by Carmen Van Kerckhove
I’m joining the folks listed above to guest-blog over at Talking Points Memo’s TPMCafe this week about race, politics, and Obama’s speech.
My first post is titled Why Should White People Fight Racism? Check it out.
Though I think Carmen held her own as a guest blogger at Talking Points Memo (fantastic job, girl!), she brings up a topic that I’d like some of the white commenters on this thread, especially those who feel it’s the primary responsibility for fighting racism falls on white people, to dialogue about. Carmen says:
“I wholeheartedly agree with Ta-Nehisi when he wrote: ‘At some point, this has to move beyond a ‘do the right thing white people’ discussion and become a ‘this is for the good of America’ discussion. We have to start convincing people that closing the racial gap helps everyone.’
If we’re going to get people on board with fighting racism, we need to appeal to their enlightened self-interest in some way. But how? If we define — as many activists do — racism as a system that benefits whites at the expense of people of color, then how do we convince those reaping the benefits to change the system?”
Anyone got any answers? Anyone? Anyone?
I don’t agree that a white person criticizing others’ racist words or actions necessarily means they are trying to be a Good White Person; that a white person asking people of colour questions about racism necessarily means they are shirking their responsibilities for their own education; that a white person talking about their anti-racist work is necessarily waiting for an applause. I don’t agree that Tim Wise should be condemned for receiving a disproportionate amount of media coverage for being white.
Here is my interpretation of those list items:
1. Good White Person – I thought this was a criticism of those white people who, when accused of racism, say that they are the good white people because those other white people, usually Republicans, are bad. e.g., “I’m not racist. I’m liberal!” They will point out how much they hate Ann Coulter and Bill O’Reilly, as if racism is an all-or-nothing property. If you point out their racism, they think you are lumping them together with Ann Coulter and Bill O’Reilly.
2. Lean On You – I thought this was a criticism of those white people who think they are entitled to having a person of colour give them their time and energy to educate them. For example, it’s one thing to ask a person of colour who wants to discuss racism, actively seeks to spread awareness, and has time. It’s another thing to ask a person of colour who is busy and whose life priorities are not about educating white people or even individual white people. It’s also lazy white people who don’t want to do the work and want you to spoonfeed them. If you give them a link, they don’t want to read the link and want you to summarize it for them.
3. The Pause for Applause – This comes into play only when the white person is trying to seek acknowledgement from a person of colour.
Basically, criticizing other’s racist words and actions, and asking the appropriate people of colour questions about racism are things white people should do. Talking about antiracist work is neutral, as it does not necessarily help or hinder, as long as it is relevant to the topic.
Those are not the only things members of the oppressor group need to do, but adding two cents of help is still contributing. It’s not really about the white people and their intentions. It’s about the real effects on the lives of people of colour.
I’m not sure I agree that those criticisms are even all that harsh, and I think those of us who do are generally just being defensive. So many white people are willing to join anti-racist movements only so long as we’re never challenged and are given some kind of award for even taking the time to show up.
Clearly there is space for us pasty folks in anti-racist movements, its just a matter of where and when we take up space and if we honor the humility that ought to accompany our participation in these movements. Asking for white people to tone down obnoxiousness is not too much to ask.
As for your last question Carmen, the cynical side of me says that whites who can’t see racism directly affecting their/our loved ones are so often doomed not to participate because they/we don’t feel invested.
I’d like to offer that we shouldn’t have to make those links; racism degrades our own personal integrity and highlights the fact that our successes are anything but innocent. We ought to be motivated as well by a desire to know that when good things happen to us its because we deserve them, not just because we are privileged…
Um, I’m pretty sure I’m ignorant. As I said in that other thread, some of the subtle stuff flies right by. And I know that hurts people when I don’t immediately “get” the racist thing they’re pointing at and shaking their head over.
I know you don’t know me from anybody, but I don’t particularly enjoy knowing that something I have done or not done has hurt people — people who really fun and smart and kind.
Only republicans have to be persuaded that there’s a buck in it for them, I don’t care all that much for money, I’d rather have free time.
I think black people are crazy — usually in a good way. 
