Why do white people support racism and sexism in hip hop?
by Carmen Van Kerckhove
Back in March, I interviewed hip hop journalist Harry Allen and Jason Tanz, author of Other People’s Property: A Shadow History of Hip-Hop in White America on Addicted to Race. We had a long, fascinating conversation about the relationship between white people and hip hop. Check it out if you get a chance.
Justin Ross, a candidate for the Maryland House of Delegates, just wrote an interesting opinion piece for the Washington Post about why he believes he’s part of hip hop’s problem. (Thanks Liam!)
I was struck by this column because it’s so different from the myriad other opinion pieces I’ve read on the topic, many of which seem to dwell on the fact that there’s some kind of inherent pathology that makes African-Americans enjoy the negative aspects of hip hop.
Here are some excerpts, but I would definitely encourage you to go read the whole thing.
But I haven’t heard a peep from the white fans who essentially underwrite the industry by purchasing more than 70 percent of the rap music in this country, according to Mediamark Research Inc. I don’t presume to tell any artist, studio executive or record label what to record or not record. But I will presume to ask young white customers: Why are we buying this stuff?…
Let’s be clear about what we — rap’s huge white audience — are becoming insensitive to: crime against black people, drugs being sold in black neighborhoods, black people being killed. I think this desensitization is partly responsible for the absence of discussion about the cruel fact that, according to a 2001 study by the Department of Health and Human Services, the leading killer of African Americans ages 15 to 34 is homicide. It may also help explain why you’ll seldom hear politicians talking about another awful statistic: According to the same study, African Americans are five times more likely than whites to be victims of homicide.
So who are the rappers really aiming at? Many rap songs use the “N-word” a dozen times or more. But I can count on two hands the number of times I’ve heard the words “whitey” or “cracker” in rap music. I wonder: If the Grand Wizard himself owned a record label, how much different would the music sound?
I also wonder what would happen if rap artists started talking about selling dope in the suburbs, or shooting white people or beating down white men. Would rap’s comfortable white fans continue to consume it? I suspect the record companies wouldn’t even sell it. Like the majority of people who buy rap music, the majority of people who get rich off it are white. That sort of thing might hit a little too close to home for hip-hop’s fans and profiteers.
Racialicious readers, what do you think about Ross’s column? What responsibility, if any, do you think white listeners have for eradicating the racism and sexism in hip hop?
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of
Wendi Muse wrote:
i don’t think listeners (of any race) of any type of music necessarily have a responsibility for eradicating the negative images/situations that the music form covers, with the exception of maybe no longer acting as patrons of the music/ artist (like buying the records, attending the concerts) if they object to the content.
however, i think the fact that the lifestyle propagated in rap music is inaccessable for some, it adds to the appeal. as i covered in my article on diplo a while back, the poverty, violence, and sex exhibited in many forms of music gives people an inside view, albeit sometimes superficial, into certain communities to which they have limited personal exposure. it’s like taking a ghetto vacation without ever having to leave the house. . . and i think that’s the point.
so being active in bringing its end about would be counterproductive to the reason for their listening to the music in the first place. it’s an alter-ego that has no real risk. an escape with no consequences.
now this is not to say that is for ALL rap listeners, nor all white patrons of music that recounts tales about life in poverty, the daily hustle, and that degrades women. some people just like the beat or respect the artist’s skill. . . so i think that has to be considered as well.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 8:13 am ¶
Wendi Muse wrote:
one more thing…i think the same argument applies to people of color who are wealthy/upper middle class. the class difference between the artist (pre-popularity)/the issues they may have faced vs. the listeners of color who may be from affluent backgrounds is rarely discussed.
sometimes the distance is greater, in fact. i am educated, had a healthy childhood/positive upbringing, and never knew poverty. though i identify as a person of african descent, there is still a huge chasm between me and the artists who bear the same skin color. . . sometimes one larger than the difference between some of the white people i know who like hip hop…
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 8:15 am ¶
atlasien wrote:
Sort of connected to what Wendi just wrote… I remember being introduced to gangsta rap in summer camp, by a South Asian camper of Trinidadian origin, who knew every single word of The Geto Boys album.
