Between a Rock and a Hard Place: Triple Threats and Double Troubles for Muslim Women at Racialicious

Between a Rock and a Hard Place: Triple Threats and Double Troubles for Muslim Women

by Racialicious special correspondent Fatemeh Fakhraie, originally published at Muslimah Media Watch

You’ve probably heard about the recent ruling given to a Saudi gang-rape victim: 110 lashes added onto the original sentence of 90 lashes because she protested her sentence to the media. It’s a horrible and vindictive sentence, and the callous treatment this woman has received as a victim is insulting to her, Saudi Arabia, and Islam.

Why Islam? What does her ruling have to do with Islam? Well, nothing really. Technically, the judge who sentenced her went by Shari’a law, but he added those extra lashes from his own judgment because she spoke out about her case. So he punished her.

But every reactionary blog poster, conservative news network, and Western women’s rights group has condemned this action as an Islamic one. So Muslim women around the world have a choice: do we defend ourselves against Islamophobia, against racism, or against misogyny?

This “triple threat” is one we often face as Muslim women (especially if we are also women of color). We always seem to be battling against one (or more) of these three issues: racism (for Muslim women who are also non-white), Islamophobia, or misogyny (not just from our own Muslim communities, but also from non-Muslim communities who think they know what’s best for us).

Being on the defensive all the time creates reactionary behavior. We always feel like we have to keep our guards up to defend our faith and our choices, and it gets tiring. Most Muslims don’t necessarily mind explaining stuff (that is, if you’re genuinely interested in understanding instead of starting an argument), but we can’t all be Encyclopedia Islamicas all the time.

Some of this “damage control” keeps us from having dialogues within our communities. Muslim women face a lot of problems within our communities as well as outside, but we’re afraid to talk about it because it can potentially be used against us. People in our own communities this power: for example, feminists in Iran are accused of being too “Westernized” by compatriots who have no interest in changing the status quo for women. Many women who seek their fair share are given this load of crap in order to guilt them into shutting up, because Westernization is equated with undesirable qualities in the Muslim world. Or, if we try to speak out to a non-Muslim audience, we are accused of “betraying” Islam or our communities by airing out our “dirty laundry.”

And this is a legitimate fear. We don’t want to reinforce negative ideas about Islam, Muslim men and women, or Muslims of any race. But if our own communities won’t listen to us or engage in a dialogue to raise awareness and potentially enact change (phew, a lot of buzzwords in there!), what else are we supposed to do?

Our voices can be used against us by a non-Muslim audience as well. Muslim women feel like we can’t use the word “oppression” because we’re always trying to counteract the stereotype that we’re all oppressed. Guess what? Forcing anything on someone else is oppression: that includes less-than-equal pay and sex appeal, not just headscarves. Not every woman of every faith, nationality, or ethnicity is 100% “not oppressed”, and we often fall into that category ourselves, just like every other woman on the planet.

The reason we can’t force ourselves to use the word “oppressed” is because we’re afraid of reinforcing those Orientalist assumptions that non-Muslims have about us. “Hijab isn’t always a choice for every Muslim woman on the planet? I KNEW it! You’re ALL oppressed!”

And with the explosion of literature about Islam and Muslims (much of it biased and incorrect), everybody who’s ever read an article or watched a special about Islam thinks they’re an expert. “I can’t believe that you only have one wife! I watched this special on CNN that said polygamy is rising in American Muslim communities!”

Being ignored/condemned by the Muslim community and ignored/condemned by the non-Muslim community is “double trouble” for Muslim women. This “double trouble” causes us to keep our mouths shut, leading everyone in Muslim community to think that there’s never anything wrong, and leading everyone in the non-Muslim community to think that we’re oppressed and can’t speak for ourselves. This is a problem as well, and it rears its ugly head when something like this 200 lashes thing comes up. It’s a veritable elephant in the room, and everyone’s waiting for us to talk about it. But if we think that our dialogue will be twisted, ignored, or condemned…why should we talk about it?

I’m writing this to—you guessed it—raise awareness and enact change. We have to talk instead of condemn. Muslim communities need to be willing to look at women’s issues as Islamic issues instead of Trojan horses of “evil” Westernization. Non-Muslim communities need to be willing to listen to what we have to say without judging our situation and accept that we know what’s best for ourselves.

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bastard.logic on 27 Nov 2007 at 6:37 pm

Paradox and Hypocrisy…

by matttbastard
Fatemeh Fakhraie examines the reaction garnered by the story of a female Saudi gang rape victim who was recently sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison. Fakhraie laments the no win situation Muslim women often find themselve…
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Comments

Rob Schmidt wrote:

As a non-Muslim, I’m listening. What position should I take on a woman’s being lashed 90 times for being gang-raped? I thought it was bad, but maybe I was wrong?

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 8:01 am ¶
Paul wrote:

Without judging your situation? How can you not condemn this sentence? A woman was raped repeatedly and she is to be publically whipped. That is an injustice to humanity. People need to speak and and condemn the Saudis and other fanatics for such actions. If we call people out for using sexist terminology, then we must castigate them for treating women as sub-humans.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 8:19 am ¶
Robin wrote:

Nowhere in this post do I see anyone saying the original sentence of 90 lashes is reasonable. The post is about how the condemnation of the additional sentence has been framed in the West in the context of “evil evil Islam” and not the arbitrary actions of a lone judge.

There’s lots that can be said about Sharia law and its impact on Muslim women. That’s not the true focus here. Did you actually read the post?

“This is a problem as well, and it rears its ugly head when something like this 200 lashes thing comes up. It’s a veritable elephant in the room, and everyone’s waiting for us to talk about it. But if we think that our dialogue will be twisted, ignored, or condemned…why should we talk about it?”

I think in this case the dialogue has been both twisted and ingnored. All in the space of two comments

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 11:36 am ¶
Katie wrote:

Please, people can you at least read what she’s saying? Your own agenda is so important to you that you’re silencing the voice of a Muslim woman.

Obviously she’s not saying the survivor’s sentence was a just or good thing.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 11:44 am ¶
Anonymous wrote:

i thought that it wasn’t a gang rape, she simply got into a car with a non-relative male? and then it wasn’t her that spoke out about her sentence, it was her lawyer. still, the end result was more punishment for her.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 1:05 pm ¶
Katie wrote:

Obviously not you, Robin.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 1:10 pm ¶
Fatemeh wrote:

Robin & Katie, thank you for understanding the point of the post and for standing up for it!

