We Want You. . . To Think Just Like Us

by Racialicious special correspondent Wendi Muse

When most people think of American imperialism, they think of planting the stars and stripes deep into the soil of foreign lands. They think of economic dominance, the forced removal of government leaders, the exploitation of labor and resources.

But what causes less protest is often a form of Ameri-centric thought that stirs in the minds of many who fight its more tangible effects: Identity Imperialism.

A few weeks ago, friend and fellow blogger Malena (of Racewire) and I had a heavy-duty e-mail conversation about the politics of race in Brazil. She had written a short response to an article musing about how identity works within a nation of such vast diversity. While many view Brazil as a racial and ethnic utopia, Malena points out, this myth often clouds what she proposed was de facto apartheid.

Considering my having been to several major cities in Brazil and my continued interest in studying the country and its many cultures, I slightly disagreed with her assertion of apartheid insofar as race was concerned, especially considering that apartheid is explicitly linked to institutions and may be too strong of a word to apply to socially dictated segregation, but our discussion made me think about issues that went beyond the article she had deconstructed.

I wondered if by making external judgments of a society’s handling of race, were many professed anti-racists and supporters of national sovereignty free from colonial influence engaging in a dangerous process no different from that which they rejected?

The answer, for me, was a solid yes.

My response wasn’t always so firm. During my senior year of college, I dated a Brazilian guy who was convinced that I wasn’t black, and I just didn’t get it. In my exchange with Malena, I explained:

a brazilian guy I dated would always be like…wendi you are not black…and i’d be like, dude, wtf? of course i am…but he always said that where he was from, i wouldn’t be…and indeed that was the case…blackness there is like…100% african…and even then, they refer to themselves in colors…like dark brown…

Indeed, in Brazil there are many many more terms for racial classifications than there are in the United States:

The concept of race is very flexible in Brazil. People who would be considered black in Europe or in the United States in Brazil get a variety of designations, some euphemistic, including pardo (the official designation for mixed race), mulato, mulato escuro (dark mulatto), mulato claro (light mulatto), and moreno. President Fernando Henrique Cardoso whom no one would call black, says that he has a foot in the kitchen, meaning that he has black ancestors.

While the “one-drop-rule” makes the whitest American a black as long as there is a black ancestor somewhere, a lack of precision in the Brazilian race classification makes the color question a personal choice, seemingly with infinite possibilities.

Somehow, I had failed to remember this, as if suffering from a total mental lapse, when Paulo challenged my idea of blackness. Having been raised in the United States, especially considering my hometown was in the South, being black was really clear to me, and had been for a long time until the aforementioned (and a few other prior) interruptions that made me seriously question what race meant beyond my self-centered American perspective.

Race is to Paulo as snow is to Inuits. And while I had heard of terms like “high yellow,” “red boned,” and the infamous paper bag test while growing up in the South, there were far more racial categories than I could imagine and that I had ever learned because of the meaning of race in my country of origin. Race in the United States was ultimately determined by Puritanical thoughts on miscegenation, the antebellum one drop rule to increase the slave population, and the polarizing aftermath of the melting pot theories espoused by pseudo-scientists involved in phrenology and eugenics. Even though euphemistic, color-coded, race-specific categories were thrown around as terms of endearment within different racial and ethnic communities, our American history seemed to do little beyond encouraging simplistic divisions in the most explicit ways.

Brazil and many countries within Latin America framed race in a different way. Maintaining white dominance in positions of power was still the ultimate goal, but in a fatalistic twist, miscegenation was encouraged as a means of doing so. Whites of Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian descent (and later, Germans) were recruited from Europe to work alongside people of African and indigenous origin, and race-mixing, though not seen necessarily as an ideal, was not frowned upon in the same way as it was in the United States.

In many South American countries, slavery followed what I call the “work them to death” model, meaning that the health of slaves was of little concern as the African slave population was frequently replenished, whereas in the U.S., we tended to follow more of the “keep them alive as long as you can and make them breed” model, which subsequently led to a drastically different treatment of race and miscegenation. If one had an extremely short life expectancy, as slaves did in Brazil, for example, their personal lives were of little concern to their masters. Of course, they were still closely monitored, as were slaves in the U.S., but the emphasis on same-race slave breeding was not as heavy considering their population received frequent “refreshing” from African countries with which Brazil maintained constant slave trading. The more favorable result for their descendants, if they happened to create any, was for them to be mixed (and ultimately bringing the population closer to non-black majority) as opposed to their being black, as in the United States, where actual slave trading ended earlier than in Brazil.

