Of “Wacky” Japan and the Myth of the Other

by Racialicious Special Correspondent Latoya Peterson

Boy Scrubbing!
Oh, the things these eyes have seen surfing the gaming blogs. I never know what is going to pop up on Kotaku, so when I saw a write up of Duel Love, I had to laugh. The Nintendo DS game puts you in the role of a transfer student, who becomes the personal trainer for a secret male fight club. Apparently, your job is to wipe down the boys post battle and give them massages. After reading the helpful description of gameplay provided by one brave blogger, I smiled a bit and surfed on.

But it appears that the game about boy scrubbing was not done with me yet.

A few days later, I checked my Feministe feed and saw that Holly had done a complete write up of the game. In her entry “Boy Scrubbing for Fun and Profit”

The first thing I noticed in the trailer is the fact that all the bodies featured are uniformly hyper-thin and pale. The game features the usual cliched lineup of cute boys to fall in love with: the moody cool loner, the rascally troublemaker, the older intellectual, the long-haired beauty, and the disturbingly young cute kid, but they all have the same disturbingly unrealistic body. (These kids are supposed to be fist-fighters?) A coworker of mine who’s into this genre says the artist who’s responsible for the character design has really gone downhill.

Now, I happen to agree with Zuzu’s points in that post I just linked: this kind of portrayal of boys is relatively insignificant in terms of role-modeling compared to what girls grow up dealing with, either here or in Japan. Although I did notice a very conformist “hot boy” look the last time I was in Tokyo, it certainly wasn’t an anorexic look. I still always wonder what’s going on with the fairly predictable kind of objectification you find in so many hundreds of shōjo and shōnen ai (those are the gay ones) comic books, visual novels, and games. These are products made mostly by straight women, for straight women. So what’s with the hyper-elongated torsos with the bizzarely placed pectorals? Is this really sexy? I remember seeing a Death Note bootleg game not that long ago that even featured a hyper-skinny guy with an absurd 12-pack of abdominal muscles. It’s not just that these artists don’t study realistic anatomy — just like the equally anatomy-and-physics-deficient artists who draw female characters with gravity-defying, spine-shattering boobs, there’s a particular kind of focused fetishization.

Holly then opens the floor for discussion (with a few different issues at play) but quickly comes back to the floor to address some stereotypical statements about Japan and Japanese society that were proliferating in the comments.

Holly says:

March 7th, 2008 at 10:38 am – Edit

I’ve noticed there are quite a few interesting ideas about Japan floating around in this discussion so far. I suppose I ought to have expected that, since it’s a Japanese game and this genre of comics / novels / games / animation originated in Japan. But really, it’s grown to be a global phenomenon. There’s something about it that appeals to a lot of people, not just in Japan. That’s what I’m curious about.

Japan has this place in the Western imagination as deeply strange and different on some level, a funhouse mirror and a convenient Other. That’s what has fueled what some people call the “Japan is Weird” trend in blogs and other websites. (Which, if you read the comments on that thread, I find deeply irritating.) I just want to make it clear, that wasn’t the intention of this post. It’s fine if you guys want to speculate about Japanese society or talk about how Japan is this way or that way based on pop culture you’ve consumed or a trip you made there. Even though I’m Japanese and spent big chunks of my childhood growing up there, I certainly don’t claim to be an expert on the subject. I want to do a little bit of myth-busting though… or at least, myth-questioning.

Holly thoroughly challenges many of the myths surrounding Japanese culture, like this one, heard quite often by my ears:


Characters in Japanese comics and animation look like white people!

This topic has been thoroughly written about. The best essay on the subject, in my opinion, is once again by my former classmate Matt Thorn:
http://www.matt-thorn.com/mangagaku/faceoftheother.html

Suffice it to say that yeah, Japanese art started slowly changing when exposed to Western aesthetic ideas, and changed in fits and starts over the next century for a number of reasons. But it’s really more a matter of how racial signifiers are drawn. If an American or European cartoonist or animator (say, from several decades ago, especially) wanted to signify that their characters were traveling to Japan and meeting Japanese people, there would be a whole lot of indications of skin tone, almond-shaped eyes, black hair, etc. But the same is not true in Asia — these signifiers are culturally relative and meant to distinguish racial “others” from the main characters. For instance, would it surprise you to know that Japanese people have, without hair dye, quite a huge variety of shades of hair? They may all look “black” to someone who grew up somewhere else, however. When you combine that with the fact that Japanese visual art traditions have never been given to exact realism in portrayal of people (or anything) it explains a lot. Another good essay:
http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/dec03/ao_1203_3.shtml

So:

“That’s probably to do with the early Disney thing anime had going on, but I really would appreciate more people of colour in my anime.”

