Comments

1. Urrrgh wrote:

   There’s so much context missing and obvious bias here don’t even know where to begin!

   NAACP: Anyone not familiar with the origins would be surprised that *gasp* whites (and Jews even) helped form and lead the group, and non-blacks its chapters. Unless expressly stated in its charter, those not representing an affinity group can and do lead with distinction everyday (how much space did you give the black single dad who’s leading MADD?!?) The real story *always* is the media’s attention, group members’ acceptance/rejection, or racial groups response to the news, not that it happens.

   Re King sculpture: Any piece in this vein that ignores comparisons to Maya Lin’s selection for the Vietnam War Memorial is a piece of crap. Politics are exactly the same for race/cultural AND geneartional concerns and there are better quality blog/news pieces covering this.

   Re Chris Matthews: Stupid comment/poor commentary CONSIDERING he was speaking in response to the *most* important neutral minority-sponsored politcal forum open to all candidates which took place in Iowa this past weekend (only the Dems showed). Neither Jack** or Jill nor you have mentioned any of this key stuff from the “Black and Brown Forum” and equally telling comments were made on ABC and Fox that same day about the stance on immigration. That’s why they “don’t get it”– they left out what preceded it.

   Re Sports & Shootings: Read AlterNet’s earlier probing take on both… unless that’s too “white” for you?

   Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 7:23 am ¶

2. dnA wrote:

   It’s not like there isn’t precedent. The NAACP was started by a white Jew. There’s this bizarre idea that all black organizations are like the Nation of Islam. It provides a convenient excuse for white people to avoid participating by claiming everyone “hates” them.

   Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 8:10 am ¶

3. atlasien wrote:

   I don’t have a position on this, but I wanted to note, there is one huge, huge difference between the Vietnam Memorial debate and the King Memorial debate. Maya Lin is an American; Lei Yixin is not.

   Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 9:59 am ¶

4. Lyonside wrote:

   Hey URRGH, when you see “”, that means that it’s NOT Carmen’s opinion, but a clip from the article. The articles are meant to start discussion, and the quotes are to clue us in to the content and to spark interest IN THOSE ARTICLES.

   So why don’t you comment on the linked articles, rather than claim that Carmen is “biased” just for passing on a link?

   Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 10:18 am ¶

5. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

   That post from What About Our Daughters was way over the top!

   Nothing but bile spewed against Black men in general and Black male atheletes in particular.

   And not a word about the continuing racism in America – Gina, the lady who wrote the post, and many of the folks who commented, live in this Bill Cosby world where all of Black America’s problems come from the behavior of Black men.

   It’s basically nothing more than Black self hatred – Tom Metzger or David Duke could have written the post!

   And, in a not very suprising and rather Cosbyesque act of cowardice, the administrators of What About Our Daughters disabled comments, to cut off the debate.

   Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 11:16 am ¶

6. summer wrote:

   I know this is a bit off topic, but since Gregory brought it up, I must say that I respectfully disagree about Cosby. (”respectfully” because I really like most of your comments)

   I watched Cosby on Oprah and I didn’t get that he was blaming “all” of our problems on Black men.

   It is a very, very legitimate argument to say that one of the serious problems with many 0f our youth is a lack of male role models, esp. in the home. No, this is not the only problem. But it’s the one that Cosby is focusing on. I think he is speaking out of love and hurt for our people, not out of hatred or malice. At least, as a black woman, that’s how I take it.

   Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 3:09 pm ¶

7. summer wrote:

   Okay, now I read the WAOD post. She has some valid concerns, but yes, it was somewhat over the top. I think it was more of a personal vent than an informational post.

   Ellis Cose wrote a wonderful book called Envy of the World: On being a black man in America, or something like that. He tackles the “keeping it real” phenomenon in one of the best ways I’ve ever heard. Rather than lumping every black athlete, rapper, actor into the same boat, he uses specific examples and discusses specific issues.

   That’s what I think Cosby is trying to do, too, though I admit, he does generalize at times.

   Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 3:20 pm ¶

8. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

   I actually heard one of Bill Cosby’s speeches recently. On November 5, he spoke at Medgar Evers College in Brooklyn, NY, and I was able to get in the overflow room and hear him speak.

   And I must say, I was horrified!!

   The level of racist bile against Black men (not to mention male chauvanism against Black women) was off the charts.

