Sumpin’ Turrrrble: SNL’s Keenan Thompson Performs Minstrel Act

by Racialicious special correspondent Wendi Muse, originally published at The Coup Magazine (blog)

I didn’t get a chance to see the entire episode of Saturday Night Live this weekend, but I came across a segment clip from NBC’s website that made my blood curdle. SNL’s guest this week was the young actress of Juno fame, Ellen Page, whose comedic timing proved powerful yet equally disturbing in a piece with Keenan Thompson, the only black member of the cast (Maya Rudolph, who is half black-American, half white Jewish, identifies as multiracial), entitled “Virginiaca Goes to Baby Gap.” You can see the full video of the sketch here, but I’ll give you a little re-cap:

An overweight black woman who, only for lack of a better term, would be characterized as “ghetto” stumbles out of breath into a Baby Gap store (as it’s on the second floor) with a pastry in hand. She practically sexually harasses the Baby Gap employee (played by Adam Samberg). Her step-daughter, played by Ellen Page, corn-rowed, permed, and wearing a tracksuit, enters the store, demanding to try on spandex pants she’d like to wear as booty shorts. Angered that the Baby Gap employee won’t allow her to try on the pants for fear that she’ll stretch out the merchandise (as it’s meant for BABIES), Page’s character and Virginiaca name drop (as Virginiaca’s new husband is a wealthy white aluminum tycoon, the daughter of whom she has clearly “corrupted”) in hopes of getting their way. After a slew of aural and visual stereotype guest appearances (including the “booty back and forth” dance and repeated overt and unwanted flirting with the sales guy), the segment ends with the sales person quitting and Virginiaca in all fours on a merchandise stand continuing her “booty back and forth” dance in the store.

While SNL has engaged in black/brownface before, including having light-skinned Latino Fred Armisen play presidential hopeful Barack Obama, and Darrell Hammond play Jesse Jackson and Geraldo Rivera,they were impressions, albeit good ones, and I never found offense in having the best cast members for the job portray important members of our society who happened to have darker skin than theirs. Yet when I saw the “Shopping with Virginiaca” sketch, which apparently is a regular segment on the show, I felt something different. Keenan Thompson, though black, was performing a blackface minstrelsy routine that went far beyond basic impressions of famous people. He was poking fun, sure, but in a way that ultimately cements what black women are and how we are viewed by the general public.

The routine was all the more significant in its meaning when I first saw it as I had just ended a conversation with a white colleague regarding how much I tire of the negative images of black women on tv that are so powerful that I can’t help but wonder whether or not people expect this behavior of me when they see me on the bus, on the subway, or in the street, no matter how I am dressed, how I speak, my job titles, or what school I went to. The stereotype precedes me. It walks 10 feet ahead, greeting those who pass by before I can say a word. And shame on you, Keenan Thompson, for making the stereotype strong enough to tackle me down before I can open my mouth to interrupt its first impressions.

This is not the first case of BMID: Black Men In Drag to which I object, however. We have Eddie Murphy’s racist, sexist, and size-ist portrayal of an overweight black woman named Rasputia in Norbit, his sad attempt at comedy that featured a thin, light skinned love interest played by Thandie Newton. Murphy’s portrayal of middle aged and older black women in his Nutty Professor films can be considered equally incensing, as both the mother and grandmother of the Professor are either prudish or overly randy, respectively, and display little shame when it comes to bodily functions and even less concern about their personal appearance. Tyler Perry, known for his portrayal of an older black woman in his Madea series, can also be included in this category, as the Madea character, while at times inspiring and imparting essential wisdom with a certain sagaciousness that comes with old age, nevertheless fits the stereotype of an overly emboldened, loud, and larger-than-life black woman bearing an attitude bigger than her body.

Latoya Peterson wrote on this phenomenon in a piece entitled “Real Women (of color) Have Curves” :

. . . the whole idea of large black women as a stereotype has unfortunately already come to fruition. The antagonist/”female” lead of the recent movie “Norbit” cashes in on this oversexed, overconfident, over-sized black woman stereotype and was laughed at all the way to the bank. In discussing this article with a friend of a different race, she noted that it wasn’t just the size of black women that contributes to the stereotype - it is also the personality attributed to a black woman of that size. She rightly pointed out that black women over 200 pounds are normally portrayed in the media as being loud, sassy, and completely overbearing - a negative reinforcement to the positive body image many large black women seek to represent.

She goes on to discuss the general acceptance of women of color who happen to be “of size,” and ultimately, much larger than their white female counterparts, for whom starvation is rendered the end-all, be-all as they infinitely approach the accepted social norms and expectations for white female beauty. Considering that the characterizations of larger black women tend to be negative and the very fact that many black women in the United States tend to be on the larger side, at least more so than white women, it’s no wonder that the stereotypes are so disturbing. It’s yet another way to create an identity pigeonhole, one coupled with physical and behavioral attributes that one needs not to look far to witness in media and then ultimately apply in real life, whether or not the associations made are accurate.

With that said, in reflecting on the SNL piece once again, I can safely say that I am more than disappointed. Will there ever be a time in which comedy can rely on more than stereotypes or humor at the expense of others to exist? I also wonder whether or not black women, their very femininity, intelligence, and happy existence threatened by such negative portrayals, will be able to face a day when others don’t see the stereotypes first?

*SNL cast member Keenan Thompson pictured above.

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. So, What’s In a Name? at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 17 Mar 2008 at 8:04 am

    […] there is a social penalty, which we discovered in Wendi’s post Sumpin’ Turrrble. There are still many people who will place a value judgement on your name, which does have an […]

Comments

  1. sofia wrote:

    Before I respond, can you tell me what you mean by “minstrel act?”

  2. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Ugh - Wendi, I know exactly what you mean. Someone else linked to this sketch and I watched the first few minutes before turning it off.

    This kind of bit has been done for so long, by so many people, that it has failed to be funny.

  3. Hajarah wrote:

    I agree. Saturday Night Live has turned me off completely, first with the horrible blackface Obama sketches and now this. It’s a slippery slope on the steps towards overt racism. The Virginiaca (because black women’s names are considered ridiculous when they’re not anglo like Susan, Linda or Jane) character is depressing. At most she is a sexualized animal…a beast.

    And what was up with the Tina Fey sketch ‘Bitch is the new black.’ What kind of marginalized banter is that? Do we want comedy shows telling us how to vote?

  4. Caro wrote:

    Is it just me, or is the niacin reference calling back the days of pellagra?

    Lord.

  5. Colin wrote:

    I’m just glad I’m not alone in my disdain. I couldn’t watch it once Ellen Page’s whack get-up came on the screen…it was just out-and-out crud.

  6. Orphan Annie wrote:

    The real question is who writes these sketches. I’ve seen a few of the Virginiaca sketches and I’m aghast that Kenan does them, but even more upset at the writers who thinks this is…what? How Black women are? Completely acceptable?

  7. Black Canseco wrote:

    i’m not that mad about SNL, really. This is par for the course. Black folks have complained about this since Eddie Murphy left. Well, maybe not complained as much as simply stopped watching.

    SNL’s always appealed to overwhelmingly white crowds. And a hallmark of their comedy has been marginalizing their black cast member into black stereotypes or not getting air time at all.

    Part of Eddie Murphy’s mainstream success wasn’t just his amazing talent, but it was the mainstream popularity of Velvet Jones (a pimp/street hustler), Buckwheat (an illiterate meallymouth that butchers the english language), the jailhouse poet (a militant black convict) and Mr. Robinson (a poor, white-hating guy more concerned with not paying rent than anything else)…all among the worst stereotypes of black men possible; and again his most popular characters.

    How many times was Chris Rock gonna have to wear play a Dashiki or scream “whitey sucks”? How many times was Tim Meadows gonna be stuck with his Courvassier-guzzling, lispy, white girl chasing loverman? How often was Ellen Cleghorne gonna have to do some illiterate, sassy black woman bit for laughs?

    Only once in the show’s 30-plus year run have they even had as many as 2 black regulars and that was in the last 5 years when both Keenan and Courtney(?–that one other guy) were on for about two seasons.

    If White women had been marginalized to this degree by SNL over the years, NOW and feminists on both coasts would have bashed Lorne Michaels into submission years ago. Imagine if all the Jewish cast members on SNL had been peddling degrading
    portrayals of jews.