Let me reiterate what I said in the first paragraph: “It’s [the 200 lashes] a horrible and vindictive sentence, and the callous treatment this woman has received as a victim is insulting to her, Saudi Arabia, and Islam.”

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 1:14 pm ¶
nadia wrote:

great post fatemah. you really break down the obstacles we face when speaking. if we criticize our own group there are always people waiting to co-opt it for their own agenda and paint us as the good little a-rab/muslim who is smart enough to reject our barbaric culture and celebrate western culture.

do people realize that these attitudes actually directly impede to work we are doing in our communities? it is so paternalistic and dangerous for outsiders to always think they know better. like how feminists (namely the feminist majority) supported bombing afghanistan as a feminist action to “liberate” afghani women. would white feminists ever suggest bombing ANYTHING of theirs as a strategy for liberation?

if you haven’t seen it yet you might be interested in aaminah’s “why i am not a feminist.” your post also makes me think of that book, ‘food for our grandmothers,’ because it describes so much of what we are up against when attempting to speak up for ourselves and enact change in our communities (it has a specific focus on arab diaspora, but it’s definitely relevant to this discussion given the overlap and conflation of arab & muslim)).

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 1:17 pm ¶
Paul wrote:

“We need to talk instead of condemn.” As far as I understand, talking does not necessarily include a rebuke for inhuman conduct. Furthermore, the author equates unequal pay with lashing. Thus, she clearly isn’t coming down on the side of human rights on this issue.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 1:41 pm ¶
Not Anon wrote:

Fatemah: One difficulty to consider, which I just saw again here and in the great “Bougie” (?) posting as well (I think echoed by Wendi Muse or Latoya, I’m sorry for forgetting!).

It isn’t fair to be placed in the position as someone’s “encyclopedia” for cultural knowledge. But, whether from weary frustration, fear, anger, etc., it isn’t fair to paint everyone who asks/comments/compares/judges from a position of ignorance, misinformation, etc. with the same brush. It’s about the intent.

It’s tricky and unfair, but if the opportunity arises, I’d rather educate than perpetuate a negative image/impression. I should be able to determine bad intent vs. serious intent, and not act in a reactionary manner. When someone says “oh, you’re not like one of those xxx”, or tries to co-opt “the agenda”, or realizes the complexity and depth in issues that affect people they know, that’s the price paid. I’m not immune to such short-sightnedness, the trick is how to remove the brick from the wall.

Your phrase on oppression above said it beautifully, and I hope it is digested by people for its other implication: you can, in turn, do harm, through the “rightness” of your beliefs by ignoring the sincerity of those trying to connecting to you. Look and listen to where they are at and what they’re trying to say, however awkwardly…

FWIW: I just noticed media talking about the fact that the man the victim was with was raped too (not just beaten). So I am curious if the added punishment placed on the woman is retalliation..or a blanket/insurance for her silence against airing “dirty laundry” in a way, not about the system, but gender/sex beliefs maybe? I’m not sure how to say what I think, but I know it’s not an Islam thing at least.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 1:49 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

Paul: You misread. Fatemah did NOT say that physical punishment (in this case, likely an unofficial death sentence) was THE SAME as unequal pay.

Fatemah was talking about the fact that OPPRESSION as a concept can take many forms, and that there is no one definition of OPPRESSION.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 2:09 pm ¶
Samara wrote:

Fatemah,

Thank you so much for this post! It really puts words to everything I’ve been feeling, especially reading “feminist” white liberal blogs.

Salaam,

Samara

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 2:58 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:

Awesome post.

Okay, let me please break down this actual sentence, in case anyone cares… because most of the discussion of it is actually ignorant.

The victim was NOT sentenced for being raped. She was sentenced to the original 90 lashes for indecent behavior: i.e. she admitted that she had an inappropriate relation with a guy, got into a private car with the guy, and that they were partially undressed & beginning to engage in inappropriate acts. Was the 90 lashes justified for that? I can’t say, but I do think that if you look at it from the POV of another (such as her husband’s right to a faithful wife, the community’s right to not have lewd acts occurring, etc.) you might be able to see that she was not innocent and that the sentence had nothing to do with her as a rape victim.

The additional sentencing that was then done by the judge’s discretion is ridiculous. To punish a woman for saying she disagrees with her sentence is wrong and not Islamic. To punish a woman for seeking the support of others to address her grievences is ridiculous. To punish a woman for appealing her sentence and situation is ridiculous. And again, not actually Islamic.

So those who wish to frame this discussion around a woman being oppressed need to really look at the facts of the case, and also to separate it from being “Islamic justice” which it is not.

But also, they need to look at the oppression that they participate in and allow to go unchecked within their own lives and communities. For all those who want to “speak up for Muslim women”, we don’t need you to speak up for us. We can and do speak for ourselves. Please stop pushing your norms and POV as what we must also want. We may have some different ideas and values about what we want and need, and we are capable of expressing that for ourselves.

Nadia, thank you for the link. You are such a sweety. I hope that anyone who pops over takes the time to read some of my other posts too instead of judging me only on one thing… If they say they want to know and understand, it takes reading more than one post.

Fatemah, ukhti, I cannot wait to read more of your stuff inshaAllah. JazakAllah khair for this. Wasalaam.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 3:00 pm ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Hey Fatemeh -

Awesome post. Thanks for taking the time to outline the issues that arise, especially when talking about oppression.

It is very difficult to be in a discussion and see what you describe happening. A lot of times, I don’t how to respond, especially if there aren’t any Muslims or Muslimahs in the same space. I am not Muslim, so I do not want to speak for anyone else - but at the same time I know how I feel when I’m on …say, a white feminist blog, and assumptions get made about what women of color think or feel or what Muslim women need from Feminism. (Or, in the most recent example, that certain societal pressures ONLY apply to white women.) I feel off-balance when this happens - on one hand, I can watch these exchanges and feel compelled to say something. On the other hand, beyond saying “Just like Christianity has thousands of different intepretations, one interpretation of Islam (and islamic law) cannot speak for the whole faith” I don’t know what else I can do.

I had a question for you. I was going to send this offline, but maybe we should discuss it openly here.

I wonder what should non-muslims do to help.

I read Aaminah Hernández’s excellent post earlier today (Nadia linked to it up thread) and saw a specific point saying that “she did not need to be saved.” And it occurs to me, that’s what a lot of people think they are doing when they condemn Islam - helping to save the women who are “silenced and voiceless.” Noting that all of Islam isn’t like that tends to fall on deaf ears. The implication is “oh, you want to defend a religion that does XYZ to women?”

