Not woman enough

by guest contributor Tami, originally published at What Tami Said

That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain’t I a woman?
–Sojourner Truth

Today I was reminded of my place in the female hierarchy.

I was in an impromptu meeting with a 50-something white man and a white woman who is my age, when this exchange occurred:

White male: The only people who liked that design were under 28.

White female: Under 37…I loved it.

Me: Yeah. Me too.

White male: (to white female, pointedly) Well, YOU don’t look older than 28.

White female: (to me–maybe attempting to soften white male’s comment) You don’t either.

White male: (eyeing me) Mmmm…I don’t know about that.

It is peculiar–in my experience, some white men don’t relate to black women as women. On more than one occaision, at more than one job, a white male co-worker has made comments to me that violate society’s codes of chivalry. What gentleman comments on how old a woman looks? This is not the first time the man in question has made a subtly derogatory comment about my appearance. I have also noticed how his eyes slide distastefully over my natural hair.

When I began typing this post, I worried that I was overreacting. In the re-telling, the offense seems so petty and maybe subject to interpretation. Maybe it wasn’t about race at all, maybe my co-worker simply finds me haggard looking and is surprisingly untactful. So, I called up a good friend–another black woman–that I can always count on for wise counsel. She understood exactly what I meant about the peculiar state of non-femaleness black women sometimes occupy in the mainstream. It is the weird flip side to the stereotype of the wanton black sexual temptress.

As I vented to my friend, I remembered a white male colleague from another job that seemed eager for me to join him in fawning over the beauty and style of our white female teammates. I still remember vividly the day he leaned over to me, while glancing admiringly at a female co-worker. He said something like: “Mary always looks great! She is tall and blonde and always has on the latest style or whatever. You and I just look like schlubbs.”

What does it mean? This is not about attraction. I am married and at least one of the men in question is gay. It’s not even so much about looks. My female co-workers have not been uncommonly beautiful and chic. I am not uncommonly boyish, poorly dressed or unattractive. What my co-workers have mostly been are white women–the pinnacle of American femininity. What I am is a black woman–in this society, the opposite of femininity. So, in addition to the sexism that women face and the racism that black people face, I get to feel less than feminine too.

There is nothing to be done about this, really. A male colleague not recognizing my femininity–some would call that progress. White women have fought for years to be taken off the pedestal on which society has placed them. At any rate, my experience today has nothing to do with work and productivity. One can hardly charge down to HR and file a complaint: “Bob said I look my age!” Most importantly, I have a successful working relationship with this colleague. In fact, he seems to value my counsel. He does not; however, value me as a woman. So what, right?

I still feel shitty. And that makes me mad. It makes me mad that a short exchange in a morning meeting has made me feel self-conscious all day. It makes me mad that I stared at myself in the office bathroom a little longer than usual to see if I looked “old.” It makes me mad that I began wondering if I should wear more makeup. It makes me mad that I made mental plans to upgrade my wardrobe. It makes me mad that I had to wrestle agian with the impact my natural hair may have on my career. It makes me mad that I started obsessing over the weight I need to lose and thinking about that cleansing fast I read about last week. It makes me mad that I honestly thought about including my picture with this post to prove to my readers (and myself) that I am not a hideous, hunchbacked troll.

Sometimes it is freaking tiring being a black woman in America.

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. bastard.logic on 23 Feb 2008 at 3:19 pm

    Saturday Blogwhoring…

    by matttbastard
    Ok, so I missed the midweek linkfarm–my apologies once again. Feel free to sock it to me one time in comments. Oh, and go show the one Melissa M. some love–that teaspoon don’t shine itself, dig?
    Stageleft: Affirmativ…

Comments

  1. lunanoire wrote:

    Yes, it can be tiring. I am not boyish in my style, but have been called sir on several occasions by people of different ethnicities (then again, maybe it’s a flat-chested thing). It makes me feel insecure about getting a short fro (my hair is usually worn natural in a bun).

  2. Anjuan wrote:

    In my experience, White people are simply not equipped to understand the Black Experience. Actually, how can they? Most professional occupations have a dramatic under-representation of African Americans. Therefore, the primary channel through which White people view Black people is through the media, and this has historically been the pimp/criminal/prostitute/lazy/jive-talking picture. Or, the polar opposite, the “magical negro” which is equally damaging.

    I have learned to accept this and try to be the best representative of African Americans (particularly men) that I can be everywhere I go.

  3. ccch wrote:

    Speak for yourself!. Although not living stateside since a while, I can’t imagine that not having men I’m not interested in not fawning over me can be construed as “tiring”. Forgive me if I’m missing the gist of this article, but it seems to me it boils down to personal taste/type. Obviously these two egs you mentioned weren’t into you. Were you into them?. How can their lack of interest be translated into: “Not woman enough?”.

  4. nastya wrote:

    I think what the author refers to is a sort of “invisibility.” I catch myself feeling “invisible” when I’m not extended the common courtesies (a door held open, a passing “hello” in the hallway), which are more often extended to my white counterparts.

    It’s less about wanting the attention of these men than perhaps wantingn acknowledgment.

    I’ve also been privy to many a conversation where the “hot women” were always “them,” but the equally attractive black woman isn’t even an option. Our attractiveness doesn’t *occur* to some.

    Thanks, Tami. I’m sure you’re quite beautiful.

  5. Kai wrote:

    Excellent post, Tami. I especially like your final reflections, which point to the disorienting psychic violence that is done to people of color in racist society, not because of petty ego-bruising slights (as many folks mistakenly believe upon hearing such stories) but because of a five-century-long campaign of strategic dehumanization perpetrated and propagated by structural white male supremacism, which defines much of the cultural terrain on which we interact with society and upon which we present ourselves to the world. Frederick Douglass suggested that black women recover their femininity by ascending the class ladder and taking on the trappings of upper-class white womanhood, a life of domestic leisure and frilly clothes and dainty pursuits. And indeed some black female abolotionists followed this advice and were quite effective with that approach; but obviously, there are problems with that formula. Sojourner Truth and Ida B. Wells pointed to some of those problems.

    In his controversial essay The Primeval Mitosis, Eldridge Cleaver posits that white male supremacism in the US (perhaps most clearly reflected in the institution of slavery) places white men in the position of administrators of society, the brains of society; while black men becomes society’s body, its beasts of burden. In combination with the patriarchal gender roles of class society, white men are thus cast as Omnipotent Administrators, holders of the highest societal power; and black men as Supermasculine Menials, physical and dangerous, to be controlled. Meanwhile, to compensate for the white man’s abdication of physicality, white women are pushed into the role of the Ultrafeminine, cast as dainty and frilly, physically subordinate and passive; while black women are cast as the Domestic Functionary, defeminized caregiver to all others at her own expense. Now I really don’t know the degree to which I buy into all that; and to the extent that I do, I also see inverses of each archetype; and I definitely have some problems with Cleaver; but this post made me think of it so I figured I’d offer a quick intro to this incendiary piece of classic radical black literature, just for the hell of it. ;-)

    Peace.

