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1. Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Great post on fat and race on 25 Mar 2008 at 3:13 am

   […] tip: Racialicious, which also quotes this great post by Fillyjonk: …As people who are interested in social […]

2. Body Impolitic - Blog Archive - » People of Color and Fat Acceptance: What Needs to Happen and Why - Laurie Toby Edison: Photographer on 26 Mar 2008 at 5:49 pm

   […] piece has already gotten a lot of commentary, at Racialicious, at Shapely Prose, and from our regular commenter […]

Comments

1. Andre wrote:

   Hmm, I’ve read alittle about this, on your blog, but honestly, relating to the black experience, fat has always been praised. Big women have always been praised for their extra layers of fat, because anorexic girls aren’t the thing in the black community. Although this is not shared by all black folk, for most of my experiences, as long as your thick (well proportioned, instead of just a big blob), then you pretty much pass. It’s the popular media that like anorexic girls.

   Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 1:45 pm ¶

2. Tara wrote:

   Tara, the original author, here. I feel like I should be wearing a tiara or something!

   You know, that post had been brewing in me for a really long time, and I have to say that (predictable) ignorant, ill-informed comments and reactions aside, I was really really heartened by hearing all the WOC and allies speaking up and affirming that what I wrote was not just about me and my experience, but that they too felt that the FA movement can be a really alienating place for us POC who really want to talk about fat in our analyses of oppression.

   Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 1:51 pm ¶

3. Black Canseco wrote:

   Fat Acceptance… Just what MLK, Jr was fighting for–so chubby white women could avoid lynchings,
   michelin men being burned in effegies on front lawns, etc.

   Fat is beautiful. Just what my family who ran like hell to get away from the lynch mobs in Mississippi was praying for–the rights of fat white people to feel good about themselves.

   I’m sorry, but weighing 300-400lb isn’t a civil right, it’s a health crisis. While there’s no such thing as “too much melanin” there is a such thing as “too fat”.

   If you take up two seats on an airplane, you take up two seats and you should pay for them. That’s not discrimination, that’s requesting that you pay for what you use.

   There’s a difference between the chubby 6 year old getting teased and somebody beating up, continually harrassed or being verbally/physically abused based on their weight.

   The Fat Acceptance Movement, an ironic term if their ever was one just doesn’t get it. You don’t need legislation for this one. you don’t need a movement for this one.

   I swear if I see one more 350lb white woman on MSNBC or FOX or Oprah talking about discrimination and disenfranchisement I’m gonna hurl.

   Look, I get that being fat sucks. I get that most fat people don’t choose to be fat. I get that being fat is not considered sexy or even cool by most folks in society. But it’s still not a civil rights movement. You’re not disenfranchised because your metabolism is too slow, or because you didn’t get the greatest genes or because you don’t understand portion control.

   I get it. Health and weight are a problem for a good 80% of americans. Hell, i need to lose a few pounds myself. But as a black male i can assure you that my portruding gut is not why i get pulled over by cops, get called the n-word or any other indignities that I deal with regularly.

   And I’m not marching on D.C. just so the fat white chicks, most of whom, proudly yell, “being fat is just like being black” can feel sexy and empowered.

   Try talking to a black women who’s told by every aspect of modern society that unless her name is Oprah or Halle, she’ll never be “feminine” enough no matter how big, small, curvy, thin, etc she gets.

   Far as I’m concerned the biggest reason the fat movement is so white is the same as why the feminist movement is—both groups believe they’re deprived of their humanity on some level; but women of color–well they ain’t human enough to count, so they don’t. Unless there’s something in it for white women, hence the co-option of mainstream-friendly civil rights leaders like MLK, Jr.

   Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 1:52 pm ¶

4. Latoya Peterson wrote:

   Andre -

   See, that’s kind of deceptive. I can only speak for the black community, and yes, many black men do place emphasis on “thickness.”

   But thickness does not equal fat. The covers of the major black men’s magazines will attest to that. While the black beauty ideal is not predicated on being a size 0-4, there are still acceptable standards of thickness, and while a little extra fat is considered ok in the grand scheme of things, thickness requires fat in the right places - and an expectation to keep the rest of your body proportionate.

   Also, heaven forbid you are one of the naturally thin black women that I have mentioned in previous posts. That is a whole other post in itself. Can you imagine having white men praise your thinness, but black men dissing you because you lack curves? Cultural mindfuck.

   And again, if your curves aren’t in the right places, people still feel like they can just say whatever - hence the reason why WoC head to FA.

   Finally - remember, PoC is not a stand in for black. Tara, as I made mention in the post, is Asian. The “thickness” thing tends to be attributed to black and latino men.

   Tara -

   Welcome, and you should be wearing one!

   I finally read all 81 comments and I must say I was really impressed by the level of racial discourse. There were obviously some people who didn’t get it but the people who did added value like no other conversation I have seen. I may even do another post just on the comments.

   Brava to you and your commenters.

   Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 2:00 pm ¶

5. Cynthia wrote:

   I think in the case of body acceptance, Asians don’t really fit into the non-white/people of color category for some reason.

   This is how I see it. Bare in mind, I’m a very petite girl in every sense, so it’s probably a little biased: In the case of Tara, the larger Asian woman is probably going to face more discrimination than someone who is smaller, because we as a society (both Asian and non-Asian) tend to think that Asians are smaller. We “EXPECT” Asian women to be around 5′3″ and a size 2 or 4. I’m sure eating disorders are much more rampant in the communities than we’d like to think or are reported because once again, Asian women are EXPECTED to be small.

   As for food access, I don’t know if many Asian communities really have a problem finding nutritious and fresh products. Chinatown grocery stores always seem to have wonderful produce and more and more Asian supermarkets like T&T are popping up, some in predominantly Asian areas and some not (the downtown Toronto location has lots of non-Asian (mostly white) clientele).

   Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 2:12 pm ¶

6. Latoya Peterson wrote:

   BC -

   Good points. Let me address a few things:

   1. For a lot of us PoCs - including some who commented on Tara’s article - we understand civil rights on a very intimate level. This is why it grates on us so much when some white fat activists try to compare their struggle to black civil rights. I was even considering doing a post on this on because I found that shit so offensive - again, no one has died by the hands of another in a hate crime for simply being fat. However,

   2. The more I read about FA the more I understand why they are here. I don’t agree with some of the premises of the movement, and I don’t have to - no one said I have to join. But I have learned that:

   a. People are denied adequate medical care because they are fat. You hear a lot about obsesity taxing the medical system, but less about what fat patients experience trying to get care. Apparently, there was a fat patient who tried to get screened for their constant migraines. The doctor kept telling the patient to lose weight to cure the headaches. Turns out the patient had a brain tumor.

   There is a whole blog full of stories like that. I’ll have to look up the link, but I think it’s called Do No Harm.

   b. There was legislation introduced in Missouri (I think) to stop the obese from eating at restaurants.

   c. Health insurance companies gouge the shit out of you. This I experience personally. As a person who has a high weight, but great distribution, most people do not identify me as fat. (Thank heaven for thickness). However, when I had to switch into private health insurance from my employer plan, I got hit with a fat tax. Apparently, they calculated my BMI at 30.9% which is .9% over their threshhold and they now charge me an additional $50 a month for coverage. Just because.

   Now, if I was a skinny cokehead with persistent sinus problems, that would be cool. But oh no - a healthy person who doesn’t fit that BMI bullshit? Tax her! I’m salty as hell, but too lazy to start my own class action suit.

   d. There are a lot of issues with being fat that no one tells you about. Like I said, undercover fat person that I am, I went to get a new perscription for birth control. My doc wrote it out, no problem and I went to the in house pharmacist to get a pill pack until my prescription was received by my pharmacy.

   No one said shit to me. But the girl behind me? Oh, they read her the riot act! Why? Because she *looked* fat. Since she looked fat, she was warned that birth control pills are LESS EFFECTIVE if you are over 200 lbs. Then they asked her to give her weight and prescribed a diet plan in the clinic.

   Now, I had that girl by 30 lbs. No one told me shit. And if I didn’t already know that certain birth control is less effective, I might have found myself up the stick. So there are health risks that need to be disclosed AND the fact that people’s idea of fat varies. Half of this hysteria is perception and not knowing what fat looks like from person to person.

   So while I can understand you not feeling Fat Acceptance, they do have a point.

   Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 2:28 pm ¶

7. Lillian wrote:

   As a white woman involved with a big man of color, I can tell you that the people call the police many times just for him being in their neighborhood. He was accused of something awful just because he took his ‘white’ autistic son to the bathroom. He has people watching him a lot of the time. The cops follow him and charge him for stuff for the crime of having a dark skin tone.

   Racism does exist. My honey works in the computer field. People hear his voice on the phone and think he’s white and when they see that he’s black they suddenly act different toward him. I tell him that people fear him because he’s a black intellectual but he says that is irrational and tells me that has to be another reason.

   Yes, it’s irrational, but it doesn’t make it less true. There are many people out there that are uncomfortable with an intelligent black man. More than uncomfortable, terrified. And he has to live with it everyday.

   Racism exists. He doesn’t see why the amount of melanin should make people distrust him and in cases even hate him. The color of his skin should be as meaningless as the color of my eyes.

   Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 3:46 pm ¶

8. deleahrium wrote:

   The excerpt from Fillyjonk’s post that you’ve shared is so well-put. I love it.

   Comment #5, on the other hand, is just one more example of the inexistent “racist” - it the argument presented again and again that “of course racism still exists, but how dare you call ME a racist?”

   I wish certain people would quit trying to defend themselves and just open their minds to the possibility that they don’t know everything, that they don’t have it all figured out. AND that this very discourse is how we’re going to get it figured out so silencing those of us that articulate a challenge/question/answer is NOT helpful.

   Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 4:53 pm ¶

9. Morgan wrote:

   BC-
   for sure racism exists and white activists can often be blind to the needs of others (intentionally or otherwise), but why does that mean “somebody beating up, continually harassed or being verbally/physically abused based on their weight” cannot be? why does one cancel out the other? i can tell countless stories of fatphobic-issues causing women to stay in violent, abusive relationships.

   can’t both racism AND fatphobia be a problem?

   Morgan

   Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 4:54 pm ¶

10. meownette wrote:

    Latoya, as an “undercover fat person” do you identify as fat? What I mean is, is that the term you use to describe your body type? As a woman of rather considerable heft who does not know my weight or pants size (don’t wear em) but who intuits that I am bigger than “average,” I am at a loss as to what to call myself. I don’t necessarily want to piggyback the fat acceptance movement since I’m not obese, per se, and the points you addressed in comment #6 don’t pertain to me for the most part…just a random musing.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 5:23 pm ¶

11. withoutscene wrote:

    BC-
    Is your problem with the use of the term “civil rights movement” or does it stem from the fact that you don’t believe there is institutionalized discrimination against fat people which precludes their rights, or both.

    I’m genuinely curious.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 5:31 pm ¶

12. Black Canseco wrote:

    fatphobia just seems like such a soft, made up word. I don’t know anyone whose afraid of fat people or fatness.

    I come from a lowerlcass working black neighborhoods where people were every shade within the black spectrum, and every shape. The “thick” girls got called “thick”. And there were lots of them. And the fat people got called fat. because there’s something unhealthy about not being able to move 5 feet without breathing heavy from exhaustion.

    I never heard any of those people say, “you need to accept fatness”. The discussions were alway in the context of yeah i do need to lose wieght–i’m just not moving like i used to.”

    now make no mistake, we didn’t give a pass to the smart-mouths who thought anyone over 110lb was a little piglet in training.

