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1. Fantasy Model»Blog Archive » Shanghai Surprise on 20 Nov 2007 at 6:22 pm

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1. gatamala wrote:

   It is beyond a doubt that this show has jumped the shark.

   It would have been more “ethnic” if the CEO of Lenovo had jumped out & juggled ThinkPads.

   Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 10:32 am ¶

2. Momo wrote:

   I see your point but honestly it wasn’t THAT bad ….I mean I can think of plenty of ways that scene could have gone over board same with cycle 4….yes they had them pose as animals …and???sometimes models have to do that…Africa is known for its wonderful wild life…nothing wrong with that…but again I can think of ways that they could have taken that scene over board as well..but they didn’t !!! in short what ANTM did was not that serious. So Tyra added in some culture flare…Gongs are a Chinese instrument…I bet if she played any kind traditional chinese instruments in the background it would still offend somebody. But to be on your side a little I thought the two Martial artist were a bit too much…..but then again why? Martial Arts is apart of Chinese culture… also I think as long as shows like these are done tastefully its not that big of a dealand to me ANTM was done tastefully… but of course thats just my opinion =)

   Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 11:06 am ¶

3. j.mai wrote:

   To the credit of ANTM (or to contestants themselves) in cycle 6 I warmed up to Joanie after she showed so much respect for Thai culture… not just learning the obligatory ’sawadee kha’ but for being conscious of customs of modesty while being hung upside down in a fish net!

   Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 11:16 am ¶

4. Daomadan wrote:

   I’m horrified by what is coming up. I heard they appropriate Beijing Opera costumes and dress up while posing on the Great Wall.

   Oh Lordy…

   Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 12:39 pm ¶

5. Vgirl wrote:

   I’m glad to see that someone else takes pop culture’s representations seriously. Did you catch the ANTM episode where the models,
   transported to South Africa for photo shoots and fun, are asked to dance…with male models dressed in loin cloths…after learning “traditional” dances? I particularly enjoyed the elimination where I had to watch Janis Dickinson “get down” while smiling Africans (no regional or ethnic distinctions provided) drummed.

   While ANTM continues to keep its hand on the pulse of international culture, another show is shaping American’s perceptions of race and class. Extreme Makeover Home Edition does more to damage people’s perceptions of American poverty and, more importantly, to the solution to the problem than even the current administration. My favorite episode, no joke: The Brown Family.
   http://herstoryhistorybolg.blogspot.com/2007/10/everyone-lov

   Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 1:28 pm ¶

6. gatamala wrote:

   Africa is known for its wonderful wild life It’s also known for having people [sans flies, distended bellies & AK-47s].

   I live in America, we’ve got wonderful wildlife too, but they don’t seem to make Vogue.

   but again I can think of ways that they could have taken that scene over board as well..but they didn’t !!!

   that g.d. lion wasn’t overboard? What would have tipped the scales? Having them pose as concubines w/ bound feet? You saw the martial artists!

   I’m not an expert in Chinese music, but I’m pretty certain that the gong thing is not as prevalent as “we” think…. It’s as subtle as “doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doooooo….CRASH”

   Daomadan ~ that was my first thought. Opera! I’m afraid of Jay’s instructions regarding the eyes!

   Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 1:47 pm ¶

7. RobynT wrote:

   yeah, this was painful. And don’t forget the face-painting and stuff they did in Australia. indigenous folks as background? yeah…

   Maybe Momo has a point though. How could this be done well? Should it just not be done at all?

   Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 1:50 pm ¶

8. Daomadan wrote:

   gatamala: Oh, I don’t even want to think about it. I’ve been studying Beijing Opera (and other forms in China) and have a deep love and understanding of it. I don’t want to hear another “It sounds like screaming cats” comment. >.<

   Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 2:32 pm ¶

9. Daomadan wrote:

   Vgirl: I get a bad link when I click on that. Repost? I’d love to read the analysis of Extreme Home Makeover.

   Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 2:38 pm ¶

10. Daomadan wrote:

    RobynT: I sort of wish it weren’t done at all. It seems to me they’re simply using another country as a photo backdrop and using the people of that country as nothing but accessories (For example, in the Australia episode with the Indigenous people.)

    Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 2:42 pm ¶

11. Seattle Slim wrote:

    I love Beijing Opera. I think it sounds beautiful and the costumes are lovely so if they can pull it off well, then more power to them.

    The gong was irritating and so over the top. The martial arts were generic. I did like the lion however.

    Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 7:13 pm ¶

12. Black Strawberry wrote:

    I try to avoid ANTM, so I saw the clip on Best Week Ever. Pretty much when I do see some bit and parts of ANTM, I make fun of the models and make snarky comments. I joke how can trya find time being the solution and Problem (I stole that from the soup) It was over the top, I thought ummm couldn’t you keep the dragon? he was cute. I felt was gorging myeyes out when I saw the epsidode forget the face-painting in Australia. Luckly I had a remote, I do admit sometimes ANTM sometimes is too silly and tends to rely on the drama and explain how difficult it is to be a model(up to the point it sounds like and extaggration)

    Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 8:16 pm ¶

13. Lisa wrote:

    Every event by foreign brands in Shanghai and Beijing pull this same Orientalist trap, with the lion dance and Peking opera. Fendi even did it on the Great Wall recently, for 200% more ching-chonginess. Of course, lion dances are Cantonese, and are as indigenious/relevant to Shanghai or Beijing as clog dancing. Peking opera is the northern Chinese imperialist appropriation of the much older Kunju, which emerged near Shanghai 500 years before, so treating it as “local” culture in Shanghai is rather a spit in the face of actual local culture.

    I try to encourage them to hire local rock acts, or avant-garde dancers, even Chinese traditional dancers…but they’re always, like, “But does it have gongs?” I really hate the reductionist, stereotyped notions ignorant foreigners have of what constitutes “Chineseness”.

    Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 8:22 pm ¶

14. Karen wrote:

    Once the dragon came out I was like, “oh god no…wait for it…wait for it.” *gong*

    the link was cut off: http://herstoryhistorybolg.blogspot.com/2007/10/everyone-loves-makeover.html

    Posted 19 Nov 2007 at 11:09 pm ¶

15. Vgirl wrote:

    Sorry about the bad link. Not sure if all the links to ABC’s site still work. But, the show gets full coverage there…gospel choir trip to by things for the Brown Family and all. Here it is again, hopefully it works: http://herstoryhistorybolg.blogspot.com/2007/10/everyone-loves-makeover.html

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 12:03 am ¶

16. Momo wrote:

    Gatamala: You’re right if they would have came out with bound feet that would be over the top but they didn’t…. as for the wonderful wild life in America not being seen in vogue …are you sure about that ?have you seen every single model pose in Vogue? I didn’t think so. As for the ANTM girls portraying animals …as an Artist I can tell you that that is done more than you think…wheather its Fine Arts , Visual arts, Dance or modeling its just another way of expressing art. SO the ANTM girls are going to China whats the big deal…OMG they posed in front of the Great Wall…::gasp:: I’m sooo offended…Oh Nooo they have to try and speak Cantonese for a commerical …I’m so angry about that…Oh No They Didn’t try to learn a traditional dance …How Dare They!!! ….it just seems to me that alot of people feel that if anyone talks about another culture …shows some type of interest or anything about another culture that they are being offensive…that just doesn’t seem right? again thats just my Opinion =)

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 8:14 am ¶

17. Daomadan wrote:

    Momo: The thing is…how is learning Cantonese for a commercial respecting the culture? It is simply being appropriated so that some foreign models can try to sell a product to the Chinese. How arrogant is that?

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 9:26 am ¶

18. Momo wrote:

    So doing their job is arrogant…when you have a job that takes you around the world ( not just modeling …think of any job) you have to learn a few things about the langauge and culture …its not like they are learning these things for a bad reason.

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 11:18 am ¶

19. Daomadan wrote:

    The difference is they’re only learning these things so they can film a bad reality TV show.

    You trust Tyra (or Nigel or any of the others) to respectfully represent another culture after she pulled out the lion and the gong and the fan and some warriors? Don’t even get me started on how often they all love to make fun of different accents (Jaslene) or people whose second language is English (Natasha).

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 11:58 am ¶

20. gatamala wrote:

    daomadan~ I don’t know anything about opera, but I’ve have seen some performances on tv and absolutely loved it! I know the vocal inflections (? I am not a musician) of which you speak & don’t understand why folks can’t get past one type of song.

    Momo,

    as an Artist I can tell you that that is done more than you think…

    …with a capital A.

    Step 3, Step 4, Step 6 –> http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/607897.html

    ftr back in the “supermodel” heyday, I had a subscription to Vogue. I flip through them at the salon. I’m waiting to see models poses as grizzly, bears, eagles, possums…

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 12:31 pm ¶

21. gatamala wrote:

    Daomadan~

    Tyra can’t even faithfully or compassionately represent her own culture!!!!!

    Neck roll, fingersnaps, mmmhmmm gurl, Southern accents need to be purged, BK accents are cool and “ethnic”

    I like that part of the problem/solution quote.

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 12:35 pm ¶

22. Momo wrote:

    Gatamala: so what exactly is Tyra’s culture? Black culture has so much variety…. so whats her culture again?