The appeal of violence and degradation is almost universal. Aristotle asked, why do good people so enjoy watching plays where bad people do really horrible violent things? His theory of mimesis and catharsis applies as much to The Geto Boys as to The Iliad.
There’s a GZA lyric that goes “life is a script, I’m not the actor but the author of a modern-day opera”. The issue of sexism and racism in hip-hop is always insanely complicated because the genre has one existence in realism, authenticity and autobiography… another existence in exaggeration, mythology and fiction. When criticized on one plane it switches to the other: “I am only honestly representing what my life was really like/I am only painting fictional landscapes for the amusement of my highly sophisticated listeners”
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 8:56 am ¶
dnA wrote:
The problem is that no one questions the artistic legitimacy of the Iliad, or Medea, or Oedipus, nor do they hold the horrible deeds committed in those works of art as reflective of the intrinsically “savage” nature of the cultures that produced them.
There is no way to have a conversation about Hip-hop without acknowledging that American culture has always used a reductive shorthand to engage black culture and black people. The issue isn’t Hip-hop. The issue is that the market is driven by a demand for a voyeuristic experience of black life, which regardless of genre or medium, will continue as long as black people are seen as a frightening and exotic other.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 10:18 am ¶
ccch wrote:
What about the young black women who purportedly make up the rest of this percentage who buy , therefore “encourage” this sort of music?.
Seems to me this problem stems from the black community, again, doing themselves in for a quick buck!. We’ve only got ourselves to blame !!!.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 10:36 am ¶
bubba wrote:
Give me a freakin’ break, folks. The people enjoying this stuff aren’t looking for a peek inside the world of Black America. They want their negative assumptions about that community to be reinforced, and hip-hop is there to oblige. Whether it’s people of color who participate in their own degradation, or whites validating the supremacy handed down to them for generations.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 12:15 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:
The issue isn’t Hip-hop. The issue is that the market is driven by a demand for a voyeuristic experience of black life, which regardless of genre or medium, will continue as long as black people are seen as a frightening and exotic other.
I do agree on the sideshow/freakshow aspect of hip-hop. However, it doesn’t have to be an either/or situation. Folks who are hip-hop artists and consumers participate in the freakshow. Thus, hip hop has to be part of the problem.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 12:28 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:
Sorry but when has everything about black music has to be postive? whites have always indulged in racial sterotypes from minstrels, vauldville, to coon – hop since Dre dropped the Chronic in 1993. I take the Frank Zappa postion on the whole matter now. Let people listen to what they want the problem in the African- American community music – wise is that we don’t tolerate diversity amongst ourselves.
Black Folks play Punk, Metal, Nu Wave, Rock, retro and what gets played on the radio and labeled controlled R&B and Hip- Hop. I have been to hundreds of concerts over the years and you can go to a rock show and see three generations of families seeing a Rolling Stones or Rush gig, but go to EWF and it’s mainly whites various races and older blacks. Young Blacks don’t mind smapling the music for their hits but they don’t support the older acts nor does BET, Black radio and Black People themselves support diversity in our music.
I take Mr. Ross admition with a laughable grain of salt. It’s time that A.A. admit that we are part of the problem and the solution and it’s time to allow bands like TV on the Radio, Fishbone, Bad Brains, Apollo Heights, Year of the Dragon, Wicked Wisdom, Duke, Whole Wheat , Tamar Kali and other black alternative acts on radio and outlets like BET, Emptvee and Vh-1and video along with the Beyonces, Ludacris and Kayne West.
That’s the solution to black music give people a choice .
