Bigot-Proof Vest: Are You Wearing Yours?

by Racialicious special correspondent Wendi Muse

The definition of racism is very broad:

rac•ism –noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Yet I noticed in many of the responses to Latoya’s post “4th Generation Racist: Can You Be Anti-Racist If You’re Anti-White?” , a few comment posters focused more on the subcategory of racism listed as #2, mixed with a little bit of #1, as opposed to remembering #3. I say this because I saw many people discussing the so-called technical “inability” of people of color to actually be racist.

They are not the only ones who think this way. I see it quite often in written work, both casual and academic, by people of color and white allies. However, I am going to go out on a limb here and respectfully disagree.

People of color can most certainly be racist, and denying that sets back some of the anti-racist activism that we rely upon for change. Just because we are “of color,” I don’t believe that we are all equipped with some immunity, some bigot-proof vest, that guards us from taking in and arming ourselves with racism as a weapon against others. If we buy this, it allows us to continue to a) think of whites as the only “enemy,” people of color as the only “victims” of oppression, and b) to lie to ourselves about a fictional binary with whites on one side and people of color on the other, people of color usually being portrayed as infallible, when it couldn’t be further from the truth. It also sets us back because it places blame on one group while simultaneously deflecting from the internal problems we need to work out to achieve a greater sense of POC solidarity.

In addition, by denying that people of color can be racist, we are discounting the experiences of people for whom intra-racial hatred is a very deep-seated issue. It reminds me somewhat of the discussions of statutory rape in which the female is the perpetrator of the crime, the male the victim. Because we are not conditioned to hearing such cases of role “reversal,” because women don’t fit into our typical idea of a sexual predator, and because men are seen as the dominant sex, to think of women as perpetrators of sexual assault and/or coercion tends to throw us off, often with the press ignoring the fact that a crime was committed at all and instead focusing on some distracting factor like how “lucky” the victim was to have an older woman come onto him or how “hot” the criminal is. The rape/sex offense becomes trivialized by way of our collectively internalized gender norms and we lose sight of what really happened.

I think accounts of racism that whites may experiences from people of color and/or racism between people of color are treated in a similar way, at least if we do not consider it racism in the first place. Some argue that if we are not in the position to wield power, then we technically cannot be the carriers and perpetrators of racism. I cannot speak for all people of color, and certainly do not claim to do so in this post, but I know plenty of people, myself included, who can cite instances of racism involving other people of color, not necessarily just whites, the usual villains in accounts of race-based prejudice and discrimination.

Though this seems somewhat counter to the usual assumption that the South is “more racist” than the North, I experienced more discrimination and witnessed more instances of racism in New York City than in my hometown of Memphis, Tennessee, most of it intra-racial conflict, in fact. It seemed that while many of the whites I encountered may have held internal racist beliefs, they rarely acted on them in such brazen ways as the people of color who bore hatred for other groups of color (again, not a sweeping generalization here, just a recounting of my personal experiences). Examples include being spit at when walking through Chinatown with my Asian-American ex, seeing older black women glare at black male/white female interracial couples, overhearing an Eastern European woman express her disgust that an Asian man who was lost in the subway station did not speak English, and being stuck in a car with a South Asian driver who hated Hasidic Jews (so much so that he failed to yield when they were crossing the street).

It seems that as a result of our being at constant competition for the same resources, relations between people of color are made even more intense (in comparison to their relationship with whites). The scramble for the top becomes one that involves climbing over others, even if it means co-opting the racism they may have learned from whites (or, in general, West-controlled media sources . . . i.e. the purveyance of negative stereotypes of blacks by way of news reporting, tv shows, and music abroad in the same vein of negative stereotypes of Arabs here in the U.S.). But I am apprehensive to blame whites or even the West for all of these stereotypes, especially considering that some racism existed in some cultures long before contact with whites. Cases of colorism provide an excellent example. Of course, colonialism aided this desire to have lighter skin as it became synonymous with institutional power and presence, but it has origins in class stratification (darker skin = more exposure to sun by way of hard labor). If such standards are carried over into relationships with say, darker skinned peoples of the world, for example, if a person of Japanese descent held prejudice against a person of Pakistani descent based on skin color, is this not racism? What would we call it if it is not? Would we have some ready-made excuse for the hatred simply because the person exhibiting such beliefs is considered a person of color (in the United States)?