When a guy says something sexist, I can usually disect the thing in seconds and explain exactly why he thinks women are only meat. But I am having trouble with racism, and I feel bad about it.
I always want proof for anything, racism is really no different, but asking for an explaination upsets black people like nothing else, and I’m trying to understand why. Really, really sorry to cause offense.
White women don’t get this upset when men ask for an explaination of sexism, why is it so different for black women regarding racism? Perhaps it’s selection bias, and white women really get equally upset over sexism, and I just don’t notice?
Well, I’m still at a loss as to what I’m supposed to do as a White Person. This isn’t because of Carmen’s of course, it was a great post! What is it that I’m supposed to do? I guess the problem is I don’t know how to stop other people from being racist, any more than I know how to stop them from fighting foolish wars, or stealing from one another or any manner of foolishness that human beings do.
Oh, I keep mentioning black people specifically because I’ve managed to actually keep all my other friends, regardless of ethnicity. They don’t seem to have any trouble telling me what’s on their mind, at least I don’t think they do.
Ok, I really am going back to lurking now.
@stupid white person:
Maybe it is a selection bias. From my experience, when I point out that what a white person said was racist, the typical white person gets a defensive, visceral, angry, upset reaction and perceives me as being very angry, when I am not, and I am merely pointing out things that are obvious and always there, a part of life.
You say that you can usually dissect sexism in seconds, whereas you are clueless about racism. Maybe you already understand why something is sexist, so that’s why you don’t get that defensive reaction or perceive the person as being very upset?
To the general public, feminists are perceived as “feminazis” that go psycho over everything. You wouldn’t perceive feminists that way because you understand why it’s sexism.
@Remorse:
Start with yourself. If you don’t think you need to do anything as long as you’re not actively racist, then you haven’t done any thinking. Are you aware of this?
Implicit Association Tests
I left, because I’m an idiot, and the first place I landed was here:
It talked about how the more suppressed one’s voice, the more angrrrrry that voice appears to the one being criticized (which I think is me in this case).
I learned something today!! I’m even more of an idiot then previously suspected. :/
@Torontonian:
I’m with you on that. I feel I’m deeply engaged with my internal ego struggle that seems to be the source of racism and most other human maladies. I work on my relationships with Blackfolk (and Whitefolk) on a daily basis (most of my customers and half or more of my co-workers are Black). I think the answer to my question “So now what do I do?” is to keep doing this. But I’m open to suggestions and discussion. Thanks.
I agree with Carmen’s point about self-flagellation. When white people talk endlessly about their guilt and complicity I find it boring and often pointless.
I think when white people get past that stage, they’re in a healthier place with the attitude “it’s really not all about me”. The ultimate stage is to rid themselves of the pathological attention-demanding associated with whiteness.
Having read Tim Wise, he sometimes gets a little too touchy-feely for my taste, but all his arguments are totally rational and well-grounded. I think his stuff is fantastic. His intended audience is white — I wish ALL white people read his books — even though his loudest appreciators seem to be people of color, and if the emotional appeals work to change the minds of some white people, that’s great.
Here’s one suggestion I have in order to not startle white people so much, but without soft-pedaling anything.
Stop making these lists 100% about white people. Make them about ALL people. Absolutely, these defensive offenses (e.g. Lean on You, Good Person) are typically and majority white… but they can also be found all over. For example, and Asian person who’s on the defensive about some black-person stereotyping they just did. Or a black person who made an English-only, anti-immigrant comment and feels they have an ironclad justification for making it.
If you start off talking about universal flaws of human nature, then narrow them down specifically to white people, they’ll accept it easier.
Of course, the problem with this approach is that it feeds into a typical white defense: “people of color are more racist than white people”. E.g. start talking about white racism and someone will make a really irritating change of subject and say “well in Japan, they’re really racist”! “What about Rev. Wright!”
So it’s not a solution, just part of the toolkit.
Thanks for your comments, everyone. I look forward to hearing more ideas about this.
I brought up this question during our panel at the WAM conference, and one woman in the audience suggested that white people’s role should be to educate other white people about race and racism, thereby taking the burden off people of color.
I agree with this – and I think Tim Wise does an excellent job at this.
