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1. Grand Theft Racial Identity: Who Gets to Define You? at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 24 Mar 2008 at 7:06 am

   […] I’ve been watching the flow of this conversation with great […]

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1. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

   Lia Neal is AWESOME - in the very near future, she WILL be up on the podium hearing the Star Spangled Banner when they put that medal around her neck.

   But - how come when Black people with a bit of non-Black ancestry do great things, suddenly we become “biracial”?

   Even folks - like Neal and Tiger Woods - who CLEARLY LOOK BLACK???

   You can bet that if somebody with Neal’s ancestry and appearance was getting arrested, or becoming a teenage single mom, she would NOT be “biracial” - she would be “African American”!!!

   I’m sorry, this country has always had the “one drop rule” - there are no “mulattoes” here. That rule sure as hell applies when we get arrested or indicted - why shouldn’t it apply when we win the Masters or get a Gold Medal in the Olympics?

   Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 12:03 pm ¶

2. Black Canseco wrote:

   The co-opting pain story bugged me to no end. This chick decided to pass off the hardships of innercity ganglife as her own history for a book deal.

   It came off as a real world Julia Styles/Vanilla Ice angle.

   And what’s sad is no matter how often this level of cultural plagiarism occurs among white authors/writers—James Frey, Stephen Glass, Mike Barnicle, Timothy S. Goeglein, Elizabeth Wurtzel,
   Vanilla Ice, etc. it will always be the Jason Blairs of the world who catch it the worst.

   I wrote another piece on this if anyone’s interested:
   http://knockthehustleblog.typepad.com/hustleknockin/2008/03/white-womans-st.html

   Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 3:03 pm ¶

3. Black Canseco wrote:

   G.A.B.,

   Folks like Tiger Woods, Cameron Diaz, Martin Sheen, Ted Williams and a couple others have proven that if you don’t want to be identified as being “too ethnic” and you’re willing to “fight” hard enough then you can be as ethnically ambiguous as you choose to be.

   it’s so sad that there’s a value-system assigned to various ethnicities which drives much of this, but regardless there’s still something very self-hateful (?) working so hard to pick sides.

   with that said, i hope Lia doesn’t reach a level to where she decides that being an “individual” is exclusive to being multi-ethnic.

   Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 4:56 pm ¶

4. Eric wrote:

   @Gregory A. Butler

   Perhaps you haven’t had enough exposure to Asians. Tiger Woods looks like a lot of SE Asians in his facial features. I haven’t seen him in person, but judging by photographs, many are also nearly as dark as him. And finally, he identifies himself as biracial. Why would you deny him the heritage that he claims?

   As another example, take Amerie Rogers. I’m guessing that, to you, she looks Black. However, given that she’s half Korean, she has lived in Korea, and Korean is her first language, how do you think she identifies herself? Just Black?

   These are people with more than “a bit of non-Black ancestry”–they all have one Black parent and one Asian parent. Are you suggesting that Blackness trumps Asianness? Or perhaps, since they all have Black fathers and Asian mothers, that the patrilineal heritage is the more important of the two? Please clarify.

   Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 5:01 pm ¶

5. Black Canseco wrote:

   i’m seeing more and more articles from ethnic/POC bloggers about the rift between Feminists and Feminists of Color. (i used to listen to a bit of this growing up among the women in my family…)

   it’s funny how all of so-called feminists didn’t see Carol Moseley Braun as being “woman enough” to swear allegiance to her doing her presidential run…

   it still seems as if WOC are second-class within the feminist movement, unless they are fighting and screaming to support only the most mainstream/anglo-friendly of positions…

   i could be wrong.

   Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 5:04 pm ¶

6. Black Canseco wrote:

   i have to agree with Gregory that there’s a sense of pressure for POC to deny/downplay their blackness/ african-ancestry if they want maximum acceptance from mainstreamers and non-blacks.

   it’s similar to the old Dave Chappelle Cultural Draft skit, where “good” celebs like Tiger Woods have to pick sides. I think if black folks felt more accepted as is, there wouldn’t be the tension to pick sides.

   Question: Would Cameron Diaz or Martin Sheen or Raquel Welch been as successful had they proclaimed their respective latino ancestries earlier in their careers?

   Ted Williams (hailed as the greatest hitter in baseball history might not have even been allowed to play in the MLB had he made his Mexican ancestry (mom) more of an issue. Roy Campanella (Hall of Famer)is equal parts black and italian, yet do italians celebrate his playing career as much as players with italian+non-black backgrounds? No. And no one makes issue of it, either.

   Recently Hines Ward’s embracement of his Japanese ancenstry was couched as “novel” due to america’s view of him as Black.

   BTW: what’s funniest about Tiger Woods’ to me is that no matter what he’s said of his make up over the years, all the slurs/slights directed towards him are consistently anti-black.

   Kelly Tilghman and Fuzzy Zoeller, etc. didn’t make chopstick jokes, martial arts jokes, tourist jokes, or any of the other slurs associated with people of asian ancestry. They went for the lynching and fried chicken punchlines…

   When Woods was tied to a tree as a child and white kids spray-painted the N-word on his chest, why didn’t they add an anti-Korean/anti-Asian slur as well?

   That says a lot, not only about him but how we see POC’s of mixed heritage when black is in the mix.

   Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 5:20 pm ¶

7. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

   Eric,

   I live in New York City, where many East Asian descended folks live.

   My first on-the-books job was at the Pathmark supermarket on Pike Slip and Cherry St in Chinatown. A majority of my coworkers and most of the customers were Chinese American.

   After that, I worked in a pizza oven factory for over two years, where about half of my coworkers were Vietnamese or Cambodian.

   So, no I wouldn’t say that I “haven’t had enough exposure to Asians”.

   I also know what African Americans look like - being one myself.

   And, if I were to see either Nia Lial or Tiger Woods on the street, and I didn’t know who they were, I would clearly be able to tell that they were African American - and most other Americans, White Black or for that matter Asian, would agree with me.

   More importantly, if Tiger Woods was a caddy, instead of the greatest golfer of his generation, he’d be considered BLACK.

   Hell, to that White sportscaster who joked about White golfers “taking him to a back alley and lynching him” Tiger Woods STIL IS BLACK - not “calibinasian”.

   Same thing with that talented young swimmer - if Nia Lial were a teenaged single mom, or a kid in a special ed class, she would be AFRICAN AMERICAN.

   But, she’s a successful swimmer, with a bright future ahead of her, and all of the sudden she’s “biracial”.

   Do you get my point?

   Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 5:28 pm ¶

8. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

   I MEANT to write “Lia Nial” in the previous post - sorry, I get a little dyslexic sometimes!!!

   Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 5:33 pm ¶

9. tasha wrote:

   You all make valid points. Gregory’s right about how the press would characterize Neal if she was involved in something illegal or shameful, but at the same time, both parents should be acknowledged. Tiger Woods IS bi-racial, and so is Lia Neal. However, not every bi-racial person with African ancestry tries to eschew it like Tiger Woods (as Black Conseco suggests).

   I, for one, like to hear about the child prodigies AFTER they’ve accomplished something significant on the domestic or international scene (national/world title or high ranking/placed near top in major contest), not just qualified for something significant. You know, like teenage Williams sisters, or Fu Mingxia, who won her first 10m platform diving world title at twelve years old and her first Olympic title at 13 in Barcelona, Dominique Moceanu, who won the US senior gymnastics championships at 13/ Olympic gold in team competition at 14, or a 17 year old Allyson Felix who was ranked in the top ten in the US in the 200m before winning silver a year later in that event in Athens.

   Black swimmers are slowly managing to become more and more prominant on the US and international scene like Anthony Ervin (Sydney, gold 400m relay) and Maritza Correia (silver, 4×100 Athens). France’s Malia Matella won the silver in the 50m free Athens women’s final. Look out for Cullen Jones (Jersey, stand up!) in Beijing! He’s out of St. Benedict’s and NC State and won the 50m free at Nationals in 06’ and the silver medal in that event at the world titles in Melbourne, as well as a gold with Michael Phelps in the 4×100 relay.

   Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 5:46 pm ¶

10. Eric wrote:

    Ah, I see where you’re coming from. I think we’re talking about two different things–how society perceives them, vs. how they perceive themselves. That wasn’t clear in your first comment. BTW Black Canseco, Hines Ward is half-Korean, not half-Japanese (I know you don’t think that’s the same thing, but just in case).
    I disagree that they “downplay their blackness” in order to be more accepted by the mainstream. As far as I can tell, they are simply identifying in a way that is authentic to their own experience as mixed-race individuals. Consider mixed-race entertainers in Asian countries, such as Crystal Kay or Tasha (of Tashannie). Being half-Black and half-Asian in an Asian environment, how would they downplay their Blackness? If anything, they have leveraged it for more credibility, as stupid as that makes their audiences out to be. Does Tyson Beckford downplay his Blackness? How about Kelis?
    Naomi Campbell? Sean Paul?
    Also, I’m not claiming that Tiger Woods doesn’t look Black. I’m saying he also looks Asian, since it is possible to be both, and this is in fact how he sees himself. If he were a caddy, do you think his racial self-perception would change? To those in the media who go out and interview successful biracial individuals, especially in the case of Lia Neal, who would obviously need the consent and likely presence of her parents for an interview, the parents’ different races would likely be obvious and would be considered notable. There is still a lot of credence in the public mind to the idea of hybrid vigor, and it sells. That doesn’t make her biracial heritage any less authentic. Your first comment suggested that successful people should not identify as biracial, simply because criminals don’t get to.