    Look, it’s one thing—as Latoya talked about—to not fit into some arbitrary BMI or some magazine’s ideal, but short of getting forklifted out of your house for a Springer episode, we gotta agree that some people are just fat and that fat ain’t always a good thing.
    Melanin is not gonna clog up my arteries and cause a stroke when i’m 37. But if i’m not careful, fat will.

    Can we agree on that, or is that just me being insensitive?

    Fat is not a culture. Fat not an ethnicity. Fat is not a heritage. Fat is not a nationality. Fat is not a gender. Obesity is not a language. We gotta stop treating fat like something that needs to be cherished and praised no matter what.

    And no, I’m not talking about being a size 7 or a size 14, even… I’m ll for thick and chubby and just healthy. But at some point, we gotta call things for what they are.

    Everybody can’t be muscled up or slim. Nor should we expect that. But to say that even when you choose not to take care of your body inside and out resulting in being way bigger than even you know you should be and that everyone else should bust out I Have A Dream remix in your honor is just nuts.

    And to that end, if someone doesn’t find heavyset or larger body types to be sexy or desirable, they’re not necessarily bigots.

    However, I think there’s a real correlation between economic class and access to healthcare, healthy food options which can impact weight. I think that’s more important than pushing FA as a solution.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 6:12 pm ¶

13. Black Canseco wrote:

    i have no issue with “fat” or “obese”… i think that depending on how big you get, it’s a health hazard. not for anyone else but for you. When you have a condition that’s a health hazard, you don’t tell everyone else to be nice to you and embrace it. You do what you can to change so you can live a better life.

    I don’t understand how being 50, 100lbs overweight moves from being a personal health issue into a civil rights issue?

    personally, I’ve had family members and family friends murdered in the civil rights movement and it belittles what the movement’s about when it gets reduced to everyone going, “hey i’m not as well-liked as i think i should be so i’m gonna march like they did.”

    It just makes civil rights a joke when people can’t draw a line between discrimination/disenfranchisement and plain ol hurt feelings/personal preferences.

    But again, fat isn’t hair color, either. If a family member who was really overweight came up to me and said their biggest problem isn’t their high cholesterol and blood pressure or sore joints, but me encouraging them to drop a couple pounds in order to have a higher quality of life, then I’d tell them to clean their ears out and get some help.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 6:25 pm ¶

14. Black Canseco wrote:

    Can someone explain exactly which “rights” being overweight deprives one of, either historically or currently? Is there something that overweight people are not allowed to do by others’ because they’re overweight?

    by the way: I’m 6′1… I want to be a power forward in the NBA, but I can’t get any team to take me seriously enough to get a tryout; is that discrimination on their parts or simply common sense?

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 6:31 pm ¶

15. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Meownette -

    Short answer: I identify as myself.

    Long answer: Weight and perception are strange things. One - I never identified as thin or fat high school/early college. I have always been fairly large in build - I have size 11 feet, I’m 5″7 and a half, and I’m built like an hourglass. So, even at my best level of fitness (because for me, level of fitness correlates directly with fat/weight), when I was rocking abs and sculpted everything, I was a size 10-12.

    Blame it on the booty. So thin wasn’t really a concept that I understood or strove toward. At the same time, I am large. People call me plus, and that is fair as I wear plus sized pants now. I’ve been called chubby once or twice, but never fat - nor have I heard any fat epithets hurled my way. I prefer curvy, but that’s more a nod to my shape than my weight.

    Generally, I’m happy to let people describe me as they see fit. The results tend to be amusing…everything from “maybe a little plus” to “volumptuous” to “Toya sized” has popped up.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 6:38 pm ¶

16. La - msviswan wrote:

    Morgan, you made a good point. I also agree with the things Black Canseco says, especially when they said…

    “I’m sorry, but weighing 300-400lb isn’t a civil right, it’s a health crisis. While there’s no such thing as “too much melanin” there is a such thing as “too fat”.

    I do think racism is a profoundly bigger issue than “fatphobia”. However, you also made points about one may not have to cancel out the other (in some situations).

    Recently I got into some ruckus, with another black female blog owner who encourages black females to date IR. She was basically embarrassed by other black females who dared to be “fat” and wanted to date white men, which would “scare” them away from all black women all together. She didn’t say it that way, it was hidden under the “health concern”, but many knew better.

    I tried to defend these black women, but I was hit with a false slanderous brandishing, and I was also accused of being “fat” myself (which I’m not, but could lose some pounds). What a nightmare, never again. I guess it’s only “fat” people who would have a problem with fatphobia cruelty to others.

    I learned a lesson from this. Fatphobia is a serious discrimination, and there are people in all race who will fight to for the “right” to be able to always ridicule, humiliate, and oppress people who are overweight or obese, even if that person shares thier same race. I guess it goes back to that old ideology…

    I can see your problem to make fun of you, because you can’t see mine. Sad.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 6:43 pm ¶

17. yazikus wrote:

    I have a thought, not a point or argument really, about the whole ‘fat tax’ that health insurance providers tack on. I don’t think they only discriminate based on weight, I think they are profiteering any way possible, whether it be right or wrong. One example would be (and I know how unpopular this is, point in case) smokers. They aren’t even considered in alot of cases. It is socially acceptable to to yell things, gesture, and make judgements publicly at someone if they are smoking….
    All of what you said was true, but sometimes people will take advantage of anything and create a predjudice.
    I wonder, if we could get over race, sexism, classism, and accept people of all sizes and creeds, would the world be a better place? I’d like to think so, but I have an idea that we would just come up with more things to discrimate against.
    Sorry if that was rambling and made no sense.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 6:51 pm ¶

18. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Yazikus -

    They do discriminate based on weight and past health status. So, with the example you reference, smokers can be denied health coverage due to risky behavior. (And if they calculated my BMI at over 35 they would have denied coverage outright).

    However, smoking has been proven to cause certain issues, like emphysema or lung cancer.

    With obesity, there is a higher change of developing certain problems, but it is not a guarantee. In fact, research (including a study quoted in this months Women’s Health) has suggested that fat people who are fit are a much smaller health risk than thin people who are not fit.

    So, with me, I’ve been to three different doctors who have run me through the paces with tests and fitness assessments and all that. While I am not where I want to be, the unanimous verdict is that I am completely healthy - even with the excess weight.

    So why am I paying more?

    Eventually, I’ll get some written reports from my primary care physician and contest this fat tax they are charging me. However, since I am having enough problems trying to get them to honor my deductibles, I’m not holding my breath.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 7:00 pm ¶

19. yazikus wrote:

    Latoya-

    Thank you for the thoughtful answer, I meant in no way that the way bigger people are discriminated against is okay.
    I guess I’m not really sure where I was going with that except that people are just looking for ways to be superior… (oversimplified I know).

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 7:06 pm ¶

20. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Yazikus - No, I gotcha. Kind of like that old Dr. Seuss story about the Star Bellied Sneetches.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sneetches_and_Other_Stories#.22The_Sneetches.22

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 7:09 pm ¶

21. yazikus wrote:

    Exactement =)

    On another note, I’ve really enjoyed reading your articles and the discussions that follow. I am learning alot and greatly appreciate it.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 7:11 pm ¶

22. NancyP wrote:

    What Latoya said. There are problems with insurance, with attitudes of health care providers, with attitudes of potential employers. This is real. The magnitude of prejudice is on the whole smaller (insurance aside) if the BMI >30 person presents as a solidly middle class type, dressing well and having a confident but understated attitude. In other words - class is huge in US attitudes toward obesity (”you can never be too rich or too thin”). But for people to talk about fat as “THE last acceptable prejudice” - what a load of B.S., and where’s their common sense?

    On the “appropriation” front, I never saw what the big deal was in making adaptations - so what if someone makes a caftan with embroidery around the neck? As long as it isn’t African-typical fabric patterns and colors, it’s just a big overshirt with a keyhole head hole. If someone wants to look “authentic” and is willing to thus make a fool of themselves, well, it’s a free country, laugh at them.

    I am all for getting BMI > 30 folk on Am. Diabetic Association diets. Healthy food, avoiding processed foods and sugar and excess fats. Yes, it is very true that healthy food often costs more to get to satiety than cheap food, and decent fresh food can be hard to find in poor neighborhoods. But Mexico is an example of a currently obese country which became so through the use of sugar-containing soda pop - the traditional foods are filling and healthy and cheap.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 8:34 pm ¶

23. Paul wrote:

    As far as I know fat folks weren’t enslaved or exterminated or stoned or forced into debt peonage. Nor were their towns brunt or their children lynched or their culture destroyed. Fat people are discriminated against because they CHOOSE to be fat.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 8:52 pm ¶

24. Cynthia C wrote:

    deleahrium said: Comment #5, on the other hand, is just one more example of the inexistent “racist” - it the argument presented again and again that “of course racism still exists, but how dare you call ME a racist?”

    I guess you’ve never seen weight loss ads in Asian magazines. I’ve seen before pictures where the woman claims to be around 5′3″ or 5′4″ and between 125 lb and 130 lb. Not exactly extremely overweight, just above the “ideal” for a smaller frame of that height. The woman usually doesn’t even LOOK that fat. This North America, this is usually the AFTER picture.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 9:04 pm ¶

25. Cynthia C wrote:

    ^^^ pressed post too quickly. Should say IN North America.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 9:04 pm ¶

26. Ampersand wrote:

    Wonderful post. But the comments section here - mainly B.C.’s comments — make me want to scream in frustration.

    Fat Acceptance… Just what MLK, Jr was fighting for–so chubby white women could avoid lynchings,
    michelin men being burned in effegies on front lawns, etc.

    Fat is beautiful. Just what my family who ran like hell to get away from the lynch mobs in Mississippi was praying for–the rights of fat white people to feel good about themselves.

    It’s true that no one has been lynched for being fat (although people have died due to lack of good medical care for fat people, as Latoyla points out in comment #6). It’s also true that anyone who says “fat rights is just like the black civil rights movement!” is being an idiot.

    But so what? Being Black is not like being fat is not like being female is not like being queer is not like being disabled is not like being Asian is not like being trans is not like being poor is not like being…

    No marginalized group is exactly like any other marginalized group. No one’s experiences are interchangable. But the legitimacy of fat advocate’s complaints is not dependent on whether or not we can show that our experiences are exactly like the black experience, or the lesbian experience, etc..

    It’s about justice. The reason fat advocates are forming a movement is that we think it’s unjust to be denied good medical care because we’re fat; we think it’s unjust that we can get fired for being fat; we think it’s unjust that we face job and wage discrimination because we’re fat; we think it’s unjust that we can be charged more for basic services (like insurance) because we’re fat; it’s unjust that people glance at us and assume that we’re lazy and care nothing for ourselves; and yes, although you’ll sneer at this as “the right to feel good,” it’s unjust that fat people are taught from childhood to think of themselves as deficient, wrong, and disgusting.

    It’s not unjust because it’s just like facing lynch mobs — obviously it’s not the same. It’s unjust because it’s wrong. It’s unjust because we’re human and don’t deserve to be treated as second-class people because of the shape of our bodies.

    That — not the claim that being fat is at all like being black — is the basis of what fat advocates are fighting about.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 10:21 pm ¶

27. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Recently I got into some ruckus, with another black female blog owner who encourages black females to date IR. She was basically embarrassed by other black females who dared to be “fat” and wanted to date white men, which would “scare” them away from all black women all together. She didn’t say it that way, it was hidden under the “health concern”, but many knew better.”