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 12:44 pm ¶

23. Daomadan wrote:

    Supermodel Culture ™. ^_~

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 1:42 pm ¶

24. Momo wrote:

    lol ok ok =)

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 1:53 pm ¶

25. Kai wrote:

    Momo, I encourage any and all to cultivate a healthy interest in Asian culture. I’m even usually a good sport about providing encouraging answers when white folks randomly and at their leisure ask me, let’s just say, basic questions. Heck I write a blog which often explores Chinese history, culture, the visual arts, the martial arts, etc, in some detail. But let’s start here: if you have any respect for a culture, you should probably begin by listening to people who have been steeped in that culture their entire lives. Must I really convince you through exhaustive expository argumentation that I, as a person of Chinese descent, am thoroughly familiar with things such as gongs, fan dances, lion dances, Chinese opera, and the martial arts, that in fact I’m quite fond of many of these elements of my traditional culture and have studied many of them extensively, and that indeed I have a solid and nuanced grasp of what constitutes appropriate amateur enthusiasm and what constitutes offensive misuse? Because trust me, I could take you to school on these matters; it’s just that it seems obvious to me that we shouldn’t really have to go there every damn time the subject of my culture comes up. It really takes an embarrassing dose of arrogance for someone non-Chinese to come up to me and lecture me about what is or isn’t an appropriate exhibition of, deployment of, or articulation of my own culture.

    So please, when Carmen rolls her eyes at a misappropriation of Chinese culture — whether it’s just a mildly awkward misstep or a flagrantly offensive appeal to racism — please have enough damn respect to realize that she knows what the hell she’s talking about, most likely at a level of detailed consideration that goes way over the head of someone who did not grow up in Chinese culture. If you’re actually interested in learning something about Chinese culture, you may want to listen to us Chinese folks, as a start.

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 1:57 pm ¶

26. Momo wrote:

    Kai: Wow you totally missed my point. Well here are a few questions for you. 1. Since what Tyra did was so wrong ..How could she have made it better? 2. What if that scene that Tyra did was hosted by someone of Chinese descent? I wonder would it still have the same effect on people. You guessed right I’m not Chinese but I have my own culture …and people say and claim things about my culture also. People try to learn my language and my culture and it doesn’t bother me. As a matter of fact I welcome it…”The More We Know The More We Grow” Of course when representing my culture is done in a bad way it does upset me….so back to my point. In MY Opinion I don’t think what Tyra did was THAT bad …I NEVER said it was the greatest thing …but honestly it wasn’t the WORST and we all know it could have been worst. That was my whole point. Everyone is always talking about how bad something is…When are we gonna start talking about how we can make things better…How could Tyra have made that Scene better and don’t bow out by saying “not do the scene at all” . How can someone from another culture try to represent someone else’s culture without someone being offended? Is it even possible?

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 3:36 pm ¶

27. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Hey Momo -

    Here’s my view. (And I am obviously not asian, but I have struggled with how to appreciate a culture without appropriating it, so while I am not an authority, I’m going to offer my two cents:

    Personally, I notice that Asian countries tend to be essentialized.

    So, in the American mind set gong + foreign music + fans = some part of Asia.

    Gong + fan + DRAGON = China.

    Gong + fan + GEISHA = Japan.

    See what I mean? All the same stuff gets recycled over and over again. When I went to a Washington Wizards game and Yao Ming was competing, they decided to honor his culture. How? With a gong, Asian music, martial arts, and a big red Dragon.

    Don’t get me wrong, all of those things are cool and part of Chinese culture. But as someone with only a passing interest in Chinese culture, I wonder - isn’t there something more?

    To me, it would kind of be like having the universal symbols of black culture be kente cloth, hip-hop, and chitlins. These things are all parts of culture, but they are not the be all end all of blackness.

    For people as traveled as the top model crew, I would have thought they would come up with something more creative to symbolize China. Something I did not know about.

    When ANTM went to Thailand, I loved how they showed some historical bits and some of the modern bits. So I would like a little more of the learning bit and more cultural contrast - here is the countries history and here is the day to day life.

    I also like the bit about learning the language. I did not see this episode, but I do think just attempting to learn a language teaches you some humility - personally, I have a lot of respect for anyone who wants to learn a language that is outside of their language family. It’s tough and it kinda of makes you think twice before insulting someone’s English.

    In terms of how we can make it better, personally, I like to see when people from the region take you into their lives and homes. For ATNM specifically, I would love to see them put the girls up in an apartment and explore the city with them. To discuss culture and art and look at modern applications of it. People rely on the same old, same old because it’s easy - but on a show where people are expected to be at the top of their creative game, should we expect anything less?

    Did that make sense Momo?

