Something New is Getting Old

by Racialicious Special Correspondent Latoya Peterson

I wouldn’t have wanted to date white guys before, but they’re killin’ it right now - Justin Timberlake, Orlando Bloom, Paul Walker. Every hot guy I see is white.”

—Rihanna, Vibe Vixen August/September issue

According to CNN, black women are warming up to the idea of “dating out:”

For years, Toinetta Jones played the dating game by her mom’s strict rule.

“Mom always told me, ‘Don’t you ever bring a white man home,”‘ recalled Jones, echoing an edict issued by many Southern, black mothers.

But at 37, the Alexandria divorcee has shifted to dating “anyone who asks me out,” regardless of race.

“I don’t sit around dreaming about the perfect black man I’m going to marry,” Jones said.

Black women around the country also are reconsidering deep-seated reservations toward interracial relationships, reservations rooted in America’s history of slavery and segregation.

They’re taking cues from their favorite stars — from actress Shar Jackson to tennis pro Venus Williams — as well as support blogs, how-to books and interracially themed novels telling them it’s OK to “date out.”

[Is it just me, or does anyone else think that “date out” sounds suspiciously like take out? Like black women are walking up to White-Guy-2-Go, like “I’d like a tall blond please, with a side of surfer - easy on the emo.”]

The CNN article continues:

It comes as statistics suggest American black women are among the least likely to marry.

[Yeah, yeah, trust me, we know. Is there a dating statistic quoted more often than black women are least likely to marry? If someone knows of another one, please let me know!]

“I’m not saying that white men are the answer to all our problems,” Jones said. “I’m just saying that they offer a different solution.”

She reflects many black women frustrated as the field of marriageable black men narrows: They’re nearly seven times more likely to be incarcerated than white men and more than twice as likely to be unemployed

[Looks like the Black-Men-2-Go Franchise is falling on hard times…]

While CNN (and the other outlets I saw this in before seeing the CNN link) are doing their best to promote discussion about this “trend,” they are conveniently forgetting that “dating out” isn’t exactly new.

Check out this statistic from the article:

Census data showed 117,000 black wife-white husband couples in 2006, up from 95,000 in 2000.

There were just 26,000 such couples in 1960, before a Supreme Court ruling banished laws against mixed marriages.

So…before it was legal, 26,000 black women still found a way to marry Mr. White? So, we have a solid 40 years of black women dating - and marrying - white men of their own free will. Interesting.

Personally, I have four main issues with this article:

1. It reinforces the “black men are underachieving” stereotype.

Black women are refusing to comply with that message about just find yourself a good blue-collar man with a job, or just find a black man,” Moore said.

She pointed to low rates of black men in college, a place where women of all races often meet their spouses.

Black women on campus largely are surrounded by non-black men: In 2004, 26.5 percent of black males ages 18 to 24 were enrolled in college versus 36.5 percent of black women that age, according to the American Council on Education’s most recent statistics.

Even after college, Roslyn Holcomb struggled to meet professional black men.

“I wanted to get married (and) have children,” she said. “If I was only meeting one guy a year, or every few years, that wasn’t going to happen.”

The Alabama author eventually married white.

So I suppose the assumption is that if a black woman does end up with a white man, he must be a high achieving college grad? I guess dating an under-educated white guy isn’t really an option - obviously, if we wanted that, we’d keep dating black men!

2. White Men are the Only Option

Notice, no where in the article does it mention black women dating Asian men, Desi men, Latin men - it’s all about the white guys. The interracial dating label apparently applies only to white-POC combinations.

[On a semi-related note - white men, how do you feel about being a trend?]

3. Black Men Do Not Really Get a Say in this Article

They’re made even slimmer, grumble many black women, by high rates of successful black men choosing blondes. For some, they argue, white wives are the ultimate status symbol.

“They don’t want a dark chocolate sister laying around their swimming pool,” Moore said.

Jones remembered being troubled when a white man politely approached her around 1990. Her stance softened years later, after a sobering party experience.

“All the black men literally pushed (us) out the way to talk to the blondes,” said Jones, who soon declared, “I’m going to date whoever.”

Black men and women have openly feuded before.

[…]Ayo Handy-Kendi, creator of Black Love Day, argues blacks are simply reacting to messages linking success with whiteness. She referred to a string of successful athletes with white partners, including golfer Tiger Woods.

“They normally rejected their culture and they went to the acceptable standard of success — a white woman,” said Handy-Kendy, who thought it ironic high-achieving black women were mimicking the behavior.

All of these quotes exemplify some of the worst of the in-fighting that happens within the black community. It is always someone’s fault. Fingers are pointed, tempers flare, and eventually someone comes out with “Well if you weren’t so _____.”

I honestly felt like I was reading a transcript from BET.

Then again, I think I would have rather had “Dr.” Tiy-E Muhammed, Lauren Lake, and Thomas Lopez-Pierre back than tangle with…

4. These So-Called Experts

…cited in the article.

From referencing Halima Anderson’s Date a White Guy Blog in the article notes, to Evia Moore (whose blog I could not find a link to), I was finding the sources cited highly questionable.

But most questionable of all was the inclusion of Tim Alexander, director of Diary of a Tired Black Man. Taglines for the movie:

“Creating a National Dialogue for Change.”
“It’s Time We Get Real and Fix Some Stuff.”