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 3:11 pm ¶
Kim wrote:
That was an intelligent article. And I agree with his argument for more white listeners joining the boycott against biased and violent hip-hop. I believe it will help reach the goals that the black leaders hoped to reach during the Imus scandal. For instance, think of the tremendous controversy when Snoop Dogg released Cop Killer. It was shut down almost immediately because the public wouldn’t condone the violent, illegal connotations. As long as some white hip-hop listeners are starting to think that the lives of black citizens are as important as the lives of white police officers, then God bless them.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 4:13 pm ¶
LM wrote:
Kim, you mean Ice-T, as part of Body Count?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cop_Killer_(song)
Wendi and atlasien, sharp comments.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 5:21 pm ¶
Cerise wrote:
Hello, everybody – first comment on this blog. For my part, I’m very new to hip-hop and am still figuring out my preferences pertaining to artists and content. I’m not going to sport with your collective intelligences by trying to guess why anyone of any color would buy this or that, but I can tell you that for myself, I buy what’s excellent musically (and I’m finding that there’s so much of it) and as non-destructive as possible. And, yes, part of the reason I listen to hip-hop is to understand a lifestyle that I’m very unfamiliar with. Does that pertain to the discussion, do you think? I’m not a voyeur or an escapist – I’m just hoping that greater understanding is part of the solution to America’s race problem. Our parasite.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 6:22 pm ¶
LM wrote:
CVK — Justin Ross is a current delegate in the Maryland House. If he’s a candidate it’s as an incumbent running for re-election.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 7:19 pm ¶
Bronze Trinity wrote:
Actually I really want to know why White people are buying gangsta rap? If they didn’t buy it then the companies would lose way too much money and then they would produce something else. Really, what is so appealing to people about reading about crimminals, drug dealers, and the ghetto for someone so far removed from that life? A lot of us Black people are debating and arguing over the merits of hip hop but we are not the largest consumers. Atleast some of us have the excuse that its Black music and keeps us connected with our culture (instead of say listening to heavy metal or country music). But why do White people like it so much?
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 7:30 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:
And another question for everyone appaulding the Ross article , Why should black people care what white people think of them?
I am not a fan of commerical rap music but there are choices for people if they only use them. Do you censor Black artists who write erotica, pin – up art or any music that does not
uplift the race? Don’t get me wrong, I love music like Sly , EWF, Curtis Mayfield but I also love Millie Jackson, Blowfly and Red Foxx. Black People need to look from the inside out, we spend way too much time trying to disprove white people’s sterotypes of us.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 7:38 pm ¶
Aerik wrote:
Stop listening to rap if you’re not intent on publicly criticizing it.
Criticize it publicly at every opportunity (basically whenever you hear it being played by a friend or somebody humming the tune while ignoring the sexist, racist, violent lyrics).
When you see an amateur trying to give out free demo cd’s at a gas station or something — and young white guys carrying over-priced sugar water are the main target here — Tell them how this isn’t going to help them improve their lives.
Stop being so fucking afraid of using the word “nigger” even when all you want to do is talk about the use of the word “nigger.” Don’t ever let anybody think they own words or that “nigga” really changes anything. Related it to pants hanging around the knees. Why doesn’t FUBU make that shit? Black kids won’t buy it. Try to get it through people’s heads that the ‘ghetto’ thing is another form of bullying.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 8:26 pm ¶
NancyP wrote:
PT Barnum, or someone similar, said, “you can never underestimate the taste of the public.” Violent trash sells, whether it is hip-hop and coded “black” or futuristic shoot’em movies coded “white”.
Individuals can refuse to spend money on trash. Will a guilt campaign get them to do so? Doubtful. Those who see the commercial gangsta rap as b.s. already are avoiding buying it.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 9:18 pm ¶
Bronze Trinity wrote:
Eric you ask “And another question for everyone appaulding the Ross article , Why should black people care what white people think of them?”
Well I care because everyone I have ever worked for is White and most of my co-workers are. My teachers and professors are too. If they all think that I am probably poor, uneducated, from the ghetto, with a criminal background then that is going to affect me isn’t it? If this wasn’t a big deal then no one would ever discuss the problem of stereotypes because they wouldn’t be a problem. Stereotypes and prejudice are the basis of discrimination so thats why Black people care what White people think. If all White people know are negative stereotypes about us then they are more likely to discriminate against us.
In Canada Black people make up 1.2% of the population so what most Canadians know about Black people comes from the media. So yes, smaller groups with less power in society need to care about what the majority group in power thinks about them because that majority group can use that information to harm the minority group.