    The Obama bits are just par for the course. The show itself has always had much bigger issues.

    As for the Jesse Jackson bits, I’m no Jesse or Al cheerleader, but mainstream america once thought Al Jolson’s blackface was artistic genius, too.

    here’s another view on the Barack bit:

    http://knockthehustleblog.typepad.com/hustleknockin/2008/02/you-know-the-tw.html

  8. KXB wrote:

    Men in women’s clothing has always been a go-to move for comics. Jamie Foxx, Gene Hackman, Chris Farley, Adam Sandler, John Leguizamo - have all done major acts in drag. The skit suffered from being drawn out too long.

  9. ANN wrote:

    “…Virginiaca (because black women’s names are considered ridiculous when they’re not anglo like Susan, Linda or Jane)”

    As a black woman, I find names like “Virginiaca” ridiculous not because “they’re black” but because they sound silly and have no significant meaning or purpose to them aside from “sounding black”. PC is covering up the fact that these names are, for the most part, contrived nonsense created by poorer blacks who are taught that these names have some sort of significant racial meaning when in fact they are created by people who have convinced themselves that these names “sound black” and are therefore “black”. I’m by no means claiming that “white” names like James, Amy, Beth and John are better. But you can find a whole slew of beautiful ethnic names of African/Arabic/Asian etc. origin that don’t sound contrived and excuse the expression, “ghetto” as African-American names like Tyresha or Shekembria Alize as was seen on The Tyra Banks Show *rolls eyes*.

    But with regards to SNL, that whole show is not funny and I can’t remeber when I actually tuned in for an episode. The above mentioned skit sounds like trash and Keenan should be ashamed of himself for promoting such nonsensical, stereotypical ideals such as the “big, sassy black woman with an unpronouncable name”.

  10. Fatemeh wrote:

    Wendi, great post. I have to admit, I am a fan of SNL, but there are uncomfortable times and you do a great job of outlining why they’re uncomfortable.

    Black Canseco also made some really, really good points about African American cast members. I had never seen these things before because I was not looking.

    God damn! I LOVE this site!

  11. erin wrote:

    I know its offensive but I love this sketch.

  12. jd wrote:

    Ann - yes, there are many beautiful non-European names out there, but if they’re attached to a black kid, white people still tend to assume that they’re “made up.” (and so what if they are? somebody came up with Jane, too. it’s not like there was a “real name” tree in the Garden of Eden)

    Bottom line is names that are “coded” black get less respect, whether it’s Khadijah or Lemonjello (have yet to see anyone produce an actual birth certificate with that one, btw)

  13. jstele wrote:

    SNL has always been an offensive TV show, at least since the 90’s. I haven’t watched it in years. You can tell they cater to the lowest denominator of white people. Their skits are very crude and racist. One time, they had a skit after the US airforce plane incident in China. The skit involved Pierce Brosnan playing this children’s TV host and he accused an Asian kid of causing the incident. The audience roared and it was not friendly laugh, either. It was reminiscent of The New Republic’s racist cover of the Clintons with buck teeth and Chinese straw hats.

    The reason SNL is racist is because the writers are racist. They just don’t have the ability to relate or even see minorities as human beings.

  14. michael wrote:

    Where have you people been? Keenan has been playing that “character” for gaes now. Whenever there’s a young white actress on the show, she gets to play his step daughter. Even Justin Timberlake played his daughter once.

    Btw, I don’t think Fred Armissen identifies as latino. He’s of german,japanese, and venezuelan descent.

  15. Black Canseco wrote:

    JD made an excellent point about the names issue. unless you’re talking about the bible or Koran or Torah or some other major historical document, pretty much all names are made-up based on one group deeming them to be beautiful, worthy or representative of something.

    Society’s pretty consistent about belittling people of color, specifically Lations and Blacks for name choices.

    Why “Jamilla” is odd and silly but Janet is “normal” i’m not sure.

    The made-up name also goes to the issue of cultural heritage–you tend to compensate for what you don’t have. Communities with direct lineage to africa don’t pick names that “sound african” because they know the difference.
    Quite often when that’s done in black communities in the states it’s because there’s a hunger to recall an attachment and heritage that’s been taken from you so you do the best you can. You don’t know anyone from Nigeria, so you pick a nigerian sounding name because you know, on some level (anecdotal or otherwise) that that’s where your fam is from and you wanna feel connected.

    it’s sad actually.

    I think it (the “black-sounding” names thing) is only funny to people feel like having one’s culture and cultural ties co-opted/cut from under you without any sense of closure and time to make peace with it is funny or deserved somehow.

  16. BlurpleBerry wrote:

    I feel like the most horrible person. I laughed when I watched one of the Virginiaca skits.

    I spend all my time critisizing white people who fail to recognize white privelege, and all sorts of people for being racist or just not caring about racism, and here I am.

    I’m going to go cry now.

  17. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    I stopped watching SNL a LONG time ago - now I can see I made the right decision.

    They are still practicing the “comedy” of anti Black racial stereotype - and that is just pathetic!!

    Shame on Keenan Thompson - it’s long past the point where he should have pulled a Dave Chapelle and quit.

    And I can see why the only other Black castmember, Maya Rudolph, has to play the “Tiger Woods card” and claim she’s “multiracial”, when, by American standards, she’s as Black as I am (for the record, I’m half Irish - but, as many of my Irish co-workers have been quick to remind me, that’s not the half that shows!!!)

  18. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Ann,

    No matter what kind of names Black folks give their kids - from classical Koranic names like Khadija or Malik on out to African American inventions like Taiisha or Unique - White America will still hate us, no matter what…..

    Hell, back in the day when we named our kids John and Mary, they used to drag us in the streets and lynch us!!!

  19. sofia wrote:

    I have to admit; I chuckled during the skit. I never watch SNL so I wasn’t carrying a lot of baggage about it, so I just saw the skit as silly. I perceived the stepdaughter as a tough girl who was white but wanted to be more “ethnic” (e.g. the hairdo).

    I guess the thing is: what are you going to do about it? I don’t watch this show, so I can’t boycott it.

  20. kjen wrote:

    Satire v. Stereotype
    I’ve seen bits and pieces of Eddie Murphy’s characters on SNL before and even recognizing the stereotypes he was portraying, I have found them to be hilarious all the same.

    If Keenan was a more talented and could actually make this a funny skit would as many people have been offended?
    I think I would have been more forgiving if the skit had actually been funny, but I felt like the actors were poking fun at the characters from the get go, kind of condescending.

  21. kjen wrote:

    Naming names
    One commentator noted that names created by Blacks are shallow and meaningless (I’m exaggerating the claim but only to make a point) because the parents are only choosing the name because of how it sounds is disregarding the fact that A LOT of parents choose a child’s name by how it sounds to them/how much they like it. The unscientific,non-religious ‘ohh, that sounds like a pretty name for my baby’ naming method is a fairly common method, inspite of how much some people want to emphasis their name sake’s meaning.
    The ridicule and contempt for ‘making up’ your baby’s name partly stems from the fact that it’s considered something only poor, ignorant people do. When a celebrity named her child, Apple, it was considered “eccentric” and “bohemian.” If a poor person had done the same, it would have been because they hadn’t been exposed to enough “culture” to know that apple is only an exceptable name for a fruit and your computer.

  22. Lisa wrote:

    That was painfully unfunny. Mad Tv pwns SNL.

    The stepdaughters hair was cute though.

  23. Terry McCall wrote:

    Yeah… I watched the whole episode: negative Black stereotypes all over the place. It was really painful watching Keenan jive like that. Seemed like they really wanted to say: “ITS MARCH FIRST BLACK HISTORY MONTH IS OVER”

    But then again, I don’t watch SNL (for this reason, as well as it not being funny anymore). Maybe this happens every week. =(

  24. CMEdwards wrote:

    To KXB who equates comedians in drag to minstral show buffonary, wearing women’s clothing and “acting” as a woman doesn’t mock women - instead, it mocks men in dresses and men’s concept of femeninity.

    Minstrel shows, however, were made to laugh at, ridicule, and hold up sterotypical beliefs on black culture. If you need to see the danger of this type of comedy, please go and rent Spike Lee’s “Bamboozled”.