I also wonder whether or not we would be heavily relying upon Western concepts of race to even misdiagnose racism when it is right under our noses? In assuming that people of color cannot be racist (toward one another or whites), we are disregarding the varied global concepts of race. Who is “of color” in the United States may be “white” in terms of power elsewhere, as I touched on in a previous post. This being said, that individual may have never experienced oppression in his/her society of origin, and may consider him/herself to be superior to one group or another based on that very fact. Of course, this may change dramatically once the person moves to another country, city, or community, but that does not mean that he or she will all of a sudden share a sense of solidarity with the oppressed that he/she once rejected as inferior, nor does it mean that those feelings will subside due to the lowered social status.

So while this is more of a glorified comment than a real post, I just wanted to add my two cents to the discussion in a more formal manner. I look forward to reading comments that expand on both my points and the comments left on Latoya’s post as I sincerely value the element of discussion here on this site.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Answers for Class #1 « Problem Chylde: Learning in Transition on 14 Sep 2007 at 8:58 pm

    [...] and have-nots (or what Wallerstein refers to as a “bimodal distribution of rewards”), the model’s limitations alarm and disorient anyone accustomed to dealing with truth in any rec….  This simplistic model is the concept of “racism = prejudice + power” — and [...]

  2. Isn’t This Why White Folks Can’t Be Trusted? « Automatic Preference on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:01 pm

    [...] ability to plug into a power grid* does something to relationships between [...]

Comments

  1. Ange wrote:

    Carmen, I am not capable of stringing my sentences together, as well as most of your readers, but here goes.

    I OWN my racism, it’s one of my negatives that I am always working on. Having these feelings, have also helped me to realise, that it is pretty damn hard for white people raised in this Country, with entilement and privilige, to not think they are just a little bit better than you, even when they are married to or dating you.

    I have also lived in the South, and find NY so called progressive whites, to be a lot more racist than some Southerners. One of the reasons I love the South, you know the enemy, he never hides.

    How do you move forward, when for the most part, the whites who are so sure they are not racists and the ones that are proud they are, don’t want to have a dialogue about race?!

  2. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    I. Love. This. Ttitle.

    [Carmen - can you ask Jamie to put "Bigot Proof Vest" on a tee shit? I need it to live!]

    Anyway, on to the actual subject at hand.

    When I was originally working through trying to find an outlet for my rage at the state of society, I was forced to examine my own internal prejudices.

    And there were a lot of them. I had friends of many races (does that defense sound familiar?) but I still held ideas about the mythical “them.” My Latino/a friends were different, unlike the sweaty men who poured onto the metro bus after a long day of work, speaking only in Spanish. My Asian friends weren’t like the shop keepers, liquor store clerks and beauty supply shop owners who were apparently evil devils taking over the neighborhood.

    I didn’t bat an eye if someone yelled out Asian slurs while waiting to get their carryout food. The slurs – along with the rude treatement from the carryout employees – just seemed like a basic exchange. Tit for tat.

    Later in life, it occured to me that this ongoing POC strife was wrong. (It also occured to me that friends of different races do not give you a race based exemption – you can still apply generalizations to a group, while elevating a chosen few in your own mind.)

    I figured that the way to overcome racism would be for POCs to unite, find commonality in our struggles, and create a strong economic and social base by which to surpass the institutions of white people.

    Simple right?

    But that means solving problems, examining our racism toward each other, and eventually looking at racism within the self.

    And then striving to overcome it.

    So while I understand the arguments put forth that racism is power plus prejudice, I think that oversimplifes what has to happen and what we need to do.

    That’s why I will claim the title of racist, and work to overcome it. I feel as though acknowledging PoC racism is the only way to start building bridges within our respective communities. And in order to that, we have to actually admit that something we are feeling – something we feel justified in feeling – is wrong.

  3. gatamala wrote:

    as a Southerner, I co-sign on the North/South argument

    This is a great post. While I will never absolve the role of “whiteness” in the scheme of things, it can definitely deflect attention from other experiences of racism. I have heard black folks and other folks say things about other people that knocked me over.

    My personal experiences with cabdrivers: some of them can be cold-blooded. Though not as bad as the guy you referenced.

    I’ve had a S. Asian hack explain to me why he wouldn’t take a “big black guy” to SE!!!

    I’ve had a Ghanaian hack tell me what’s wrong with black Americans and how black Am women “don’t take care of themselves”!!!!!