Hernández states in her post that the best way to help is to “stand back and let her do her thing” and provide back up as necessary. Cool, I can handle that.

But is there anything I can do when no one steps forward and the assumptions are rolling by unchallenged? (Or worse, when someone comes by and says they are “liberated” from Islam and they speak from a position of authority about how bad things are?)

Disapproving silence is woefully inadequate sometimes.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 3:15 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:

Hi Latoya,

I really hope to see what Fatemah says in response to your questions.

My response is that you are right, you shouldn’t feel silenced either when you think something might be wrong. You should feel free to say “that might not be the only perspective on that” or to ask “have you talked to actual practicing Muslims about that?” or “where did you get your information?”. You should feel free to say “hey, I’m not a Muslim woman so I really can’t speak to that, but what you’re saying doesn’t make sense to me/doesn’t sound like the whole story/sounds kinda like you take all your info from weird sources”. Why should everyone else be able to spew whatever they want and you feel that you can’t say anything just because you don’t have the authority? You have the right to share your thoughts too, even if it is only to plant the seed that something isn’t looking right or suggest that real Muslims and real Muslim women be brought into the discussion.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 4:18 pm ¶
Fatemeh wrote:

Salaams, and thanks to those who are getting it!

Aaminah, come visit us at Muslimah Media Watch; we do this stuff every day!!!

Not Anon–I understand what you mean about being open. While I don’t think it’s possible (or a good idea) for one Muslim to become the mouthpiece for ALL Muslim, it is a good idea to still try and dispel myths, while emphasizing the difference among us. Muslims’ individuality seems to get lost in the quest to clear our names.

Latoya–great question. What can non-Muslims do to help? I think I might make this a thread on my blog (which has more Muslim readers) and see what they think and get back to you. I agree with Aaminah that it’s better to provide back-up.
But when there are no Muslims around…well, let me give you an example. If an Islamophobic joke is told in a forest and there are no Muslims around to hear it, is it still Islamophobic? We appreciate allies to stick up for us in our absense, of course.

Sometimes the best course of action is to ask questions, kind of like the way to answer a racist joke that Carmen posted in New Demographics loooooong ago. If someone speaks as one who’s “Liberated” from Islam, ask them questions about their experience, about what gives them an authority to speak on issues like this, and whether they think that every Muslim has the same experiences they had.

Sisters, any other thoughts?

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 4:28 pm ¶
donna darko wrote:

Brave, difficult post. Thank you.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 4:36 pm ¶
QuestionThings wrote:

Aaminah (and Latoya): I don’t want to save you, so why assuming that anyone speaks out because that reason? — based on what, history? faith? skin color?

If group or person under attack, scrutiny, or the siege (I hate to must use words carefully) the “oppressed” must not get any license to make everyone walk on the eggshells, even the good people who mean well. You see enough badd people, should no difference?

Don’t mean sound harsh, but tired of all attitude saying (a) I can’t feel something like human for other, (b) I’m ignorant for I can’t/don’t understand what you feel and facts of situation, and when I seek answer you say “I’m off-limits, look it up”, (c) you won’t tell me what you’re feeling because I need somehow just already know it. Well I don’t, that’s why many of us ask and this all new to us.

Not about my need to know anything about you. It’s about people– you and me- drop stupid guess about why people asking stupid questions. Not always bad all times.

This bad judging case good example: There is no talk about women, religion, or sex in politics in US (but could be) if only focused on this case.Why? Because we don’t know how to look in mirror. And so many groups saying you do this…but don’t talk about my thing and don’t ask me about it. How’s anyone gonna know anything? Read a book I guess. That could be bad, thoguh
Believe me, you don’t need anybody, and want to stand alone, you be left alone, though there still be voices in your corner however much it annoy you. If you want good company, I think you will have voices, loud strone better ones, because you did not say no or bad words to them…

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 4:42 pm ¶
Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

Hey Fatemeh, I really like this post because I think that this issue of “airing our dirty laundry” is a problem across so many communities of color.

We absolutely need to look within and work on ourselves, but we’re worried that if we do that, and let others know, they’ll judge us for it and we’ll just allow ourselves to be bent to their agenda.

That’s why we end up with these absurdly polarized debates - the debate around hip hop is a good example of that.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 4:44 pm ¶
michelle wrote:

I remember when I was in college, this professor that I really idolized took on the practice of ritualized clitoredectemy (I butchered the spelling). Anyway, she spoke specifically about the practice as it had been reported about in West African civilizations. She posed the question, was it genital mutilization or the opportunity for some West african women to become what some cultures considered the ideal woman? It took me a long time to get what she was saying…essentially, our own Western norms, likes, dislikes should not define another cultures practices as “barbaric”. No matter how horrifying it seems.

It seems that the thing to do is to stand by and offer help when asked. In the meantime, respect the laws of another land. America has judges that take it upon themselves to send twelve year old black boys to jail. It would be nice if the whole world ganged up on the US for their racial injustice. However, where would outsiders draw the line at judging and determining what’s best?

It is hard. The knee jerk reaction is “90 lashes for infedelity? What is wrong with those people?”. I fight against my knee jerk reaction because it won’t help anyone in the long term. Especially people who have not asked for my “help” or “judgement”.

Thanks for this post and discussion. I look forward to more discussions along this line.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 5:24 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:

QuestionThings, the best answer I can give you is to suggest you read an earlier post on my blog at http://writeoussisterspeaks.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/listen/

You seem to have totally misunderstood what I have said. I don’t want to be repetitive, but the key points you should consider are:

1) Too often people say they are asking questions innocently, but in most cases, they are actually starting arguments. Honestly, if I am asked a question by an average of 5 people a week (I’m just using simple numbers), 4 of them turn out to be asking so that they can then argue with me, mock me, or prosteletize to me.
2) Too often people believe that they are asking questions innocently but then are upset by the answers. They want the answer to fit into their experience or what they heard/read elsewhere. They want it to be simple, and often the answer isn’t that simple and that bothers people.
3) I’m not saying don’t approach me. I am approached constantly. What I am saying is don’t approach me disrespectfully with the desire to ask me just so you can then knock it down, and don’t expect that I have nothing better to do than to explain everything to you. I am not an encyclopedia you are pulling off the shelf. I am a human being who has a life and cannot spend all my time trying to clarify everything for you.
3a) Don’t make me the only Muslim you talk to and expect me to speak for everyone. I can only give you my experience and my understanding. It probably isn’t the whole story. If you genuinely want to understand, you need to be open to the diversity of experience and opinions.
4) Yes, you should do your own research. If you need to ask me for good resources, feel free. The problem is that even when I offer other resources, few people check them out. They just take the quick answer they got from me and run with it. That’s not sincere questionning. It is not hard to find quality information on Muslims these days. While there is alot of misinformation out there, there is alot of accurate stuff too. For example, anyone who reads my blog and has questions, there is a whole list of links to “Essential Islamic Resources” that are high-quality sites with accurate information. But I check my site stats and can tell you: almost no one clicks on those links.