    BTW, I didn’t mean you literally didn’t have enough exposure to Asians. I apologize if that came off as insulting to your experience or background. What I was implying was that you seem to be holding a narrow view of what people with Asian heritage are supposed to look like. This view is often used to suggest that Asians are all the same and therefore easily replaceable, even expendable, so pardon me if I take some wary caution when that notion is reinforced. There’s more to Asians than straight black hair and slanted eyes.

    I hope you see my point as well.

    Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 6:59 pm ¶

11. Eric wrote:

    On further consideration, I have to take particular issue with one question posed by Black Canseco:

    “Question: Would Cameron Diaz or Martin Sheen or Raquel Welch been as successful had they proclaimed their respective latino ancestries earlier in their careers?”

    So here you are suggesting that being perceived as having ethnic (Latino/a in these cases) heritage would limit these actors’ potential success. Perhaps it would, and that might explain the discrepancy between the careers of Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen, though there may be other factors as well. However, take that premise and put it in a context similar to that of the original article. Are you suggesting that having Asian heritage would be more advantageous to an actor’s career than not? Empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Maybe i’m reading you wrong, but I’m seeing the implication that Asian is basically the “poor man’s white.”

    Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 7:27 pm ¶

12. Black Canseco wrote:

    i’m not implying “asian” is the poor man’s anything. i’m simply suggesting that people of mixed ancestry, particularly those in public arenas such as entertainment/politics and certain corporate industries, often benefit from presenting themselves as close to anglo as possible.

    but it’s hard to deny that in more than a few instances, the “less black” you are perceived as being, usually the more accepted you are.

    i think people get pigeon-holed along a racial hierarchy unfortunately. the positive stereotypes regarding whites (hard work, character, individualism, patriotism) often differ from those boxes affiliated with more ethnic folks… ergo the further along the continuum…

    Posted 08 Mar 2008 at 10:58 pm ¶

13. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Question: Would Cameron Diaz or Martin Sheen or Raquel Welch been as successful had they proclaimed their respective latino ancestries earlier in their careers?”

    For the latter two, the question is quite valid, but for the former, the answer is clearly “yes.” Throughout her career as a model and actress, Cameron Diaz has never gone by any other surname, as far as I know. If you have a Latin surname and keep it, you’re “out” as a Latin person, no matter what your choice of hair dye is.

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 1:00 am ¶

14. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Eric,

    I do see your point.

    But, I’d like to emphasize a cold hard reality of American racial politics. Whatever folks might THINK they are, in America, if you have any significant Black ancestry, you are considered Black.

    In my case, my father was part Irish and part Swedish, and my mom had a great grandfather who was Scottish and another one who was Lumbee Indian.

    But, other than the Scotsman and the Native American in the family tree, most of my mom’s ancestors were African American, so, by American standards, I’m Black, like it or not.

    A long time ago, I decided to like it.

    I know quite a few people with similar heritage to mine - I know a guy who’s half Italian and half Black, another guy who is half Irish and half Black and a woman who is half Ethiopian, one quarter Hawaiian and one quarter Irish.

    Guess what race these folks are all considered to be?

    If you said African American, you guessed right.

    Like me, they all chose to accept that racial identity.

    Now, there are folks who try and run from being Black (cause, after all, it DOES really suck to be of African descent in this country!).

    But you really can’t run… with the narrow exception if you are very successful in a field where normally only White folks succeed.

    That’s why Tiger Woods began his golf career as an African American man - but, when he began to win, suddenly he became “biracial” and when he won the Masters (an appropriate name for a tournament held at a segregated country club in a former Confederate slave state!) suddenly he’s “Calibanasian”!!!

    Of course, to that sportscaster who made the lynching “joke” - Mr Woods is still Black, Thai mother notwithstanding.

    And you can bet if Woods ever has a tax evasion problem, or gets accused of abusing his White Swedish wife, NOBODY is going to be calling him “biracial” - he’ll suddenly go back to being 100% identified with the Black community, like it or not.

    Quite frankly, I suspect the Asian community - both here and on the other side of the Pacific -isn’t that quick to claim Black folks with part Asian ancestry either.

    Let’s be honest here, Korean mother or not, does ANYBODY in Korea - or among the Korean American community - actually claim Amerie as being Korean?

    Especially since she looks Black, sings Black oriented music and has a totally non Korean name!

    And especially since there is a long and ugly history of Amerasian kids - in particular half Black Amerasian kids - being treated quite shabbily in Korea, Vietnam, the Philipines, Japan, Thailand and everywhere else in East Asia that has had the misfortune of a long term US military occupation.

    Of course, that disdain for Ameriasian kids comes from an honest place - a LOT of those children were born of rapes of local women by American soldiers (rapes that went unpunished for the most part by US military authorities) - so I could see why folks would see those children as daily reminders of that trauma.

    All the more reason that we should recognize that, on the real, folks who are half Asian and half Black might as well be considered 100% Black, cause they sure as hell aren’t going to be accepted by their Asian race of origin.

    Now, before you get it twisted, White folks are the same way.

    Remember, I’m half Irish (and, as I mentioned above, I actually know a couple of other biracial Black folks who have Irish ancestry).

    And people who are half Irish half Black are most definitely NOT ACCEPTED AS IRISH or even as half Irish by the Irish community, either here or over in Ireland.

    In fact, Ireland is in the process of stripping Irish citizenship from the Irish born offspring of non EU immigrants (which, in practice, means Black and Asian immigrants).

    Or, as some of my Irish immigrant coworkers never hesitate to remind me “you might be half Irish, but that’s NOT THE HALF THAT SHOWS!!!”

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 1:24 am ¶

15. Michelle wrote:

    I had a conversation with two women….both half Korean and half Black. During the course of the conversation, I made references to them being “non-Black” or “Bi-racial”. They were quick to correct me. They were Black. Period. No questions. I was very confused. I didn’t know how to address them, meaning, I didn’t know whether to address them the way I would a Black woman, or the way I would someone who was “non-Black”.

    They explained that while they grew up in various parts of the world (between them, Korea, Los Angeles, Detroit, to name a few) there were a few constants. They explained that 1. The overwhelming sentiment from the Korean community that there were exposed to was that if you were half Black, you were Black. They explained that within the Korean community, solely based upon their exposure to it, there was a feeling that in order to be truly korean, you couldn’t really be anything else. They also expressed feeling looked down upon because of their Black ancestry. 2. That Black people, while complicated (basically Black women who were jealous of their hair) were in their opinion, more welcoming or open. They felt that while they ancestry other than Black, it didn’t seem to hold as much importance as the fact that they did have Black ancestry. 3. Famous people get to choose. Famous people get to decide to be something like “Cabiliasian” or “Don’t ask, don’t tell” or “Mariahan”. They felt like, being Biracial themselves, not having the privilege of fame, they were just regular Black folk. Now, those were just their comments. They in no way represent all Korean or Asian or for that matter Black people. It was just the experience of two Black women who saw themselves as Black, not half Black and Korean. Also, you should read about Hines Ward and what he and his mother experienced when they were in Korea and in the US. It is especially interesting to read about his triumphant NFL super star return to Korea and his wonderful works and his mother’s response to the whole thing. Interesting and inspiring stories about love, triumph and us all just getting along.

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 3:47 am ¶

16. Michelle wrote:

    And I will not be going to see that MIT movie! I am protesting that bull! There should have been far more people of color in far more prominent roles. Bull, I say, bull!

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 3:50 am ¶

17. jstele wrote:

    I agree that the Korean community does not always accept mixed-race children as fully Korean or just part of their community. But that does not mean they see half-black children as black. They actually refer to them as mixed.

    I think the whole one-drop rule is stupid. In the first place, it was enforced against people with black and white ancestry. In the second place, it does not reflect the true identity of mixed race individuals.

    I object to the notion that if you are a mixed race individual with any black ancestry, you MUST identify as black and nothing else. Otherwise, you are a sellout. Otherwise, you are trying to get acceptance from the greater society. If you’re half black and half white, that’s what you are. Period. Even if society treats you as black, nothing can deny the reality of who you are. You’re mixed and society is wrong. I can understand why some people would choose that identity because they feel more accepted by the black community. But that’s their choice, not anyone else’s.

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 9:41 am ¶

18. EH wrote:

    I don’t think anyone is denying the technicality of their racial mix-up. I would think most bi/multi-racial individuals know “Well I’m half and half .”

    But I have to agree with what was said above regarding the societal aspect. If you are half black or are perceived as black by the majority of people you encounter due to African ancestory, then as far as society is concerned you are black. That’s it.

    Despite the one drop rule and it’s intended effects I do think it’s done some good things such as give African-Americans a more welcoming mentality to individuals without being completely hung up over their racial mix-up. I also think it helps some in terms of identity issues. I’m friends with many black bi-racial individuals and it’s very rare when I encounter any who don’t identify as black. And all of them seemed to prefer it that way.