    I’ve had a black Am male tell me that he won’t ride the Metro bus b/c “of all the Hispanics”!!!

    Sometimes I just want to give up.

  4. Lyonside wrote:

    Thanks for this, Wendi. Often the argument goes, “racism is about power and minorities don’t have power.” Well, it depends on how you define power: a group of people of one or another minority group outnumbering and targeting, say, my white mother or my white cousin, have a very specific power over her. Power can be experienced on a scale as large as society or as small as a one-to-one interaction.

    Globally, cultures and ethnicities can and do have stereotypes and animosities that have little to do with European or European-American concepts of race. However, since we don’t live in a vaccuum, did/do those European/Euro-American racial ideas and categories probably augment existing problems and exacerbate issues? Totally. And in some cases, did colonial powers exploit the stereotypes of one group over another to maintain order and deflect attention and resistance from themselves (easiest case-point – Rwanda)? Absolutely. But that doesn’t excuse the older stereotypes, or support the idea that those prejudices aren’t essentially racism.

  5. Kai wrote:

    Well, first I’ll offer my own definition of the word “racism”: Racism is an institutionalized system of power, encompassing an interlocking set of economic, political, social, and cultural structures, actions, and beliefs which systematically ensure an unequal distribution of privilege, resources, and influence in favor of a dominant racial group at the expense of all other racial groups.

    This definition does not preclude any racial group from participation in racism, nor does it mark “enemies”. It is also anti-essentialist in nature, by which I mean that it rejects race as an inherent determinant of human behavior (i.e. “race X behaves in manner Y” is rejected). But it does connect interpersonal behavior to a dominant system of power. When a person’s interpersonal behavior toward another person plugs into an overarching system of power, it transcends mere bigotry or insult and becomes something larger than the two individuals, because it is supported by powerful institutions which are capable of inflicting much more damaging consequences (e.g. court system, law enforcement, banks). This is a key concept in a majority of the anti-racist literature and scholarship with which I’m familiar, which is perhaps what you’re challenging here.

    Wendi, just so we know precisely what you’re arguing against, could you link us to representative samples of (serious) commentary which argues that people of color cannot exhibit racist bigotry (”bigot-proof vest”)? It might help lay a foundation for the dialogue you seek — especially since you appear to be accusing people (I’m not sure who) of holding back anti-racist movement, which is obviously a pretty heavy charge.

    Perhaps our conceptual framework of racism needs more explicit elaboration for these discussions to have more utility and meaning. As I said in the thread on Latoya’s post, the taxonomy of racism certainly deserves fresh examination; through such examination, we can attempt to build consensus around a descriptive language. What perplexes me a bit is that you and Latoya both appear to be implicitly asserting one taxonomical system while deriding other established precedents and variants, though without exactly saying so. I’m not sure; I’m only trying to figure out where all this is going and what’s really being grappled with here.

    Peace and solidarity.

  6. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    > Wendi, just so we know precisely what you’re arguing against, could you link us to representative samples of (serious) commentary which argues that people of color cannot exhibit racist bigotry (”bigot-proof vest”)?

    I can’t speak for Wendi, but personally I am bothered when people simply don’t want to use the term “racist” to describe bigotry on the part of people of color.

    Michael Eric Dyson, for example, on that god-awful CNN special back in December, went out of his way to say that no, people of color could not be racist because they have no power. They could be prejudiced, but not racist.

  7. lydia wrote:

    Thanks so much Kai for your thoughtful response- i really agree with your on the definition of racism and it is important to have that framework set before a true discussion can be had. As for my 2 cents: we live in a white supremist society that is racist from the inside out. Therefore while slurs, assumptions and out right acts of bigotry are problematic and unacceptable they need to be contextualized in a larger framework of institutionalized racism. Often I find (like in the Imus case) that as a society we focus on egregious and sensational acts of “racism” while ignoring the larger more horrible statistics about the continued denial of resources to people of color. Focusing on outright assertions of “racism” or as I would more aptly call prejudice prevents a more useful discussion and action around the fact that we do indeed live a white supremist society and that the more pressing problems are glossed over and labeled as issues of culture etc… (e.g. culture of poverty rhetoric) rather than core foundational principles of this country. Honestly, Tricia Rose (as usual) says most of this better- so check this out: http://triciarose.com/commentary.shtml

  8. atlasien wrote:

    I agree it’s important to contextualize this stuff in terms of institutional racism.

