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1. En Vogue: Muslim Women in Fashion News at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 14 Mar 2008 at 7:00 am

   […] wrote earlier on the popular perception of Muslim/Middle Eastern women as label whores, and many of these […]

Comments

1. Cynthia wrote:

   This is completely a new money thing (even if one is new middle class/upper middle class.) When I was in high school, the HK Chinese girls were the biggest label/looks whores in the world (still are!) I think I’ve talked about this here before, but on a trip to Hong Kong back in the mid 90s, I bought a skirt from a store that is equivalent to say, Gap only to be chided by the HK girls when I got home. On the other hand, the white girls thought the skirt was cool. The white girls at that time wore GAP and Roots (Canadian-based store known for sweatshirts and leather goods (and other camp/cottage stuff…and their stuff ain’t cheap)….outfitted the Canadian, US and British Olympic teams for years.. http://www.roots.com), while the HK girls thought that stuff was, well, plain/boring.

   I’d say the same thing about schools. My cousin was accepted into a business program at a smaller, lesser-known university that is down the road from a “better known” (to the Chinese community here) university. He was advised against going there and to go to a better-known school where he was accepted into a liberal arts program instead. I’d say that people like to brag about their kids going somewhere that people have heard of. If ABC U isn’t well-known outside of the locals, then no matter how good the profs and programs are, it isn’t good enough.

   Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 9:42 am ¶

2. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

   Cynthia, just a friendly reminder to please read our comment moderation policy, particularly this point:

   7. Try not to speak in generalizations. Don’t attribute characteristics to entire ethnic or racial groups. Adding modifiers like “some” or talking specifically about your personal experiences help reduce the likelihood that you’re stereotyping entire communities.

   Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 9:50 am ¶

3. Cynthia wrote:

   Carmen,

   The examples I used were based on personal experience.

   Thanks,

   C

   ***Now back to our regularly scheduled program***

   Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 10:05 am ¶

4. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

   Cynthia, I quote:

   “the HK Chinese girls were the biggest label/looks whores in the world (still are!) ”

   Um, all of them? I’m HK Chinese - does that mean I’m a label/looks whore too? And my mother too? And my sisters? And my friends?

   Using your personal experience to then generalize about an entire population also violates our comment moderation policy.

   Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 10:32 am ¶

5. Cynthia wrote:

   OK, fine, HK Chinese girls who attend Toronto-area university prepartory schools then.

   Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 10:45 am ¶

6. gatamala® wrote:

   I am glad Americans have placed themselves at the vanguard of the anti-consumption movement. *side-eye*

   have to concur that there’s nothing “western” about this obsession and the middle east could put america to shame with their label-whoring and general eurotrashiness

   Wow. All this from a book review of another crappy “chick lit” book. Wow.

   You can tell when folks are chomping at the bit to let it all come out.

   1. That Zebra print bag is hot. So are the shades, the bangles and black nail polish. Sadly, some of my favorite things have become “it”.

   2. The clothes-restriction argument makes sense. A LV saleslady told me this beeyoutifull iridescent scarf (it was on sale, maybe next year) was a huge seller in the Middle East (US folks only want the monogram bag). I couldn’t justify it for myself. However, If I covered MY head everyday…..

   3. We are so used to choices (even cheap brands) that we can afford to pretend like labels don’t matter. Face it, you can be a label-whore for a label that no one has heard of. You can also be a label whore for inexpensive, yet trendy labels. I have several pairs of Pumas that I haven’t seen on anyone else!

   4. My anecdotal $.02: I have noticed that LV - which we all know is popular in the States - is REALLY widespread amongst the populace in other places.

   I was floored by the 5 floor LV store in Harajuku. Frankly, I have never seen so many high-end bags on such a wide swath of regular folk in my life. Hell, even the dudes carried Prada and LV bags (no it wasn’t his wife’s). My understanding is that their spending on consumer goods is concentrated, i.e., they don’t buy such a wide variety of crap that they can afford to spend money (cash not credit) on a bag (which they saved up for since they are not dedicated to debt).

