell, they didn’t even break top 20.

    on another note: how come racialicious gets all the good commenters?

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 9:16 pm ¶

24. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Pat -

    on another note: how come racialicious gets all the good commenters?

    Because we’re cool like that.

    *cues the Rebirth of Slick*

    Jay -

    Thanks for linking, much appreciated.

    All -

    I actually attended a lecture at the JICC where the lecturer devoted an entire segment of her speech on Shojo Manga to the idea of “white” and Japanese characters and used some great slides to illustrate the historical differences and how they look today. I am also going to ask a game designer/Japanese person acquaintance her opinion. Look for a full length post on this…

    Posted 03 Apr 2008 at 9:52 pm ¶

25. Joan Flores wrote:

    The Prince of Persia

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 12:14 am ¶

26. kp wrote:

    Fascinatingly, Altair in Assassin’s creed is never actually seen in the major action of the video game.
    (His face is hidden by the hood.) He’s also supposed to be a middle eastern assassin fighting against Inquisitors…. and controlled by his white guy/contemporary bartender descendant which adds another juicy layer

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 1:18 am ¶

27. Mary wrote:

    This also ties into that discussion with racism in gaming where people are like “these games were made by Japanese people, so they are the real racists!”

    I agree with you, that’s a total BS argument. But, I don’t think calling out Japanese racism is inherently letting white America off the hook, no matter how much some people would like it to be that way. It’s not zero-sum - and I would hope that I can make sharp criticisms of the racism that exists in both cultures.

    Additionally I think sometimes the opposite occurs, where Japanese racism and American racism are lumped in together despite their very different flavors and histories. It’s true that with the influx of Japanese pop culture into America and vice versa, they sometimes intersect with each other, as this post seems to suggest. But at the end of the day, each party is responsible for its own part in propagating racist ideas and images.

    Some people (and I’m not calling out Racialicious or anybody in particular here, just speaking to something I’ve seen and heard) seem to want to absolve Japanese people and/or companies of all personal responsibility and that disturbs me, not because I think people need to be frothing at the mouth against Japan or anything, but because it carries a whiff of infantilization - “Oh, that’s just their culture. They can’t help it.” To me that comes across like a very insidious form of Japan-bashing.

    Note: Latoya, I am not attributing all these viewpoints to you or accusing you of letting Japan off the hook, just speaking to a general thing I’ve seen in some discussions of this topic.

    I also think that, since I’m an American and I live here, it is incumbent on me to go harder on my own country first before I start critiquing Japan.

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 7:25 am ¶

28. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Some people (and I’m not calling out Racialicious or anybody in particular here, just speaking to something I’ve seen and heard) seem to want to absolve Japanese people and/or companies of all personal responsibility and that disturbs me, not because I think people need to be frothing at the mouth against Japan or anything, but because it carries a whiff of infantilization - “Oh, that’s just their culture. They can’t help it.” To me that comes across like a very insidious form of Japan-bashing.

    Mary, it’s cool, I got your message the first time. That is also a very huge problem I see in conversations about gaming and manga - if people aren’t pointing the finger at Japan, they are trying to absolve Japan of any racism or explain it away as culture. (That also falls into that “Japan is a mythical fairlyland” tripe you hear from the some of the more star-struck fans.)

    I would also offer that it is a bit harder to recognize racism in a country you have never lived in. And to understand the other forms of it - my first awareness of racism in Japan came from researching global trends in hip-hop and learning a little about the oppression of non-Japanese ethnic minorities. So, I think the issue is complex and worth exploring…

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 7:34 am ¶

29. EvilAngelfish wrote:

    I think Matt Thorne’s assessment is an astute one. I tend to liken the way characters in games/manga/anime are depicted to the way in which fantasy authors/illustrators in the States depict characters - they can have purple hair, golden eyes, etc. but by default, they’re usually whatever race the creator is unless otherwise specified.

    Though I’m not as familiar with the gaming world, I’m a bit of an anime/manga connoisseur and I’ve lived in Japan for a bit (which is not to say that I’m an expert on Japan, anime or manga). It actually took me a while to realize that the characters *don’t* necessarily look Western/Caucasian to Japanese people because many of them *did* look that way to me. For example, I know Sailor Pluto (from Sailor Moon) or Momo (from Peach Girl) have absolutely no portion of African descent but in the manga, their skin is colored dark and to my Western eyes, dark skin = black or brown, not Japanese but not with milk-white skin. However, in their respective animes, there is a more subtle distinction between their complexions and other character’s complexions. Also, there are cases in which foreign (non-Japanese characters) are clearly marked by differences in coloring or exaggerated features (e.g., Claudia and Roy from Macross) but there are also cases in which they’re only distinguished by their non-Japanese names (e.g., the entire cast of the manga FAKE, in which most of the characters are Western but are not given exaggerated features). So while I think we can clearly lament that no black, brown or even darker-skinned Japanese people made the list, I’m not sure we can say it’s a bunch of white guys…

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 9:06 am ¶

30. Persia wrote:

    Mary, that’s a great comment, and the way I try to look at things too.

    I’m kind of shocked now that someone brought him up that the Prince of Persia didn’t make the list– he’s non-white literally by definition, a popular character, and IMO pretty hot. Maybe Altair’s taken over his ’spot.’