As to not speaking for me, that really is a key. There is a big difference between stepping up and saying that someone is being offensive or giving out incorrect information about Muslims and answering for me. The problem arises that someone says “well, I read…”, “I heard…”. What you would be better saying is “I’m not sure, but there was something I saw… I don’t know how accurate it is…”. You can point people to real resources. You can just suggest “why don’t we ask a Muslim or Muslim woman to give us her take on this”. And more importantly, when we are participating in the conversation, don’t negate everything we say or try to disprove it.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 6:14 pm ¶
Mimi wrote:

Out of curiosity, are the lashings spread out? My guess is that 200 lashings would kill a person, 90 might be merely disfiguring. Old images of horribly scarred slaves keep ghosting in my mind. I’m definitely not saying the circumstances are the same, but the mental and physical connections of bearing that much pain. It is easier to say 90 lashes is appropriate when you really, truly don’t think about what that means.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 6:30 pm ¶
voodooflaneur wrote:

I’m sorry but everyone here seem to have left islam off the hook. The reason this woman is being treated that way has everything to do with islam. Have any of you read the koran? It’s as bad as the bible. Religion is the greatest cause of trouble in our world. There seem to be a bipolar sort of reasoning that religious people manage to navigate through. Where their “sacred” book says one thing and they try to justify it by saying that it doesn’t. We make excuses for these delusional people who are out to destroy our world based on some fantasy . Monotheistic religion does not like women or people of color. The mormons did not accept Blacks until they were force to. The bible kept slavery going by making the masters feel that god is on their side. It’s surprising that there are not more women unbelievers especially women of color. Read Hirsi Ali book. Check out the BBC news online about this british teacher who is arrested for letting a small child in her class named a teddy bear after mohhamed. Break the this vicious cycle!

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 9:32 pm ¶
Fatemeh wrote:

Uhhhhhhhh…voodooflaneur? You’re blaming religions for stuff that people do. It’s like that slogan about guns: guns don’t kill people, people do. While I usually hate that slogan, it has some truth here. Islam itself doesn’t kill anyone or mistreat anyone. The MISAPPLICATION and MISINTERPRETATION of religions by human adherents is the problem, not the religion itself.

Just because you take away monotheistic religions doesn’t mean you’ll take away patriarchy. Remember Ancient Greece? They were polytheistic, and women were not considered citizens.

Posted 27 Nov 2007 at 11:06 pm ¶
nadia wrote:

hmmm, aaminah, i think the fact that the woman was punished for her pre-assault actions to have something to do with her rape. the threat of punishment often means that sexual violence goes unreported. she was not punished for being raped, but she is still a rape victim who received punishment. i don’t think it’s appropriate to physically punish a rape victim.

michelle, what you are talking about here [”essentially, our own Western norms, likes, dislikes should not define another cultures practices as “barbaric”. No matter how horrifying it seems.”] is called cultural relativism. and genital mutilation really is violently misogynistic and barbaric. that is why so many muslim women fight tirelessly to end it. in addition to the problem of people who hate us co-opting our intra-community criticism to use against us, there is also this problem of people outside our communities who want to be allies and thus excuse every piece of criticism we receive with, “that’s just their culture.” in both situations, WE are the ones who get hurt, the only difference is that one group is well-meaning while the other is clear in it’s ill intentions.

and omg voodooflaneur, you do not want to come up in here suggesting that we read ayaan hirsi ali. for real. i’m an athiest too (but not the type who turns athiesm into my new religion), and hirsi ali has too many sweet things to say about christianity for her to be any kind of athiest. if you want to know what i, and plenty of other muslim/brown women think of her, click here.

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 1:06 am ¶
luckyfatima wrote:

Fatemeh you said precisely what needs to be said and seriously all th0se who misread your post and jumped on the situation in Saudi are EXACTLY what the problem is spelled out right here in plain English in the comments section…it just seriously makes me want to SCREAAAMM! AAAAAAAAAH! And I think most Muslim women who interact with non-Muslims on a regular basis get this all the time, constantly!

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 1:20 am ¶
anon wrote:

The victim was NOT sentenced for being raped. She was sentenced to the original 90 lashes for indecent behavior: i.e. she admitted that she had an inappropriate relation with a guy, got into a private car with the guy, and that they were partially undressed & beginning to engage in inappropriate acts. Was the 90 lashes justified for that? I can’t say, but I do think that if you look at it from the POV of another (such as her husband’s right to a faithful wife, the community’s right to not have lewd acts occurring, etc.) you might be able to see that she was not innocent and that the sentence had nothing to do with her as a rape victim.

You are taking as absolutely true the official pap produced by an official policy organ, ignoring the protests of actual Saudi women, and demanding the silencing a victim of rape on the way there. Seriously reconsider the way you’re thinking about this.

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 1:47 am ¶
donna darko wrote:

Melinda made helpful points about this at Muslimah Media Watch:

When women speak out against sexism in Muslim communities or countries, the non-Muslim reaction is that this is yet another example of that screwed-up religion, Islam.

Second, there’s the tendency of the Muslim communities in countries like the United States to brush aside the idea of oppression in Islam.

I think we, and I mean everyone, have to go beyond this binary.

The bottom line is that it’s neither as simple as “Islam bad, West good” nor “Islam good, West bad.” And for that, education and dialogue are essential.

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 2:35 am ¶
Rob Schmidt wrote:

I don’t know about anyone else, but I read what Fatemeh wrote. Specifically, I read where she wrote, “We have to talk instead of condemn.” Therefore, I asked if I was wrong to judge the lashings as bad. My question followed logically from Fatemeh’s words.