  6. Ck wrote:

    As a black woman being made to feel like less of a woman matters to me. Being made to feel like less of anything can affect you. I’m no Pageant Princess, I don’t want to be fawned over by guys 24/7 but when talk isn’t sanitised in the office if I’m the only female present, being treated like a mule @ work after being explicitly told that my white colleague who resembles a sloppy Michael Douglas/Yorkshire terrier cross in a wig was hired as ‘eye candy’, or being told off by my boss for wasting my tiny wage on cabs to the tube stn to avoid walking in the dark through a bad area, ‘Who would rape you?! Ha, ha!’ - Its frustrating to say the least. When this extends to the tube journey which are like rugby scrums for me, elbows in my face, stepped on, etc (never an apology) because men are making way for ‘real females’ who travel in what looks to me like little bubbles of comfort. Dammit I would like some of the chivalry I perceive is assigned to the rest of my gender.
    I fear how this (I feel) prevalent attitude is affecting the minds of the youth who like me, missed out on ‘black is beautiful’ era. I have absorbed it & developed insecurities which affect my socialisation. These negative attitudes are far reaching. Insecurities are evident in both genders when you read a black blog featuring IR couple ww/bm aside from Heidi & Seal, where discussion is always about black males inability to recognize femininity in black females & their perceived ignorant motivation for ‘dating out’ which leads to assumptions about women across the board. What about the dangerous hyper-sexualisation of young black females? perhaps they feel it’s the only way to be viewed as female while black (overcompensation due to a need for attention & ‘love’ etc?) And what about the rejection of natural black beauty – has anyone seen Lil’ Kim lately?
    I feel this attitude is also wielded by some non-black women, the comments I faced when dating the ‘hot white guy’ in uni from non-black females made me think that there is a hierarchy in effect & the consensus is that ‘Jungle Fever’ is indeed a serious malady.
    I like everyone want all my facets appreciated at one time or another, femininity, intelligence, strength, sensitivity….etc
    Sorry for my inability to be articulate & concise.

  7. squidfly wrote:

    White men have come under much more scrutiny over the years concerning their -Historical-relationship to Black Women. It makes complete sense to me that he would react this way.
    The article appears to be about other issues that writer is grappling with.
    This has nothing to do with white women and more to do with self loathing.
    And why on earth would you want the acceptance of a white male or any male for that matter as a determination of your Womanhood is beyond me.

  8. cocolamala wrote:

    I have run into the same issues myself. As a woman with hair that curls close to my scalp regardless of length, I have repeatedly had my gender questioned. In jr high, I wore natural cornrows that ended at the nape of my neck. My classmates would ask why I wasn’t ready to “grow up” and start straightening my hair like the other girls. I have also been mistaken for a boy by strangers. I was embarassed for the stranger who I was going to have to correct on such a basic term, and I felt unease at the negation of my gender identity. When I was thirteen, I begged my mom to get my ears pierced so people would be signaled that I was indeed a girl with short hair.

    I think the being on the opposite end of the beauty standard affects the degree of feminity accorded to black women. To the untrained eye, you are a beautiful woman to the extent that you can approximate western notions of femininity, including the expectation that women have longer hair than men.

    I won’t even go into being one of three black students in a class of 25 where every other kid assumes you’re going to date the other black student. Having crushes on your white science partner even though it would never occur to him to ask you out. That changed though, as I got older and began to mix with a wider group of people.

    I think the media needs to display more diverse examples of womanhood so the public can get used to seeing feminity expressed in lots of different forms.

    Even though I look different, “ain’t I a woman?” I shouldn’t need to artificially induce the perception of my gender in other people by piercing my ears or damaging my scalp with lye relaxers.

  9. michelle wrote:

    Squidfly -
    Actually, I think the author’s estimation is dead on. She makes the point that her experience is the counter to the “black temptress” image (which I think is what you may be referring to in your post). For womenin general, we talk about the whore/madonna complex, but I agree, for black women it becomes the ghetto temptress/super-non-woman complex. We are either over-sexually charged or we are non-sexual caretaker types.

    Well, I’m not sure that’s entirely accurate, but I agree on the point of us often not being acknowledged as women. Men will definitely say things to me that I can’t imagine them saying to white women. When I call them on it, they always look a little surprised at themselves.

    The thing is - this isn’t really about how white men are treating black women. That treatment is a symptom, not the disease. The issue is the perception itself - no one likes to be misunderstood, especially in a systematic way.

  10. Christopher Chambers wrote:

    Look at cable and network news–even the black, asian, latino females have to highlight their hair Beyonce style. We are still holding unlikely beauty up as the ideal–Jessica Simpson, etc. Katherine Heigl is not a natural blonde, neither is Scarlett Johanssen. It’s a bizarre ethic where if you look utterly ethnic or “gritty” or street, or befitting some stereotype, you are noticed and even lauded, but regular folks, we are pushed to the sideline.

  11. jd wrote:

    ccch - would you find it tiring to constantly hear “I don’t think of you as a woman” from people explaining how they see you as good at your job? Asking for recognition that you are, in fact, female is not necessarily the same as asking to be hit on, lusted after, etc. It’s about asking people to realize that you are fully as human as they are - that you can be competant and female, or funny and female or even (gasp!) black and female (without immediately being reduced to a stereotype of a black female).

  12. B wrote:

    Good post. I think I first realized that I wasn’t perceived as a girl–and subsequently as a woman–where I grew up when I moved somewhere else. I grew up in an overwhelmingly white town in New England, and then went to college with fairly diverse and fairly open-minded folk in NYC. Granted, random men on the street in cities can be a bit more blunt in catcalls in general than those in the ‘burbs, but that wasn’t the sort of stuff that threw me. What surprised me was the difference in how I was treated by a number of–although not all–my new classmates and peers. It probably took me at least a year to figure out what was up. Without thinking of it consciously, I think I sort of use the “do people here generally acknowledge me as woman here?” as litmus test to the subtle racial politics of a given place or among a group of people.

    I think that you’ve made it clear that your issue isn’t about vanity, but rather the complicated workings of white privilege with gender. That is to say, as women, perhaps we can all acknowledge the ill role of male privilege and negative ways sexism affects us. However, when race is added to the mix, it becomes clear that our gender not only fails to “trump” our race, but rather, we live both at the same time in ways that can parceled out into separate experiences.

  13. leo wrote:

    Interesting…

    I’ve always thought of myself as “free” of the white male gaze. As a black woman who works in a male dominated field, this can have its advantages and drawbacks.

    I can honestly say that I develop sincere frienships with a lot of the guys I work that is free of sexual ennui. Also, they tend not to question my “abilities” with regards to the job (unlike ‘pretty’ girls).

    On the other hand, it can be disconcertintg to hear your friends talk about hot a girl is in your presence. Every once in a long while, I do have to take that extra long look at myself in the mirror.

    There are some people that would never, ever “cross” the street in that way. Hence, the desexualization. It doesn’t bother me, I know how sexy I am, I have the the one I want, and I know he’s lucky to have me and I him.