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 10:18 pm ¶
Mike wrote:
I can’t get into the whole bash rap trend when so many people are ignorant of the art form. What you here today is the equal of a big budget hollywood movie. These guys don’t speak for there hood they hopped on one aspect of it and rode it out because some one was willing to buy it. The same reason you see Bruce Willis’s old ass jumping out of buildings in the movies is the same reason you see Snoop Dogg talking about the gang bang, MONEY. If you really know hip-hop than you know how diverse it is from Will Smith, Afroman, UGK, Outkast to Talib Kweli there is something for every one. If you love the music you’ll find it. But getting bent out of shape with hardcore rap is like getting mad with action/crime/drama movies there there for entertainment purposes only your suppose to use your “suspension of disbelief” sense long enough to enjoy the art when it’s over back to reality. If your a rapper three albums deep and your still talking about trapping, banging, and hustleing ect, ect, than your faking it. The kids in the ghetto know that. And any one who has spent real time in a ghetto knows that the hard core raps out today is about as relevant to the ghetto as the mafia is to the entire history of Italy. People live the ups and downs of life in the ghetto like they do in the suburbs, working class neighborhoods, trailer parks and barrios. What you here on the radio is far from the voice of the people, but true hip hop still is, something that other art forms such as afro-punk, rock, ect (see surburban blacks with issues) cant be.
And it is never, NEVER good when one group of people tries to tell another about themselves. The only concern whites display for issues like these are when there kids start sagging there pants and start spitting N’s, B’s and H’s all over the place. Than RAP becomes an issue. so yeah Ross’s artilce was well informed but he is still an outsider looking in. You don’t like the music do what blk people are quietly doing now anyway
“Turn Off The Radio, Turn Off That Bulls#@t”
-DEAD PREZ-
Posted 11 Sep 2007 at 10:21 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:
(quote mike) true hip hop still is, something that other art forms such as afro-punk, rock, ect (see surburban blacks with issues) cant be.
Sorry Mike but I disagree with that statement. Blacks have been playing rock, punk, and other forms of music ever since it’s inception by good we created American Music, So that argument falls flat on the simple logic. Hip- Hop is indeed a diverse genre the audience who buys albums from Talib Kweli, Mos Def, MF Doom are white backpackers and techno heads. The problem is the media and it’s various interests want to promote and present only one kind of Black Music and that’s coon & B.S. and Cooon- Hop.
Snoop, 50, AND others know where their bread is buttered and like Mantan Moreland , Stephin Fetchit and Butterfly Mc Queen will pander to that auidence of detractors and supporters all for MONEY palin and simple. While people like Amy Winehouse, Simply Red are celebrated deservedly for creating great R&B music and merging Hip- Hop beats with classic Motown, Jazz and Soul production.
Mike I am going to say this with great sadness the biggest problem in Black Music in 2007 is accepting Black Musical diversity amongst black people themselves. Black Alternative music is nearly 40 years old and unlike the 70’s and early 80’s you can’t find a power chord, guitar solo or musical expirmentation on the Black Charts outside of the occasional Prince jam in the last 15 years.
It is time that African- Americans in 2007 accept musical diversity and stop being bullied by the “black music nazis” who only want to us to hear two styles of music and radio and t.v. who promotes a 8- 34 demographic. That would do more to quiet the questions of sexism , violence, and gangsterism in Black Music when people have the choice to listen to a variety of songs on “Urban Radio”.
Posted 12 Sep 2007 at 4:24 am ¶
gatamala wrote:
I’m going to agree w/ eric @ 19 (!!!).
I would narrow the demographic to about 18 years old.
I detect a note of “black authenticity is….”
true hip hop still is, something that other art forms such as afro-punk, rock, ect (see surburban blacks with issues) cant be.
By this logic hip hop would be urban (b/c blacks don’t live anywhere else right?) folks with issues?
Why can’t urban folks relate to other forms of music?
It’s disingenuous to pretend that the urban/underclass does NOT patronize the artists that produce the commercial material at issue. Sheer numbers will explain why they are not the dominant consumers, but seriously, if these folks were really buying Talib Kweli as opposed to Hurricane Chris, corporate ghetto voyeurs would try a new marketing tack.