Should we condemn the lashings or shouldn’t we? I’d say we should. We can condemn them and THEN talk about the related issues. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 10:27 am ¶
Rob Schmidt wrote:

Fatemeh also wrote, “Non-Muslim communities need to be willing to listen to what we have to say without judging our situation and accept that we know what’s best for ourselves.” So the sentence was horrible and vindicative, but don’t condemn or judge the situation. Does that about sum up Fatemeh’s position? Perhaps I’m misreading it, or perhaps she isn’t writing as clearly as she could be.

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 10:38 am ¶
Rob Schmidt wrote:

Incidentally, I compiled a long posting about Western misunderstandings of Islam after 9/11 (http://www.bluecorncomics.com/islam.htm). I mention this because it never would occur to me to blame all of Islam for the lashings.

The problem Fatemeh raises is the stereotyping of Muslims as people who whip, denigrate, and oppress women. The solution is to note that only a tiny percentage of Muslims engage in this behavior.

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 10:47 am ¶
Rob Schmidt wrote:

P.S. People don’t kill people. Gods who tell people what to do kill people.

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 10:51 am ¶
Chuck wrote:

Call in and check out our interview tonight at 8PM EST with Dr. Paul L. Williams, author of The Day of Islam at thirdrailradio.com

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 10:51 am ¶
Paul wrote:

The authors arguments remind me of those in the Jim Crow South or Apartheid South Africa: This’ our way of operating and you all aren’t sinless, so leave us alone.

People who care about human rights need to draw lines in regard to acceptable behaviors. I wonder if many of the commenters here would support the execution of Emett Till because he was breaking the societal norms of the era and place?

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 10:53 am ¶
Latoya Peterson wrote:

Rob -

I read Fatemeh’s piece and see that the lashing ruling was her lead into the larger article: why Islam is continuously villified and linked to the actions of people who would bend the word to their will.

Notice what she said about the lashing specifically:

“It’s a horrible and vindictive sentence, and the callous treatment this woman has received as a victim is insulting to her, Saudi Arabia, and Islam.”

But she’s generally lamenting how if something happens and Islam is involved, people don’t look at the sitation - they automatically assume that all Muslims condone that behavior. And then, Muslim women are caught in the situation she describes above.

QuestionThings -

I see what you are getting at.

However, I think a person could have nothing but the best intentions at heart and STILL fuck up. That happens. We all have prejudices. However, a lot of times we are blind to them, or we rationalize them away. So when we think we are helping to solve a problem or being helpful to someone else, we may actually be doing more harm than good.

I see people who are trying to “help” mess up all the time. Hell, I fuck up all the time. So while your heart may be in the right place, I don’t see anything wrong with treading kind of lightly when attempting to help. Kind of like the Hippocratic Oath - first, do no harm.

Voodoo - I always see religion as a tool, kind of like a knife. It can be used to stab people, sure. But it also helps to feed people and free people. I am not religiously affiliated (I am currently exploring) but keep in mind a lot of people stopped a lot of destructive behavior by finding faith.

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 11:00 am ¶
Not Anon wrote:

Aaminah & Fatemeh: Thoughtful responses, especially your frustrations with all the questions! Wanted to go back to Fatemah’s original post, but Wendi Muse’s response to Tami’s story makes me want to adjust my thoughts into something a little bit larger if you’ll permit.

People will view you *only* as one of three things (re Fatemah’s opening), rarely as a combination because it’s hard. When it’s a man or woman, you get dumb questions that assume gender ideas and age; a different faith, dumb questions assuming what you wear; and a different nationality based on how you look. Not malicious, though annoying. If you say when you’re open to sharing *because* you’re a complex you, it helps.

Not to sound like a gum commercial Aaminah (-:, but 4 out 5 people can’t speak for the 5th person, only four individuals. None of them would know what punches your buttons as an individual, so I catch myself doing the same thing. If I’m not in the mood I disengage, but it’s not fair to judge their lack of awareness against my bad experiences, and my bad experiences with some as representing the whole (unless it’s a group of people at the same time).

A challenge was once explained to me like this. I may literally be the only one of “me” one of “them” may ever meet. However unfair it is to me to bear that burden, the same goes for them. I’m not some ambassador, but I do represent my nationality, faith, ethnicity, etc. in everything I do. Whatever impression gets left in a chance encounter, that’s what gets spread.

What PoC forget is that in answering everybody else’s questions, they definitely earned the right to ask a whole bunch of others.

The next time you’re asked something, get to know more about who’s asking what of you by engaging in real dialogue and asking about them not just why they want to know about you. You aren’t aiming for friends, but it can help lower the suspicion level a great deal on all sides…

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 1:34 pm ¶
Orodemniades wrote:

Hello, I came across this post from, er, someplace else, but I forget where.

Anyhoo, I just wanted to say, as someone who’s been horrified by this sentence and has posted about it somewhat on my blog, that for me the original Sharia element, the 90 lashes for meeting the fellow (whom I understand is an ex ‘boyfriend’?) is over the top. The next 110 is…to me it’s inhumane.

I don’t believe it’s condemning Islam to say that I find both sentences outrageous and if this occurred within the outer framework of any other religion I’d be equally outraged.

I guess I’m trying to say that I hope that in mentioning and linking (albeit along with other stuff) about this case that I haven’t inadvertently done the Islam-is-teh-evilist! thing…I don’t think I have, but then, I’m not Muslim…

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 8:53 pm ¶
Orville wrote:

The writer of this article makes a very interesting statement that it is “tiring” to constantly educate people. Audre Lorde talked about the oppressed constantly having to teach the oppressor about prejudice and bigotry in her book “Sister Outsider”. I think I get an understanding of the writer of the article is trying to say about “Double Trouble” of encountering hostility within the private and public spheres. I think writing this article will definitely get a dialogue going on this issue.

I was also wondering what does the writer of this article think of Canadian lesbian feminist Irshad Manji’s book “The Trouble With Islam”? Do you think Irshad is doing something positive by being a muslim woman challenging the status quo? Irshad is a muslim woman and also an out lesbian she’s very outspoken about misogyny in muslim communities. However, I’ve also read information that some muslims in Canada don’t take Irshad or her work very seriously. I think there is another muslim feminist she’s also a writer and American she has spoken out about sexism in the muslim community. However, I have noticed that Irshad doesn’t really speak about the double standards of mainstream society has about muslim women.

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 10:22 pm ¶
Orville wrote:

I could be wrong and if someone can correct me then definitely do it. My interpretation of the writer of this article is trying to say is that the Western media is looking for “extreme” cases of violence against Muslim women.