And my favorite -

“Now, it’s the Black Men’s Turn to Exhale.”

I see why they need to exhale - looking at the evil sneer from the female lead on the movie poster, I held my breath involuntarily. The trailers and promos also serve to promote the stereotype of evil, nagging black women henpecking their men to death. (Make sure you watch both the high budget trailer and the low-budget one. You’ll see what I mean…)

Tim Alexander also has multiple radio interviews on his site, including one in the UK where he reveals he has been engaged six times - and has never made it to the altar. I suppose he would be an expert in dysfunctional relationships…

Alexander’s views are made clear in the article:

It’s a frustration director Tim Alexander tackles in “Diary of a Tired Black Man,” a frank film covering everything from black women’s demeanors to their weight. Frustrated by black women, the main character dates a white one.

“To a certain degree, black people are sick of each other,” Alexander said. “It would be better for black men and black women to open their options.”

Thanks Tim. My boyfriend and I will make sure to open our options and not support your movie.

[Personally, I’m saving my cash for Akira’s Hip-Hop Shop or Neo Ned - two films that look like they’d be worth my $10.]

I don’t know why I am even surprised at this point - everyone loves an angry black woman/frustrated black man story to laugh at, be amused by, and feel superior to. The fact that this type of story is repeatedly picked up just shows me how far we have to go before we can have an honest discussion about interracial (and intra-racial) dating.

Still, one small thing does stand out.

As much as the movie Something New is referenced in these articles, it is interesting to see that the underlying message of the film is continuously omitted. Something New wasn’t about finding a white Prince Charming - it was about being true to yourself. In one of the movie’s closing scenes, Kenya’s father breaks it down:

Edmond McQueen: The point is, love is an adventure, Kenya. It’s not a decision you make for others. It’s a decision you make from your heart. Anyway, the boy’s just white, he ain’t a Martian.

Trackbacks & Pings

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Comments

  1. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    Thanks to all of you who pointed us to this article! Jenn, Lemure, rosiecotton, and roamingknowmad.

  2. lemure wrote:

    Thanks Latoya. This article made my blood boil last night. Its like there is a concentrated effort to cause trouble between Black men and Black women. And why do White people always have to be part of any discussion of interracial dating? Annoying!

  3. lemure wrote:

    Also, why is Shar Jackson included as an example? Ironically her Something New embodies the worst stereotypes of Black men!

  4. TROUBLMan wrote:

    As a black man i’m glad to see more sistas dating white men. To engrain the belief that balck women should only date men is a form of racism. White men aren’t options they’re people.When non-black women date black men are they wieghing their options or are they engaging in a relationship with a man that they’re attracted to?

  5. Telemill wrote:

    I’m so glad you pointed out the idea that inter-racial dating is NOT just black and white. I don’t understand why we can’t have more discussions on Black/Asian love (Black woman/Asian man) — I think Asian men are simply gorgeous and would like to try some of that action. Where I’m from the Black woman/Latino man situation is common place - but still very beautiful. There are so many wonderful, beautiful men out there in the world. Black women really need to open their eyes to that. And we as Black Women should create a little PR buzz that we are now open to seeing and appreciating ALL men that want to be-friend and love us.

  6. Rob wrote:

    How many white men does it take to screw in a light bulb?

    Just one. One white man to hold the light bulb in the socket and for the world to revolve around him.

  7. gatamala wrote:

    I wanted to retch when I saw these articles. They always scratch the surface for soundbites that fit the narrative but miss the forest for the trees. Face it, “we” don’t like it when our business is out for the world to see.

    bw - like (virtually) everybody else- want to marry, and have families. The best way to succeed is to cast a wide net. The issue is understanding what values are important and acceptable, then behaving accordingly. Race is part of that, but just a part. I vehemently disagree w/ the focus on getting a white guy. His race is also part of the evaluation. Other characteristics come into play: personality, compassion, friendship, loyalty, economic stability, ambition, chemistry etc….

    Regarding your first critique, isn’t this woman merely stating what bw, particularly those with advanced degrees, know to be true? The assumption isn’t that if she ends up with a white guy he’s educated. The point is that in order to have the greatest chance to meet a partner with comparable education and aspirations, bw have to look beyond race as a limiting factor.

    evia’s site: http://www.bfinterracialmarriage.blogspot.com/

  8. Vee wrote:

    This subject comes around every year in the media and within the community. Word to Thomas Jefferson.

    It’s old, I get it. It is really not a big deal because it is not a new social trend. There are some people that are simply unable to accept others dating or marrying people from different ethnic backgrounds. Sure it is a sore point for some in the African American community but it also exist in many other communities. It is a serious issue within the Jewish community and Indian community.

    As far as the article suggesting that people are taking cues from celebrities . . . that just sounds like some stupid lame crap. I don’t know of any sister that even cares or follow up on the daily events of Shar Jackson(?!?) or Serena Williams outside of winning a title or two.

    But either way, I expect Essence, Vibe, etc. will decide to run an article every 6-8 months on the subject and there are many blogs highlighting relationship black women and white men.

    It’s great, whatever!