A simple varied perspective about the economic elements of slavery, just as one of several other factors, played a vital role in race relations in both countries mentioned above. This history is something that cannot and should be ignored, yet we, as Americans, tend to go blindly into assessing race in other regions, and most certainly in expressing how immigrants to the United States should consider race themselves. In discussions (from an American perspective) related to race in other countries, there tends to be a forced application of American racial categories and norms, as if our identity grid fits each racial landscape without a need to vary its shape. And though we like to pretend that race is clear-cut in the United States, it’s obvious that concepts of race are more mutable than we like to admit.

A slip of the tongue from a baseball player, a new vocab word from a golf pro, or the intelligent musings of Ms. Peterson remind us that there fails to be a set definition of different racial groups and what these categories mean to their respective “members” in the U.S., so why do we so self-righteously tend to assert otherwise?

I promised myself I would never write about this woman, but I think Mariane Pearl provides the perfect example of someone pushing lots of red, white, and blue buttons by not checking the racial box people want her to. I was disturbed to see how so many of the same people who abhorred being boxed in by antiquated concepts of race were quick to hypocritically pummel Ms. Pearl with equally restrictive ideas. How she chooses to identify is a personal decision, one upon which, in my opinion, we have very little right to infringe. On an even more broad level, the fact that so many people of multiracial backgrounds have begun to align themselves with one racial group of their heritage (as opposed to identifying as multiracial) just shows that there may be a very real folding to such pressures to pick and choose an identity, to be what society expects based solely on one or more physical features, a shade of skin, or whatever else happens to allow the identity Gestapo to force their next victims to submit.

It makes me wonder if there is a happy medium. Can we empower people of color around the world while simultaneously avoiding being cardholders in a monopoly on racial identity? Will we ever be able to expand our views on race without losing sight of our own domestic need to increase racial equality?

I personally think finding this center boils down to a simple matter of respect. Much like with U.S.-based models of other theories like feminism and democracy, the attempt to apply race-based empowerment and equality is empty without our fully surveying deep-seated cultural elements of the host nation. For example, upon following up with Paulo and his thoughts on race, he explained that he saw nothing wrong with blackness, but instead wondered why I did not honor all aspects of my ancestral heritage? Why did blackness trump everything else? I attempted to explain that it was a political choice, but in the end, I wasn’t sure if my answer was so clear anymore. I also began to recognize that American-based coverage of race matters in other nations rarely focused on the very powerful movements sparking all over the world. Our handling of race outside the United States seemed to follow one of two lines of thought:

We either compare their situation to ours in a negative light, as if America could offer a definite answer, when we are still asking elementary-level questions of our own . . .

Or

We take the “grass is greener” approach, and make the handling of race in other countries appear completely unblemished and devoid of any possible moments of instability or regression.

Instead of pushing an Ameri-centric perspective on race, what Malena and I termed race-based imperialism, it may do us some good to open our minds to incorporate other ideas, seizing the opportunity to actually learn from other countries as opposed to denigrating and quickly criticizing their ideas on race because we fail to see all the culture-specific more nuanced elements that get lost in translation. The politics of race should not necessarily boil down to good vs. bad. It’s far more complex than that. If we want to fool ourselves into thinking otherwise, it’s nothing but American imperial arrogance at its worst.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Links 10 AUG 2007 « latin american princesa {LAP} on 10 Aug 2007 at 6:09 am

    [...] We Want You. . . To Think Just Like UsWendi Muse on Identity Imperialism [...]

  2. Latina Viva on 13 Aug 2007 at 9:22 pm

    Is There Apartheid in Brazil? Racial Identity and Racism From a Brazilian Point of View…

    On Racialicious:We want you… to think just like us. A few weeks ago, friend and fellow blogger Malena (of Racewire) and I had a heavy-duty e-mail conversation about the politics of race in Brazil. She had written a short response……

  3. My black is not your black « latin american princesa {LAP} on 14 Aug 2007 at 10:49 am

    [...] Is There Apartheid in Brazil? Racial Identity and Racism From a Brazilian Point of View discusses shades of race in Brazil, in response to another article questioning the validity of “Ameri-centric” views on race, We Want You. . . To Think Just Like Us. [...]