Women in the west encounter violence as well. Does anyone recall the case about the young black woman that was beaten and raped, and brutally abused I think her name was Megan Williams? The violence had taken place right within the USA and the USA media just brushed the story off and basically have ignored it. They reported it and moved on.

I think the Western media is looking for the “extreme cases” of misogyny and not presenting other perspectives or sides to Muslims women. So the only image we have of Muslim women is that they are “oppressed”. And I think that is what is considered “frustrating” because Muslim women are framed in one way and one way only. Isn’t that kind of racist of the Western media too? Where are the positive stories about muslim women making change in their communities?

We know there is misogyny in Saudi Arabia women cannot even drive a car in that country. I think the writer of the article is trying to say that some women in Saudi Arabia do not feel “oppressed” they love their religion and people. I also get the sense that the writer of the article doesn’t agree with Western style feminism that is Eurocentric, at times racist, and essentalist.

Posted 28 Nov 2007 at 10:29 pm ¶
luckyfatima wrote:

Gah!…what happened in Saudi is enraging. ..I do not condone it or many other things that occur in Saudi in any way, nor do I apologize for them. I am a Muslim, I cover my hair, wear long clothes, I pray, I read the Quran regularly, I practice basic Islamic guidelines about both the mundane and the spiritual in my life. And I DO NOT agree with much of anything that goes on in Saudi Arabia. Most Muslims don’t. Many Saudis don’t. I also reject the idea that Saudi law is Shari’ah based. Shari’ah is not fully tangible, it is an evolving and set of interpretative guidelines. ..there is no one book that is called “The Shari’ah” containing a comprehensive and unchanging list of laws. In Saudi, so-called Shari’ah is used to maintain the power base of a male elite in an extremely patriarchal society. Many cultural beliefs are intertwined with the way the Saudi version of Shari’ah is executed…beliefs about women not appearing in public spaces, not driving, etc. are called “Shari’ah” but they are NOT MY Shari’ah. Saudi is just one Muslim country and most Muslims do not practice their Islam the way Saudi Shari’ah outlines. I don’t. No one around me in the majority Muslim environment in which I live does. So…

Why should any random Muslim Joe, or Jamila or Jamal on the street have to answer for what goes on in a country that we are not from, for laws that we don’t believe in, are not governed by, and do not follow?We are not acritical. But we shouldn’t have to constantly answer, especially because as pointed out above, the askers are often being facetious and just trying to start shit. They are not really interested in understanding anything.

Posted 29 Nov 2007 at 2:18 am ¶
Paul wrote:

Orville:
1. The Saudi incident is state-sponsored brutality, while those acts of violence in the West are invidually undertaken and illegal.

2. Are you sure that you want to use the Gone With the Wind happy slave argument in regard to Saudi women? Of course the majority of people who are brutalized will not speak out against a system that punishes dissent with death.

Posted 29 Nov 2007 at 8:05 am ¶
Orville wrote:

The brtual discrimination against Saudi women is disgusting and wrong. I am totally against violence against women and I don’t appreciate you making the egregious assumption.

Western society also has serious problems with misgoyny and male domination. I thik the writer of the article is saying that the Western media is seeking out extreme examples of misogyny and stereotyping an entire community, Misogyny is not just specific to the muslim world it occurs everywhere and it is wrong.

Posted 29 Nov 2007 at 12:26 pm ¶
Rob Schmidt wrote:

Latoya,

I’m down with (what I perceive as) Fatemeh’s core message not to stereotype or judge Islam, in general. I just wouldn’t have led with a worst-case scenario to make this argument.

When I write about Native Americans, I say things like, “There are 560-plus tribes in the US, so don’t stereotype or judge Indians based on one tribe’s practices.” I don’t say, “The Aztecs sacrificed people and ate their hearts, but don’t stereotype or judge Indians based on these practices.” The natural reaction to this would be, “Why shouldn’t I condemn Indians? Isn’t sacrificing and eating people a bad thing?”

Posted 29 Nov 2007 at 3:47 pm ¶
Safiya wrote:

Typical, LuckyFatima, makes a statment which sums up how the vast majority of Muslim women feel about this issue and gets completely ignored.

If you are really concerned about Muslim women, why don’t you try actually listening to us.

This is meant to be a progressive open-minded site and yet when it comes to Muslim women, we still get the same shoddy treatment as elsewhere on the net.

Posted 29 Nov 2007 at 4:49 pm ¶
Fatemeh wrote:

Rob, you’ve gotten to the problem with your analogy: “Why shouldn’t I condemn Indians? Isn’t sacrificing and eating people a bad thing?”

Why condemn Indians? Why not just condemn the “sacrificing and eating people” thing? You make a link between Indians and sacrificing as if it’s inherent to Indian-ness, and all Indians do it. Maybe this is a better example: “Timothy McVeigh bombed Oklahoma City. Why shouldn’t I condemn white people? Isn’t bombing a building a bad thing?”

This is what I”m talking about. People aren’t condemning the ACTION, they’re condemning US. ALL of us.

Posted 30 Nov 2007 at 1:20 am ¶
Not Anon wrote:

Safiya: LuckyFatima made two great points (26 and 40), so perhaps there was simply nothing to say or they were busy. She, nor you, commented on other posts yet either– did you have nothing to say? (-:

It is not a test of “progressiveness” or “tolerance”, but a difficult set of issues that are new, where people are still not sure how they should speak– and such challenges do not help ease the comfort if you truly want more people to speak.

So will this demonstrate more examples of distrust in action? I know you and others must be conditioned to respond to non-Muslims and our dumbass questions with suspicion… and you don’t owe us a thing.

All I’m saying is just for a moment,
can you also see how viewing all of *us* constantly with suspicion only serves to make *you* objects of suspicion too? We’re not all the same, and unless you can relay to another person that boundary between good and bad intentions– again it’s about you as individuals and your comfort level, not being representatives of your faiths, countries, etc– no one unfamiliar with any of this will know.

It’s awful having to deflect every approach of a stranger because you cannot trust anyone, I’m getting and how it makes you and others feel. What I don’t get is whether you actually want it to go away, or just want to deal with it, or want others to be aware of it?…

Posted 30 Nov 2007 at 11:52 am ¶
Safiya wrote:

Not Anon - I’m not sure what you mean about not commenting on other posts, I have commented on this site before.

I just get so frustrated with the thinking displayed by some on this site and others, i.e
I am not Muslim, I would not want to be Muslim as I think it sounds bad = these poor women should be saved from Islam.