   Cosby has this view that there is one narrow acceptable range of acceptable Black culture – basically, a cleaned up, idealized and sanitized version of upper class Black Southern Christian culture from about 50 years ago – and all other African American culture is defective and wrong.

   Cosby blames all the problems suffered by Black males on.. the behavior, dress and musical preferences of working class Black young men.

   And the WAY he expresses his distate for Black men is unbelievably raw (at one point in his speech, he said that young Black men in the inner cities “walk like gorillas”!!!!)

   But Cosby saves his worst bile for the sistas.

   He blames Black mothers for the behavior of Black men – and basically advocates the restoration of Daniel Patrick Moynihan-style patriarchy in our families and our communities.

   Cosby also thinks it’s a problem that too many Black women have college educations and in particular he thinks there are too many Black woman school principals and teachers.

   In short, Bill Cosby “loves” Black people about as much as David Duke does!

   Now, if Cosby had the guts to release his college speeches on DVD or CD, or to have them broadcast (live or on tape delay) or to even have transcripts released, we’d all know just how much “Dr” Cosby hates working class African Americans.

   So, I’m sorry, Summer, but I really have to disagree with you – at a time when America seems to have genocide in store for our race, Cosby is right out there collaborating, by joining in the chorus of demonization.

   Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 8:43 pm ¶

9. michelle wrote:

   I don’t think that the WOAD post was over the top at all. She didn’t spew bile at all black men, nor did she accuse all black male atheletes. She accused black men (and the white establishment) of glorifying thugged out, ignorant, mysogynist, criminalized images of Black men. She even talks about the Black men who are the antithesis of those things, being degraded and emasculated by other Black men (and again, the White establishment).

   You know what I am concerned about, the fact that Black men and Black women simply can’t, don’t, won’t or don’t know how to communicate with one another. How are we supposed to come together on behalf of the current generation that needs us to vote for them, speak for them and be present for them, if we can’t hear one another. Unless of course we are not ultimately meant to try and make the circumstances of this current generation better. Maybe we are not.

   Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 9:16 pm ¶

10. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Michelle,

    I won’t pretent to speak for all African American men. However, speaking strictly for myself, I have serious problems with Gina and the What About Our Daughters website.

    WAOD is VERY Cosbyish – they have a worldview where all of the problems of Black America are Black people’s fault!

    There is no systematic racism, slavery never happened, we don’t have 1 million Black men and 100,000 Black women in prison (most of whom are doing hard time for things that would get a White person probation), there is no job discrimination (we live in a country where White employers would rather hire a White felon than a Black person who’s never been arrested) – in short, these folks totally cover up for the high crimes and misdemeanors of American White Supremacism!!!

    Instead, WAOD attacks Black men, basically because of the effect that systematic discriminaiton has on us.

    As for Black women, WAOD’s “program” – if you want to call it that – basically consists of advocating personal financial planning, diet and exercise (with some WAOD posters also joining in the Daniel Patrick Moynihan demonize Black single mother’s club too).

    I can understand the pain these sistas feel – especially since that website was created in the wake of a young teenage sista being gang raped by a group of brothas (which, sadly, was only one of a series of rapes in that community)

    However, WAOD’s creators have been led by their grief into embracing the worst kind of Cosbyism (and, considering the allegations of Cosby’s own crimes against Black women, perhaps they should rethink their support for his views!)

    Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 9:46 pm ¶

11. summer wrote:

    gregory, i respect your argument; i did not hear cosby speak w/out an interviewer. based on the interview as moderated by oprah, i got the impression that Cosby wants to focus on what we are doing to ourselves and what we can do for ourselves as opposed to what others are doing to us.

    unless, as you allude to, i am able to hear an uninterrupted speech of his myself and come to this impression on my own, i just cannot or will not believe he can really be compared to a klansman.

    Posted 05 Dec 2007 at 10:32 pm ¶

12. Colin wrote:

    I do not like Cosby’s thoughts on poor and working class blacks, his sneering, demeaning attitude towards poor black youths and young black culture is frankly pedantic, and his over-the-top mocking of his brothers and sisters adds fuel to the metaphorical fire white and black conservatives alike would love to start up on their hollow cross of colorblindness.