   I read those comments. Folks also need to be cognizant about WHERE they lived and visited. UAE, Geneva, Singapore, HK have very concentrated wealth. Just because you went to the (American) International School in those places does not mean you have bumped shoulders with the common folk.

   Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 11:07 am ¶

7. Thea wrote:

   I wonder how much of the backlash against Middle Easterners (or East Asians) chasing labels has to do with the fact that such label-chasing disrupts North American stereotypes about the Middle East being anti-American and anti-consumerist and East Asia being full of ascetic Buddhist types. POC are rewarded for acting in a way that befits stereotypes about them - conversely they’re punished when they go against the grain of those stereotypes.

   It’s also so incredibly off-putting how the commenters say things like “my Saudi girlfriend” and “the Saudi guy I used to date” - as if to imply that the speaker is not racist 1) because some of their best friends are totally not white! 2) because in sleeping with someone from the other side, they know are total authorities on the other culture. Mmhmm, dating one person from an ancient culture of millions (or even dating 7!) totally makes you an expert on it, right…

   Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 11:32 am ¶

8. Anonymous wrote:

   I understand the writer of this post’s disappointment and offense towards the ignorant and general statements left on the Jezebel blog. I also want to say as a fellow minority that internet-bashing of different cultures and ethnicities is as common as coming across salacious webcam ads or popup ads for movie promos– in other words, annoying but absolutely unavoidable.

   The internet is where people go to get out the racial frustration, curiousity and antagonism that they can’t express in polite, everyday society. As an Asian-American I’ve by far “come across” more intense and shameless racism expressed on internet messageboards, blogs etc than any time I’ve walked down the street or went to a party etc. People who have always thought certain things about certain races/ethnic groups, but were too afraid to actually say it in public, get to do it on the net.

   It’s like a cathartic experience for them. The outpouring you saw of ignorant statements is like a dam: once there’s a hole of opportunity (say, the subject matter of Middle Eastern culture comes up), the whole river starts coming through (people jump at that opportunity to contribute all their misguided opinions).

   Raising ire about anonymous internet comments, while often warranted, is not actually productive. Unless it was the actual blogger him or herself who is blatantly raising trouble about stereotypes by creating racially inflammatory posts, its of arguable use to complain about commenters.

   Often its just a one-up contest between internet commenters to prove how much more offensive or non-politically correct they can be.

   There should be studies done on what a “politically correct” society does to a person’s psyche. Because from what I’ve seen on the internet, many regular, nice, upstanding people use the web to vent all the tremendous racial hang ups they have but can’t express in real life because they’ve felt too much “pressure” to be pc. Its sort of unnerving to realize how many people there are in the United States who truly feel the need to be racially insensitive or outright racist, and can only “freely” do so under the cloack of anonymity of the internet.

   Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 11:35 am ¶

9. Cynthia wrote:

   Thea, I don’t think this is necessarily a stereotypical thing regarding Middle Easterners or East Asian. It’s more an anti-new money thing.

   Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 11:41 am ¶

10. dnA wrote:

    Only white people are allowed to stuff. If anyone else does stuff, then it becomes “these people do stuff all the time” and “how come these people are always doing stuff”.

    This later becomes “Those people do stuff because they’re greedy/lazy/stupid,” or, “I’d never date one of those people because of the stuff they do.” Next thing you know, you’re in a job interview and someone subtly hints that you’re not right for the position because he’s heard that people like you are into “stuff,” and that’s not what they’re looking for.

    I think Dave Chapelle said it best when he made that joke about fried chicken: “You know, I used to think I liked chicken because it’s succulent and juicy. Apparently, I’m GENETICALLY PREDISPOSED to liking chicken.”

    Who doesn’t like chicken? And what wealthy person doesn’t flaunt it, unless they’re deliberately trying not to flaunt it, which is kind of a flaunting it in itself?