  9. La - msviswan wrote:

    First I would just like to say, I wish to see a time when black men and black women could one day find the importance of black family, pride, unity and love amongst themselves and in each other. It’s sad when black people feel the need to “seek out” in such abundance to compensate for what they may not find in their own race (no other race does this). Slavery, oppression, media/society imposed standards and self hate stripped many black people and black Americans from holding racial pride and cherishing their “own”. This was orchestrated waaaay back by design to obliterate black unity.

    However, I do support black women dating out due to obvious black male shortages and the blatant disparity of black men in IR’s. Black women can’t afford to “wait” around for Mr. black night and shining armor when there is not enough to go around. Not to mention black society and even black men who date out won’t let black women go without a fight (despite what they may say about not caring). Some would rather see black women unhappy or they rather keep them at their disposal. There are also people black and non-black that don’t want black women to find companionship outside the black race, especially if they themselves benefit from the better part of this imbalanced equation to begin with (why embrace competition when you’ve been getting away with gluttonousness so long.)

    Now, the one thing I don’t like about these type correspondence is the fact that they almost always refer to black women as being the one not receptive to non-black men. As if to say non-black men are that openly and genuinely considerate of black women as marriageable partners to begin with. Some may get angry with me for saying these things, but I am not saying black women are not desired, because we are. I’m just stating the obvious. In my opinion, more non-black men also need snap out their brain washed melanin discriminative and stereotype believing ideals as well.

    This is a real touchy subject for many black women, including myself. But I will say, I would prefer to see more Asian men and Black women relations. That would be something new.

  10. nycmusichouse wrote:

    I agree with Vee - it’s ridiculous to even assume black women are following some sort of Hollywood trend. Who really cares what those handful of women are doing?

    It’s about independent thinking women not wishing on a dream meant for their mama, and their mama’s mama…

  11. Wendi Muse wrote:

    besides some of the sexist notions i touched on in my reaction piece for this article, i find myself becoming more and more annoyed by this kind of coverage because it politicizes black people’s (and here, black women’s) every move. my ex boyfriend is ABC (american-born chinese) and it had nothing to do with a shortage of black men or my wanting to date “out” and “up,” or my wanting biracial kids with “good hair,” or [fill in any interracial relationship-oriented stereotype you can think of here].

    i dated him because i liked him and found him attractive. plain and simple. there was nothing political or hollywood inspired about my choice to be with him for 3 and a half years.

    this reminds me a lot of the black hair debate (natural vs. weave vs. relaxed). is it possible to do ANYTHING without having excessive meaning assigned and some reporter up your a**?

  12. La - msviswan wrote:

    Troublman said: “White men aren’t options they’re people.When non-black women date black men are they wieghing their options or are they engaging in a relationship with a man that they’re attracted to?”

    I’m not disagreeing, but just for the record. Non-black women (White, Asian, Latin, Indian etc.) are not oppressed or deprived in the dating area by men fo their own race in comparison to black women. Therefore you really can’t make that comparison or judgment as to why a black female may want to use that “option” to date out.

  13. Anonymous wrote:

    I really appreciate the insightful comments Racialicious readers have given here.

    I’d personally like to comment on the Rihanna quote: I know she’s a nineteen year old girl, but that quote struck me as sounding incredibly dense and naive and here’s the o-word, even offensive. Anyone else agree?

  14. Om wrote:

    It’s disturbing to me that the article, and later discussion, is centered around black women’s “decision” to start dating white men.

    My opinion is probably biased from growing up in the upper South, but from my experience as a bw, I never found that (the majority of) white men were geniuenly interested in my friends or myself.

    Later, in college, I found that my african american friends and black american friends really wanted to date white guys. Yet the same thing happened as it did in my hometown: (most) white guys aren’t really interested in any long term commitment. They might hook up–maybe. But they are even more reluctant to date bw than bm are.

    My african american (children of african immigrants) friends were also brutally honest about why they wanted to date white men: because they are powerful, or society values them more, or, quite frankly, because they want lighter children than themselves.

    Also, there is a long history in this country of highly sexualized relationships between bw and wm, usually in addition to the wm’s marriage to a ww. Just as bm/ww relationships have the influence of the history of american slavery, so do possible bw/wm relationships. For that reason, in addition to the usual hierarchy of skin color/features in this country, I think most wm don’t take bw as serious options. Regardless of whatever the bw are “deciding” at any given moment.

  15. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    Anonymous - no way, white men are the new hotness! I know that because Oprah has had Robin Thicke on her show. Twice. And went awkwardly out of her way to show his wife is black, so he’d have more cred.

    ;)

  16. EvilAngelfish wrote:

    “Like black women are walking up to White-Guy-2-Go, like ‘I’d like a tall blond please, with a side of surfer - easy on the emo.’”

    White-Guy-2-Go? Why not White Castle?

    Excellent post, Latoya! After I snapped up the last issue of Vibe Vixen, I noticed Rihanna’s quote and it certainly gave me pause. This issue gets resurrected in Essence every year but gosh, now even young famous black girls are contemplating “dating out”?! What is the world coming to??!!

  17. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Lemure -

    Word, I feel you - but considering what’s been going on between KFed and Britney, he’s starting to look like the better man, ne? Scary…

    Troublman - Good point. Like Wendi says, it’s really about the choices of the individual. Just like I can’t assume that every black guy that dates white women is making a concious choice to exclude black women, not every black woman is dating white guys as a last resort.