… although we absolutely ought to be pointing out the effect of western aesthetic ideals on global culture, those ARE people of color, drawn by people of color, and people of color artists will keep representing ourselves however we want, even if they don’t look like people of color to you.

Another one that I see thrown out quite often:

Japan is a sexist society that is only now catching up with the United States

I see this one so often that it’s become a cliche, and I’ve been hearing this literally for decades. This is a well-understood tendency in anthropology: to look at other cultures and liken them to our own culture in the past, or our own culture with worse problems somehow, or our own culture but amazingly, fantastically better in some way. Of course, every culture deserves to be measured against itself to some degree. So, women in Japan: for starters, I hope every consumer of Japanese pop culture realizes that the “demure, submissive Asian woman” is a total racist stereotype. As far as sexism, it’s undeniable that Japanese women have faced and still face huge barriers in trying to gain access to power in the workplace and in politics. As far as I know there haven’t been major upheavals in this area for decades, so I’m curious where Neko-Onna gets the idea that “the role of women in that country is also rapidly changing.”

What’s been changing a lot in recent decades is actually the role of men, as people and institutions are starting to realize that keeping male office workers chained to their work for 18 hours a day is having a deleterious effect on health, family, the birth rate, etc. That may end up having a reciprocal effect on Japanese women, but let’s get one thing clear — Japan is not somehow analagous to the United States in the 60s. In other ways — especially in terms of traditional depictions of female strength and power, and in terms of financial decision-making and authority outside the workplace, it’s been argued that the situation of Japanese women is actually really good relative to a lot of places. Japan has different kinds of problems; there is a strict “division of powers” along gender lines between the working world (where still, it’s difficult to be a career woman and most women are only part-time or employed-until-marriage) and the home world — where, completely unlike the 50s Father Knows Best model of family here, everyone agrees that women are entirely in charge and that men do not run the household. Women are generally in charge of budgets and financing, most decisions about purchases (except the most major ones, which require joint decisions), how kids are raised, etc. The real problem is that men aren’t participating in this sphere, and women are discouraged from participating in the other — in part because the work conditions, until fairly recently, have been horrible and grueling, to the extent that many women are GLAD they don’t have to work for a corporation.

An interesting note on homosexuality in Japanese culture:

Norvegica says:

“I doubt there are very many healthy queer relationships out in the open, media-wise, in Japan.”

That’s definitely true. Although there are plenty of gay folks in Japan, I still feel like I met half the out gay population of Tokyo by wandering through several gay clubs. Obnoxious queeny stereotypes still pepper the mass media, although that’s been changing slowly too. Now there are leatherman stereotypes too. There hasn’t been a widespread “gay liberation” or “gay pride” movement, with the result that there’s still a lot of shame, especially related to family.

Holly also provides an international perspective on sexualized images of youngsters:

“I do think it’s jarring to see visually a character of either gender that I would peg as around twenty and read that they are more in the ballpark of sixteen. There are all kinds of ridiculous about it. Shonen action manga marketed to boys has these steroid-esque characters who are warriors or fighters of some sort who are six-feet tall and so on and so forth who are sixteen, sometimes fourteen in the story.”

This has been a problem in television dramas here in the United States too — if you watch many TV shows set in high school, or about teenagers (again, Dawson’s Creek comes to mind, as does 90210, and there are many more recent examples…) they tend to be populated with actors in their 20s. Who just don’t look like teenagers in many cases, no matter how you try to dress them up. I think this has to do with cultural perceptions of “mature” faces being more attractive, mature meaning college-aged.

And tackling the issue of statutory rape in other cultures:

Anne Onne says:

“I think it’s worth pointing out that they’re not ‘underage’ by Japanese standards, since their age of consent is much lower than that of the US or the Uk where I’m from.”

Also true, it’s 13 — however there are also a lot of local laws which have the same effect as statutory rape laws here in the United States. It’s not considered OK for adults to cultivate relationships with 13-year-olds, in other words. But I think this does make a big difference in terms of who’s portrayed as being potentially sexual. High school is 15 and up. (And notably, the most common age of consent here in the US is around 16.) I guess this is partly a question more for American audiences — I’ve been surprised that so far, there has been no hue and cry around what’s basically illustrated gay porn featuring minors, but maybe the fundamentalists just haven’t noticed in a big way yet.

(Hmm…there’s part of an answer for you, Wendi.)

