The Veil Does Not a Prison Make

by Racialicious special correspondent Fatemeh Fakhraie, originally published at Muslimah Media Watch

Who’s Danielle Crittenden? She writes a blog for The Huffington Post and recently, she decided to “take on the veil” as a social experiment for one week of her life in Washington, D.C. She went straight for the gold and decided to wear the starkest, blackest niqab out there, ignoring the fact that the hejab is far more prevalent among Muslim women than the niqab. She blogs about her experience in four separate posts under the title, “Islamic Like Me.”

Readers, you know my issue with people who use “Muslim” and “Islamic” synonymously. For god’s sake, would somebody check the Associated Press guidelines?! “Islamic” describes architecture and history…things. A “Muslim” is an adherent of Islam; Muslims are people, not things.

So Ms. Crittenden decides to put on a niqab…for what? For giggles? She never really explains her reasons for doing so, but makes it very apparent that wearing a niqab is a bad idea because it’s “oppressive”. Does she want to see what it’s like to be a Muslim woman who wears niqab? Does she want to understand the prejudice that these women face?

No. After reading her posts, it’s obvious she just wants to play dress-up. She doesn’t attempt to adhere to any principles of Islam while wearing the niqab, nor does she take it off in her home like most niqabis would, nor does she even attempt to start a dialogue with any Muslim women—niqabis or not.

This experiment reminds me of one of Tyra Banks’ experiments: you remember when she put on a fat suit? Yeah. That one. She put on a fat suit under the guise of “seeing how the other half lives” but really just used it as a self-indulgent exercise in vanity (kind of like everything else Tyra does, bless her heart). This one seems really no different.

So, we read the first paragraph of Ms. Crittenden’s post “Islamic Like Me: Taking On The Veil”, and already, I want to throw my computer out the window.

“‘I wonder what it’s like to wear Arabic dress?’ I said one day to my husband. His eyes sparked with interest. ‘You mean as in I Dream of Jeannie?’ ‘No. I mean those black cover-ups they wear in Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries.’”

(Long sigh). So, we begin with the blatantly incorrect idea that all women in the Middle East wear “Arabic” clothing, even if they are not Arab or Muslim. We see later in her posts that her idea of “Arabic clothing” is a niqab and abaya—ignoring several other traditional dress styles that Arab women wear. And, of course, her husband throws in the sexualized Orientalist fantasy of I Dream of Jeannie. Fantastic!

The rest of her dialogue follows an alarmist mentality, complaining that American feminists don’t give a “peep of protest” against “people right here [presumably, big bad Muslims] who want to shroud women … to make us all submissive and invisible.” She ends her silly conversation with an ominous-sounding “It’s coming here too. It already is here.” What’s coming? Is Godzilla here? And the Big, Bad Muslims made him wear a burqa?!

Ms. Crittenden then makes a paltry connection between the rise of the Muslim population and the subjugation of women: “Accepting veiling implies acceptance of a larger ideology of female subordination.” No, Ms. Crittenden. Accepting your arguments, however, implies acceptance of a total lack of logic. Why can’t she get past the idea that wearing some extra cloth totally disenfranchises someone?

“In the free and equal societies of North America and Europe, we are hearing of more and more cases of forced marriage, confinement of women to their homes, honour killings and female genital mutilation.”

Free and equal? Like the equal pay women get for the equal work they do? Like the freedom women have to walk alone at night? Wow…maybe I should move into Ms. Crittenden’s neighborhood.

Furthermore, she’s sensationalizing. Guess what? Stuff like this does happen…to all women. It’s just called different names. “Forced marriage”? How about forced sex or rape? “Confinement of women to their homes”? Ever heard of domestic violence, where victims often feel they cannot leave their abuser (who lives in their home)? “Honor killings”? What about kidnapping and torture by family friends or strangers? You say potato, I say potaaaaato. I guess Ms. Crittenden has never heard of Megan Williams.

From her final installment, she rants: “… what the Klan outfit represents to someone of African-American descent is exactly what the burka should represent to every free woman. Those who impose it upon women believe that a whole category of human beings can be treated as property; that this category may be beaten, sold into marriage, divorced at whim, denied education and work, raped with impunity, and stoned to death for offenses that would be pardoned in a man.”

Wow. I guess that’s how Ms. Crittenden sees Muslim men and women: rapist wife-beaters and chattel, respectively. She never stops to think about Muslim women who voluntarily take on the niqab (the majority of niqabis in the west do this as part of a more conservative interpretation of Islam). What about them, Ms. Crittenden? Since they are “imposing” the niqab on themselves, do you think that they view themselves as property, to be beaten and raped?

Ms. Crittenden’s bias against Muslims, the Middle East, and Islam itself are readily apparent throughout the entire series of posts. Whenever she refers to her niqab, she uses her Orientalism megaphone, choosing adjectives that paint the niqab as so alien that it’s not even from the same time period as we occupy: it arrived in what “looked like a package someone had shipped 400 years ago…” and doing laundry makes her feel like she lives in “a Victorian household,” making her realize that she won’t be able to live “a normal life” because of it.

She also sees fit to equate everything in her life to something related to the Middle East: her kitchen, which is being remodeled, looks like “a blown-up house in Baghdad” and she has become an “al-Jazeera version of the Black Ranger.” Wow. You know why all this is funny? Because al-Jazeera doesn’t have any female anchors who wear niqab! And because likening your remodeled home to a war zone is completely hilarious! Now she knows how Iraqi women must feel when they lose loved ones to sectarian violence or land mines!

Her sensitivity extends to her third post, “Islamic Like Me: Why Don’t You Just Take It Off?” She explains that the Iranian women’s volleyball team looked like “a squad of bandaged mummies leaping and spiking” when they competed in the Asian Senior Women’s Volleyball Championship last September.

And, just to hit home the idea that showing skin equals normality, she follows it up with some fake science by renowned charlatan James Watson (the same guy who said that Africans are less intelligent than whites) that states that women who cover up have massive Vitamin C and D deficiencies. This backs up her equally ridiculous statement, made earlier, that “A North American ‘healthy lifestyle’ and Islam do not go together very well.” Hmmmm…I wonder how the U.S.’s three million Muslims do it? Because of Ms. Crittenden’s own lack of experience with the niqab, she assumes every Muslim has a difficult time eating, exercising, or generally living life.

Ms. Crittenden’s adventures around town (going to the gym, the airport, and the grocery store) are meant to expose the bias against Muslims…I think. But she’s shocked when everyone isn’t as bigoted as she is (or at least, doesn’t actively harass her). She goes to an airport, and is surprised that the employees have undergone racial and religious sensitivity training. She’s almost offended when people on the subway don’t attack her with questions and demand to see what’s in her bag, which is what I think she was expecting. Hey, Ms. Crittenden! Maybe Americans aren’t all ignorant Islamophobes like yourself!

I’m not familiar with The Huffington Post’s readers, so I just assumed the worst when I looked at the comments. Of course, there were the out-and-out Islamophobic ones, as well as the “I’m going to make an Islamophobic/racist comment here, but I’m liberal, so I can’t be Islamophobic/racist!” I was pleasantly surprised to see that a fair share of readers actually knew their stuff when it came to Islam, and a good share of them advocated for dialogue rather than condemnation of the niqab and the way of life it implies. However, no one really said what I was thinking, so here we are.

I was really surprised to see this in The Huffington Post, which is usually a source for some nice liberal politics, and features posts from fellow Brass-Crescent-nominee Ali Eteraz. But this? Seriously?

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Veil is Not a Prison « Dr. Esam Omeish on 11 Dec 2007 at 11:38 pm

    […] is Not a Prison December 12, 2007 — Dr Esam Omeish Sister Fatemeh Fakhraie has a great article on the sensationalist ‘experiment’ done by Danielle Crittenden  After reading her […]

  2. Noli Irritare Leones » Blog Archive » Muslim Like Me on 13 Dec 2007 at 9:31 am

    […] Fatemeh at Racialicious is offended (as are some others) at Danielle Crittenden’s “Islamic Like Me” posts. So Ms. Crittenden decides to put on a niqab…for what? For giggles? She never really explains her reasons for doing so, but makes it very apparent that wearing a niqab is a bad idea because it’s “oppressive”. Does she want to see what it’s like to be a Muslim woman who wears niqab? Does she want to understand the prejudice that these women face? […]

  3. bastard.logic on 15 Dec 2007 at 12:00 pm

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    […] MOOSLIMZ!111) would likely raise the “secularist” (snicker) ire of cultural supremacists like Danielle Crittenden. However, secularism isn’t (or shouldn’t be) the antithesis of observance (nor is integration […]

Comments

  1. Orville wrote:

    I have no words, I am speechless about Danielle Crittenden’s article it is completely paternalistic, racist, sexist, and very offensive on many levels. I have heard about this Danielle Crittenden she’s a conservative writer. I think her father was a former owner of the Toronto Sun newspaper in Toronto Canada. And I think her husband is a conservative writer too his name is David Frum. I think Crittenden wrote the article to be controversial and shocking but she only demonstrates her bigotry and prejudice. I won’t say Crittenden is ignorant because she’s not she is cognizant of exactly what she is doing.

  2. Mireille wrote:

    This is so utterly vile. With the photo from the White House, I assume she probably lives around me in Northern VA which has a substantial Muslim population. If that’s true, I would expect her to encounter a covered Muslim women at least every once in a while during her normal every day activities…Does she not go to the grocery store or to the mall?
    I mean, if this weren’t simply a self indulgent experiment in Islamophobia, she would have taken on hejab which is way more common than the niqab around here and struck a genuine conversation with other women who wear them and Muslim women who don’t. She could have written a really interesting piece about body identity or the conflict between being a native born American Muslim or the culture of Muslim immigrants to the united states, but nope. She just wanted to pat herself on the back for putting on cultural drag.
    What’s more, to disregard the fleshiness of Western clothes because they empower women is a serious detriment to her argument. Sexy clothes gives us leverage and control over men’s desires, which is often the only way women are socialized into believe they can gain influence. The west is still largely patriarchal in mentality and skin is all too often an economic bargaining tool that traps women and makes them little more than objects.