    Shakes head… I know exactly the kerfluffle you’re referencing… it’s screwed up, what she did to your E-mail. I had an incident like that with one of her acolytes, where personal information that I disclosed to said acolyte in private was made very public with some fine lies tacked on for good measure to discredit me. “Health concern” would be believeable if people found skinny people with unhealthy habits just as reprehensible and socially “punished” them for it as often, but they don’t… even when evidence of those habits is readily apparent. Hell, there was an article in… I think Cosmo, where this woman related the tale of how much positive attention she recieved from men when she lost weight….. as a result of a tapeworm infestation. America should just be honest with itself…. health concerns and healthy habits take a backseat to the appearance of a sexually desirable body.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 10:37 pm ¶

28. Ampersand wrote:

    Another thing that’s driving me nuts in this thread is the constant assumption that fat people don’t eat well and exercise.

    Some fat people don’t eat well and exercise. Some do. Some thin people don’t eat well and exercise. Some do. You can’t tell what someone eats, or how much they exercise, by glancing at their waistline.

    Nancy wrote:

    I am all for getting BMI > 30 folk on Am. Diabetic Association diets.

    1) Why do you assume it’s your business what other people’s BMIs are and how those with high BMIs eat?

    2) It’s anti-fat ideology that says that all fat people could stop being fat people if they just ate right and exercised. However, there’s no evidence to support that belief.

    * * *

    The assumption that fat people “choose not to take care of your body” is hard to respond to. There are two things to consider.

    First of all, it’s not true. There are fat people who work out on a treadmill for 45 minutes every day; there are thin people who never leave the sofa.

    Second of all, though, who cares? If a fat person is lazy and indolent, that doesn’t make the way fat people are treated in this society justified in any way. Being treated decently shouldn’t be contingent on whether or not you “choose to take care of your body.”

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 10:43 pm ¶

29. Black Canseco wrote:

    It’s interesting is the disparity between acceptance of plus-sized models; Emma is a “supermodel” while Tocarra (black) is just “a big gal”. We loved Anna Nicole, Marilyn Monroe and Jane Russell, etc for their “voluptuous” figures” but it’s difficult to find parallels for black women–that is, once you discount black men in dresses playing big momma roles.

    Maybe Pam Grier, but I don’t recall many outside the black community embracing Pam Grier in her day; maybe now with the success of L Word, but it’s doubtful.

    On the acting front, We see Kate Winslet as “brave” for giving “bigger actresses” a role model; even kathy Bates was hailed for being unapologetic with her size. Same for Cameron Mandheim(?)…

    but it seems like larger black female actresses get stuck between “ghetto booties” + “stripper bodies” and big-momma-in-training-wheels compliments.

    there’s no real sense of being beautiful if you’re a bigger black woman. it’s almost hand-in-hand with being “strong” and “having attitude”.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 10:46 pm ¶

30. Black Canseco wrote:

    Ampersand,

    I’m all for equal treatment for all. but lets be real, physical traits don’t entitle you acceptance. At best, you shouldn’t be punished or disenfranchised for it, but “accepted”. Hey i shave my head–some people don’t accept that. It’s their loss, i guess. but bald guys don’t need a movement.

    I’m not talking about ostricizing people; but there’s something really dangerous about someone who’s in a physical state that’s destrimental to their own liefspan telling everyone else to “accept” them as if we’re talking about ethnicity or faith.

    If i care about someone, why wouldn’t i want them to enjoy a better quality of life? Why would i go along with their “take me as i am” stance when i know that they could better?

    And i’m not talking about the person whose 25lbs overweight or simply has a different body type from the mainstream beauty standard. I’m talking about people who are getting up each day and demanding that society pretend that being fat is something other than a health problem.

    And is it discrimination for a 400lb man to pay more for health insurance than a 190lb man? Sure, but it’s usually based on the same reasoning that has smokers paying higher rates than non-smokers–they don’t live as long and when they require treatment its gonna be more expensive than the average patient. it’s the same reason why 15-year old drivers paying more than 35 year old drivers. it’s not without thought.

    does it get abused? yeah. but you’re advocating PC’ness and just blind embracement of all things, including that which is unhealthy.

    It’s not an injustice that fat adults were taught to hate themselves–it’s bad parenting in many cases that has parents insulting their kids. It’s also bad parenting that has grown adults feeding their 6 year olds McDonald’s when they can afford to do better and know better.

    genuine discrimination based on hatred, fear, disrespect is one thing. But people assuming you can’t physically do something because you physically don’t seem capable of it isn’t grounds for a movement. It just means you prove them wrong.

    when somebody assumes i can’t do something because i’m black, i prove them wrong. when someone tries to stop me from doing it because i’m black that’s another story.

    for me to take this serious as a movement someone’s got to convince me of 3 things: (1) society is trying to deprive fat people of the same quality of life enjoyed by everyone else simply because they’re fat (2) the FAM is about all fat people not just the white ones (3) Those within the FAM are doing what every group is asked to do–take responsibility for the problems within the group that can be fixed within. Exercise, diet, personal health shouldn’t be at odds with FAM.

    if i see those 3 things, then you’ve got something. otherwise it’s just people complaining, which does a disservice to other movements which they’re aligning themselves with.

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 11:26 pm ¶

31. Fillyjonk wrote:

    if i see those 3 things, then you’ve got something.

    Just out of curiosity — have you looked? Or are you just, you know, guessing?

    Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 11:50 pm ¶

32. Shannon wrote:

    BC-
    (1) society is trying to deprive fat people of the same quality of life enjoyed by everyone else simply because they’re fat

    Would being denied proper health care fit into that category? Is it ok to be misdiagnosed, mistreated etc simply on the basis of being fat? Should fat people just be quiet and take it? Not go to the doctor? It’s very common that fat people are being denied good health care as you can see here http://fathealth.wordpress.com/ There are a lot of stories from people there who have had these things happen simply because people are fat.

    Simply because people are fat they are ridiculed, maligned, portrayed inappropriately in the media and most FA people I know want the same thing any one else in any other civil rights movement, to be treated fairly and not be discriminated against.

    (2) the FAM is about all fat people not just the white ones

    I am not white. I have been involved in FA in various ways for years. Tara (the author of the post at Fatshionista) is not white, there are quite a few members of other online fat related communites I am on who are not white. I think it is extremely unfair of you to base the idea that it’s all about the white ones.

    Also if you do a simple google search you can find all sorts of news stories, “health” stories, personal stories about fat discrimination and the experience of fat people. I won’t do it for you but it’s out there if you want to see it. I would also encourage you to read some of the blogs relating to FA, the views and perspectives are probably more varied than you might think.

    3.Those within the FAM are doing what every group is asked to do–take responsibility for the problems within the group that can be fixed within. Exercise, diet, personal health shouldn’t be at odds with FAM.

    If you think that no one in the FA movement exercises or eats well you are very mistaken. There are fat athletes, fat triathletes, many people practice what’s called HAES http://www.bodypositive.com/HAES.htm. There are many communities online specifically made up of fat people who are very into their health. There are people who have active eating disorders and are recovering from eating disorders, people who are not ill or otherwise incapacitated, disabled people all kinds of people in all different states of health.

    That said health is not a moral imperative. Nor should how someone takes care of their body decide whether or not they are in the FA movement. Part of the acceptance movement means that we fat people get autonomy over our health without the comment of the public.

    Speaking of PC’ness it’s not about being PC. At least not to me. To me personally it’s about having the right to live my life as I see fit, without having to worry about if I am going to lose my job because I don’t fit an arbitrary standard, because I may not look healthy. I want the right to get adequate medical care whatever weight I may be at.

    Your last statement BC is in a nutshell the same thing people say about every movement for any civil rights.

    Why is it so difficult to believe that the experience of other people sucks and that yes, they want that to change. I find it sad and disheartening that desire for equality can still be so easily dismissed for some people as just whining.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 12:23 am ¶

33. Ampersand wrote:

    I’m not talking about ostricizing people; but there’s something really dangerous about someone who’s in a physical state that’s destrimental to their own liefspan telling everyone else to “accept” them as if we’re talking about ethnicity or faith.

    First of all, I don’t think it’s true, for any but the most super-super-obese people, that being fat is detrimental to lifespans. For fat black women, in particular, those who are fat live longer on average than those who are “normal” weight or those who are thin.

    Secondly, even if it were true that fat people would live a few years longer if they were thin, so what? That doesn’t matter unless there’s a reliable, healthy, long-term way of turning fat people into non-fat people, and there isn’t.

    Third, even if you were right about that stuff — and you’re dead wrong — you’d still be wrong, because unjust treatment doesn’t suddenly become okay just because someone has failed to live up to your expectations of optimal health.

    Suppose it’s true that Mary Doe could live 67 years, instead of 64, if she lost weight, which she could do. How does that make it okay that fat women like Mary, on average, get paid less than non-fat women? How does that make it okay that Mary’s doctor is so focused on Mary’s weight that Mary’s migraines aren’t properly treated?

    Finally, as I’ve already argued, injustice against fat people doesn’t have to be like injustice against “ethnicity or faith” for it to be valid to object to the injustice.

    It occurs to me that you really don’t agree with the quote at the bottom of the opening post:

    But even if this isn’t a place where every oppression is equally addressed (which I don’t think anyone expects or even really needs), it’s really crucial that it be a place where every oppression is considered and important. That means that we do not minimize or dismiss people’s concerns. Right now, it means we listen to Tara when she talks about the things that hurt or alienate her; that we believe that these things are alienating; that we take this into account in the future; and that we understand that this awareness is not an unfair onus, but part of the greater work of social activism.

    For you, that passage is a one-way street, isn’t it? You want fat activists to take racism seriously, including being open to the possibility that the FA movement has racism issues it has to address — and you’re totally right about that.

    But on this thread, you’ve done nothing but minimize and dismiss fat activists’ concerns. You consider your own oppression important; but you mock fat people talking about their own oppression. You certainly don’t seem, for even a second, to be willing to question the rightness of your own beliefs about fat and fat people.

    Am I wrong in thinking you disagree with the passage from the original post I just quoted?

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 12:41 am ¶

34. Roxie wrote:

    BC, what’s your problem? Have you not seen the references to problems fat people have in getting adequate medical care? Have you not seen the examples of the things society will deny and try to take from for being fat? Are you reading these posts at all?

    B/c it’s really coming off that you’re reading what you want to see and will continue to think the FAM is worthless cause it’s not like any other oppression that YOU have known (thus, it can’t be real!).

    Or

    You hide behind the health aspects.
    I’m sure everyone here can count at least one person they know who is thin and eats junk food and lays around all day long, yet they never gain weight.

    Why is it that the inverse of such CANNOT be true?

    Or is that the fat ppl who aren’t as active and healthy eating as YOU find acceptable are the “bad” fatties?

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 4:23 am ¶

35. angryyoungwoman wrote:

    I definately think racism is a bigger problem than sizism (?), and for anyone who says “fat is the last acceptable oppression,” I beg you to come navigate disability services at my college for me–but I will say that having strangers think you’re body is ANY of their concern is more than annoying.

    I’ve been a very small person almost all my life (5 feet even, usually between 90-95 lbs), but a few years back I was on an epilepsy medication that made me gain a lot of weight. Suddenly, everyone (teachers, family, friends, EVERYONE) thought it was their business to tell me that I needed to go on a diet. For one thing, I didn’t “choose to be fat,” as certain commenters here have implied. For another, whose business would it be if I had? The comments people made to me were so devastating, I ended up with an eating disorder (much more damaging than a few extra pounds ever were).

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 4:58 am ¶

36. DivergentDana wrote:

    “We loved Anna Nicole, Marilyn Monroe and Jane Russell, etc for their “voluptuous” figures” but it’s difficult to find parallels for black women–that is, once you discount black men in dresses playing big momma roles.”