Holly also deftly takes on popular media based assumptions:

“I think the general Japanese aesthetic naturally runs toward the more stylized and refined. I also think more Japanese men actually have the slight build of bishie boys.

I think you get this type of body a lot because the big ’super hero’ type in Japan has always been the Samurai. Not overly muscled, cultured, well groomed, and bad assed.”

I’m sorry — this stuff made me giggle. A lot of Japanese men would be very surprised to hear this. There is definitely a beauty standard about young, pale, skinny, tall boys with spiky haircuts — like EoL says, the Shinjuku hipster look. But that’s like saying, the American aesthetic is for Brooklyn indie-rock hipsters (who happen to look exactly the same). There are plenty of burly Japanese dudes with beards. They just don’t show up in the media as much, especially not in the west. I think a lot of this is a stereotype. Wait, did you hear that Japanese guys have small dicks, too?

As for Samurai, have you watched old Samurai movies? The heros do not look like Rurouni Kenshin. Toshiro Mifune? The classic image of samurai heroes I have from the fact that my grandmother incessantly watched samurai soap operas for 23 hours a day, not to mention any number of classic films, is of the grizzled burly tough guy — not all that skinny, definitely not smooth-skinned, and more weathered and beat up than pale. The bishi character in period stories is a far more recent invention, that appeared via anime and manga — in other words, due to the influence of shoujo. The hyper-thinness has become more and more pronounced in recent years too — if you look back at works that I grew up with, like Rose of Versailles, you can see the origins of that, but those characters are THICK compared to some of the stuff these days.

The conversation continues over at Feministe.

Personally, I’m kind of amazed. I read a great discussion, got some great references for debunking myths about Japan and Japanese culture, and learned quite a bit in the process.

All this from a game about wiping down sweaty adolescents. Who knew?

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. episcopophagous - del.icio.us links for 2008.03.14 to 2008.03.16 on 16 Mar 2008 at 1:00 pm

    [...] Of “Wacky” Japan and the Myth of the Other at Racialicious – the intersection of race an… [...]

  2. Feministe » Super Pii Pii Brothers on 04 Apr 2008 at 8:44 am

    [...] influential consumer segment in that nation: young women. I don’t normally jump onto “Japan is Wacky” news for the heck of it, but this is both genius and totally puerile, so why not? You can duel with [...]

Comments

  1. atlasien wrote:

    Toshiro Mifune was burly as hell!

    I’ve seen Holly tackle this stuff before; she’s really good at it.

    The “too many characters look like white people” issue is really complicated. I don’t have an opinion on it myself; I don’t know enough about the comparative history.

    There are three dominant views of Japan:
    1) Japan is heaven on earth! (Wapanese)
    2) Japan is waaaaaaacky!
    3) Japan sucks and (insert disgusting joke about Hiroshima) (racist and/or ex-Wapanese)

    I’m so tired of all of them.

  2. Kaonashi wrote:

    Amen. The thing that pisses me off is that people sometimes just go there people they think that Japan is a big pink puffy cloud of fandom, games and candy and the people who live there exist only for their enjoyment. They completely forget that this is a country with its own issues, just like everywhere else.

    And if another person attempts to tell me how racist Japan is without actually spending a significant time there I’m going to scream.

    Interesting tidbit: One of the most bestselling animes in Japan right now is Bleach–which has biracial characters in it and has had episodes dealing with that.

  3. Logan wrote:

    Just random comments about stuff here and there:

    1: If you want a real nice insight into the roles that Gender plays in Japan, check out Women of Okinawa, which is a series of interviews I believe transformed into a narrative, discussing the issues the 9 women had to face due to the fact they were women, and also racially due to being from Okinawa.

    2: As for the “whitening” of skin, admittedly I could be wrong on this, but I had read it before and my personal experience in Taiwan (not Japan by any means, but still in that sphere of influence) makes me think its real. This is that there is much more of a desire to be pale in Japan and other countries in the old East Asian Sphere of Influence than in America. One of the things that was commented about while I was in Taiwan was how some of our students were real tan, and how the girls there talked about how being pale was more of a thing of beauty. I had read about this in books on Japan, but can’t remember the specific one off hand.

    3: In regards to America casting adults as teens, I’d like to ask, would you really want it to be different? Would you want another case like the Olsen Twins or Brittney Spears, where you end up having someone underage as a sex-symbol, so to speak? Its easier to suspend disbelief if someone who is under 18 in the show and having sex or being a physically attractive woman is really over 18, but it begins to get into the creepy range if say, a 15 year old is portraying a 15 year old found attractive and sexually active.