    Now, that said, Bill Cosby is no David Duke. I have much more disdain for people like Jason Whitlock who think there is a black Klan or who blame the victim and project the actual racism they are suffering onto them.
    ———————————-
    The rhetoric in WAOD is a bit radical, such as the use of the term “sports industrial complex”, (which must be completely dwarfed by complexes of actual size in America like the military-industrial complex) and just bad, bad assertions. Over the top? Sure…I mean…

    1) “When you blame poverty for people running around shooting other human beings indiscriminately, you slander the poor. There is no correlation between morality and net worth.”

    Think about the second sentence, then configure a scientific test to measure the correlation between morality and net worth. Obviously there’s no known correlation because it can’t be found!

    2) “There have always been immoral murderous people, but again, they didn’t dominate the mainstream. Think about this insanity: The Black multimillionaire that has a baby mama in every city…Well he’s from the streets and is KEEPING IT REAL!”

    Even ignoring the silliness of mocking “KEEPING IT REAL” as is repeatedly done, the idea, in saying immoral murderous people haven’t dominated the mainstream is laughable on its face. Two words and one letter: George W. Bush.

    3) “Either fit within our narrow boundaries of socially acceptable behavior, or you will not get our mainstream money.”

    I get that she’s trying to start a social movement, but I feel like I’ve seen this Dog and Pony show before…wasn’t this called the Moral Majority way back when? Anyways…

    I can see really not intelligent assertions on there, but I also see good intent in there. The only thing that ticks me off is the feel I get from it that the author sees the possibility not to mobilize people around her positions, but a possibility to garner the necessary power to grab her 15 mins, like Tipper Gore and Joe Liebermann tried to do with video games and Giuliani is trying to do with 9/11. The author seems like a slimy opportunist to me, but not a Klansman.
    —————————————
    URRGH: Sorry but this isn’t Reuters where people will just write every “story” involving any hint of politics as though there are two equally correct sides that must be both given a voice to preserve some superficial notion of above-the-fray objectivity. I am honestly glad you’re with us in wanting to comment and argue and debate, but don’t get it twisted; this is not the evening news, it’s a blog.

    Posted 06 Dec 2007 at 12:21 am ¶

13. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Summer,

    The next time Bill Cosby comes to your community, and makes one of those closed to the media, no transcript, no recording devices speeches, you should go out and hear for yourself.

    I think you would be shocked and horrified as I was – and if you close your eyes, it will sound like a kluxer is speaking!!!.

    There’s a REASON why Cosby has one sanitized for-public-consumption version of his views – and a whole different version that gets aired behind closed doors to elite Black audiences.

    To roughly summarize, Cosby’s “solutions” for Black America are – open support for mass incarceration of young Black men, and a sharp reversal of all the professional and educational progress that Black women have made (basically, he feels the sistas need to get “back in their place” – about 10 paces behind the brothas).

    Of course, since Cosby is a talented comedian, author and speaker, he has a way of saying this kind of offensive bile to all Black and heavily female audiences – and actually getting people to applaud, and making them think that he’s somehow “pro Black”!!!

    So you still may end up agreeing with him, and feeling his anti-Black self hate fest is somehow “pro Black” after you hear him.

    But, if you listen carefully and critically to WHAT he has to say, rather than HOW CLEVERLY AND AMUSINGLY he says it, I think you’ll agree with me that Cosby basically and objectively supports the present wave of anti Black genocide in this country.

    Posted 06 Dec 2007 at 6:09 am ¶

14. summer wrote:

    Gregory,

    I am curious: How much responsibility for what “ails” Black America do you feel lies within the black community? 50/50, 90/10?

    For example, on a different blog, people were commenting about a black woman who is a grandmother at age 30. One commenter blamed Republicans who advocate abstinence programs and are pro-life instead of the teens actually making the babies. She felt those Republican stances were intended to keep blacks and Hispanics down.

    I vehemently disagree , and actually find that insulting as a black woman. So only blacks and Hispanics can’t control themselves in the face of such programs, but whites can? I honestly believe that the blame lies 100% with the parents and teens involved. As far as I know, Republicans aren’t making anybody have unprotected sex.

    It is undeniable that, due to our past, blacks usually have to climb just to reach ground level. However, I think that many times we’ve voluntarily injested many poisonous stereotypes (e.g., being “cool” is “black”; studious is “white”) to our own detriment.