But even that answer was met with some resistance. Another woman, queer-identified, said that she would be uncomfortable with straight people educating other straight people about queer issues, for example.
@ Carmen–
I’m curious: did the woman who was queer-identified say why she’d be uncomfortable?
From what I can remember, her concern was that the straight person’s knowledge of queer issues would come from some totally bogus source, like lesbian porn. And she would then communicate that flawed knowledge onto the next person.
Carmen,
I just wanted to tell you that I thought your post was thoughtful and incisive, yet also conversational and inclusive. I’m not that familiar with the TPM Cafe, but I was dismayed by some of the clueless comments in response to your post, and thrilled to see dNA there representing for Racialicious readers. It must be dismaying to see all the hard, inspiring work you’ve done over the years dismissed by ding-dongs who disagree with your word choice or who skim a blog years in the making in five minutes and make cursory pronouncements about the substance of its content. Those accusing you of “punditry” sounded pretty envious to me, and I think your increasing media profile speaks to the importance and incisiveness of the work you do with New Demographics and here on Racialicious. I know you have a tough skin and don’t need defending, but I just wanted to share my appreciation for what you’ve done and continue to do, and as you know, it is certainly appreciated both here and all over the blogosphere. Can I get an “oh snap”?
Carmen, good post. And I also thank you for everything you are doing to fight racism.
I completely identify with your post, because the majority of the time I feel that whatever I do to fight racism falls into the “white person’s lip service” category. It’s frustrating. I also worry that doing the same thing over and over again – pointing out racist comments and attitudes when I hear them, supporting anti-racist initiatives, etc. – is missing the mark.
I believe the answer lies, as you quoted in the article, in framing discussions of race in terms of being good for America. I want to believe that white Americans will engage on that level. I just hope that we haven’t allow racism to divide us to the point that it’s too late.
Again, well done!
@ Carmen–
Hmmm…OK. I think I get the speaker’s point, namely that though an ally’s heart may be in the right place, s/he’ll pass on some misinformation that really isn’t helping the cause. But my reflexive question would be, “…so, then, what is an ally to do if we’re not trusted enough to be educated on the issue (through self-reflection, reading about it, etc.) to speak on it?” My reflexive response, “It falls *back* on the person in the marginalized group to ‘educate’ about the offending -ism.” But again, I know that I’m thinking reflexively.
I dig atlasien’s suggestion for the anti-racism toolkit. [BTW, your comments have pretty righteous, atlasien.--TCS] I also think that your question, Carmen, gets to the core of dealing with the matrix of racism, specifically with the matrix of white-skin advantage.
The reason I’m being a little coy about answering this is because I haven’t been reared with the interlocking mechanics of that particular advantage. I, being an African American woman, have been reared to understand it in order to deal with it, not reared in it as an identity in which to move through this world, if that makes any sense.
That’s why I’m really interested in hearing from some more of the white Racialicious commenters who see themselves as anti-racism, more specifically anti-white skin advantage. To borrow from Oprah, what was your “aha” moment when you saw fighting against racism, specifically white-skin advantage, was in your enlightened self-interest? What have been the repercussions in your taking that stance?
An addendum–…and, in light of what you believe and/or do, what would be your argument to those people reaping the benefits, considering that the people may be parents, bosses, friends, neighbors?
great article, Carmen….but i know you did NOT use “snap” in a sentence!
i mean, because i’d rather talk about THAT than what you actually had to say.
by the way, the Lean On You When I’m Not Strong reference immediately brought to mind Elisabeth Hassellback recently asking for the Rules on Racism. That girl….she’s a riot.
@stupidwhiteperson:
“Oh, I keep mentioning black people specifically because I’ve managed to actually keep all my other friends, regardless of ethnicity. They don’t seem to have any trouble telling me what’s on their mind, at least I don’t think they do.”
Maybe this has something to do with it:
“”I think black people are crazy — usually in a good way.”
@ thesciencegirl–oh SNAP!
There were soooo many haters on that site. They were more interested in critisizing Carmen than actually addressing the posting. Very odd bunch.
@stupidwhiteperson….. is “crazy in a good way” supposed to be a compliment? If you really perceive black people in such a one dimensional way then you should really try to learn more about our myriad of non-crazy or amusing qualities (try to avoid Flavor of Love) before trying to befriend another black person.