    On the flip side though I realize there are some people who would like to identify as they prefer and that’s not always due to self-hate or trying to sellout. I’m sure there are some bi-racial blacks out there who feel that way too but I think that’s kind of rare in the black community.

    But as was mentioned earlier, there are some people who will bend over backwards to disassociate from being perceived as black (which isn’t possible no matter how hard they try).

    The one drop rule is outdated, antiquated, and was formed with racist intentions. At the same time however I wouldn’t do away with it. I know it’s selfish but I’d rather have more individuals identifying with the black community than another racial classification. As if we need any more of those.

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 11:20 am ¶

19. EH wrote:

    To clarify my third paragraph should say it makes African-Americans more welcoming to *black bi-racial* individuals. In general I don’t think African-Americans are more welcoming than anybody.

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 11:22 am ¶

20. tasha wrote:

    “So here you are suggesting that being perceived as having ethnic (Latino/a in these cases) heritage would limit these actors’ potential success. Perhaps it would, and that might explain the discrepancy between the careers of Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen, though there may be other factors as well. However, take that premise and put it in a context similar to that of the original article. Are you suggesting that having Asian heritage would be more advantageous to an actor’s career than not? Empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Maybe i’m reading you wrong, but I’m seeing the implication that Asian is basically the “poor man’s white.”

    @Eric

    Using Charlie and Emilio is a bad example for several reasons. The first of which is that Emilio seems to have focused his attentions on producing and directing (“Bobby,” which Emilio has said took nearly ten years to get made), while Charlie has focused more on acting. Also, both brothers look Anglo, and in theory, according to your logic, Emilio should be the more the more famous of the two, considering that he’s the one with the blondish hair and blue eyes. Emilio’s surname does not negate his appearance. You could say the same about Cameron Diaz. If Cameron had browner skin or looked more ethnic, in theory, it would interfere with her career, but she, much like Christina Aguilera, Keanu Reeves, Martin Sheen, and his sons are perceived as white.

    Being perceived as any type of ethnic, other than white, has the potential to limit success in Hollywood, and more often than not, when bi-racial Asians get cast, they are usually the ones that are half white like Lindsey Pierce in “Lipstick Jungle” or Maggie Q (MI3, Balls of Fury, Live Free or Die Hard), but even then, the Asian actors cast in tv/film, in the US anyway, tend not to be biracial, like Sandra Oh, or Lucy Liu, Zhang Ziyi, Rick Yune, Shu Qi, Kelly Hu, those actors on Lost, Chow Yun Fat, Ken Watanabe etc. So, it’s not like being a bi-racial half white Asian is going to give you a leg up in Hollywood, the way it might, if you are a half white, black woman (Halle Berry/Thandi Newton ). However, Maggie Q was born and raised in Hawaii but gained notoriety as a model/actress in Hong Kong, and Maggie’s success there was due in no small part to her being half white. I sincerely doubt that a half black and Asian actress/model could go to HK and have as much success as she did.

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 12:06 pm ¶

21. tasha wrote:

    Oh, I’m sorry, that’s Lindsay Price not Pierce

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 12:16 pm ¶

22. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Michelle,

    Don’t know why you were confused when your two friends who were Black women with a Korean parent identified as 100% Black.

    Most Black people with non Black ancestry learn damned quick that their non Black ethnic group of origin DOES NOT AND NEVER WILL ACCEPT THEM.

    I learned that about the Irish community when I was barely old enough to walk.

    So we end up identifying as Black - because, socially, that is exactly what we are!

    Remember, America has no “Mulattoes” - just Light Skinned Blacks!!!

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 1:07 pm ¶

23. Torontonian wrote:

    Black Canseco,

    I don’t understand. You say that you’re not saying “Asian” is the poor man’s anything, yet you say that the less black you are perceived, the more accepted you are, even if the other half is Asian.

    Within politics, modelling, acting, and music, it’s easier for “black” people to make it compared to “Asian” people. Would Kimora Lee Simmons, Foxy Brown, and Naomi Campbell make it if they were perceived as “Asian”? I doubt it. American-born Americans like Bruce Lee and Canadian-born Canadians like Edison Chen had to go to Hong Kong to achieve fame, because the North American entertainment industry does not look highly upon Asians. It is well-known that Asians are underrepresented in the media:

    “A study of Asian Americans in prime-time television […] shows that Asians, who make up 5 percent of the U.S. population, play 2.7 percent of regular characters. It also shows virtually no Asian actors are on situation comedies, and the characters they play in dramas tend to have less depth than most regulars, with minimal on-screen time and few romantic roles.”

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 1:23 pm ¶

24. islandgirl550 wrote:

    As I’ve mentioned on this site before, I am of Cuban, Jamaican, and Japanese ancestry and I am a black American (and I look black — whatever that means.)

    Hollywood has issues with how they perceive Latinos or Hispanics. They think all Hispanics look like J-lo or Eva Longoria. Well they don’t. I am afro Cuban and Cameron Diaz is Cuban as well. If she were to fully embrace the fact that she is in part Latina she WOULD NOT be working as much. And, Angelina Jolie would be taking her roles. Thandie Newton is part white and for whatever reason we rarely see her in films. Also, I didn’t find out until recently that Lynda Carter is half Mexican. Don’t think she would have played Wonder Woman if she embraced that.

    Haven’t there been many entertainers/performers/writers with black blood that have chosen to hide it? Carole Channing and Bliss Broyard’s famous father (I forget his name) are two that come to mind.

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 5:09 pm ¶

25. Michelle wrote:

    Hey Greg,

    I am not from Cali, but I went to undergrad in N. Cali and now live in SoCal. My midwestern/east coast upbringing taught me a few things. In particular, “Black is Black”, “Black people got to stick together”, “If your mama or daddy is black, you black!” I never questioned those teachings until I got to college. I had to wrap my brain around Cabiliasian, and the idea that there were a lot of people out there who just didn’t see themselves as Black, regardless of what they looked like or who their parents were. After being rebuked and rebuffed and at best, gently reminded that just because I thought a person was Black, that didn’t mean that they identified as Black. I began to train myself to just assume that Biracial people or people who look Biracial WOULD NOT identify as Black. So, these ladies confused me with not only identifying as Black, but looking at me like I was crazy for thinking they were anything else.

    I would say that things have changed a lot for Latino actors in Hollywood. Who was the woman who shaved her hairline, dyed her hair, changed her name and was seen as a White woman? Was it Rita Hayworth or Ava Gardner. Anyway, due to America’s sad racial heirarchy, Latinos have been able to move more freely through Hollywood. But let’s not play oppresion olympics. I think that the present day success of Latinas is due to the tenacity of people like JLo (yes, indeed) and Salma Hayek who refused to be denied their success nor the success of everyone who looks like them. Salma Hayek is responsible for the careers of many Latina actresses. So, kudos to the women and men who have changed the game. And perhaps Zoe Saldana’s insistence on being seen as Latina will open the door for darker skinned, curly haired Latinas.

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 8:29 pm ¶

26. donna darko wrote:

    it’s funny how all of so-called feminists didn’t see Carol Moseley Braun as being “woman enough” to swear allegiance to her doing her presidential run…

    Nah she was my first choice until she dropped out. I was the only person in town to say it and it was embarrassing because people laughed when I said she was my first choice.

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 9:05 pm ¶

27. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Michelle,

    Perhaps the Light Skinned Blacks you went to school with were “in denial” or were trying to negotiate their own personal escape from Blackness by playing the “biracial” card.

    They’re lucky they were in an environment where they could pretend to not be Black - because, on the real, in just about any place but a very liberal college campus in a Blue State (or a Blue County in a Red State) they would surely be seen as Black, no matter how light the skin, or how straight the hair, or how narrow the nose.

    As for me, and all of my biracial relatives, friends and aquantances - we identify as Black, no matter what other ancestry we might have, because that is how America has always seen us.

    Posted 09 Mar 2008 at 11:22 pm ¶

28. Eric wrote:

    Tasha, I am not disputing that the premise is true. What I attempted to show is that, applied to the earlier premise that suggested being part Asian whitewashes Blackness, it shows that being Asian is advantageous to an acting career. Since that is false, one of the first two premises must be false. Which one, I wonder?

    I’m not sure where you’re going with the Maggie Q example. I’m arguing that being Blasian or Blackanese or whatever it’s called isn’t any more White than just being Black. Asian is not the other White meat.

    I think GAB’s characterization of Tiger Woods’ career and racial identity may not be fair and unbiased. The guy goes by a name given to him by a Vietnamese family friend, he’s Buddhist (a prominent aspect of Thai culture), and I’m guessing he didn’t “suddenly” start viewing himself as biracial. It’s just that when he started to win and the media jumped all over a Black man winning at golf, he began to assert his own identity and say, “Hey, I’m actually Cablinasian.” He’s rich and successful, so they had to listen to him. Are you suggesting he chose that identity, name, and religion in order to appeal to White America? Because, if so, he made a bad choice. Look at the article on the movie about the MIT Blackjack crew, where the Asian lead characters had to be changed to White because Asian (male) faces don’t sell (except when they’re being slaughtered by Rambo). This is a step or two further than Angelina Jolie playing Mariane Pearl.