I believe the Roots, Kane & MC Lyte sold out the 9:30 club. Any bets as to who WON’T be there en masse??? It’s not in a stadium out in west hell (SHAW!) and the tickets are certainly cheaper than sneaks. The “it’s too expensive” argument of megatours does NOT apply. This also speaks to the lack of respect between generations in hip hop.
Make no mistake about it the backpack/techno/hipster set rolls deep IF NOT PREDOMINATES at a Dead Prez show. Let’s not even talk about the turntablists. Or is that no longer authentic?!
In regards to eric’s statements on self-inflicted pigeon-holing: we have to take responsibility for the corner we have painted ourselves in (awkward I know). The false construct of authentic black experience as poor/working class and urban leaves no place for any other experience, thus silencing those voices that may also speak on universal themes. Ben Harper, Robert Randolph…
I do agree with your statement regarding when the parents become “concerned”. Where is the concern for the conditions that may give rise to the music???
Posted 12 Sep 2007 at 11:27 am ¶
anna wrote:
It matters because white people in the USA have to do a lot of work to find any contemporary African American cultural expression that is not about criminality, sexual degradation, or materialism (including Oprah). It matters becuse the mainstream white corporate media and black enablers (so-called moguls with little actual power) present only this image of Black Americans to the world. If you think its bad in the USA, Canada or UK, visit anywhere else in the world.
From my own experience in Latin America, ordinary people are being bombarded on TV and radio by hip-hop and reggaeton. Many of them(if not most), unsophisticated about media and corporations, see this as African Americans(not the white US corporations that bought up their media) trying to stomp out their own strong pop or indigenous cultures. All they see is pornography and criminality and their children copying it.
Is it any different in Asia or Africa?
Posted 12 Sep 2007 at 11:58 am ¶
eric daniels wrote:
Gatamala (!!!) lolol thanks, I think when Chuck D said the Hip- Hop was Black America’s CNN that became a problem because it left itself open to critcism from all quarters of American society when many of the negative images came out courtesy of N.W.A. Luke, and others. Remember Living Colour, Fishbone and Alternative Black Music was begining to make inroads , had Black Radio and our other media outlets
had included this music along with our veterans and the up and comers “Gangsta Rap” still would have happened but there would have been balance on the radio ,video and the black charts and that type of music would have gone back into the underground like any other trend.
Posted 12 Sep 2007 at 5:41 pm ¶
Mike wrote:
The reason hip-hop is still relative to urbane blk people is that it’s are still there. While rock punk ect may have sprouted from blks those roots have longed been uprooted and planted else where. Like Jazz and Blues which all started among the poor the moment a buck was turned the music took two roads
1- ministrel
2- elitest.
Both of which lead right out of the hands of the people who created it. What significant art form has come out of the suburbs? It’s either other art forms rehashed or intellectualized. How are you going to blame some one for not buying into some watered down version of something they created and have moved on from like Amy Winehouse, Simply Red, and all the other blued eyed souls, eminem wannabes, black rockers and punkers.
And no you wont find to many blacks going to the high browed rap concerts because when you come from a hard scrabbled neighbor hood where life is a stuggle you want to cut up and have fun as opposed to being preached to. Your tring to get laid for the night not saved.
It’s also easier to relate to a pen and a pad and a beat machine which in the long run is cheaper than buying a guitar and finding someone willing to come to your hood to teach you how to use it.
Posted 12 Sep 2007 at 7:14 pm ¶
Beni wrote:
First thing I think people need to do is make a distinction. The Roots and 50 Cents are both hip hop acts but the content and the body of work are so different. I’m a black guy who hardly listens to mainstream hip hop because I got tired of all the guns,drugs, and hatred of women in the content being released. I listen to mostly dance and Electronica and that’s what appeals to me. This leads me to a point that some posters brought up earlier and that is in this society, once you are black, there is an expectation that you should only like Hip hop and R&B which is BS if you ask me. I think telling the artists and the labels to check their content is stupid because the objective if the labels is to sell stuff to concumers. If the consumer is willing to drop money for what the label is willing to offer then it is what it is. The beauty of free markets is that the provider will always dance to the tune of an EDUCATED consumer.