    Telemill - Agreed.

    Gatamala -

    I intentionally questioned that assumption (made in the article) because of my own personal experience. The only bw-wm IR relationship I know of involves a black woman who completed undergrad and a white man who didn’t. There were other factors at play in their relationship. And I feel like the article - and others - is making a huge assumption with how important education is when choosing a partner. Education is important for many people - but holding advanced degrees does not guarantee the person can hold a conversation.

    La - msviswan:

    Good point. I will explore that in another post.

    Anon -

    I understand your feelings on RiRi’s quote, but I feel a bit differently. I feel like her quote is indicative of the paradigm shift that happens with a lot of black women - realizing that white men can be attractive. She says it a bit awkwardly, but I sense a kind of wonderment, almost as if she is saying “I never expected it to happen, but there are some cute white men!” To me, it reminds me of an epiphany period that some black women go through - after being conditioned to think that only black men are suitable for dating, you begin to close down your options and only perceive black men as attractive. (Key phrase: I guess he’s cute…for a white boy.) Once you let go of that paradigm, the resulting boost to how you perceive people of other races can be quite shocking.

    (Or maybe I’m just projecting onto Rihanna’s quote…)

    EvilAngelFish -

    Ha! Sorry, I forgot about that. They aren’t in my area, so the only White Castle I’ve ever seen was in Harold & Kumar.

  18. Wendi Muse wrote:

    latoya,
    i don’t think you’re projecting too much at all. she had a similarly awkward quotation a few years ago about her *discovery* of how awesome rock music was. she said she wasn’t exposed to much of it when growing up in the caribbean and it was like a brand new thing to her. it’s possible that her increased attraction to white men was a product of such increased exposure as well.

  19. georgia wrote:

    I find these stories particularly hilarious because they seem to assume that all black people should be able to get along with each other.

    According to this article black women are only turning to white men because all the black men are in jail, not in college, dating white women, or hiding out in some unknown location.

    I understand that some people of every race and ethnic group have been told by their parents/families to date within their own group, this is not unique to black women.

    I just find the assumption that for these women dating white men is an unfortunate last resort to be very insulting to the women and men who enter into these relationships, and even their children if there are any.

  20. camille wrote:

    Peace.

    Thank you for metioning the four points about CNN’s article, and that subject in general, that get to you.

    I am dating a white man. It has nothing to do with it being a trend. Matter of fact, I left California, my birth state, last year, headed East, in search of more Black community - and hopefully a black man. In San Diego Brothas have so many options, sistas don’t really get too much play. Especially those with natural hair, such as myself.

    Anyway, I digress.

    I am no with my man for some stupid ass trend, or because I am disappointed in my Brothas actions.

    I am with him because he is a cool ass mofo, who challenges me to be a better human being and to see things, life, from a broader perspective.

    He is perfect for me at this stage in my life. So I am flowing with it and learning a lot in the process.

    Be well.

  21. camille wrote:

    **i apologize for those typos! i was in a HURRY!

  22. Keke wrote:

    I think that love is more than the superficial. It isn’t about a man’s color, his bank account or even his career accomplishments. It’s about what he is willing to do in a relationship. If he is willing to love, cherish and respect the woman that he is with, that’s the most important thing.

    With that said, I think it is important to understand that there are many successful Black couples that truly love each other. Cuz that’s what it’s about at the end of the day. So, I hate it when people make it seem like Black men and women hate each other and can’t be in loving relationships with one another. It’s just not true.

    Perhaps Mr. Alexander should question what role he may have played in his prior relationships that culminated in him being a “Tired Black Man.” It takes two people to be in a dysfunctional relationship and it has nothing to do with color.

  23. Aimee wrote:

    No offense camille but this:

    “I left California, my birth state, last year, headed East, in search of more Black community - and hopefully a black man.”

    and this:

    “I am no with my man for some stupid ass trend, or because I am disappointed in my Brothas actions.”

    I’m not claiming you’re with your man to be “trendy,” but you state at the outset you were in search of a black man, but ended up with a white one. That makes it sound like if you COULD find a black man, you WOULD. I can’t imagine being a white man with a black woman who feels this way.

  24. TierListE wrote:

    I don’t know if it’s because where I live too (NC), but one would have to search quite a bit harder to find a white guy that would have a relationship with a black woman than a black guy that’d date a black woman

    In the end I still see more black/black couples and black/anything else, male and female.

  25. cw wrote:

    No matter how you answer on this subject it sounds like white worship.

  26. Orville wrote:

    You know I am not straight but even I have heard this story about some black professional straight women not having men. The thing I don’t like is I don’t agree with black heterosexual men BLAMING black men for their problems. Look, if you can’t find a good black man MAYBE you’re not looking in the right places.

    I mean if you’ve looking for a husband at a night club or a bar I feel sorry for you. Why not ask family or friends about a good educated black man that is single? Why not go to church? Why not GET OUT THERE. Get out of your COMFORT ZONE. I just find it really annoying and irritating when some black heterosexual women want to blame black men for ALL THEIR PROBLEMS. Don’t do that. Because I am SURE that’s a turn off for black straight men right there.
    Also, even though I am gay let me say that just because you DATE a white guy DOES NOT MEAN the white guy is better. I know from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I don’t like the vibe of the article. Its all about the myth of the perfect white man. I am sure there are white heterosexual women that would beg to differ that white men are so “perfect” as the article claims.