    I go to school with women in both niqab and hejab, though the latter is far more common. I always got a bit of a giggle from one women on campus in particular. She wears bright red clogs and carries a rather conspicuous Coach handbag with her niqab. I’m glad her personal interpretation of Islam, though clearly rather conservative, allows for fun accessories.

  3. Mireille wrote:

    *rereading my last paragraph it might seem that I laugh at Muslim women often which is completely untrue. I have had fits of hysterical giggling WITH a group of girls, a few of whom happened to be Muslim in the back of my geology class…but that’s because we all have the worst crush on our professor. I get tickled by the women I mentioned because I think it’s rather novel that, despite what others might see as a drab and threatening exterior, she’s trying to communicate that she is sort of happy go lucky on the interior.

  4. Keiko wrote:

    Wow, I wouldn’t even know where to begin in deconstructing what’s wrong with Ms. Crittenden. Thanks so much, Fatemeh, for reacting to this in a far more eloquent way than I ever could have. She strikes me as so incredibly condescending, not only to Muslims, but also to non-Muslims, who she expects to be just as prejudiced as herself. She must have been so satisfied when pulled aside at the airport for a secondary screening.
    I hesitate to even call this an “experiment” because she seemed so hell-bent on proving her Islamophobic hypothesis that I don’t think she’d let reality stand in her way!

  5. Yolanda Carrington wrote:

    She also sees fit to equate everything in her life to something related to the Middle East: her kitchen, which is being remodeled, looks like “a blown-up house in Baghdad” and she has become an “al-Jazeera version of the Black Ranger.” Wow.

    I must be hallucinating. I didn’t just read that.

    Let’s see if I got that straight: Messy kitchen=bombed-out house. Disgusting, I tell you. Lord have mercy.

  6. pearl wrote:

    Ms. Crittenden obviously fails to recognize that there are people of all faiths that choose to follow a code of dress; many people who consider themselves to be more religious will dress accordingly.

    It’s just easier to attack a group where a certain mode of dress is more obvious to others.

  7. SolShine7 wrote:

    Oh my gosh!!! Thanks for pointing this out. She needs to read Muslim Girl Magazine or something.

    http://solshine7.blogspot.com

  8. Safiya wrote:

    Aargh! There are no words to describe my disgust. Fatemeh has summed up my feelings about this ‘experiment’ very well.

    One more thing. There are many (usually poorly written and researched) articles about Muslim practices, but never about the beliefs behind these practices. Women who wear niqab have their reasons, for doing so, and it’s not to save on Botox. Until we can get past this ‘pointing at the strange Muslims’ that seems to be all the rage, then we are no closer to seeing an end to Islamophobia.

  9. arcanu wrote:

    Trying to understand the lives of muslim women does not mean playing dress-up for a week. Understanding muslim women, like any other women, means engaging them, listening to their experiences and seeking common ground. If she wants to understand muslim women maybe she should actually speak to them or make an effort to engage the local community. Without actual engagement her “experiment” is a sham and doesn’t help interfaith understanding at all.

  10. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    > it’s not to save on Botox

    LOL!

  11. Danni wrote:

    ….she went to restaurants wearing a niqab. (I looked up the article.)

    She went to restaurants wearing a niqab?

    way to research the culture and at least mirror the practices of the people you’re trying to represent (make a mockery of), really responsible journalism, right there!

  12. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    Didn’t someone write a whole book based on this premise: spending a long time wearing a niqab or burka?

    It might be helpful to distinguish between cultures where women choose to wear a niqab and cultures where they’re forced to.

    P.S. I don’t think Jeannie was a Muslim. She was more of a WASP genie.

  13. Cara wrote:

    Totally agree with the post. But, while I hate to nit-pick, this is one of those things that I really can’t just let go:

    How about forced sex or rape?

    No need for or. A slash would have worked, because they’re the same thing. Studies show that many people think that forced sex is not rape (what they do think it is, I don’t know), and it’s highly dangerous. I hate to see it in an otherwise really great post!

  14. Paul wrote:

    While this exercise in paternalism is both stupid and pointless, the author of this post doesn’t address the real issue behind it. Women in most Muslim states are treated as de facto and de jure second-class citizens. Furthermore, her argument about women in the West being unable to walk alone at night is not germane. No Western state empowers virtue police to accost and imprison women, nor do they wink knowingly at honor killings.

  15. AJ wrote:

    this is not meant, in any way, as a defense of crittenden’s thesis or methodology in carrying out her “experiment.” i think her biases and prejudgemental attitudes, like her article, speak for themselves.

    but, since we’re throwing around charges of “irresponsible journalism,” i’d like to ask fatemah if she believes that hyperbole and disingenuous misdirection fall under the caregory of “responsible” journalism?

    the paragraph that begins with the words “Furthermore, she’s sensationalizing…” brought me up short. to say fatemah is comparing apples to oranges, in my view, doesn’t begin to cover it.

    “forced marriage” is the same as “rape?” generally speaking, a rape is an isolated incident in a woman’s life, while a forced marriage can, and often does, last many years, or even a lifetime. also, if a woman is an unwilling participant in a marriage, doesn’t that make every single episode of sex with her husband a “rape,” be definition?

    in her next point, she states her opinion that the psychological imprisonment experienced by many victims of domestic violence is the same as the physical, forced confinement to the home that many women endure in Muslim socieites. i disagree, strongly. our society allows for many avenues of escape, because we, as a society, reject the forcible confinement of women to the home. i know several women who woke up one day and said “enough is enough.” they got out of their situations, with the full weight of the state — law enforcement and the family court system — supporting them. would the same thing happen in a conservative Muslim society? i doubt it. again, there’s no comparison.

    and how does what happened to megan williams compare to the tradition of “honor killings?” in the former, a woman is a victim of a heinous, but relatively rare, crime, allegedly perpetrated by a group of racist, vicious people who barely knew her. in the latter, girls and women are ritualistically murdered by their own father or brothers because they “dishonored the family” by falling in love with the wrong boy, or for holding someone’s hand in public.

    if fatemah is trying to persuade us that women are, in fact, NOT oppressed in conservative Muslim societies, i would respectfully suggest that she avoid making shallow and specious arguments like the slew that she presented in that single paragraph.

    again, please don’t take any of my comments to mean that i am defending crittenden’s ridiculous essay.

  16. jen* wrote:

    i saw the article over at HuffPo and as i glanced at it…and then got the real gist: a white woman wearing niqab - forthefunofit?? - I immediately thought of you, Fatemeh. It wasn’t going over very well with me, and I wondered what your impression might be.

    I didn’t check the comments over there, but maybe I oughta pay a visit and drop a couple of my own two cents. It always impresses me how some people feel they can gain a minority education by placing themselves in a stereotyped version of the minority-shoes. And then just wear those shoes in their neighborhood, talking to their friends, and at the end of the week: they’re enlightened!

    wow. so easy!

  17. al wrote:

    good article.

    it reminded me of a guy i knew who wore a priest costume (it was actually a costume, from a party store) for a week and wrote about it for maximum rock and roll. can you imagine someone writing something like that for more mainstream media? no. if anything, they would just freaking go and talk to some priests. i don’t mean to conflate choosing to wear a niqab to choosing to become a priest, but there is a combination of reverence for christianity and lack of exotification that makes people not dress up like priests for a week and see how they’re treated. but it certainly is interesting, no?

  18. Brakeline wrote:

    Re Orville: D.C. is definitely married to David “axis of evil” Frum (Bush’s former speechwriter), but it’s her step-pop who was the editor of the Toronto Sun. She’s also never been a friend of “feminism” herself…

  19. luckyfatima wrote:

    ugh Paul, *SIGH* and huge eyeroll

    This Crittenden is offensive beyond words. Blegh, bile in my throat, must run to waste basket…

  20. Daomadan wrote:

    I’m disgusted.

    Can we start handing out “Stupid White Lady” buttons?

  21. MNC wrote:

    I think everyone is in agreement that Crittenden’s “dress up journalism” was an exercised in complete stupidity. That said, the issues that Paul and AJ raise I think are valid ones. It seems that AJ expanded on Paul’s post in a number of ways.

    It may be off topic from the Crittenden stupidity, but does anyone have any insight with regard to the comments made by Paul and AJ?

    By the way, all the Tyra-style dress up as a means to “truly understanding” needs to stop!

  22. MNC wrote:

    PS-(excuse the typos-I can actually read and write ;)

  23. Paul wrote:

    Dismissive eyerolls and grunts aside, no one ever really addresses why people of conscience ought not to speak out against conservative Muslim atrocities. If we allow one culture to treat women as inferiors because they were born women, then why can’t another culture treat blacks, gays, Native Americans, et al. as inferior?

  24. Melinda wrote:

    I think Fatemeh’s article is excellent, but I agree that AJ, Paul, and Cara all bring up good points. Forced sex IS rape. Honor killings ARE abhorrent. The treatment of women in “conservative Muslim countries” IS cruel and oppressive. I agree that these are problems. But Fatemeh’s point, as I see it, is to not to glamorize the Western world’s treatment of women as perfect, as Crittenden does. No, Western women’s situation is not the same, in terms of legal frameworks and political rights… BUT each has its issues and neither situation should be taken as acceptable.