    BC, you know good and well that the latter two women were from different eras where standards for the female form were different and they had no black counterparts for obvious reasons. *coughracismcough* Pam Grier was never “plus sized”… she was buxom with a slender body… much more Raquel Welch than Anna Nicole. And as much as I love ANTM, none of Tyra’s girls have made it big (no pun intended) in the fashion industry, black, white or ambiguous. However, the fact that Emme and Kate Dillon seem to have no equivalent black counterparts in plus-sized modeling is telling.

    “On the acting front, We see Kate Winslet as “brave” for giving “bigger actresses” a role model; even kathy Bates was hailed for being unapologetic with her size. Same for Cameron Mandheim(?)…”

    The latter two women are much larger than Kate, and as a result they get more criticism and less work… even though Bates is an Oscar-caliber actress. And you must know that Kate Winslet is the size of a normal, healthy woman… only in Hollywood would she be considered big.

    “there’s no real sense of being beautiful if you’re a bigger black woman. it’s almost hand-in-hand with being “strong” and “having attitude”.”

    Interestingly enough, that may be one of the reasons that studies show that while there’s pay disparities for overweight white women compared to their thinner counterparts, this phenomenon is non-existent for black women…. no one cares if we’re beautiful according to the standard, and a lot of people assume that we’re fat by default. If Queen Latifah and Jennifer Hudson were white women, despite their talents, their phones would not be ringing and the pressure would be on for them to immediately become Laetitia Casta’s size. BC, have you ever seen a white Cover Girl spokesmodel Latifah’s size, because I haven’t.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 5:33 am ¶

37. Celeste wrote:

    I personally know some men who are seriously and distrubingly anti-fat women… for some reason fat men are okay but not the women. It’s not cool to be mean, rude, nasty or pay someone less because they’re fat. Sometimes there’s a medical reason why that person is overweight, the lovely Angie Stone, for example. Is it exactly like racial civil rights movements, no. Are the rights of fat people being violated in many cases, yes.
    On the other hand, I’m a physician and I 100% agree that truly obese people (not people who are fit and large), smokers and other people whose high-risk profiles could be modified by personal habits should pay more for health care. I’m not working for free and all this high tech stuff we use sure as hell ain’t free. That doesn’t mean that doctors should mistreat fat patients. One of my classmates saw a resident grab a lady’s stomach fat and tell her “You need to lose this” while shaking it about. The poor lady thought so little of herself that she didn’t even get mad. No one deserves to be treated like that. On a practical note I don’t think verbal abuse really makes people stop eating, it probably increases the amount of emotional eating.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 8:51 am ¶

38. Paul wrote:

    People around here are missing the point. Being overweight is a choice. After I got done playing college football, I stopped working out and hit alomst 250 on a 5′10″ frame. Then, I started working out again and eating right. That got me back to 200 in about one year. It’s not hard. Cut empty calories and get real exercise, weights and cardio. Fat is not a disability, it’s a lifestyle choice.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 9:07 am ¶

39. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    I’m a fat guy (6 feet tall, 330 lbs in weight, 48 inch waist and I have no idea what my “BMI” is…) and have been since elementary school.

    And I’ve heard it all - I’ve had a million lectures on diet and exercise, I’ve been told how “unhealthy” I am and I’ve had the “willpower” speech given to me a million times too.

    And I HATE going to doctors, because all they want to do is lecture me on how fat I am, and sell me on either highly addictive diet pills or do major abdominal surgery (stomach stapling).

    Now, the crazy thing is, I have a physical job, (I’m a carpenter - I install office furniture and trade show exhibits) and I wouldn’t have lasted as long as I have in this field (where it is very easy to get fired - ESPECIALLY if you’re Black) if I couldn’t do the job.

    I can walk a mile or climb 4 flights of stairs without breathing heavy and I can lift almost as much as I weigh, but I’m presumed to be “unhealthy” just because I’m fat.

    Now, it’s one thing when doctors give me the fat lecture - that’s bad enough (especially if they’ve only known me for 15 minutes and know next to nothing about my actual physical strength and medical history) but when random folks want to “weigh in” with their opinions - that’s where I draw the line!!!

    Here’s some advice for folks - if you see a fat person, he/she KNOWS THEY ARE FAT!! We buy our own clothes and have mirrors in our houses!!! So please, spare us the “health” lecture or your “diet advice” - we’ve already heard it a million times!!!

    If you have an opinion or some advice, do us a favor KEEP IT TO YOURSELF!!!! - because whatever brilliant solution you might have for us has probably been told to us a million times before!!! (act like a New Yorker and “mind your own business”!!!)

    And no, Black Canseco, just because they have tiny seats on airplanes does NOT mean that big people should have to pay more!!!! It means the airlines should put bigger seats in their planes and/or upgrade big passengers!!!

    I will admit, the abuse that fat people suffer is not anywhere close to the impact of racism - but it is a form of bigotry!

    So, folks, just “live and let live”!!!

    Spare us your “health advice” at the end of the day it’s MY body and MY health, not yours, so respect me and my autonomy as a human being and let me deal with it as I see fit!!!

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 9:20 am ¶

40. Cynthia wrote:

    And don’t forget that Marilyn Monroe wasn’t even as big as Anna Nicole. Marilyn’s measurements were 37-23-36 (studio’s claim) and 35-22-35 (dress maker’s claim) according to the official website. Her waist would be about a 0 or 00 by 2008 standards, hips around a 4 or 6. She’d wear an 8 at most by today’s standards, and that’s only because her chest is bigger. Of course, she’s more flabby than most actresses today, but flab was okay back then. If you watch old beach movies, the men weren’t all that toned either.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 9:27 am ¶

41. Fillyjonk wrote:

    Paul, you ARE overweight. Sorry to break it to you, but according to the BMI, which is the measure used to determine things like insurance costs, you’re too fat. And your experience in losing and gaining weight? It isn’t everybody’s. It isn’t even common. (Also, hey, remember when everyone thought being gay was bad because it was a choice? And then they decided that IT DOESN’T FUCKING MATTER BECAUSE YOU GET TO MAKE CHOICES?)

    One of the most common mistakes I see people make, when they discuss fat activism based on an idea they made up when they heard the name instead of doing any reading or research, is that they start saying “well, not FIT fat people, just REALLY fat people” or “not fat people who eat well, just fat people who eat 20 pies” — or, basically, “not GOOD fatties, just BAD fatties.” But the insurance companies don’t care how much you exercise. The people evaluating your immigration application don’t give a shit how you eat. The doctor who refuses to treat you until you get your stomach rerouted doesn’t first say “does BC find this person attractive?” Most of the time, they go by the BMI, which you’ll notice doesn’t care what you personally find acceptable or unacceptable fat. It doesn’t even care what you think is “really fat.”

    I’ve seen people respond to the photo project at this link saying “none of these people are really obese.” Yes they are. That’s what “obese” means. That’s what “the obesity epidemic” looks like. These are people who are facing enforced diets, employment consequences, child services interventions, refusal of medical services both standard and emergency. This is especially true if some of the faddish new ideas for combating the “obesity epidemic” (defined, remember, by the BMI, not by BC) are put into play, but it’s true even now.

    Another point I want to make: we’ve just done a lot of talking about not comparing oppressions, and it would be awesome if it cut both ways. Yes, anyone who says fat is “the last acceptable prejudice” or whatever is an idiot — it’s not true, and also all prejudices are different. But as long as it keeps coming up, I want to make an important distinction. Yes, anti-fat bigotry has nothing like the historical context of racism — in fact, it’s very recent, no matter how many people try to invoke evolutionary psychology to justify their fat hatred. But first, it is a big fad right now; you can barely read a newspaper or watch a television show without running across some gag about how gross it is to be fat, how all fatties are gluttons, how fat makes you unlovable. There’s nothing subtle about fat hatred; it is an onslaught. And second, it’s legal. Racism and homophobia and sexism are rampant even among progressives, and are often so sneaky that you can’t take action against them. But when they’re overt, there are specific protections under law. If someone wants to deny me a job, a fair wage, the ability to adopt, the ability to emigrate, medical care, insurance? (And yes, by the way, I’m “uninsurable” because of my fat, and I’m in the BMI Project if you’re curious.) Well, I would have no legal recourse in 49 states.

    I don’t want to play the “who has it worse” game. As Amp said, all oppressions are different. The one that lacks a violent history can still do regular psychological violence, and do it in a way that leaves victims entirely unprotected.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 9:32 am ¶

42. Cynthia wrote:

    Fillyjonk,

    Paul could be very muscular. He DID play football, after all. I don’t believe in BMI, because I’d be considered very underweight for my height.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:04 am ¶

43. Paul wrote:

    Fillyjonk,
    Body fat percentage as measured through electrical resistance is much more accurate than BMI. According to BMI, many professional athletes are obese. Muscle weighs more than fat and thus skews BMI.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:09 am ¶

44. DivergentDana wrote:

    Count me among those who don’t believe in BMI. I mean, women and men are judged by the same standard when women have more fat and men have more muscle, on average? Makes no sense.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:12 am ¶

45. EvilAngelfish wrote:

    @Paul:

    Would I be correct in the assumption that you are not considering that because of differences in hormone levels, muscle mass and body fat distribution, men often have less difficulty losing weight and maintaining a healthy weight than women do? It’s not always a matter of simply cutting empty calories and getting “real exercise”. In addition to genetics, there are several medical conditions (hypothyroidism, Cushing’s disease, hormone deficiencies and fluctuations) that can contribute to being overweight so it’s not always a “lifestyle choice” (by the way, that sounds an awful lot like something that people say to dismiss protestation of LBGT discrimination…). It’s easy to think that fat people don’t exercise and do nothing but stuff their faces with cream puffs and Big Macs all day* and if they’d stop doing it, everyone would be trim and slender but that simply isn’t the case for everyone who identifies as fat. Many have been struggling with their weight (and self-esteem) for their entire lives and didn’t just let themselves go to seed after a college football career. Incidentally, our society is far more forgiving of 50 extra pounds on a man than on a woman.

    From what I understand, the FA movement is not about having everyone embrace morbid obesity. It is about not being mocked, ridiculed or denied adequate healthcare, employment and media representation because one is “fat”. No, it’s not just like the civil rights movement but there are similarities.

    *I don’t think it’d be okay to ridicule a person who *did* eat cream puffs and Big Macs all day but in that case, I’d understand having them pay higher insurance premiums or health care fees.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:16 am ¶

46. Fillyjonk wrote:

    You guys aren’t really getting my point, though. The BMI is complete bullshit — I love that you think you have to tell me that — and Paul could be very muscular, but THAT DOESN’T MATTER when it comes to discrimination. When people talk about the “60% of Americans who are overweight and obese,” they’re talking about Paul. If he were muscular enough to be put in the obese category, he could be denied insurance. I’m just sick of people nattering about the “obesity epidemic” who don’t realize that they’re talking about people who look like the ones at that link.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:20 am ¶

47. K.lo wrote:

    “Fat people are discriminated against because they CHOOSE to be fat.” AND “Being overweight is a choice.”

    Comments like these demonstrate the need for the FAM to continue. Not everyone chooses to be fat. (See angryyoungwoman’s post). Some people work very hard and at some point you have to accept yourself.

    Paul, just because you decided to let yourself go after you finished playing ball, doesn’t mean that everyone has a story like that. It wasn’t hard for you, besides, you were already an athlete.