  25. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    And another thing… what’s the whole thing with Black actors/comedians in dresses?

    Going back all the way before I was born to Flip Wilson’s “Geraldine” character, and on up until today’s parade of brothas in dresses (Martin Lawrence, Eddie Murphy, Tyler Perry …hell, they even put Wesley Snipes in a dress once!!!) this is very common with Black actors, but unusual with their White counterparts (Milton Berle WAY back in the day and Eddie Izzard are the only ones that come to mind readily).

    What kind of statement is being made - that Black men aren’t “real men”? …perhaps it’s a sort of metaphorical version of the very real public castrations that the KKK used to do to the Black men they lynched???

    No matter what, I have a problem with it….

    ESPECIALLY in Eddie Murphy’s case, and in particular that awful stinkbomb “Norbit” - which not only had him playing a fat, oversexed, unattractive, dark skinned “mammy” character opposite Thandie Newton’s skinny lightskinned babe, but also had Murphy in “yellowface” playing a racistly stereotyped Asian character (Norbit’s adopted dad)

    Basically, it was a three for one special - racism, sexism AND fatophobia, all rolled into one bigoted package!!!

  26. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    On the naming thing - White parents give their kids unusual sounding names too.. go to a playground in Park Slope or the Upper West Side any morning and hear the moms and nannies calling for “Zoe” or “Caitlin” and you’ll see what I mean.

    But how come Chloe or Hadassa’s parents don’t get publicly vilified the way the mothers of Khadija and Jovon do?

    Could it be… oh, I don’t know - RACISM????

    [Survey says - YES]

  27. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Ann -

    I grew up with the name Latoya for the very reasons you mention. My mom said that she chose my name because it sounded pretty at the time - she would have chosen differently now.

    I also grew up with people always asking me what my name meant, which is nothing. (Though some enterprising person has now made up a Latoya name meaning, linking it to victory. I can roll with that.)

    However, I noticed most of the people who asked about my name said it was pretty, which always made me smile.

    And, I could have changed my name six years ago, or I could have used a nickname, or my more conventional middle name, “Denise.”

    But I chose to keep my name the way it is.

    Why? Because I like it, and it suits me.

    It’s not being “PC” that keeps people from calling my name “contrived nonsense” - it’s basic human courtesy.

    And to be quite frank, if anyone has a problem with me because of my name, they are a person I am better off not knowing.

  28. Cynthia wrote:

    Gregory,

    Caitlin and Zoe are NOT “odd” names. They are perfectly legitimate. Names that are not-so- legit? Apple, Princess, Radar, etc…(sorry, I’m a regular poster on Big Bad Baby Names and I have issues with certain names. I’m not even a big fan of “eee/y” (especially for boys) names as legal names, something very common with some immigrant Asian families) as well as unusual spellings like Syntheeah for Cynthia or Myekhal (I’m 99% sure this isn’t a legitmate spelling in any language) for Michael.

    I’m all for classical names. If you want to go for something more cultural, it should be legitimate to that culture. But this is all just me.

    Big Bad Baby Names

  29. nastya wrote:

    Gregory,

    To the question you posted earlier about the preponderance of black male comedians in drag, I think it’s mostly about society’s inherent “fear” of the black male.

    I believe that anything which takes the masculine (read: aggressive) edge off black men is soothing and acceptable to the sensibilities of the majority society. This includes “black man dressed up as woman,” “perpetually smiling/happy/laid-back black man,” “magical negro (selfless and sexless).”

    I’m sure the list goes on.

  30. black canseco wrote:

    “Caitlin and Zoe are NOT “odd” names. They are perfectly legitimate.”

    Says who?

    Say “Zoe” on the westside of chicago where i’m from, and most will go “oh great, here comes a ‘quirky’ white chick.”

    are folks wrong for thinking that? maybe a little sheltered, but Zoe’s a cool name because people familiar with Zoe have decided so and that’s the end of the discussion.

    I got a good friend who’s a a PHD college professor— she’s a black female named Shanita. For as long as we’ve known each other, the only people who find her name to be “funny” or “odd” or “less than” are white faculty and students. They make the worst “hood”/babymamma” assumptions about her without even knowing her. And she has to accept this without blowing her stack about it.

    She loves her name. Her family does, and so do people in her/our community. But unfortunately that’s not enough. Her name is “strange” “ethnic” and always requires some sort of explanation or excuse or defending.

    Every semester she’s gotta prove to bunches of students and faculty that she’s smarter than her name, more culturally sophisticated than her name… Fortunately she’s got a good sense of humor about it.

    The Zoe’s, Caitlin’s, Rumor’s, Last-name-as-first-names associated with white people don’t.

    Now I’m not trying to be too contrarian for contrary’s sake, but you’re helping make my/our point with that statement.

    i think this would be worthy of a separate post–not that it hasn’t been discussed before, but i’d be curious to get others thoughts on this one.

  31. Dan wrote:

    Gregory and Nastya,

    I think you’re reading a little too much into the black male comedians in drag thing.
    Patrick Swayze and John Leguizamo were also in drag with Wesley Snipes in To Wong Foo Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar

    Cary Grant - Bringing Up Baby
    Tony Curtis & Jack Lemmon - Some Like it Hot
    Jamie Farr - MASH
    Johnny Depp - Ed Wood
    Sylvester Stallone - Nighthawks
    Kurt Russell - Tango & Cash

    Look at it as a collective instead of isolating it sure does look like its for laughs.

    So maybe the majority of society is taking the edge of ALL men? mmmm… Come to think of it Owen Wilson and Matthew McConaughey always get the edge taken off by playing “perpetually smiling/happy/laid-back men”.

  32. cosmicsistren wrote:

    I didn’t know that SNL was still relevant. I watched the skit. I laughed alittle. It was stupid. SNL hasn’t been funny in at least 15 years. Who the hell watches that show? Not me. I am a plus sized woman and I don’t possess any of the qualities that have been portrayed by Keenan and Eddie Murphy. Years ago I had worked in a plus size department at a retail store. Alot of the women that came in had low self - esteem. Being big in this society is tough.

    I think that the criticisms of the sketch and that type of humor is justified but alittle excessive. Someone mentioned that Wesley Snipes wore a dress in a movie. He wasn’t the only one. Patrick Swayze was in one too. John Travolta played a woman in Hairspray. I think that black critics are so harsh is because we don’t have a wide variety of black characters that are seen on the small and big screen. Sometimes I feel that blacks are our own worst enemy. I understand that Keenan’s character was alittle degrating. If he waited for the roles where he played a positve person I think he wouldn’t be working. Folks have to eat and put clothes on their backs. Sometimes they do what they do because they love the art of acting. They are following their passion. You can’t always look to white people to change things because in their elitist minds they probably don’t think that there is anything wrong. It is a black person on the screen. Equal opportunity. I feel that whites who have creative control or who make decisions in the media and film just don’t get it.

  33. Cynthia wrote:

    Black Canseco,

    There ARE names that are considered more “redneck” or “white trash” by the middle class too. These days, Britney/Brittany is one of them.

  34. Cynthia wrote:

    ^^^ should say “considered by many”

  35. DivergentDana wrote:

    I don’t think Johnny Depp’s performance in ‘Ed Wood’ counts… that was a biopic where he was playing a transvestite director, wasn’t it?

    And couldn’t it be interpreted as a slam on both black males and females? The “blacks and Asians have interchangeable/indistinct genders” is a pretty well-established cultural meme — and it can also explain Mad TV’s tendency to dress Bobby Lee up as a woman again and again and again and again.

  36. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Dan -

    When a White actor comes on screen in a dress, it’s a joke - a representative of the group that runs America (that is, White men) condescending to put on the clothes of a woman.

    When a Black actor does it, there’s a whole long history of Black male social castration going along with him - remember, up until very recently, we were called “boy”, no matter how old we were… and if a Black “boy” didn’t know his place, the KKK were quick to come out with the rope, a can of gasoline and a very sharp knife to show that “boy”, and every other Black “boy”, what happens when he tries to act like a man.

    That history comes on screen every time a Black man’s masculinity is diminished by him being put into a dress to play the part of a either sexless or grotesquely oversexed “mammy”.