  25. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Cosign with Melinda.

    BTW, there are a lot of Muslims who do speak out about these atrocities .

    I have a link round up of bloggers outside of the US running next week which includes a discussion of an op-ed from an Egyptian Muslimah who is denouncing the Saudi regime for bastardizing Islam to justify their treatment of women.

  26. Fatemeh wrote:

    First, I’d like to thank everyone for their comments! And I’d like to remind my readers that my name is spelled “Fatemeh,” with only one A.

    AJ: Personally, I think hyperbole is a great way to convey how ridiculous and off her arguments really are. And I always get suspicious when someone non-Muslim has “Muslim women’s interests at heart;” if you remember, “liberating Afghan women” was a major reason for going to war in Afghanistan…and how much more free are these women? How many Westerners care about these women now?
    Secondly, rape is not always an isolated incident: marital rape can occur several times, as can non-marital rape (a woman can either be repeatedly raped over a series of days, months, or years by one or several people). So I disagree that forced marriage never has parallels to rape.
    Although our society does have shelters and programs to help victims of domestic violence, they are unable to help until these women help themselves by leaving their situations. And not every domestic violence victim just “wakes up one day” and has had enough. Some people have to hit rock bottom, some people cannot leave their homes, either because their partners will not let them or because they are afraid their partners will not allow them back to see their children.
    And I disagree that Muslim women are “ritualistically murdered” by their own fathers or brothers. Just because a few cases are reported in the media does not make them de rigueur among Muslim communities. Honor killings are rare occurrences that are tragic, just like horrifying incidences of hate crimes, gender crimes, etc., that are rare and tragic, but not “the norm” among Western society. However, there are many feminists who would argue that violence against women IS a tradition within Western society. It just depends on how you spin it.
    PAUL: Nobody “winks knowingly” when honor killings happen. That’s really offensive, to suggest that Muslim men all pat each other on the back for a job well done after murdering one’s child. Also, only two predominately Muslim states (Saudi Arabia and Iran) have official morality police.
    Also, I don’t think that the point of Ms. Crittenden’s post was to prove that Muslim women are treated as second-class citizens in predominately-Muslim countries. I think she wrote the article to stir up hatred against Muslim men for “what they do” to Muslim women, blatantly stating that Muslim men want to shroud and imprison Muslim women.

  27. Paul wrote:

    Fatemeh,

    I find it offensive that you compare relatively minor and non-governmental discrimination to systemic discrimination. Unequal pay, the glass ceiling, and objectification must be dealt with by Americans. These issues do not hold a candle to the treatment of women and gays in majority Muslim states and to argue that they are equivalent is disingenuous.

    As to Muslims speaking out about such issues, when do any of the major American Muslim groups ever issue a statement condemning atrocities in the Muslim world? Instead, they attack the easy and morally safe targets within the US and Europe.

  28. MNC wrote:

    Thank you Fatemeh/Melinda for your comments.

    As a person who does not affiliate with organized religion, I try to make it a point to understand how a people committed to various religious faiths view the world and how those beliefs affect that person’s culture/politics.

    Thanks for keeping the lines of communication open.

  29. Katie wrote:

    Fatemeh -

    What a great post! Thanks for exposing this kind of shoddy, racist journalism for what it is.

  30. AJ wrote:

    fatemeh –

    first, apologies for misspelling your name.

    second, i’m sorry, but i just don’t follow you.

    you seem to be saying that you purposely engaged in hyperbole in order to show up how weak crittenden’s arguments are. if that’s what you meant, i have to say that i just don’t see it.

    her main point — as artlessly presented as it was — is that the wearing of the veil is a physical and visual manifestation of the systematic subjugation of women, in almost every sphere of life (outside of the kitchen); that it’s use comes from the same worldview that holds that women can’t be trusted to drive, much less vote; that, in the eyes of the law, a woman is worth 50% of what a man is worth; etc. etc. etc.

    whereas, if i’m reading you correctly, your main argument is that crittenden is a racist who doesn’t know what she’s talking about, that things are really not so bad for Muslim women and that, besides, it sucks to be a woman in the Western world, too.

    i find your argument to be quite a stretch, to put it mildly.

    by the way, i did not say that a forced marriage never has parallels to rape; what i said was that one is usually an isolated incident, whereas a woman who is an unwilling participant in a forced marriage is being raped again and again, over a period of years or decades. the difference seems obvious, to me.

    also, you completely ignored my point about women being confined to their home due to societal pressure. if a victim of domestic abuse in western society feels trapped, it’s usually because of the manipulation and emotional abuse heaped upon her by one person: her husband. in conservative Muslim societies, it is the SOCIETY AT LARGE that is making her a prisoner in her home. how can you, in good conscience, equate the two situations? it is, to me, a question of two diametrically opposed world-views. one the one hand, a society that says “this is your lot in life as a woman, because it is as God commands;” on the other hand, a society that says “you want out? just call us; the police and court system will move to help you.” can you really not see the difference?

    lastly, your point about “honor killings” being rare is less than honest, i think. a half hour or so on Google will bring up study and study that numbers these vicious crimes in the thousands, every year. and, yes, there is a certain amount of, as paul said, “winking” going on about it. some of these incidents are even videotaped and proudly broadcast to the world on the internet.

    i’ve now re-read crittenden’s article, and your orginal post here, as well as the comments and your response to some of those comments. i almost hate to say it, but it seems to me that her argument carries more weight; women ARE subjugated in much of the Middle East, and it is more prevalent in those societies that are more fundamentally religious. that’s the simple truth of it.

    whereas i find your logic to be somewhat tortured: i don’t agree for one second that the incidence of rape in the western world is just as bad as the tradition of forced marriage, or that the lack of equal pay for equal work in the western world is just as bad as the traditions of honor killings and genital mutilation.

    seems to me that your use of hyperbole does, indeed, convey how ridiculous the arguments are; but i think it’s your own arguments that really sound ridiculous.

    just my two cents.

  31. Cara wrote:

    As to Muslims speaking out about such issues, when do any of the major American Muslim groups ever issue a statement condemning atrocities in the Muslim world? Instead, they attack the easy and morally safe targets within the US and Europe.

    I don’t know, Paul. Why are you attacking easy and morally safe targets like Muslim culture instead of “issuing a statement” condemning atrocities in America/by Americans? (Like, you know, torture. Or letting black people die on their roofs because it’s too much trouble rescuing them? Or rape perpetrated by U.S. soldiers?) Is it maybe because, uh, you don’t automatically assume that you have to apologize for everything that every American does? Maybe because you have the basic understanding that everything your government does doesn’t necessarily reflect you? Or just because attacking other people is more fun? The side question, of course, would be whether or not you issue a statement every time a man does something stupid or hateful. That’d make you awful busy, wouldn’t it?

    Hmm. Questions, questions.

  32. Yolanda Carrington wrote:

    I find it offensive that you compare relatively minor and non-governmental discrimination to systemic discrimination. Unequal pay, the glass ceiling, and objectification must be dealt with by Americans. These issues do not hold a candle to the treatment of women and gays in majority Muslim states and to argue that they are equivalent is disingenuous.

    Paul—if you’re gonna challenge Fatemeh please get your facts straight first. The oppression that women and LGBT folks face in Western society is NOT minor. And it damn sure isn’t non-governmental—remember that same-sex marriage is illegal in the US and nearly a dozen states have constitutional amendments against it. The armed forces are actively homophobic and sexist—right down to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

    People are raped and killed everyday in the US because they are female, transgender, or gay and lesbian. Transgender folk face official and non-official obstacles that you and I couldn’t even imagine (like finding a safe public rest room, for example). Governmental authorities like police, prison officials, and military officers are as likely to be perpetrators of gendered violence as the average guy on the street.

    The so-called Western system of gender isn’t better or safer, just different.

  33. Callisto wrote:

    Since it seems that the posters commenting on forced marriage, honor killings, and other stated atrocities in the Middle East do not appear to have any information beyond the “War on Terror” rhetoric that floods popular news media, it might be best for them to just drop it. Arguing with vagueness doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Advocates for Muslim women who are not Muslim women and have not spoken extensively with a variety of Muslim women (remember: the most populous majority-Muslim nation in the world is Indonesia) are really patting their own egos rather than creating any good. As Fatemeh said in her reply post, one of the reasons we went to war in Afghanistan was for “the women” and no one cares about them now. Then it was Iraqi women, and now Iranian women who we display as victims of their own cultures which we seek to abolish in the name of “democracy.”
    Sure, rape is exactly the same as forced marriage, but to exalt the United States as some humane, equal society in order to demonize the Middle East is foolish. The trope of, “Be appreciative of what you do have (rape, murder, institutionalized inequality, among others) because you could be in the Middle East!” is just a tactic used to pacify those who have their eyes open and reproduce paternalistic attitudes towards those poor, “Third World” brown women.

  34. Fatemeh wrote:

    AJ: You say her point “is that the wearing of the veil is a physical and visual manifestation of the systematic subjugation of women, in almost every sphere of life (outside of the kitchen); that it’s use comes from the same worldview that holds that women can’t be trusted to drive, much less vote; that, in the eyes of the law, a woman is worth 50% of what a man is worth.”

    This point is simply incorrect. Most of the women who wear niqab in the west do so of their own free will. Most of the women in the ME who wear niqab do so of their own free will (mostly in Egypt) or because of tradition (the gulf). Saudi Arabia is the only country that does not permit women to drive; thus, wearing the niqab can’t be a sign of women’s inability to drive in countries like Kuwait and Egypt.