  14. kristen wrote:

    “On the other hand, it can be disconcertintg to hear your friends talk about hot a girl is in your presence.”

    this is what i ususally get. on several different occasions, guys (one of whom from h.s. that I thought was hot) would confide in me about how beautiful they thought other women/girls were. I mean they would go into SERIOUS detail about what they wanted to do to those women! It was if they felt okay with telling about their fantasies about other women. i’ve never really thought that I was that attractive but damn! maybe i should go and start checking out bell towers…

  15. berrybrowne wrote:

    i very much appreciate the post. my experience tends to be that some white people (actually i think more women than men) think that i AM attractive and act like it’s the most shocking thing they’ve ever seen. the question is invariably followed up with, “are you mixed with anything?” even though i’m undeniably brown, brown, brown. they kind of seem like they can’t believe it, so they repeat themselves, and just kind of stand in front of me and stare and it’s awkward. i mean, thanks, but should i be offended?

    and it doesn’t help in the relationship sense, it’s more like i’m a museum piece, so there’s rarely a follow-up, “and would you like to have dinner with me?” or something like that. just kind of like, “the folks back home will never believe this!”

    i know this is rambling and incoherent, but it’s friday afternoon.

    thanks again.

  16. NancyP wrote:

    Interesting. I prefer to be seen as “one of the boys” at work, but then again, I can think of nothing less appealing than getting hit on at work. The colleague is tactless and selfish - who cares about his opinion of someone’s beddability?

    Older women don’t get a whole lot of respect, whatever their achievements. This is as true for white women as for women of other races/ethnicities.

  17. LeAnne wrote:

    I can relate. I had a boss who constantly commented behind my back about what I ate. I understand that we advise students on physical health, but I could help but wonder why he choose to single me out, instead of the other white girl in our office. Why did he not pick at everything she ate? Why is it that I was lucky to naturally be skinny and or else I was doomed to be fat?
    Baffled my mind. But, yes, black women are not view as pretty or sexy. If we are, it’s because there’s something wrong or strangely “non-black” about us. Or, it’s only a matter of time before our blackness catches up with us.
    hairsmystory.com

  18. DWS wrote:

    Starting out in a male dominated field 20 years ago, I recall with annoyance the comments that took the focus away from my abilities. Fast forward 15 years later those comments all but disappeared…thank goodness.

  19. forgotusername wrote:

    It’s hard to say what I would prefer. The thing I’ve noticed is that if you’re hot, no matter how much people want to ignore it, if you’re the only woman who has a hot body/nice face the men just forget about their “mental block” in finding you (black woman) “unattractive”. When that happens I’m usually less friendly towards them, I’d like them to know, yes I’m hot, but no, you’re not good enough for me, even though you seem to have just realized I’m hot…

    I do like being a black woman in these environments though, it’s just so complex and funny at times. White men who cross that invisible line (and flirt/ogle) throw the fun out sometimes, because isn’t the game funny…you’re not supposed to be attractive…yet you are so attractive. Blending in with the men can be awesome; being seen as a “woman”/object of desire has many drawbacks actually.

    Honestly, I must say, many of my white male “colleagues” know if I were white I’d be out of this world too good looking for them, so they are trying to compensate for it by not finding black women attractive. Funny

  20. B(rown) Girl wrote:

    The white male definition of womanhood is notoriously narrow: A woman is young, blond, thin, submissive, fuckable, of limited intelligence. Those of us who fall outside of this definition are non-women in the eyes of those men.

    It’s easy for some to say “Who cares what white men think of you?” But as an intelligent, assertive, super-fat brown (non-)woman who was passed over for promotion(s), paid less, left out of the loop in business decisions made by those same white men? It’s not so easy to shrug it off.

    Those in power don’t define me, but they do make decisions that affect me. So yeah, I guess I care what white men think of me because to survive in a racist, sexist society, I have to care about how they treat me and why.

  21. Fatemeh wrote:

    Tami, this is a really great insight. Your post and the comments here offer a facet of life for some women that shows a nasty alternative to the exotic, hypersexualized image that most women of color experience.

  22. thejoyprincess wrote:

    @Christopher Chambers

    you can include Jessica Simpson as another white female celeb who is NOT naturally blonde.

  23. bdsista wrote:

    squidfly, Brown really hit the nail on the head, its not about the affirmation of our womanhood solely by men (though men help and vice versa), its about power and economics and if you are a nonperson, you are not considered for promotions, etc. I have personally not had this problem, being really large in the bust area and girly (i.e. not a tomboy I took dance, not sports) I caught the other jokes and the conversations with my breasts etc. But I have known the invisibility, the assumption that I have no comment of intelligence to offer. Oh BTW, Sojourner Truth never said “Ain’t I a woman” She was a slave in New York State owned by a Dutch family and her first language was Dutch, then English. She never went south. The “Ain’t” was created by Francis Gage who was present at the convention where she gave her speech and felt it would further the abolitionists cause to have her speech be in a southern dialect since the bulk of slaves were in the south. Read Sojourner Truth: A Life, A Symbol by Nell Irvin Painter

  24. Cynthia C wrote:

    I think there are two versions of “ideal femininity” in any culture. One for f—ing and another for marriage. The former doesn’t need to be all that intelligent, but the latter should be accomplished. The idea of “accomplishment” varies from culture to culture and time period to time period. For example, the ideal middle or upper class wife in 19th century Britain or North America includes the ability to play a musical instrument relatively well and perhaps speak a bit of French (or another European language). The ability to play music was also important for women of equivilant status in China. In most cultures, needlework (as in embroidery) was very important, as was art. The ideal wife was both beautiful AND accomplished. Just being beautiful, especially in post Industrial Revoultion Britain, wasn’t good enough for MARRIAGE. I’m not even sure if that was good enough to be a MISTRESS necessarily. One night stands are, of course, another story.

  25. Adrianna wrote:

    I used to fell that way when I was living in the states. The I read the comments to the articles Drebra Dickerson wrote about wedding crashers. I was agreeing with Debra, when i read the commentators said they did not need the approval of white male to feel like a woman. I totally agree. There is also the historical tragedy that exist between black women and white males. Today white American male are intimidated by black females or only like their blond females counterparts. Is it a fetish? Who cares! If you travel it is so different. America is caught in this bubble and It has a very limited views on beauty Look at the fashion industry. I swear these designers are operating their own little fashion fascist regime. Everyone must be white, blonde,and a bag of bone. I now live in Haiti and I get harrassed daily on the streets. I wish for the invisibility that I had in America.

  26. Blanky wrote:

    Man, lots of non-white non-males speaking of how every white male defines “attractive.”

    Jeepers.

    #7, anyone?

  27. Lainad wrote:

    Reading this earlier this morning, something dawned on me that happened about 10 years ago and had always bothered me. It wasn’t until I read this post that I suddenly realized what still bothers me.

    When I was nineteen, I met and eventually dated this white guy for over four years. He never committed and during that time I dated other people, while I waited for him to ‘make that committment.’ Obviously, that never happened. Never met the family or any of his friends and always had the nagging feeling that he was embarassed of me ( yes, I had low self-esteem). Years later we finally broke up and he moved to Europe, never returning any of my letters, etc, for three years.

