Comments

1. Anonymous wrote:

   Oh god, that’s terrible. I read an article by her years ago, and it was the first time I had ever heard of female genital mutilation. She was well-spoken in addition to being beautiful and strong… how sad.

   Posted 01 Mar 2008 at 11:11 am ¶

2. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

   It’s sad that a woman who did so much good for the world in general (and in particular African women) had to die like that, alone in the cold waters of the Seine.

   With that said, what’s with the comment above about how “well spoken” Katoucha was?

   Ms Niane was an educated woman - her father was an archeologist, for God’s sake! So how else would you expect her to speak!!!!

   I know that nobody would go out of their way to mention that a White person from a similar class background was “well spoken”!!!

   Posted 01 Mar 2008 at 12:23 pm ¶

3. Aaron wrote:

   That is very sad. I think I first learned about FGM from her as well. I believe it was on 20/20 or something similar. She certainly used her celebrity to great effect by educating people about FGM.

   One thing about the article that rubbed me a bit the wrong way though was this:

   Vanity Fair’s fashion and style director, Michael Roberts, said Katoucha was “one those girls who used her fame to spotlight the misfortunes of others.”

   So first, just because models do tend to be young, or at least cultivate a youthful image, and aren’t in a profession that is “intellectual” or “mature”, doesn’t mean they’re not grown women and not “just girls”. Second, even if that were true, Katoucha obviously has done so much more than just modeling. She has made an important impact on me, certainly, and anonymous, and probably millions more. Maybe Mr. Roberts just couldn’t find the right words, which is understandable in an interview situation, or maybe CNN didn’t pick the best quote, but my perception is that it’s not all that uncommon to refer to models just as “girls”. And I know what I’m about to say is a great leap, but it is relevant I think, and I don’t want to go on forever explaining in detail how it makes sense. But if we think about grown women as “girls”, how does that affect our treatment of them as humans with free agency? And if women are just girls, then what about females who are still minors? What agency do we attribute to them? And as a result, how does that affect how we treat their bodies, and the control we let them have over their own bodies? I think everyone can see where I’m going with this. Again, sorry for the great leaps in reasoning there, but like I said, that quote rubbed me the wrong way, and I don’t think I’m terribly off base here, am I?

   Posted 01 Mar 2008 at 2:36 pm ¶

4. Aaron wrote:

   Alright, so I already am having second thoughts about my first comment. I can just hear all the counter-arguments in my head, which is why I was apologetic about making such great leaps.

   Someone who disagrees with me might respond by simplifying my argument, and asking, “so if we call women “girls”, this is directly causing female genital mutilation”? And to clarify, no, that is not what I’m saying at all. Putting those words in someone’s mouth, and I see that sort of thing done all the time, is a far greater stretch than any I made. Calling women girls is not the direct cause of female genital mutilation. But it is a sign of mindsets we have that devalue women. As I pointed out, calling a woman a girl can be a sign that we don’t think of women as fully free agents. And until we change these harmful mindsets about women and other minority groups, it will be impossible to end all the direct harms we do to them, such as female genital mutilation, and countless others.

   Posted 01 Mar 2008 at 2:50 pm ¶

5. G. D. wrote:

   To Aaron:

   I’m a woman, and I get what you’re saying—-you actually hit the head on the nail with that observation—it’s actually not a great leap in reasoning because models in general (even male ones sometime) always get stereotyped in the media as dumb, obviously because they’re expected to do nothing more then sit there and look pretty.
   I hate when women are referred to as girls also—you’d never see a grown man like Donald Trump being referred to as a “little rich boy”, would you? Just like the terms “b—–slap” and “wife-beaters” for a certain type of jacket (who the hell decided that that was even a cool name for a jacket,anyway?) both of which I also hate. Both terms have been pretty much accepted into mainstream society without any qualms, which is troubling in itself,and just goes to show you how any aggressive,demeaning language against women is A-ok as long as it can be passed off as a joke—like the term “ho”, which is so easily thrown about nowadays in anyone’s face like it’s no big deal. That old saying names never hurting you isn’t true—it is language itself that can be used as a weapon to club someone over the head and devalue them with.

   Posted 02 Mar 2008 at 6:17 pm ¶

6. Cynthia wrote:

   GD (and everyone “against” the term “girls” for grown women),

   Alumnae at my high school are called Old Girls. A few years ago, they sent surveys out asking if we’d like to change it to alumna/alumnae, and it was an

   Posted 03 Mar 2008 at 2:51 pm ¶

7. Cynthia wrote:

   ^^^ I meant to say that it was an OVERWHELMING NO. Old Girls it stayed.

   Posted 03 Mar 2008 at 2:52 pm ¶

8. Aaron wrote:

   Cynthia, I’m not uniformly against the use of the term girls for women. Obviously the connotations can vary greatly by context.

   “The old girls” at your school, or going out with “the girls” I think have very different connotations than “his girl friday” or “the girls” featured in the latest fashion show. As a man I obviously can’t say exactly what exactly women think of as the meaning of girls in the first two contexts, but it seems to me it implies some camaraderie, particularly “going out with the girls”, obviously, and maybe just youthfulness in how the women themselves feel. When someone refers to all girls as models, on the other hand, I think it serves to demean their abilities, pigeonholing them into just being objects, and projects youthfulness, by the speaker’s probably stereotyped definition, onto them.

   Anyway, the dependence on context is why I conceded that maybe Mr. Roberts use of “girls” in its full context was just innocent, and perhaps the publication just chose the quote poorly. But whether the original use or poor selection was at fault, it certainly came off as sexist in the article.

   Posted 03 Mar 2008 at 5:22 pm ¶

9. Kaonashi wrote:

   I saw the same article, and I think that might have been an old quote; Katoucha’s been in the modeling field for a very long time and has been very vocal about FGM for years before her book came out.

   Another thing is that women are generally called “girls” in the modeling field because…err…they generally ARE girls. The top girls keep getting younger and younger (I think Chanel Iman first started doing runway when she was 12!) and age out in their early 20s and in a field full of predators and vultures a lot of the good fashion people do remind themselves (an others, if need be) that even though they might LOOK like adult women, these are indeed “girls.” So if this quote is recent, he probably referred to her as a girl more out of force of habit than anything malicious.

   Posted 03 Mar 2008 at 11:44 pm ¶

10. dalia wrote:

    re:

    <>

    and

    the poster who asked what’s up with the comment about how well spoken she was?

    _ _ _ _ _

    imho, i’m not sure anon meant anything by it, merely stating a fact for a fact: that she was an intelligent, well-spoken woman.

    unfortunately, models aren’t always portrayed as bright/educated/having enough sense to string two sentences together, so perhaps the compli-/comment was made from that persepctive?

    just a thought.

    Posted 04 Mar 2008 at 6:39 am ¶

11. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Dalia,

    The point I had is that, usually, when somebody goes out of their way to mention that a Black person is “well spoken” or “articulate”, what they usually really mean is that most Black people are stupid, and therefore it is extrordinary that a Black person doesn’t talk like a dummy.

    For instance, Katoucha Niane was a well educated woman who’s father was an archeologist - it should be taken for granted that she’d be “well spoken” and, let’s face it, if she was White, it WOULD be taken for granted.

    Posted 04 Mar 2008 at 3:09 pm ¶

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