    My main argument was that Crittenden is an Islamophobe AND a racist. Women have it badly everywhere in the world. This is my belief. As a woman who lives in the U.S., I know how things are here. As a woman with family and friends in the Middle East, I think I get a pretty decent picture of how things are there. Guess what? It sucks for all of us at different levels.

    Also, I find it difficult to believe that you’re fully informed about the lives of Muslim women in the Middle East because of your assertion that they are confined to their homes because of what society thinks is a mandate by God. It’s incorrect to believe that every woman in every country in the Middle East cannot leave her home without her husband’s permission. Women have jobs, their own cars, their own companies, even. Even if they are housewives, they go to the markets and grocery stores, they go to pick their children up from school, they go to concerts and plays. The Middle East is a lot bigger than Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. Why do you insist on believing that the Middle East of today is the same one of two thousand years ago?

  35. Fatemeh wrote:

    And Callisto: bless your heart.

  36. Wendi Muse wrote:

    great piece, fatemeh. i really enjoyed this one because it’s something we constantly discussed during a class i took on women and islam back in the day. this issue seems to be pretty heated in the US because any covering of the female flesh is seen as the most high level oppression…yet what of those who wear it by choice? it could be seen as liberating in some ways, a freedom from constantly being judged by the size of one’s breasts, butt, thighs, legs, or even one’s face, in the case of the burqah or the niqab. it’s funny how we can sit there and say oh man, poor muslimah who are forced to wear these full length dresses and veils and not turn on mtv or bet or telemundo and realize that 90% naked women + 150% covered men is nothing close to equality.

  37. Paul wrote:

    So the treatment of LBGT people in the Western and conservative Muslim states is essentially the same? Let us doa simple survey to see if this is true. We’ll look for LBGT organizations and openly LBGT people in the major cities of each culture. I suspect that we’ll find a lot more of both in New York, London, and Paris as opposed to Tehran, Cairo, and Riyadh.

    As to people being allowed to mainatin their own cultures, let’s agree that that’s alright. That means no more complaints about cross burnings, nooses, apartheid, pograms, neo-Nazism, etc..

    I also suppose the abolitionists were only in it to further the oppression of slaves. (Something for which the US has apologized, but most Muslim states have not, by the by).

  38. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    I think there are a lot of assumptions being made, particularly about what the hijab and niqab represent to the women who wear these items.

    Here are two selections from Colonize This, that address some of the assumptions Crittenden (and some of our commenters) have made:

    ****

    The burkha is a black, amorphous cover, leaving only the eyes visible. It drives most Western women crazy. For some reason, they always ask me how I feel about it, even though I am not Muslim. I suppose to them I look close enough.

    Today, I sit in a cafe with two Western women who are disturbed by the burkha. I explain to them that it is a tool of oppression in some countries and in others, some women choose to wear it. They shudder at this thought as they sip their lattes. One is encased in makeup and wears a tight shirt with capri pants. Another wears a midriff shirt and jeans with her hair flowing over her neck and around her face.

    I explain that many women in the world use the burkha as a symbol of power, as a statement of their value system. Women who wear the burkha refuse to be judged by their body or face. They want to be seen as another being, not a sexual object. In this way, the burkha can be a tool of empowerment.

    The women across from me listen with blank faces and confused stares. They argue it is their right as women to wear what they want and how they wish to wear it. I agree and feel that this is precisely my point. I realize that these women in front of me are oppressed in many ways by society’s perception of what a beautiful woman is. They respond to the abundant images of barely clad women with “perfect” bodies and fine-tuned makeup. They sit before me as conformists to their own cultural values. They sport the latest fashions and revel in their sun-soaked glows.

    I pity them; their oppression is so subtle they cannot even recognize it.

    —from “Ladies Only” by Tanmeet Sethi

  39. AJ wrote:

    wow.

    i can’t remember the last time i was condescended to so blatantly.

    let me state my thesis again, as plainly as i can, so that you won’t feel compelled to accuse me again of being “vague:”

    it is, in my opinion, an indusputable fact that the prevailing world-view in conservative Muslim societies holds that a woman’s life holds much less worth than that of a man’s — less, even, than the perceived “honor” of a man.

    i’ve come to this conclusion based on a number of facts (and that’s what they are, callisto: facts, not “War on Terror” rhetoric):

    the persistence of the tradition of honor killings

    the denial of women of their right to vote (or even to operate a motor vehicle!)

    the prevalence of forced marriage, etc., etc.

    this world-view, this unswerving belief that woman are inferior to men, is even codified in the legal system of many of these societies; for example, women seeking a divorce must face many, many obstalces and legal requirements, whereas men face no such difficulties. another example? how about the lenient sentences handed down to thos econvicted of “honor killings” (in the very rare instances where they are even prosecuted).

    it’s not a great leap, for me, to also conclude that the naqib is another manifestation of this world-view.

    neither callisto nor fatemeh address these facts; instead, they both adopt the tactics of obfuscation and misdirection.

    (i mean, we invaded Iraq to help the women there? what the hell? there were many absurd “justifications” for that invasion, but i don’t remember one policy-maker or pundit putting forth that particular argument. so, thanks callisto, for serving up that red herring, it looks very tasty.)

    callisto’s response to me is of the same cloth as fatemeh’s response to crittenden’s article: don’t argue the merit of the words that have been said; instead, just attack the words that you put in your opponent’s mouth.

    if you have a strong, valid argument, it seems to me that you wouldn’t have to resort to these tactics.

    oh, and, one final word to callisto — i find it very irritating that you accuse me of “exalting” the USA “in order to demonize the middle east.” i have been consistent and very clear throughout this entire discussion — i’m talking about conservative Muslim societies, not Islam as a whole. hurling false accusations like the above is just another way to make your argument appear weak.

  40. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Second selection:

    ****

    American feminists, like the rest of the nation and the Western world, had accepted the flawed image of the Middle East and Middle Eastern women without question.

    “Of course they [meek and silent Arab women] are oppressed; we [liberated, assertive Western women with voices] must help them.” I have heard similar statements (with notions in brackets implied) from white American feminists who wanted to save their Arab sisters but not to understand them. They wanted to save them from the burden of their families and religion but not from the war, hunger, unemployment, political persecution and oppression that marked their daily loves and that left them with only their families and religion as sole sources of comfort, The tone of white Western feminism - with its books about “lifting the veil on Arab women” and “lifting the veil of silence” - was that Arab feminism was nothing greater than an amusing oxymoron.

    The apparent hypocrisy and condescension that white Western feminists held for Arab women confused me. I felt betrayed by a movement that claimed to create a global sisterhood of women; it seemed that the Arab woman was the poor and downtrodden step-sister in this family.

    Where was my feminism?

    —”It’s Not an Oxymoron,” by Susan Muaddi Darraj

  41. AJ wrote:

    i’ve re-read crittenden’s article yet again, and i feel that i have to retract something that i said towards the end of my last post:

    i was wrong to accuse fatemeh of putting words in crittenden’s mouth. while i agree with crittenden’s central point, i think it’s undeniable that she engages in crude racial stereotyping and caricature. fatemeh pointed to several specific instances of this.

    i still stand by my argument, though.

    if fatemeh or callisto can point to specific instances where i, likewise, engaged in stereotyping, or paternalism, or of “patting my own ego,” i’d appreciate it if either one of you would do so.

    if you can do so, i’ll be happy to apologize.

  42. luckyfatima wrote:

    gosh Fatemeh, you are trying to write about one thing; how a white Christian conservative American woman who has no connection to Islam or Muslims has conducted this sensational and racist experiment. You deconstruct it and point out how fallacious this act of pseudo-journalism was.

    Then in the comments section, you once again have to jump to the defense of Islam and answer for Iran and Saudi Arabia, honor killings, FGM, burqas, and all the rest. Because some people (Paul) are not willing to examine what you actually wrote in terms of subject matter and are demanding that you answer for all social ills associated with Muslim societies. Or at least do that to satisfy their agenda before you ever get a chance to talk about anything else under the sun. Get with it Fatemeh! Cuz, um, like, you know that is your job as a Muslim, to answer about all the bad stuff, especially related to the punching bag of the globe, eeevillle Saudi Arabia, which you automatically must know everything about. Or Iran, and you gotta know more than just your own experience as an Iranian American, you gotta be able to criticize the Iranian theocratic personal and family law as it relates to women. Oh, and you gotta apologize for any other bad thing Muslims do, from Indonesia to Morocco. You are not allowed to discuss anything else. You can’t write an anti-racist article deconstructing an offensive and racist experiment. Nope. Not you. You should stick to answering for Islam. Get it? Stop trying to talk about anything else. And don’t dare to write a subject that has nothing to do with Islam. It isn’t your place, seeing as how you are a Muslim and all.

    Sarcasm aside, there are a HUGE amount of Muslim voices out there. For example, one forum to look into would be blogs. and if any haterz want to see some grassroots, real Muslim produced writings and posts from around the world, many of which contain posts that DO address and criticize some of the issues which you seem so desparately concerned about (I know you so want to save us Muslims, and all) it is on YOU to just sit back and read and listen to someone else. The voices are out there. They are not mainstream in the US or the broader West because minority voices generally aren’t, and because of the very strong vehicles of anti-Muslim and Orientalist propoganda. But they are there, perhaps a google search away for you.

  43. Sewere wrote:

    God, it’s like the Imus attack all over again. if y’all would just take the time to read her posts here and on her blog but no every post by a muslimah has to be draped in chest thumping pro-American “I hate the terrorists too” to be valid. There’s valid criticism and then there’s racist attack cloaked in warm fuzzy save the women criticism. Is it that hard to tell the difference?

    Mad props to you Fatemeh.