    Not to mention what it says about Black WOMEN - they are either sexless caregivers or their very sexuality is disgusting and horrible (unless they are extremely thin and extremely light skinned - just follow the trail from Lena Horne and Dorothy Dandrige down to Halle Berry, Beyonce and Jurnee Smolette and you’ll see what I mean)

  37. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Cynthia,

    Why do you care what other folks name their kids?

    If YOU like to give your kids old school Northern European names (so called “classical” names - if you only see White Nordic culture as “classical”) that’s between you and your child’s father (and the child, who can legally change his/her name at 18, at least in my state - and can replace that name with a nickname long before that).

    But, if other folks want to be creative or unique, that’s their business (even if they want to name their kid “Unique” - I once had a student who’s folks had named him just that - and, in Unique’s case, the name fit, cause he had a really unique personality)

    Or, if they want to tap into the historical tradition they came from (in the case of Black people, that would be either African or Islamic), that’s their business too.

    Plenty of my friends parents followed that route - I know a Kwame, two Khadijas, a bunch of Jamals, and even a Muhammad.

    The real problem here is, SOME folks (White people) get to name their kids whatever they want, without fear of social ridicule.

    So, they can revive old school Celtic, Germanic or Nordic names, or they can just make stuff up, and nobody says anything.

    But, if a Black person gives their child an unusual or afrocentric or islamic name, then out comes the racialized ridicule.

    The problem here isn’t people giving their kids unusual names (which has become common among Americans of all races and classes in recent years) - it’s that SOME Americans - specifically Black Americans, are ridiculted for this practice that every other American gets to do unmolested.

  38. Cynthia wrote:

    Gregory,

    I assure you that non-black people who name their children Kaylee or unusual spellings like Makenzee (rather than Mackenzie) are ridiculed too. My mom silently criticized my cousin’s new baby’s name because it was had an unconventional spelling. It’s a perfectly normal name. Unique names often signify that the parent is a nonconformist or uneducated in our society, which isn’t necessarily a good thing, at least IMHO.

    In any case, Big Bad Baby Names is not criticizing true classical names from, say, Nigeria, but names that appeared in the past 30 or so years.

  39. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Cynthia,

    Why is it so important to you what people name their kids - and, more specifically, that they give their kids upper class sounding “classical” names?

    As far as I see it, as long as the parents and children in question are happy, it’s nobody else’s business.

    Beyond that, if parents want to get “creative” what is so terrible about that? Creativity is a great thing, and most folks (especially poor and working class people) really don’t have an outlet for their creativity. If the names they create for their kids give them a creative outlet, that’s a GOOD thing, not a bad thing!

    Beyond that, as far as this “classical” thing goes - your name is Cynthia. I believe from reading your previous posts that you are Chinese Canadian.

    Since Cynthia is a EUROPEAN first name, how is it “classical” for you?

    How would you feel if people told you that your first name was “wrong”?

    You’d be pretty insulted, right?

    So, why not show the same courtesy to the Latoyas, Davons, Kareems, Khadijahs, Taiishas, Dwanas and Anfernees of the world - we get enough grief just being Black in racist America, why jump on the racial bandwagon?

  40. DivergentDana wrote:

    “Or, if they want to tap into the historical tradition they came from (in the case of Black people, that would be either African or Islamic), that’s their business too.

    Plenty of my friends parents followed that route - I know a Kwame, two Khadijas, a bunch of Jamals, and even a Muhammad.”

    Which folks are also penalized/pilloried for, and the ignorant still assume are “made-up”. “Black names” are looked down upon because they’re aren’t traditional, yes… but also because they’re… associated with black people. I love stories about crazy Roman emperors, and as a result, I discovered that many “black” male names are Roman in origin (Ex. Marcus, Darius, Tiberius)… as classically European as you can get, but people with these names — that are traditionally European, but of a subset that’s generally neglected by white Americans — are still seen as the offspring of lower-class, urban, uneducated parents.

  41. Cynthia wrote:

    Gregory,

    Classical names of any culture is perfectly fine if the parents know how to pronounce it properly and know its meaning. Invented names are not fine in my books. There’s a time and place to be creative, and I’m sorry, but naming is NOT. When I have kids and choose a Chinese middle name for them, I will probably go to a naming consultant or to my parents because I don’t want them to have a name where they can be teased.

    Here’s a thread from Big Bad Baby Names , one of many that deals with really creative (or as they might call, kree8tive).

  42. Black Canseco wrote:

    a “naming consultant”? are you for real? if that ain’t some soccermom ish, then i don’t know what is.

    lol!

    maybe all black prospective parents should get counseling before naming their children…

    then we’ll all be better off, right?

    We can just do a list of “acceptable” names and make everyone stick to it… then maybe in a generation or so everyone regardless of ethnicity will be named “Taylor” “Kyle” “John,” “Mary” “Joel” “Robert” “Cindy” “Heather”, Martha” or even “Christine”.

    All other children will get the yellow short-bus treatment until adulthood.

    all in favor, say “aye”!

  43. Aaminah wrote:

    “Invented names are not fine in my books. There’s a time and place to be creative, and I’m sorry, but naming is NOT.”

    Cynthia, your racist stripe is showing too glaringly. If it’s not where you would be creative that’s just fine. But you have no right to tell other parents when and how they can be creative.

  44. Aaminah wrote:

    BTW, ALL names were “invented” at some point. Some names that some people look on as “invented” right now will be known as “classical” in 100 years.

  45. G. D. wrote:

    To Cynthia:

    “Unique names often signify that the parent is a nonconformist or uneducated in our society, which isn’t necessarily a good thing, at least IMHO.”

    Why not? There’s nothing wrong with being a nonconformist parent (or being a nonconformist, period) and naming your child something different from the norm. I mean, it was Bill Gates’ nonconformist attitude and willingness to go against the accepted way of doing things that made him a billionaire, and it sure hasn’t hurt him none. Plus, being uneducated dosen’t always mean stupidity or just palin ignorance, as long as you’re got plain common sense. I mean,you make it sound like everything would be just fine and dandy if NOBODY ever disturbed the status quo or questioned anything that was wrong with the system. You always sound so ultra-conformist—-life would boring if EVERYBODY just went along with whatever is expected of them,or never challenged anything about society. American history proves that to be so NOT true.

    Being African-American myself, I have a problem when some black folks name their kids after a car or drink (interestingly enough, Tyra Banks had a whole show dedicated to this same subject less than 2 weeks ago—it was all about how people of various racial/cultural backgrounds were percieved due to their names, and how the negative stereotypes associated with certain names percieved as “black” or Latino had am impact on the bearers of those names.)

    Having said that, I don’t see anything with black names like Carlita, Sheneska,even Moesha (yeah, I loved that show) Ayesha, Jamal,Tariq,Tyrone (the first two are of Arabic origin, and I just recently found out that Tyrone is an old Irish name—there’s actually a Tyrone County in Ireland) because they are names we picked for ourselves alone—not for white people or other non-white folks to laugh at—plus they’re unique and different. Every child does not have be to named Bobby,Jeffrey, Jennifer,Brian, or the same boring name that everyone else has. Plus there’s nothing wrong with having a made-up name as long as it’s easy enough to pronounce properly.
    If black people weren’t a minority in this society, nobody would give a damn what we named our children, but since we always have been, THAT’S the only reason it’s even become an issue.

    You’re said over and over agian in your posts that race isn’t a big deal where you are in Canada, but you have to realize that race is a whole different ball game. It didn’t how much we as black people assimilated into this country (that was built off our free,cheap backbreaking labor for nearly 400 years,mind you) or how many “white” names we gave ourselves/our children, we were NEVER meant to be a part of this society or the status quo from day one—we were just mere chattel to be sold and bought like animals. That’s why I could give less than a damn what white people think abut us and our names, because we didn’t come from a white European background and we were forced to take white people’s names because our heritage was literally stripped from/beaten out of us, meaning that as strangers in a strange land we were forced to re-create from scratch a new American identity for ourselves—which we succeeded at despite the huge,overwhelming odds against us.

    To Gregory: I agree with everything you said, brother! You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one!

  46. bradski wrote:

    Wesley Snipes wore a dress because his character was a drag queen as was Patrick Swayze’s character in the movie “To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar.”