    The ire directed at Middle Eastern women for having the (gasp) ability to enjoy the decadent pleasure of a gucci handbag or manolo blahnk boots like Westerners do is just another example of people not wanting people of color to do anything white folks are allowed to do; let alone stuff.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 12:04 pm ¶

11. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    dnA, just a friendly reminder to please read our comment moderation policy, particularly this point:

    7. Try not to speak in generalizations. Don’t attribute characteristics to entire ethnic or racial groups. Adding modifiers like “some” or talking specifically about your personal experiences help reduce the likelihood that you’re stereotyping entire communities.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 12:17 pm ¶

12. lemure wrote:

    dnA, word. Thank you for summarizing that so perfectly. mmm, now I want Popeye’s.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 12:25 pm ¶

13. dnA wrote:

    I was making a statement about white privilege and how society works, not saying “all white people are racist cuz they don’t let us do stuff.”

    It’s one of those wheels that turns regardless of whether or not someone is pushing it, and that person is often not white.

    But also, I never said “white people do this” in the first place. I said “only white people are allowed to do stuff,” not as a criticism of white people, but as a criticism of the way American culture works.

    If racism required the active participation of its beneficiaries, regardless of what race they are, it wouldn’t be very successful would it?

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 1:43 pm ¶

14. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    dnA - I know, I got what you were saying and agreed. That’s why your comment was published with a *friendly* warning about general statements. You’re fine.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 1:47 pm ¶

15. dnA wrote:

    gotcha!

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 1:53 pm ¶

16. dnA wrote:

    I’d like to add that I have white friends.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 1:53 pm ¶

17. Cynthia wrote:

    But don’t white people criticize other white people for being label whores? Ditto with Asian people with Asian people. It’s new money vs old money rather than ethnicity. It seems that many ethnic/race-based sites turn everything into a racial issue when it comes to privilege like this. It’s not.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 2:08 pm ¶

18. miss girl wrote:

    I have to admit that I am guilty of this stereotype, so thanks to the article and discussion here for opening my eyes. I suppose my stereotyping came as a result from sensationalized media (re: that episode on Oprah about 30-year old women around the world) + having no Middle Eastern/Muslim friends. God knows that when I have extra spending cash, it goes straight to the expensive boutiques and brands.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 3:35 pm ¶

19. dnA wrote:

    Ok, Cynthia, did you read the post? The problem is not that people are calling each other label whores, the problem is associating certain kinds of behavior with race. Like eating chicken, which I might add, is succulent and juicy.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 3:56 pm ¶

20. Khadija wrote:

    dNA is en pointe

    So what if some middle eaterners are label whores?
    I don’t think it’s a good thing for anyone to be that regardless of what race.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 4:03 pm ¶

21. Cynthia wrote:

    dnA, people are going to associate ANYONE who is New Money with being label whores regardless of race. I don’t think this article had anything to do with race, but rather money. It just happens that many people who are new money happen to be middle eastern. Hey, if the Internet existed 30 years ago, we’d be talking about American Jews. I actually know girls who proudly wear the label of Jewish American Princess.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 4:17 pm ¶

22. thepinkbunnymafia wrote:

    The book is not about money. A comment left on Jezebel by someone who has read the book “Um, this wasn’t the book I read this summer. This review seems to ignore all of the hard topics that the women dealt with that made up the background. I mean shopping,boy trouble, and your mother’s constant nagging can only take the comparison’s to Gossip Girl so far. The only genuine similarity I can see is that “girl” is in both titles.”
    Another person wrote
    “Just wanted to throw in a word to back up those of you who spoke up for this book - don’t mistake it for chick lit just because it has brand names and such. It broke my heart so many times over, seeing these women’s struggles and joys. I learned a lot about Saudi culture (beyond the factoids you hear in the news - women can’t drive, have to wear the hijab, etc) and it gave me a much richer appreciation for what women there experience. No pity, just a really honest and sensitive look at their lives that showed the shit they go through but also showed how they maintained their dignity.”