    Yes I do agree in one aspect black women have got to GO OUT THERE and yes look beyond what they think a good man should be. I am sure there are good men out there of different races. I just don’t agree with the subversive racism that white men are somehow better then black men because that’s not true. Men are men some are good and some are bad. You just got to raise your standards.

  27. Orville wrote:

    Oops I meant to say black heterosexual women. I made a typo error.

  28. lemure wrote:

    Personally I was never conditioned to “only go Black” by my parents. My parents are Caribbean and didn’t have to think about the same color politics growing up, although became so racialized by American bigotry they now dislike White people.

    Also I wasn’t allowed to date until I left for college anyway so I had no ingrained preference. My college was predominantly White so my primary dating experiences were with White men (unfortunately the “first time” Black girl, ick).

    Anyway, I went to an Ivy League school and met plenty of White men after graduating with less education and ambition than me and its insulting to say that Black men are lesser. They just don’t have the same opportunities, but to denigrate them for that. Again its saying the White man is the savior of the Black race. So a Black woman meets a few bad Black apples, that is the reason she’s dating a White man? I dated an coked up, cheating Italian bartender, so shall I lump all Italians together as the reason I won’t date them anymore?

    Love and attraction aren’t political, they are chemical. Why does one have to justify their preference by putting down their own people? That is guilt and slave mentality talking and the establishment is eating that Black infighting up.

    I love my Puerto Rican boyfriend, I’m not color blind, I see his heritage and know its different (well actually, not too different, its a Caribbean island as is mine), however it has nothing to do with rejecting the Black race.

    As I said to Carmen, I swear the PR of the KKK and some self hating Aunt Thomasina must be writing press releases together, about interracial relationships, the n-word, hip hop. Every other damn story is about how Black men and women don’t get along and the weakminded among us believe its true and make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. The spirit of the mythical Willie Lynch letter is alive and well in postmodern America, divide and conquer.

  29. eric daniels wrote:

    White Men are the Saviors of the Black Woman according to….

    Orlando Patterson
    David Horowitz
    Debra Dickerson
    CNN
    John Mc Whorter
    Randall Kennedy
    Diana Ross
    Reality T.V.
    Hollywood
    American media
    American so- called intellectuals

    I read an article about 8 years ago in Esscence (when it was actually good) by a British Woman who was a professional in the U.K. and this white guy said, ” You now must marry a white guy” and she responded by saying that her husband will be a Black Man ” He was insulted that she would even entertain the notion of ‘dating black’ because she is an ‘educated black women’. In the article she wrote that in Europe but particularly in the U.K. they are stressing IR relationships instead of same race couples in their popular culture like in movies, t.v, music . and showing popular couples in any IR configuration (mainly with white British Men) while not showing two people of the same race in loving relationships in many cases showing those realtionships as socially dysfuntional.

    Conservatives like Ward Connerly, David Hororwitz and Tamar Jacoby along with Black Female conservatives in a panel on media and entertainment advocated that Black Women particularly those who were educated needed to ‘break free’ from Black Men to ensure colorblindness by using the European model in popular culture so this article and by extension the CNN program is just another one of those types of programs.
    Marry who you want, but my problem is when Black Men/Black Women in IR relationships want to make negative comments like O.J. Simpson, Wesley Snipes and Debra Dickerson when you never hear them comment about their sterotypes (insert race here) lovers. My question is, how can you say something negative about someone you don’t date?

    Can anyone answer that for me on this board.

  30. eric daniels wrote:

    Can someone tell me that a population of 18 million Black American Men are so troubled, If you heard these women Most Black men are in

    jail
    gay
    dating white women
    trifling

    When the numbers of men of all races has gone down in the last 40 years. Maybe it’s something called the ‘Women’s Movement’, Women of all races are having problems finding suitable professional men because the numbers are smaller. I hear this from white, asian, latina and native american women but Black Women complain the most about Black Men in college when the numbers are only a 9 percent point difference. Only about 30% of all Americans (my opinion) have advanced degrees so most Americans are either Blue Collar or wage slaves trying to make it through this world. These women are either stupid, uneducated or wanted to date IR anyway. So stop blaming 18 million Black men for your failure to find a “Good Black Mate ” because you didn’t want one.

    These women would have driven those unlucky Brothas crazy. thank god they are married to white men, White Dudes I wish you luck with those sistas that were profiled you are going to need it.

    Carmen do you know how many Americans have advanced degrees I was kinda throwing stuff at the wall.

  31. jaybee wrote:

    in my toronto ‘hood, there is definitely a “trend” in bw/wm relationships, but i doubt it has anything to do with hollywood, than reality. and i can count on one hand the number of black women i’ve seen dating brown/asian brothers–i’m not saying it doesn’t happen, i’m just saying it’s few and far, far, between.

    these days, what i see is that there is a rise in interracial relationships, period. it would just seem that sisters are the ones seem to be in the demographic “it” spot at the moment.

    i won’t lie, whenever i see a black woman on the subway/bus/train/street, i always look at her left hand. it’s not a sure-fire way to tell, of course, but more often than not, the sisters come up short on the rings. far more asian, white, brown women i see rock the rocks.

    of course, none of this is scientific, just my observations and musings. as a bw dating a wm myself, i am always interested in the inter-racial dynamic. i am dating a white guy simply because i can–for no other reason than i met a wonderful guy who happens to be white… i do know of the woes that some sistas feel–being bypassed for white (or in toronto, asian) women, but by and large, my dating choices are not forced upon my by a lack of viable options based on race… i like men. brothers and others. that is all.

