Who is allowed to laugh at black culture?

by guest contributor Tami Winfrey Harris, originally published at What Tami Said

Last month, the New York Times reviewed comedian Chris Rock’s New Year’s Eve stand-up performance at Madison Square Garden. the review alleged that while Rock is still edgy and, most importantly, funny, the comedian has shifted his approach to racial comedy over the years. Kelefah Sanneh wrote:

Where once he held forth conspiratorially, flattering fans by sharing taboo insights with them, now he is more likely to hold forth confrontationally, as a way (perhaps) to acknowledge the Michael Scotts in the crowd. Where once he was mainly descriptive, now he is prescriptive too. Monday’s set included a long bit about when it is permissible for white people to use his favorite racial epithet (there is only one hypothetical occasion, and it involves extreme suffering); advice to women with careers not to complain to their nannies; and an explanation of why no one should have been surprised when Don Imus made his comments about the Rutgers women’s basketball team.

Conscious of the weight on his shoulders, Mr. Rock now seems a little less roguish and a little more righteous. Almost out of the blue, he asked, “Do you know how much better Seabiscuit’s life was than my grandfather’s?” And a riff on Regis Philbin built to a climax that was shocking and amusing in equal measure.

“Michael Scott” refers to the lead character on NBC’s popular “The Office.” Despite Scott’s professed tolerance, he often horrifies his staff with social gaffes related to race, gender and sexual orientation. In a recent episode, Scott performed Chris Rock’s infamous “two kinds of black people” routine and later wondered “How come Chris Rock can do a routine, and everybody finds it hilarious and groundbreaking, and then I go and do the exact same routine, same comedic timing, and people file a complaint to corporate?”

My question is not why non-black people need to tread carefully when finding humor in African American culture. I find it disingenuous when people claim to not understand why jokes at a group’s expense (or certain words) are not appropriate when they come from outside of the group.My question is, is it okay for black folks to laugh at the racial stereotypes often found in comedy? What does it say about us? And what responsibility do black comedians have to censor what they say when their words have the power to influence mainstream perceptions of our race?

The topic of race seems to be a mainstay for modern black comics. Some, like Chris Rock, are able to tackle sensitive issues deftly. But a bunch are BET’s Comic View-type hacks that traffic in “black people do this” and “white people do that” jokes. If you’ve ever heard these ubiquitous comedians, you know that in their routines the things black people do are always negative. We have bad credit. We have bad attitudes. We are always late. We are lazy. We do drugs. Black men are unfaithful. Black women are loud, aggressive and emasculating. Both black men and women are hyper sexual and crass.

These gross generalizations and stereotypes don’t seem to bother black audiences or black comedians. Is it because we have internalized society’s negative view of us? Though we’ll go to battle if a Don Imus cracks wise about black folks, do we secretly believe all the bad things people say? I find it telling that Dave Chapelle was okay with his TV show’s often prejudiced content until he noticed that a white guy was laughing a little too hard at the jokes.

I’ll admit it…I laugh at Chris Rock and Dave Chapelle. Can’t stomach the Comic View brigade, though. I would be surprised if there is a black person who hasn’t ever nodded and smirked at one of those “black people do this” routines. But laughter seems a lot like acceptance and knowing that makes me awfully uncomfortable.

Is it really okay for me, a black woman, to laugh along with stereotypes? And even if, as black people, popular comics have the right to send up African Americans and our habits, is it prudent for them to do so? Are they just polluting the social atmosphere, keeping black minds colonized and stoking prejudices in white minds?

Surprisingly, on this issue, I don’t have an answer. Maybe you do. What do you think?

Note from Carmen: If you haven’t already, be sure to check out tstorm’s excellent documentary on race and humor

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Who is Allowed to Laugh? « A Singular Voice on 11 Feb 2008 at 6:55 pm

    […] Tags: Chris Rock, Comedy, Satire trackback This is the question from Tami Winfrey Harris in a post on Racialicious. She basically asks when do racial jokes cross the line. My question is, is it okay for black folks […]

  2. Interesting Perspectives on Race and Humor « on 11 Feb 2008 at 7:49 pm

    […] Published February 12, 2008 race , tv Tags: humor, race When I read the post Who is Allowed to Laugh at Black Culture? at Racialicious this morning, I knew I wanted to respond to it. It’s a fascinating subject […]

Comments

  1. jessabean wrote:

    I don’t know if I have an answer either, but I wanted to thank you for writing about the subject.