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 4:33 pm ¶

23. G.K. wrote:

    To Cynthia:

    After having read your posts for awhile, IMO, you always seem to want to play down race in any subject as if it dosen’t matter—in this case, the subject of Saudi women buying going all out with their newly-acquired bling—the point of the article was how stereotypes stick more to people of color (especially in a majority-white area or country, like the U.S.) and tend to affect them in a negative way. Just because it’s not a major issue where you live in Canada, dosen’t mean that it’s not a huge issue in other towns/citites/places. Race has ALWAYS been a big deal in the U.S. because white people MADE it a big deal from the day this country began—anything that determines whether you are going to have a decent quality of life, where you live, where you go to school, whether you even get the correct medical care you’re supposed to be getting, or if you even get a job at all in certain places. If we as the human race hadn’t made it (race) mean so damn much to begin with, there would be no reason for this site to exist, and we would not even be discussing this subject because there would NOTHING to discuss. Once again, just because race isn’t a big deal for you where YOU are does not mean it’s not a big deal for people in other places because it is. Seems like you’re spent way too much time around white people and been lulled into thinking that racism just dosen’t exist because they’re not racist against you. That’s not even living in the real world. Race DOES matter to a LOT of folks—get used to it.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 6:13 pm ¶

24. Colin wrote:

    It seems odd to me to say it’s not western, especially as if the labels and marketing for the labels were not by western companies. It’s as if this sort of rampant luxury consumerism is not a Western, or even just American habit, or obsession more like. As ridiculous as the generalizations are the horrendous lies perpetrated that ‘Western’ countries and peoples don’t run into similar experiences.

    It speaks so little truth in the face of the media we in America have bombarding us daily. There are shows and papers, quite successful TV shows and newspapers designed simply to tell us, as though we were only fad-minded sheep, how our favorite celebrity shopped and dressed and smelled and ate and thought and dated and spoke and walked. We have a news media that thinks the fall of one particular female celebrity is just as and many times more important than the deaths of US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, and WE’RE not a country full of “label-whores”? While not everyone may be called such a name, there has to be a reason we consume so many goods.

    Think about all the labels a vast segment of Americans consume each day. (That is what is meant by “we”)

    We spend money to eat processed, synthesized food probably with HGH or steroids.

    We spend money to drink drinks with little to no juice instead splurging on corn syrup and carbon dioxide.

    We spend money playing the latest game, or listening to the latest CD by our favorite artist, or watching movies we’ve been told to watch because this one, THIS movie or game or album is the one to beat all the others, just like they’ve all said.

    We spend money buying clothes on the cheap often knowing it’s only cheap because other people in countries without our military, economic and political power have been worked to death by unforgiving slave masters for pennies on the dollar.

    We spend money purchasing cell phones and then little cute add-ons and themes and ringtones and games and other bs while many of us know much of the unprocessed coltan used to make sure those cell phones are all nice and shiny and work comes from central Africa which is as we speak a true warzone over minerals and profits.

    I could go on but I hope the point is clear. People like those posters are no one to speak about “label-whoring” for they most likely engage in behavior that is knowingly detrimental to global society and yet they continue.

    Now, I am no better in that regard…I’m just saying…

    At least I don’t call other people “label-whores”.

    Posted 16 Jan 2008 at 9:42 pm ¶

25. Globalistgirl wrote:

    To G. K.:

    Not everyone lives in North America, and some of us need to consider race relations both inside and between countries, or in several countries. You are clearly speaking about racism in the US. Last time I checked, Saudi Arabia isn’t in the US, and you have no idea where people are from when they post here. I’m not going to speak for Cynthia, but in my personal experience you cannot take a framework for analyzing race relations from one country and apply it to another and expect a good analysis. Race relations and tensions are structured differently in different parts of the world.

    I’ve never heard anyone talk about Middle Eastern women being this, that or the other when it comes to consumerism. However, I have heard many, many, mnay conversations on the noveau riche and the blatant consumerism they engage in worldwide.

    Perhaps at least some of the commentators were just plain racist. However, there are so many stories about noveau riche throwing money around like it’s going out of style in different countries and being different ethnicities that attributing criticism of their materialism to racism as experienced and lived in the States seems just… cramped. It’s far simpler to interpret the situation as that it’s primarily a money issue and then ask is it secondarily also race issue? For example, do Europeans laugh more or less at American noveau riche than at HK Chinese or the Saudi upper class? I don’t know the answer. However, I agree with Cynthia that being noveau riche is the common denominator here, not race.