    Snipes’ character was not meant to be a satire of women but a representation of a gay man who was open about his sexuality.

  47. DivergentDana wrote:

    Good point, G.D. If other groups want to reference/pay homage to their primary ethnic origins with their name, surnames can often suffice. For American blacks… not so much.

  48. Dan wrote:

    People keep saying that all names were “invented” at some point, but isn’t it true that most names have some sort of root meaning in the language of the people who “invent” them?

  49. R. Prince wrote:

    Nicely put G.D.

  50. fejack wrote:

    First names have always been derived from a particular word from a specific language. This is perhaps less obvious in NorthWestern cultures, where names roots go back to Antiquity or the Middle-Ages, but in other parts of the World it is not uncommon at all for someone to be able to explain the meaning of theire first names.

    My parents were a mixed European-African couple, and they decided to pick two first names for each child: one from the European family line and another one from the Bantu family line.

    For the European part, my family features names that can be linked to German, Russian, Italian, French and Greek.

    I can understand the Afro-American’s desire to distance with European names, although it can be debated how far in History the filter should go. For obvious reasons I can understand the reluctance towards Spanish, English or Dutch names, because the early settlers came from those places. But what about Italian of Greek names? Should those names be overlooked to? Come to think of it, both the Romans and the Greeks were colonial as well. What about Hebrew names like Joseph, David and Mary? After all those names aren’t originally strictly European but Middle-Eastern and sometimes Balkanic. A lot of European names do come from the New Testament, which was written at a time when Hebrews and people of the Balkans were under the Roman colonial rule.

    I can only suggest doing homework on languages and cultures before picking a name. Sometimes, a well-chosen name can speak of the family history, speak of the circumstances of birth of that very child, or the hope that has been cast upon that child’s life.

  51. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    fejack,

    In contemporary America, it is customary for parents to have wide discression in naming their child. For a large and growing number of parents, in particular mothers, the naming of a child is a rare opportunity for them to show off their creativity. This is especially common among poor and working class parents.

    In other countries, with more monoethnic and rigid cultures, there are elaborare rules about how to name one’s children - in places like Germany and Austria, there are even fairly strict GOVERMENT REGULATIONS on naming children, and certain names are forbidden to be put on birth certificates.

    Fortunately, American parents don’t have such unbending and inflexible rules crammed down their throats!!

    Quite a few American mothers and fathers place a premium on their children having unique and unusual names - so their kid won’t have the same name as 2 or 3 other classmates (just read the comments section on any baby naming internet bulletin board, and you’ll hear exactly what I mean)

    Bottom line, people here don’t “have” to choose from a rigid set of so called “classical” names.

    Also, Dan, why is it that your list of so called “classical” names is pretty much restricted to EUROPEAN names?

    That’s really odd - considering your citing of your African ancestry?

    So, why can’t African American parents - many of whom are in fact Muslim, or have Islamic relatives - choose a ‘classical’ ARABIC name for their child?

    I guess all of those folks who name their daugheters Aisha, Malika, Mariam or Khadijah, and their sons Muhammad (the world’s most popular first name for many many many years BTW), Rachid, Abdul or Jamal are somehow “wrong” because they didn’t give a European name to their kids?

    And let’s not even get into the folks who named their kids Twana or Kwame - I guess that’s even further out of line to you?

    From one biracial Black man to another, don’t you think you’re being just a little bit negrophobic here - not to mention self hating???

  52. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    correction - halfway through the text, I made a comment to “Dan” - I MEANT fejack, but somehow it came out wrong. Sorry about that!

  53. Black Canseco wrote:

    fejack, as well thought out and articulated as your point is, the unfortunate fact is the black girl Mercedes will never be seen as “classy” as the black girl named “kelly”.

    which is too bad given the fact that mercedes is, as the name would suggest the name of girl–the european daughter of Daimler & Benz’s first wealthy customer.

    still, let’s just tell everyone who makes under oh, $60K annually(?) and everyone who’s black (just to be safe) to consult with the Cynthia’s of the world before naming their child.

    Maybe Oprah could ride shotgun on this one.
    lol!

  54. jd wrote:

    Dan - you’re right. many cultures have a tradition of giving names that mean something in that language (think of discussions of names in the bible). But, again, the idea of using those naming traditions is seen as much weirder when black parents do it. Madchen Amick’s parents named their little girl “little girl” and no one seems to think that’s weird.

  55. dan wrote:

    The real problem here is, SOME folks (White people) get to name their kids whatever they want, without fear of social ridicule.

    So, they can revive old school Celtic, Germanic or Nordic names, or they can just make stuff up, and

    nobody says anything.

    But, if a Black person gives their child an unusual or afrocentric or islamic name, then out comes the racialized ridicule.

    The problem here isn’t people giving their kids unusual names (which has become common among Americans of all races and classes in recent years) - it’s that SOME Americans - specifically Black Americans, are ridiculted for this practice that every other American gets to do unmolested.

    Gregory,
    Do you have any facts anecdotal or otherwise to base this on? I was incredulous of it as I read it, but then realized I had no facts to base my opinion. Well, actually one anecdotal, but it was a sister commenting on another’s ‘ghetto’ spelling of her name.

    So I did some searching for evidence in the online media and couldn’t find much of white folks discouraging African names of babies or even being disparaging of those names.

    “Help, my name’s Lolita” - Bad name choices nothing about African-Islamic names
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7242623.stm

    “When baby names have bad associations”-The author really doesn’t like ‘James’ nothing on African or Islamic names
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=29&entry_id=24510

    “His or her name is no game”- Discuss bad names such as ‘Rubella Graves and Cholera Peace’ nothing disparaging of African or Islamic names
    http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080306/LIVING/803060326/1032

    “Your Parents Named You What?”- Similar to above except sillier real names like “Mike Rotch,” “Hugh Jass,” “Ivana Tinkle” and “Maya Buttreeks” again nothing clearly of African or Islamic origin.
    http://www.courant.com/features/lifestyle/hc-badnames.artmar03,0,3067967.story

    “Pleased to meet ya, Carr Chase”- Similar to above
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/localnews/columnists/sblow/stories/DN-blow_02met.ART.State.Bulldog.4607be9.html

    And these two links from Slate from the ‘Freakonomics’ authors that discuss the differences in Black and White names but concludes:
    “The data show that, on average, a person with a distinctively black name—whether it is a woman named Imani or a man named DeShawn—does have a worse life outcome than a woman named Molly or a man named Jake. But it isn’t the fault of his or her name. If two black boys, Jake Williams and DeShawn Williams, are born in the same neighborhood and into the same familial and economic circumstances, they would likely have similar life outcomes. But the kind of parents who name their son Jake don’t tend to live in the same neighborhoods or share economic circumstances with the kind of parents who name their son DeShawn. And that’s why, on average, a boy named Jake will tend to earn more money and get more education than a boy named DeShawn. DeShawn’s name is an indicator—but not a cause—of his life path.”
    http://slate.com/id/2116449/
    http://www.slate.com/id/2116505/

    I’m not seeing the ’social ridicule’ of African or Islamic names by blacks. And I’m not seeing the creativity of names used only in the ‘poor and working class’ many articles above discuss it being used by all races and classes.

    Can you proved me some information otherwise?

  56. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Dan,

    I think you need to do a more thorough search, because the practice of Whites disparaging Black people for having “Black sounding” names - and middle and upper class Blacks (from Bill Cosby on down) and supposedly well meaning but actually liberal racist Whites (like the guy who wrote “Freakanomics”) discouraging African American parents from giving their kids “Black sounding” names is very well known in the United States.

    Give it another google search AND carefully reread the extensive sources you’ve already downloaded, and you’ll see what I mean.

    Unless, of course, you are one of those folks who can’t see anti Black racism even when it’s right in front of you (and there are a LOT of people out there like that).

  57. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    fejack,

    Here’s something I forgot to mention in my previous post. I checked out your website, and I found out that you are half Belgian half Congolese.

    I’m sure you know that, back when the country of your birth was known as Zaire, dictator Mobutu Sese-Seco REQUIRED that all parents give their children “classical” African names, and made folks with French sounding first names (like yours) change them to African names (starting with himself - he was born Joseph Mobutu).