From what I can remember, her concern was that the straight person’s knowledge of queer issues would come from some totally bogus source, like lesbian porn. And she would then communicate that flawed knowledge onto the next person.
That’s what I totally don’t get. Why do people insist that everything in porn is totally 100% correct (this often occurs when talking about characteristics about gender, sexual orientation and race)? Is it wishful thinking or something?
@ The Cruel Secretary:
As an anti-racist white female, I don’t believe I ever had an “AHA!” moment about the implications of race as an issue of “enlightened self-interest.” I just always knew that, even if I would be brandished as a “n*%%er lover” by my grandparents, or as “colorblind” (ick!) by my “liberal” counterparts, my life has been better off because I have had the privilege of having a mixed group of friends since I can first remember. The obvious advantages of this have outweighed the disadvantages, and therein lies my self-interest– if I like hearing about other people’s experiences, and trying to see things from their perspective, and sharing my own with them, why shouldn’t I do that? The life that I have the luxury to choose includes a fair amount of listening to things that are difficult to hear. It includes knowing how my skin color de facto implies and gains me enormous privileges in the United States, as well as in many other countries throughout the world. I don’t do much self-flagellation, because I feel like it doesn’t get me anywhere, nor does it help any kind of general cause. To put it simply, I feel privileged to have been brought up in a household where these issues were discussed openly, many times in reaction to the completely overtly racist things my grandparents, aunts, and uncles would say. Being the “black sheep” in an extended family of racists causes me sorrow, not only because I feel deeply disconnected with some of my family members, but because I feel like they are just missing out on the insights you can gain when you, as a white person, stop excusing, flagellating, or berating others, and start reading and listening to experiences that are completely outside your own.
I’m a white person, and I’ve yet to find a one-size-fits-all way to convince other white people that thay need to take a personal interest in dismantling racism. jvansteppes lists some good openers, but I think situation-specific arguments do best most of the time. Working-class white people have done immesurable harm to themselves (and, obviously, even more harm to others) by ingnoring and condoning the mistratment of their immigrant coworkers and their coworkers of color. White people often miss out on potential friendships and relationships because we can’t get over racial sterotypes long enough to get to know those around us as individuals. We can miss out on the best parts of the civic life and culture of wherever we live.
@Remorse and stupidwhiteperson
There is an excellent book by Beverly Daniel Tatum called “Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?” I think Carmen includes this in the canon of books she uses for the Anti-Racism Training Course (which I am totally going to take as soon as I can figure a way to get my company to pay for it!). The book features a chapter on the importance of forming a positive white racial identity around the legacy of white anti-racism and forming social bonds with other white anti-racists. The chapter is very powerful and she highlights some great points. I believe a lot of what she covers in this chapter would be a great starting point as you continue to search for solutions to where your efforts are best concentrated in the struggle for anti-racism and the dismantling of systems that support unearned privilege. I know it was very eye opening for me (I’m Af. Am. by the way and had little to no exposure to the concepts she put forth. It really was a damn near life changing read for me.)
*Slowly nodding*
@Amanda–I really appreciate your honest, well-stated response, and I’m mulling it over. So, to get back to Carmen’s question, how do you, in your opinion, convince other white people (in this case) who reap the benefits of racism that it’s their best self-interest to change the system so they can enjoy the greater benefit of being a citizen of a world that–let’s face it–of color, like what you have on a microcosm with your friends?
@impossibletospell–
Dig your response, too. Still mulling, still listening…
1. I don’t think it’s anybody’s “job” to educate anyone else about anything. That said, I’d imagine that if one considers them politically progressive/liberal/leftist (whether white or POC) they would take it upon themselves to educate people (themselves included) against racism and contribute collectively to the push back when it happens.
2. About self-interest: Race-centered liberalism (and I do mean that a bit perjoratively) is at best a moral appeal for better behavior from white people that might be effective in dealing with some garden-variety middle class racism. For not so privileged poor and working class whites, who aren’t particularly interested in being lectured by college professors about how privileged they are, this appeal usually comes off as a lame guilt trip. A class framework that explains why racism against immigrants (or any group) undermines the labor struggle for something like higher wages and therefore needs to be fought is probably going to get a lot better of a reception than the “join us cause your privileged argument.”