    But it shouldn’t stop there. It has to work on multiple levels. Individuals need to challenge themselves and take personal responsibility. .. stop bullying, stop stereotyping, stop fearfully reacting against the stranger/foreigner/bogeyman/other. I personally wouldn’t chose to use the words “I own my own racism” but I agree 100% with the sentiment behind it.

    On a more conceptual level, in thinking about a model of racism where there’s one dominant racial group and numerous subordinate groups, the big question is how the subordinate groups can and should relate to each other. Their interactions with each other are articulated through the larger relationship with the dominant group. And if they’re constantly jockeying for position and hating on each other, the dominant group benefits even more, obviously, so what are the most effective strategies to fight against that?

    Just in my observation I have noticed that other people of color are really much more diverse in their approaches to racism and thinking about racism than white people. I agree with Wendi that they can be more blatantly racist in some ways. They can also be much more empathetic and self-critical.

    One larger example is looking at how many black people are in the organized anti-immigrant (i.e. Mexican-bashing) movement. Almost none. And a few of those have been exposed by the SPLC… for doing their so-called “advocacy” for a paycheck. I have heard some black people say very ignorant and prejudiced/racist things against Mexicans, but they tend to step back at some point and don’t get involved, and I really think this is due to slightly greater ability to empathize (plus a healthy fear of being around the crazy white people found in the anti-immigration movement).

  9. Kai wrote:

    Carmen, yeah I hear you on that. I actually find the “prejudice + power” formula to be a bit too linear and one-dimensional for many purposes which I’ve encountered; which is why I offered my (rather more long-winded) definition.

    However, asserting a popular definition for the word “racism” is a pretty ambitious project, and I don’t think it can be accomplished by dismissing a voluminous body of precedent-setting scholarship on the subject. I think we best contribute to that body of knowledge by beginning from a position of acknowledging and comprehending that work, then building upon it and beyond it, brick by brick. So if you’re bothered by a semantic distinction between “prejudice” and “racism”, then I think you can make the case for why the taxonomy you’re proposing serves anti-racist purposes better than the one being promoted by someone like Dyson. The critique is there to be made, but in my opinion the argument must be crystal clear and the utility of your proposed alternative framework must be made explicit and compelling.

    Personally, I don’t use “prejudice + power” because in fact we all have some power, even if it’s merely the power to inflict emotional or physical injury upon another human being. So I see a whole spectrum of power that can be deployed and abused many almost all members of society. However, it is undeniable that power (especially political and economic power) is unequally distributed in our society along racial lines; so I also resist the reactionary usage of the word “racism” which attempts to detach it from empirical social inequality and reduce it to interpersonal manners.

    I do think we need to remain cognizant here of political context: if you watch Fox News or listen to Limbaugh et al, you’ll constantly hear the words “racism” and “racist” used strictly to describe people of color who criticize white supremacy. Since I don’t approve of this usage, I try to use language that distinguishes between those common mistatements and my statements about persons of color who participate in or propagate racism, because we’re really talking about different things.

    Again, my views on this matter are strictly utilitarian rather than fundamentalist: the rhetoric that I believe most effectively articulates and advances anti-racism is the one I’ll go with, even as it changes over time.

  10. tracy wrote:

    Great article. Racism is not ‘colour-based’ and no group is exempt or incapable of it.

    For example, Australia and England. West Africa and East Africa. China and Japan.

    Racism and prejudices can occur within races. It’s not only whites against non-whites.

  11. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    I cosign with Atlasien, with a twist.

    I believe for anti-racist activities to be effective we need to be able to work with multiple definitions.

    For example, Kai’s definition of racism is excellent. But it is also very academic. While I like to consider myself educated, I would be lying if I did not mention how the words began to swirl around my head a bit.

    Complex definitions of racism define the problem…however, it does not make the problem accessible for the millions of people who deal with racism everyday.

    And, in my own experience, it is very difficult to convince someone of a problem with a large scope if they do not have the ground work laid first.

    So, I feel that a more simplified definition serves a bit better, particularly one that causes examination. By using the simplified version of racism, we may open up a bit of criticism, but I feel like we benefit more. I want students, older adults, etc to feel invested in other communities. To be called racist – a term normally reserved for white – prompts an examination of things like prejudice.

    Once a person is involved, and the issue becomes real to them, then we can take it to the text books. Then we can talk about things like racism and food politics and body politics and class and all of the other points that will eventually surface.