  4. Euro-centrism and matters of context « latin american princesa {LAP} on 29 Aug 2007 at 5:33 am

    [...] posted a video from Aljazeera on female soccer players in Egypt. I immediately thought about the Ameri-centric discussion that was also recently featured on [...]

  5. Bigot-Proof Vest: Are You Wearing Yours? at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 13 Sep 2007 at 7:50 am

    [...] “of color” in the United States may be “white” in terms of power elsewhere, as I touched on in a previous post. This being said, that individual may have never experienced oppression in his/her society of [...]

Comments

  1. Kaywil wrote:

    WOW! This is solid work. Thank you for sharing this. I agree – examining other world perspectives may help to frame our own understandings of race and culture. If we can improve upon what we know by this method, then why not? But, as duly pointed out, some may hold on to what they know because of the strong indoctrination of ‘Ameri-centric’ race perspectives within the society. Still, it’s worth the effort…

  2. Stef wrote:

    Right on. It will be important, possibly inevitable, that we break out of our American-centric way of looking at race and identity as the current immigration wave continues, bringing people from all over the world, each with different perspectives. Each place has its own history and framework, each person has her or his own reality.

  3. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Love the piece, Wendi. Exporting the idea of race abroad is difficult, as well as trying to absorb their ideas of race into our set American paradigms.

    I’ll be thinking on this…

  4. Vox wrote:

    This is really interesting. I think that as more people explore and accept or discard a mixed-race identity or multiple racial identities this is something we really need to look into. People shouldn’t feel alienated from part of their heritage or like they have to choose one aspect over another, and, as the USA Today article points out, many multiracial people feel as if they’re pressured to do so.

  5. Fiqah wrote:

    Well-said, Ms. Muse.

  6. Blanky wrote:

    It just reinforces the foolishness of the concept of “race”.

  7. Jonathan wrote:

    Awesome post, and very apt for the audience here.

    It’s easy to fall into the analytical trap you criticize. After all, the U.S. is the major power in a world system stratified by race, among other things. The U.S. and other Western nations do have the power to impose our system of race on other peoples. This happens at the level of culture as well as structure. I was speaking to a friend of mine who studied in Tanzania (doing research on hip hop, no less); she told me that the word “n*gga” (yes, the modified version) is in full effect there, at least among the younger generations.

    So, why not apply our concepts of race to other places? Those people are adopting our concepts anyway, and if not, if their ideas are different, it’s because they just don’t realize how things really are. They don’t see the big picture, or they do but they’re fooling themselves. But those of us with a perspective from the imperial superpower, we know the real score. Don’t we?

    Moreover, the dichotomous structure of race in America has a sort of rhetorical power. It’s black and white. Us vs them. It makes it easy to figure out what side everyone’s on. But whenever something is intellectually easy, it’s usually wrong. I’m not gonna rehash your arguments on why it’s wrong. You put it much better than I would. In fact, I can’t even put the rest of my thoughts together in a coherent sentence, so I’m just gonna leave it at that.

  8. Jonathan wrote:

    This reminds me of a discussion I once had on human rights non-government organizations. Many such org’s (for example, Amnesty International) are based in the West/North and have a corresponding perspective, even if they do work in the East/South, which they often do. This can lead to friction with local organizations and a flawed understanding of the relative importance of different rights in those locales. I wonder if org’s dealing more directly with racial issues also manifest this tendency and lack a clear comprehension of racial identities in the arena of operation.

  9. Robin wrote:

    Great piece. A friend of mine is looking at social structures of race in Southeast Asia, I’m planning to pass this article along to her.

    Minor semantic quibble. “Inuit” is plural already (saying Inuits is like saying peoples). The singular is Inuk.

  10. Wendi Muse wrote:

    Hey robin. Thanks for the correction. It,s funny bc I was actually trying really hard not to make a mistake there and even looked it up in the dictionary to avoid error. There it said that inuit or inuits was appropriate pluralization of the word, BUT I have seen variations like this before re: appropriate culture-specific nomenclature. SO either my dictionary is wrong or there are more forms of inuit vocab than I thought! Thanks again :-)

  11. al wrote:

    this is a great piece! i think most americans don’t realize that our racial categories are not the ‘norm’ or that there isn’t some kind of race standard. but maybe that has to do with us also seeming to think race is some concrete natural occurence.