    I’m half Asian, and I too wonder if it’s okay to laugh at the stereotypes about my race. As I grow older, I find that I laugh less and less at jokes about Asians, and wonder if perhaps they’re doing more harm that good–even if, no, especially if they are told by Asian comics.

    I like Dave Chapelle and Chris Rock, too. But comedians who joke about race tread a fine line. I think it’s more okay when I can tell the jokes are being told in a social satire sense, but otherwise, I’m not so sure.

  2. Matt wrote:

    Or for a Jew to laugh at Sara Silverman or Borat or Woody Allen. (Yes, Woody Allen - bet no one here is old enough to remember the discussions of his playing to Jewish ethnic stereotypes.) I saw Borat opening night at Times Square, and there were times people were laughing where I really wanted to ask them pointedly what exactly they were laughing at. I got the distinct impression they weren’t laughing at the same joke Sascha Baron Cohen was telling.

    But I do think a lot of these cases are really very different. Dave Chappelle plays with stereotypes rather than to them. He offers a way to deconstruct them. Of the people actually named here, I think Woody Allen and Chris Rock might be the ones who most often fail to live up to a higher ideal.

    But to tell the difference requires getting into it, and really trying to understand what’s being said, not just counting the number of stereotypes mentioned.

  3. B(rown) Girl wrote:

    A thought-provoking entry! Thank you!

    I think that Chris Rock is at the top of his game for several reasons, not the least of which is because he’s an intelligent and fearless truth-teller who has his eye on something greater than a momentary laugh.

    One reason I enjoy Rock’s comedy is because he understands that black people often knowingly (or bitterly, or laughingly) adopt stereotypes as a means of survival in a world overwhelmingly owned and run by white people. White people don’t know or recognize that black & brown people are doing this (they don’t think, perhaps, that black & brown people are intelligent enough to manage a situation in this way), so they aren’t in on the joke.

    Anyway, I think worrying about whether black comedians have the right or responsibility to reject race as a subject because it might be “polluting the social atmosphere” cuts close to blaming the cultivation of racism on the victims of racism. (There’d be no racism if we didn’t talk or joke about racism so much?)

    Short answer to the questions posed in the piece:

    I guess I don’t know either.

  4. Kandoodle wrote:

    B(rown) Girl - well said.

    I think NYT is noticing now that Chris Rock is out of the demographic that usually promotes those types of white-affirming stereotypical jokes about blacks. He’s now a man, he’s now a dad, he’s now successful, so he has the power and opportunity to affect his race in a more positive way. As a start up comedian, I’m sure his career wouldn’t have been the same if he started out like that.

  5. Alston wrote:

    “I find it disingenuous when people claim to not understand why jokes at a group’s expense (or certain words) are not appropriate when they come from outside of the group.”

    I would like to find a concise explanation of why this statement is true. If anyone could direct me, I would appreciate it.

  6. Mireille wrote:

    I don’t have an answer for this either. Comedy itself is such a difficult craft no matter the subject but when you have hot button topics such as race, gender and sexuality you end up with things that run the gamete from thoughtful yet hilarious to simple uncomfortable that causes the knee jerk ration of nervous laughter. There will be comedic masters who are able to hold a mirror to injustice and make up laugh (Dave Chappelle, Richard Pryor) and those who fall on their face, degrading themselves and their audience.
    I use to watch a lot of Logo when I lived with my father and we would watch their Out comic specials together. He would laugh harder at jokes about blatant gay male stereotypes but within an hour complain about how the only shot you ever saw from Pride on MSNBC were the leather cowboys in cut offs and feather boas.
    And what about Jeff Foxworth and the blue collar comedy tour? Do white “red necks” have the same dilemma as black folks do about internalized stereotypes? There have got to be at least a few working class white folks who want to throw up at the mere thought of Larry the Cable Guy.

    Identity comedy is a difficult thing to reckon with. I think people are willing to forgive things that make them laugh because comedy is thought to be in its nature a light hearted and therefore frivolous endeavor (which isn’t) and therefore should be cause for pause. Also, people are always more willing to forgive those who make us laugh.