    Who are we to judge someone’s story? People are larger for all sorts of reasons. If you follow any of the FA blogs you will find people who are recovering from anorexia or bulimia trying to get health and stay health at any size, you will find people eat organically. You will also find people who compete in marathons, people who are more dedicated to exercise than many of my smaller friends, and people who are struggling to figure out a way to gain self-esteem in a society that tries to limit access to activities.

    There are a few FA blogs that I read on a regular basis. It’s actually kind of sick; I read them to affirm the fact that I am NOT fat. I read them to make myself feel better about the full-calorie coke that I consumed. I read them as a reminder that if something happens and I don’t fit into my 7 jeans that life is not over. When I read I feel like an outsider. I’m sure that there are people who are around my size who are involved in the FAM, but the movement as a whole did not really speak to me personally as a black woman. What I could relate to was the suffering that these people endure, and what it feels like to be marginalized based on physical appearance.

    Yesterday I was feeling Tara’s rant. I could also identify a bit with BC’s first comment. Now that the discussion here at Racialicious has taken a new direction, I see the absolute need for the FAM. Seeing the size-ignorance seeping from individuals I normally find enlightening, has been disturbing.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:26 am ¶

48. Fillyjonk wrote:

    (Anyway, Paul being overweight is kind of the least important part of what I wrote; I just get frustrated with people adopting terminology with a specific quantitative meaning to use for qualitative distinctions. When scientists or reporters talk about the percentage of “obese” Americans, they don’t mean the same thing you do if you use “obese” to mean “fatter than I personally find acceptable.”)

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:26 am ¶

49. Paul wrote:

    I meant no disrespect toward fat people. The point I was making was that they are not oppressed and mistreated in the same manner because they can choose to cast aside that which makes them outsiders and discriminated against.

    Having anti-discrimination laws in regard to obesity is problematic. What happens if I was fat by one measure (BMI) but not by another (percentage body fat)? Would I be entitled to protection or not? What about airlines policy of requiring very obese people to buy two seats so as to be fairier to other passengers? Is that discrimination or common courtesy?

    As to biological conditions which create obseity, those obviously aren’t lifestyle choices. I reckon that the vast majority of people with body fat percentages over 30% eat and exercise in a manner that increases their body fat.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:28 am ¶

50. Fillyjonk wrote:

    You buy passage on an airplane, not space. So that one’s not the koan you think it is.

    So, you reckon that, eh? I notice that people feel free to do a lot of “reckoning” about the habits, background, and choices of people whose bodies offend them. You’ll find that it’s hard to back up a claim that fat is largely environmental rather than genetic, or that diets are effective in the long term, or that food restriction leads to permanent or even long-term weight loss, or that food overabundance leads to permanent weight gain, or that fat people on the whole eat differently than thin people. But sure, everybody knows. Everybody reckons.

    It’s a good thing that you mean no disrespect when you say that it’s perfectly fine for children to be taken away from their parents on pain of losing weight, when evidence shows that dieting is ineffective, even counterproductive and that over-consciousness of weight is harmful to children, because they could always choose not to be so fat, which is totally easy and happens all the time. As long as no disrespect is meant, right?

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:38 am ¶

51. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    *ahem*

    This post was NOT intended to be an discussion of what movements are considered legitimate.

    I will caution those who are dismissive of FA to remember that there are many who are dismissive of anti-racist efforts, feminist efforts, afro-centric efforts, disability awareness, etc. No matter what your cause is, there is someone who is happy to tell you how much it does not matter.

    This conversation was intended to talk about intersectionality within major movements.

    I am glad the the conversation has been informative about Fat Acceptance and it has illustrated why FA is needed.

    However, commenters, please remember that this thread was intended to be about intersectionality.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:40 am ¶

52. Fillyjonk wrote:

    Having said that, I don’t think this is the appropriate place for this discussion; I feel like I’m hijacking Racialicious’ space to have a conversation that’s gone way off the rails. So I’m going to step away (unless Latoya feels it’s awesome for people to be having this discussion here), and if you choose to interpret that as you winning, feel free. If you’re actually interested, though, there’s so, so much you can read.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:42 am ¶

53. Fillyjonk wrote:

    And it looks like it’s NOT awesome (good timing), so that’s it from me… I do hope you do some reading.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:43 am ¶

54. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Fillyjonk, Ampersand, other FA activists -

    Please feel free to leave links to resources. Also, feel free to stick around to fight anti-fat sentiments.

    My caution was addressed toward the “Fat people don’t need a movement” folks.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:49 am ¶

55. Fillyjonk wrote:

    Got it, Latoya. (Actually that’s really clear now that I read more carefully, sorry! And thanks.)

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 11:44 am ¶

56. Ampersand wrote:

    Thanks, Latoya.

    (And thanks to everyone else who has posted defending FA.)

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 1:32 pm ¶

57. Black Canseco wrote:

    You guys win. This is an impossible discussion to have because it seems so either/or with everyone. I’ve tried seeing things from all sides and simply have said that the extremes expressed by many FA-ers are doing more harm than good for all involved. But apparently that possibility isn’t even plausible.

    Apparently there’s no such thing as “too fat”. Apparently everyone who is fat is fat due to a medical issue beyond their control. And apparently people who are fat are being discriminated against in every aspect of their lives above and beyond the occassional mean-spirited jokes and name-calling.

    And apparently i don’t see this because even though i’ve been 310lbs, i’ve chosen not to see it.

    What i have seen is a lot of frustration that comes with looking in the mirror and not being happy with what you see. i have seen the days where you’re not sure if you’ll live to see next week because of your weight. I’ve had the embarrassment of needing a second seatbelt on an airplane in coach.

    I have also seen an increase–driven largely by business desires to cater to fat people–healthclubs, plus-sized clothing/designers… I’ve seen bigger seats becoming the norm as most businesses are recognizing the fact that people are bigger across the board; and that sizes 12-16 are about average for women these days.

    Maybe there’s not enough of such outlets, businesses, etc; and maybe free market dynamics and preferences won’t create more. i dunno.

    Regardless, i’m giving up the discussion on this one. I’ll just happily stay out of the way and “live and let live” as one poster has put it.

    I’ll also tell folks in my family that the main reason they have problems getting adequate affordable health-care isn’t because they’re black and poor and that the rundown clinic is 5 miles closer than the nearest full-service hospital, but it’s because they’re round and society doesn’t believe that round people deserve quality healthcare.

    Each day, I’ll remind myself that there’s no such thing as personal preference when it comes to body type either–not when one of the body types is considered fat. then every body type has to be viewed the same in every way.

    I’ll remind myself that black women in the workplace are probably making less because their perceived BMI is too high.

    I’ll also be fighting for bigger people to get free upgrades to first class/business class where the seats are bigger, too. Same goes for any business/service that feature seating as part of its business model such as movie theaters, buses, trains, and restaurants.

    It may drive up the prices for everyone else, but hey it’ll be worth it. After all, fair is fair.

    Congrats, you’ve got another convert.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 2:06 pm ¶

58. Morgan wrote:

    I come from fat stock. My ancestors are all fat. If they were around today they’d be termed morbidly obese. Yet they managed to live extremely active lives doing intensely hard physical labor like run farms, raise cotton, dig ditches, lay rail road lines, etc. They also lived to old age despite the fact that “everyone knows” that fat is a horrible deadly disease that people chose to have, and that it will cause you to drop dead of a diabetes-related heart attack the instant you turn 35.

    I’m 30. I’m fat. I’m over 100 pounds overweight. I’m moderately active and walk a mile or two every week day and bike on the weekends, because I enjoy moving and being active. My blood sugar, blood pressure, and cholesterol are all well within the normal, healthy range… even after those ranges were recently lowered. However, when I go to the doctor because I have knee pain (after a history of injuring said knee from being thrown from a horse, being in two car crashes, etc) I’m not offered physical therapy or cortisone shots. My knee isn’t looked at. I’m summarily told to lose weight. I had chronic tonsilitis for 18 years. My GP told me my tonsils were swollen and infected because I needed to lose weight. I had untreated asthma for over a decade because the doctors I went to told me I couldn’t breathe because I was “out of shape,” despite my habit of walking, biking, riding horses, gardening, swimming, etc.

    When I got out in public, people mock me loudly. I have had food thrown at me while walking down the street. I have been turned down for retail jobs because I didn’t fit the “look” of the company. When I eat in public, men sit down and stare at me as I eat, either because they have a fetish about fat women eating, or else because they want to joke with their friends about what a pig I am. After all, how dare I, a fat woman, eat in public. It’s simply disgusting, right? I have gone into stores that don’t carry extended sizes and had salespeople be rude to me simply because I’m fat, because of course I couldn’t possibly be shopping for someone else and my money is apparently too fat for them to handle.

    I have tried dieting. I’ve gained muscle, but never lost fat. I’ve worked extemely active jobs, including landscaping and working with horses. I’ve never lost weight no matter how active I’ve gotten or how much I’ve restricted my calories. I did manage to nurture a nice eating disorder, where I was consuming 800 or less calories a day. I managed to maintain this for five or so years, and was constantly cold, light heated, and dizzy. I didn’t lose weight.

    I, as a fat person, am not looking in any way to denigrate the experiences of anyone else who’s had to endure hatred or oppression. I’m not looking to be treated special or given free upgrades. I’m not looking to force other people into being sexually attracted to figure types they’re not attracted to. I’m looking to be treated as a person, to be able to walk down the street without being harrassed, to be able to receive adequate medical coverage, to get a job that I’m qualified for, to purchase clothing in a store instead of only online.

    These are things a lot of different people are fighting for, for a lot of different reasons. Anti FA people really seem to miss that, that we’re pushing to be recognized as human beings instead of flat, blobby, stinky, lazy, immoral plague-bearing creatures. Why is that so offensive?

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 3:30 pm ¶

59. ceecee wrote:

    BC I’ve got to say, you’re acting like what Obama said white people should stop doing…

    “In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination - and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past - are real and must be addressed.”

    You can do the substitutions for yourself

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 3:42 pm ¶

60. Anonymous wrote:

    “Each day, I’ll remind myself that there’s no such thing as personal preference when it comes to body type either–not when one of the body types is considered fat. then every body type has to be viewed the same in every way.”

    It isn’t about finding fat people attractive. That’s a different movement, and that movement isn’t even about you: It’s about people that do like it. S/FA is about equal rights, because you’ve just been informed a countless number of times that there’s inequalities.

    If you don’t find them attractive, that isn’t a reason to treat them wrong as a whole.

    “Apparently there’s no such thing as “too fat”. Apparently everyone who is fat is fat due to a medical issue beyond their control. And apparently people who are fat are being discriminated against in every aspect of their lives above and beyond the occassional mean-spirited jokes and name-calling.”

    That isn’t the point, as FJ said. You can’t know who is who in the equation, nor can you know what percentage of people that are fat whom do it as a choice. Besides: Should a thin person that has a poor lifestyle be scolded too? There’s a way of advocationg lifestyle improvement, and it doesn’t involve shaming. And once again: You’ve been told of the inequalities.

    “I have also seen an increase–driven largely by business desires to cater to fat people–healthclubs, plus-sized clothing/designers… I’ve seen bigger seats becoming the norm as most businesses are recognizing the fact that people are bigger across the board; and that sizes 12-16 are about average for women these days.”

    Just because there’s a plus size rack at wal mart doesn’t mean there’s accmodation. You have to look at the bigger picture. Be honest with yourself. Your comment about socioeconmic status? There’s a big connection between that. There’s an inverse relationship between size and class. A new article just came out that says Mexico is becoming heavier (Approaching us as the “Fattest Country,” even though the fattest country is actually Nauru), and we both know Mexico is very poor overall.