  12. georgia wrote:

    The way that race is interpreted in Brazil should be extremely interesting to most Americans. As a light skinned mixed person whose father is remarried to a black Brazilian I was really fascinated when she told me about how I would be classified in Brazil and the differences between Brazil and the US.

    I think that Americans don’t usually think that other countries are as diverse as our own and that they also have complex social classifications for people.

    When we see these differences I hope that it helps people realize how useless and ridiculous racial classifications really are.

  13. Michelle wrote:

    Your post was really thoughtful, Wendi…as always!!!

    I am wondering about something however. Aren’t we just talking about the different shades of white supremancy? I think your arguement of Ameri-centric thought is excellent and I love the term “identity imperialism”. However, aren’t most people of color, the descendants of African people throughout the diaspora to be specific, all victims of White domination and supremacy? Therefore, while your arguement is valid I ask, with all respect (because I love the article) what is the end game? Where is the value of this line of questioning? Do we think that by validating all the branches of European imperialism (if you will) we can find more solutions to destroying the root?

    I have read the article a few times and maybe I missed the point of the inquiry. Of course, all inquiries are valid so maybe it is just for the sake of the question itself.

    Also, I say this hesitantly….but, it seems that most other nations (with a history of large numbers of displaced, enslaved Africans) have the same deeply ingrained disdain for blackness and the same reverence for whiteness, but they seem to recognize and categorize all the shades and peoples in between, giving them status based upon the two polarities of blackness and whiteness. I would hate for our inquiry to simply give some of us license to claim “non” black status based upon the non-African portions of our lineage. There is a part of me that feels that if you would like to celebrate your Irish lineage, for instance, you can still do so in creative and beautiful ways and still call yourself Black, still identify as Black. Is naming oneself the only way, or rather the most imporant way, to adequately celebrate the other parts of oneself that are not “Black”?

  14. Wendi Muse wrote:

    hey michelle,

    i think that’s my beef with american ideas of race. we tend to simplify for the sake of ease. the one drop rule is, whether we like it or not, steeped in racism. it began that way and no matter how much we want to reclaim it for political purposes (i.e. so we can have more numbers to attribute to the black community, for example), it’s still racist because it denies people the right to self-identify.

    i wonder how much does a name really change things? for example, according to paulo, i would have been considered mulata escura in some regions of brazil and morena in an area populated by whites. for me, it makes no difference. i am who i am. i recognize, however, that some would take such categories and run with it, not realizing that they are giving equal weight to aspects of your identity and not saying you are NOT BLACK, but saying you are a mixed of x, y, and z AND black.

    i get tired of hearing americans say that other countries, in their terms of identity, are being racist as our racial terms are little more than that. it seems to be overlooking an aspect of another nation’s culture that is inherently culture and history-specific. we wouldn’t want people coming over here telling us we’re not whatever, so why do we feel it’s ok to pass that judgment onto others?

    it seems hypocritical.

    but ugh going back, sorry i sidetracked! i think that, on the other hand, having so many named may give way to more division. i hear a lot about it from my mom and from people who are creoles (in this case, black, french, and native american) from Lousiana. just as we talk about discrimination aganist darker skinned black people, my family and a lot of creole people i know experienced hatred from whites, but then a similar hatred (and mainly distrust) from darker blacks who assumed that their color meant they would be snobby or look down on other blacks, which certainly was not always the case. my mother always tells me of older black patients with whom she works (she is a geriatric social worker) expressing their surprise at how nice she is b/c they thought all light skinned people were uppity and hated black folks. sad, right?

    i think some people read an acceptance of multiracial heritage as a denial of blackness, and i don’t think it’s always that way. it’s certainly not in my case. when i say i’m the slavery remix as i joked about before, i am touching on the kind messed up way my family ended up looking the way that we do. my cousins with light skin and straight hair didn’t get that way because of consensual biracial marriages. they are that way because some slave master couldn’t control his sexual urges. in admitting my (and many other black people’s) multiracial heritage, i’m alluding to a dark reality that some people forget. in many ways, it’s not my separating myself from other blacks, but attempting to acknowledge a shared a very painful past (like saying: “my family may have been “house slaves,” but we had our share of craziness too. we are not all that different”)

    it’s all in how you look at it and what you do with it. i don’t necessarily think it impedes black nationalism or pan -african struggles, but aides it. we are connected in different ways via the diaspora and our difference in appearance doesn’t mean we don’t acknowledge that, despite what people may assume on looks alone.