    So, there’s a whole other take on “classical” names - and, following Mobutuan logic, YOU don’t have a “classically” Congolese name.

    See where that logic leads???

    Isn’t it so much better to let parents pick their own names for their kids, and not have any outside meddling???

  58. fejack wrote:

    Gregory,

    Given my European and African heritage, creativity in name picking was something I was not aware of, so thanks very much for explaining it. It helps me to understand better that reality for a part of the population in the USA. You are right about laws regarding names in some European countries. However, as the population of foreign residents has increased, some countries have started revising their laws on the matter.

    I need to emphasize that Josef, Miriam or David are not “white” names. You may know their English versions as Joseph, Mary and David, but these are 100% Semitic names. Last time I checked on the map, Middle-East wasn’t in Europe ;-)

    I definitely support parents who want to find a unique name for their child, especially if they want that to relate to their heritage.

    Yet I value too much my African heritage to allow it to be faked through made-up names. And it’s not like I’m limiting the possibilities: amongst the 53 countries and 1000’s of languages of Africa, I’m sure one can easily come up with a list of 10 names that sound classy. Still, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”, so the definition of classy may vary from one person to another.

    Regarding picking up muslim names, as if Islam was Africa’s religion as opposed to Christianism, need I remind that both Muhammad and Jesus were Middle-Eastern and not European nor African?

  59. sofia wrote:

    A general thought: I was surprised to learn that quite a few “african american” names that I’d heard over the years were actually “bona-fide” African names. Just look in the African name books.

    I have an unusual first name. It is Arabic, and it is uncommon even among Arabs (I’ve been told it’s like the equivalent of “Beatrice” among US Americans). I always get told my name is “so pretty” and beautiful and wonderful; I’m always asked for its meaning. Fortunately for me, I know exactly what my name means. I’ve asked hundreds of people over the years what their names mean, and very few people can tell me. It doesn’t matter whether their name is Joanie, or Mitchell or whatever. They have no idea, and their parents usually chose the name because it sounded nice, was common at the time, or knew somebody with that name.

    My personal PREFERENCE is to give my kids names that have a lot of meaning and significance to me - names that will reflect qualities I want my child to have (strength, courage, wisdom, love for their fellow man and woman, etc.). And I think that in 20 years, we will see so many peculiar and strangely spelled names in the public sphere that Shanita, Ta-el, and so on will just be old hat.

  60. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    fejack,

    I still have a problem with your hangup about African Americans giving their kids African or African inspired names.

    You seem to feel that we shoud only give our kids White names

    And yes, fejack, Josef, Miriam and David ARE White names - because those are Jewish names, and most Jewish people - with the exception of Ethiopian and Indian Jews - are in fact White.

    As for Islam’s status as an African religion - one, much of Africa is in fact Muslim, two, there is a long tradition of Afrocentric Black Americans converting to Islam in reaction to the White supremacism of American Christianity.

    Beyond that, there is the added problem that, in America, racist Whites (and self hating Blacks) make a point of attacking Blacks for giving our kids Islamic and/or African names.

    Your criticism of American Blacks for the way they name their kids is basically jumping on a racist bandwagon, and is really not helpful or appreciated at all.

  61. michael wrote:

    Islam is not an african religion. It’s an invader religion brought into Africa by arabs.

  62. fejack wrote:

    George,
    I was born after the “Zairianization”, so my parents were free to choose whatever name they pleased: my first name is in fact European, and the second, Bantu.
    Zaire itself isn’t an African word, the first European explorers thought it was the name of the river, where in fact, it is the word “river” (Nzadi). He he, at least we are learning stuff from this exchange of opinions.
    I wont argue about the whiteness of Middle-Easterns. They are probably in a better position to explain how they perceive themselves.

    You are right about the fact 44% of the current African population is living in Islamized areas. Yet Islam was imported to Africa. The people there were primarily Anismist before they got invaded either by the Arabs of the European. If you want to go legit, go all the way.

    I won’t be repeating myself: Sofia wrote something I agree with 100%.
    My personal PREFERENCE is to give my kids names that have a lot of meaning and significance to me - names that will reflect qualities I want my child to have (strength, courage, wisdom, love for their fellow man and woman, etc.). And I think that in 20 years, we will see so many peculiar and strangely spelled names in the public sphere that Shanita, Ta-el, and so on will just be old hat.

    My problem with made-up names is that they are stereotypical, as if African languages were’nt sophisticated enough and names could only be made up of three syllables like ungawa or zabunda. The “Lion King” benefited from some backup research: Simba is the Swahili word for “lion”, and they used that language in the movie/musical.

    If parent want to make their child proud of their African ancestry, I believe that a name with a history behind it will help. But doing some homework is the best way to keep from falling into stereotypes. Because even African-American’s can fall for that.

    Regarding Keenan’s video, that was really stereotypical and insulting to Afro-American women.

  63. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    fejack,

    I don’t know how Belgium or the Congo are, but here in America we have an old tradition - “Live and Let Live”.

    In other words, you leave me alone and I’ll leave you alone, unless your actions directly hurt me or others.

    We don’t always live up to it - but it is something that we aspire to.

    In this case, if folks want to create a name for their kid out of whole cloth, just because it “sounds good”, or it “sounds African” (or, in the case of White parents, if it “sounds Irish” or “Italian” or “German” or whatever), that’s really their business and, as long as the kid is happy with the name, that’s their business.

    Maybe YOU don’t like how they named their kid.

    That’s really not your problem and is none of your business!

    If they like it - and the kid likes it - then those are the only folks who get to have a valid opinion on the kid’s name.

    Period.

    Full Stop.

    End of Sentence.

    End of Paragraph.

    End of Story.

    Whatever judgemental opinions you have about how folks should name their children are YOUR opinions, and are in no way binding on how folks name their kids.

    Plus, at the risk of sounding national chauvinist, I’d like to remind you that this ain’t Belgium, nor is it the Congo.

    This is America, the multinational country, with no official language or culture. There are over 200 different languages spoken just in New York City alone!

    So we have no rigid, anal-retentive European-style “rules” on what a child should or shouldn’t be named - other than the general idea that the name should sound nice, not have any vulgar meaning and not get the kid subject to ridicule.

    And if the kid doesn’t like their name - they’re free to pick a nickname for their friends to call them and, when they turn 18, they can get it legally changed to whatever they want.

    That’s how our country is - and, for all the things I don’t like about America, that is one thing I DO like about our country!!!

    My name is Gregory Alexander Butler - I have no idea what Gregory means, and I think it’s my first name because my folks were fans of actor Gregory Peck.

    As for my middle name, Alexander, I think they just liked the sound of it

    I’ve had to explain to Russian and Ukranian coworkers that no, my father’s first name was NOT Alexander - apparently over there, they have one of those rigid European rules that your middle name has to be your dad’s first name.

    As for my last name - I think that some of my father’s ancestors in Ireland were servants or something like that.

    I came to that conclusion because Butler is a job title (butlers are the supervisors who are in charge of the other servants on a rich person’s estate).

    Apparently, sometime in the 1700’s the British colonial authorities began making Irish workers and farmers take last names (up til that time only the Earls - the Irish nobility - had last names over there).

    Apparently, some folks got their job title assigned as their last name.

    A lot of African Americans got their last names because some ancestor of theirs was owned by somebody with that last name.

    In other cases, especially with folks with names like “Lincoln” or “Washington” or “Jefferson” - when we won out freedom in 1865, a lot of the more political freed slaves took the names of prominent US government leaders, in particular leaders of the Revolutionary War or the Civil War, as an anti-slavery political statement.

    Later on, a similar tradition developed with first names - since Southern Whites as a rule NEVER called Black people Mr or Mrs so and so and always called us by our first names, some folks took names that were very lauditory, so a White person would have to call them by a very respectable name when they called them by first name.

    They used first names like “King” or “General” or “Queen” or “Princess” (there was a prominent Black Power movement leader in 1970’s Detroit who was named General Baker - he was born in the South, and, probably, his parents named him based on that theory).

    That’s how African Americans in particular developed our tradition of creating names - because, after all, our real names were taken away when we were kidnapped and brought to this country, and the only names we had at freedom were the first names the slaveowners gave us, which were often flat out derogatory.

    So, yes, we had to “make up” our names - often both first and last.