    “I’ll remind myself that black women in the workplace are probably making less because their perceived BMI is too high. ” (Add too low)

    Ok. Can her supervisor come up to her, and say “I’m sorry, but you’re just too ‘Black/white/whatever’ to work here. You’re fired,” without a lawsuit? Can the supervisor make that judgment based on their own merit, i.e. “Well I think this skin tone is too dark/light/etc, so I’ll just fire all of those people?” There’s two cities and one state where that isn’t allowed. Everywhere else? Anyone can do that if they wish.

    “I’ll also be fighting for bigger people to get free upgrades to first class/business class where the seats are bigger, too. Same goes for any business/service that feature seating as part of its business model such as movie theaters, buses, trains, and restaurants. ”

    Well if it’s anything like healthcare, or allowing gay marriage, then doing that wouldn’t have any major economic effect, And you would have to ask the activist in question, because our views don’t necessarily agree all the time. Some might say paying a little extra is fine, but most will say paying for a whole extra seat in any part of the plane is exorbitant.

    It’s about treatment. People think shaming and negative feedback are practical means of encouraging changes.

    I’m a straight, thin person of color (Though I don’t like the term very much), and I’m a part of three movements: Size Acceptance, Racial Equality, and Gay Rights. We can’t play oppression olympics. There’s oppression on all sides. We have to value everyones experiences. I don’t think racism is dead, but some of the comments I see here an abroad are disenfranchising to say the least.

    Though five or six years ago I might say that the efforts against racism were improving, we’ve started to make some major back peddaling as a society, and it is sad. One only needs to go to youtube or yahoo answers to experience what its like. What’s worse is the more the movements (All three in this case) make progress, the more there’s resistance and inequality. I think racism today has changed a bit from the past, though I would argue it’s just become more institutionalized overall.

    Frankly, I think anti-discrimination law should go for any trait that doesn’t otherwise have a direct and strong correlation with work output, and if it does, it should be a case by case thing.

    We should all listen to each other, and express ourselves. I don’t think everyone has to embrace every movement that exists, but I would wish that when someone speaks of their experiences, they don’t undermine people in other movements with their own hardships. You might see a trend of that in the fatosphere: Most fat bloggers know I’m thin (And regardless: Many people in the movement aren’t doing it for fat accmodation exclusively [Me included]), and it’s fine. There is no standard negative speak about thin people, gays, and most other groups (Some exceptions apply of course), and a lot of the people that do have those negative views don’t say anything for a reason. Some (Though I disagree) don’t believe certain groups are oppressed enough for a movement per se (Or that the size/fat acceptance covers everyone, which it can), but the same thing applies: They don’t say anything about it, because they want to be respectful.

    I could go on, but I’m not. I like this blog though, so I might jump on it. Thanks for your post.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 4:50 pm ¶

61. Kate Harding wrote:

    I’ll also tell folks in my family that the main reason they have problems getting adequate affordable health-care isn’t because they’re black and poor and that the rundown clinic is 5 miles closer than the nearest full-service hospital, but it’s because they’re round and society doesn’t believe that round people deserve quality healthcare.

    You know, as much as it pains me to take your comments at all seriously, given your obvious contempt for fat people in general and fat activists in particular, stuff like this is exactly why the FA movement needs to be more aware of intersectionality–because trust me, BC, being black, poor, AND fat are all reasons why your relatives are getting the shaft on healthcare.

    Given that African-Americans and Latin@s are heavier, on average, than white people, sizeism is often used as a mask for racism and classism in situations where being overtly racist or classist would be frowned upon. Check out Greg Critser’s descriptions of watching Latino families eat fast food in his execrable book Fat Land if you want to see a terrific example of someone wrapping racism up in the prettier package of being “concerned” about fat people’s “health.” Or take the fact that generally speaking, all fat people are assumed to be woefully ignorant about nutrition and exercise, but that goes doubly so for fat people of color, and doubly so again for poor, fat people of color: “those people” are just so dumb, they don’t understand that they shouldn’t be feeding their kids fast food 3 meals a day, don’tcha know? It has nothing to do with access to affordable fresh food, or to adequate health care, and certainly not with any genetic predisposition to fatness! (Note: genetic predisposition is not the same as a “medical condition.” We’re not arguing that every fat person has a friggin’ thyroid problem over here. We’re arguing exactly what the research shows–that fat is about 77% heritable.) Widespread scorn for fat people and assumptions about how they live provides racists with a “safe” way to talk about how ignorant and lazy those brown people are.

    For that reason alone, you might be interested in working to fight against fat stereotypes, instead of spouting off about the “extremes” fat activists express, when you’ve clearly never listened to one. (Hint: many of us do promote healthy eating and exercise–even when we take crap from other activists about it–and none of us give a tiny rat’s ass whether you find us attractive. For starters.)

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 4:58 pm ¶

62. deleahrium wrote:

    @Cynthia C:

    I’m so sorry for the miscommunication! I wasn’t directing that at YOUR “comment #5.” I totally didn’t even realize that might happen *slaps forhead*

    I meant the comment posted within the original post. AKA:
    But of course, it only takes five comments before someone starts talking reckless:

    No.5 Untitled
    …
    Racism is NOT acceptable in polite society, and you know it. I’m not saying it isn’t still around, but how can you say it’s institutionalized in our laws, when specific laws have been enacted countless times that outlaw discrimination? As a white person (in the South, no less) who makes every effort to confront prejudice whenever I do see it, I just don’t see how your assertion is true. Every instance of racism I’ve ever seen has been loudly condemned from all quarters, over and over again… etc…

    I actually totally agree with you that Asian women are expected to be small, and I’ve read about studies they’ve done that show Asian-American women are finding their bodies are very different than their mothers’ or grandmothers’ (who may have grown up in their country of origin) because of the American diet - not just fat, but because of different hormones used in foods, etc, many women are finding they do naturally have these “idealized” T&A body types that they aren’t “expected” to have or whatever.

    Anyway, I wasn’t arguing you Sorry again!

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 5:00 pm ¶

63. Black Canseco wrote:

    it’s amussing that people are assuming that i show contempt for fat people however you’re choosing to measure “fat”.

    i show contempt for people who take things to such extremes that even considering another’s view is out of the question.

    i’ve considered the views of everyone since i’ve been on this site. i don’t dismiss anyone’s view out of hand. i just choose not to agree with everything.

    there’s a great number of injustices and cases of disenfranchisement in the world. i just believe that movements and civil rights should be what you engage in once all other avenues have been exhausted.

    and when it comes to obesity, and personal health, this is too critical of an issue to simply put it on society to be nicer and more considerate as if that’s your biggest problem.

    when i was 315lbs, the last thing i needed was everyone telling me that i’m fine and okay. i wasn’t. i wasn’t healthy. and the more people were willing to do the fake “he’s just big-boned” excuses the worse i got. i had no encouragement to change.

    now i’m not implying that picking on fat people is for our own good. but don’t infantilize me. there’s got to be some middle ground here.

    anyone who’s been to a restaurant, rode a bus or an elevator lately knows that things are being made bigger for one reason: 66% of americans are overweight.

    But is supersizing our environment and Oprah-izing fatness really where we want to be with this?

    Obesity will kill you, maybe not right away, but your quality of life and lifespan drops once you get past a certain height/weight proportion. That’s just a fact.And not necessarily talking BMI.

    And here’s another fact: Does anyone know which group has the shortest lifespan in America? Retired NFL Linemen. It’s true. They’re at greater risks for enlarged hearts, heart attacks than everyone else.

    The one thing they all have in common is their weight. 290, 340lb people just don’t live very long. That’s why so many former lineman bust their humps to lose as much weight as possible after they retire–their lives depend on it.

    Shouldn’t part of the solution be personal healthcare and figuring out the mittigating factors in being fat as opposed to trying to get the world to say being excessively fat is okay?

    as i’ve said before, my excessive amounts of melanin was not the cause of my heart liver issues–it was my excess fat. and no amount of kind words, group hugs and colored ribbons worn in acceptance and support was getting me any healthier.

    if many of the FA advocates are convinced that fat can’t cause heart attacks and crippling medical issues, i’ve got a few funeral homes that you can visit.

    if you want to talk about fat being a mask for race and classism is certian instances, i’m right there with you. i’ve seen that up close and personal.

    is there an assumption that fat people choose to be fat? by some, yeah. Is it right/fair? no. is it grounds for a protest or a movement?

    but some of the stuff written out here just isn’t fair to people who are fat. It’s saying that everyone’s picking on you because your fat and once we fix that you’ll have a great life like everybody else.

    i just refuse to go along with that line of thinking.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 9:39 pm ¶

64. NancyP wrote:

    Amp and others -

    The Am. Diabetic Association diet is not necessarily a weight loss diet, it is just a balanced diet low in simple sugars. You know the drill - veggies, fiber, pulses (beans, lentils), starch foods (rice, potato), fruit, a little meat, a little dairy, a little fish, everything low in unsaturated fat. A nice moderate diet, not faddish, not necessarily excluding small samples of off-diet food. The sort of thing many of our ancestors tried to eat.

    EVERYONE, including BMI 19-25 (considered “normal”) should be eating this way.

    Fructose-containing 64 oz. sodas are not a food group. Neither is a six-pack of beer a day.

    Similarly, EVERYONE should exercise, aerobic and strength exercises.

    If after eating a balanced, low-sugar, low-fat , non-calorie-restricted, natural-appetite diet, and engaging in the light exercise typically recommended by doctors (20-30 min 5x per week aerobic, weights and calisthenics 3x week (not necessarily gym, a few dumbbells and a rubber band set goes a long way), the person’s BMI is still greater than the artificial “normal” of 19-25, then the person is just a statistical outlier on the bell curve of normal.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:10 pm ¶

65. BiltfCmfrt wrote:

    Thank you Kate for pointing out something that should be exceedingly obvious. And thank you Amp for expressing something that most people don’t even realize: It’s mostly about perspective.

    My situation is this: I’m Fat (Over 350Lbs), I am POC, and I am male. I cannot TELL you how many times I’ve interviewed for a job I KNOW I was capable of doing. NOT gotten that job, and been left wondering if it was because of racism, sizeism or if they were just using sizeism as a cover. As Bebe Campbell wrote ‘My mother saw speaking impeccably English as a strategy in the battle for civil rights.’ I’ve played the ‘But you sounded TALLER on the phone’ game. Sizisim as a front? That crap is INSIDIOUS.

    For those who have doubts about what FA can TEACH, you need to look in and learn. Not ONLY that discrimination against fat people does exist. Look at it and learn what kind of damage a HUGE lobbying concern like the Diet Industry can do when it’s practically unregulated, backed by a well paid medical complex, and fronted by a media that lives on fear. Learn, as I have, what it means to be female, or worse, female and FAT in this country. Learn what it means to be anorexic (It’s not just about shallow, teenage, white girls. It’s starting to creep over. F’real). And learn about what FA means to a lot of people. For some the ‘A’ stands for ‘Activism’ for others it means ‘Acceptance’. But not so much, as Black Canseco suggests, to get other people to accept them as fat. Some people are involved with Fat Acceptance to learn how to accept THEMSELVES. People who have internalized the ‘ugly, fat, pig’ message to such an extent that they have to WORK and work, damn hard, to even feel ‘ok’ about themselves. Let me ask you; does, hounding, shaming, or belittling a person THAT down on themselves already sound like the solution to the problem? No? Well, not only is it done, it’s ENCOURAGED. It’s encouraged to the point where it’s almost a reflex response (BC I know your coming around but go back and re-read some of your earliest posts. Think about what you were thinking THEN) . ‘We’re just trying to help’ is the common excuse most use to justify this kind of behavior but i think we can all feel where it’s really coming from. Superiority over ______. Disdain for ______. Fill in the blanks however you want, it still comes down to hatred of ‘Other’ and there ain’t NOTHING right about that.