    Apologies if you’re already aware of this, but accusing white Americans of acting the same way the Saudi women are described acting is like shooting fish in a barrel in the non-American expat circles I’ve been in. Also, you can see dollar signs light up in market stall owners’ faces when they see Americans in markets in Beijing. White Europeans laugh and criticize white American for being this way non-stop. (I don’t think I can count the times I’ve heard those opinions expressed.) Perhaps there is some attitude out there that I haven’t come across when it comes to materialism, stereotypes and people of color in the US, but from my point of view it seems to have a very low correlation with race or ethnicity. The majority of criticism of being too consumerist I’ve heard has been said by white Europeans directed at white Americans, and so it’s difficult to see the race angle, at least for me.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 12:34 am ¶

26. Torontonian wrote:

    To Cynthia - Better-known university : Lesser-known university = Waterloo : Wilfred Laurier?

    To G.K. - Don’t generalize people from Canada or Toronto, or make assumptions about Canada or Toronto. Toronto is not some kind of city full of white people. In many areas, whites are the minority. I’m pretty sure Cynthia doesn’t hang around with mostly white people, given Toronto’s demographics. Cynthia’s opinions are not about her location, but rather reflect only her opinions as an individual.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 12:35 am ¶

27. dnA wrote:

    Cynthia,

    How do you know that these Middle Eastern women are “new money”? Chances are some of that money is older than the United States. You’ve already assumed that they’re “new money” just because they’re not white.

    The fact that other people get criticized for being label whores is completely incidental to people who tag people with that epithet as a RESULT of their ethnicity. That is racism. It’s also elementary. By your reasoning, there is no such thing as racism, period, since things that can happen as a result of racism, being the target of violence, sexual harrassment, or losing your job, happen to everyone!

    Let’s look at an example: Person A says “All white girls are sluts!” Using your reasoning, since everyone gets called a slut sometime, the above statement is not horribly racist. Hey, sometimes guys get called sluts, so it’s not mysogyny either.

    You’re defending racist acts as not racist using faulty reasoning because you don’t want to accept that generalizing about people is racist.

    I hope you realize that Carmen has exhibited Christlike patience with you and your insistence on generalizing about her folk. I would not be so kind.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 1:14 am ¶

28. Torontonian wrote:

    To G.K. -

    Oh wait, Cynthia compared HK Girls versus white girls, so maybe the demographics were very different at prep schools when she was in high school. I went to public school, but even the kids I see in prep schools are quite racially diverse. But I don’t know how old she is.

    Either way, you should not generalize her opinions and conclude something about her location (Toronto).

    Of course there are racial issues here in Toronto and Canada, but they are much more subtle and insidious than the blatant ones in the U.S. Racialicious is pretty good at analyzing at this level.

    For the record, I agree that those Jezebel commenters suggested that Saudi-ness was a cause of materialism. It’s right there in black and white.

    To CVK -

    When Cynthia said, “When I was in high school, the HK Chinese girls were the biggest label/looks whores in the world (still are!)”, I think she was talking about when she was in high school, and where she was in high school. It’s still a generalization, but she wasn’t saying all HK Chinese girls.

    It may also be a local grammar thing. When people talk and saying something like, “When I was in high school … ” in casual conversation, they usually mean when they were at high school, at their high school. It’s not very good grammar and could still be misinterpreted, but when I first read it, I understood it to mean when she was in high school, at her high school.

    I totally know what she’s taking about with the HK Chinese girls and the labels/looks, as it is (or was) a stereotype here. However, even what she said would still be a generalization of the HK Chinese girls at her high school, when she was in high school. The HK Chinese girls who were like that tended to be recent immigrants, affluent, with whatever personality factors thrown in there as well. They stood out even more because they had funny HK labels that I had never heard of.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 1:26 am ¶

29. Anonymous wrote:

    Jezebel has a HISTORY of these kinds of terrible racist remarks. Didn’t Racialicious post a critique on one of their articles about how Asian women are better than other kinds of women? A recent winner was also another generalization in the title “Indian Men: Not So Welcoming To Women These Days.” I didn’t even want to read the post after that…but I think they either need more Racialicious in their lives or should just stick to staple topics for celebrity gossip blogs: clothing, weight, and celebrity babies.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 7:30 am ¶