    That’s OUR tradition - so please don’t hate on it fejack (cause God knows plenty of White folks - and boujie- minded self hating Blacks - are ready and willing to do just that!!!)

    On Islam as an “invader religion”.

    So was Christianity and the Christians did a whole hell of a lot more damage to Africa than the Muslims did [see “middle passage”, “scramble for Africa” ect - or, for that matter, just look at the genocide King Leopold did to your country back in the 1890’s, fejack!!!].

  64. tasha wrote:

    Speaking as someone, who in reality has an ethnic name, I have been on the receiving end of a few taunts over the years, and that’s putting it mildly. (no my name is not really tasha, it’s the name of a character on tv show I was watching when I first discovered this site). However, I believe, and it’s just a hunch, that the reason why I may not have been discriminated against much for my name is because I have my father’s foreign (my dad is not a US citizen) surname. If my first name was combined with my mother’s Irish surname, people would think that she (my mother) made up my first name or that my first name was “black sounding”, but because I have a foreign/non-Anglo last name, I think I’ve been given the benefit of the doubt. More and more these days there are a lot of positive stereotypes associated with recent African immigrants and their kids, when compared to fourth or fifth generation African Americans. So, I think I’m perceived as one of them, and technically, I am, but other than the occasional trip overseas or to DC when my father had a post here, I was primarily raised by my mother’s fourth or fifth generation African American side of the family.

    I’ve heard of the naming consultant thing in the Asian community or something similar along those lines, where people mull over the baby’s name because they want there to be a balance struck between yin and yang. So, supposedly, if the last name has a lot of yin in it, then the first name should have more yang, or something like that. I would appreciate it, if someone could elaborate.

    Oh and just a thought. It’s easy to talk about parents expressing their creativity through their children’s names when the parents aren’t the ones who have to go through life with said creative or unique name. Just saying . . .

  65. Cynthia wrote:

    “This is America,” Gregory? The last time I checked, the Internet is an international thing. Also, does Fejack live in the US right now, and if he does, is he on visa or is he a Greencard holder? I am saddened to hear that you don’t know the meaning of your name. Everyone should know their names’ origins! Especially the parents who name their kids.

  66. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Cynthia,

    Yes, the internet is international.

    But we are discussing a particular national phenominon (the child naming practices of African Americans in the USA).

    So familiarity with American customs is relevant here.

    As far as not knowing the ‘meaning’ of my name - it really doesn’t matter to me (as hard to imagine as that might be for you).

    I like how “Gregory A. Butler” sounds, and it’s a very unusual name (there are only two Gregory Butlers in all of New York City!) and that’s all that really matters.

    tasha,

    Your case proves my point (the one fejack, Dan and Cynthia keep missing).

    There is a very real bias against American Black child naming practices - illustrated by the fact that you get less static because you have your father’s non European last name than you might if you had your mom’s European last name.

    In other words, African Americans are considered to be very low status, as opposed to African immigrants.

    That’s the point, this isn’t really about what folks name their kids, it’s about racial prejudice against how African Americans name their children - which is a subset of a broader racial prejudice against Blacks that is endemic in our society and has been for the last 400 years.

  67. Dan wrote:

    I think you need to do a more thorough search, because the practice of Whites disparaging Black people for having “Black sounding” names - and middle and upper class Blacks (from Bill Cosby on down) and supposedly well meaning but actually liberal racist Whites (like the guy who wrote “Freakanomics”) discouraging African American parents from giving their kids “Black sounding” names is very well known in the United States.

    Gregory,
    Actually I’ve provided actual links that contradict your opinion. If it is “very well know” you should easily be able to provide evidence in the media.

    Telling me to look deeper and adding that I might not be able to see it doesn’t support your comment. And dismissing the authors of “Freakonmics” as ‘liberal racists Whites’ doesn’t make sense. A liberal is one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways - clearly the opposite of a racist. As a matter of fact it sounds like something from the Bush administration.

    Where in any of the links does it disparage African Americans?

  68. Cynthia wrote:

    Again, Gregory, you’re missing the point. White families are just as likely to be ridiculed for bad naming. If Apple Martin wasn’t Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin’s daughter, she’d likely have tough time getting around in this world. Even as celebs, many websites were criticizing the Martins’ choice of names for their daughter!

    Unique spellings of otherwise normal names are often a sign of social class, regardless of race, even if said family is middle class. You generally don’t see too many middle to upper middle class+ black families using Le___ or De______. Names are usually European or African in heritage.

  69. Cynthia wrote:

    ^^^whoops….”even if said family is middle class” should have been deleted! I think we need an edit button here!

  70. fejack wrote:

    Racialicious.com talks about intersection of race and pop culture. The world is becoming a global village and this is a topic people from many different countries can relate with. Racialicious is neither a members-only Web site nor an Intranet so Gregory, you have to expect some interaction from the 6,400,000,000 other people that live outside the USA.

    At least we are getting some benefit from this thread: we now know slightly more than we did one week ago.

    In the USA, African Americans account for 13.1% of the population (I assume that figure includes all people with at least one drop of African blood). You sustain that your opinion it representative of the 39,000,000 African Americans. Compared to the World population, that tradition represents a generous 0.55%, so I was safe in saying that 99.45% of the World use names that actually mean something. And when I talk about the World, I don’t mean “white”. Whites account for half a billion max. Half of the world population is in China of India, and they all bear non-Christian, non-European first names that *surprise* still hold a meaning.

    Keeping that ratio in mind (99.45 >< 0.55) i hope you can understand why I am not familiar with the concept of made-up first names. I was actually really interested in learning about that peculiarity and you took the time to explain it quite thoroughly. Other African Americans in this thread don’t necessarily agree with you, but I never suggested you were wrong.

    No one is discussing your right to do as you please. You have your own heritage and you have the privilege of deciding how to pass that to your children.

    I am quite aware of the History of Belgium and Congo. I know more about the wrongdoings of Belgium than one can Google. Yet I can live with it as much as Americans can walk on soil taken from Amerindians. Being comfortable with both my heritage seems to be a problem for you. Once and for all: I am not fixed on “white” names.

    I can understand why some African American might want to give their child a name that does not related to Europe. As Cynthia said, having a mane which tells a story can always be a good way of introducing oneself to strangers. That’s a little bit harder if the name doesn’t mean anything. So that’s something to keep in mind for your child’s own good. This is my opinion and you are free to disagree but “non-whites”, accounting for 91.45% of the World, still manage to come up with first names that actually mean something.

    My very first comment on this thread had to do with the rationale and the intellectual rigor in excluding some names while including others.

    Ruling out one persecutor to pick out another rather seems to me like killing the whole purpose: it is a well-documented fac that the Arabization of Northern Africa and Southern Europe from the 7th to the 17th was a cultural genocide. To this day in Northern Africa, there is still racism towards the populations which have always resisted Arabization. It does not come as a surprise that you easily overlook those details since you like to “live and let live”.

  71. Wanna wrote:

    Interesting discussion and points made by all.

    My first name is Tawanna. When I was a child, people of all colors used to have a lot of trouble with it. But I haven’t had an issue with it in decades, and I have not personally felt any stigma with having such an ethnic sounding name.

    Except from other blacks.

    My husband told me once that when he and I were getting to know each other in college, he “was surprised at how intelligent I was for a Tawanna”. *wrinkles nose* And when I met his mother, she was blunt enough to comment on the poor choice of name my parents gave me. Since then, the only other negative experiences I have had with my name have been from other blacks on message boards.

    I would like to say that perhaps I have simply been “fortunate” to not experience any racism or prejudice based upon my name (or race).

    But I doubt that is true. It is more likely that I just didn’t take the time to notice it or care. I have much more important things to worry about than to stress over what people think of my or anyone else’s ethnic or non-traditional name. Let folks have their prejudices or what not. I as a person am much bigger than my name, my personality, spirit and intelligence are what define me. I don’t really think it would have affected my life all that much had I been named something like Heather.

    My point? Who I am in reality is so far off from the stereotype often assoicated with such a name that it is rendered irrelevant in my life. Personally - I think that instead of us being so concerned about what white people think of black American names, we should instead focus on working to change the general perceptions of what it means to be a black American. Including phasing out “comedy” skits like this one on SNL.