    Posted 07 Dec 2007 at 12:30 am ¶

15. summer wrote:

    oh, also, i just remembered: cosby did come through this way two or three months back. but, uhm, the ticket prices were not quite in the budget.

    Posted 07 Dec 2007 at 12:31 am ¶

16. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Summer,

    Considering the fact that we never asked to come to this country in the first place, were kidnapped and brought here by force, were held in bondage for 255 years, denied equal rights for another 99 years after that and are still treated as second class citizens to this very day, I’d have to say that White America (and specifically, White American racism) are 100% responsible for our problems in this country today.

    Beyond that, for the record, White America has a higher teenage pregnancy rate than Black America does.

    And you will also find that the Red States with their abstinance only education nonsense have much higher teenage pregancy rates than Blue States.

    Beyond that, why is teenage pregnancy in and of itself so terrible?

    It’s terrible that teenagers are not adequately educated about their sexuality, and their quite natural desire to experiment sexually.

    It’s also terrible that teenage girls who get pregnant are discriminated against and demonized.

    It’s also terrible that services for young mothers and their children are inadequate or nonexistant.

    I refuse to join in this whole hypocritical moralistic campaign to demonize the sexuality of young women – so I refuse to join the orthodoxy that condemns young women for getting pregnant.

    Posted 07 Dec 2007 at 11:22 am ¶

17. summer wrote:

    I refuse to join in this whole hypocritical moralistic campaign to demonize the sexuality of young women – so I refuse to join the orthodoxy that condemns young women for getting pregnant.

    I wasn’t asking you to condemn young women. For the record, I said “teens” — which includes both parties, and I was highlighting unprotected sex not a “hypocritical moralistic campaign” of abstinence, etc.

    Anyways, your statement, “I’d have to say that White America (and specifically, White American racism) are 100% responsible for our problems in this country today,” answered my question.

    This statement sheds light on your refusal to see any part of Cosby or WAOD’s argument as reasonable. You probably wouldn’t like Cose’s book after all. It asks people to take personal responsibility, and you seem to believe that we have none. Frankly, that scares me.

    I guess I kinda fall somewhere in-between the view of white America as having total vs no blame.

    Posted 07 Dec 2007 at 5:39 pm ¶

18. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Summer,

    As you may have guessed, I have serious problems with this whole concept of “personal responsibility”.

    Because it ignores the fact that we don’t all have the same choices.

    Bill Cosby was fortunate enough to become a very successful groundbreaking entertainer – which catapulted him into multimillionare status wealth, widespread influence and respectability (how else would a college dropout get a bogus “masters degree” and a “doctorate”??)

    So, his choices are a whole lot wider than a young woman born in the projects to marginally employed poor parents (who’s limited employment options are almost entirely due to the institutional racism of the White business community), growing up in an institutionally racist school system where she’s taught that she’s stupid, her culture is pathological and she and kids like her aren’t even worth the bother of educating.

    That hypothetical young woman has a far more limited range of choices…. tarring her with the brush of “personal responsibility” totally ignores that fact.

    The same goes for the young brotha who grew up across the hall from her, who got pushed out of school even earlier than she did and was locked out of all but the lowest paying jobs – and who ended up “on the corner” in the one form of employment where they have no problem hiring young Black men.

    Talking about his “personal responsibility” is a cruel joke – in a world where his choice is between McDonalds and being “on the grind”, and where – thanks to systematic institutional racism in the “justice” system – he’s more likely to see central booking than the college admissions office.

    I used to work as a vocational instructor in a GED program – where my students were taking the only “personal responsibility” that was available.

    Even then, we had to turn down 160 out of 200 applicants (and this in a catchment area of 5,000 apartments – so that was a large proportion of the youth in that community).

    And, the WAY my bosses at the agency made me turn down applicants turned my stomach!!!

    Basically, I was told to do the same thing that Taft High School had done to these young people when they had been “discharged” (a current Board of Ed euphamism for pushing kids out of high school).

    I was told to essentially tell them that they weren’t smart enough to get “job training”

    This so called “training” for unskilled entry level construction and clerical jobs – the kind of jobs that WHITE high school dropouts have as a birthright!!!

    Their only alternative was to get bare bones Board of Ed GED training from a city run program that shared our space.

    So much for “Dr” Cosby’s “personal responsibility”!!!!!

    Posted 08 Dec 2007 at 6:29 pm ¶

19. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    I should point out, of the 40 students who DID get in our program – we didn’t have a single job placement avaible for any of them!