    As for Amerie, I think you’re using the word “accepted” in different ways that I can’t address in one statement. They most certainly recognize her Korean ancestry and appreciate her ability to speak the language. Would she be successful if she were to pursue a career in Korea? Given her current success, probably, but who knows. There are other half-Black half-Korean entertainers who are. Would she be considered Korean? By some, yes, but never “pure” Korean obviously. I’m pretty sure even “pure” Koreans born overseas aren’t always considered Korean. She lives in an area with no shortage of Koreans, though I have no idea how well she integrates with that community.

    Going back to my original argument, having additional minority racial or cultural identities doesn’t take away from Black identity, or make a person Whiter. Asserting that it does only reinforces the linear model of race with Black at one end and White at the other, forcing people of other races to find their place along that narrow single axis. I don’t think that’s a good framework for progress. It leads to the idea that to be socially acceptable one must conform to privileged White social norms, and marginalizes those who do not. There is an element of dehumanization as well, in saying that a person is whatever color society assigns them to. People are complex beings. Do you not find it insulting to be pigeonholed based on a single aspect of your appearance, behavior, or personality?

    I understand your pragmatism and I agree with what you say about the reality of American race politics. I just don’t agree that declaring biracial identity, and in particular a bi/multiracial mix of minority identities, denies Black heritage. Identity and race politics aren’t zero-sum games, and even if it were, we’d be a long, long way from ceteris paribus.

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 12:41 am ¶

29. Eric wrote:

    For a bit of perspective I’ll add that my view may be colored by my envy of fluent bilinguals I’ve known. They are fluent in another language while speaking fluent English as well. So the term “biracial” to me has a connotation of having two races, not two half-races. A bicycle doesn’t have two half-wheels, does it?

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 12:57 am ¶

30. Michelle wrote:

    I see your point Gregory. I will only add that many of the people in question were my color with my hair texture. It just threw me for a loop and I think it might be indicative of Cali, maybe? Anyway, I still don’t assume Blackness, unless a person informs me that they are indeed Black…no matter what they look like.

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 2:06 am ¶

31. tasha wrote:

    @Torontonian

    Kimora has always been perceived as Asian. The ambiguity of Kimora’s blackness is probably what made her appealing to Russell Simmons in the first place.

    I’ve heard all kinds of interesting theories on why Asians are underrepresented in the North American media/entertainment industry. One of which has to do with the model minority stereotype. Seeing as that achieving success in Hollywood as an Asian person is extremely difficult, because of race, Asians are discouraged from pursing that career path and instead pushed towards careers where racial discrimination is less likely to interfere with advancement and the likelihood of success, affluence, and financial security will likely come with years of study and less risk. If you talk to a lot of black comedians like Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, and others, they often have the same anecdote about why they pursued something as risky as comedy. They’re parents really didn’t have very high expectations of them. So whatever they decided to do with their lives was fine as long it was legal and they could support themselves.

    Now, as the model minority stereotype goes, rare is the Asian parent that would take such a liberal approach to their children’s career plans. I would imagine that it’s a little different for the young boy in India who wants to be a Bollywood actor or the parents of the Chinese girl from the mainland who wants to be an actress, but being Chinese isn’t going to disqualify her from being cast in a film made in the Chinese film industry the way being it normally would here.

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 8:05 am ¶

32. tasha wrote:

    @Eric

    I didn’t bring up Amarie, but there are lots of American recording artists and entertainers that perform in Korea and other Asian destinations. Some, like Amerie, even speak the language at press conferences. That’s not the same as a half black/half Asian person being able to go to Asia and build a Maggie Q type of career. Is there a half black and Asian model/actress who has had success along the same lines as Q? Would Q have been as successful had she been half black instead of half white? There have been articles on this site before about half white/half Asians going abroad to capitalize on their white half in modeling and film.

    I also did not liken claiming a bi-racial identity to being a sell out. I originally claimed that Woods, like Neal, is bi-racial and that both parents should be acknowledged. However, there’s a reason why I suggested that Tiger Woods goes out of his way to eschew his black heritage. If you go back to the thread about “Stuff White People Like,” one of the comments referred to an anthology called, “Everything but the Burden,” in which the author asks ‘What is it that whites like about black culture . . .everything but the burden. Yes, Tiger may actually be black, but the point still applies. He enjoys the benefits and enhanced marketability of being the novelty black golfer on the PGA yet doesn’t want to be bothered with the political and historical burden that accompanies being black. Look, Woods even has black friends (Jordan, Charles Barkley, Oprah etc.) Tiger and others liken him to Michael Jordan who made the decision to remain largely apolitical throughout his career, but what the media and others neglect to realize is that Woods is not Jordan. Jordan never capitalized off of his ethnicity the way Woods does. Jordan stood out because of his athletic prowess. You can’t say that about Tiger Woods. Woods quite literally makes money off of being black, in the same way that Maria Sharapova is paid her endorsement salary for being blonde and white (you didn’t think it was just because of how well she played tennis, did you), or the same way the Williams sisters ethnicity is marketed. If Woods was just Asian or white, he would be another white or Asian golfer in a see of white and Asian golfers, albeit an extraordinary golfer. In keeping with the stereotype about black athletes, having Woods play golf, lends the game a certain legitimacy. Woods wonders why everyone looks his way for activism when political dust-ups occur. He’s the only one out there getting paid because his skin is darker than everyone elses. Vijay Singh isn’t getting paid hugh endorsement checks for his ethnicity.

    Woods’ race profiteering rarely if ever gets any mention in the media. That tag (race profiteer) is usually reserved for the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, but Woods didn’t have a problem with being initially marketed to the public as a “great black hope” of sorts, when his first Nike ads came out with all the b-roll about racism against blacks in country clubs. What was the whole “I am Tiger Woods” campaign if not a ploy to market his ethnic minority status? Oh, but let someone allude to lynching him in a back alley, and he wants to pretend as if the remark was meaningless and that the term lynch has no history attached to it when applied to blacks. See what I mean? Everything but the burden. Well there’s a name for blacks who want to capitalize off of being black when it’s convenient and distance themselves from being black when it’s not. They’re called fair-weather negroes, and I have no patience for them.

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 8:14 am ¶

33. Celeste wrote:

    @tasha
    “Fair weather negroes” !! I love that! Is it your own coinage or did you see it somewhere else and if so, where? I’m going to be chuckling about that bit of nomenclature for the rest of the day.

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 9:02 am ¶

34. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Eric,

    You seem to be ignoring the widespread anti Black racism among Asian Americans, and often seen in Asia itself.

    So, it really doesn’t matter that Tiger Woods is Buddhist, or that Amerie speaks Korean fluently.

    Do you think that Thais would ever accept Tiger Woods as one of their own if he wasn’t rich? Or Koreans Amerie?

    If you do, then you have some serious blinders on about the reality of Asian negrophobia.

    Michelle,

    Race, while a biological myth, is a very real SOCIAL CONCEPT.

    That is, in a very real way, your race is assigned by the society you live in.

    For instance, if I, a product of a Black/White interracial marriage, was born in Jamiaca, Kenya or Brazil, I’d be considered “mulatto”.

    But that’s not the case here.

    By American custom (and, in Louisiana and many other states, by LAW until well into the 1970’s) I’m considered Black.

    That’s just how it is.

    Now, being Black in America is very hard, so I can see why some folks with a little non Black ancestry (and more than a little money) would try to “opt out” of being Black.

    But, at the end of the day, no matter how “biracial” or “Calibanasian” or whatever you try to pretend to be, if you get pulled over by the Alabama Highway Patrol on Interstate 20 at 2AM in the morning, you are still Black!

    So, since folks don’t get to pick their race (society does that) if I see somebody with the obvious markers of being a Light Skinned Black person (the distinctive yellow-brown complexion, wavy/kinky/nappy hair - permed or natural, and distinctive African-derived facial features) I assume that person is a Black person (unless, of course, I find out they are Brazillian, Dominican or Cuban, or from some other Latino nationality - because the whole Afro Latino thing is a whole other historical ballgame)

    And if somebody who is, by American standards, a Light Skinned Black person, and they get offended by being considered Black - well, I will tell them that they are deep in denial.

    As I said above - if you’re driving in Alabama in the middle of the night, would the state troopers think you were Black (and treat you accordingly)?

    If so, then you are African American, like it or not!!!

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 10:35 am ¶

35. Michelle wrote:

    Good points GAB, but I gotta tell you…you are preaching to the choir. I am not one of the “I got Indian in my family” negroes. And many of you out there have heard that! We agree, we just have different approaches.

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 12:54 pm ¶

36. Myles wrote:

    Wow, this makes me miss the days when this was Mixed Media Watch.

    Growing up I was always “that Mesikin boy” and it wasn’t until I entered college that some people started to think of me as being “black.” I think with a lot of biracial/multiracial “stars,” they identify as bi/multiracial for most of their life and it isn’t until they gain a certain amount of fame or enter a certain circle of influence that people start to care about how they identify.

    When I was that random orange-skinned kid in the barber shop, mall, or PX, it was okay for me to not be “one of you.” Some dirty, little byproduct of “one of ours” going astray.