    [Side note - I would love to see the ATNM girls go overseas and have to mix and compete with models from that area. Mixed teams, with the regional models showing them the ropes…]

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 4:13 pm ¶

28. Kai wrote:

    Momo, actually you’re right that I may have missed your point, I obviously got a little hot based on the “oversensitive” and “eager to be offended” comments I read a little upthread. It doesn’t sound like you intended it, but you should know that those arguments are very triggering for me and many other anti-racists because they’re so often used to marginalize legitimate critique. I can’t even begin to tell you how many times I’ve dealt with those lines of attack (i.e. “you people are just oversensitive, looking for reasons to play the victim card, full of angry divisive rhetoric that hurts your cause, etc”).

    I agree that Tyra isn’t the WORST, but Carmen never said that, she just rolled her eyes in exasperation, ya know? Plus we all know that Carmen has a thing for making fun of Tyra (hopefully Carmen’s no longer reading this thread…ahem, sorry Carmen, you do!). There are countless ways that the show’s producers could have showed a deeper cultural awareness, but I must add that I also reject the argument (again, often used against legitimate critique) that if you’re to criticize a show/movie/essay/book/etc, you must also provide a superior alternate version correcting said criticism. See why that’s problematic? Most people aren’t TV writers or producers, they’re just sitting at home at the end of the day trying to relax, watching this show, and if they get offended, it doesn’t mean they think they’re suddenly a better writer/producer than anyone else, it just means they’re offended and to me that alone is already legitimate.

    Having said all that, I’ve written in the past that anti-racist media activism has 3 components in my mind: (1) cultural critique; (2) political/economic pressure; and (3) original cultural production. So in my ideal world, any genuine look at Chinese culture begins with the understanding that China is incredibly diverse, geographically, ethnically, culturally…with over 50 ethnic groups, a broad range of languages, and a history so long and complex that reductionism is a real mistake. It’s important to try to wrap our minds around the sheer size of China — 1 out of every 5 human beings on Earth is Chinese — because then we begin to appreciate the impossibility of reducing one-fifth of humanity to any single thing, given what we all personally know about human diversity. After all, the point here is to humanize rather than exoticize. If we keep coming back to that essential point, we’re in decent shape, ya know?

    So Tyra could kick off with something along the lines of, “Okay we’ve all seen and heard a lot of different things about China, on TV and in movies and in political news, some positive and some negative. But today on America’s Next Top Model we thought we’d try to go beyond stereotypical images of gongs and dragons, and take a look at China that would be a bit more educational. And maybe we can get a better understanding of the world’s most populous nation, and get a sense of the Chinese people on a more human down-to-earth level.” Okay so I’m not gonna get a job writing Tyra monologues, but you know what I mean. I don’t see why this is all that difficult. Does all this make sense to you?

    In any case, I think I’ve made my point with enough verbosity for now!

    Good comment, Latoya, I think you nailed it. And the chitlins line cracked me up.

    Peace.

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 6:28 pm ¶

29. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    Hey just to clarify: Jasmine actually wrote this post, not me. As much as I’d like to take credit for it.

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 6:41 pm ¶

30. Kai wrote:

    Doh! Okay, time for a “Carmen” / “Jasmine” search and replace. Sorry bout the confusion! And I take that back about you giving Tyra a hard time!

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 7:11 pm ¶

31. Momo wrote:

    I understand what you mean (^_^) well all I can say is that hopefully Tyra will meet our expectations maybe they will go deeper into the history and give us more than what we already know…guess we’ll find out tomorrow night. Take care everyone I enjoyed this post. It opened my eyes to how I should word things ….Thanks Kai

    Posted 20 Nov 2007 at 7:31 pm ¶

32. Kai wrote:

    Thanks for the exchange, Momo, and for listening!

    And thanks to Jasmine for writing the post in the first place. Sorry once again for the name mix-up, I’ve been around here long enough to know better, I don’t know what the hell I was thinking! Cheers.

    Posted 21 Nov 2007 at 2:22 pm ¶

33. Kaonashi wrote:

    I would be more offended if it was just certain groups the show did this to, but it’s EVERYONE. Every cycle the girls go somewhere different. And every cycle Tyra goes over-the-top in her representation of whatever country they are going to visit…from berets to bulls to a poor kangaroo who seemed genuinely distressed by all the shrieking and tried to hide, lol.

    Some of it might be a deliberate dumbing down as well. Let’s be honest here–some of the girls on that show haven’t been exposed to a lot (that probably goes for some of the viewing public as well) and her job is to get her point across as quickly as possible in a way that the majority of people can understand WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT IT. The most I can accuse her for is going for the most obvious elements.

    Posted 23 Nov 2007 at 7:52 pm ¶

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