3. Tim Wise: I’m not a fan. Ever talk to a religious person where Jesus is the answer to every problem. Wise’s race fundamentalism is practically the same dynamic, where you don’t even need to read his articles because the analysis is already prescribed– white racism is at the root every problem.
@ Ali – Thanks for the suggestion! I just read a long blog entry about that book somewhere and it sounded very interesting. Since you have brought it up again I will now make sure I read that.
@ Everyone – The more that I think about this question, the more certain I am that it is really important for Blackfolk and Whitefolk to talk with each other about race and racism. Here’s one problem: I think both sides are inevitably going to hear things they don’t like but they should not break the discussion, they should stay engaged, even when they hear ignorance, racism, and plain old BS. I believe we have to try to reach people who normally offend us, or who are just plain wrong. It’s pretty easy to call people on their cr*p – in fact I think most of us have become experts on that, and it hasn’t really gotten us that far. Maybe the harder thing to do, and the bigger payoff, lies in trying to change their heart and get them to agree with you. That’s a whole separate set of communication skills I think, and they aren’t easy for most of us. Great willingness to listen, and to concede some points, makes it easier for the enemy to also give ground. And one of the best things I ever heard and took to heart in my life was that the best way to defeat your enemy is to make them your friend.
> the importance of forming a positive white racial identity around the legacy of white anti-racism and forming social bonds with other white anti-racists
Great point, Ali! I had forgotten about that chapter in Tatum’s book.
> A class framework that explains why racism against immigrants (or any group) undermines the labor struggle for something like higher wages and therefore needs to be fought is probably going to get a lot better of a reception than the “join us cause your privileged argument.”
I really like this, Drydock.
Thanks everyone! I’m really enjoying all of your ideas. Please keep ‘em coming!
I agree that framing racism in terms of workers’ rights is primary but I also have to ask why then have labor movements failed so much at forging this type of solidarity? I think there are a lot of white workers who forget that in the USA the white working class is very different from the Latino working class; much in the same way that many forget that feminized working class positions are very different from the imagined factory worker…
As a queer from a small town I love it when straight people take on homophobia- even when they make obnoxious mistakes- which they make ALL the time. Race and sexuality aren’t always comparable [someone send a memo to the gay marriage people on that topic...] but it is nice to know that straight people will speak up for me, and I’ve been told that when I speak up to be an ally to POC its appreciated too, as long as we’re careful about how we do it.
@TheCruelSecretary
I think the best way I have found to ‘convince’ people is by completely dropping the mindset of ‘convincing’ them at all, I just try to live following what I feel is correct and hope they take notice. I feel it is correct to tell family members how it makes me feel ill when they employ stereotypes or racist jokes as a form of social lubricant or posturing for a supposedly higher social position– “I might have a GED, be stressed about how my life is, and worried that my child is not doing well in school, but at least we’re not like X group.”
I save theoretical discussions about institutionalized racism for people like my father, or friends of mine who actually have a vested interest in the subject. It’s a question of taking everyone where they ARE, and not where you THINK they SHOULD be. I try to stay away from the idea of convincing and just present a convincing example to others as to why an anti-racist point of view makes the most sense for everybody involved.
I often find myself straddling borders between what feel like three worlds– a white world, a black world, and a latino world. These are the three main groups of people I interact with on a daily basis, through working as a Spanish interpreter, being married to a Spanish-only speaker, being from a white family, and being friends with black coworkers. I field derogatory comments from all angles about every other group, and then of course have my own prejudices and issues to deal with as well. I try to inform people without beating them over the head with it, although I’ll be the first to admit that if something seems overt enough, I will overtly call them on it.
@Amanda–thanks so much for engaging directly with me.
@jvansteppes: I agree with your question about why labor movements haven’t been successful in forging solidarity using class analysis.