  44. Jaye wrote:

    I do get the point about the atrocities Muslim women suffer not being DIRECTLY comparable to the U.S., let’s face it, in general, they do have it a lot worse…
    But I think Crittenden’s “journalism” was using feminism as a cover for racism, rather than truly empathizing with Muslim women, she just wanted to attack their culture, not really help them deal with difficult circumstances.
    I loved Russell’s Simmons quote when he was on Anderson Cooper, and Anderson talked about rap music’s misogyny, and Russell said, “Oh, so NOW you recognize sexism.” Basically meaning, where have you been all this time, where have you been for all the sexism perpetrated by white corporations, government, religion, laws, media…but now that men from another culture are sexist, you’re suddenly the world’s biggest feminist. Racism disguised as feminism.

    The other point I want to make is that for the majority of Middle Eastern women, they’re biggest problem isn’t sexism, it’s poverty. Their husbands or fathers or sons can’t find jobs, or if they do have jobs it’s not enough to live decently. Or they live in a warzone (Iraq), or they live under an oppressive government after their democratically elected one was brought down by covert Western forces because they didn’t get a big enough cut of the oil revenues (Iran), or they are still suffering from the remnants of colonialism (take your pick). If we looked at the issue of poverty, and how it affected women, men and children daily and horrifically much more than sexism in most cases, then we would have to look at the West and its responsibility historically, and to the present day, as well as the current autocracies in the Middle East (and check out how they got into power in the first place, which also connects us back to the West). Much easier to focus on the misogynistic Muslims.

  45. Ms. Four wrote:

    Yolanda said, “The oppression that women and LGBT folks face in Western society is NOT minor. ”

    I agree with this, especially in regards to LGBT folks. However, this oppression, particularly against LGBT folks, is, in a way, minor *compared* to what LGBT folks endure in places like where I live, Egypt, which is one of the more liberal of northeast Africa/Middle Eastern countries.

    It can be hard to be LGBT in the US, in some places and situations more than others. I certainly don’t mean to diminish the harassment and persecution (some) women and LGBT folks deal with regularly.

    However, you can’t even really be out in Egypt, certainly not as an Egyptian. You can get arrested, charged with crimes, etc. I’m not sure how to properly convey this but while there are sodomy and homosexuality laws on the books in the US, it is possible for an LGBT person to live a somewhat normal and comfortable life. Not so in Egypt.

    Maybe some of the wealthiest folks can get away with it, but even then it’s hard to imagine anyone here being openly out.

    I’m grasping for details here, as I have none to offer, but you just can’t compare the two. The scale is widely different.

    (I’m not talking about Islam here, but about culture and society.)

  46. nadia wrote:

    “when do any of the major American Muslim groups ever issue a statement condemning atrocities in the Muslim world? Instead, they attack the easy and morally safe targets within the US and Europe.”

    maybe because WE ARE AMERICAN and what happens in the u.s. often has more bearing on our day to day lives than what happens in countries where we don’t even live.

    “in conservative Muslim societies, it is the SOCIETY AT LARGE that is making her a prisoner in her home.”

    if you know anything about conservative muslim societies you’d know that in many cities there are tons of women-only spaces outside of the home for women to go to. there are women-only train cars and women-only days at malls, etc.

    “a society that says “you want out? just call us; the police and court system will move to help you.””

    ha!!! really? you’ve obviously never had to get a personal protection order.

  47. Ms. Four wrote:

    Fatemeh is right that most niqabis (women who cover everything but the eyes, usually in black, at least in Egypt, anyway) in Egypt choose to wear niqab. That’s the conventional wisdom here, and what Egyptian women have told me.

    But there just aren’t that many. I’m in downtown Cairo every day, and I live in Cairo, and niqabis are very few. If I’m on the women’s car on the underground, in a crowded train full of 75 women, there might be one or two niqabis. So when you talk about niqabis in the Muslim world, I would imagine very few as a percentage are in Egypt.

    However, most women here do wear hijab (a veil covering the hair and sometimes neck but not the face, for folks who don’t know). And certainly almost all Muslim women, especially younger women, wear hijab. Usually in bright colors with lovely and complicated layers.

    So, just some facts from my corner of the world as I procrastinate my work.

  48. gatamala wrote:

    Fatemeh, with your permission (& that of CvK) I want to post something you said earlier.

    Paul, I see your points. I have my own questions…but we both need to stop and listen.

    http://www.racialicious.com/2007/11/27/between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place-triple-threats-and-double-troubles-for-muslim-women/

    This “triple threat” is one we often face as Muslim women (especially if we are also women of color). We always seem to be battling against one (or more) of these three issues: racism (for Muslim women who are also non-white), Islamophobia, or misogyny (not just from our own Muslim communities, but also from non-Muslim communities who think they know what’s best for us).

    Being on the defensive all the time creates reactionary behavior. We always feel like we have to keep our guards up to defend our faith and our choices, and it gets tiring. Most Muslims don’t necessarily mind explaining stuff (that is, if you’re genuinely interested in understanding instead of starting an argument), but we can’t all be Encyclopedia Islamicas all the time.

    Some of this “damage control” keeps us from having dialogues within our communities. Muslim women face a lot of problems within our communities as well as outside, but we’re afraid to talk about it because it can potentially be used against us. People in our own communities this power: for example, feminists in Iran are accused of being too “Westernized” by compatriots who have no interest in changing the status quo for women. Many women who seek their fair share are given this load of crap in order to guilt them into shutting up, because Westernization is equated with undesirable qualities in the Muslim world. Or, if we try to speak out to a non-Muslim audience, we are accused of “betraying” Islam or our communities by airing out our “dirty laundry.”

    And this is a legitimate fear. We don’t want to reinforce negative ideas about Islam, Muslim men and women, or Muslims of any race. But if our own communities won’t listen to us or engage in a dialogue to raise awareness and potentially enact change (phew, a lot of buzzwords in there!), what else are we supposed to do?

    Our voices can be used against us by a non-Muslim audience as well. Muslim women feel like we can’t use the word “oppression” because we’re always trying to counteract the stereotype that we’re all oppressed. Guess what? Forcing anything on someone else is oppression: that includes less-than-equal pay and sex appeal, not just headscarves. Not every woman of every faith, nationality, or ethnicity is 100% “not oppressed”, and we often fall into that category ourselves, just like every other woman on the planet.

    The reason we can’t force ourselves to use the word “oppressed” is because we’re afraid of reinforcing those Orientalist assumptions that non-Muslims have about us. “Hijab isn’t always a choice for every Muslim woman on the planet? I KNEW it! You’re ALL oppressed!”

  49. Paul wrote:

    No one has answered my query about why many Muslims can indulge in a culture that creates a gender apartheid without being challenged. If this is acceptable, why are people here so bothered about noose incidents? The US is based on white supremacy and thus it is part and parcel of the US culture to treat blacks as second-class citizens. I bet you’d even find some blacks who would claim they enjoyed the Jim Cow treatment (JC Watts/Clarence Thomas).

  50. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Paul -

    I am seeing some huge leaps in logic here.

    Fatemeh wrote an article about a HuffPo blogger who decided to uncover the issues facing Muslim women…by taking a spinning class in a niqab. The premise is laughable and Fatemeh’s analysis is spot-on.

    However, you seem convinced that every Muslim and Muslimah that reads this blog has to answer for the whim of every person who has associated themselves with the word “Islam.” Did you see Nadia’s comment above? How does that even work?

    I may be flirting with Christianity but I am not going to answer for the crusades, Fred Phelps, or that weirdo who drives around Congress with a black truck that says “Homosexuality is a Sin!” with vaguely porn pics on it.

    Check this out:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_Muslim_countries

    48 countries are on that list.

    Of those 48, we regularly here about six: Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, UAE, and Saudi Arabia. Six out of 48.

    Are all 48 of these countries assisting in a “culture that creates a gender apartheid?” One of my homegirls is in Mali as part of her Peace Corps service. No reports of atrocities on her blog. She was pissed about having to adhere to a stricter dress code than the US has, but no one is really forcing anything on her.

    Muslims and non-muslims alike DO condemn certain practices as un-Islamic all the time.

    Check out some of the blogs here:
    http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/

    On the real, I have yet to be on a Muslim blog and see someone say “oh, please, disregard the misogyny.” The issue in a lot of places is that a certain society’s culture gets bundled in part and parcel with a faith that is shared and practiced by millions around the globe.

  51. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    * here = hear.

  52. AJ wrote:

    Thanks, all, for your responses. I’m finding this discussion to be, for the most part, compelling and thought-provoking.

    A few points:

    Fatemeh said:
    “”Most of the women who wear niqab in the west do so of their own free will. Most of the women in the ME who wear niqab do so of their own free will (mostly in Egypt) or because of tradition (the gulf).”

    It wouldn’t be the first time a people have participated in their own oppression and, sadly, i doubt that it will be the last. I think history is filled with examples of this, throughout the centuries and in many disparate cultures. Look at all of the blue-collar workers who turned out in droves a couple of years ago to re-elect an administration whose economic policies harm them in very real ways.

    also, your point, that many women dress this way voluntarily, was echoed by Wendi Muse and Latoya Peterson. to which i can only respond: what about those women who DON’T want to wear the veil? are you saying that everyone who wears the niqab is doing so of their own free will?

    you also said:
    “Saudi Arabia is the only country that does not permit women to drive; thus, wearing the niqab can’t be a sign of women’s inability to drive in countries like Kuwait and Egypt.”

    i think you’re being overly selective in choosing points to respond to. you completely ignore what i said about the official, government stance towards the rights of women, as codified in legal systems throughout the Middle East.

    and:
    “Women have it badly everywhere in the world. This is my belief… Guess what? It sucks for all of us at different levels.”

    yes, agreed. “at different levels.” but that’s not what you said in your post. you tried to draw a direct comparison, with no mention of the (widely) varying degrees of oppression.

    and:
    “It’s incorrect to believe that every woman in every country in the Middle East cannot leave her home without her husband’s permission.”