    so in our shutting down that aspect of conversation, in not acknowledging what we could learn about race from our south american, asian, african, australian, and european people with whom we interact (via research, partnership, friendship, immigration, whatever), we are closing the door on educating ourselves.

    people look at brazil and say wow they hate themselves, but tend to ignore all the really powerful pro-black, pro-african movements going on in places by salvador da bahia in the northeast, where brazil’s largest population of african-descendants lives. i encountered tons more people there who may have identified as mixed, but who had an understanding of african history and the struggles of blacks and african descendants around the world than plenty of people here in the US who identify as black. i don’t know if what you call yourself necessarily has THAT much bearing on your sense of solidarity with people who have a shared ancestry, so i become incredibly angry when i hear americans who may have never been to a place, immediately judging the situation without prior knowledge of the history and people therein (hence my writing the article).

    i DO however, understand where you are coming from about racial categories/names being a means of upward social mobility. i think americans see this and think everyone is like that who doesn’t necessarily identify as straight “black” even though that’s not the case. there are people in the US right now who call themselves black and who have a great disdain of blackness and black people, so at the end of the day, what’s in a name?

  15. Wendi Muse wrote:

    *ok A, sorry that response was so long

    and

    *B, just to clarify, there are also really distinct racial categories within other regions besides those with lots of people of african descent (even though we’re like everywhere). if anyone has additional info on racial categories in other countries, i’d be interested in hearing from you. i only focused on the u.s. and south america (mainly brazil) in this case because the racial diversity there is so blatant and more commonly discussed in pieces on racial categories, but i, by no means, feel that other countries (and regions) should be left out of this discussion…so chip in!

  16. Michelle wrote:

    Hey Wendi and y’all….Wendi, I hope you are still there somewhere….I got a new computer and I am still figuring out the perks and pluses…but it is taking me a minute to get into my routine…

    Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful response. I must say that I have never really seen the name game from that perspective. It is quite illuminating for me, to say the least. It seems to me that we are looking at the same goals, the same end but there are different angles and approaches. At first, you post seemed sort of at odds with my view of things, but after you explained I can see how both our viewpoints can exist on parallel planes/paths.

    If you will indulge me for a moment….

    When Tiger Woods first hit the scene I read about him in a more news oriented version of Right On (I can’t remember the name of the mag). Anyway, in my suburb on the east coast, there weren’t too many young black men who were into tennis, golf, math or science. There was a general conversation about “acting white” and “acting black” and well, you can guess the rest. You were either down or you were like me, “a white girl”. Of course, to my white classmates, I wasn’t really Black because I wasn’t dark, my hair was on the long side, I got good grades and my family had some wealth, relatively speaking. I know that I am belaboring the point by bringing up things that we have all been through, and we got the t-shirt. My point is that my heart soared when I saw that mag with Tiger Woods in it. He was smart, fine, played GOLF and he was Black….it gave me hope, it gave me a renewed sense of purpose in my young life, and yes, I thought I had found my husband. Now, all of those feelings were predicated on the fact that he was Black. He was proof of our collective ability to succeed. Imagine how I felt when he declared himself as something other than Black. In retrospect, putting him on a pedestal was unfair to a young boy just trying to make it. It was unfair to label him a certain way (even though he was in a Black interest mag). In light of your post Wendi, I see how Americentric I was in my thinking.