    I guess this is where I throw in that, even if I find Woody Allen uproariously funny at moments, I still hate him for his brand of self centered neurotic sexism.

  7. jd wrote:

    Alston - it’s disineguous because everyone understands the exact same dynamic with regard to family. You never hear anyone say “I don’t understand why Jane can complain about her mother being a mean bitch, but when I say the same thing, she gets mad at me! Why?”

  8. atlasien wrote:

    By the way, Larry the Cable Guy is a loathsome faux-Southerner. His accent is completely fake; he was born and raised in Nebraska.

  9. Hot Tramp wrote:

    I would like to find a concise explanation of why this statement is true. If anyone could direct me, I would appreciate it.

    I think part of it is what Matt said about watching non-Jews watch Borat: “I got the distinct impression they weren’t laughing at the same joke Sascha Baron Cohen was telling.” Progressive Jews watching Borat are laughing at the dark absurdity of extreme antisemitism. Other people may come from a different place — “Ha ha, look at the funny man talking about cockroaches! He’s so right about Jews being weird and sneaky.” It’s pretty discomfiting to look around and realize that the people beside you in the theater might be laughing because they hate you.

    Same thing when a black person tells “black people” jokes and a white person tells “black people” jokes, or gay and straight people telling “gay people” jokes, etc. We assume that a person within the group being mocked doesn’t actually hate that group, and is telling a different joke altogether. Although, as others have pointed out, that’s not necessarily a safe assumption.

  10. Dan wrote:

    Hot Tramp -

    So what it seems to boil down to for a lot of people is basically the idea that some people might not be smart enough to get the joke, and therefore maybe the joke shouldn’t be told.

    That’s a line of reasoning that I find really hard to stomach, to put it mildly.

  11. Black Canseco wrote:

    Larry the Cable Guy is actually a college educated comic who knocked around in the mid 80s doing urbane Seinfeld-esque comedy before going for the pseudo redneck vibe… it’s a pretty interesting transition–he never gets called out for it; i think when whites engage in this behavior, it’s looked upon as WWF–just wrestling caracictures that aren’t meant to be taken seriously by anyone.

    what makes the stereotypes aimed at ethnic folk of color is this underlying belief that we’re simply speaking some sort of subversive truth.

  12. Scribble wrote:

    Not much to say about the larger question, but the thoughtless repetition of a comedic theme does have a way of turning into a “truth” that’s gross and utterly without nuance. “All black parents beat their kids”, is, for instance, a very pervasive meme. Could it not be because every second black comedian seems to have used it for easy laughs? What they “really” mean by it is obliterated and the stereotype remains.

    So much for overused material. At the other end of the spectrum is the “two types of black people” routine … which really can’t be done by anyone else. In any variation. Chris Rock owns it. The way he transformed “I hate n*******s” for the duration of a routine was simply astonishing. It’s one of a kind. At times it seems like the distilled essence of the principle that all humor is context-sensitive; it’s context-sensitivity taken to a stunning extreme. In other words, the man is a genius.

  13. Mireille wrote:

    I know Larry the Cable Guy is a caractures, I’m just surprised more people aren’t offended by him.

  14. Dan wrote:

    Ech. Larry the Cable Guy is everything that’s wrong with comedy. Fuck, not just comedy.

    He’s everything that’s wrong with entertainment in American culture.

  15. jen* wrote:

    I don’t know that I’d say the joke shouldn’t be told just cuz some folks are too stupid to get it - but it does make me uncomfortable, when I know white people who are watching - are laughing - but I know that they don’t get it.

    This kinda goes back to how I feel about Bill Cosby and his new schtick. I’m not one for ‘airing dirty laundry’ - never have been. So if we’ve got an issue, let’s talk about it. But let’s not bring in folks from outside the family unless we truly NEED their help [to complete the family example - say there was an actual psychological or abuse problem - you’d get outside help for that. If Johnny needs to start cleaning his room and setting the table - the family deals with that.]

    So, I find Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle hilarious. But I completely understand why Dave quit the show. And it’s one reason why I’m more apt to not laugh when the joke is at the expense of another group.