    Never said that. Again, please read my comments. I’m talking about the more conservative, fundamentalist versions of Islam prevalent in the rural and poor areas, not the (relatively) liberal and cosmopolitan environs of cities like Cairo and Beirut.

    Latoya Peterson quotes Tanmeet Sethi:
    “The women across from me…argue it is their right as women to wear what they want and how they wish to wear it. I agree and feel that this is precisely my point.”

    if i understand it correctly, one of the central tenets of feminism is the belief that a woman who wants to be a CEO should not be prevented from doing so simply because she’s a woman; by the same token, a woman who chooses to be a homemaker should not be penalized for it, so long as it’s her choice.

    to exercise free will means there are options from which to choose. if you don’t have any options, you’re being oppressed. and those are the people that i’m talking about here.

    nadia said:
    “ha!!! really? you’ve obviously never had to get a personal protection order.”

    that’s true, i haven’t. but i’d be willing to bet that more orders of protection come out of the Bronx County courthouse in one week than are issued by a courthouse in, say, Damascus over the course of six months.

    again, apples and oranges.

    ms. four, a resident of cairo, mentions the “women’s car on the underground.” hmmm. “separate but equal,” anyone?

    lastly, i want to say this:

    at gatamala’s prompting, i went back and read the article by fatemeh linked to above. then i went back and read some of her other posts. it’s difficult for me to reconcile the fatemeh of those earlier writings with the one who wrote the piece at hand, because it seems as if they are two different people: one who is thoughtful and deliberate in stating her opinions, and another who goes off half-cocked and makes wild and, in my view, easily disproved assertions. i wonder if it’s possible that she was so (understandably) incensed by crittenden’s article that she abandoned her calm demeanor? maybe. i don’t know.

    which brings me to this:
    “Being on the defensive all the time creates reactionary behavior.”

    very succinctly put, and i believe there’s a lot of truth to this. because i can see it in myself, in the way i reacted when i was told, by both fatemeh and callisto, that i have no right to comment on this subject because i’m not a Muslim woman.

    so by that line of reasoning…

    if you’re an Asian woman, you have no right to participate in a discussion of police brutality directed at African-American men.

    if you’re a gay man of Hispanic descent, you have no right to an opinion about the conditions endured by Native Americans on the rez.

    apologies if i got a little heated up above. i just don’t like it when someone tells me my thoughts and feelings carry less weight because of the skin color and gender that i was born into.

    there’s a word for that kind of attitude…what was it, again?

  53. Sewere wrote:

    Can’t pull myself away,

    Paul said,

    (Something for which the US has apologized, but most Muslim states have not, by the by).

    and

    If this is acceptable, why are people here so bothered about noose incidents? The US is based on white supremacy and thus it is part and parcel of the US culture to treat blacks as second-class citizens. I bet you’d even find some blacks who would claim they enjoyed the Jim Cow treatment (JC Watts/Clarence Thomas).

    First, when did you U.S. government *officially* apologize for slavery? Every single president who mentioned how slavery or lynching was wrong only said… how slavery was wrong. Not the same as an apology.

    Second, did you read anyone say their ok with misogyny in the way it’s manifested in mulsim countries? Since you know how well women are “not so much” oppressed in this country, I wonder if you would be so kind as to point me to evidence supporting your assertion (since you were the one to make it on behalf of the actual people suffering)?

    Lastly, love your concern for all the po’ black, women and LGBT folk really, but unless all those groups got together to ask you to speak on their behalf, please don’t.

    It ain’t the first time and sadly won’t be the last that folks will pull out the Imus attack.

  54. MNC wrote:

    I found this series from TimeOut London tremendously useful:

    (thanks to bilalsblog)

    http://www.timeout.com/london/features/2976/Muslims_in_London.html

  55. Fatemeh wrote:

    AJ: I doubt your knowledge about the middle east because of the statements you make. “Persistence of the tradition of honor killings.” Honor killings are NOT a tradition; please explain why you think this. And in 90% of the Middle East, women have the right to vote AND exercise it. Please list other countries that do not enable women to vote, other than Saudi Arabia. And “Forced marriage” is not prevalent, nor is it a “tradition” like you claimed in an earlier post. I think you’re thinking of arranged marriage, which IS a tradition, but under Islam, women are allowed to have a say in who is “arranged” for them.

    And everyone else here who is defending me is correct: why do you and Paul take me to task for things that other Muslims do? The instance of paternalism I think comes from the gist of your comments, which translate to, “I know better than you, a Muslim woman who has studied the Middle East her entire life and has family there, about the Middle East and its problems. I know better than you, a Muslim woman, what problems Muslim women face.” That’s offensive because it’s taking away my voice and assuming that I, as a Muslim woman, have nothing to contribute to my culture or American culture, that you know better than I what the problems facing my community are.

    Also, Jaye is correct: Muslim women don’t give a damn about covering their hair in the larger scope of things. Poverty, healthcare, and education are larger and more important issues for them. But how would I know? I’m just a Muslim woman!

  56. Smedley wrote:

    if you know anything about conservative muslim societies you’d know that in many cities there are tons of women-only spaces outside of the home for women to go to. there are women-only train cars and women-only days at malls, etc.

    I’ve heard that, in the past in the United States, many cities had tons of blacks-only spaces where blacks could go. Blacks-only train cars and blacks-only restrooms, etc. Too bad Nadia wasn’t around to tell the black people how good they had it.

  57. AJ wrote:

    fatemeh:

    why do i think there’s a tradition of honor killing in the middle east? as i’ve stated before, plug those words into news.google.com and you’ll come up with hundreds of articles on the subject, published by sources ranging from Fox News to al-Arabiya.

    If this tradition doesn’t exist, why are women across the Middle East, from Queen Noor of Jordan to grassroots organizations in Pakistan, mobilizing and agitating against it? are they living in some kind of paranoid fantasy world?

    your point about the difference between “forced” and “arranged” marriages is well taken. a couple of things, though: i find it interesting that you, yourself, place quotes around the word “arranged.” also, i have to wonder how many girls and young women in, say, rural Egypt actually feel empowered to have a say in the arrangements that are being made for them.

    and i have to say that i’m getting a little tired of repeating this: please stop putting words in my mouth. i am not “taking you to task for things that other Muslims do.” i am disagreeing with a point that you made, as an individual, NOT as some kind of representative mouthpiece for every Muslim woman in the world. you expressly made the assertion that the oppression of women in the Middle East is comparable to that faced by women here in the west. i asked you questions and asked you to defend your assertion.

    i still find that to be an absurd statement, simply on the face of it.

    also, in re: your accusation of “paternalism:” please show me where i belittled or trivialized your opinion because it comes from the mind of a woman. if you can do that, i will apologize for my “paternalism.”

    in fact, please show me where i stated “i know” ANYthing. i’ve tried to be careful to phrase my opinions as just that: opinions.

    opinions are not statements of fact; they are, in essence, judgments. i’m only asking you to explain how you reached yours.

    if you’re not ready to do that, then i would respectfully suggest that you might not want to publish our opinions in a public forum that is open to immediate commentary.

    also, and, again, with respect, i would suggest that you refrain from ACTING as a representative of all Muslim women — as you did in the last paragraph of your comment posted at 1:39 pm — if you don’t want to be called out on it.

    i find it impossible to believe that all Muslim women feel the same way that you do.

  58. AJ wrote:

    i meant “your opinions.” typo.

  59. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    AJ:

    “also, your point, that many women dress this way voluntarily, was echoed by Wendi Muse and Latoya Peterson. to which i can only respond: what about those women who DON’T want to wear the veil? are you saying that everyone who wears the niqab is doing so of their own free will?”

    Nope. That wasn’t the point though - you are painting the situation with too broad of a stroke. If I was forced to walk around with a cross on, I would be pissed. However, I may choose to walk around with a cross on to express my faith. It is not always a choice - however, some women do CHOOSE to wear it. The countries were it is not a choice are a minority when you look at Islamic nations around the world.

    So while we may disagree with forced policies (like I disagree with theocracies on principle) making the veil a global representation of oppression drastically oversimplifies this issue.

    For some reason, the idea of veiling and oppression has been thoroughly linked in our society. In my opinion, it is unfair.

    Your take on feminism is correct. So my question to you is why are you so willing to question the agency of these woman? Why do they have to be oppressing themselves by veiling? Feminism means standing by a choice - so when a woman explains to me that something is her choice, it is not my job to talk her out of it. Even if I don’t agree. ESPECIALLY if I don’t agree.

    The reason I quoted Tanmeet Sethi above
    was for this line:

    “I pity them; their oppression is so subtle they cannot even recognize it.”

    I had that book for two years and really had to sit with that quote before I got it. My knee jerk reaction was the same as yours - some people don’t know they are being oppressed.

    But come on now - I know a few women who veil here in the US and there are no laws forcing them to do it. In some cases, it is not even family pressure. It is the desire to convey faith for some, and it has other benefits.

    And yes, I said benefits.

    I had a Muslimah classmate once and we would often ride home together. I asked her a lot of questions about Islam back then, and she for her part, answered as honestly as she could. When I asked her about why she veiled, she told me that her parents gave her the choice and she chose to because in her interpretation of Islam, it shows the highest respect to Allah.

    It also had an added benefit - though her body was as curvy as mine, men on the street automatically treated her with respect. There was a physical change in their manner and body language and it was a welcome change to the predatory postures men take when approaching women on the street. There have been many times when I am walking home from work when I wished I could have that kind of instant respect afforded to me.