    I get the bi-racial, multi-ethnic discourse. I get the rhetoric and the reasons. I totally get it. And I really want to get on board. What tugs at me, however, is the fact that the discourse is usually steeped in priveledge. We have the priveledge to spout about race as a social construct, and to dissect the world at large. And of course, that is why I tune into my beloved racialicious daily, because I can. I cannot help, however, but to remember the bare facts of hope….there are many, many hundreds of thousands of people who are disenfranchised…and the inequalities of their lives are based on race…they might be 23% Irish and 34% Native American, but they are Black Americans. If they called themselves something other than Black, I hate to think that if their lives changed it would be because Black is still so repulsive, that the mere claiming of something else, would inspire them to a different way of life. And I KNOW THAT IT IS NOT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING….(I just wanted to be clear about that), but is that a possibility? And what if Barack Obama called himself bi-racial, mixed or mulatto? What would that do to the hope that he inspires? What if Halle Berry called herself bi-racial, mixed or mulutta? Or even Oprah or Michael Jordan? Or Vanessa Williams? What would that do to our history as a people? I know, a person can still be Black and if they were to adopt a less Americentric view on race, be mixed or other terms, but are we really there, yet? Or would those other terms over shadow a person’s identity, and the ability of others to relate to them as Black people.

    Sorry this was so long…..

  17. Wendi Muse wrote:

    no problem about the length, michelle. after all, who am i to talk!?!?!? lol

    anyway, thanks again for your feedback. i can level, completely. on the one hand, i say that no matter what one calls oneself, people will interpret his/her race/ethnic background as they choose. even though halle berry calls herself a black woman, and barack often considers himself a black man, their blackness, despite their appearance and their considering themselves a part of the black community, their loyalty is still questioned by people who can’t see past the color of their respective white mothers.

    with regard to whether or not our country is ready…i am not sure. our history is very much to be blamed for that, unfortunately, but i think there will be a time when people of multiple ethnic backgrounds can identify as such without being considered to be engaging in an attempt to deny the aspect of their heritage that doesn’t rank as high in our social stratifications of race.

    i think it’s a matter of how we as a nation will represent people who are “directly” multiracial (i use this meaning both parents are of what our country would consider distinct racial groups…i.e. one black, one asian-american, etc) and those who are ‘indirectly” multiracial (i.e. many black americans, latinos, descendants of multiracial parents, etc). if the media, film, the news, etc, represent such people as members of the poc community without any special privileges due to their mixed race heritage, then we’re fine…

    but as we know, the divide & conquer technique goes into full effect when it comes to discussing race in this country, even down to the minute percentages of white here or black there.

    i don’t entirely blame the media, however, as people of color are often equal players in this game, i.e. by asserting what is ‘really ______ [fill in race or ethnicity here] vs. what’s not, as you mentioned in your comment, or by not trusting multiracial people as loyal and committed members to the struggles people who identify with one or more races in said multiracial people’s respective backgrounds simply because they may not exhibit typical phenotypic characteristics or may not have been raised in and/or socialized within an environment predominately made up of one race or another.

    ugh so it’s hard. i think we should be able to grow as a nation and learn to appropriately accommodate people of many different backgrounds and respect their need to identify as they wish…but doing it without compromising so-called monoracial solidarity may be difficult. it’s a tricky process, and i think in our considering this, it brings up a lot more issues to consider in relation to expanding the definition of specific groups of color or simply identifying as an umbrella group of people of color…what is the best way to unite against institutions that continue to limit them while maintaining distinct cultures???

  18. crista wrote:

    i know i’m joining this late, but to respond also to your post Michelle (though you didn’t ask for it)

    I know for many young Thai’s, Tiger Woods was a huge inspiration and role model as well, and ”claiming” him as thai (not african american) could well be just as “important” as it was for many blacks in america. Particularly as many young thai kids have skin just as ”black” and dark as tiger without the mixed heritage. In a country where light skin is still linked to better/richer/higher class/ more beautiful, the success of someone who looks Thai with dark skin like them, was HUGE for many people. Just to point out that the impact of persons with mixed racial heritage also doesn’t have to be limited to one group as well, and the role model status can cross boundaries.

  19. latinamericanprinces wrote:

    crista, i think you hit the nail on the head!!! crossing boundaries. this is the missing link. how do we not lose our group, but at the same time recognize more categories (as wendi asks)? boundaries are porous. groups interact all the time, yet they also continue to exist.

    when threatened a group may tighten the boundaries. this is the case for blacks and other minorities. “really ______ [fill in race or ethnicity here]” questions reflect a fear of losing the group identity. as we continue to fight racism and discrimination (and sexism) the threat and fear will (hopefully) diminish, opening the way for greater cross-categorization. the truth is we are different things in different places or contexts anyway. i’ve been colombian or hispanic most of my life. in europe i’m “just” american (which i find irritating, why? because I don’t want to lose the other ones).

    anti-americanism is a manifestation of the fear by other nations that america will take over the world and everyone will be americanized.

    within america, white fear of losing group identity is more than about “really white” or “white enough”. there is more at stake in terms of position and power. but that’s a whole discussion that is going on in other posts, so i’ll cut myself off now!