    But I feel as though using such a technical definition off the bat is more intimidating than beneficial. It’s kinda like with science – you start off by explaining basic, cause and effect type things. (Drop an apple? That’s gravity! Hit the wall? It’s made of matter!)

    Later, once these fundamental principles are set and agreed upon, you can introduce people to other concepts -like being both matter and energy – without them being overwhelemed.

    In order to combat racism, we have to make it relevant in the lives of both those who deal with it and those who benefit. So, in thinking about how to apply my knowledge of racism and turn it into activism, I feel the best way to do this is to play with the message so it reaches the maximum number of people.

    And simplicity tends to reach large numbers of people.

    Thoughts?

  12. Zig wrote:

    I certainly can’t speak for any other “PoC,” but I’ve noticed a lot of black folks flinch at something like “Hot Ghetto Mess” while continuing to trash poor “redneck” whites. A lot of us think that white skin entitles one to limitless opportunity here in the US, that the poorest cracker can still somehow “hold back” the richest black, and that whites can be poor only through their personal failures.

    Over the years, I have grown to hate “white people” less and to hate RICH people more. White skin may ease assimilation, but I don’t think much of anyone who prizes assimilation without acknowledging the completely autistic nature of the current economic system. Maybe I hate autistic people, too.

  13. DWS wrote:

    I may not communicate this as eloquently as some have but I do agree with Wendi, that PoC can have racist views of others. While there may be a great amount of focus on the word “racism” and how it is or is not defined, the bigger issue for me is the internal dialogue one has when expressing these thoughts and feelings and the impact of that dialogue on one’s life, health and spirit.

    Studies are revealing that racism and the stress associated with racism is directly impacting cancer rates in African American women. Having beat cancer twice in three years as an African American woman I have to ask the question… Is that racism exclusively limited to what is directed toward us, or can it also include the feelings that we harbor and express toward others?

    Whether it’s called racism or not, you only have control over yourself, not others. If you know “it” is eating you up from the inside out and you actually have the ability to change your own thought output, self-examination just might save your life.

    Peace

  14. ETS wrote:

    I guess the truth is that racism has multiple, conflicting definitions. So therefore in some cases blacks can’t be racists and in others, only whites can be racist.

  15. Minotaar wrote:

    A small point, but I think the notion that people of color are not racist has the subconscious pro-racist effect of suggesting that it takes ALL people of color to counteract ONLY whites. If we had less of a “PoC vs White” mentality, then not only would we not so willfully forget the overtly racist actions that some people of color partake in, but we would also take white people off of another pedestal. After all, being a villian that isnt defeated is just another kind of pedestal.

  16. Jason wrote:

    personally, I prefer the term white supremacy for many reasons but I digress…

    I think that “hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.” Has everything to do with points #1 and #2. Open and very public affirmations of hate/intolerance have and continue to be used as tools to justify and maintain the continued exploitation and marginalization of various groups. I feel like the dictionary.com definition simplifies things, but I don’t think that highlighting institutionalized forms of discrimination has to come at the exclusion of #3 (or even #1) (although I think #2 requires #1 and #3)

    In the previous discussion I said “anti _____ sentiments are never just prejudiced or bigoted sentiments because they have been systemically, culturally, politically, and historically, enforced and supported by the dominant culture.” I would extend this to #3 insofar as I believe that racism is not *just* about hatred, hostility, or intolerance so for me it becomes an issue of how attitudes, ideologies, social structures etc. maintain particular forms of domination (i.e. how one race oppresses/exploits another race). I also think there is a qualitative difference between prejudice and racism. I would say that difference stems from the definition that Kai uses.

    I think the idea that poc are not racist b/c they allegedly wear a bigotry proof vest vs. poc being racist because everybody is racist is a false dichotomy

    To say because poc can’t be racist means that we have immunity or that racism is some kind of special power that poc can lord over white people I disagree, because I don’t believe that racism is an immutable moral or character flaw tied to the behaviours of x group-it’s an affront to social privilege

    In my understanding the idea that “poc aren’t racist” isn’t because they are poc, or because white people are evil, or because poc possess some magic anti –racist geno/phenotype and it’s not about “colour”

    It has to do with the way racial formations and relationships between and among people have been organized, produced, and maintained *primarily* through the ideology of white supremacy (so the social and or cultural context here is specific)