    By the way, I once worked with an upper-middle-class white woman who said she thought my name was very pretty. She was originally from the south, and her name was Shawonna, by the way. And, she was known to engage into some pretty racist behavior.

    Names aren’t the issue.

  72. Dan wrote:

    Nice post, fejack
    I appreciate your views of thinking/acting globally.

    Thoughts on race and culture in the US would greatly be helped if we (Americans) opened our eyes wider bringing in a greater context to our experiences.

  73. EvilAngelfish wrote:

    Sorry to hijack this topic but I couldn’t resist -
    @26 and 28 -
    It’s funny that you mention the name ‘Caitlin’ in the discussion of “weird-sounding” vs. “legitimate” names. Caitlin is ALMOST ALWAYS mispronounced by Americans (it’s an Irish name, correctly pronounced Kat-LEEN or Kath-LEEN) but somehow, it has a patina of class that names like “Shawanna” or “Kwame” don’t which I think is directly correlated to the fact that most people who are named Caitlin are not of African descent and most people who are named Shawanna or Kwame are. I’ve always been half tickled/half annoyed by the current perception of the name Tyrone. The last time I saw the name Tyrone attributed to a non-black guy was during the end credits for a black-and-white film. Tyrone is not a made-up name, it’s of Western origin but many people think of it as a “ghetto” name. Is it because most Americans who are currently named Tyrone are of African descent?

    @ Dan and Gregory A. Butler
    The only place I’ve seen stereotypically black names overtly ridiculed and/or derided is on
    naming message boards
    and in comedy sketches.

    Comment from one poster:
    “Okay I just interviewed a guy that I thought had a pretty “ghetto” name…here goes….. Aldeshaun prn al-de-shawn! CRAZY!!”

    I’m just guessing but I’m almost positive that the poor guy who went in for that interview was not white. Why is Aldeshaun “crazy” whereas Al or Shaun (or Sean for that matter) are not?

    A quick Google yielded articles that show a more subtle bias:

    NY Times article about an MIT study which suggests bias against “black” names from ‘02 here

    More articles on the study here and here

    A 2006 article on name bias in housing here

    A 2004 ABC news article here

    Of course, people with stereotypically Latin, Asian, Middle Eastern, white trash-sounding or especially eccentric names face similar biases but I have a hard time believing that a recruiter who received nearly identical resumes from say, Apple Robertson and LaTavia Robertson would call LaTavia first.

  74. EvilAngelfish wrote:

    Oh no - some of my links disappeared. Here are the URLS:
    baby name message board:
    http://www.babynamesworld.com/forum/topic31626_10.html

    3rd MIT study:
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_9_20/ai_104521293

  75. Wendi Muse wrote:

    just a quick personal anecdote on the name bit:

    at a place of employment, i was privy to some information (by way of someone leaving the place) about bias in hiring practices. it came to my attention that this person’s supervisor, in private, had mentioned that she a) did not want to hire someone with an asian last name who had applied for the position for fear that “she would have a funny accent or not be able to speak english well,” and b) expressed similar reservations regarding someone who had a “black sounding” name, noting that she couldn’t picture that person dealing with clients, ebonics being a language barrier of its own.

    so for those of you who may think names mean nothing, i hate to break it to you, but they do…at least, once coupled with racism.

    i have many asian-american friends whose parents gave them explicitly american-sounding names for that very reason, in hopes that their children would succeed, and left the homage to their chinese heritage in their middle and last names. it’s shitty that this thought even has to cross a parent’s mind, but that’s the reality we live in.

  76. Wendi Muse wrote:

    and just to go back to the original premise of the post, i agree wholeheartedly with the comment left by Wanna, at least insofar as the eradication of stereotypes is concerned. it’s less about names and more about the stereotypes associated with them, many of which could be lessened by way of picking at these representations and getting rid of them, at least as the predominate image of non whites in the media, be it comedy or otherwise.

    even though my name is whitebread as all get out, i still think that people may come up with specific race-based associations when they see me, depending on the race they assume i am that day, before i even open my mouth. no matter how i am dressed, how i speak, what my educational or occupational background is, as i expressed above, my skin color comes first, and people assign whatever meaning they want to it.

  77. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Dan, fejack, Cynthia,

    To paraphrase what many feminists said during the Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill hearings “You just don’t get it, do you?”

  78. Wendi Muse wrote:

    as one of the moderators for this site, i just wanted to remind you all of the following rules found in our comment moderation policy here at Racialicious:

    3. Don’t make personal attacks. If you’re not smart enough to win an argument without resorting to calling someone fat, stupid, crazy, or whatever, maybe you should work on your rhetorical skills.

    5. In general, let’s stay away from long, drawn-out arguments and fights. Once a thread descends into point-by-point refutations and denials, it has (not always, but a lot of the time) turned to crap.

    7. Try not to speak in generalizations. Don’t attribute characteristics to entire ethnic or racial groups. Adding modifiers like “some” or talking specifically about your personal experiences help reduce the likelihood that you’re stereotyping entire communities.

  79. Daniel wrote:

    I’d just like to point out that there seem to be at least 3 different Dans who post on this site regularly, and at least two of us are on this thread. So, I think I’ll just change my handle to Daniel.

  80. dan wrote:

    I get it.
    “The confidence of ignorance will always overcome the indecision of knowledge”

  81. gatamala wrote:

    Greg, I don’t agree w/ you 100% on whether some names are a good idea …but I hear ya!

    Name discrimination is VERY, VERY real. I used to work in the staffing industry.

    My names are Very English, Irish and English. People often are taken aback when I walk through the door. I was married to a Latino for a bit and took his name. All of the sudden the same telemarketers started having their Spanish reps call me. Folks started w/ the “where are you from?”

    But noooooo Gregory is making this all up!

  82. G. D. wrote:

    Just to back up what Gregory’s been saying–even black people make fun of what we consider “ghetto” names like Moesha,Shawanda, or Tameka (I actually knew a girl by that name when I was younger) and I also live in a black-majority city–Detroit (where names like this are common,so they’re simply the norm) and this is also a town where the mayor is named Kwame and his spouse is named Carlita, BTW. And let’s be real—ALL names were/are invented/made-up—they didn’t just pop up out of nowhere from some ancient book uncovered from some sacred ground or something. Just because a name dosen’t have a specific cultural meaning dosen’t make it inferior to one that does. And not everybody actually cares that much about what their own name means. I was named my birth name simply because my mother thought it sounded nice, not for its particular meaning (the funny thing was that years later, I found out that it has Chinese origins and means “restless” , which does describe me to a T—plus it’s a very common name).

    To Black Canseco: Tell your friend that Shanita is a very pretty name, ain’t nothing wrong with it, and that if she were to come here to the D, she’d find plenty of other Shanitas to share a name with. I have to admit, though, that I’ve always thought names that ended in an A are beautiful anyway (about half of them, at least). Plus, there are worse things that can happen to a child than giving them a strange or unusual name—they can always change said name when they turn 18.

  83. jvansteppes wrote:

    Getting back to the original context of what we’re commenting on- the Virginiaca sketch- yeah the depiction of the name is absolutely linked to the racist snickering about Black American names. I don’t know about other people here but I’ve never met an actual ‘Virginiaca’, if her name was more common, even as a relatively new name, I might not believe so firmly that this was about mocking the mixing and stretching of names that so many Americans associate with Black culture.

    On a sidenote, I thought the film ‘Crash’ was overhyped but the one moment I did like was when the racist cop is on the phone and asks what her name is and then snarls ‘oh yeah, of course you’re a Shaneequa’. Many white people ADORE the act of mocking these names.

    The assumption of such names has become integral to the white art of doing impressions of the black stereotypes they are so eager to believe in. I first noticed this trend at the school I teach at. Being a pasty lady myself, other white teachers openly confide in me that they ‘don’t have a problem with diversity, but test scores have been going down as we’ve been getting more and more Lashondas and Shawondas’. Evoking the names with a certain tone of voice has become a fluent code in today’s land of downplayed racism…

  84. MikeyP wrote:

    Don’t expect SNL to significantly raise the bar anytime in the near future. This skit, along with most of SNL, appeals primarily to early and pre-adolescents. SNL will continue to pander to this demographic as long as they remain easy to please.

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