    As a huge Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan years after its gone (but still alive in comic form :D ), her first sexual experience with Angel when she was 17, plus his infatuation with her going back to when she was 15 or 14 is still a little eekish when I see it play out. If Sarah Michelle Gellar hadn’t been 20 or so when she started Buffy, I think there would’ve been more of an uproar. While I do find it silly at times casting adults as teens, I think the alternative leads this to be, begrudgingly, the best option.

    4: Unrelated to the post mostly, but I’m currently trying to get a position teaching English over in Japan, to get a first-hand experience learning the language and culture in preparation for Graduate School. I’m scared to mention that I like anime or was my school’s Anime Club’s president in these interviews or on my applications because of the negative stigma that these weaboos (net-speak to describe such people who worship Japan) have associated with Anime fans.

  4. atlasien wrote:

    Colorism is an issue all over Asia. And Africa and Europe and Australia and America.

  5. Cynthia wrote:

    Altsien,

    What I think Logan is trying to say is that colourism has been around in Asia long, long, long before Europeans set foot there.

  6. Erika wrote:

    As a Japanese-American, I’m SO glad that you made a post about this! It seems like all I really see out in the blogasphere are blogs and entries dedicated to how weird Japanese people are. I know it’s a passing trend, but I think there’s something extremely questionable about a country and its culture being made “trendy” by a bunch of white people.
    In terms of skin-whitening, I personally do not know of any Japanese person who uses bleach. What I most often notice in Japan when I go there in the summer is that the women tend to cover up their shoulders more, and sometimes use umbrellas to try to avoid getting too tanned. It’s more of a classist thing than “wanting to be white”; Japanese people in general have rather pale skin to begin with, and it was, as in a lot of other countries, a sign of wealth and upper class to be pale instead of tan (the working class, peasants).

  7. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Koanashi –

    “And if another person attempts to tell me how racist Japan is without actually spending a significant time there I’m going to scream. ” I am actually going to do a post on this, tentatively titled “Your Racism ain’t like mine.” Put it this way – I see a lot of those complaints, and found another black expat’s blog that sheds some light on that situation.

    Atlasien:

    “There are three dominant views of Japan:
    1) Japan is heaven on earth! (Wapanese)
    2) Japan is waaaaaaacky!
    3) Japan sucks and (insert disgusting joke about Hiroshima) (racist and/or ex-Wapanese)”

    Here’s mine – and most of my con going friends’:

    4. Japan seems like a cool place I’d like to visit – one of the many places I would like to visit before I die.

    Logan –

    Most of your other questions/statement would probably be better posted to Holly over at the Feministe blog. I can’t answer you, unfortunately.

    In terms of four though:

    “Unrelated to the post mostly, but I’m currently trying to get a position teaching English over in Japan, to get a first-hand experience learning the language and culture in preparation for Graduate School. I’m scared to mention that I like anime or was my school’s Anime Club’s president in these interviews or on my applications because of the negative stigma that these weaboos (net-speak to describe such people who worship Japan) have associated with Anime fans.”

    Some of my friends have come and gone and said the experience of teaching english is Japan actually makes it really hard to learn the language. (This is compounded by people who come to teach English and generally use Japan as the backdrop for their exotic adventures.)

    If you are interested, I can point you toward some of my friends who teach internationally and they can give you some tips.

    Erika,

    I understand your frustration. Trendy is a good description but what disturbs me more are the comments I see like “Japanese culture is cool right now, so deal with it!” Ick…

  8. atlasien wrote:

    Latoya, are you talking about ExpatJane in Korea and this post? It’s pretty insightful, and it seems Korea is a strong parallel to Japan in terms of the expat teaching scene.

  9. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Atlasien – Bingo. That’s the one I’m quoting. Plus I got some info gleaned back from my newbie Otaku, ‘I’m moving to Japan next year!” days.

    Gotta track down the site that said “Japan is not a magical wonderland. Nor is it a racist, evil place that hates you. It’s a country, just like every other country, with its own problems and issues.”

  10. Phrone wrote:

    Although I really liked the responses and learned a lot, I disagreed with the one about people of color in anime. I felt the original, quoted comment was saying that there should be more ethnic minorities in anime, while the response was more “Well, it’s made in Japan, so there’s your people of color!” Not a lot of anime shows the various ethnic minorities in Japan (someone mentioned Bleach, but that’s only one of about a handful that I could think of), and I think a better response would have addressed that. :|

  11. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Phrone –

    True. I guess it depends on what ethnic minorities you are looking for. I’ve seen Chinese people represented in Japanese manga, but they don’t come off so good.