    But once I entered college, I entered into a circle of minorities that was more exclusive. I became an example of something that a non-white person could achieve. I was no longer a fro-ie, orange-skinned, chinky eyed blight to the black community, but a person who reflects positively on the black community.

    So, now I’m supposed to play for the team that fought so hard to remind me that I wasn’t one of them everyday of my life. Many other mixed people go through the same thing.

    It isn’t until we become useful in your fight against white people that “they” want us.

    It isn’t until white people recognize us as having value that everyone else does.

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 3:33 pm ¶

37. FranSky wrote:

    “As for me, and all of my biracial relatives, friends and aquantances - we identify as Black, no matter what other ancestry we might have, because that is how America has always seen us.”

    I don’t give a flying frak how “America” sees me.
    No one will ever be able to tell me what I am based on their limited perceptions of race, gender, sexuality or anything else for that matter. I’m mixed. Yes I’m Black, yes I’m Native, yes I’m european American. I’m not a “light skinned Black.” I’m a person who has mixed heritage and will not kowtow to any one trying to define me. Nor should anyone else on this blog or in the any other place be defined. There is no shame in thinking for oneself, regardless of how a majority of one’s society, family or friends think. Peace!
    ~F

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 10:05 pm ¶

38. Eric wrote:

    tasha:

    I know you didn’t bring up Amerie. I did, and GAB responded. That part of my comment was directed to him (though of course you are free to respond). The excuse that you give to Torontonian boils down to “we’re not keeping you out, you’re just not trying hard enough to meet our standards.” Do you really think that’s what keeps Asians from having fully fleshed out, fully humanized characters in mainstream media? Do you realize you’re saying the same thing racist Whites say to POC any time they use exclusionary tactics? And then you go on and imply that Asians should go back to Asia if they want to succeed in entertainment. Why?

    As for your response to me, you use examples that do not logically parallel the experience of biracial Americans. Maggie Q succeeded in HK because she shares heritage with the mainstream population there, combined with acceptance of her White (privileged) heritage. Do you attribute her crossover success in the US to Asian privilege? Because I assure you, there is no such thing.

    Also, you fail to address the only point I attempted to get across to you. Asians are not White. You seem all to eager to lump them together: “If Woods was just Asian or white, he would be another white or Asian golfer in a see [sic] of white and Asian golfers, albeit an extraordinary golfer.” Yet, before Woods, where was this sea of Asian golfers? Do Asian golfers get huge endorsement deals aimed at marketing to the mainstream? I don’t remember Woods addressing a White commentator’s remark that robotic, emotionless Asian golfers are ruining the women’s tour. Even when he does assert his Asian heritage, it’s not to be more White–it’s to be exactly as he says, “I am Tiger Woods.”

    And, to answer your early question, there are indeed Black-Asian entertainers who have achieved success in Asia, though none that I can think of to Maggie Q’s degree. That doesn’t diminish my point. Asians are not White. Are you sure those half Asians going abroad aren’t capitalizing on their Asianness? I hear they like Asians over in Asia. White privilege is established in every corner of the world. I’ve never heard of Asian privilege existing outside Asia (where it’s merely mainstream privilege), and Asians most certainly do not have White privilege. Because, you know, they’re not White.

    GAB:

    I’m not ignoring anything. Where did I say that Thais would accept TW if he weren’t rich, or Koreans Amerie? I have no illusions about Asian “negrophobia” (would you like to discuss Black on Asian crime?) and there is no need for that strawman, and no need to be dismissive. The only point I have tried to make is that Asians are not White (not even by comparison to other races). Black is not the opposite of White, with everyone else in between, despite the attempt to portray it as such by couching race in convenient language. What’s the opposite of American? Identifying as Black-Asian biracial is not whitewashing, because Asians are not White. “Not Black” does not imply “White” any more than “Not American” implies “Chinese.” Do you disagree with what I am saying here?

    That fear of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, with the wrong face? Asians get that, and I suspect it plays a part in why they seem to stick together. Add to that a large number who have language difficulties, smaller physical stature, and a reputation for remaining quiet, submissive, and not willing or able to seek help from authorities (who are often no help anyway–Google Kyle Descher, and be sure to note the date), and you have some easy, easy targets. Remember that rash of Chinese delivery robberies? Apparently a Chinese life is worth a few bucks and and order of take out. But hey, there’s billions more where that one came from. Asians that assimilate well with White norms do all right, though their “safety” comes only by the majority’s consent. Anyone who looks East Asian has heard “Go back to China!” at least once, and now there’s a lot of fine print tacked on: “are you stealing our technology? planning to poison our children? our dog went missing, know anything about that?”

    I’m not telling you all this to say Asians have it worse than others. Just know it’s no picnic for Asians in the US, and many other non-Asian countries. They don’t enjoy an automatic level of privilege based on race. But they’re told to “get over it” and “stop complaining” and “just be glad you don’t have it worse.”

    As for bi/multiracial identity, it is the natural right of individuals to identify themselves as they see themselves, or as they really are. Society effectively strips them of that right. I fail to see how reinforcing that injustice makes anything right. In the rare instances where society allows individuals to define their own racial identity, you want to take that away. Why? Because criminals don’t have that opportunity? Does that make sense to you? Wouldn’t the more logical approach be to argue that criminals should be similarly identified?

    Myles:

    I’m sure you’ve seen that people who are quick to claim you when you’re useful will be just as quick to abandon you as soon as you’re not. That’s not a fight for equality, it’s a fight for in-group privilege. It’s the same tactic old-school White feminists use on women of color, and one used to divide men and women of color. When they say “just wait on your other issues, your turn will come,” don’t hold your breath.

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 10:20 pm ¶

39. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Myles,

    I am so sorry that the Black folks you grew up around were so color struck that they rejected you.

    I will admit, I did experience a bit of lightskin envy as a kid (and still do, on occasion) but, on the whole, it was far outweighed by the anti-Black racism that all of us, light or dark, faced from outside.

    FranSky,

    Why the bitterness against Black people?

    Just because you share the same race with people doesn’t mean you have to like them - or they have to like you.

    It’s just that, thanks to an accident of history, you are considered to be members of the same race that they are.

    That’s the way I always looked on it.

    Now, I’m angry at AMERICA and in particular WHITE AMERICA for being so God damned racist - but I never blamed my fellow African Americans for their reaction to that 400 years of White supremacy.

    And, Miles and FranSky, I’d like to remind you of my State Police Standard of Blackness.

    That is, if you’re driving down a rural highway at night, will the state troopers see you as Black, and treat you accordingly?

    If so, then, for better or for worse, you’re a member of the Black race, like it or not.

    The sooner you get used to that cold hard ugly American reality, the better you will feel.

    .

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 10:23 pm ¶

40. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Michelle,

    I figured out that you’re not one of those negroes who, despite all physical evidence, cites their alleged Indian or White ancestry in a desperate attempt to be anything but African American.

    But, as you’ve seen from the above posters, there ARE folks on this board who are in denial of the race that American society has assigned them to, and desperately seek to be anything but Black, based on their non Black ancestry.

    Those are the folks I’m talking too (not to mention the non Black folks who try and pretend there is no racism in America).

    In any case, the fact that so many Blacks would try so hard to claim that they’re not Black itself is living proof of the continued existance of American Negrophobia - otherwise, why would people try so hard to claim that they ‘re not Black, and so desperately try to distance themselves from the race?

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 10:29 pm ¶

41. Myles wrote:

    “No one will ever be able to tell me what I am based on their limited perceptions of race, gender, sexuality or anything else for that matter. ”

    Quoting just so it appears twice

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 10:40 pm ¶

42. Myles wrote:

    Actually the first thing they’re going to do is ask me if I speak English. It’s happened before

    GAB, I realize that you think that your view is the correct one, and it most likely gets you through your day just fine.

    But it doesn’t work for me, where I live. Your paradigm doesn’t apply to me, and I am sure it doesn’t apply for a lot of other people.

    At the end of the day, when I walk into a room I’m thinking “where the people who don’t suck at?”

    Not, “where the people that white America has told me that I’m one of to justify their bullplop so they can sleep at night, who don’t give a damn about me anyway except for some pigment”

    Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 11:00 pm ¶

43. mr guy wrote:

    “No one will ever be able to tell me what I am based on their limited perceptions of race, gender, sexuality or anything else for that matter.”

    I agree with the above as well.

    If that mean some people will think I am “in denial of the race that American society has assigned them to, and desperately seek to be anything but Black” then so be it.

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 12:34 am ¶

44. dan wrote:

    You’re right Myles, it is a nice quote from FranSky.

    “No one will ever be able to tell me what I am based on their limited perceptions of race, gender, sexuality or anything else for that matter. ”

    Gregory,
    I’d suggest taking a deep breath and again not using generalizations of WHITE AMERICA being racist. It’s not true and reflects badly on any positive impact you intend to project.

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 12:39 am ¶

45. Michelle wrote:

    GAB….