    Our “training” wasn’t recognized by any union, company or employment services agency – so they’d still be at square one when it came to getting a job.

    I should also point out that my students were NOT a bunch of dummies – Bill Cosby’s slutty young women and young men who “walk like gorillas”!

    They were an unusually smart and perseverent group of youth, who had overcome lots of obstacles (in particular, being branded as stupid and not worh educating by the biggest public school district in the nation) to even walk in my door.

    And I had to turn down 80% of them for services!!!

    Even the other 20% got nothing more than a GED and a xeroxed certificate of completion of an uncertified “training program” when they walked out of our program!

    When I think of my bright eyed and hard working students – and millionare bourgeois Negroes like Cosby who brand them as immoral degenerates who brought their own suffering down upon themselves – I want to SCREAM!!!

    Finally, the school where my students came from (or, to be more precise, were KICKED OUT OF) , Taft High School… the teachers there were so openly contemptuous of their students they used to say that “TAFT” stood for “Teaching Animals For Today”!!!

    Considering that kind of contempt that these young folks had to face at a very formative period in their lives, can you HONESTLY say the problem is “personal responsibility”????

    So no, I won’t be reading “Dr” Cosby’s book….

    Posted 08 Dec 2007 at 6:42 pm ¶

20. summer wrote:

    Hi Gregory,

    I completely agree that there are inherent problems and obstacles faced just by nature of our race. Here is where I’m coming from though with the idea of personal responsibility:

    My mom is one of 12 children. They grew up in rural Arkansas ‘chopping cotton’; allowed to go to school when it rained. She was always interested in reading though, and though her siblings teased her, she expressed a desire to be a teacher. My grandparents had 3rd grade and 8th grade educations.

    My mother was the only one to graduate from college (now UAPB on scholarship), though two other siblings did attend. In all, only 4 of the 11 (one died as a baby) have what I would deem marginally successful lives. The others got involved in alcohol or drugs. However, even some of their children, my cousins, have chosen not to follow their paths, and are also marginally successful (beauticians, college, or otherwise gainfully employed.)

    I guess what I’m saying is that there are two sides to that coin you show above. I’m glad that my mother didn’t buy into the whole “my lot is my lot,” but instead made the best of her circumstances and improved her life and subsequently mine as well.

    My point is that while there are some, like the ones in your program, who face unbelievable obstacles, to say that we have no personal responsibility just sounds like giving up. And that breaks my heart.

    I’ve seen people come from nothing. You don’t have to accept what you’re given just because we were brought here some 300 yrs ago against our will. And the fact that we even have to struggle to climb and that some will fall through the cracks most assuredly is the fault of centuries of institutional racism.

    But as for many like my relatives, especially one who was doing well and in her late-30s started hanging with the wrong crowd and ended up addicted to crack, to say that they had no personal responsibility to resist alcohol and drugs when my mom came from the same shack that they did is nonsense.

    So yes, there are things that are under our control. Yes, we still have a choice. Yes, there is personal responsibility that must be taken.

    Also, I referenced Ellis Cose’s book, not Cosby’s. You have made it crystal clear that you aren’t trying to read anything Cosby. lol.

    Posted 09 Dec 2007 at 7:43 pm ¶

21. brad wrote:

    An Open Letter to Angry Asian Man:

    Dear Mr. Angry Asian Man:

    I was very disappointed in your comments about the so-called controversy over the statue of Martin Luther King Jr. In your article, you described the artist, Mr. Lei, as “damn good.” What you did not do was to educate your audience on Mr. Lei’s background as a sculptor of statues of Mao and other PRC officials. Many people object to Mr. Lei’s choice because of his work honoring a man who is responsible for millions of deaths. By not delving into this area, you fail your readers.

    Is it fair to say that like some of the people who want the statue of King to be sculpted by an African-American, you are showing bias in favor of someone of your “racial” background?

    Let’s be honest. Do you think Dr King would have any dealings with anyone who enabled propaganda for a country that has a long history of human rights abuses? While the artist Lei may not be guilty of any direct crimes, isn’t there something inherently incompatible with Lei’s willingness to serve an authoritarian, oppressive government and the memory of Dr King, who fought and died to bring down oppressive government policies?