    I see a LOT of mixed race characters in Korean manhwa. I am not sure if it’s just the few books I’ve been reading or if whites and blacks (and their offspring) are more prominent in Korean society.

    There are also a lot more PoCs in American Made Manga, but that’s a whole other post…

  12. Jay wrote:

    The “too many characters look like white people” issue is really complicated.

    It is, but it can be broken down into a few points:
    -Japanese people draw themselves as “neutral” (look at manga depictions of Chinese characters sometime)
    -North Americans define “neutral” as “white”
    -Influence of Disney into manga

    There are more reasons but “neutral = white” makes up for a lot of it.

  13. ExpatJane wrote:

    Wow…y’all talkin’ ’bout me!

    LOL…nothing like a bit of slang to enter into a race discussion, no?

    I do think that it’s interesting seeing people opine about a culture they know very little of. I know I have not much of clue when it comes to Japan and they’ve been the country next door for years for me. I’m definitely a tourist when I’m in Japan.

    So keep talking and I’ll learn something.

  14. Sarah wrote:

    Finally, I’ve been waiting for a breakdown like this for a long time. Now I have something to show the overzealous Wapanese and the Business majors (Japan is WAAACKY…dude!) in my Japanese language class. ‘Cause they’re kind of out of control. -__-

    Thanks, Holly!

  15. Colin wrote:

    Latoya,

    I think one of your points is offbase.

    “4. Japan seems like a cool place I’d like to visit – one of the many places I would like to visit before I die.”

    There is nothing wrong with wanting to visit another country or thinking another nation is “cool”. That’s not the same as the “magical land of wonder and anime and games and hot chicks and happyness”. It’s a mere statement of like and desire, not some fanatical worship.

    In fact, I’d venture to say that more travel to other countries would help people actually get some idea of what they do and don’t like about a country so that at least they can be coherent when they talk about why they love some other nation.

    As a politico, I kind of disdain those who are infatuated with other nations for superficial reasons (like a certain pothead I know is with the Netherlands) but fail to see what good still exists here at home. That’s another problem with these myths that I see, we miss opportunities to appreciate the chances we have here in America to do great things when we lose ourselves in international fantasy. That’s not to say don’t travel; just inform yourself and always be skeptical when something, anything, even a nation, seems too good to be true.

  16. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Colin –

    I’m aware of that. I shouldn’t have assumed y’all would remember my last few posts in this vein.

    Most of my Con going buddies – who are PoC, strangely enough – happen to view Japan as a cool place. But so is South Korea. And so is Rome. And so is Kenya. Etc, etc.

    There are some Con goers who get it and who understand that Japan is not the magic cure all for a boring American life. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who make tons of money importing “Wacky Japanese” items and pandering to that view of the world.

  17. Brenda Make-inu wrote:

    Metropolis, the weekly English ‘zine in Tokyo, was fond of printing quotes from Miyazaki (of Studio Ghibli fame, of course). Once asked why anime characters so often had Western features, he replied along the lines of “Japanese hate their own faces.”

    I never met a woman who admitted to skin bleaching, but I knew plenty of women who straightened their hair and dyed it brown in order to appear more Western. And every drugstore I patronized would sell you glue to glue a fold into your eyelids for a more attractive, Western look–as well as devices that could be used to produce a more pointed, Western nose.

  18. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    I agree with a lot of the challenges Holly from Feministe posed against the stereotypical view that many Americans have about Japan.

    But I’m puzzled by some of the comments she has to say about Japanese sexism, specifically: “… it’s been argued that the situation of Japanese women is actually really good relative to a lot of places…. everyone agrees that women are entirely in charge and that men do not run the household. Women are generally in charge of budgets and financing, most decisions about purchases (except the most major ones, which require joint decisions), how kids are raised, etc.”

    If, as Holly mentions elsewhere, Japanese women are underrepresented in the labor force (and are disproportionately in part time or non career track jobs), can you REALLY say that Japanese women are “in charge of budgets and financing” in their families???

    On the real, if a woman is budgeting her husband’s check, and all of the household money comes from his job, how does SHE have power???

    At the end of the day it’s his name on the paycheck!

    There are some Italian American families where the husband brings home the paycheck, signs it, and, after giving the husband a small “allowance”, the wife takes care of all the family finances.

    But, since it’s the man’s money, can you REALLY say that the woman has the power?