    I could never explain to Myles or FranSky what I hear when I read their posts. Not because they wouldn’t understand, although I suspect that would not really get it, but because I can’t really put into words my irrational and emotional, almost spiritual, profoundly deep connection to the thing, the intangible thing, called Blackness. It extends to others that I see who I instinctively and without question include in my definition of Blackness, which I am coming to learn is, for better or worse, part of my definition of self. That said, after many such conversations with people who share the sentiments of FranSky and Myles, I decided that I needed to change. The world was much, much larger than my insulated ideas of Blackness and the wholeness of who we are as a people. I realized that out of respect for other people’s need to name themselves, to name who they are, irrespective of society, I needed to release, as best I could, the idea that we are all Black. Also, as a means of self preservation, to keep myself from being seriously wounded by another person’s decision to say no to our crazy societies ideas of who is Black, I needed to change.

    Of course, intellectually and from a socio-political stand point we could all make some great points. But I think the issue is such an emotionally charged one, that we can’t really discuss it properly.

    That said, I hear all of you and oddly enough I actually understand the point of views expressed here.

    Now, back to Asians and the media…..does the fact that Asian Americans, in particular those from Korea, Japan, China and India, have countries with their own large media outlets mean something different for Asian actors? I mean, Black actors don’t have the same international/global options. Perhaps it creates a different level of impetus to create change within Hollywood? I don’t know…I am simply trying to dig a little deeper.

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 1:01 am ¶

46. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Myles,

    What is your beef with African Americans?

    Yes, you grew up around some folks who, by the sound of it, were prizewinning assholes.

    And, guess what?

    EVERY RACE has it’s assholes (including White people).

    So why the leap to turning your back on the race you, by American standards, belong to?

    Please explain - cause it sounds like a serious case of self-hatred to me.

    Eric,

    Please don’t trot out the “Asian on Black crime” thing - White folks have been using the same excuse to justify their negrophobia since the days of Reconstruction.

    And you still seem to have a problem with the reality that, here in America, anybody with even a small amount of Black ancestry is considered Black, and, in most cases, is renounced by their other race of origin.

    Can’t you just admit that fact?

    Hey, I’ve lived that reality for 39 years - I figured out really early that I was never going to be accepted by the Irish community (even the non racist Irish folks) and that was just that.

    I’m sure most half Asian half Black folks (who aren’t famous golfers) have experienced that same moment of clarity early in life.

    So why can’t you just take our word for it?

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 2:42 am ¶

47. LM wrote:

    @Gregory A. Butler:

    You asked FranSky, “Why the bitterness against Black people?”

    I would appreciate it you point out where in FranSky’s comment you find “bitterness against Black people.”

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 6:10 am ¶

48. Myles wrote:

    GAB,

    What makes you think I’m anymore fond of any other group of monoracial people than another. I identify as a multiracial person.

    And can you tell me why I should care how “American stadards” define me?

    It’s not like those standards have ever done anyone any good. Okay, maybe they have halped out white men who have both money and power, but anyone else?

    Not in the least.

    And maybe you should ask yourself why it is so important to control the race of others.

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 7:20 am ¶

49. tasha wrote:

    Ok, this is going to be long, but that’s nothing new.

    @Eric

    Well, you’re arguing with a lot of people at once, so I’m taking into consideration that it might be a bit challenging to keep all the comments straight. Anyway, I’m glad you agree that Q’s success in the HK modeling an film industry is due to her combination of Asian and white heritage and privilege. And Maggie Q isn’t that famous here, so no, I don’t attribute her success to any type of specific Asian privilege. In fact, if you read my first reply to you, I said that being perceived as any kind of ethnic other than white can limit potential success in Hollywood, but that WHEN hapas get cast, it’s usually the half white ones, not the ones that are half black. If you ask me, Q’s getting cast in some US films because of her draw in the Asian market and potential for bankability oversees. Most people in the States, don’t know who she is.

    And my response to Torontonian did not boil down “we’re not keeping you out . . .” My intent was to suggest that racial discrimination is discouraging more Asian Americans from even pursuing those types of careers in the first place. I said that I would imagine that the number of Asians pursuing show biz careers in say, China or India, is larger because, of all the barriers that Asians there have to face there, race discrimination probably wouldn’t be one of them.

    “I don’t remember Woods addressing a White commentator’s remark that robotic, emotionless Asian golfers are ruining the women’s tour.”

    So Woods is a fair-weather Asian, too? See, I don’t think you’ll be able to fully appreciate my “everything but the burden” diatribe until someone utters an incendiary, blatantly anti-Asian slur at Woods, and he tries to play it off like it didn’t mean anything, cause most of the comments from the Fuzzy Zoeller (chicken and collards) remark to the “lynch” comment have been targeted towards his black half.

    And whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up! I never said that Asians were white. My saying that if Tiger Woods were just Asian or just white, he would be another white or Asian golfer in a sea of white and Asian golfers is not untrue. Saying that the PGA is chock full of white and Asian golfers is no different from saying that the NBA is at no loss for black players. That’s in part why Yao Ming is the media sensation that he is here, because there aren’t very many Asian ball players in the NBA. So, being Chinese is one of the things that make him stand out. How many black players are there in the PGA? One. And for the record, I am not trying to discount Woods’ golfing prowess. I’m merely saying that Tiger is the Eminem of the golf world. You can’t say that Em is selling records simply because he’s a talented recording artist, because that’s not entirely true. His being white in an industry dominated by black men gives Eminem an enhanced level of marketability that other black rappers don’t have, especially considering that the majority of hip-hop recordings are purchased by white males. However, you can’t say that Eminem is selling records only because he’s white, because that’s not true either. Eminem is a talented recording artist. It’s the combination of the two (white privilege/talent) that makes Eminem the multi-platinum, media sensation that he is. It’s the same with Tiger Woods. You can’t acknowledge one and ignore the other. It’s a combination of his being black and his being a phenomenal golfer that make him standout, but I don’t think that he would be able to milk his ethnic cache as much as he has if he was only Thai. I really don’t. Michael Jordan distinguished himself by his athletic prowess and his athletic prowess alone. No one was going to pay attention to him for simply being a black athlete in his sport, the way Woods would generate interest for being black in his game.

    I just read an article in the New York Times sport’s magazine “Play” about these two little black girls, Ginger and Robbi Howard (ages 12 and 13), who are gearing up to be the LPGA’s Williams Sisters. Now, neither one of those girls is ranked in the top fifty or even the top one hundred tier of junior golfers, nor has one placed or even competed in the US Women’s Amateur Open, and though they have won many other tournaments and beat players older than they, there have been other girl golfers that have reached more impressive benchmarks at their ages than the Howard Sisters, like 12 year old Alexis Thompson, who last summer, was the youngest golfer ever to qualify for the US Women’s Open, or Morgan Pressel, who is the youngest female golfer to win a major golf tournament (just shy of her 19th birthday), who, before Thompson broke her record, was the youngest female golfer to qualify for the US Women’s Open, or even won the US amateur public links tournament at 13, like the overhyped Michelle Wie.

    So, why were Ginger and Robbi getting a five page profile in such a prestigious magazine? Three guesses, #1 because they’re black, #2because they’re black, #3 because they’re black. There’s beaucoup dollars to be made off of being black in golf, because blacks in golf are most rare. If those Howard girls succeed, it’s going to a huge deal in terms of the publicity and interest they will generate for the LPGA, much like Woods being black has done for the PGA.

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 8:34 am ¶

50. tasha wrote:

    @celest

    Well, I don’t remember hearing the term “fair-weather negro” anywhere, but I doubt that I came up with it first.

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 8:48 am ¶

51. Celeste wrote:

    I can identify with how you feel when you read posts from Fransky and Myles. One person’s right to self-identify can seem like a rejection of someone else’s whole racial identity. That’s not a warm fuzzy. It’s only the past few years (in large part due to this blog) that I was able to look at mixed race identity in a different way. I was in high school in Flint, MI when Tiger Woods came out and I really resented him because he did not identify only as black. I knew a half Chinese half black kid and while we all knew that his mom was Chinese he was identified as black without any type of modifier. I viewed being black through the Alabama state trooper model and thought that if you were black by that model, you should just amek your peace with it. People have different experiences but on the whole I think that black families are more accepting of mixed black people (by neccessity) than other groups. You might get made fun of but there’s very little disownment. It bothered me that the group most likely to accept you and more likely to hold onto you even if you try to pull away seems to be the heritage that many mixed race people try to distance themselves from. My little 5-year-old nephew is having this crisis now. If you ask him about race he says that he likes brown people but not the color brown. Mommy is brown but he and his dad are tan. I’m his favorite aunt because I’m orange (the other aunt is brown). But back to my original point, viewing blackness in a binary way isn’t fair to Tiger Woods or his family. His mom isn’t a brood mare, her genes count in his identity and he gets to choose his own identitiy. My perception of Tiger is that he does try to distance himself to whatever black heritage he has above and beyond just identifying with more than one race. So I decided that if someone doesn’t claim me, I don’t claim him. I’m sure he’s not losing any sleep over me so I’m not wasting energy feeling rejected by him. I agree with Tasha that it’s not cool to pimp out your blackness for endorsements but then let the lynching comments go by without objection. So boo to the fairweather negroes (or insert any ethnic group). I’m totally fine with people that identify with both/all their ethnicities, you can be asian/white/indian, etc. and black at the same time. It’s not a binary thing.
    As for my future half chinese half black children. I would like to them to identify as both Chinese and black. We plan to expose them equally (I hope) to both cultures. I don’t know what kind of experience we’ll have but I have to admit that I’m more concerned about him or her getting flack at Chinese school than at a black church. Part fo me does want to impart to them that while they are both, the community that I come from is more likely to consistently accept them than their father’s is. Like my nephew, they’re probably going to become aware of the drawbacks of identifying as black but I want them to know that they should resist the temptation to distance themselves because they might need that connection someday.