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 10:20 pm ¶

66. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    “EVERYONE, including BMI 19-25 (considered “normal”) should be eating this way.
    …Similarly, EVERYONE should exercise, aerobic and strength exercises.”

    NancyP,

    I’m sorry, but when did you get appointed the State Commissar of Food and Diet?

    Unless you a) have some kind of legitimate training in diatetics and b) have actually EXAMINED the people who your recommending this diet for, I think that you should really go very easy on the ultimatums!!!

    Posted 25 Mar 2008 at 11:34 pm ¶

67. Brenda Fat!SO? wrote:

    I am a woman of color and formerly morbidly obese. Two years of intense and hard work brought me from 400+ pounds down to a near-anorexic 145. I am Black Canseco’s success story. And I am offended and saddened and disheartened by his comments here.

    It was the FA movement that convinced me that I was WORTH something, that I didn’t have to hate myself for being fat, that I didn’t have to put a single bit of effort or energy into that kind of self-hatred. Once all the energy I had been putting into hating myself was directed at loving myself–all 400 pounds of myself– I was free to treat myself lovingly–by buying healthier food and a gym membership for example.

    And for the alleged physician who posted above with the opinion that fat people should pay more for health care? You need to consider a different profession, sister. I suggest something in the arena of HMO administration. There it’s all about the money–you don’t have to hide your greed. Well, not much anyway.

    Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 3:16 am ¶

68. Celeste wrote:

    Exuuuse me, Branda Fat?
    There’s nothing alleged about my degree, nor the student loans I have to back it up. No need to go around insulting people. I’m very happy for your success, that’s great.
    However, healthcare is too broad a topic to really get into in-depth on a blog post but in case you haven’t noticed, there’s a bit a a crisis going on.
    We deliver the most expensive healthcare inthe world and it’s not sustainable. If we don’t change we’re going to run out of money, soon. I used to think that healthcare is a right, but anything this expensive that we don’t back up with a policy that makes it available to everyone isn’t a right.
    There has tobe an incentive for people to take better care of themselves and consume less healthcare resources. That mean diabetics need to control their sugars, hypertensives need to take their meds, smokers need to stop smoking, alcoholics need to stop drinking and the degree of obesity in this country needs to decrease. The reason why is because letting all these things go costs much more money in the short and long term. We really need a better, more accurate definition of obesity that doesn’t rope in fit, large people but no one is serve by pretending that obesity doesn’t cost the healthcare system more.
    Morbidly obese people need more of almost everything when they’re hospitalized. Big boy beds, more nurses when they need to ambulate, more drugs, more blood, more physical therapy, bigger, more expensive scanners (if you’re too big for the big scanner here… I think 400#, you’re going over to the veterinary school to get scanned) and that’s just off the top of my head. As I mentioned before: all this stuff is really not free and we’ve got limited resources to work with. So if you want to call it “all about money”, fine. That doesn’t change how much anything actually costs.
    So, yes I’d rather spend healthcare dollars on things that someone can’t prevent by chagning their behavior. Instead of spending money on amputating a diabetic’s leg, I’d rather be able to ensure that more HIV patients can afford their drugs *before* they develop AIDS. Instead of paying for an alcoholic’s GI bleed, I’d rather pay for good rehab for substance abusers in general. Get my drift, here. For everything we do pay for, that means that something else that we need is not funded. So it’s not just about obese, it’s about preventable problems in general.

    Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 9:57 am ¶

69. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Celeste,

    So, basically you’re calling for rationing health care?

    How come, when it comes time to drop bombs on this or that Third World country, nobody ever says “there’s not enough money to pay for that” - but when it comes to caring for sick people or otherwise taking care of human needs, “oh, we don’t have enough money”.

    Did you ever think about it that way - or were you too busy blaming the victimis of inadequate health care?

    Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 12:38 pm ¶

70. Ampersand wrote:

    The reason why is because letting all these things go costs much more money in the short and long term.

    Celeste, even if we assume for the sake of argument that preventing obesity leads to better health and longer lives (and I don’t think that’s true), you’d still be wrong, because when people live longer they spend more on health care. A recent Dutch study did the math and found that people living longer doesn’t save the system money; it costs more money.

    Overall, the cheapest people for our medical system are smokers, because they die soonest. Obese people are in the middle. The most expensive people for the health care system are the mid-weight, healthy folks who eat right; those folks live the longest and end up spending more on health care than anyone else. (See this AP article for more details.)

    I’m not advocating saving money by encouraging people to die sooner; I’m just pointing out that your logic makes no sense and is opposed to the facts.

    Finally, as I’ve pointed out time and again, it’s not true that most obese people can become non-obese through diet and exercise, in a safe, sustainable way over the long term. Study after study has shown this.

    What would cause fat people to live longer? Eating well and exercise — but with the goal of good health, not the goal of weight loss. (If the measure of success is weight loss, then the 95% of fat people for whom diets don’t work will have little reason to continue. If the goal is lower blood pressure and better fitness, however, then people will see positive results and be more likely to stick with healthier lifestyles, even if they don’t lose much weight.)

    This is called the Health At Every Size approach, and it’s been proven to work better than the weight-loss approach.

    Less stress about being fat would help fat people live longer, too. From Slate:

    A second study, published in the American Journal of Public Health on Jan. 30, looked at the relationship between body image and health. The authors compared people of similar age, gender, education level, and rates of diabetes and hypertension, and examined how often they reported feeling under the weather over a 30-day period. It turned out that body image had a much bigger impact on their health than body size. In other words, two equally obese women would have very different health outcomes, depending on how they felt about their bodies. Likewise, two women with similar insecurities would have more similar health outcomes, even if one were fat and the other thin.

    These results suggest that the stigma associated with being obese—feeling fat—is a major contributor to obesity-related disease and ill health. This would account for the strong association between body-mass index and depression (especially among women), and the high rates of morbidity and mortality that ensue. Sure enough, racial and cultural subgroups with more moderate attitudes toward obesity seem to experience more moderate health effects. Overweight and obese African-Americans, for example, are much less vulnerable to weight-related illness—even among women who are 5 feet 5 inches and 250 pounds.

    We’d see more gains in health by trying to make fat people feel good about their size, than by hectoring them to stop being fat (something most fat people can’t do, anyway).

    Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 1:33 pm ¶

71. Celeste wrote:

    Umm…yeah. I can see why my friends in clinical medicine are more cynical than I am at this point. *sigh*
    GAB, health care is already being rationed. You don’t call waiting until someone has AIDS to guarantee their meds rationing? You don’t call the untreated epidemic of substance abuse that we treat with prison rationing? What about other mental health issues? It’s only going to get worse without some serious course corrections. And for the record, I find the way we’ve allocated resources the past 7 years to be perverse. I always thought it was a really, really bad idea and that money could have gone to so many other things that wouldn’t have resulted in a huge pile of “liberated” innocent Iraqi corpses. I’m curious as to why you’d think that I’d rather spend money on bombs, or bailing out investment banks, etc than on taking care of people? I know that doctors are a conservative bunch but I think the conclusion you reached was a bit of a leap.

    Ampersand, I’m getting the same feeling about this Dutch study as I get whenever Bush is tlaking but I’ll reserve judgement and actually read tomorrow when I get to work. I’ll keep an open mind but it doesn’t sound too promising.

    Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 8:08 pm ¶

72. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Celeste,

    I KNOW that health care is being rationed.

    I happen to think that’s a PROBLEM and it’s something we should fight against.

    I suspect (and correct me if I’m wrong here) that you AGREE with the ideas behind health care rationing.

    Beyond that, you seem to have a very judgemental attitude about fat people - basically, and forgive me if I crudely oversimplify your position, you see us as lazy slobs who need to get off our asses, do some pushups and eat some granola.

    Unfortunately a LOT of your fellow medical professionals share your anti fat prejudices - which is why a lot of fat people like me avoid going to doctors as long as possible, to avoid being bombarded with insults and denied the care we need.

    In your case (and again, correct me if I’m wrong) you seem to be advocating outright denial of care to us fat slobs until we get skinny enough to fit your prejudices.

    Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 10:27 pm ¶

73. Sewere wrote:

    Amp said,

    What would cause fat people to live longer? Eating well and exercise — but with the goal of good health, not the goal of weight loss. (If the measure of success is weight loss, then the 95% of fat people for whom diets don’t work will have little reason to continue. If the goal is lower blood pressure and better fitness, however, then people will see positive results and be more likely to stick with healthier lifestyles, even if they don’t lose much weight.)

    This is called the Health At Every Size approach, and it’s been proven to work better than the weight-loss approach.

    YES, YES AND YES GADDAMIT!!!!!

    That’s the point, everyone is fat shaming because of how people LOOK NOT WHAT THEIR HEALTH REALLY IS. The vast majority of so called overweight people are slightly above their BMI (a tenuous measure of health at best).

    Using weight as a measure of health is so GODDAMN inaccurate it isn’t even funny. No one looks at the health and life-span of people slightly below their BMI as they look at the folks above BMI.

    Those of us who are honest in the field of public health know that behavior change is hard and it is even harder when it’s conveyed by SHAMING people. That is the clear statement from recent research on behavior change theory. Additionally, the relationship between health and BMI isn’t clear, there are way too many variables that have yet to be explained. I’d do a search for more articles but I’m out of the country and no where near my research notes.

    You can’t make people loose weight if you shame them and if you’re using a contentious measure of health as your measuring stick. Using shaming will guarantee that your intervention will fail. GET THAT?!!!! SHAMING PEOPLE TO LOOSE WEIGHT, DISCRIMINATING AGAINST PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THEIR WEIGHT WILL NOT HELP ANYONE.

    Tara, DivergentDiva, Ampersand, Shannon, GAB, Brenda and everyone else. Keep talking some of us ARE listening.

    Latoya, as always thought-provoking post.

    (P.S: If none of my sentences are clear it’s because I’ve been thinking and speaking in my third language for the last 5 days)

    Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 12:25 am ¶

74. Sarah wrote:

    To Celeste, it’s wonderful and inspiring that you are so concerned with getting good medical treatment to people with HIV/AIDS. As someone who has worked in that field, I would like to point out that until recently (possibly still now) it was widely accepted to see people with HIV as having gotten it through their own bad choices, making the disease their fault, and therefore making them not deserving of our limited medical resources. People with HIV/AIDS have been seen as a drain on our expensive medical resources. I point this out not to argue against HIV medical treatment (I hope that is very clear) but because you seem so comfortable blaming certain people for their health. You are definitely not alone in this - we all do it all the time, are encouraged constantly to do it. I point it out because maybe placing blame is just not so easy, drawing the line of who is a worthy patient and who is not is not so simple. Not all fat people are unhealthy, but of the ones who are, why should their weight - whether somehow a choice or not - make them marked as an undeserving drain on the medical system? Deciding who is deserving and undeserving of healthcare is a framework I hope we all can move away from. Healthcare is a right that we all need to fight for precisely because it is so expensive – we need to all share the cost so that we all have access to medical treatment when we need it without being judged on whether or not we can be blamed for our imperfect health.

    Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 1:16 am ¶

75. Celeste wrote:

    First of all I get the feeling that some commentors have not read my previous 2 comments all the way through. I didn’t say that we should shame fat people, in fact I said the opposite. It doesn’t help the discussion to criticize comments that were only given a cursory review.