    I also feel like it is important for allies to check themselves - often because what we think is going on and what is actually happening can be so different.

    To use another line of argument for the example:

    I often read things on feminist blogs about women of color. What always drives me nuts is that someone will always trot out the excuse that “women of color are poor and can’t access the internet, so they cannot educate themselves on xxx.”

    WTF?

    Leaving aside the erroneous assumption that being poor automatically means you will never have access to the internet, let’s look at two recent arguments.

    1. Women of Color are poor and cannot access the internet so they don’t know about healthy eating. (That was the NYT blog on Food)

    2. Women of Color are poor and cannot access the internet, so they don’t know about sites like HollerbackNYC and cannot report their harassers. (Older conversation on Feministe).

    Both these people (commenters, not blog owners) came to logical conclusions based on individual things they had read - but not experienced. By holding on to this assumption, they were not able to hear what people were actually saying.

    On the NYT blog, WoC answered to say we are on the internet and we do care about healthy eating - but did you ever consider that there may be other priorities in place before a diet overhaul? If you consider the many middle and upper class people who have the time and money to eat well and STILL choose not to, how can you blame a complex problem on a lack of broadband access?

    On the Feministe blog, no one said anything to contradict the woman’s musing (this was an old post - I read it last week but it was from July) but I wonder how many women hold on to that ideal.

    Would it ever occur to them that maybe there are societal/cultural reasons for not immediately reporting any all street harassment? Conditioning to deal with it, either by ignoring the men or by confrontation? The feeling that authorties are not looking out for the interests of the black family and the fact that people incarcerate black men with little to no cause? Feeling like reporting each individual guy to a website or to the authorities would take more time than we have in a day?

    The point, AJ, is that ideas are great but they do not necessarily hold true from person to person, place to place. If we hold on to one idea, even as others tell us a story that differs from the paradigm we believe, limits us from fully engaging in a discussion.

    *whew*

    Sewere: THANK YOU! I knew I missed something in my first response. Apology, ha! Individual corporations and institutions have apologized. Not the gov’t.

  60. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    *please ignore typos. *sigh* Thinking too fast for the grammar/spelling to catch up…

  61. Ms. Four wrote:

    AJ, I want to clarify what I said about the women’s car on the metro in Cairo: every underground train in Cairo has at least one car, but usually two, that are for women only. However, women may go in ANY car. It’s just men who can’t go in the women’s car (or sometimes they do, by accident, and it’s clear they are mortified when they dash off to change cars at the very next stop).

    As a light-skinned foreigner, I feel much more comfortable on the women’s car, where, when I get stares, it’s only from women. But I likely wouldn’t have any problems on the mixed sex cars. But I’m still new here and am far more comfortable with Egyptian women than Egyptian men strangers.

    Having said all that, I do understand the points you are making. Fatemeh, you have so much good stuff to tell us and teach us, but sometimes the hyberbole and sarcasm make it hard to understand.

  62. Sewere wrote:

    Oh joy, the comparison with black folk is never ending

    I’ve heard that, in the past in the United States, many cities had tons of blacks-only spaces where blacks could go. Blacks-only train cars and blacks-only restrooms, etc. Too bad Nadia wasn’t around to tell the black people how good they had it.

    Why do I get the sneaky suspicion that most of the people trotting out this tired ass comparison aren’t black? Like a black person would know the history of U.S. slavery and an official apology.

    It’s like the pro-life gang (Dobson for example) who suddenly trot out “slavery was legal but morally wrong so is abortion”… but ask them about interracial marriages there’s a brief pause, followed by umming and awwing. Black folks and people of color know when you’re speaking in support of us rather than using us for political expediency.

  63. Sewere wrote:

    Latoya, word.

  64. Paul wrote:

    a. Bill Clinton officially apologized for slavery. I know it’s a totally empty and self-serving gesture, but it’s more than any Muslim leader has done.
    b. Christians and Jews also ought to apologize for atrocities committed by their co-religionists. If you choose to associate yourself with a religious community, then you do have a moral obligation to apologize for transgressions.

  65. MNC wrote:

    I also found this new story useful from the Muslim Women’s League website. I’m going to do my own research on Asma Barlas-I don’t know much about her and she sounds like she’s doing interesting work.

    Uncovering the Truth
    #

    Stereotypes of submission, oppression anger many Muslim women

    By Omar Sacirbey. Omar Sacirbey is an Alicia Patterson Foundation fellow.

    Los Angeles Times
    September 18, 2005

    NADA SELAMEH doesn’t hold back her opinions on the American media. “I don’t like the way they represent us,” she said. They make the American public attack us. What upsets me is the way they portray Muslim women as being oppressed by their men.”

    Before 9/11, Selameh never wore a hijab, the head scarf some Muslim women wear as an expression of modesty. But when dusty burkas became the defining image of Muslim women during the war in Afghanistan, the native of Dearborn, Mich., started wearing a hijab at 26.

    “I felt that I wasn’t the female the media were showing as representative of Muslims,” she said.

    Ironically, few knew she was a Muslim in the first place. “When I’m not covered, I just blend in,” she said. “But being covered, people know, ‘OK, she’s Muslim.’ But I don’t have 10 kids. I’m not married. I work. I have a master’s degree.”

    Before she donned her hijab, Selameh was among the unveiled majority of Muslim women in the West who are less visible than those in burkas.

    She was one of about 2,000 Arab Americans, most of them Muslims, attending the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee’s annual convention this summer. Most women were business casual — knee-length skirts, slacks and button-downs. Designer T-shirts, low-cut jeans and miniskirts were popular among younger women. Selameh was one of only a handful of women wearing the hijab. Still, she worried that “the face of the Muslim woman” would be that of a “hijabi,” not the hijabless majority.

    Selameh has reason to worry. “Veiled Praise” was a recent headline in the New York Times. “What It’s Like When I Wear Hijab” was another in the Lexington Herald-Leader. The headline “Muslim women face decisions on traditional, modern values” appeared in the Boston Globe, accompanied by photos of women wearing head scarves. Add TV images of Arab women in niqabs or columns of Iranian women in chadors — and it’s hard not to say “covered” when you think of Muslim women.

    To most Westerners, “an authentic Muslim woman is always wearing a hijab,” said Asma Barlas, a Koran scholar at Ithaca College whose female-centric interpretations of Islam’s holy book have sparked controversy in the Muslim world.

    In reality, most Muslim women in the United States and in Europe don’t wear the hijab, except for worship, because they are members of a secular majority or see themselves as cultural Muslims, identifying more with rai music or rumi poetry than with salah, or Scripture. Still others are devoted Muslims but don’t view the hijab as a prerequisite of spirituality.

    To these Muslim women, the hijab is more than an annoying media stereotype. It obscures their independence, outspokenness and career-mindedness.

    Without the hijab, “we don’t exist. We’re not allowed to be the face of Islam,” said Laila Al-Marayati, a physician and the chairwoman of the Los Angeles-based Muslim Women’s League.”

    An example of the media’s preferred face of the Muslim woman recently appeared in a Seattle Times story headlined “Preserving modesty, in the pool.” The piece featured a group of Muslim women who gathered at an indoor pool once a month to swim. Before swimming, they taped brown paper over the windows so men couldn’t see them. “Because Islam requires Muslim women to fully cover themselves in public,” the story said, “swimming in pools or the ocean is largely off-limits for many.”

    The face of Munira Sheriff better reflects Muslim women in secular societies. The recent graduate of Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government wore a midline skirt and button-down shirt when I met her.

    “A lot of people forget that everybody is allowed to interpret the religion,” she said. “I believe that Islam wants us to be modest. And I believe this midline skirt I’m wearing is acceptable modesty [in the United States]. In Pakistan, I would not wear this because it wouldn’t be acceptable; it wouldn’t be modest there.”

    In rejecting the hijab as a defining characteristic of Muslim women, Koran scholars such as Barlas contend that the head scarf is not rooted in theology but in the traditions of male-dominated societies. In her book “Believing Women in Islam,” she argues that neither of the two Koranic verses cited by conservatives to justify the veiling of women specifies a preferred covering. Rather, women should “guard their modesty” and “draw their cloaks over their bosoms.”

    “There are many ways in which you can cover your bosom,” a hijab being just one of them, Barlas said. The idea that women have to cover their head and face emerged a few hundred years after Islam’s birth and was based on the belief that women’s bodies are corrupting, a belief unsupported in the Koran, Barlas argued.

    These arguments are not confined to academic circles. Muslim moderates around the world hear and talk about them. Last year, Barlas spoke at the annual convention of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, an advocacy group, and spent several weeks this summer in Indonesia talking about her interpretations of the Koran.

    “Things are happening,” Barlas said, “but they are slow, and they will take time.”

    Barlas’ story — a Muslim woman seeking to undo centuries of patriarchy infuriates the male establishment, with some wanting her head — is a good one. But there are lots of smart, opinionated Muslim women in the United States with equally good stories, if only the media drops their veil of preconceptions.