No matter what we say, we are labelled as apologists and patronised.

I what I want is obvious: acceptance and respect, which is the same as what most people want.

I do not view everyone with suspicion and I’m quite open to explaining myself.

The frustration is that this website is meant to have a better standard of discourse then elsewhere, but the same old mistakes are happening in the comments section and those making them are not able or unwilling to see this.

I come here to challenge my preconceptions and to see other’s points of view. Although I’m a regular reader, I don’t comment much here, because as a white, Brit, a lot of the posts are outside my frame of reference, so here I listen more then I speak, that way I might actually learn something.

I would really recommend some of the commenters on this post do the same

Posted 30 Nov 2007 at 12:38 pm ¶
Not Anon wrote:

Safiya: I was referring to this particular thread, not comments on others, as you were specifically referring LuckyFatimah in this context.. Thanks for the clarifications though– it helps when knowing which groups are the target of one’s frustrations rather than all the general stuff.

And to be fair, it doesn’t appear that everyone one this go round has been aiming for mere provocation, have they? Even so, those that have may reflect something larger that can’t be ignored, however buggy…

Posted 30 Nov 2007 at 12:55 pm ¶
nadia wrote:

“This is what I”m talking about. People aren’t condemning the ACTION, they’re condemning US. ALL of us.”

no fatemah, rob was taking issue with how you presented the argument. according to his analogy, you should have said, “there are x number of muslims and we’re all different so don’t condemn us all,” instead of, i guess, pointing to a specific example of an unfair punishment of a muslim woman and explaining how we are at a triple disadvantage when attempting to combat these issues in the context of american xenophobia against muslims, in the eloquent way you did. because apparently he knows better how muslim women should talk about our culture and our mistreatment both within and outside of it. it has been really interesting to see the responses of liberal people of color to muslim issues on this blog—safiya, you called it.

not anon, where do i begin? if this is a new set of issues that people don’t know how to speak on, why are there so many people wanting to tell US how to speak to them about it? i think people know exactly how they want to speak about it–the same way mainstream media and politicians do.

can *you* see that all of us are already viewed as objects of suspicion??? hello? the patriot act, extra checks in the airport, “patriots” calling the cops on us for doing things like speaking our languages, praying, wearing traditional clothes, or just being. i mean really, that was a silly thing to say. we’re supposed to worry about how we approach ya’ll when the entire american legal/political system is out to get us? we are objects of suspicioun from jump; WE are not the ones responsible for that, and it won’t go away if we start letting every non-muslim use us as a vessel through which to work out their issues. thanks for the tip, but have you ever seen this work for any other group in the history of the world? this is NOT about us as individuals, it is INSTITUTIONAL, and trying to reduce it to a personal issue makes it easier on you and also ensures that nothing will really change for us.

it’s also really annoying how muslim women keep repeatedly answering questions and sharing information, and yet consistently get pacified with this, “i know, you shouldn’t be the spokesperson for your culture, it’s unfair, etc” and then get hit with the condescending and mean assertion that they aren’t sharing information in the right way, they aren’t being sweet enough about it, and that’s fine if they don’t want to be the spokesperson but how do they expect non-muslims to learn anything? so far, i haven’t seen anyone take issue with providing information from their personal experience (NOT being a spokesperson because we are real individuals with nuanced experiences) … the thing is that certain people aren’t listening, and if it’s not said in the super special sweet and perfect way that they want to hear it in, these certain people ignore what’s being said.

Posted 30 Nov 2007 at 5:44 pm ¶
Not Anon wrote:

Nadia: So basically you’re under constant scrutiny from every non-Muslim and you wish to be left alone. That’s worked well for any group in the history of the world?

Respect. Check. It starts by not assuming everyone else is beneath you or completely clueless or an idiot. Being left alone from all obnoxious crap– as which a woman?, person of faith?, or person of color/ethnicity?– not so easy, and again, sorry for it and not being insincere here.

But not everyone is responsible for it. And your language/means/mode of express, no problem with and never said so. Why bother even to throw that in? Unnecessary. Said before and said again– if you’re off-limits and uncomfortable, fine. Do it precisely because you’re a person.

But to turn around and say to everyone, as you just did, “stupid question” or “you should just know better”– doesn’t solve a damn thing, but demonstrates plenty without saying anything. Great, you put me in my place. What about the next person you run into.?

Ain’t going to know your business or your backstory, or that you’ve been asked the same question four times earlier. You want to put that on everyone you meet to just somehow *know* everything by going off and reading or suffering your insults if they haven’t before meeting you is foolish, haughty, and unreasonable.

I know you can speak for yourself, so don’t lump me in with everyone you keep referring to the “us”, who is a monolith of clueless liberal patriotic idiots– I’m sure they’ll be insulted enough on their own since making assumptions about who is persecuting or speaking for you makes you feel better.

I know why you’ve seen the worst in many, but I don’t understand why you would actually seem to assume the worst in most. Your bias will confirm whatever you’re looking hardest for.

And I have no problem with you serving your words to me in as raw or “sour” a manner as you wish– never even said anything about it now that I look again. I was taught that one has to swallow what one says in turn eventually, so say whatever you wish straight and clear however you need to.

Posted 30 Nov 2007 at 9:22 pm ¶
watchwatch wrote:

Just caught the tail end of this great chat and throwing in that I worked for many years with one of *those* organizations fighting for *both* the civil liberties *and* human rights freedoms of individuals *and* organizations across the political spectrum pre- and post-9/11. Note to Nadia et al. and Non Anon– it sucks for *everyone* and no one gets the monopoly on victimhood here, after what I’ve seen and heard.

Key US citizen rights go bye-bye overnight, and this makes folks happy, because it’s supposed to create empathy. Wrong, because it assumes all citizens knew and used their rights before. And PATRIOT etc. is the least of your worries: it’s other citizens. Same govt. you had prior to 9/11, you have post 9/11, but it’s the people who’ve been armed with more tools, power, and authority without accountability and any administration or elected official that defers to them that will punish you. Citizen rights eroded without elected officials understanding the law much less its impact due as much to expediency and fear and confusion.

Shake my head at sheer volume of watch lists, wiretaps, email sniffs, neighbor tips, etc. that have nothing to do with Muslims due to new McCarthyism. You have no idea, and I hope you never do. Dumb question to your face = benefit of seeing the source of your torment.

Two things: we can be bigoted, ignorant, clueless, and abusive as any society; or any society of individuals reflects bigoted, ignorant, clueless, and abusive values, beliefs, attitudes, and/or practices.