    That doesn’t mean that doctors should mistreat fat patients. One of my classmates saw a resident grab a lady’s stomach fat and tell her “You need to lose this” while shaking it about. The poor lady thought so little of herself that she didn’t even get mad. No one deserves to be treated like that. On a practical note I don’t think verbal abuse really makes people stop eating, it probably increases the amount of emotional eating.

    I have said that there needs to be a better measure for weight-related-health than the BMI. I already said that not all people are fat because of bad personal habits. Sometimes medical treatment makes people fat. I didn’t suggest any particular approach to how we should go about addressing the intersection of healthcare and obesity. I just said that it costs more.
    GAB, I don’t agree or disagree with health rationing, it just is. Even (some would say especially) countries with socialized medicine ration resources. Rationing is nothing new and it’s very hard to fight to end it in any particular sphere, especially healthcare. The only way we can fight it is to change the way we allocate our national resources and have all of us pay more into the healthcare system. So no, I don’t like it. I wish that everyone could get all the healthcare they need. Even more, I wish that as a population that we would make better choices and free up funds so that we can take care of some of the needs that we can’t even touch now. There’s not enough to go around at this point so we have to make choices as to what gets covered and what doesn’t.
    I am a big proponent (many if not most physicians are) of personal responsibility. Seeing people day in and day out who don’t listen to your advice yet expect to get better results a lot of people becoming jaded. I think that’s why many physicians are republicans. I was always changing the TV station from FOX news to CNN in the surgeons lounge in med school but someone always changed it back, even if I was watching it. I’m one of the more liberal physicians but I don’t agree with paying extra for someone else’s right to consistently make bad choices. @ Sarah it’s true that one could blame HIV patients for their plight but you can’t stop going to the store and buying cartons of HIV. You can’t modify your activity level and diet and move yourself from the HIV category, to non-HIV. Personal choice might have prevented infection in some cases but it can’t undo the infection. You can’t make an exact comparison between weight and HIV.

    Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 10:36 am ¶

76. Celeste wrote:

    For the PLOS article. 1st question…did anyone actually read this thing? My guess is no. I read the article and the study has several weakenesses.
    1. It’s a simulation of theoretical people based on a population model comparing thin smoker, thin non-smokers and obese non-smokers. The risk factors were linked to only 22 diseases; there are more than 22 diseases whose risk can be modified by smoking or obesity. It assumes the cost of treating the 22 diseases is independent of the risk factor being tested which is really not true (see my 2nd post for a list).
    2. The diseases modeled accounted to roughly 15% of the total healthcare costs. The remaining health care costs per group were determined by multiplying the number of survivors for all the groups by an age and gender specific cost profile. That, again assumes that the 85% remaining health care costs are in no influenced by the risk factors for the different groups despite the numerous comorbidities that accompany certain risk factors.
    3. It assess the health care costs of individuals but not their relative payments into the healthcare system. Yes, if you live longer, you cost more but you are also a productive citizen longer as well so you contribute more.
    4. It was beyond the scope of the study but it didn’t assess the societal costs of the risk factors such as more people on disability.

    In short, this was a poorly designed study that grossly oversimplified the problem and came to a conclusion that can’t be trusted. I’m not saying that their conclusion isn’t true but they sure as hell didn’t prove it. There are many other studies that use data from real people to demonstrate an increased cost associated with obesity. This does not mean that fat people should be mistreated and feel like they’re worthless. That was never my point. My point is that being obese costs the healthcare system more. You want to disagree, please bring something better than this “study” to prove your point. Being classified as obese is not always something that someone can change, it doesn’t always indicate poor health but that doesn’t mean that it never does.

    Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 10:37 am ¶

77. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    ” I don’t agree or disagree with health rationing, it just is”

    Celeste,

    That’s a fatalistic position!

    Imagine if people had taken the same view of racism, or sexism - or for that matter, slavery?

    Imagine what kind of world we’d live in if everybody had that same fatalistic attitude?

    Beyond that, on the “personal responsibility” front - we live in a society where the food is adulterated for corporate profit, and the most heavily chemicalized food is also the cheapest and most readily accessable.

    In that context, as a scientist are you suprised at the existance of an obesity epidemic?

    And in that context, of a SOCIAL problem with food, is “personal responsibility” even realistic?

    Or does it just boil down to insulting fat people for being fat?

    Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 11:21 am ¶

78. Celeste wrote:

    GAB,
    At what point did insult fat people for being fat?
    I did not comment reguarding the myriad of reasons for the amount of obesity in this country. The extremes of any discussion are easy but few things are easy enough to view in a binary manner. The fact that poor people are more obese would suggest that that obesity is multifactorial and not always just a choice. That doesn’t mean that choice never factors into the equation. What has happened to the food supply and our lifestyle really stacks the odds against vunerable populations being able to maintain a healthy body habitus.
    As for rationing? Did you read the whole paragraph I wrote because just copying and pasting “it just is” is an oversimplification. I am for health care reform but it’s not a problem we can just throw money at because there’s just not enough money to throw. We as a collective society are going to have to make changes, choices and* sacrifices* in order for it to provide better care to more people. That probably means more taxes and more people taking responsilibty for what health risks that can be modified by behavior. Take a look at the health plans for the leading presidential candidates. It’s not a simple problem to attempt to solve.

    Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 12:21 pm ¶

79. Morgalla wrote:

    Ideally, noone should have to wait for a doctor, receive inferior quality healthcare by insulting providers, or not get care they need. I think everyone would agree that much of the ridicule and snarky smugness that gets aimed at the fat is not helping anyone. It does help to sell papers, get radio listeners, arouse blog readers- and sell advertising.

    Unfortunately, as Celeste said, there is just not enough money to help everyone who needs it. The problem in situations like this is also resource allocation. There are a number of endemic tropical diseases, for instance, that could be eradicated by first world countries sending money to the third world countries that need help. These are horrible, disfiguring, blindness-causing parasitic infections. And we, who stuff ourselves into oversized couches, oversized cars, and eat supersized meals complain because we can’t get respect at the doctor. People can’t help being born into some disease-ridden third world country. They can’t help being born black, Asian, female, gay (I feel evidence supports a biological origin for this), or with birth defects. Yet even in a country with a Mc Donald’s on every corner people can, to some degree, control their weight. At the very least, they can attempt to control their fitness.

    I am an advocate of a polite society, where people treat each other with courtesy, no matter what they look like on the outside- meaning that all these minorities, and yes, even fat ones too, should get courteous treatment. Being rude or insulting to anyone should always be taken to task. I have been teased and bullied, never for my weight, but because I had an eye that wandered and I wore thick glasses. I have been teased for my overbite, my blonde hair, (people still joke about my intellect) about my pasty white “cracker” skin, and about having acne. I am certain I am not alone in this. I know how being bullied feels and I don’t wish it on anyone.

    BUT I do resent being told I have to subsidize someone who has a partially preventable condition. I think if you use more resources, you should pay for them. I lost my mother to cancer, caused by smoking, a few years ago. She was 60. She started when she was 6 years old- her father quit, but she didn’t. She tried and failed many times. Doubtless the addictive qualities of cigarettes played a role, but so did her willpower, and the company she kept. She had to pay more for insurance, and never complained- just chalked it up to “the price of doing business”. It would have been unfair if my health insurance had gone up because I lived with her- as secondhand smoke kept me at the doctor with various infections until I moved away. But I wouldn’t be surprised if insurance companies start doing this. Actuarial tables tell where the greatest risks lie, which is why someone who skydives for fun has to pay more for life insurance. It isn’t discrimination to make people pay for what they use. Fair or not, I used more than my fair share of medical resources when I lived with her. In a reality that has not enough funds for even the best of causes, everyone has to assume as much responsibility for themselves as they can.

    Should we advocate for civility and courteousness for all? Certainly. Isn’t that what we really should be pushing for? Many other groups with obvious physical detriments would also benefit. (Why isn’t there a movement for “Ugly Awareness?”) But there is also free speech in this country, so I really doubt I could sue someone for calling me a”pizza-faced, buck-toothed, fatass cracker”.

    Finally, I think it insults POC to equate their struggles for acceptance and equality with those of an overfed, overprivileged white woman. I have no problem accepting people who are fat, (my entire family needed to lose a more than a few pounds) but I want them to accept at least a minimum of responsibility for being that way. Genetics, endocrine problems and medications can play a role in the causes of obesity, but not all people who are obese can claim these excuses. We could all stand to be nicer to each other, and more responsible for ourselves.

    Posted 27 Mar 2008 at 3:13 pm ¶

80. BiltfCmfrt wrote:

    Morgalla, we are in complete agreement about the lack of civility in today society. It seems that people have forgotten how to even converse with one another without it turning into a ‘the one who shouts loudest, wins’ contest. However, I think your missing the point where the ‘Obesity Crisis’ is concerned.

    A recent BusinessWeek article about the failures surrounding Big Pharma’s attempts to manufacture a ‘Magic Bullet cure for obesity’ (Illness need cures. Being fat is NOT an illness.) includes a pretty relevant quote.

    The latest obesity research is centering on an increasingly popular scientific premise: The human mind is all but hard-wired to hold the body at a certain weight. When people take a drug that helps them shed pounds, or even when they lose weight with exercise, an intricate tangle of brain signals kicks in to tell the body it’s in danger. Metabolism slows to help the body preserve itself, and hunger intensifies. Most scientists have come to believe that obesity is not a disease of gluttony so much as it is an unfortunate roll of the genetic dice, made harder to fight in Western nations by the growing availability of cheap food. “Some people are preordained to have a higher body weight than others. It’s normal’ for them,”

    FA has been saying this for YEARS and, only now, are some authorities beginning to figure it out.

    People tend to operate under a few basic misconceptions. 1) That the odds of inheriting a few ‘bad’ Fat Genes are tiny. Well,it would be if those ‘bad’ codes weren’t so deeply buried and hard wired into nearly everybody. Survival is eating. Starvation is death. It’s been that way since before we could walk upright and the only thing that’s changed is the availability of food. Most people who gain weight do so because that’s what human beings were PROGRAMMED to do. Those who can’t seem to lose any of it have just inherited more efficient programs than others and that’s a LOT more people than most realize.

    2) The other misconception is that it takes thousands of years for evolution to make changes in our genetic structure and the ‘Obesity Epidemic’ is only a few decades old at most so i CAN’T be genetic. Really? See: above- Availability of Food. Doubt that? I don’t know where you live or what food tolerances you might have, but have you ever eaten at a Red Lobster? I have. In Tennessee. Smack-dab in the middle of the country and probably close to a thousand miles from the nearest ocean. Seafood does NOT keep well. What does it say about americas food distribution network that a seafood restaurant CHAIN can operate and make profit even in the middle states? And this is not old news. Ask someone over 40 who grew up in a middle american state -How many seafood restaurants did you have in your town when you where growing up?

    The final argument for ‘Ur fat and it’s ALL ur falt’ usually ends up being 3) Well, their not fat in other countries. And the answer to that one is; Not YET. Mexico is now the 2nd fattest country in the world behind the US. There are weight loss clinics in China and even the french are starting to make ‘Obesity Crisis’ noises. Why? Maybe because the rest of the worlds distribution networks are beginning to reach parity with ours. Humanity hasn’t quite achieved an end to world hunger but we have managed to make certain parts of it heavier. Perhaps, by the time they reach where we are now, we will have already determined that the size of a persons waistline is not SIMPLY a matter of calories in / calories out or ‘willpower’ over ‘weakness’. Even better, perhaps we will have realized that the size of a persons waistline does not determine their WORTH.

    Posted 30 Mar 2008 at 1:15 pm ¶

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