    Getting back to Japan, in those traditional families where, allegedly, the woman “has all the power at home” because she budget’s the husband’s wages, what happens if the couple divorces?

    He still has his check – with his name on it – what does the ex-wife have?

    Remember, you only really have economic freedom if it’s YOUR name on the check – and that’s as true in Nagoya as it is in New York!

  19. dramelyrique wrote:

    Another great post, Latoya. I would like to add a couple of myths that were not mentioned.

    -Japanese children do not receive sex education

    This is completely untrue. Sex education is taught from elementary school and there is very little to no opposition in teaching children about sex in Japan.

    -Japanese men do not use condoms

    This is something I often hear from straight, white men in Japan. This also isn’t true. And how would they even know?

    As for the age of consent, it is 13 according to federal but not prefectural law. In most prefectures, it is 18 and prefecture law overrides federal law.

    As for anime and manga, please don’t make too many assumptions if you haven’t lived in Japan and watched a number of anime shows and read several comic book series. The anime and manga imported into other countries is very limited and limited to two or three genres . Anime and manga popular outside Japan are not necessarily popular in Japan and are often outdated, too.

  20. TierList E wrote:

    It’s also an complicated issue for me about the anime/manga color issue.

    Having come from an anime-influence nerd background I always noted and held on to the few darker (god bless if it were actually female!) characters I could find. They were few and far between, and rest assured the ethnicity will stop right pass the pigmentation. I would love if more shades and types would grace more anime and manga, wherever the pale non-ethnic bias is coming from.

    And wherever the origins are coming from I think they are playing into the race issues here. When I follow my few darker women around the fandom they recieve more flak (when they were not ignored entirely), the american-based fanart has a big chance of going through “whitening affect”, and when I made the mistake or bringing up those issues it was always two steps away from backsliding into “*black* women are unappealing/unmarketable/unattractive” no matter how technically non-black (Afr. American) those women really were.

  21. Bus Driver wrote:

    “As for anime and manga, please don’t make too many assumptions if you haven’t lived in Japan and watched a number of anime shows and read several comic book series. The anime and manga imported into other countries is very limited and limited to two or three genres . Anime and manga popular outside Japan are not necessarily popular in Japan and are often outdated, too.”

    The only part of this I agree with is the first part. But aside from that, I need to point out that typically ONLY the most popular and mainstream anime and manga get exported outside the country. This in combination with the fact that it is only _very_ recently that content has been tailored for Euro-American consumers, makes it very representative of what is going on in Japan. In terms of outdatedness, this is sometimes the case but is becoming less so, the window between domestic and foreign release is shrinking. Shogakukan actually arranged a simultaneous Japan-USA release of Inu-Yashiyaa for example.

    I would go further to say that unless one is very familiar with the medium, their opinion on it is not worth anything. The characters don’t look Japanese? After years of exposure to the medium, they do to me. Their body shapes are exaggerated Japanese body shapes, not Caucasian. In fact, in 99% of the cases when a foreigner is represented, there are distinct differences, and not just because of stereotypes in appearances though this is common. I know who the Japanese and the non-Japanese are in manga.

    Observations on the “weirdness” of Japan don’t count for much unless you’re knee-deep in the native “Otaku” (old definition, not the new one, ugh) culture of Japan. To quote Ghostbusters, “I have seen s—- that’ll turn you white.” I’m talking about the stuff that has never made it to America in print form and never will because no company would be insane enough to risk importing it. I will not give examples. My statement applies both to the majority of the “Japan is weird” crowd and their brand-new critics. I doubt that any of you here have seen the “best” that Japan can produce; this game does not even _touch_ (hah) the surface.

    Final point: the game in question is for domestic Japanese market. I highly doubt it will ever see a release in the USA or Europe. The body shape is de rigeur for the so-called shonen-ai and yaoi genres and the style developed way before the West was influencing manga/anime commercially in any significant way. The guys in the game are 14-17, have any of you even seen what most young Asian boys look like? God knows I have.

  22. dramelyrique wrote:

    “The only part of this I agree with is the first part. But aside from that, I need to point out that typically ONLY the most popular and mainstream anime and manga get exported outside the country. This in combination with the fact that it is only _very_ recently that content has been tailored for Euro-American consumers, makes it very representative of what is going on in Japan.”

    The most popular and influential anime and manga have not been exported (outside Asia) as far as I know. The Rose of Versailles, Doraemon, Sazaesan, Chibimaruko-chan, Kinnikuman, Uchuu Senkan Yamato, Touch, and so on. . Most anime on television in the West are either science fiction or fantasy series and not representative of what is being produced in Japan. I agree that there is a greater variety of anime and manga available these days but the most popular series tend to be the typical fighting/adventure stories while manga like Nodame Cantabile and Honey and Clover, which are incredibly popular in Japan, receive very little attention.