30. VAR wrote:

    NEW RICH!!!
    Ah- love this post, reminds me of the lyrics from the New Rich song-

    new rich!
    Whose gonna be first?
    new rich!
    Whose gonna be last?
    new rich!
    Whose gonna be happy?
    After all we need is more…

    culte du cargo

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 8:20 am ¶

31. Mickey wrote:

    The comments on this are great. I too do not have any Muslims friends, but to say that Muslim women are label whores is a little much. Thanks to $100.00 barrel oil, the Russian economy has never been better (since the fall of Communism). Russian woman now have access to Louis Vuitton, Versace and D&G? Are Russian woman label whores too?

    I love designer handbags myself (I have started with a Burberry and working my up) and I would hate to think someone would make rash assumptions about me, simply because the honey is generous around b-day time!

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 8:43 am ¶

32. Sewere wrote:

    This isn’t a pile on but Cynthia re-read this sentence

    It seems that many ethnic/race-based sites turn everything into a racial issue when it comes to privilege like this. It’s not.

    Now please tell us how a person like you who is not at the receiving end of institutional racism, is better able to tell those of us who are just how to talk about race and racism?

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 9:39 am ¶

33. Thea wrote:

    Just to jump on the the convo about race relations in the US vs race relations in Canada - I would say race matters in Canada as much as it does in the US, though it plays itself out differently. Toronto is one of the most diverse cities in the world, and there are actually more people of colour in Toronto than there are white folks. Toronto is heavily segregated in some ways though (for eg most of the black folk live in the north of the city) which can make it seem as if there are more white folks than folks of colour, depending where you are.

    Canada has a reputation of being more progressive than the US - in some ways we have better social policies (according to me) but in other ways we are definitely behind. I think race is less of a war in Canada because people are less willing to accept that it’s an issue. So while it seems more peaceful on the race front, it’s really because I guess we’re just more repressed about it.

    If you met a Canadian who thought race didn’t matter, it wouldn’t be because race doesn’t matter in Canada, it would be because they were choosing to believe it doesn’t matter. Just as I’m sure there are lots of folks in the US who choose to believe race doesn’t matter. I don’t think there are too many countries in the world where race doesn’t play a huge part in divisions of power.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 11:48 am ¶

34. tasha wrote:

    Sewere, I cannot speak for Cynthia, but the statement you decided to highlight doesn’t purport to tell you or anyone how to think or speak on the subject of racism. It’s merely an observation; one that probably harkens back to that Tila Tequila post, where someone suggested that it was racist for Cynthia to allege that Tila and Britney Spears could benefit from a stint at a European finishing school so they could learn how to get in and out of cars without exposing their crotches.

    DNA, I suspect (though I could be wrong) that Cynthia’s generalizations about HK Chinese are self deprecating and that she is a Canadian born citizen of HK Chinese descent, albeit, one that denies being a label whore. So “they” (HK Chinese) may not only be “Carmen’s people,” but Cynthia’s people as well. Now that doesn’t necessarily make it right, but it would explain why she generalizes about HK Chinese, in particular, with such ease. You wouldn’t be so bold as to tell me that you, yourself never generalize about people of your own ethnicity, nor do you condone others generalizing about people of their own ethnicity, would you? Oh ye who waxed poetic about fried chicken up-thread and probably has both seasons of “Chappell’s Show” on dvd, and maybe even a Chris Rock special or two.

    I can see where Fatemeh’s criticism of the Jezebel piece is coming from, in terms of some Saudi women’s consumerism being linked with their being Saudi, but people of color aren’t the only ones tagged with this stereotype. For example, newly moneyed Russian nationals and immigrants in the UK, many of which are also referred to as label whores with copious tastes that spend money like water. Their spending has had such an impact on the British economy that London is nicknamed “Moscow on the Themes.”

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 3:11 pm ¶

35. dnA wrote:

    This is why Dave Chappelle quit, because no one was getting his freaking jokes.

