Comments

1. javier wrote:

   I don’t know. Perhaps the second ad targets hispanics who live in the south and west, places that tend to not get lots of snow, in which case the first ad wouldn’t make a ton of sense.

   Unfortunately, evaluating demographics for ads is inherently a lot like stereotyping, or at least profiling. This one seems relatively benign.

   Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 8:36 am ¶

2. Keiko wrote:

   First of all, I have no love for Kleenex because the tissues are made from 100% virgin fiber taken from ancient forests.

   But back to the issue: I’m taking a marketing class right now and it’s shocking to see how often companies buy into stereotypes in order to target specific market segments. Sometimes they make sense; most often they just serve to reinforce stereotypes. In order to judge this ad, I’d need to know exactly who they are targeting. I mean, if they’re targeting Latinos living in mild climates who are familiar with snowball fights, then it’s pretty shameless. If this ad is running in the Caribbean or equatorial South America, then the target audience is probably a lot more familiar with football than snowballs.

   Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 9:06 am ¶

3. Aaminah wrote:

   Hmm. I don’t know how I feel about that. I think it’s nice that they are trying to be culturally relevent. But then I think “are they saying Latinos don’t know what snow is? Are they saying all Latinos play futbol and futbol is somehow a cultural indicator of Latino-ism?”.

   Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 9:08 am ¶

4. Ali wrote:

   This seems like one of many ads I’ve seen lately where the ethnic audience ad is exactly the same as the general (white) audience version only they substitute a Latina/o (Asian, black, etc.) model for the original white one. Does anyone have any insight into who is creating the POC versions of these ads? Major brands used to farm their “niche” adwork for ethnic clients out to ethnic owned agencies. Now it seems as though the big agencies are just making multiple versions of the same ad directed at various audiences. Do they have POC in house contributing input to these ads? Or are white people at major agencies conducting research on what they think POC audiences want to see thus coming up with crappy ads like this one? Is that why some of these ads are so heavily steeped in lameness and stereotypes? What do Kleenex even have to do with soccer or sports!? So many questions…

   Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 9:10 am ¶

5. Ali wrote:

   Great point Keiko. It would help a great deal, from an evaluative standpoint, to know what markets this ad is running in.

   Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 9:13 am ¶

6. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

   That second ad MIGHT be appropriate if it was going to be used in South America (and I’m not even too sure about that - since I’m sure folks in Argentina, Chile, Bolivia and the mountanous parts of Peru know about snowballs, since they get some serious winter weather down there).

   But, at least in the greater New York area, many Latinos (Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Dominicans) are more into baseball than futbol (”soccer”) - and of course, they know about snowballs (all you have to do is watch the Dominican kids on my block during a snowstorm to see that clearly)

   Beyond that, there is a very racialized thinking here - Latinos won’t understand snowball fights (even those who’ve lived for y ears in snowy American cities like New York, Chicago, Denver ect), so we have to throw in a soccer ball for them to ‘get it’.

   Sorry Kleenex, that’s just not cool!!!

   Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 9:39 am ¶

7. Cynthia wrote:

   You know, before I read the post, I thought the entry was about quinceaneras!

   Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 9:53 am ¶

8. Aaminah wrote:

   Ha! Cynthia, that’s better than what I initially thought from the title before I got to the ads…

   Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 10:04 am ¶

9. Joanna wrote:

   Maybe they think that non-Latinos aren’t as into soccer as Latinos… which is probably true among adults in the U.S.

   But I agree it’s a little sketchy… They should’ve done both ads in both languages.

   Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 12:12 pm ¶

10. Elton wrote:

    “General Market” = white. And we all know white people love them some snow! I mean, snow is white, tissues are white, and white people are white, so there you go. A match made in advertising heaven.

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 12:32 pm ¶

11. ilana wrote:

    I am, of course, very much against racial/ethnic profiling and stereotyping- but this really seems fairly benign. As has been said above, it may be that the “Latino” ad was meant to run further south, where people don’t generally have snowball fights, race regardless. I really think, as issues of this nature go, there’s a lot more out there that’s much more important, that could be focussed on. This seems like a bit of an overreaction.