    One day, he called me and even though he was living with a woman at the time, we eventually ended up having an affair of sorts. After awhile, I had asked him to dump the girl and move in with me. While he never came out and said no (but I knew that was never going to happen), he explained that the woman that he was with was the ‘only real woman he had ever known,’ that she was gentle and caring and that I was too intimidating. Not intimidating enough to fuck, I guess.

    Yeah, I felt ( and still feel a bit) guilty for doing what I did and while I have never loved anyone like I did this guy, that was it. Over the years ( he married the girl and now they have a child) what he said to me that day….in my bed, of all places, has haunted me.

    So it wasn’t until reading this post that put it all together. It wasn’t that he chose his now-wife over me, as I always knew in the back of my head that he would never marry me down with - it was that even though I had known this person for years and at one time considered him my best friend, was that he never considered me a ‘real woman.’ That incident has made me, even to this day, wary of dating non-black men. I remember the pain and the resentment of being so incredibly stupid to fall in love with such a bastard, but more worrisome, is that I believed what he told me. I wasn’t good enough, not because I was fat, ugly or whatever, but simply because of something that I could not change - and would never want to. I just remember thinking, ‘how many other people will dismiss me and disregard the fact that I am a human being?’

  28. R. Prince wrote:

    wow, touching post lainad. sorry that happened. :(

  29. Jaye wrote:

    This is a really interesting post. I was just having a conversation with a friend who is Chinese, but looks really really Filipino. She had visited family in Hong Kong over the winter break, and had gotten a lot of comments about her weight (because she’s curvy, and not stick thin, and not overweight except if size zero is the standard) and comments about how she looked Filipino, which she didn’t mind about her looks, but she did mind the insinuation that she therefore wasn’t attractive or ‘high-class’, since Filipino women tend to do more service-oriented work in HK, like housecleaners and nannies.

    I’ve gotten that most of my life too. I have brown skin from my father’s side, but I look Asian from my mother’s side, and most people think I’m Filipino or Thai. I grew up with a lot of Filipino friends, so to me, I think of Filipino women as intelligent, funny, opinionated, and quite beautiful, and it wasn’t until I was much older that I realized that society’s image of Filipino women was so different from the people I had known growing up. So when I get those comments that I look Filipino, which people intend in a derisive manner, it doesn’t really bother me.

    I’ve noticed that when I’ve traveled, different men have different reactions to me, and I’ve traveled enough to feel confident in my attractiveness. But I now live in the city where I grew up, which is predominantly whites and East Asians, and it was a shock to realize that the way I was treated growing up had something to do with ingrained racism. I’ve been on the end of every stereotype, from hot girl who must therefore be stupid, to awkward unattractive girl that we don’t have to extend common ‘chivalrous’ courtesies to…that it doesn’t affect my self-image anymore, but that doesn’t mean I don’t take notice of the racism??…sexism??…whatever –ism is going on.

  30. tami wrote:

    From one Tami, to another Tami, I know what you mean. I’m a black female married to a white male and we get questions regarding my woman hood all the time. It comes from Men and Women from his own race. They must know that I’m standing right next to him holding his hand I would often think… So, maybe in the minds of many white people (not all) we are invisible.

    I can recall a time when I was at church with my husband when a friend of the family came over and told my husband I just have to ask you; how do you deal with her hair? Is it real or fake does she wash it everyday… and then as if that was not enough she asked… what does her hair look like when it is wet? I wanted to scream at the top of my lungs… bitch I’m standing right here! However, my husband told her that my hair looks the same as hers when I get out ot the shower… WET!!!! So, the same goes with many white men… who will introduce their hot white female version to my husband as I have someone I know you will definetly want to meet???? Oh, are you with anyone tonight? Like I’m not there… Jeff, will answer I brought my wife and before he can tell them the woman who has been standing next to him all night is his wife… again like they didn’t see me. The bastard will say well where is she I would love to meet her? When he introduces me they look shocked as though I am not good enough… One even exclaimed well I didn’t know you married a black…. as though it were something bad. Then went on to say “Well you never know who people are married to these days”.

    So, you have every right to feel upset and to question the motives of all this behavior. It’s not about sexuality. It’s about your right to be acknowledge for being a human-being and a Woman next… after all as much as we would like to pretend that race and gender does not matter… well one would only have to take a short glance at the presidential primary to know that it’s just not true… It all really matters.

    Stereotypes hurt people and affects who they are; where they work and with whom in some cases. It also sadly defines who we are allowed to marry. One of the women shared a very sad story about not being considered a real woman by a man she had been (screwing for 4+yrs)… A big slap in the face… in which many white men still think of us as ugly little sex toys meant to be kept as dirty little secrets. This was the way it was done in the slave days. So, it is no wonder that my husbands co-workers and others who see us together in public say by means of facial expression…. how dare you bring your dirty mistress out for public display. Not one of them ever stopped to think that I was his lawfully wedded wife… and the most beautiful woman in the world in his eyes! We even had to correct an elderly white woman on my job… who said whose husband are you messing around with? Then I showed her the wedding picture in my purse and said my own!!!!!!!

    So, lady’s keep your head up… be bold and beautiful! They can’t help but notice that you are still smiling and not walking with down cast eyes. This will make even the blindest white man or woman stop and wander just what makes her so proud?

  31. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    It’s actually kind of shocking to hear how some White men regard Black women as less than sexual!

    My experience was a little different.

    I spent the better part of 15 years working in a mostly White environment (commercial construction in Midtown Manhattan).

    This is an industry where male workers have a notorious reputation for publicly objectifying women (any woman who has ever walked past an NYC construction site between 11:45AM and 12:30PM knows EXACTLY what I’m talking about).

    I got the impression that most of them, generally speaking, preferred the women of their own race sexually (at least based on who they catcalled at in front of the jobsites and/or who they tried to flirt with when they went to a deli or McDonalds at lunchtime).

    But, they also seemed to see East Asian and South Asian women (no matter how dark they were) as on a par with White women.

    When it came to Black women, they tended to prefer women who were similar to White women in some way - lightskinned and/or skinny with a really small butt and/or long haired. Interestingly, if a dark skinned woman was very skinny with a small butt and had long hair, they would overlook her dark complexion.

    There was a similar dynamic with Latinas - the closer to White they were, the more the White guys would find them attractive.

    This wasn’t true with all of the guys, of course - some of the White guys (especially the youner ones and/or those who grew up around Blacks and/or Latin@s) would be genuinely attracted to darker skinned Black or Latina women, even those with short hair and thick curvy stereotypically “Black” figures.

    I don’t recall them regarding Black women - even those they found unattractive - being viewed as unfeminine. In general,the only women they looked upon like that were very masculine appearing lesbians (and that attitude seemed to be irregardless of race)

  32. Beth wrote:

    I think that whoever you are, if you don’t fit the “ideal” of femininity - no matter what your race is - you will be treated as though you are invisible. Unfortuntely, since the current ideal is based on small features and tiny waists, it is mainly black women who don’t conform to this picture. Even Beyonce, in my opinion, doesn’t appear to me typically black. Her hair is long, straight and blonde, her skin colour is at the lightest end of the scale, and despite being labelled “curvy” she still looks pretty willowy to me. “Curvy” these days just means “has breasts.”