    There is no immunity everyone is implicated and inundated by racist structures yes, poc can maintain, reinforce, replicate and benefit from these same systems of domination, but people occupy multiple positions within systems power (e.g. homophobia in coc, moc and sexism/patriarchy, poc being complicit in and benefiting from the colonization and exploitation of native folks etc. etc.)

    so I agree it’s not oppressor vs. victim and poc are not eternal victims. Still, I don’t think we all have the power or the capacity to oppress or become oppressors in the same way that doesn’t negate whatever accountability or responsibility poc may have in relation to this system or how it affects our choices and our basic social interactions

    I also agree with Kai’s point here:

    “But it does connect interpersonal behavior to a dominant system of power. When a person’s interpersonal behavior toward another person plugs into an overarching system of power, it transcends mere bigotry or insult and becomes something larger than the two individuals, because it is supported by powerful institutions which are capable of inflicting much more damaging consequences”

    it brings up question of humanity/human rights (I personally believe that racism is a dehumanizing process)

    so when you factor in say the hatred or intolerance of another race or other races on the basis of their so called “lack of or sub-humanity” and when that belief is explicitly and implicitly supported both socially, culturally, and by powerful institutions then I think it becomes easier to see the damaging consequences…

  17. severus wrote:

    Wow, from the article I gather that there are actually people who still think that non European-Americans can’t be racists. One word immediately comes to mind: “STUPID”!!
    BTW, nice Beretta photo!

  18. Wendi Muse wrote:

    ok, so i am still processing some of the comments and will have real follow up later, i promise, but i just wanted to say this now and ask a question:

    1. “dominant culture” is region-specific…
    2. with that said, how do we account for racism, like that which i mentioned, that is exclusively poc vs. poc and has nothing to do with whites and/or pre-dates contact with whites (who could be considered, though smaller in number, “dominant culture” on a larger scale if you’re basing it on economics and media) ? how does this dynamic plug into what has been said?

    also

    3. i learned the prejudice is purely thought and leads to racism, a form of prejudice which is usually thought + superiority (meaning my group is better than yours because you exhibit stereotypes a, b, and c and we don’t), which can lead to discrimination, one’s acting upon the racism (i.e. i will deny this person a job because i think he or she will fit into x stereotype that is based on a belief i hold about his/her racial group)

    also

    4. kind of a side topic, but how do we factor in these definitions with regard to hate crime legislation? is it any less racist if the crime is poc vs poc or poc vs. white (with the poc as perpetrator) and involves racial slurs/discrimination as opposed to white vs. poc crime, with a white person as the perpetrator? what term would we apply here?

    and lastly (sorry):

    4. how does this work in broader terms? can women be sexist? (i say yes); can lgbt-identified people be [fill in a sexuality]-phobic? (i say yes) etc etc…

    where do we end the limits of power? what if a poc/marginalized group member is a part of an institution? if a black person were to deny a person of asian descent a job based solely on the name on their resume because he/she harbors prejudice in the form of racism toward that person’s group, and this prejudice was formed independent of white influence (i.e. based solely on personal interaction with people of asian descent), would this act of discrimination not be considered based on racism? would it make a difference if the person denying the job were white? or a step further, how would it be different if the person were white but of a marginalized group? (i.e. a poor white, a white person who identifies as lgbt, a white person with a non-US place of origin)

    just some questions to throw out there for now

  19. Knowledge wrote:

    You give us a fairly decent definition of a racist and racism, then you ignore it entirely and start talking about black people being “Racist”

    I personally don’t know any black people who “hate” Caucasoids just because they have “pale, pasty, albino skin.

    I also don’t know many Black people who are in positions of power to take their racist views and harm White people. Over 90% of the top jobs and corporations in this country are run by White males; not black people.

    Black folks are ANGRY at the vicious treatment that Caucasians have doled out to us for over 250 years.. Or have you forgotten about who started this fight? It wasn”t black folks. Black people have fought in every diabolical war these Caucasian devils have started. We built this country into the wealthiest nation in the world by working for free over 200 years.

    We have not even been issued an apology for th ten to twenty million black people who were killed by the trans-atlantic slave trade.

    Caucasians started White Supremacy. Caucasians maintain the system of White Supremacy because it benefits their ethnic group and destroys all others that are nonwhite.

    So it is up to Caucasians to end White Supremacy.