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 10:09 am ¶

52. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    “And can you tell me why I should care how “American stadards” define me?”

    Myles,

    If you ever find yourself pulled over by the Alabama State Police at 2AM - or if you run into a couple of dozen White teenagers in the “wrong neighborhood” late at night, you will HAVE to care about how American standards define you racially.

    It’s.

    Just.

    That.

    Simple.

    So why not come to terms with your socially defined racial identity NOW, before the world makes that decision for you?

    And, BTW, why exactly do you have a problem identifying as Black?

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 12:53 pm ¶

53. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    GAB, I really have to take issue with your approach here.

    I’m multiracial myself, and if I have biological kids they will also be multiracial. I’ve spoken/written extensively about multiracial issues.

    Yes, I understand what you’re saying about how the rest of society buys into the one drop rule and that if you get pulled over, you’ll be seen as black.

    I also understand your frustration with people who appear to reject blackness.

    However, understand that identifying as black and identifying as multiracial are not mutually exclusive things. Many people identify as both black AND multiracial. And identifying as multiracial is not necessarily a *rejection* of blackness. Identity is just not that simple.

    Also, please show some respect for the way others self-identify. Just as we respect your choice to identify as black.

    You may not realize this, but Racialicious actually started out as a blog called Mixed Media Watch, which was all about how multiracial people and interracial relationships are portrayed in the media. So the multiracial experience/identity has always been core to the character of this site.

    I don’t expect you to agree with me, but at least stop attacking people for how they identify.

    Thanks for listening.

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 1:13 pm ¶

54. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    One more thing - I’m really sick of seeing multiracial people derided for their supposed naivety about the nature of racism in this country.

    This may be shocking to you, but multiracial people don’t all live in this multi-culti happy bubble where racism doesn’t exist.

    I talk about this in my workshop on the topic, but multiracial folks often have a much more nuanced understanding of racism than you may think.

    Most people of color have experienced direct racism, where someone is attacking/discriminating against you for being black, for example. (The racial spy experience.)

    But multiracial people who are ethnically ambiguous (esp if they look white) often also experience a much more insidious kind of racism: when people make racist comments to them, not realizing they’re actually part black, for example.

    And on top of all of that, multiracial people are painfully aware of the internalized racism that exists among POCs. I can’t tell you how many times other Chinese people have expressed surprised at finding out I’m Chinese, because “you’re not ugly and yellow and dark like us.”

    Not all multiracial people will have had all these experiences, but before you deride anyone who identifies as anything other than just black, please take a minute to think about how accurate your sweeping generalizations are.

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 1:20 pm ¶

55. FranSky wrote:

    Thanks for speaking up Carmen. What I have enjoyed about Racialicious is that generally I felt safe expressing my own multiracial experience. My hope is that can continue for myself & others.

    What is funny about the identification process for me is that at times I’ve had a few Black folks in my life not believe I was part Black or feel because of my hair and skin tone I was not “Black enough” to call myself Black. I had to ignore those voices & very clearly & happily claim my African heritage.

    If I were to identify as how many others see me, I would be lying. Many folks think I’m Latina, Italian or Polynesian, of which I am none of the above. Why should I identify with how anyone else sees me when they do not know my background and pretty much always are wrong. I really believe in the phrase “To thine own self be true.”

    So I will continue to honor ALL my ancestors. Continue to keep my mind open to that which I may not understand. Continue to fight for justice for all my brothers & sisters no matter how they feel about me. Because that is who, in the end, I am.
    Peace!
    ~F

    Posted 11 Mar 2008 at 3:49 pm ¶

56. Eric wrote:

    tasha:

    My apologies, I misinterpreted your earlier comments. I thought you were defending Black Canseco’s logic implying Asians were “more anglo” when you responded to Torontonian and me. I laid it out in an earlier comment but it appears we aren’t really disagreeing anyway. That explains my confusion trying to interpret your replies–just imagine question marks over my head as you interpret what I wrote. Thank you (sincerely!) for being understanding about it being difficult to manage multiple arguments. Your reply was long and I know it’s frustrating if you think I’m ignoring your efforts, so rest assured I read the whole thing. I have little to add at this point except that I actually do understand the feeling you get when a member of a group you identify with shrugs off attacks on the group. I have yet to develop a response beyond the sophistication of “ugh.”

    GAB:

    I’ve never denied what you are saying. I was trying to show you another perspective, since you seemed pretty angry at TW. I apologize for the “Black on Asian crime” parenthetical. Your tone and use of the term “negrophobia” indicated you might be blaming only Asians for Black-Asian tensions, and I was trying to get you to look at things from both perspectives. I should have found a better way to say that. Keep in mind, however, that Asian “negrophobia” is a vastly different thing from White “negrophobia,” and comes from different places. Fortunately, Carmen has explained the point of contention more clearly than I have, because at this stage I’m out of ideas.

    dan:

    There could be countless dissections of and dissertations on the second half of your comment, I’m not so sure you can so sweepingly call the statement false. At the very least, there is a racist system of some sort which White America contributes to. Each individual contribution may be small or relatively benign, yet in aggregate the effects can be very damaging. When people make the kinds of generations typically seen here, remember that racism can exist without “Racists.” No one is accusing you or your family or friends of malice. At least, I don’t think so.

    Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 12:55 am ¶

57. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Carmen,

    I do hear your point.

    And I’m not trying to tell anybody how they can or should feel about themselves.

    Speaking for myself, I’m very proud of both my Irish and my Black ancestors (not to mention the other threads of my ancestry - Swedish on my dad’s side, Scottish and Lumbee Indian on my mother’s).

    With that said, race is a SOCIAL construct - and, whatever identity you may choose for yourself, you will still have an identity imposed on you from the outside, like it or not.

    If you were born in Louisiana prior to the mid 1970’s, the State of Louisiana would put your race on your birth certificate - and they had a woman who’s full time job was to determine the race of “racially ambiguous” people.

    Her decision was, quite literally, law - and the identity she assigned you would be put on your official documents.

    Today, race assignments aren’t as governmetnally sanctioned - but there still is a very real social element to what race you belong to.

    No matter weather you like that racial identity, you will have to deal with it, no matter what.

    Now, it’s one thing to identify as a biracial Black person and to be proud of both one’s Black and non Black heritage.

    But I am seriously uncomfortable with folks who seem to look down on their Black ancestry, and who, to my ears at least, go out of their way to denigrate their Black heritage.

    I have serious problems with that, and it makes me very angry. It feels like they’re making common cause with the Whites and others who hate Black people.

    And they’re rejecting a community (African Americans) which, by necessity, has always had to be more welcoming of biracial folks who are socially identified as Black.

    Look, when I was 3, my family moved out to Far Rockaway, Queens, and we (my Irish dad, my Black mom, my brother Chris and me) were the first interracial family on the block.

    Despite the fact that it was an Irish neighborhood (and they THOUGHT we were an Irish family - cause my dad rented the apartment… we’d lived in pre gentrificaiton Chelsea prior to that) we were NOT accepted as Irish.

    After a bit of harassment (a brick through my bedroom window, a broken car window, some racial insults) the Irish moved out (the Jews were just a couple of years behind them) and, by the time I was in middle school, we lived in a Black and Latino neighbohood.

    But I learned very well from that lesson - like it or not, I was a Black American, and I’d better get used to it really quick.

    I never had the luxury of getting to “choose” my identity - I was considered Black and, quite frankly, had to accept that identity for self protective reasons.

    So forgive me if I’m not particularly sympathetic to those who reject their Black side - and, quite frankly, seem to have some scorn and contempt for that side of their ancestry (while desperately clinging to the Black side).

    Hey, I like my Irish ancestry too - I know a lot about Irish history, I always wear green on St Patricks day (although my dad was Irish Protestant so, technically, that’s not my holiday at all) and I’ve always supported the cause of Northern Irish freedom.

    But I know that I am not, and never will be, accepted as Irish, no matter what.

    Doesn’t make me any less proud of my Irish side.

    Does make me a little sad that my Irish side will never be proud of me.

    And it does make me know that, no matter what, I’ll always be considered African American, no matter how much White ancestry I have.

    Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 1:29 am ¶

58. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    I MEANT “desperately clinging to the NON Black side” - sorry about that!!!

    Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 1:31 am ¶

59. Torontonian wrote:

    @tasha

    Not all Asians are capable of doing math. Not all Asians get to choose what career path to take, since Asians, just like non-Asians, have individual strengths and weaknesses. Not all Asians live to please their parents.

    From personal experience knowing talented Asians who are or were involved in the entertainment business, racial discrimination is more relevant than the supposed lack of Asian musicians and actors. I read Eric’s interpretation of your post, but I still take offense at your post, because you are just invoking Asian stereotypes to prove your point. Your points are that: (1) Asians go into careers with financial security; (2) Asians don’t want to take risks; (3) Asians prefer study in school for years; and (4) Asians’ lives revolve around their parents.