  66. AJ wrote:

    Latoya:

    many thanks for your thoughtful response.

    i’m sorry if i came across as painting the issue with a broad brush. that wasn’t my intention. in fact, it was my feeling that fatemeh is using an overly broad brush that prompted me to comment in the first place. so i apologize if that’s how i, myself, came across.

    my argument has nothing to do with whether or not Muslim women wear the veil out of choice.

    my argument is simply this: given what i have learned and read about the cultural and historical context of the Middle East in general, and the more conservative and fundamentalist interpretations of Islam in particular, IN REGARDS TO THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN, then one could argue that the naqib is an extension of the oppression of women in that part of the world.

    i read with interest your recounting of the conversations with your friend, who explained that the veil frees her from being seen as prey by the men around her.

    i can see the validity of this argument.

    on the other hand, i have to wonder whether or not the adoption of the veil can be completely divorced from the fact that women in some parts of the Middle East are themselves held responsible if they are the victims of rape and secual assault.

    in other words, is it so crazy to wonder whether or not the adoption of the veil is a response to the fear of sexual attack, and the knowledge that you could very well end up being punished if it happens to you? that, rather than risk being told “you were ASKING for it,” some women just give up on the whole idea that they have a right to expect justice and take the easier route of covering themselves from head to toe whenever they venture out of the house?

    i’m not looking to make points here, or hurt anyone’s feelings, or make anyone angry. i really would like to hear back: is that really so outlandish a notion?

  67. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Sewere -

    For real. You ever notice how we’re the oppression gold standard? I was just talking about this with some fat acceptance bloggers. I was reading their work, and kept seeing people say stuff like “Oh, it used to be ok to discriminate against black people but you can’t do that anymore!”

    WTF? Did you forget people died for these rights? It wasn’t like people just woke up like “Damn, that was wrong. We were trippin! Sorry black people - here’s a fresh dose of equality!”

    [Going back to the topic…]

    Paul - Bill Clinton apologizing for slavery (which I haven’t heard about, but it doesn’t strike me as too strange) isn’t the same as a governmental apology. That’s like Al Gore doing the booty call dance - and? What did that fix? Bill Clinton’s got an office in Harlem! He loves black people! (Gentrification in Harlem? How convenient!)

    In addition, I do recall reading (maybe MSNBC, maybe Washington Post) about a new generation of Muslim leaders stepping up in the US to show the peace loving Islam. I am not sure who you are qualifying as Muslim leaders (people in the mosques? Ayatollahs? Grand Ayatollahs? Clerics?) but some people do speak out against practices they disagree with.

    And fuck all that - I refuse to apologize for other assholes who use my label who don’t believe what I do. If I attend tolerant Covenant Life church, why should I apologize for a homophobic guest preacher at Metropolitan Baptist? All Christians don’t speak for me. Most Christians don’t speak for me.

    If I choose to be a Christian, it means I chose to follow Christ. To know anymore about what I specifically believe, you’ll have to ask me. Since religious thought varies WIDELY I am not going to apologize for the assumptions of others and whatever they associate with my faith.

    Judge me on my words, my deeds, and my actions, my values as I tell you…not on some bullshit someone else decided to do while sharing a label with me.

    And that goes for all my labels: potential Christian/feminist/gamer/activist/black-American/woman. I’ll be damned if I spend my life apologizing for the misguided actions of a few.

  68. Sewere wrote:

    Paul,

    contradict yourself much, if an apology was empty and self-serving, then is it really an apology?

    If you choose to associate yourself with a religious community, then you do have a moral obligation to apologize for transgressions.

    Great, so where’s yours?

  69. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    MNC -

    Sorry, I forgot to say thanks for the great articles! I have one to add as well:

    http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2007/12/ayaan_hirsi_ali_and_muslim_dir.html

    “To mainstream Muslims everywhere: When we act and speak with compassion and conviction and knowledge, even about our ‘dirty laundry’, we are following the straight path of our faith, educating those with genuine questions about Islam, marginalizing people with destructive agendas, and doing our part to build a world based on understanding and respect.”

    ******

    AJ:

    I’m about to head out to yoga, so I will respond more when I get back. I did want to clarify though that my friend choose to wear the hijab out of deference to her faith’s tenents of modesty. Her younger sister’s chose not to veil.

    I NOTICED the reaction from men after a few of these interactions. So avoiding sexual harm was not a part of her MO when choosing to veil or not.

    (FYI, thinking one can avoid sexual harm by the way they dress is fairly silly - most women learn this notion is a fallacy at an early age. We can dress to try to discourage attention, but at the end of the day some men will still scream obsenities at someone in a pom-pom hat, knee length down jacket, and wide legs.)

    In addition, I feel like you are trying to cover multiple issues. So more on the hija/niqab/middle east/violence against women when I get back.

    *****

    Paul -

    To clarify, I was not cursing at you, specifically, in my last post. I am a bit angry but that is directed at the idiotic notion that aligning yourself with a group means that you have accepted all their wrong doings as your own. There are groups you are born into and groups you chose, and I have yet to meet a label that did not have subsets.

  70. AJ wrote:

    ms. four:

    thanks for the clarification about segregation on the underground in cairo. that casts a different light on it.

  71. MNC wrote:

    I urge everyone, even those who think they have this issue sussed, to do some additional readings.

    I’m looking for a cross reference because I don’t believe in garnering all of your info from one source, but this Asama Barlas is laying it on me deep. (I may also be biased because it seems she’s done a talk or two with MPAC which is a group I’m familiar thanks to a close friend)

    In the heat of an spirited discussion, I think it’s easy to tune out people you think are not hearing you and vice versa.

    Sometimes people on the more progressive/seemingly open minded end of the spectrum can have tunnel vision and shut down people they believe “just don’t get it.”

    Those of us who feel they’ve done “all the work” can lose all patience (sometimes rightly so) with the “don’t get its” even if those people are struggling to to do their own personal work to make sense of worlds beyond their own.

    Clearly we are all trying to do the work here.

    By virtue of posting on this blog and engaging with others who may or may not agree with us, I think demonstrates that fact.

    If we all lose sight of the fact that those of us committed to real change/growth are always engaged in the process of learning and growing (and need the space and patience to go through those processes) then we won’t get anywhere.

    I’d like to again urge everyone to continue to read
    and explore the issues brought up here and continue to challenge themselves. Thanks to all those who provided the links to the additional info.

  72. Paul wrote:

    No religion here, Sewere. I don’t like the idea that genuinely good people will be punished for eternity because they ate meat on Friday, ate pork, etc..

  73. Paul wrote:

    By the way, can we all agree that profanity is untoward? It is, afterall, the refuge of the intellectually weak.

  74. Julie wrote:

    My god, what is the big misunderstanding? I wrote a paper on veils when I was SIXTEEN and even I understood it then. Many wear it out of pride. Many wear it to say a big FUCK YOU to clueless and misguided Westerners. Many wear it because it’s friggin’ gorgeous. Perhaps some feel obligated to wear it due to familial or societal pressures - but hell, point out any culture that DOESN’T require some kind of specific clothing at some point in our mediocre lifetimes. Last I checked in America, we have school uniforms, corporate dress, and um- VEILS on a wedding day.

  75. Yolanda Carrington wrote:

    No religion here, Sewere. I don’t like the idea that genuinely good people will be punished for eternity because they ate meat on Friday, ate pork, etc..

    Paul, forgive me for coming to this conclusion, but it seems to me that all the ardent feminist concern of yours is nothing more than a smokescreen for Islamophobia. There’s nothing new or original about this rhetorical sleight of hand—imperialists and other bigots have made arguments like this since God knows when.

    I find your line of argument deeply disrespectful to Fatemeh, Nadia, all Muslim women and men and every person of color here.

  76. Danni wrote:

    I just wanted to say two quick things:

    1) I love this blog and the conversations it creates. It’s amazing that the internet (and carmen & co) creates spaces for open and honest dialogues.

    2) I find the gender dynamics (or, what I understand them to be) fascinating. I don’t mean to be condescending, but I think it would be amazing if you took a minute to really think about how your own gender identity and relationship w/ feminism informs your perspectives!

    3) a quote:
    “When 1 in 4 women are victims of domestic violence and 1 in 6 women are victims of sexual assault, you have to ask yourself: ‘What is terrorism?’”- Vivian Jenkins Nelsen

  77. luckyfatima wrote:

    Paul, I agree with Yolanda. Yours is indeed a very thin smokescreen.

  78. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Paul -

    Funny, I thought the refuge of the intellectually weak was a myopic worldview and nonsensical arguments. To each their own, I suppose. (BTW, if you’re going to quote obscure dead people, you may want to see what Twain and Hemmingway had to say on the matter.)

    AJ -

    As I was thinking of a response to you, I saw a letter to the editor in this month’s Pink magazine. The letter reads:

    Your August.September issue included an article about the discrimination Muslim businesswomen face. This is a valid story. Yet I wonder why nothing is said about the war that religious extremists are waging against women. Why not report about Zille Huma Usman, a politician in Pakistan who was shot to death by a man who thought a woman had no business holding public office. What about the girls in the villages of Afghanistan who are afraid to go to school because of threats and intimidation?

    ****
    I read the letter and wondered why the word Muslim is always linked with global atrocities. Personally, I would be kind of pissed if every time I mentioned a black issue here in the US, someone brought up Darfur.

    Yes, we can agree that these acts done in the name of Islam are atrocious - but does that automatically mean that no Muslim is permitted to speak until ALL the problems around the globe are solved?

    But anyway, I am going to assume that you are looking for more proactive answers to your questions. I can point you here:

    http://arabist.net/archives/2007/11/26/tahawy-on-saudi-arabia-treatment-of-women/

    And I am sure if you search around a bit, you can find more communities that are discussing that particular issue.

  79. michelle wrote:

    MNC,

    You last post was spot on. I think that most people who show up are really showing up so that transformation can take place. Sometimes that transformation seems slow, but it is really cool that we are having these kinds of conversations in our current political climate. It is encouraging.

    I have to say, as a Christian, I feel that it is my responsibility to acknowledge and account for the sins of the past. That is just what I choose for myself. I feel that as a representative of the religion…a religion that teaches me to “spread the gospel”….I have no choice but to respond when people bring up the crusades, homophobia, etc. Although, I hear you LaToya. I don’t blame you at all.