    Jay, I didn’t know that about Snake. And I wasn’t trying to say ‘the Japanese are racist too!’, so I hope that didn’t come across (that you were just trying to stop any similar line of thought before it started). I do think the way Westerners interpret Japanese and Korean characters is pretty interesting, though. I did an internet meme about characters of color a while back, and it was interesting to see how many of my ‘minority’ characters were ‘majority’ characters in their own culture.

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 9:31 am ¶

31. MoeHailstone wrote:

    Why do i keep gettin my Feedblitz articles 30 posts and a day late deep!! Just got this email a minute ago….

    Anyway its to satisfy “white guy wish fulfillment” …lol I find it funny that it mirrors conversations that I have had with my white counterparts at work where I ask “If all those that perform superhuman feats are white, where are they when it comes to professional sports? They always draw a blank because it is pushing an agenda that isn’t even opaque in its racism. LOL

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 9:34 am ¶

32. just passing by wrote:

    Most Westerners assume that anime and manga characters with a Japanese nationality are depicted as white people because of the following:

    -the big eyes, many people have a misconception that East-Asians have small slitty eyes… so if a character has big eyes, they must be white of course… actually there are lots of East-Asians who don’t have small eyes, but people confuse the epicanthic fold with small eyes, which is a pice of skin that covers partly the eye near the lacrymal duct (?) this is proved by the fact that when some people talk about surgical operations some Asians undergo to remove the epicanthic fold, they say it’s to remove the slant, and also blepharoplasty, which is done to create an upper eyelid (or double eyelid) is also mixed up with this operation by ignorants yet there are East Asians who naturally have an upper eyelid, so creating the crease when you don’t ahve one can’t be said to make your eyes less East Asians..

    -of course the hair colours (what is white about pink or green hair though?)

    Yet, there are often people who explain surprise at representations of anime characters with small mouths and noses.
    Which is illogical if the anime characters are supposed to represent white people.

    This is how many Japanese see themselves, as having smaller and less proeminent noses than whites.

    There is a range in Japanese manga, anime and games to how different “races” are depicted:

    -Either the style is very simple and everyone has similar facial features with just names, skin colour and hair colour to differenciate the characters.

    -The Japanese characters are not depicted realistically and look just cartoonish (i.e. Eyeshield 21) while on the other hand all non Japanese characters (white, black etc.) are drawn to look like archetypes of these “races” or “ethnic” groups. Sometimes the depictions are realistic, but they can also be stereotypical, huge noses is a cmmon fixture of setreotypical portrayals of white people paired up with light hair and eyes, so that undermines the argument that Japanese see themelves as being the same as whites.

    -Everyone, including Japanese characters are drawn to look like the part of the world they’re from, either realistically or in a less realistic but still incorporoating “ethnic differences” way.

    So it is a misconception that the multi-colored, big eyed, small mouthed small nosed anime and manga characters are white.

    (sorry for rehashing what many other posters said, I just put why I have been mulling over for a long time, also English is not my native language, so please forgive me for any awkyardness)

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 10:34 am ¶

33. Roy wrote:

    Just chiming in to back up what other people have already said- the ways that an American portrays or perceives race in a game is going to be heavily influenced by our own history of race and the things that we learn to associate as being racial tags. Those things aren’t universal, though, as the eye issue shows. The long history of racially stereotyping Asian characters as having sharply slanted, narrow eyes tends, in my experience, to be a pretty Western thing.

    I think someone mentioned it, but even within American animation, there are all kinds of weird, conflicting markers that could seem strange if viewed from the outside. Look at animation like the Simpsons, where the characters have yellow skin, massive bulging eyes, blue hair, and extremely distorted facial features. None of which stops American audiences from viewing characters as White.

    You do realize that in the U.S about 98% of the people making video games are white males?

    It is pretty bad. I think that the industry currently stands at somewhere between 10 and 15 percent women, and I haven’t seen a racial breakdown. Another problem is that many of the women working in the industry feel a lot of pressure to adopt a “one of the guys” attitude with regards to sexism.

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 12:56 pm ¶

34. TierList E wrote:

    . . . I’m . . .still a bit iffy, kinda.

    I get what you guys are saying with the protrayal of anime characters, and I agree with most if not all of it- I certainly don’t believe all Asians have super squinty eyes and overly ethnic features. I’ve noted the difference in European appearances when they show up in contrast to the locals, but something niggling me about it and I . . .may know why. Maybe.

    I guess where I’m coming from is that I’m black, and in media representations the black women start to look a certain way to applease majority aesthetics. But still, these women are certainly black. Black people *are* born with lighter skin, *are* born with straighter hair, heck, they can be born with blonde hair and green eyes, but I get twitchy when *everyone* starts to look that way, and I for one, get alienated. I’ve felt the some way about anime (not so much manga- a lot like to keep up better variances on people in general).

    I’m glad the artistic expression developed in a way to challenge Asian stereotypes in looks, but I think something goes missing if it gets too rare to see darker colorings and the (realistic) eye slant- if you do everything diversity will shine out better and keep everyone included.

    (Sorry I’m kinda rambling, but hopefully you understand what I’m trying to say right?)

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 2:28 pm ¶

35. Morpho wrote:

    The “Hottest Men of Color” list should definitely include Yun-Seong and Hwang from Soul Calibur III. I don’t game much but they’re a start.

    Posted 08 Apr 2008 at 5:39 am ¶

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