    Anyway, I digress. I am not a black woman, but I am a very short, very “curvy” white woman. I quite often feel invisble, while my Asian co-workers who are slim, sleek-haired and pretty are constantly flirted with, complimented, etc. I used to mind but I don’t anymore. I don’t think in my case it is a race issue especially, just that they conform more to the “feminine” ideal.

    I find it hard to believe that a 37 year old white woman looked younger than 28, but not her colleague. In my observation it is darker skin which ages the least.

  33. Tami wrote:

    Thank you so much for all of your wonderful feedback.

    Many of you expressed very eloquently my feelings. This is not about attraction or attractiveness. It is about the subtle ways that black women are sometimes not extended the courtesies generally offered to others who are women.

    The other Tami’s experience illustrates this perfectly. She is happily married to a man who loves her. She is, I’m sure not looking for approval in the eyes of his male counterparts, but she is not expecting to be rudely dismissed and treated as less than a woman and less than human.

    It is not about self loathing. On most days I think I’m pretty damned cute (lol), and I know that my husband finds me so. But experiences like I had and the ones the other Tami shared, will make you doubt for a moment.

    I have been on the other side of the stereotype too, dealing with insulting sexual comments, or lovers who show that their affection is more exoticization than fondness for the real me. These experiences too are humiliating, marginalizing and abusive.

    No, it is not about attractiveness, attraction or self-loathing, it is about black women’s place in our societal feminine hierarchy, and how it plays out in our individual lives.

    P.S. I should add that men of color are not immune to the influence of these hierarchies…but that’s a different post.

  34. Katie wrote:

    I understand what you mean. But I think that, like some others said, this de-feminization of women occurs over race. I’m short. I’m thin. I curve in all the right places. And I’m white. But I have never been considered a woman by any white boy I have ever known.
    I’m loud. I’m opinionated. And, according to my mother and boys I’ve been interested in, “scary” and “intimidating.” Most boys are shocked when I tell them that I am interested in them romantically - they had just never considered it.
    There are many ideals that women have to fit before they are considered women. It’s awful, but true and, unfortunately for many people, a common part of life.

  35. Michelle wrote:

    I think for most of us, as women, we have learned how to deal with the humiliation of being seen as less than, or just being invisible.

    To those of you who might not understand the importance of the discussion, I believe that the discussion can lead to feeling related, and therefore healing the effects of being invisible. You know, as a “grown up”, I can deal. I can deal, I can articulate my feelings, I can “act as if”, I can hold my head up high. However, when you are a child, it is a different story. When you are eleven and you are playing spin the bottle, it is devastating to hear “I’m not kissing Michelle, she’s a Black girl!” Especially when it is coming from the cutest boy in the school! So, having this discussion makes it easier for us to talk to young Black girls who are going through this very thing, right now, today. So, Tami and Tami and all the others, I thank you. I can draw from your comments when I am dealing with young Black girls, who have yet to become women.

    @ #26. I don’t think anyone is saying that ALL White men feel any one way. But mainstream images of beauty all concur on what beauty is and who defines it. So, I think that this discussion is about White men as a whole, given, or in light of, what our culture holds up as the standard.

  36. Cider wrote:

    I am an overweight white woman and I also find myself being treated as one of the men. My partner is East Asian and I do fear that he prefers women of his race because they are smaller.

  37. B wrote:

    Wow–I wish y’all had been around in high school… there is something comforting about hearing of others’ experiences; I guess that that they validate my own. I have an old friend (we’ve known each other for some 16 years) who insists that my perception of the racial dynamics of the town we grew up in are wrong, and I find her perspective increasingly hurtful.

    @26–I agree with Michelle. I’m in the same boat as the other Tami–ie, my husband is white. In college, I dated men of various ethnicities, although some only viewed women of their own race as good enough to take home to mom. I don’t think anyone here intends to claim that all white men feel/act the same way.

    Speaking of your experiences, “other Tami,” my husband and I have been lucky to not experience quite as much blunt ugliness as of yet. (We do consciously try to avoid situations where we expect to.) However, we have had the experience of or relationship simply not being acknowledged. I assumed this issue would be resolved once we were married, and had the physical mark of matching bands, but so far, this has not been the case. He also sometimes has the experience of people who know he is married to me making racist statements about black people when I’m not around, as if they expect him–someone who has frequent contact with a real, live black woman–to validate their racist ideas with, “oh yeah, they’re all that way, and I should know!” So messed up.

  38. Kaonashi wrote:

    Personally, I do not want to be considered attractive by anyone that I work with; there’s a time and place for everything, and that is not the place. I’ve also noticed that the women who the guys fawn over and call “hot” also tend to be the women who get passed over when promotion time comes.

    If someone doesn’t consider me attractive for whatever reason (and especially if its one based on race) then that’s their problem; not mine and I’m not going to internalize it.

  39. TierList E wrote:

    It’s interesting- if depressing- to hear all these stories.

    I’ve always felt unattractive growing up, so I’ve never really questioned when guys ignored me. Along with being black I was also a nerd/dork, another group that is usually deemed ‘unfeminine’ and/or unattractive, so I never knew where the diss was coming from when I experienced it. Being as I’m also not ‘pretty black’ (and a nerd/dork) I was also ignored by a decent number of black men as well, though not as consistently.

    I was only called ugly because I was black once, lol in middle school, but the guy never liked me in general. Since then I don’t get a lot of female-oriented comments from white men. Unfortunately for my diversity requirement I don’t hang out with many (straight) white men anymore since I went into college, and the white women I know are pretty open-minded or a least considerate enough not to say anything hurtful on the topic. It helps that I don’t try to bring it up.

    I fear a bit that after I graduated I put myself in a bit of a sheltered cocoon. I’ve liked a couple of white guys that didn’t give me a time of day but I don’t know why really (lol it’s not like I’m gorgeous), and I’m vaguely going throug something similar now, but I was scared to death to know of their opinion on black women. I tend not to express interest at all unless the guy is another minority.

    Plus the couple of IR instances in my life has been . . .sketchy. Basically, if I tried to conclude how white men acted off of those men, my opinion of white guys would be incredibly low. But I think they were just huge jerks. Hopefully.

  40. B wrote:

    Kaonashi,

    I don’t think that the issue here isn’t about black women not being thought of as “hot” or attractive. Rather, it is the notion that often we’re not thought of as women at all.