I wouldn’t be so quick to leap to– or even have a discussion about– institution or individual “responsibilities” or “loyalities” or “identities” unless one knows which of those two streams one follows.

One glimmer of hope a la Curtis Mayfield: if there is hell below we’re all going to go. I just hope we all wake up smelling our asses burning off soon before we lose those too.

Mob rules, screaming, intransigence, arrogance, and self-righteous pride prevents progress. Back to your shouting match…

Posted 01 Dec 2007 at 3:51 pm ¶
Fire Fly wrote:

Not Anon, Islamophobia is old, and so is the tone argument.

Instead of checking Muslim women for their tone, for their willingness to please, how about your tone, and your willingness to listen?

It’s some offensive obfuscation when you compare Muslim women’s weariness with being everyone else’s vessel with institutionalised and state-sponsored Islamophobia.

Posted 01 Dec 2007 at 10:07 pm ¶
NiceHSChic wrote:

Hi everyone,

I’ve read this discussion with great interest and admittedly much confusion and fear. I mean this with all the sincerity: what exactly in the hell are you people trying to say?

Don’t make a lick of sense when you follow everything out from the top because I don’t see the charges the “sides” are slinging at one another. I do see some great points that people are misreading and taking as attacks (maybe on purpose?) , and then forming “sides”. I also see those “sides” not answering each others questions.

If all of you (well most of you) would stop for three minutes, listen or read, and pay more attention to what each other is actually trying to say, instead of what they aren’t, you would’ve seen something and learn something really good.

But no! Everyone lets your ego and emotions run wild and gets the better of you, the minute someone challenges you, and let the shouting drown out anything from reaching your ears and hearts. That’s insane. My teachers and parents are right, no wonder nothing ever gets solved overseas!!

We learned in class that dialogue means people talking with each other about stuff because they’re willing to share and interested to listen. It doesn’t mean yelling at each other because you think your thing is more right or more important and then not wanting to hear what anyone else has to say.

We get enough lectures we have to sit through from people with too many opinions who don’t know it all because their heads are up their butts. Be nice to know that isn’t true here.

If you adults are as smart and “progressive” as you want to be, go back to the top, take the hands off your ears and eyes, and pay really close attention to what each other was saying and all and stop reading things into each others words for things to attack each other with. That’s really annoying, cheap, and just gets old after while and my teacher would’ve kept you after class for follow-up lessons to make sure you all behave and get your points across better by listening and playing nice.

Posted 02 Dec 2007 at 10:58 am ¶
Safiya wrote:

NiceHSChic - “My teachers and parents are right, no wonder nothing ever gets solved overseas!!”

What exactly do you mean by that?

Watchwatch - Thank you for letting us know no one has the monopoly on victimhood. I’m sorry if stating our individual perceptions was seen as a mere ploy for ‘victim status’.

Finally, I’ve read many discussions here and yet I think this one has the most complaints about tone.

I guess the stereotype of the meek, mild Muslim woman really is an all pervading one.

Posted 02 Dec 2007 at 6:32 pm ¶
Aaminah wrote:

Asalaamu alaikum Safiya,

You know what it is ukhti, these people who have a vested interest in the idea that Muslim women are quiet. They can say they are progressive, but it’s the same old thing. ;)They got a lot of nerve talking about any Muslim woman’s “tone” not being acceptable or how we need to “listen” to them. We’ve been listening to their crap for centuries and they can’t shut up and listen for one thread? SubhanAllah.

Posted 03 Dec 2007 at 1:14 pm ¶
nadia wrote:

“They got a lot of nerve talking about any Muslim woman’s “tone” not being acceptable or how we need to “listen” to them. We’ve been listening to their crap for centuries and they can’t shut up and listen for one thread?”

FOR REAL.

Posted 03 Dec 2007 at 3:29 pm ¶
mnemosyne wrote:

Great post! Not barring the way that Muslim women have recently become the lens through which culture wars (and racial wars, religious wars and war wars) are being fought, non-Muslims who are criticizing the enactment of “Islamic law” in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere need to keep in mind that law is always law and it is always political. I would also point out that there are many Christians in the US who condemn homosexuality and this has definitely led to acts of violence and political oppression in the US. Would most Americans consider these acts Christian? Then why be so ready to attack Islam, in and of itself, as the cause of abuse against women in the Middle East, and elsewhere in the Muslim world? Can’t we also see that this behaviour (and law) is an interpretation, or misinterpretation, by certain groups who have power? We must condemn the manipulation and abuse of human rights…not simply attack Islam or women who are being forced to “represent” a certain view of it.

Posted 03 Dec 2007 at 5:42 pm ¶
annalouise wrote:

I think something that I, as a white feminist, try to keep in mind when talking about these incidents of sexism is to not think of them as ‘exotic’ or unique or foreign.
A rape victim is beaten because her behavior before her rape doesn’t conform with sexist ideas about acceptable female behavior.
A young woman is raped and murdered, but she brought it on herself because of her immoral sexual behavior.
A young woman is raped and tortured but that doesn’t let her off the hook for property crime
A woman is abused and beaten by her boyfriend but when she calls the cops she is deported
Women escape rape and torture in Zimbabwe only to be raped and tortured by British prison guards
A 13 yr old boy is raped and kidnapped and because of it his family is getting deported

again and again and again victims of sexual violence are revictimized by the legal system.

What’s funny, or not at all funny, is that in so many of these cases I have heard the same white liberal feminists who are outraged about barbaric muslims and their treatment of rape victims actually defend the legal system! “The laws the law” they say.

Posted 06 Dec 2007 at 12:02 pm ¶
Muslimah American wrote:

Why are we constantly seeing Islam through the lens of the west? Muslims turn the camera around!!!!! Stop apologizing and sugar coating. And stop saying something is a “misinterpretation” if it doesn’t mesh with what the west sees as correct. So Muslims if it is in the Holy Quran or the Sunnah and this society doesn’t like it today, then you won’t either? I am no where near a scholar so I can’t say what the punishment for lewdness is but why isn’t anyone defending what God has said in our Holy book for the punishment for anything?
There are punishments for many things in the holy book none of which are seen as just in this society today. A mans mind about what is justice and fair and freedom is not superior over what God says is justice, fair and freedom. In that case humans would not have to keep changing laws and forms of government. Man is imperfect and unless guided will forever search. God is perfect and has settled the matter.

Posted 29 Dec 2007 at 4:27 am ¶