Posted 12 Sep 2007 at 11:21 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:
Mike that’s a lame excuse, I grew up in the hood and out of my five friends one liked NWOBHM (New Wave of British Heavy Metal)bands like Iron Maiden , Motorhead and Judas Priest another one of my friends loved Kraftwerk and The Clash, I loved New Romantic Bands like Roxy Music and Duran Duran the oldest of us like AC/DC and Led Zeppelin and we all loved R&B and early Hip- Hop and if you had our ghetto blasters you would hear every single band while we were hanging out.
Rap music may have been created in the Bronx but those black and latino brothas and sistas who pioneered and gave Hip- Hop’s it’s golden age it were college educated and/or middle class. Trick Daddy or 50 Cent do not have the intellect to have birthed that music and helped it survived in the early days. If anything had someone like Dre or Suge came into Hip- Hop it would have stayed very much ghettoized . Chuck D was a college grad Will Smith had a chance to go to M.I.T. until ‘Girls of the World ain’t nothing but trouble’ blew up and he decided to go into show buisness.
It was people like college- educated visionaries like Russell Simmons , Rick Rubin, Chuck D, Andre Harell and very savvy middle- class black & latin kids who shepared this music into the worldwide phenomeon that it is today. I came from poverty and it’s insulting to assume that all poor black people are so base and simple- minded and like violent & sexist imagery. And I still go into the hood from time to time you do hear some Black Kids who have Korn and Fall Out Boy along with Beyonce and Hip- Hop, Downloading and the Internet has closed that musical gap.
Mike either you live in the burbs or you are just sprouting rhetoric to defend a losing argument, Fishbone, Dug Pinnock of King’s X, Bad Brains, P-Funk and memebers of Mother’s Finest came from the Hood so that argument that these people got the music from living in the burbs is another empty argument.
Posted 13 Sep 2007 at 1:46 am ¶
gatamala wrote:
This is my last comment here (I think)
Rap music may have been created in the Bronx but those black and latino brothas and sistas who pioneered and gave Hip- Hop’s it’s golden age it were college educated and/or middle class.
DMC = ST. JOHNS Uni-ver-si-ty
De La Soul = middle class Long Island
David Banner = college educated, maybe MA? He plays it down.
And no you wont find to many blacks going to the high browed rap concerts because when you come from a hard scrabbled neighbor hood where life is a stuggle you want to cut up and have fun as opposed to being preached to. Your tring to get laid for the night not saved.
It’s also easier to relate to a pen and a pad and a beat machine which in the long run is cheaper than buying a guitar and finding someone willing to come to your hood to teach you how to use it.
-The venue I referenced above, the 9:30 club in DC (SHAW!) is not high brow!!!!!! It is in a black neighborhood!!! Perhaps a little less cutting up (shooting) and a little more focus could alter that hardscrabble existence. Highbrow venues don’t want folks there anyway b/c of insurance rates. Let’s not pretend that this element that you reference has not ruined the hip hop experience with violence.
-If they don’t want to be “preached to” (euphemism for anything that discusses how not to make a sad reality worse instead of reveling in degradation) then folks will REALLY hate old school hip hop. Hell, no wonder they don’t show up at Dead Prez!!! No wonder they won’t be at the Roots!!!! I always thought the video/song Never Do was too much!
-The 2 turntables & a mic people are the descendants of the people who taught themselves to pick a 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand guitar, hammer out a tune on an out of tune hand me down piano (in rural MS), brought & adapted the banjo, guira/os, congas or bang plastic buckets. Many percussive instruments come from simple tools or gourds. A kid from the “hood” does not need to plunk down money for a vintage Fender Stratacaster to play the blues or rock music.
mike, I am greatly disturbed by the tenor of your comments that links “authentic blackness” to urban and poor. Not only is it personally offensive, it is an outright lie b/c it flies in the face of black history. Don’t try to take a net negative, recast and excuse and turn it into a positive.
Yes, every time we create something others will jump on it. That does not mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater.
To wit, PE’s new album:
How You Sell Soul to a Soulless People Who Sold Their Soul?