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 1:02 pm ¶

12. HighJive wrote:

    Hey, all these comments are thoughtful and certainly valid. And appreciated too. My observation derived from many years of viewing (and even producing) advertising targeting Latino audiences. Clients, in their demands to make culturally-targeted advertising overtly targeted, will push for stereotypes. Or perhaps it’s better to say they push for blatant cultural cues that inevitably become stereotypes when everyone is using the same cues. In a nutshell, you’d be hard-pressed to peruse any Latino-targeted publication and not find at least one ad with forced soccer imagery. Another note: Latino advertising agencies are often working with smaller production budgets than the general market (i.e., White) agencies. It’s interesting to note that both ads use the exact same Kleenex ball—the Latino agency wasn’t even able to produce their own tissue wad.

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 2:42 pm ¶

13. nola wrote:

    Invoking bad memories….
    I remember going on a ski trip in the 4th grade. I was so excited until the counselor said, ” Hey! Your probably the first Mexican to ever see snow ! ”
    She was so happy for me too.

    What she didn’t know - I had grandparents living in Colorado.

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 4:21 pm ¶

14. jd wrote:

    Nola - she also clearly didn’t know the historic boundaries of Mexico.

    I have to agree, though, with the people who don’t have a problem with the Spanish ad if it’s running in multiple markets, including those that don’t get snow. It’s not that people there haven’t seen snowball fights (they have TV), but it’s not racist to think that snow isn’t really going to resonate with people who don’t see it in their backyards (and don’t associate it with their winter colds). The baseball point is well taken, but again, it might be meant to run in all Spanish-speaking markets (possible including Spain?).

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 10:06 pm ¶

15. dan wrote:

    HighJive,

    Nice observation and comment. I just wonder if anyone knows exactly where they’re placing them. I know you say the ‘Snow’ version is the General Market ad and the ‘Soccer’ version is Latino/a.

    I bring this up because I noticed the ‘Snow’ version is in the new edition of Latina magazine ad not ‘Soccer’.

    Maybe they were very selective where ‘Soccer’ was placed?

    Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 12:50 am ¶

16. Aaminah wrote:

    Dan,

    Good catch seeing that the “Snow” version is in the new Latina issue. BUT, that’s probably because Latina is published for North American Latinas (i.e. it’s not meant to be relevent or distributed outside the U.S.) and some crazy notion may be at play that WOMEN aren’t into futbol. Afterall, Latina only very very rarely refers to sports at all, and then only to highlight women athletes (understandable since it’s a women’s mag). That said, it would hardly be the first time that Latina magazine didn’t “speak to” real North American Latinas either.

    Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 7:29 am ¶

17. Dan wrote:

    Aaminah,
    You make some great points. That bring up some semi-rhetorical questions in my mind.

    - I can’t think of any major latina sports figures. Is this mostly a result of race or/and culture? Women of all other ethnicities are fairly well represented in the major ‘womens’ sports (tennis, golf, soccer) and sports at amateur levels in the US.

    - On Latina magazine not ’speaking to’ real North American Latinas, do you see this more in the editorial or advertising? If it’s mostly in the advertising, do you think the publisher’s need to do a better job screening ads and face losing money? Or accept the ads while building strong editorial content with the notion the readership is smart enough to see ineffective marketing?

    Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 11:59 am ¶

18. HighJive wrote:

    Actually, the snow version runs in General Market and Culturally-Targeted publications. First spotted the snow version in Jet magazine. Expect them to inevitably produce a basketball/Kleenex wad version for the Black publications.

    Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 12:01 pm ¶

19. Angel H. wrote:

    I shutter to think how the Kleenex ad for Jet magazine would look!

    Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 2:50 pm ¶

20. Aaminah wrote:

    Dan,

    Question 1 I will have to get back to you on.

    Question 2: It’s a mix. The ads are TERRIBLE but the actual content and models aren’t better. My husband was the one who first asked what trash I was reading. We sat down with a stack (I had a subscription) and counted faces. They streamline a “white” Latina view throughout. No indios, no blacks. The few truly colored looking faces are in ads like Revlon (those ads are not Latino-styled, they are the same ads you see everywhere). Also, no curvy women. My husband’s complaint was that he looked through it and said “where are my daughters represented in this?”. They aren’t. Neither are most of my Latina friends, from a wide variety of backgrounds. The closest they come to showing “real” Latinas is when they do this feature where they show three “real” women how to dress for their bodies. And even then, the complaints are things like “I’m short” rather than “I’m a size 18″ or “my lovely ass won’t fit in those jeans”. Latinas come in a range of shades from the whitest white to the darkest black, and in a range of sizes as well. But I didn’t see that represented in the magazine. I have other issues with the magazine as well, related to class issues, trying to speak to ALL American Latina culture and therefore not really speaking much to any, and being too fluffy (though they have tackled some tough issues too), but that’s just me. Let’s just say, I live in and am part of a huge Latina community and I don’t know a single Latina woman who subscribes to it (which is not to say none do, but if any do they don’t talk about it, it isn’t in their stacks at their house etc). Nor is it in our salons or shops.

    Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 3:08 pm ¶

21. Iris wrote:

    Well, I got to say, I don’t know if I would start throwing stones to Kleenex for the ad.
    Back in my country of origin is VERY rare to find a person that doesn’t love fútbol (soccer) and I know that because I was one of those rare people and I felt sort of like an outcast every time a game was on TV and almost the whole country would freeze. I heard that in Brazil they even declared holiday when they won the World Cup some years ago.
    I lived in Ohio and now in Nevada and snowed in both places, and I’ve seen tons of Latinos enjoying ice skating and skying at Lake Tahoe and in spring/summer going bananas to play soccer.
    We conducted some focus groups for a marketing campaign and almost every group mentioned soccer games as a good place to put ads because they considered it was a perfect spot for the rest of the Latino community to see them.
    I know is very stereotyping but based on the responses we got on our focus groups pointing towards soccer seemed like a effective way to catch Latinos attention.
    And just in a brief note, in South America we have snow, lots of them. Not in the cities maybe, but remember that The Andes are very close to any urban area, and in Chile, for example, we have some very awesome Sky Resorts. Great vacation tip right here ;P

    Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 4:06 pm ¶

22. HighJive wrote:

    Aaminah,

    You might be interested in checking out this post:

    http://adage.com/bigtent/post?article_id=125653

    Iris,

    Again, I have no doubt that soccer appeals to Latinos. But when so many advertisers use it to appeal to the audience, it becomes a marketing stereotype. Focus groups only tell you what consumers think on literal levels. The groups rarely identify a breakthrough way to capture an audience’s attention. In the end, advertising and marketing must distinguish itself from the competition and overall clutter.

    Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 5:11 pm ¶

23. HighJive wrote:

    Meant to say, “In the end, advertising and marketing must distinguish BRANDS from the competition and overall clutter.”

    Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 5:12 pm ¶

24. Iris wrote:

    I just realized that I omitted a detail in my previous comment. The focus groups were exclusively Latino.
    Sorry about that.

    Posted 15 Mar 2008 at 12:08 am ¶

25. Occams Razor wrote:

    I don’t find this surprising in the slightest. It’s no secret that in many Latin American countries, people will relate more to soccer than snow, because, well, soccer is popular and they rarely get any snow (being in the southern hemisphere and all).

    In my country, Australia, we rarely have snow themed ads, because there’s very little snow here.

    Are these ads racist? No. They are merely trying to do what makes sense - the ads should appeal to the market they are aiming for, and soccer is very popular in South America, Mexico, etc. Just like how ads in the US involve basketball, but in Australia, they often involve Rugby (we don’t really play basketball in Australia).

    Posted 17 Mar 2008 at 4:25 am ¶

26. Dan wrote:

    Thanks Aaminah!
    Your view has enlightened me and provided additional thoughts to be mindful of when working with/observing Latina culture and media.

    Posted 18 Mar 2008 at 9:49 am ¶

27. Aaminah wrote:

    High Jive - thanks for the article. That was really interesting and on-point.

    Iris - I’m just curious, not trying to argue, just asking: when you say your focus groups were “exclusively Latino”, how “inclusive” were they in that regard? Because what I see locally is that “Latino” is taken to mean almost exclusively “Mexican”. Now, that is a huge chunk of our community, but it is equally rivaled by Guatemalens, and a HUGE chunk of the Guatemalens are actually Mayan. And there are significant pockets of other Latinos that are not “invited” to participate in things or marginalized. So, I’m just curious if your company factors that in and intentionally seeks out Latinos from a variety of countries and skin tones.

    Dan - No prob. Glad I could help, and sorry if any of it comes off snotty. I also haven’t bothered with the magazine in about 3 years now, so I can’t really speak to if it has improved since then. But I know when I was a subscriber (for about 4-5 years), it was a regular comment made, that they were striving to be inclusive and yet somehow it seemed to be all talk and no display, kwim?

    Posted 18 Mar 2008 at 10:30 am ¶

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