    The point of that joke is that EVERYONE loves chicken, and it’s only the racist stereotype of black people eating chicken that makes people think black people have some thing about eating chicken.

    In other words, the joke was deconstructing the generalization, not reinforcing it.

    Also, Please explain to me the logic behind assuming that someone who generalizes, in all seriousness, must therefore be a member of the race whom they are generalizing about. I guess Pat Buchanan must be black, Latino, gay, and Jewish.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 4:46 pm ¶

36. Globalistgirl wrote:

    Tasha and Mickey reminded me of all the complaining about the Russian noveau riche I’ve heard since the Wall fell. I can see the dislike and discomfort in many Finns’ faces (including family members) on the ferries between Helsinki and Stockholm when they hear the loud Russians. That dynamic is another example of people disliking the noveau riche that fairly obviously has nothing to do with race. (I’m not saying it never does, just that you can’t automatically assume that because Saudis aren’t “white”, criticism of their materialistic consumption is racist. You also have to show that Saudis are judged more harshly for it than some reference group somewhere. Maybe they are, but no one’s gotten to that bit yet.)

    Russians are white and so are Finns (and Estonians and everyone else unlucky enough to share a border (or nearly so) with Russia.) There is old animosity because Russia has serious imperialist tendencies. When rich Russians start showing up, being loud, wearing expensive watches that regular Finns and Swedes on the ferries never could afford, dislike flares easily. Neither race nor ethnicity (I’m not even sure whether there’s supposed to be an ethnicity difference there) has anything to do with that dislike of Russian noveau riche.

    You could propose a mechanism along similar lines to explain any particularly virulent condemnation of people from non-industrialized countries. Frankly, I think there are more than a few middle-class people in industrialized countries who feel pretty put in their place when the ultrarich from anywhere that isn’t the West show up wearing Bvlgari, Prada and Rolex. It’s related to race, and may be expressed (or thought) in racist language, but you can’t separate the racism from the international relations and from how they think the natural order among countries is. Personally, that sounds like a more comprehensive explanation to why Westerners might have especially negative attitudes about non-Western noveau riche. It includes imperialist race dynamics, but the same model can be used both within a “race” as well between “races.”

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 6:27 pm ¶

37. tasha wrote:

    Fall back, DNA. I got the chicken joke. Anyway, my Cynthia assumption is just a hunch. You know, like the one about you having the “Chappelle Show” DVD box sets that I was right about? Like I said, I could be wrong, but I’m not basing my assertion about her descent on her generalizations alone. The anecdotal evidence to support my assumption is in plain sight. My first suspicion that Cynthia was a person of color arose, in the first paragraph, as she referred to white people in the third person and not in the first or second.

    Cynthia writes:
    “The white girls at that time wore GAP and Roots (Canadian-based store known for sweatshirts and leather goods (and other camp/cottage stuff…and their stuff ain’t cheap)….outfitted the Canadian, US and British Olympic teams for years.. http://www.roots.com)”

    I then suspected that Cynthia was not only a person of color but of Chinese descent in the second paragraph, when she wrote:

    “My cousin was accepted into a business program at a smaller, lesser-known university that is down the road from a “better known” (to the Chinese community here) university.”

    Yes, Cynthia could be completely white or black or whatever and have a Chinese cousin, but I think that the reason why she expresses concern over what her neighborhood Chinese community thinks about such matters is because she herself is of Chinese descent, HK Chinese descent to be specific, because I remember her alluding to her mother’s HK Catholic school in a prior post. The reason why I think Cynthia was born or reared mostly in the West is because of the tone and structure of her generalizations. She makes a distinction between them (HK girls who may be immigrants) and herself, as if she’s more assimilated Canuck than they are. I hope Cynthia hasn’t been frightened off, because I would love for her to confirm or deny my theory.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 7:35 pm ¶

38. Torontonian wrote:

    dnA -

    I am a Canadian-born citizen of HK Chinese descent, and I also suspected/assumed that Cynthia is of HK Chinese descent. This is because even her complaint about HK Chinese girls is something that Canadian-born HK-Chinese-descent people typically complain about, calling them “FOBs”, dressing that way is “dressing like a FOB,” etc. It would be unusual for a white person to complain about “HK Chinese” girls, as white people don’t normally make a distinction between HK Chinese and mainland Chinese.