Posted 13 Sep 2007 at 9:19 am ¶
Mike wrote:
Daniels
Rap did not start off with P.E Run DMC or Will Smith check your history. True the suburban black had there hand in the creation but to say that it was the genisis or the singular driving force is staight B.S. A quick glance of black music history in general would have told you thats a lie. Kool Herc, Krs-one, Busy Bee, and there contemporaries, are very much urbane and there is a big diffrence between creating the music and packaging and selling it which is what men like Russel and Andre Hall did. In fact you can trace everything right and wrong with consumerism and hip hop that the opened the doors for.
And yeah man Im hood, grew up in east new york and my ghetto pass is in excellent standing, so please do’nt try to pull rank. You can also stop your lying now bro, your as hood Laura Bush. You can tell by the way you got bent out of shape that this is not the first time some one pulled your card for your music choices.
And my point is that there is nothing wrong with other art forms but if no one wants to listen to it than no one wants to listen to that bulls@#t. Who are you to say that these other forms need to be forced down some ones throat under the guise of opening your mind? It does not need to be played out on the radio for people to find it. If they want to listen to it they will seek it out. It’s People like you who want to put a tag on everything that people cant enjoy the d@#n music.
And homeboy I clearly stated
” While rock punk ect may have sprouted from blks those roots have longed been uprooted and planted else where. Like Jazz and Blues…”
I did’nt say the artists did not come from the hood as you staight out lied:
“Mike either you live in the burbs or you are just sprouting rhetoric to defend a losing argument, Fishbone, Dug Pinnock of King’s X, Bad Brains, P-Funk and memebers of Mother’s Finest came from the Hood” I said there support comes from the burbs.
gatamala
“mike, I am greatly disturbed by the tenor of your comments that links “authentic blackness” to urban and poor. Not only is it personally offensive, it is an outright lie b/c it flies in the face of black history. Don’t try to take a net negative, recast and excuse and turn it into a positive.”
And where did you see me question blackness?? Where? You feeling guilty about something? I questioned the importance of other art forms to the black kid from the ghetto. And no you don’t have to have to shell out a lot of money to buy a guitar but it would help if some one was there to teach you how to use it or if blues and rock were still relevant that way you would see some one like you still playing it in numbers. And yes people have the right to want to blow off steam and not shell hard earned money to be preached to.
Posted 13 Sep 2007 at 5:54 pm ¶
Orville wrote:
The kids in the suburbs interested in hip hop do not want to “learn” about black people what they want are getting is a 21st century of the Minstrel show.
Kanye West is kind of important in the sense that he’s original. West is not poor his mother was a professor at a university and hsi father also held a professional job. West is like the new image of the black male rapper. Is it more positive? Maybe to a certain extent. I expect to see 30 more rip off of West in the next few years. West is different though that I just don’t get the sense that he’s a total puppet like 50 CENT is.
The new Minstrel show is all about listening to music that’s considered “dirty” or “forbidden” its about upsetting their parents and thinkng they are cool. So they listen to black rappers that many of them aren’t even from the under class. There are plenty of rappers that are studio gangstas. Ice Cube for example although he was raised in Compton his parents were faculty members of UCLA.
Instead of the rappers being in blackface they are simply perpetuating the same racist anti black stereotypes for profit. The slave master is the record labels don’t mind because the profits keep on rolling in. 50 CENT tries to come across as intelligent but he’s just the stereotypical black buck. 50 CENT became famous because he was shot nine times. And
Posted 13 Sep 2007 at 10:22 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:
Mike you are so sensitive about people calling you out about Black folks listening choices. the era of the only authenic Black is a ghetto thug or fablous person is being challenged everyday by blacks of all classes. Inner -City blacks could not have made this music popular in the underground or mainstream because many do not have the connections or buisness savvyto start labels, open up clubs and promote those acts. Kool Herc and all those people who started this culture were middle – class to educated blacks even though they lived in the hood .