  16. sfsinger wrote:

    Great posting! Alston, another example of this is when DL Hughley was on the Tonight Show during the Don Imus situation and said how he agreed with Imus’ assessment about the women. He went on to say how he thought they were some of the most unattractive women ever. These are college students who did not deserve being attacked. There was really no joke in there, it was just mean. And because other bloggers have taken him to task for being so insulting he’s lashed out at them and claims people can’t differentiate between a critique and a joke. It would be the similar if he said he agreed with the MSNBC reporter who make the sexist comment about Chelsea Clinton being pimped out and he had said something like ‘well she is a hoe’.

  17. Matt wrote:

    As far as Larry the Cable Guy, we as a society have still not even recognized how offensive class-based insults can be. The Honeymooners was about a bus driver, aired in an age when no bus driver could afford a tv. No, it wasn’t sexist towards men - it was demeaning to the working classes.

    As for the more general question about how some folks can get away with saying some stuff, you absolutely cannot separate what is said from the context in which it’s said. (Say, “I’d like to go to Providence,” first to someone at the bus station, then to someone at the ballpark - see!) Who is speaking and who they’re speaking to are elements of the context. If you aren’t paying attention to those things, you aren’t paying attention to what is being said.

  18. ersatz wrote:

    After watching the documentary from tstorm, I couldn’t help but think about


    Shirley Q. Liquor

    . Does the intersection of sexual orientation and race in comedy end up cancelling each other out? I don’t think it should but I feel that its this reason for the lack of dialogue, especially in the gay community. Maybe it’s the nature of drag that allows people to be unaffected but it doesn’t seem right to hear the laughter of white gay males as Shirley Q. Liquor offers them her ‘ignunt-ass’ opinions.

  19. nola wrote:

    Interesting topic. I often feel conflicted by my comedic taste. Any thoughts on Lisa Lampinelli ?

  20. Black Canseco wrote:

    I saw Lampinelli on the grammy’s the other night. Why she was there i have no idea. She insisted on pointing out that she likes sleeping with black men and that they might rob you. Typical.

    Lisa Lampanelli, like Sarah Silverman, Joy Behar and Chelsea Handler all have one thing in common: they’re marginally talented white women who get away with racial slurs, class jabs and cultural insensitivity—and most importantly, being less than funny largely because they’re white women.

    Can you think of any black female comics who’ve risen to such heights using similar material and similarly lacking in talent?

    I can’t. The Queens of Comedy aren’t nearly as bankable and much of their humor was—as black women—at the expense of black women and black men to some degree.

    Lampinelli loves to call black men n-word. Why because loves sleeping with black men so that makes it okay. Joy Behar is jewish and has a black boyfriend so that makes her ignorance okay. Sarah Sliverman is jewish so again, she can bash blacks, hispanics specifically mexicans at will and “it’s just an act”.

    I know a few male comedians in LA–and almost to a man they say the same thing about them:

    Any guy no matter how talented who does material like them gets called “racist.”

  21. Colin wrote:

    I used to like Lisa Lampanelli (I’m young, give me a break!) too. I used to like Colin Quinn and Nick DiPaolo, too, until I’d ventured outside my suburb and heard white people actually call me the n-word, and I’d had white people spit on me. Actually having it used against you makes the jokes less funny, oddly enough.

  22. Matt wrote:

    I disagree that Silverman isn’t so talented. If there’s a criticism of her work that I think sticks it’s that she deals in prejudices that are outdated. But I think she does (at her best) do a lot to make people (who are inclined to think about it) think about how prejudices exist in society. That’s a tough thing to do, and I don’t think she’s always successful, but I wouldn’t lump her in with a lot of other comedians. (Besides which, I do think she’s funny.)

  23. kjen wrote:

    Rock, Chappelle, Carlin, and other “critique” comedians’ material is only truly subversive and instructive if there is a follow up discussion. Literally. After each show, the comedian should come out and explain the message and reasoning for the joke to their audience. Otherwise, they are simply reinforcing stereotypes.

  24. Black Canseco wrote:

    the subversiveness and instructiveness could come from some sort of “post-show roundtable”–who’d sit thru one tho?

    but what makes Rock, Chappelle so acceptable is that as fellow black folks, there is an on-going dialogue about what’s said amongst the audience.