    Place the blame where it lies… Squarely on the shoulders of Caucasians.

    If you folks don’t understand “White Supremacy” and how it affects you in every area of your life, then everything else you think you understand will only confuse you

  20. Zig wrote:

    Black folks can’t meet criterion #1, huh? Give a brother some credit. We just ain’t had the home-court advantage in a minute.

    Read up, son. Represent the wrong tribe down in the Motherland, and you’ll get a lot more than an awkward discussion of dick sizes.

    This is not to excuse centuries of white imperialism in America. But listen to yourself when you speak. America ain’t the world, and we’ve ALL got a tribalist gas leak waiting for a spark of power.

  21. Wendi Muse wrote:

    also, knowledge, the majority of this post is about intra-racial racism…i really don’t talk about black v. white issues at all, but it’s odd that no matter how much i try to stray from that being the primary issue, it always rolls back around to this. there is more to america than just black and white

  22. LM wrote:

    Great discussion… I especially appreciate comments the extended comments from Wendi, Kai, Latoya and Atlasien.

    Re: defining racism… I’m high on getting good working definitions, etc. But I care less about labels than the behavior. Do I care whether someone’s called a racist because they harmed someone based on race? Not so much. Do I care that they’re held accountable (or hold themselves accountable) so such actions become stigmatized? Yes.

    Along these lines, Kai, it seems to me that you’re unnecessarily ceding one use of the word by the Fox folks and their ilk. To me they’re 1) applying the “racism” label to actions/ideas that are NOT racism and 2) applying it selectively, even when it might be “true,” to focus on people of color. This is cynical (and racist) politics in the broad scheme, but it doesn’t mean the word has gone bad. It needs to be corrected, meaning arguments from the “right” side (not Fox’s — isn’t it crazy how that word, “right” is contextualized?) need to be as strong as possible.

    If that means using another word (or set of words), cool, but let’s keep the focus on how people ought to behave, what’s just, etc. If there’s any optimism whatsoever that dismantling will happen, in part because of what we’re doing now, I have a hard time believing that people other than whites are incapable of creating another similarly loathesome system. (Do I believe that will happen? No.) What’s implicit there is what’s inside — even if the power is “imaginary,” it’s there. That’s part of humanity… though I don’t think there’s an even distribution of evilness across individual humans, which is why I hold hope for a better future.

  23. LM wrote:

    My comment #22… meant to follow the word “dismantling” with “white supremacy.”

  24. Rob Schmidt wrote:

    Curiously, you don’t hear American Indians saying only whites can be racist. In fact, I’ve heard several Indians admit they’re just as prejudiced as anyone.

    When you talk about racism in nonwhite cultures, I think you need to be careful. True, every group of people is prejudiced for itself and against others–i.e., outsiders or “The Other.” But this is generally a cultural prejudice, not a racial one. Consider Americans vs. Germans in WW II, Chinese vs. Japanese, or Israelis vs. Palestinians. In each case the people belong to different cultures but the same race. They’re examples of prejudice but not racial prejudice (i.e., racism).

    Many people claim racism began when Europeans began colonizing the world in the 1500s and found PoCs inconveniently in the way. According to this theory, Caribbean Indians were the first victims of racial prejudice. For more on the subject, see “When Did Racism Begin?” at http://www.bluecorncomics.com/1strace.htm.

  25. Karl wrote:

    Hello All
    -I’m interested to know an example(s) of racism (of POC vs POC variety) that existed pre-contact with white people.

    - Regarding whether POC can be racist or not, the first question that comes to mind is: what’s the point? I say this because the only times I hear this question it is usually from a) white racist/supremacist called on his/her ish trying to naturalize their hateful behavior i.e. “What about racism against whites” or b) POC who think discussing/dismantling White Supremacy is passe or attempting to “naturalize” the phenomenon and equalize the effects (everybody can be racist blah blah stop complaining types)…the question is never really brought up in terms of building strengthened coalitions bet. various groups of P.O.C….that might have nothing to do with why u do so, just wanted to disclose my immediate reaction to the question for the sake of levity , honesty-maybe it will help so far as digging out an answer

    sorry about the rambling :)