    She also has inside knowledge about what the Chinese community here in Toronto considers the brand-name university (Waterloo) and what is looked down upon (Wilfrid Laurier). At least from my experience, white people usually wouldn’t know about the extent to which the Chinese community here values Waterloo over Wilfrid Laurier, or even that they do.

    If she is actually non-Chinese, I would be impressed.

    Oh wait, even in her first comment here in this thread, she implied that her cousin was advised against going to the lesser-known university by members of the Chinese community here. Considering that most Chinese people in Toronto were of HK descent a decade ago, not only is she probably Chinese, but she is probably also HK Chinese.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 7:53 pm ¶

39. Cynthia C wrote:

    To answer people’s question: Yes, I’m a Canadian (Torontonian to be exact) of Hong Kong Chinese descent.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 9:52 pm ¶

40. Torontonian wrote:

    Hey, Cynthia, you were talking about Waterloo versus Wilfrid Laurier, right? I just want to do a reality check, to make sure I’m not projecting my personal experiences with Chinese parents being obsessed with Waterloo on to the “Chinese community” in general.

    As the Chinese “community” is actually just a demographic cross-section instead of a real connected community, I wonder where these ideas about university brands come from, how they spread, why it is relatively consistent, etc. Even many South Asian Torontonians seem to worship Waterloo in the same way. (Assuming that it *is* Waterloo we’re talking about, and I’m not projecting…)

    Anyway, there are many good universities here besides Waterloo.

    Posted 17 Jan 2008 at 11:46 pm ¶

41. donna darko wrote:

    Jezebel has a HISTORY of these kinds of terrible racist remarks.

    Jezebel has a history of making sexist remarks too.

    Posted 18 Jan 2008 at 12:54 am ¶

42. nuvowricci wrote:

    dnA: A bridge to understanding built with irony using fewer arches proves less distracting to travelers, no?

    Fatemeh: “I think that an obsession with luxury goods is a stereotype or symptom of upper classes in many cultures….Any time one makes a comment that generalizes about a particular [group], s/he falls into stereotype country.”

    I ain’t interested in playing gotcha, but I want to visit a new country. All this pseudo-class warfare bias BS bile ignores one simple thing: people can and do want things of luxury and leisure, regardless of class and station, and aspire to more. It’s fine to have a philosophy of “contentment”, “utility”, “need” whatever– but this logic of generalization that assigns virtues to the “the poor” and evils the “upper class” simply for being what they are is just as flawed as anything. The reverse would also be equally true…

    Posted 18 Jan 2008 at 5:52 am ¶

43. Cynthia C wrote:

    Torontonian: Yes, it’s Waterloo vs Laurier. But it’s also U of T (University of Toronto, for those outside of Canada) vs York and U of T vs Ryerson. Though York has more acceptance than Ryerson (I have family who don’t think Ryerson is a “real” university)

    I guess the reputation comes from word of mouth, at least with a school like Waterloo, since it isn’t an “old” school like U of T or Western. Also, since many immigrant Asian parents seem to push their Canadian raised kids into math/science/technology-related fields, Waterloo WILL be a school of choice(of course, Queen’s and U of T are too.) Word then gets back to the old country, so when people come here, they might think “Mrs. Wong’s kid graduated from Waterloo and now has a good job at suchandsuchaplace. My kid should go to Waterloo, graduate and get a good job like Mrs. Wong’s kid.”

    The University of Ontario Institute of Technology probably isn’t even in the radar yet, since the school has only been around for 5 years!

    I also think the Chinese communities around here feel anything east of McGill is not good enough. In my high school class, Dalhousie, Acadia, etc were found on the top 3 list of non-Ontario schools for the white students, but maybe on two or three Chinese students. This was 10 years ago, so things might have changed. It’s all about branding.

    Posted 18 Jan 2008 at 7:25 am ¶

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