    Isn’t it also disingenuous of you to also twist this issue by suggesting that King was not only just an American hero but also an international hero in the defense of Lei? Obviously, King as a human rights activist who won the Nobel Peace Prize is an international hero but that has nothing to do with the selection of Lei or anyone else who assists oppressive governments.

    That said, why should not Americans want a son of their land, one who was denied full citizenship of his land, to have a statue made from granite dug from American soil? There is such thing as symbolism. And, no, Angry Asian Man, I don’t care about the “race” of the sculptor. And, yes, I would think that it would be more meaningful if the sculptor, regardless of race, were American. That would say a great deal about progress in the U.S.

    I am very saddened by your willingness to play racial politics with such an issue. As you say, “That’s Racist!”

    http://www.angryasianman.com/2007/12/controversy-continues-over-king.html

    Posted 10 Dec 2007 at 3:41 am ¶

22. justin wrote:

    What does American Granite symbolise? If it is grey does it become an abstract representation of concrete, or seersucker, depending on what it’s carved into?
    How does an authoritarian and oppressive government effect an individuals willingness to serve? Is it subtle and coercive? Does freedom of choice make you more or less guilty of crimes by proxy?
    I wonder if Lei Yixin has a Chinese version of Frida Kahlo locked in his basement, because his legend doesn’t seem adequate or tragic enough to be palatable. Maybe they should have hired him as technician through a design company and specified that they want heroic realism with out any baggage. Maybe Jeff Koons could hire him to make sculptures of Bruce Springsteen , perhaps that would seem insincere.

    Posted 10 Dec 2007 at 8:17 am ¶

23. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Summer,

    Your family’s story is very inspiring – I’m glad you all were able to come so far.

    Of course, I must point out, we now live in an age where America no longer needs Black labor – so it would be far more difficult for people like your parents to move ahead today.

    The agency I worked at was in the Bronx, a borough where, as recently as 20 years ago, it was possible for a young person with no high school diploma to make a decent living in the factories that still dotted the South Bronx and the industrial parts of Yonkers, Mt Vernon and New Rochelle that were adjacent to the Northern Bronx.

    That is no longer the case – those jobs are gone.

    And without that economic floor, it’s a lot harder to get up.

    Beyond that, why should we even trap ourselves in a discourse where poverty is taken as inevatible, and the best we can hope for is for a few excptionally strong-willed individuals to “take personal responsibility” and “pull themselves out of poverty”??

    Why can’t we envision a world where there is no poverty?

    Of course, that’s not possible under the capitalist system – but who says that capitalism is the only possible way that our society can be organized?

    That’s where I’m coming from when I condemn Cosby, and all the other bourgeois Negroes who blame the so called “pathology” and “refusal to take personal responsibility” of the Black poor (rather than the normal functioning of the capitalist system) for the existance of Black poverty.

    Posted 10 Dec 2007 at 10:43 am ¶

24. summer wrote:

    Gregory,

    Hard labor in NO WAY helped my grandparents “get ahead”. Are you kidding me? They were chopping cotton in rural Arkansas, with 12 children. Um, it was not a good life. What I’m saying is that despite her piss poor childhood, poverty didn’t become my mom’s lot in life due to choices that she made. Education helped her get ahead.

    I really wasn’t sharing my story for inspiration; my point was that all of my mom’s siblings came from the same opportunities, but their personal choices have taken them down different roads.

    As much as I’m enjoying our discussion, I feel like it’s going nowhere. I’m getting frustrated even trying to construct a reply.

    It’s weird that even though we’re literally spelling out our arguments, neither of us seems to be hearing the other.

    Posted 10 Dec 2007 at 11:13 am ¶

25. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Summer,

    In this age of outsourcing, education isn’t an answer for “pulling yourself out of poverty” anymore either.

    My point was we should fight for a world where NOBODY is poor, rather than just demanding that individual poor people pull themselves out of poverty.

    Yes, that would mean going to a society beyond the present capitalist system, where the prosperity of the few is based on the misery of the many.

    And you’re right – I don’t think you’re hearing my arguments.

    However, I do think I am hearing your arguments – I just don’t agree with them.

    Posted 10 Dec 2007 at 4:08 pm ¶

26. summer wrote:

    no, you’re not hearing mine either. you’re simplifying them, but you’re not hearing them.

    Posted 10 Dec 2007 at 8:30 pm ¶