CMB, 50 and other groups were 3 rd generation hip- hop heads who benefitted from those black and latin brothers and sistas who were smart enough to organize their culture so they could produce music and culture that the ‘coon rappers’ and their idiot fans benefitted from . Hip -Hop has no agenda it can anything you want it to be, if all you want to do is listen to sexism, violence, and thugging Mike you are perfectly entilted to listen to that crap but the people who own and promote the images that are shot out on t.v. are white music exec and their black A&R puppets who coon and perform and has stifled Black Music for the past 15 years.
That cannot be debated by your encessant rants about defending coon party rap or BET and Black Radio’s refusal to play a variety of sounds on Black radio. And you can buy a guitar and amp combo for less than it costs for a pair of Kobe Bryant shoes. And I learned how to play bass like Jimi Hendrix, Boosty Collins and most musicans during the past 100 years, I listened to cd’s , records and bought books at music stores so that excuse that you need a music teacher is bogus if you want it bad enough.
Posted 14 Sep 2007 at 1:04 am ¶
Mike wrote:
Daniels
you cant seem to let go of the whole “authentic black” theme of your argument. Where in any of my post did i say hood was the sign of being authentic black?
And as for this:
“Inner -City blacks could not have made this music popular in the underground or mainstream because many do not have the connections or buisness savvyto start labels, open up clubs and promote those acts. Kool Herc and all those people who started this culture were middle – class to educated blacks even though they lived in the hood .”
Dont have the buisness savy, huh?
Middle class educated blacks living in the hood, huh?
Now I know you’ve never been to the hood to even come out your 2nd mouth with that mess. The only thing your missing “BRO” is a white sheet and a hood. You need to go see Dr. D’s and call it a day.
Posted 14 Sep 2007 at 8:45 pm ¶
simmie wrote:
“I also wonder what would happen if rap artists started talking about selling dope in the suburbs, or shooting white people or beating down white men. Would rap’s comfortable white fans continue to consume it? I suspect the record companies wouldn’t even sell it. Like the majority of people who buy rap music, the majority of people who get rich off it are white. That sort of thing might hit a little too close to home for hip-hop’s fans and profiteers.”
***LOUD APPLAUSE***
Posted 15 Sep 2007 at 12:23 am ¶
Ange wrote:
off topic but….
Eric Daniels, I love you! When I read your comments, Nancy Wilson’s Loving You goes off in my soul.
Posted 16 Sep 2007 at 8:09 am ¶
Cyrus wrote:
Hello everyone. I have lived the culture of hip hop for a very long time, as many of you have. Coming across many younger generations and those who are barely listening/understanding the culture of hip hop is that it does not matter how long you have lived hip hop but HOW MUCH you live hip hop.
I hope those that are true to the culture and music of hip hop remember that it has always been a battle, whether for our rights or for our history or for our future.
As for Daniels and Mike: I think you both have good views and truly sense the need to defend the history of the culture. But both of you are the evidence of how split up the culture has become. Mike I feel you on the whole point about suburban kids (maybe they are/maybe they are not posers) and how hip hop’s truest form maybe in the city (i like that better than urban or inner-). Daniels I also support your views that black media should offer more alternative music than hip hop.
The business side of hip hop- I hate hate talking about it. As important as I know politics to be, I know that true essence of the hip hop culture has always been against mainstream politics/culture. So i understand the hatred of the record labels and business people. Is business/money the only thing that will keep a culture alive (Daniels)? I don’t think so. Culture is a way of life…and regardless true hip hop soul will live it day by day. eat, sleep, talk, think, walk, etc. hip hop.
Sadly to say, very little has change about our society when considering hate, racism, stereotypes, politics since the hay-days of hip hop.
But I think we can all agree that hip hop is a culture that we must cherish, acknowledge, and guide to the best of our abilities. Business people, record labels, A & Rs, are just like drug lords. They are trying to make our culture too organized when hip hop stems from the power of creativity, community, art, and spontaniouty (ignore my spelling). And for those “posers” I just feel sad and pity them because I think they are already lost as a person.
Finally, I could only think of one thing to truly say and that is to keep the culture and the idea of hip hop alive no matter if you are the last person to believe it because ideas never die (and I think we all know what hip hop I am talking about).
peace & bless everyone.
Posted 20 Sep 2007 at 2:39 am ¶