    With Lampinelli, Handler, and yes Silverman, there’s no great dialog amongst her fans (i’ve seen her perform) about the topics she brings up. It’s treated as an affirmation of what people already believe about the ethnic groups they rip on. There’s no, “i wonder if that’s actually true” or “why do people think like that”. It’s simply, “oh these are jokes that are okay to tell–get over it.” And “these things that are okay to say–just don’t let the ‘wrong people’ hear you say them outloud.”

    the funny thing about white skinned privilege is you’re not forced to consider bias until someone corners you and calls you a bigot. And comedians have luxury of hiding behind the “it’s jokes–you knew what your were getting when you sat down so get over it” card.

    Chris Rock, Chappelle, Pryor, etc. have to deal with the stereotypes even when they’re not on stage;at least they did before the got famous and rich–i’m sure their money and recognition shields them from the worst stuff, but chappelle learned that money wasn’t gonna make him any less of the butt of stereotypcial humor the hard way…

  25. Matt wrote:

    Lisa Lampanelli is a completely new name to me, so I watched the clip on youtube from the Pamela Anderson roast. There’s one moment where she says, “but enough with the colored jokes.” In that moment she draws attention to herself in an interesting way, yeah? I think the best of these comedians do that a lot, while the worst don’t do it at all. (I won’t judge where Lampanelli generally fits in that spectrum.) Those moments can be -absolutely, it’s not always the case that the audience understands it that way, and that’s an important conversation, too- can be the sort of discussion people are saying has to happen after the show. That discussion can be a part of the show itself.

    That’s what, I think, separates some from others. Silverman’s “German Cars” song definitely treads a line, but I think it does that. And “Give the Jew Girl Toys” is actually remarkably insightful, basically articulating the thesis of The Price of Whiteness which I try to recommend all the time.

    Silverman and Cohen do a lot of material about a prejudice that a lot of people refuse to admit exists anymore. (Like it magically disappeared after the worst outbreak ?!? When has any prejudice ever done that?) No wonder it’s gonna be tough getting their audiences to have that serious discussion afterwards. I think we have to recognize that audience reaction is only one way of measuring how talented or progressive such comedians are. It’s not necessarily the comedians’ fault if a lot of people aren’t getting the joke.

  26. Emma wrote:

    Funny, because I was just thinking about this issue of race and humor. I’ve been doing the calendar listings for the comedy clubs in LA and it’s amazing how about, oh, 80% of the shows have something to do with identity issues: race, gender, ethnicity, religion etc. I have yet to go to any of these shows, but the titles sound kind of depressing. They all play to type: shows with Latinos that use different variations on the word “spicy” at best or jokes about “wetbacks” at worst, shows with black comedians that have “fried chicken” somewhere in the title and on and on.

    I was intrigued, though, to see this positive write-up about Chris Rock. Race and humor are obviously an inseparable pair (in the US, at least, and I’m sure abroad) but race-based humor has made me nervous for the reasons people have enumerated here. What’s the difference between stereotype-busting and stereotype-perpetuating? I think everyone likes to claim that they’re making fun of stereotypes when they use them, but that’s not always clear. When it gets so murky and people have to take such pains to explain how something is ACTUALLY stereotype-busting, I tend to be skeptical.

    When I hear about Chris Rock, I think of my ex boyfriend’s parents, who were some of the most outright racist people I’ve met. They love calling anyone who looks vaguely Middle Eastern/Arab/Muslim “sand n*****s” and they’re against the races mixing. And guess what? They loooooooooved Chris Rock. They rented all his movies and all his stand-up. Black people making fun of black people? Brilliant! I wonder how they respond to his new material, though.

  27. Occams Razor wrote:

    I’d say it’s really an all or nothing case. Either everyone is allowed to laugh at it, or no one is allowed to laugh at it. Personally, I’d prefer if no one laughed at it, but you can’t stop people from making jokes.

    Even if the jokes are about race, if they are funny, people will laugh, regardless of race. You can’t stop a white person laughing at Chris Rock joke, if it’s a good joke.

    As for making such jokes - I’d prefer no one made them, but again, good lucks stopping them. I think they do enforce a bad view.

  28. Nick wrote:

    I found The Chris Rock “N****z versus Blacks” funny specifically because it wasn’t an attack on an ethnicity, but on a particular sub-culture and world-view that exists in the white community too.

    I understand that he ditched the sketch because he noticed too many whites laughing a bit too hard, for what he felt were the wrong reasons.

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