  20. Michelle wrote:

    This is definately a slippery slope…..it feels like a high stakes game of poker, in a way. Do the colored folk embrace the “porous boundaries”, potentially sacrificing ethnic solidarity? Can the colored folks trust each other enough? Will it make a difference in our fight against the isms that plague our peoples?

    You know, the reason why I brought up Tiger is because within the Black community, there is a joke (kinda) “I got Indian in my family”. While that is true for many Black americans, it is usually said in an effort to eschew their Black heritage. As a kid, that is what Tiger sounded like to my ears…I am glad that he was a role model for young Thai people and young people in general. His mixed race heritage doesn’t preclude him from being a role model to anyone…it was the way that he claimed his heritage….it seemed to deny his Blackness, whatever that is….(As a kid, however, I was so sure I knew what Blackness was)

    Wendi, in light of our history, we have a seemingly insurmountable (sp) challenge. Operative words being “in light of our history”. Given the sceptre of white supremacy, we must tread lightly over this issue….especially given old wounds and distrust within our own community.

    By the way, I wanted to say this in a more articulate way, but your mom sounds like a soldier. She is giving an incredible gift to older Black people who have been hurt by (or who have hurt) lighter skinned Black people. She is one by one, cleaning up the casualities of Black America’s color wars.

  21. latinamericanprinces wrote:

    The boundaries are porous and will always be porous unless you live in a bubble. This blog and these exchanges are interactions between different groups. Is it possible to be “less black” for agreeing with a latina or an asian american on some points? Is this latina less Hispanic because she’s “just American” in Europe? Isn’t it more dangerous to remain closed? That seems to me like a slippery slope towards self-segregation or self-stereotyping.

    History does make it difficult, fear and suspicion are very valid points, but history also shows that groups have lived side-by-side without losing distinct cultures for centuries. I read an article about the survival of black, Mexican and Native cultures in the U.S. despite massive oppression and attempted extermination. Already 2+ centuries! Europe is a great current example. The EU has made exchange unprecedented, but the countries still seem to maintain their own unique flavors.

    If we look at culture for what it really is, something we make ourselves in our communities, it’s an empowering approach. “It’s ours and we will make it what we want it to be.” Does that make the idea of many diverse black (or latino, etc.) cultures and communities seem less like a weakness, and more like a strength? The umbrella group can become stronger as the diversity brings more people into the fold. A restricted definition only serves to shut more people out and forcing people to choose seems unfair. It is hard, but trust is always hard. Compassion and respect need to play big roles too. For now, I’m just happy if the dialogue continues. Hopefully eventually solutions will emerge.

    Thanks Racialicious for this space to dialogue!! It’s really great to read all these different ideas and views.

  22. crista wrote:

    i guess i wanted to point out that by choosing not to ONLY identify as black, Tiger was able to help some Thai people be able to embrace THEIR blackness. and to see someone who is sucessful, thai and black all together. to go along with what this article was talking about . people may disagree, but in countries OTHER than america, blackness does not mean ONLY people with heritage/descendants from Africa, or african americans. so i’m saying Tiger was not at all denying his blackness, but embracing blackness of a different quality, one not found in America and one that americans do not even seem to acknowledge. I get what you are saying with your example (i have _____in me. ) people of all races seem to do that .(pilipino: i have spanish in me, i have chinese, etc. etc.) but with tiger it was true. His mom was not only ethinically Thai, but culturally and nationality was thai as well. Straight up from thailand. it wasn’t the same. period. so not only did he have this racial difference, but culture one as well.

    ..if tiger had chosen only to identify himself with that more limited definition of black, he would not be making such a powerful social message in thailand. its not just about being a role model in general in terms of golf, a non-white athlete, etc. but about what he was saying about blackness AND being Thai. something that was very important in thailand to acknowledge, while he was critcized in america. i think hes social message was missed because people felt he was denying that.

    anyway. sorry i keep bring this old discussion up. i just feel that this really highlights wendy’s point about context of race we have being an American point of view that often leaves out other cultures/nations ideas.