    As I noted, when I moved away from where I grew up to a more open-minded setting, I wasn’t thrown by catcalls from guys on the street–in major cities, it seems like guys will do this to *anyone*–I was confused by how my peers–male and female of a variety of ethnic backgrounds–treated me. In other words, it wasn’t that I felt like I went from being an ugly duckling to a hot mama, but more like I was inducted into some club with different social mores. Women who were not black deemed me as much a member of the “girls club” as they, and my new, completely platonic male friends treated me the same way they treated female friends who were white or other races. Little things, like kisses on the cheek to say hello or goodbye, not talking about other women in a coarse manner, doing some old-school gentleman type stuff. This wasn’t special treatment they reserved for women they thought who were hot–those were women that they either asked out and dated, or pined for from afar–these guys just simply treated their female friends differently than their male ones. I don’t think that I harbored some desire to be placed on a pedestal like an antibellum southern belle or to be thought of as femme fatale or a delicate flower or any other reductive, hyper-feminized figure. It is just that it seems like those who don’t even notice that I’m female also don’t seem to notice my humanity in general, finding me too alien to even be thought of as worthy of human consideration.

  41. Wendi Muse wrote:

    i have little to contribute to this post in terms of personal experience, mainly because i have lost the ability to clearly articulate it, which is why i think some commenters have raised objections to tami’s expression of this sense of alienation that (as many commenters noted) some women experience.

    i applaud you, tami, for making an attempt to put into words the psychological effects of blackness, of being a person of color, of being a woman in a world flooded with gender and racial norms that pidgeonhole us all when we don’t ask for it.

    for those who doubt or take issue with tami’s post, bear in mind, she’s penning an experience, that is hers. she has ownership over her feelings, so there is little that you can do in order to argue those down.

    here, i, too, cosign with kai in his statements on the history of de-feminizing black women. even as hypersexual beings, as some portrayals go, we are subhuman, lacking womanhood, and as the mammy figure, we are desexualized…as the sexy mulata, we are confused and less of a woman as we only possess the ability to pleasure, but are not seen as fit for marriage, or (by the term “mulata” alone, as it means mule) to reproduce.

    it’s all of this historical conditioning that we as a society take in and have trouble acknowledging on the one hand and coping with or even putting into words on the other. so i appreciate tami’s openness here, as well as that of the commenters who have shared their own personal experiences. it takes a lot of guts.

  42. Kaonashi wrote:

    B-

    Ahhh….gotcha. ~_^

  43. Orville wrote:

    This article is very interesting and educational. I think Tami’s co worker is a jackass and an asshole he was rude, insensitive and totally out of line.

    Since I am a man of colour I had no idea the negativity women of colour encounter from white men in the workforce.
    I think this negative racist attitude to treating women of colour as less feminine goes back to the days of slavery. White female sexuality has always been placed on a pedestal as true womanhood. Black women and other women of colour are thought of as inferior.

    I knew misogyny exists but this piece articulates the feeling some women of colour have with being invisible in mainstream culture.

    I still believe in black female celebrities in pop culture have to conform to the image of whiteness in some way. Notice Beyonce is hyped to the maximum because she has Eurocentric features and the blonde weave. The blonde weave is very important because it is linking Beyonce to the white image of beauty. Halle Berry, Alicia Keys, Rihanna, are all light skinned mixed race women that once again conform to Eurocentric standards of beauty. Even darker skinned black women such as Mary J Blige she always wears the blonde weave and I wonder why?

  44. DivergentDana wrote:

    I think Beyonce would still be heavily hyped and lauded for her appearance without the blonde weave, just like Halle and Alicia Keys have been, despite their refusal to don them (except for Halle’s brief turn in B.A.P.S.). With the blonde weaves, she looks unnatural but with darker extensions, she would just look more like a dark, fuller featured Mestiza — a look that’s still deemed acceptable for public consumption. As for Rihanna, to me, she really seems like a case of “one of these things is not like the others”. I mean, take a close look at the girl’s face. Her facial features are WAY more stereotypically West African than the other women you mentioned, green eyes nonwithstanding. I have no idea why Mary J. keeps coming back to the platinum dye, especially since I feel that it only serves to detract from the underrated peaceful, serene beauty that she naturally has, ala Cate Blanchett.

  45. Cynthia wrote:

    I guess my original reply didn’t “make it” for some reason. Anyway, it was regarding Katie’s reply on how she isn’t seen as a woman by some men because she’s short and therefore not the “ideal, sexy woman.” I had said that I found it interesting because many studies have concluded that men see shorter women as more fertile (there’s actually a post in my Shorty Stories blog from November, I believe), so maybe it’s a wife vs. fantasy woman sort of thing.

  46. Kaonashi wrote:

    Has anyone else had problems getting on the site, or is it just me?

    Wendi: Add me to the list of people who think that Tami’s co-worker is a jerk with an ax to grind against her for reasons known only to himself. Some people have very curious ideas of what they think “certain people” should look like and act and when they meet someone who doesn’t fit that mold they feel uncomfortable. And then they try to bust your balls about it.

    It’s very insidious, especially considering how it is usually done; vague enough that you can’t go to HR and get him “invited to a little chat” yet enough that you start to feel bad about yourself.

  47. FranSky wrote:

    When I was 15 I had a HUGE crush on a white guy at my high school who was also in my Catholic confirmation class who we’ll call DB. I liked him so much that one day after getting my courage up I gave him a pink rose. Well I didn’t even give it to him, I had a friend march up to him, hand him the flower & say it was from me as I stood about 20 feet away.

    Later that day I got on the school bus to go home. He & I both rode the same bus, along with a bunch of other girls who went to the same school & were in the same church classes. My best friend was on the bus & overheard the girls who knew him saying “DB did that mulatto girl give you a rose?” “Did that MULATTO girl give you a rose DB” they laughed & teased. They really emphasized my race(s) and regarded me as less than because of it.

    I was devestated & really understood at that point the role perceived race can have on human relations.

    As an adult and a mixed race woman I experience a variety of reactions to my appearance based on my skin color & features. Sometimes I’m considered beautiful by older white men & some white women certainly don’t think of me as anything other than exotic. Sometimes to some Black men I’m not Black enough & therefore not as attractive, while some Black women have considered me a threat. And for the most part I don’t give a rip what anyone thinks of me. The responses vary from person to person obviously.

    But I still have not forgotten that 15 year old inside me, who knows someone, somewhere will eventually think of me as a particular race, before being a female, attractive or not. Nor have I forgotten the 23 year old inside me who asked a white lesbian to dance with me at a bar 10 years ago. She responded with “sorry I don’t dance with chocolate.” Those memories still sting once in a great while. Thanks for the thought provoking post!
    ~F

  48. Sewere wrote:

    Tami,

    Fantastic post!

    I don’t mean to take the conversation away from the original intent, but I think your post speaks directly to how black folks (especially black women) are often invalidated as love interests in interracial contexts (specifically white). As the other Tami alluded to, not only is a black woman dehumanized as a person but the very fact that a white man would be partner with her boggles the minds (or whatever the warped equivalent is) of many. I remember to instances of seeing this issue in play

    I’m reminded of the first date I had with the last woman I was in a relationship with (she happens to be of middle eastern decent) . We went out to a Karaoke bar and two different guys started hitting on her as soon as we got in with me standing right there. I didn’t think much of it until the guy came up, gave her is number and told her to call him while we were talking. As amazing and racially conscious as she is, I don’t think she got it.