  32. Kenny wrote:

    Eric Daniels you summed it up perfectly. The numbers increase for BW/WM relationships are influenced by Hollywood for sure. I remember my niece teling me that she always pictured a White knight sweeping her off her feet while growing up and that she was in her late twenties when she realized that was because of the soaps!”e romantic guys on tv didn’t look like the boys at my school ” she told me,wow.They intentionally reverse reality when it comes to mixed couples onscreen. Some people also have the flawed grass is greener on the other side thinking.I mean really who do Black women think White women have most of their bad dating experiences with ? Or do they think they don’t have them? White men don’t have to deal with any stereotypes that precede them before even meeting women, must be nice.

  33. Wendi Muse wrote:

    I was discussing this article with a black female friend of mine who is in a relationship with a white man, and one of our biggest gripes about this coverage besides what we have already touched on is how the relationship is considered a flight away from black men. the blame, as some have mentioned, is placed on the woman.

    then we thought about it on the other side…no one presents white women who date black men as fleeing from white men, at least not that i have seen. why is it presented this way for black women in relationships with white men?

  34. eric daniels wrote:

    My main issue is that people who ought to know better is when they talk about BM/BW it is always about a ‘Black Male Shortage’ and I am always saying there are 18 Million Black Men living in America only 275,000 are in IR relationships compared to nearly 500,000 of all Black Men in college. People hear what they want to hear and many of these women didn’t want to date Black Men anyway and just were looking for an excuse to confirm their own negative assumptions.

    Wendy, White Men are bothered by white women dating Black Men just go on any sports site, Football Player Ian Johnson had to hire Bodyguards at his wedding 2 weeks ago. The hate mail Black male celebrities get from these white men border on death and violence to them and their children.Why do you think that major white female celebs never disclose their Black Lovers. You and your friend are making the wrong assumptions.White men I know will never date a white woman who has had children from a Black Man.

  35. Ailurophile wrote:

    I echo the questions of posters above - why are IR relationships always framed in terms of “dating white?” I never see an article about black women dating Asian men, for instance. For that matter, when we hear about the much-vaunted “dating gap” with Asian men and women, it’s always in terms of who is or who is not dating white. It’s as if the only options out there are date your own race, or date white. Hmph.

    This brings me to another question - why is it that women are always assumed to be the gatekeepers in IR relationships? If there is interracial dating it’s because women are “choosing” white (or whatever) men. If there are no IR’s - it’s because women are so fussy and snobbish. Isn’t dating a two-sided affair? Don’t men have as much say in it? Can an article like this be framed as white men choosing to date black women rather than vice versa? Points to ponder.

  36. Wendi Muse wrote:

    i agree ailurophile…there is definitely a hint of sexism going on in the coverage…placing all the “blame” on women

    and eric, i never said people didn’t have a problem with IRs involving black men and white women. i am well aware of that, in addition to the ian johnson issue, which i have covered in my personal writing and writing for the coup. however, if you look at media coverage (not blog commenters) on white female/black male IRs, white women are not targeted as “fleeing” white men or abandoning their whiteness when they choose to date black men. they may be in a social sense, but i have yet to see an article about white women dating “out” and their so-called rejection of white men in the process.

  37. Mike wrote:

    What I can’t stand about these articles (beside the fact thatb they keep popping up once a year} is how they treat the topic like it’s “Somthing New” when it’s old as hell. Black women and white men have been getting together since off the slave ships. There is a reason we don’t look like carbon copies of the brothers and sisters in africa, the bw + wm are the factor for that. The first recognized marrige between black and white was between a black women and a white man. Black men got lynched for interacting with white women not black women, (lynched for not getting with one maybe). Whats sad is how everyone bites into the medias agenda when it comes force feeding stereotypes about men.
    1- more black men in jail than college. (false)
    2-black men don’t care about the black community (false)
    3- black men don’t want to get married (false)
    4- Most blk men are on the down low (false)
    5- blk male could care less about there kids (damn lie)
    6-blk men hate blk women (damn lie)
    7-there no blk men around where you live(come on now)
    As a blk male I find it shocking when I do come across a brother who show somthing on that list.
    What may be even sadder is how they treat blk women like blazing idiots.
    1- cant find a good man (see the list above)
    2- cant get married (see the list above)
    3- single mother (see above)
    4- depression, overweight, suicidal, broke, lonely, horny, crampng too much or just generally pissed with the world (see the list above)
    And of course the solution to all this is your nearest white guy to save you from those no good blk bastards.
    You want to date some one from another race than do it, don’t justify it by blaming us. There are to many blk men on the planet let alone this country for any one to buy into this BS. As a blk male I would like to tell all who buy into this to collectivel6y hop off our blk D@!K.