    Of course some Asians are like this, but even famous Asian American and Asian Canadian actors who have “made it” complain about limited roles for Asians and being pigeonholed into racial stereotypes. Out of all the “interesting theories” you have heard, I don’t understand why you subscribe to the one that believes there is an abundance of spaces for Asian actors and a scarcity of Asian actors, when the reverse is true and pretty well-established.

    Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 9:55 pm ¶

60. Torontonian wrote:

    Also, I think Kimora is perceived as blasian, which helps the “urban” image of Baby Phat. If Kimora was only Asian, then society would probably not perceive her fashion as “urban”. Because of her blackness, people assume that she is real American instead of a foreigner. People probably didn’t ask Kimora “where are you from?” and expect her to name a foreign country instead of an American city/state.

    Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 10:12 pm ¶

61. tasha wrote:

    @Torontonian

    Really, all Asians aren’t good at math? I did not know that. I explained myself and my intent when I replied to Eric. If you misinterpreted what I trying to say, I apologize. I never said that I subscribed to the theory that there are an “abundance of spaces,” if you will. I implied that race discrimination could be having an impact on the number of Asian Americans pursing those types of careers to begin with. I’d be the first to tell you that the reason why more and more African American athletes are playing basketball and football, rather than baseball, is because of the perception that basketball and football offer more opportunities from the college level to through the pros. So, more of them are doing that. There are probably more African American recording artists than actors. Is that because blacks are somehow less adept at dramatic artistry? No, there are more black recording artists than actors because there’s more opportunity for black recording artists as opposed to black actors (largely because of race discrimination). So more of them are doing that. You know, why are there so many Jewish comedians? It isn’t because Jews are so much funnier than everyone else. There’s a lot of opportunity for Jews in Hollywood. So, a lot of them are doing that. Why are you so offended at my suggesting that the limited demand for Asian American actors (because of racial discrimination) is affecting the supply?

    There’s a similar problem in the dance world with black female ballet dancers in particular. While black male dancers are facing less discrimination when it comes to being employed by major companies (in part because male dancers, in general, are hard to come by), their female counterparts are finding it especially difficult because of gendered racism involving everything from standing out because of their skin color to being perceived as less than feminine. So, is it any wonder that the training schools of major companies lack black students or that black dancers would look for opportunities in smaller companies or use their classical training to pursue employment in other forms of dance such as modern, jazz, hip-hop etc., where race discrimination is less of an obstacle?

    Oh, and Kimora’s fame stems from her being a former high fashion model, being married to a hip-hop mogul, and parlaying that marriage into a successful fashion and lifestyle brand. Her ambiguous black heritage really has little if anything to do with it. Black people are not more accepting of Kimora because of her black herritage. Being married to Russell Simmons is what gave Kimora her street cred. If she wasn’t Russell’s wife, no one would care about her. Kimora looks like the second coming of Imelda Marcos, and I don’t think most blacks would be any less accepting of her if she were not black.

    Asians have always been style purveyors in hip-hop culture. The original head designer of Russell’s Phat Farm line was Kevin Leong. Russell had Kimora in his ads before the urban community knew she was black. Rachel Roy (half Indian and white) was head designer for Rock-a-Wear ladies line. Chad Hugo from the Neptunes. That Japanese guy with that “A Bathing Ape” clothing line that makes those expensive, rip-off Air Force Ones. Kanye West’s album cover art was done by Takashi Murakami, etc.

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 2:57 am ¶

62. Cynthia wrote:

    Tasha:

    Asians have always been style purveyors in hip-hop culture? Really? The first designer of Asian descent that comes to mind for most Americans is Vera Wang. And hip-hop she ain’t.

    Sorry, I really don’t get the association of Asians and hip-hop because it seems…so out of place to me.

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 7:39 am ¶

63. tasha wrote:

    Well, Cynthia, I just named some hip-hop taste makers of Asian descent; so if you want to learn more about them, you can start there.

    Torontonian suggested that the reason why Kimora was accepted by the “urban market” was largely because she was black, and that if she was only Asian, the urban market wouldn’t have embraced Kimora or her brand. I argue that most of the urban audience didn’t know that she was black when Russell initially started featuring her in his ads, and the clothes were selling just fine, even with the perception of Kimora as non-black, since according to Torontonian, the urban audience only responds to blacks. My mentioning some Asian style purveyors in hip-hop culture was to reinforce my point that Kimora is not the only Asian tastemaker that the urban audience has embraced since hip-hop’s inception.

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 9:05 am ¶

64. atlasien wrote:

    I find it amazing that some people on this thread are saying that Tiger Woods hates his blackness but Kimora Lee has this exalted “doesn’t have to prove anything” status.

    Wow, Blasians really have it hard. I TOTALLY support their right to self-identify, whether they decide they’re primarily black, primarily Asian or primarily multiracial.

    Right now, yes, African-Americans are more accepting of multiracial black people than Asian-Americans are of multiracial Asians. But this is not always going to be the case! These kinds of perceptions change from region to region and generation to generation. I don’t believe in accepting “United States circa 2008″ “who gets to be what race” rules as commandments written in stone.

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 1:05 pm ¶

65. Torontonian wrote:

    @tasha

    There is nothing wrong with implying that “race discrimination could be having an impact on the number of Asian Americans pursing those types of careers to begin with.” However, you were using it as an explanation of “why Asians are underrepresented in the North American media/entertainment industry.” In other words, you were suggesting that Asians are underrepresented because they don’t want to take risks and prefer to study in school for years to secure a job with financial security to comply with their parents’ wishes.

    The statistics I posted above show that Asians are severely underrepresented on screen, not that Asians are severely underrepresented within the population of actors.

    On Kimora: I was not suggesting that black people are more accepting of Kimora because of her black heritage. I was suggesting that Americans (white, black, Asian, etc.) are more accepting of Kimora as American because of her black heritage.

    @Cynthia

    The Asians-and-hiphop connection is very strong. It doesn’t apply to you, probably because you’re too upper-class and YASPy.

    “Hip Hop and Alternative music are the dominant musical genres favored among U.S.-born Asian American youth. A diverse array of musical genres forms the listening habits of Asian youth — but with distinct differences according to their acculturation levels and generation. While first-generation (born outside the U.S.) respondents preferred “Pop/Top 40″ music, second-generation Asian Americans (U.S. born) exhibited a strong preference for Hip Hop and Alternative music. Among the latter, sixty-two percent of respondents identify “Hip Hop/Rap” as their favorite music genre, followed by 51 percent who favor “Alternative / Indie” music.”

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 8:34 pm ¶

66. Torontonian wrote:

    @tasha: “My mentioning some Asian style purveyors in hip-hop culture was to reinforce my point that Kimora is not the only Asian tastemaker that the urban audience has embraced since hip-hop’s inception.”

    But those were behind-the-scenes purveyors, similar to how Asians are well-represented in the technical backend of media/entertainment productions, but not as the faces of entertainment/media.

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 8:44 pm ¶

67. Torontonian wrote:

    @tasha,

    Also, how do you know that Kimora was initially perceived as Asian-and-not-black?

    Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 8:47 pm ¶

68. DivergentDana wrote:

    I’m thinking that tasha’s making that assumption based on what would be the common assessment of Kimora’s appearance. For instance, I didn’t know she was Blasian until someone told me.

    Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 2:58 pm ¶

69. Torontonian wrote:

    To me, Kimora looks visibly black and asian.

    Posted 15 Mar 2008 at 1:51 pm ¶

70. Torontonian wrote:

    Does the one-drop rule not apply to Kimora?

    Posted 15 Mar 2008 at 1:58 pm ¶

71. Tara wrote:

    It seems a lot of posts are confusing nationality with race on here. Country of origin and ethnic lineage are quite different. Seeing as how the problem of qualifying nationality as race (i.e. the way the international community sometimes quantifies “American” with “white”) is a HUGE issue and perpetuates racist, nationalist identity, I’d think I’d see something more aware on here.

    America is not the only country with racial diversity.

    But good development of an important discussion.

    Posted 21 Mar 2008 at 9:23 pm ¶

72. Occams Razor wrote:

    It’s a sad fact but it’s true - those who are half black are often portrayed as being black. Like Obama - he’s half black, yet everyone is calling him black.

    The reason is purely visual - anyone with dark skin is automatically thought of as black.

    We should remember that in the end, we’re all HUMAN, irregardless of skin colour.

    As for identity - that’s really up to the individual. Some biracial people like to identify with just one group, others like to identify with both or neither.

    As a biracial person myself (Chinese-English), I identify myself as HUMAN. Just HUMAN. Nothing more or less. And that’s worked out well for me. It allows me to take credit for all humanity has done, as well as recognize all the evil that every race has committed. We’re all humans, on a genetic level. And that should settle the matter.

    Posted 23 Mar 2008 at 4:13 am ¶

73. Occams Razor wrote:

    As for “what culture” one should follow - again that’s up to everyone else. I think that has human beings - we should claim ALL cultures and ALL histories. Forget this stuff about Asian culture or Black Culture or White culture or their histories - It’s all HUMAN culture, and as humans, we should all acknowledge it and learn about it.

    Posted 23 Mar 2008 at 4:16 am ¶

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