@ Everyone: I suspect that the reason the “convincing” hasn’t gained more traction is…okay, let me put this idea out there, since it’s been kicking around my head for a while now and has been kicking furiously since being on this thread…
Is there another way that we, as people concerned with ending racism, can look at how racism functions for those who continue to believe, espouse, and act on it all of its various ways? To me, racism—using Carmen’s definition as being “a system that benefits whites at the expense of people of color”–functions like a fundamentalist religion. And I’m not using “fundamentalist” to suggest that people who believe in racism are beyond reason or a change of thought and heart–to use religious terms, “conversions” happen all of the time. Racism, like religion, gives people a myth–a sacred story–upon which to form an identity and community (i.e. As Amanda observed about her relatives, “they employ stereotypes or racist jokes as a form of social lubricant or posturing for a supposedly higher social position– “I might have a GED, be stressed about how my life is, and worried that my child is not doing well in school, but at least we’re not like X group.”) as well as society (i.e. US and South Africa). The trick to believing in racism, like fundamentalism, is to have blind faith on the face of it, regardless of internal contradictions, facts, stats, logic, material reality, and personal anecdotes. The hope is, by having this faith, is that the person will be rewarded with, as Amanda said, ”knowing how my skin color de facto implies and gains me enormous privileges in the United States, as well as in many other countries throughout the world.” It demands strict adherence and enforcement; those who don’t adhere (i.e. having friends, spouses, and/or babies) are seen as “traitors” and get their “cards” taken away.
IMO, that’s why, Amanda, while you’re doing great work with your anti-racism, your relatives are telling racist jokes and making you feel like the “black sheep.” That’s why, jvansteppes, labor movements haven’t succeeded in forging lasting alliances with white workers and workers of color. That’s why it’s hard, Carmen—but not impossible–to convince the people who benefit from racism to change the system. But I also think that’s why, drydock, Tim Wise is a very successful white anti-racist activist because he’s able to grasp that concept of race-as-fundamentalist-religion.
How do we convince those who benefit to change? Though I really love the ideas about using class analysis (critique notwithstanding) and for white anti-racist activists “forming a positive white racial identity around the legacy of white anti-racism and forming social bonds with other white anti-racists,” I’m personally drawn to what impossibletospell wrote, namely the idea and argument that by doing harm to people of color through by clinging to racism and moving through this world with that mindset, white people lessen themselves. By all of us being lessened, the US is lessened. In other words, turn racism’s main tenet, “whiteness is the best at all cost” and turn it on its head. Then get into the class analysis and the logic and the personal anecdotes and the facts and stats.
Sorry this comment is so long….
There is an interesting parallel between Racism and Misogyny. Both are forms of discrimination: Racism is based on the belief that one’s own ethnicity is superior to all the other and Misogyny is based on the belief that men are superior to women.
The thing that most people overlook is that being non-racist or being non-mysogynistic CAN NEVER BE a “self-awarded” title. Saying “I’m not racist because I married a colour woman” is exactly like saying “I’m not a macho because I married a woman”. Either title MUST be aknowledged by a majority of the offended part to be true. So as a man, I cannot claim not being a macho unless it is confirmed by a fair share of the other gender. Similarly, one can only be deemed not racist only if it is widely aknowledged by a majority of people from other ethnicity.
This is why most people are oblivious to discussion about racism or mysoginy: they are convinced to be non-discriminating and never allow to challenge that. Like Torontonian I had an aquaintance to whom I unsuccessfully tried to explain why some of her comments where racists.
What I find odd is that people who are themselves being discriminated on a particular ground almost always discriminate other groups. For example, being discriminated because of their gender rarely make women more sensible to racism than men. Similarly: men discriminated for their skin colour can still be offending to women.
I really appreciate the willingness of Remorse & stupid white person. I think part of the solution simply lies in trying to put oneself in the offended person’s shoes. They probably found a remark offensive because at the core it implied that they were inferior. As a person with African ancestry I’d love to help, so either Remorse or stupid white person, if you’d like to chat off this blog. Feel free to contact me.
For more information:
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of New Demographic, a diversity education firm. Her perspectives on race and diversity have been featured on CNN, MSNBC, NPR, USA Today, and The New York Times.
How Whites benefit from fighting White privilege #1: Self-Esteem « Restructure! on 13 May 2008 at 8:44 pm
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