  38. Mike wrote:

    P.S. that same white knight may or may not be whats wrong with blk men (see list above)
    P.P.S
    I still got love for yall propaganda zombies.

  39. mr guy wrote:

    Yeah, Mike pretty much sums it up for me.Tons of stereotypes blame and beliefs thrown at black men without question.And wendi muse is also correct when she says there is a lot of blame towards black women.

  40. Nina wrote:

    Another myth perpetuated is that black male athletes and actors all have white wives . This just isn’t true. The truth is that the media only photographs and follows those black males with blonde white wives.

  41. Acanthus wrote:

    Hmmm, another blog post about Evia Moore and her “higher ordered melinated” disciples that doesn’t contiain the phrase “black on black eugenics”.

  42. summer wrote:

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing about this. I blogged about it when I ran across it, too. The whole tone was just off to me, for many of the same reasons you mentioned. And I was frustrated because I couldn’t find more of an outlet for my annoyance.

    As a woman who has dated/married interracially, I am always insulted by people who offer up these misguided reasons as the cause behind ALL women’s dating choices.

  43. Stef wrote:

    Wendi-to take a guess at your question, maybe the explaination for the difference is that white men are seen (by society in general) as “better” than black men, who are portrayed as having so many flaws (as listed above). So the sense that black women are rejecting black men just serves to support the argument that black men are flawed and therefore worthy of rejection. There is no sense that white women are rejecting white men, because under this paradigm, it just wouldn’t make sense. White men are perfect, right? So there is nothing for white women to reject. If anything, it is the white woman who chooses outside of her race that is the social reject, the one who is lowering her status by dating outside her race, or they are women whom white men have already rejected…or so the stereotype goes.

    I think that with the mentality you are describing, Wendi, it’s like one big racial/gender totem pole, with white men at the top, white women next in line, and black men and women near the bottom (sorry, all other races are excluded from the totem pole, as everything in the media revolves around the black-white dichotomy). As white men are at the top, they cannot be rejected. They can only reject others. So a black woman who choses a white guy seems to be rejecting the low-on-the-pole status in favor of the white guy. Her association with him raises her status (does it lower his?). Conversly, white women who chose black men will move toward them, lower on the pole. Her status is lowered. She is not seen as rejecting white guys, because, as they are at the top of the pole, there is nothing to reject.

    Obviously I do not agree with this line of thinking. I don’t think that personal relationship choices do or should reflect larger social power schemes, rather the choice to date someone is based on personality, chemistry, etc.. But I think that these are the racist ideas that are supported when black women are said to have “rejected” black men, whereas white women are not said to have rejected white men.

    Now, for my own personal quibble at this article, as a white woman: The quotes offered in Latoya’s piece seem to show an interchangable use of the terms “white” and “blonde” when discussing women, such as:

    “They’re made even slimmer, grumble many black women, by high rates of successful black men choosing blondes. For some, they argue, white wives are the ultimate status symbol.”

    The way they moved from one term to the other without differentiating between them seemed odd. Um, blondes are just a subset of whites. Not all whites are blonde. Not all whites who date blacks are blonde. Are we talking about blondes here or whites in general? Anyway, maybe I’m not understanding that correctly, but it seemed like they were playing up the blonde aspect when discussing whites with blacks to get the most out of the “contrast” element.

  44. georgia wrote:

    Instead

  45. tasha wrote:

    Mike, the statistic about more black men in prison than in college is actually kind of true, but not entirely. The Justice Policy Institute used the entire black male prison population for their sample. What they should have done is taken a subset of that sample, say the 18-25 year old black male prison population and compared that to the 18-25 black male college population because there are more 18-25 year old black men in college than in prison, but yes, the entire black male prison population does outnumber the black male college population. Anyway, you don’t need a fancy study to figure out that black men are outnumbered by black women on college campuses. My cousin starts at Hampton this fall, where the male to female ratio is like 1:3 or 1:4.

    “These women are either stupid, uneducated or wanted to date IR anyway. So stop blaming 18 million Black men for your failure to find a “Good Black Mate ” because you didn’t want one.”

    Eric, If in fact my eyes are not deceiving me, when I walk around a college campus, why is it hard to believe that college educated black women would have a hard time finding black men of their own ilk to date and marry once they enter the workforce?

    When I read responses to articles on this sight, I get the feeling that bloggers are more interested in being politically rather than honest, which is why I take it with a grain of salt. Latoya, you commented on the black woman and marriage statistic, and completely skirted the issue of single motherhood among black women with children fathered by black men, like if you don’t talk about it, it will go away, much like the black woman/marriage statistic, you’re so tired of hearing about, or the fact that black men date and marry interracially at much higher rates then their female counterparts. (yeah, why is that?) It’s like you went out of your way to highlight the statistics about the increasing interracial married couples involving black women, yet didn’t consider that the reason why the article referenced the film “something new” was because the film is recent and had notoriety, not because interracial marriage among black women is literally “something new”. I’m just waiting for someone to say that “90% of black men are married to black women” And no, “date-out” does not mean take out. It’s colloquialism or slang for dating outside of the race. (Of all the silly things to make a point out of . . .).

  46. Anonymous wrote:

    Latoya,

    You expressed my sentiments about this article, EXACTLY! I especially agree with point #4. I expect to be villanized by one of them for speaking my opinion, as most so-called experts think, they are above reproach.