    Of course, what is popular in Japan won’t necessarily do well in the West but that is why I think what is imported and what is popular in Europe and the US may be more representative of Western culture than Japanese culture.

    Thank you for pointing out the original Otaku definition, by the way.

    One thing I forgot to mention was manga and anime translations.. I know for a fact that a number of manga is translated and edited into English by American university students who have only taken a few Japanese classes in high school or college and that is something to think about if you are reading English translations.

  23. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    dramelyrique –

    I’m going to have to call this one:

    “The most popular and influential anime and manga have not been exported (outside Asia) as far as I know. The Rose of Versailles, Doraemon, Sazaesan, Chibimaruko-chan, Kinnikuman, Uchuu Senkan Yamato, Touch, and so on. . Most anime on television in the West are either science fiction or fantasy series and not representative of what is being produced in Japan. I agree that there is a greater variety of anime and manga available these days but the most popular series tend to be the typical fighting/adventure stories while manga like Nodame Cantabile and Honey and Clover, which are incredibly popular in Japan, receive very little attention. ”

    I’ve never read Rose of Versailles, but I have seen it floating around in different booths at anime conventions. I also think one of my friends may have cosplayed one of the characters.

    Sazasesan, I have a copy of. I think it is less popular over here because it reads like Beetle Bailey, or some of the other older cartoon strips.

    Nodame Cantabile I have seen around, but again, I do not follow. And Honey and Clover is serialized in Shojo Beat Magazine- it’s been around for a while – I read that series along with Flowers & Bees a few years ago.

    Also –

    “One thing I forgot to mention was manga and anime translations.. I know for a fact that a number of manga is translated and edited into English by American university students who have only taken a few Japanese classes in high school or college and that is something to think about if you are reading English translations.”

    I cut two ways on this one. I can see how a lot of manga translations are done by people who aren’t super proficent, but I think that gets better with each passing year. A lot of the major publishing houses – thinking Tokyopop and Viz – tend to be more rigid in their hiring process. And from the sidebars in Shojobeat, I think the editors spend a lot of time agonizing over how to translate popular manga so it makes sense to American audiences while staying true to the original story.

  24. DivergentDana wrote:

    “I will not give examples.” Damn! Is it eroguro?

  25. Persia wrote:

    One of the most bestselling animes in Japan right now is Bleach–which has biracial characters in it and has had episodes dealing with that.

    I love, love, love Bleach for that. Saiyuki now has a Native American character I adore too.

    I too have heard of Honey and Clover and Rose of Versailles, and know fans of them both. TokyoPop and Dark Horse have both been praised for at least some of their translations– Trigun and Hellsing for Dark Horse, and the Fruits Basket and Saiyuki translations for TokyoPop. Fruits Basket is a top-seller in the US and in Japan– I think a lot of the most popular titles are translated now, though it’s too bad more of the older stuff isn’t getting brought over.

  26. dramelyrique wrote:

    “I’ve never read Rose of Versailles, but I have seen it floating around in different booths at anime conventions. I also think one of my friends may have cosplayed one of the characters.

    Sazasesan, I have a copy of. I think it is less popular over here because it reads like Beetle Bailey, or some of the other older cartoon strips.”

    I think you are talking about the manga instead of the anime? I’ve seen an English translation of the Sazaesan comic but not the anime. Same with The Roses of Versailles.

    As for Nodame and Honey and Clover, I should have been more clear. I meant that they receive very little attention compared to action-adventure type anime and manga. Not that they haven’t been translated.

    I don’t attend conventions so I’m sure there is a lot more being brought into the US than I am aware of but I am speaking in terms of mainstream access and success. Cons may provide a great way to get a hold of manga and anime you wouldn’t be able to find at home but they only happen a few times a year.

    And what about the other anime and manga I mentioned? What about the ones I didn’t mention?

    I don’t mean to attack overseas fans and their knowledge of Japanese pop culture. I think it’s great that more and more works are being imported and translated. But if you lived or grew up in Japan, I think you would be surprised at how different the manga and anime market is outside Asia. If you could read Japanese, I think you might be surprised at the translations, too.