    Late last year I was at a party with one of my classmates (white woman), a buddy (black guy) and his date (a white woman). An acquaintance of mine (black woman) came up to us and I introduced her to him while his girlfriend had stepped away briefly. It was clear from her body language that she was interested in him but he wasn’t. As they were talking shop (social science research) his date came back and I introduced her. It didn’t dawn on my acquaintance that the other woman was his date but she was very non-chalant about the discovery. Juxtapose this with the white dude who kept hitting on my classmate who when he was told I was her date stood for almost a minute looking dumbfounded.

    I’m going to stop rambling now and say, yeah, even when we are right there in flesh and blood we don’t exist.

  49. Michelle wrote:

    This is kinda off topic, but….

    I think that Michelle Obama’s presence in this campaign, and in fact, the mere fact that she was chosen by Barack Obama as a mate, propels us all a huge step forward. Mrs. Obama is a young, beautiful, vibrant woman. Her sexuality can’t be denied, because she has two children with her husband. So she has obviously had sex with the man. She is not a baby mama, rather she is a wife and mother. Nor is she a phenotypical example of “mammy/earth mother/asexual care taker”. So, her presence on the national stage will hopefully see the beginning of change in this arena for all Black women.

  50. Michelle wrote:

    And yes…I have had a lot of trouble getting on the site as of late.

  51. lunanoire wrote:

    Michelle,

    Yes, Mrs. Obama is a symbol that a black woman can “have it all”- husband, career, and kids. Of course, she has help from her mother and has recently stepped away from her job, but it is always an inspiration when I see “power couples” rather than “powerful husband married trophy wife whose only draw is that she’s young and hot.” Her dark skin is (chocolate) icing on the cake.

  52. Michelle wrote:

    Lunanoire,

    Lol! Chocolate icing!

    Yes, she certainly has a lot of help, you are right. And it is an inspiration to see her in spotlight.

  53. Dani wrote:

    This reminds me of a certain guy i know who believes in the whole chivalry, genlteman, hold-the-door-open-for-women thing, but it doesnt count if the woman is black. i dont think he even realises he does it but he goes out of his way to consider the feelings of caucasian women but it wouldnt even occur to him to treat black women in the same way.

    the sad thing is, the guy in question is black himself.

    and he seems to justify this by insinuating that it’s okay to disrespect women of colour because black women are “sassy” and have “attiude”, and because he has this stereotype of black women being tough, theres no point in worrying about their feelings.

    i think his attitude is insulting to everyone involved.

  54. DiosaNegra1967 wrote:

    long time lurker, 1st time poster here….

    very insightful post…..

    add one more WOC to the fray, who has felt the “sting” of invisibility…..

  55. Rosehips wrote:

    As a biracial Asian woman who grew up in the deep South, I can relate to what you’re talking about, Tami. I grew up understanding implicitly that “beautiful” or “hot” or “attractive” meant white, and as a result, I sort of retracted a bit from identifying as a girl/woman.

    Obviously, there’s more to being a subject in the world than whether you’re considered attractive or not, but tell that to a 14-year-old girl who knows on some level she’s pretty but that because she’s non-white it doesn’t count.

    To this day, if someone finds me attractive or I get male attention, there’s something deeply baffling about it to me because of how these earlier experiences formed my view of my looks. I’ve had friends accuse me of being falsely modest when I’m surprised someone finds me attractive. I’m sure this earlier experience has transformed how I view being a woman. Part of me has rejected the game because it rejected me first, and I’m much more analytical about gender norms than I would have been.

    The irony is that I now live in San Francisco, where Asian women are often fetishized. Sigh.

    Great thought-provoking post. Thanks for your honesty. As much as women don’t want to admit that the male gaze plays a part in ratifying their existence, it does in a culture that tells you you are what you look like.

    Now that I’m getting older, I feel like I’m getting back to the invisible place.

  56. diza wrote:

    Wow thank you I thought I was the only one who felt this way. Its hard to put the feeling into words exactly but the ramblings of everyone coming together sums it up really well particularly the bit about your colleague being eager for you to join him in fawning over your other female co workers and also comment 15

  57. Tracy wrote:

    Hi,
    I just wanted to add a story that really does go along with this point. Once when I was about 12 years old, I had a crush on a boy. We were both black and one day I decided to ask him to go out with me. The first thing he said to me was that my nose was too big. I was SHOCKED! for one, my nose isn’t big at all and for two, this was coming from someone whose nose was so big and spread across his face that I couldn’t believe he would say something like that to me. This was one of the only times my race/characteristics have been a direct reason for someone not liking me. the worst is that it came from someone who looked like me, possibly even”worse” in the eyes of society than me but he couldn’t get past my blackness. I’m glad it didn’t work out and that my first boyfriend was a guy (white) who could actually appreciate me and my black beauty.

  58. Patience wrote:

    I come to insert an unpopular opinion.

    As a black woman listening to other black women, I’m often struck by how completely different my experiences are. I should say, I’m no “Eva Pigford” lookalike - not exotic, or anything like that. I do have lots of people who think I’m attractive, but again, I do not look “foreign” or “mixed.” I am petite, however; 5ft, 107. That may factor.

    With that said, I’ve found throughout my adulthood (I’m 28) that I have attracted a good deal of whites men AND women. Oddly, this has happened the further South I go. Even more odd, it’s not a learing, slave master type of come on — these people genuinely approach as though it never occured to them that I’m black. To the contrary, I’m always the one who feels caught off guard. There have been a few situations where I literally didn’t realize until the last moment that I was being hit on.

    I have a theory on why - here comes the bad part - I think sometimes black women become repositories of negativity, and the energy they emit is returned to them.

    OK, let me get deeper with this, because I promise you there’s something to it.

    I recognize that there are certainly some societal realities that black women, hell black people, hell MINORITY people, are not going to escape. However, I learned early on that I lacked that “angry black person” gene that the rest of my family had - that gene that seems to make a lot of folk of color permanently angry at every white person they see. I’m more of an indifferent type. And, through some bizarre turn, I’ve never been called a racial name (knock on wood), never been in a racial incident. I find that our melanin-deficient brethren and sistren seem to warm up to me quickly; other black folks, they seem to tread lightly around.

    Here’s where I insert that I’m a regular ole black lady - not an honorary white person, ifyou know what I mean.

    So after a while I concluded that white people are totally scared of most black people. But the energy you give them is what will determine whether those initial fears disipate. There it is, for what it’s worth.

    As for being interpreted as feminine or not, I think males are very simple creatures. If you’re thin and tend to wear heels and smell good, they’ll respond. If you’re not white, they may respond with intentions of a quick shag, but they’ll respond nonetheless. If you resemble Norm from Cheers, they will not respond. Race simply doesn’t matter.

    If they’re a jerk, they will not be opening doors for you regardless of race - though, honestly, I don’t want people opening doors for me anyhow.

    Maybe my judgement is flawed. But I’ve been thinking on this for a while. And, if it helps put things in context any, I’m getting hit on by white men and women in Virginia and South Carolina. WOW.