  23. Wendi Muse wrote:

    thanks for adding that, crista. and don’t worry about talking about the topic…that’s the point of this comments section…to keep the convo going :-)

    i am glad that you pointed out one of the many variations of the definition of blackness. i have made similar points (via comments) on other articles about how in the uk, “black” was a universal term for anyone of africa/afro-caribbean AND south asian descent…

    i am happy to learn more, so thanks again for contributing your thoughts to this dialogue!

  24. Michelle wrote:

    Totally agree with all you guys…

    If Tiger Woods was trying to encourage his Thai brethren to acknowledge their own version of Blackness and therefore, encouraging his brethren to be proud of who they are as black people then great. I don’t believe for a second that those issues even crossed his mind. If that was a product of his comment, praise God, but I would bet my left toe that he wasn’t thinking about his Thai brethren.

    I could go on and on about Tiger….

    But, I would like to point out that since American Blackness is a creolization of many different peoples, cultures and of course, the different forms of oppressions, it is hard to believe that it will survive in the midst of stronger cultures that seem more defined and that have better access to media outlets.

    But, we will wait and see, won’t we? I so welcome the change, whatever form it takes.

  25. crista wrote:

    I know this discussion is LONG past, but i saw on PBS a show completely relating to this discussion, and the new advent of Affirmative Action in university admissions in brazil. Really good stuff to talk about race, system of racism, etc. in a Brazilian context.

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/brazil2/index.html

  26. Globalistgirl wrote:

    “A simple varied perspective about the economic elements of slavery, just as one of several other factors, played a vital role in race relations in both countries mentioned above. This history is something that cannot and should be ignored, yet we, as Americans, tend to go blindly into assessing race in other regions, and most certainly in expressing how immigrants to the United States should consider race themselves. In discussions (from an American perspective) related to race in other countries, there tends to be a forced application of American racial categories and norms, as if our identity grid fits each racial landscape without a need to vary its shape. And though we like to pretend that race is clear-cut in the United States, it’s obvious that concepts of race are more mutable than we like to admit.”

    I know I’m really late, but I saw the link in a recent post. I’m so glad to hear an American say this, because I’ve been struck by the (ironic) arrogance of American PoC in Europe who explicitly argue as if Europe is America and the meaning of every word, every tradition, and every way of thinking is the *exact same*. They barge in and expect to get “respect” while not listening and not paying attention to the people’s culture in which they are. Lesson #1 of international life: If you want respect, you have to earn it by showing that you can play by your host country’s rules. Even though I can see (better that someone who’s never lived in the US, at least) where they’re coming from, it’s still very disrespectful and it ends up being very ironic when while arguing race oppression (that works completely differently anyway, time spent being mad about the US system you left behind might be better spent figuring out how it *does* work where you are now) they use imperialist powers! It seems that many American PoC are unaware of their own imperialist tendencies and of their own Americanness in the eyes of others. It’s obviously hard for Americans generally to realize that most people on Earth just don’t know and don’t care about internal American social dynamics, because they’re busy fixing their own. Everyone’s got their own racism problem, their own economic problems, roads that need fixing, politicians that lie… you know the list. How much do you know about internal German ideas about what people from different parts of the country are like? Probably not much. Do you care? Probably not. And Germany is a country that is relatively well-known country to h US.

    Any argument – even when meant to be constructive or to correct an ethical wrong – that is based in American internal social organization will not make sense outside the US. It’s that simple. I’ve lived in the US for close to a decade and I don’t know why Black Americans in the Netherlands get bent out of shape by Zwarte Peiten. There was something about blackface, but I don’t know why blackface is considered bad (some bad history I assume, but I don’t know what it was whites did). I don’t even know why Black and White are capitalized. Imagine how little someone who has never lived in the US knows about how race is constructed and lived in the US. The vast majority of what is discussed here is in a very unique American cultural context that just doesn’t translate elsewhere. That’s actually why I’m here, to learn about America and race. I’m not understanding why either Blacks or Whites act the way they do or say what they way on my own. I need a cultural guide :)

    (Also… why *are* “white” and “black” capitalized when they (roughly) refer to skin colors but not when they refer to colors of objects? I don’t say I have Blue eyes…)