    I’m going to try to tie this back to to the original point.. A lot perceptions of Japan and the Japanese are assumed by the limited number or specific genres of anime and manga that people see in their own country, without realizing that there is so much more out there. I don’t think anime and manga would have such a reputation for sex and violence as they do abroad if a greater variety of genres were imported into the West. I don’t think people would association big eyes and skinny legs with anime and manga as much, either. And people wouldn’t actually believe that Sailormoon or Pokemon have had a greater impact on Japanese society than Chibimarukochan, Versailles, Sazaesan, etc.

    You can certainly learn more about Japanese life and culture through individual works but when you only read certain manga, or watch a specific type of anime, your view is going to be very skewed. Foreign Otaku are probably the most extreme example. A lot of them assume everything in Japan is like Gundam, Evangelion and DBZ, even though none of those series are even set in real, present-day Japan. And when they finally do set foot in Japan, they are extremely confused and return home with a very sour perception of what they saw and experienced. They also try to talk like anime characters even though they would probably laugh if a Japanese person greeted them with a “what’s up, doc?”

    (As for Viz and Tokyopop.. I won’t mention any names but I can assure you that they have underqualified people working for them. I don’t just mean poor translators and editors but people who read and write very little Japanese. As far as I know, they were hired because they came from the same anime communities and I’m pretty sure they did not have to provide a sample of their work, or any kind of evidence to prove their proficiency in Japanese.

    I’m not sure about Darkhorse but they seem like a more professional company.)

  27. EvilAngelfish wrote:

    Can’t comment on Viz but having read both the original manga and the translations, I’d agree that Tokyo Pop was certainly hit and miss on some of their earlier offerings…maybe a result of anime community nepotism? Certainly disappointing.

  28. Persia wrote:

    As for Nodame and Honey and Clover, I should have been more clear. I meant that they receive very little attention compared to action-adventure type anime and manga. Not that they haven’t been translated.

    I think that’s somewhat universal– American action movies are the ones that get exported to the world, and in fact some are greenlighted with the expectation that they’ll do as well or better in foreign markets than they do here.

  29. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    dramelyrique –

    Looks like we’re hitting a fan gap. I’m manga based. I generally only watch original anime series, not the adaptation. (Though I must admit if one version is awkward, I’ll switch to the other.)

    I think that anime has also changed a LOT in recent years. My friends who have been con going a lot longer than I have do recall what you are talking about – lots of action, gundam, and fan service style anime. I came to it late (comparatively) in about 2003 – 2004 and when I came in, it was from the Shojo/Josei side of things. So things like H & C are familiar to people like me, who have been looking for that type of import.

    You are right in terms of mainstream TV – most of the anime that is dubbed and show focuses on action and adventure, mainly because they think there isn’t a market for anime shows targeting young women.

    I just turned in a piece for Geek magazine about con-going and anime culture – cons help with finding things that are more rare, but the shelves at my local Borders and B & N are packed with Shojo series as well.

    In terms of the other series you mentioned, I would have to ask around. Some of them look passing familar, but again, I rely a lot more on my friends who’ve been into the culture longer to know about that stuff. Sazaesan was recommended to me by a penpal.

    I’ve never lived in Japan, but I have done quite a bit of research into the various manga markets – my friend (Hae, if you are a regular reader) and I want to open up a Korean style comic store in the states, so we are trying to get a better handle for what’s out there and what we need to import. We are currently torn between modelling it after Happi comics, which we frequent, a store that caters to OLDER fans (16 and up) and imports comics specific to those demographics, or if we should try to target the store toward the younger manga fans and stock based on what is normally imported.

    I don’t read Japanese, but two of my friends are trying to do freelance translation and one tried to launch a game translation company. I don’t disagree with what you say, but they do mention how it appears that the translations are getting better with some of the new series.

    “You can certainly learn more about Japanese life and culture through individual works but when you only read certain manga, or watch a specific type of anime, your view is going to be very skewed. Foreign Otaku are probably the most extreme example.”

    Completely agree. What kind of gets me is that this view is kind of encouraged by a lot of these companies that do imports…but that’s a whole other post in itself.

    As for Viz/Tokyopop, email me offline. latoya@alteregomaniacs.com I am intrigued.

    Bus Driver –

    “I doubt that any of you here have seen the “best” that Japan can produce; this game does not even _touch_ (hah) the surface.

    Final point: the game in question is for domestic Japanese market. I highly doubt it will ever see a release in the USA or Europe. ”

    Yeah, whoops. Forgot my that my audience here may only be passing familiar with Kotaku. I forgot to mention that Kotaku tends to highlight a lot of games (and other things) that will never be released here as just a cultural note (or food for their “late night” series.)