    Is that progress? lmao It always catches me off guard…

  59. Patience wrote:

    Addendum:

    I think also we might want to give some credence to the naysayers here who are questioning why this type of attention matters. I think the post was targeting why this issue exists - and I can understand that notion: For instance, I’m a very feminine lesbian, yet on my one (and to date only) date with a white butch, she seemed to imbue me with some butch characteristics, which I attribute to the limited value of black femmes in the butch femme dynamic.

    HOWEVER …

    I do think there’s something to the notion that one need be careful what they ask for. I get catcalled on the regular by black men and it is NOT fun. I’m sure, though, that thought has occurred to us all.

  60. nichelle wrote:

    I enjoyed this read. I believe it is important that black women acknowledge the reality and pain of sexualized racism. But I also believe that there has to be a bigger space for black women to discuss, explore, and celebrate their reisistance to sexualize racism. When the first Black African female came to America she set im motion a movement which required black females to define their own femininity. In fact, our vary surivial resulted in part from our ability to define ourselves.

  61. azabache wrote:

    It’s been fascinating to read Tami’s post and subsequent comments.

    I’m of African descent, with a dark complexion. Years ago, upon my arrival at one of the Ivies, I eagerly wanted to jump into the dating scene. Race wasn’t an issue for me. But I slowly came to realize that I wasn’t anywhere near the image of the ‘ideal’ datable Ivy girl. Maybe the option honestly never occurred to my male classmates. Or maybe they thought I’d be too different to take home to their parents. And even though various friends told me I was pretty, that lesson in invisibility stayed with me for a long time.

    On the other hand, some days I feel I can control my invisibility. When I’m wearing baggy pants, no makeup, and no earrings, I sometimes get mistaken for a boy. Being an introvert, when I tuck myself in a bit while walking, I can pass unnoticed. But if I dress up, make a serious effort and I still get passed over, that’s when it stings. It’s happened often enough. And then I think, “Where did I go wrong?” Intellectually, I know it’s not my fault. But it still can hurt.

    So I was stunned when one of my good guy friends told me I was attractive, on several occasions. He’s white and Southern. I think I was so used to being outside the norm and “invisible” that to hear this, especially from someone like him, was a shock. I admit I get fuzzies when I think about it. It’s been a years-long process (and continuing!) to be at home with myself, to be truly comfortable with how I look. But it’s nice when, once in a while, someone actually sees you for your own beauty.

  62. TierList E wrote:

    Yeah, I have a complex with dressing up- I just can’t do it. And I become irritable the few times I do do it. I’m black, and an average looking one at that- I always personally thought it was a laughable joke to try to have me ever look “pretty”.

    Heh, one of the few times I was thinking not so low of myself in highschool- I had a black skirt set, modest yet cute, and I thought I showed a decent figure. I did the dressed up girly thing that many did back then: I put it on with some tights and cute black shoes (and my hair was done!) and I thought if anything people would react positively to me not looking so bummy all the time.

    I strode (lol strode indeed) into classs and one of my white guy friends looked at me horrified. He pointedly asked what I was wearing. Confused and embarrassed I lied- I said I ran out of clothes and wore it as a last resort. He said something to the extent that I hopes it never happens again so you don’t have to wear such things.

    Haha boy were my feelings hurt! I didn’t try to do anything like that again. I couldn’t really tell where the comment came from- again I was also the dorky one- or maybe he was trying to make me feel better in assuming I didn’t want to wear it- I mean I didn’t normally wear overly feminine things. But either way the few times I tried was one of the times I felt even uglier, so yeah I let that go quick.

  63. yiskra wrote:

    I recognise the encounter, and I’ve had to actively condition my way away from caring about what people I don’t care about think about me. The problem is that black women are still actively conditioned to care what some old white man thinks.
    What random white guy said was all about his prejudices, and his hang-ups, and nothing to do with you, or the way you look. Absolutely nothing. The perception of beauty is completely subjective, so doesn’t getting offended re-enforce ideas of white, male supremacy? It’s like taking what the average stormfront poster says about race as gospel truth. You wouldn’t. So why believe what random white guy infers about you?
    I’d say his lack of basic politeness, however, is a huge opportunity to declare open season, I’d say he’s earned a little dehumanisation.

  64. Ladi wrote:

    I live in Portland Oregon and sad to say the standard of femininity out here does not seem to include my dark skin, dreads or lack of a size 2 figure. It is frustrating, tiring and as many here have said dehumanizing. ESPECIALLY when you are still trying to date!!!! To not be considered because, well, you. are. not .considered.

    The flip side of that is this - I think honestly until we can look at each other and give love daily…we really can’t expect others too. Often I fear we are invisible even to ourselves and each other.
    We all go through this in some way or another, it would be nice if we could at least sing each other’s praises sweetly and often.

    And we know…in this country…it is all about the advertising… (I just think that there should be honesty in advertising)

    I work in an environment where I am only black person. While I get along with my coworkers well enough (to stay employeed) there are times when some man comes through and all I really want from him would be some kind of recognition that reminds me that I am a desirable woman. Perhaps this is a bit backward…but until I evolve…it would be nice.

    I appreciate the article and all of the comments on this board. Thanks

  65. Ally S wrote:

    I understand how this must be frustrating, but without having seen the author, it’s difficult to make an assessment as to whether the comments were related to her race or not.

    What if you *could* do with a bit more make up, or spending a tad longer on your hair / clothes in the morning? Some people could. Hard to say without all the information though…

  66. G. D. wrote:

    To Lainad:

    I know I’m a bit late in responding to your post, but I just had to say that it’s a good thing your relationship with this guy ended while you were still very young. If he couldn’t get past your being non-white, that was HIS problem, not yours—remember that. You live and you learn. I found your post so touching that I had to respond. You say he found you “too intimidating”? Sounds more like he was too insecure/immature to deal with a real woman like yourself! Whatever he said to make you feel bad about yourself, you should let it go—why should something a person said who is no longer even a part of your life anymore matter? It’s more important that you know who YOU are and feeling good abut yourself
    that matters now!

  67. orwell wrote:

    Frankly, all of you sound too intelligent to be capable of the following, but it would be sad–and in ways I can’t get into tragicomically ironic–if you misunderstood my real intent, if you didn’t give me the benefit of the doubt simply because I’m an older white male. You don’t know anything about me–whom I’ve cared about, over whose graves I’ve gotten choked up.

    The media are mostly to blame for implying that black women somehow aren’t feminine (or attractive, unless they’re Beyonce or Tyra Banks).

    Never mind the media’s promoting interracial couples of one type only. Start noticing, in ads and on other shows, the all-BLACK couples: You’ll see that the male is almost always darker than the female. What kind of message is THIS?

    I saw about a month ago a woman so dark, I would describe her (without thinking or knowing very much about it) as “Nubian”–she had tight “kinky hair” and was just stunning.

    I’ll tell you who is NOT writing these ads and scripts–or at least who isn’t doing the casting: black women, and especially those whose complexions are very dark.

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