    That said, POC can be white supremacists but not racist per se, The fact that the “racism” of all these wildly disparate POC groups all dovetail perfectly with white racism leads me to believe that it is the direct result of white supremacy (whether it be cases where it is exacerbated by white colonial rule or created whole cloth by white invaders)…Either that, or I am forced to believe that “black” people, rather darker skinned people (whatever the definition or word used to described them in a particular region whether it be a Pakistani in the UK, Dalit in India etc) are meant by some universal laws of human nature to be reviled and hated and despised and mistreated etc (because if it isnt white supremacy than this complex hatred of skin/features arose “naturally”)…

    when you find a race of POC disgusted by white skin, a race of POC on this planet disgusted by white hair texture, eye color and facial features and abusing whites in various spheres for this reason (or attempting to do so) then talk to me about POC being racist against whites…

    regarding the “racism” of POC vs other POC the term used depends on the situation….beef between Asians, pre WW1, wasn’t racism unless one is also willing to classify all wars between European peoples (not nations) “racist” ones as well (even though the term didnt exist as such and difference was still demarcated religiously)….in cases when POC vs POC hate is expressed in language/symbols that support or trade in the currency of white supremacy, said people are white supremacists period, not racists per se….the hate comes out in a system of competition for the affections of the “Great White Father” or to seem more civilized (closer to white) in comparison to other POC group being insulted…if black person says that “those mexicans are filthy and stealing “our” jobs” in whose voice is he speaking? Definitely not that of a black/african american, because blacks/african americans dont have any jobs they could call “ours”…he is speaking as an American (i.e. white or rather closer to white then the new “usurpers”)….Hispanic ill will twds blacks is white supremacist as it is the direct result of a system put in place by whites and is constant throughout all latin american countries (pigmentocracy, hatred of African roots, but if not prevalent, any nonwhite root that would prevent them from claiming civilization/whiteness). This probably hasnt helped at all…sorry…in any case I enjoy the site…might I suggest the book “Race War: White Supremacy and the Japanese Attack on British Empire” as it discusses the issue vis a vis the Japanese relation to nonwhites and colonial peoples (well atleast propaganda wise) and dovetails with what you are trying to parse out….

    Re: Motherland/tribe comments-that isnt true…those cats are not killing each other cause they view themselves as being of different races (remember a race is not a tribe, given that those that created the concept became white by smothering/killing off their “tribal” traits/histories/differences- if you wouldn’t use tribalism and equate it with racism when discussing UK/Ireland beef dont do it re Africa)

  26. Ange wrote:

    @Knowledge @Karl

    I agree!

    I read an interesting article by Robert Jensen , titled,
    The Reality of Race: Is the problem that White people don’t know or don’t care.

    He states in the article that, white people would not want to be Black, even if you offered them a large sum of money. We as PoC, can sit here and talk and talk all we want, the truth is they don’t want to give up or lose the power they have, and I doubt most really want to change their attitudes and way of thinking. I just can’t get my Parent’s words out of my head, ever. If we are so inferior, why the hate?! why have they put so much energy into hating people that have no power?! what exactly are they afraid of?! I don’t hate white people, but most days they get on my last nerve.

  27. donna darko wrote:

    Everyone’s racist and sexist. Everyone’s an oppressor and oppressed, as Patricia Hill-Collins said.

    But POC racism against whites has little effect like women’s sexism against men has little effect.

  28. donna darko wrote:

    regarding the “racism” of POC vs other POC the term used depends on the situation….beef between Asians, pre WW1, wasn’t racism unless one is also willing to classify all wars between European peoples (not nations) “racist” ones as well

    C’mon, Asians can be racist against each other. Heck, different regions of China are racist against each other.

  29. Zig wrote:

    Whatever is in my heart has an effect on me and those around me, and no white person created that or can take it away. I’m a bigot, not a martyr. White people may get on my last nerve, but they don’t control my thoughts.

  30. Jay wrote:

    When you talk about racism in nonwhite cultures, I think you need to be careful. True, every group of people is prejudiced for itself and against others–i.e., outsiders or “The Other.” But this is generally a cultural prejudice, not a racial one. Consider Americans vs. Germans in WW II, Chinese vs. Japanese, or Israelis vs. Palestinians. In each case the people belong to different cultures but the same race. They’re examples of prejudice but not racial prejudice (i.e., racism).

    Be careful about this. Since race itself isn’t a fixed definition, what you might think of as “non-racial” may in fact be according to their definitions of race.

    Moreover, the Chinese v Japanese thing’s been there for a long time, but it has been exacerbated by white imperialism (specifically when Japan started aggressive actions to make itself part of the imperialist club).