    I have consistently stated that I am in 100% agrrement that every person should enter into relationships with whomever they choose but they don’t have to make a mockery of anyone in the process.

    I know too many hard-working, professional, men who are good fathers and upstanding citizens who don’t deserve that.

  47. eric daniels wrote:

    (quote from Tasha) Eric, If in fact my eyes are not deceiving me, when I walk around a college campus, why is it hard to believe that college educated black women would have a hard time finding black men of their own ilk to date and marry once they enter the workforce? (quote)

    Tasha, I have read is from those two blogs is the only worthy man for these women is a college- educated professional with a white collar job. What about Blue Collar Black Men like bus drivers, garbage men, construction workers or self- made buisnessman who own grocery stores or diners. Tasha my problem with Black American Women and by extension Black America is the only worthy man in their sphere is a college educated one or professional althlete or celebrity.

    In every article from Esscence to mainstream media in the last 10 years is that Black American men are not worthy of dating because of all the sterotypes and stats that get repeated verbatim. I have not seen one black dude on this post said he was against Black Women dating who they want, but go on those other sites and these two ‘experts’ bash Black Men and parade the virtrues of white men even when they say they are ignoring Black Men and the ‘community’ they are still blaming Black Men for being losers unlike those loving, affectionate white men.

    I wish people like Halima Anderson and evia would stay out Black America’s buisness. I consider these women culturally intergrated and ‘honorary whites’ in my eyes. Let us African Americans who care about “the race ” fix and make peace in our community and with those Black Women who love and want to be with Black Men. You can have your ‘ white guy’.

  48. Tom wrote:

    “[On a semi-related note - white men, how do you feel about being a trend?]”

    That’s interesting! It’s flattering at first, and then there’s this sort of weird feeling, kind of cold and a little scary.

  49. eric daniels wrote:

    Tom it could be worse, you are the new ‘cabbage patch doll’ for the early 21st century. like Lesbian & Gay Chic of the1990’s when entertainers and folks like Ann Heche and Kurt Cobain were claiming they were gay, bi, trisexual,white guys are now the ‘flava” amongst Black Women. To quote The Who “Meet the New Flavor, same as the Old Flavor”.

    P.S. Tom my advice when those black women run after you like don’t forget to run like The Beatles in ‘Hard Day’s Night’ being worshipped gave them the willies.

  50. Wendi Muse wrote:

    eric, your assertion regarding class and education levels (”my problem with Black American Women and by extension Black America is the only worthy man in their sphere is a college educated one or professional althlete or celebrity”) in searching for a mate is not exclusive to black american women.

    it’s hard to find a woman of any race who thinks of blue collar men first. i think this is an example less of problems among black americans, and more an example of global classism, and of course, heterosexist norms of male and female roles. women are supposed to be dependent on their man, not the breadwinner (according to most images of heterosexual relationships we see in the media)…

    with regard to education levels, i don’t think this is such a bad desire in a mate. i want someone who is intelligent and with whom i can converse about multiple things. some people assume that men of a lower class level have had limited educational exposure and as a result don’t stack up on intellectual compatability. of course, this is an unfair (and again, classist) assumption, but i don’t think it’s exclusive to a specific racial group.

  51. Tom wrote:

    Eric,

    I’m not complaining. But I’ve been married for a long time, and trends come and go. So I was thinking more along the lines of what might happen around the 20th anniversary:

    “Honey … nobody’s doing this anymore.”
    “Mmm? Doing what, dear?”

  52. Mike wrote:

    Just want to say that education and intelligence are two diffrent things education means you were taught by some one to use what ever knowledge comes written in a book. Intelligence means that you can problem solve for your self. I have met plenty of educated people who can’t make a move with out some one telling them. Half of the things they teach you in college is knowledge from some one who did not go to college. And then there the belief that the piece of paper they give you is suppose to open doors like a magic key. some times I think blk men have figured out how much of a scam a lot of these colleges are thats why they don’t go. Do 4 yrs of schooling for what? To work for some one else you cant stand? And still be unhappy? You can keep that mess and I am educated. The truth is that if you say you date out side or inside your race for any reason you are a bigot self hating or other wise. And tasha I stand by my statment that there are more blk men in college than in prison.

  53. anon. wrote:

    Re: comments 45, 47, 50 (education, black men & women):

    What about the notion that a number of men, of any race, find it difficult to be with a women with more education and/or a higher earning potential? I don’t think this is an issue to over-look when considering the rationale behind the whole “college-educated (black) women wanting a man with a college education” claim. An M.A. or PhD is like man-repellent at a cocktail hour, really. A lot of guys–again, of all races–just seem to feel insecure about it, despite the increased numbers of women getting bachelor and postgraduate degrees.

  54. lunanoire wrote:

    Camille- congratulations for finding love somewhere. As a grad student from L.A., I don’t want to return to CA as a single person b/c I think it’s not the easiest place for a bw. For some of us (dark, natural, nappy, etc.), we are at the bottom of the totem pole, both inter and intra-racially. In mixed social environments I see many bm in IR, ratio-wise, compared to bw/bm or bw in IR. In black environments, it seems easier for bw who have non-african features. People are entitled to their choices, and as a result of those choices many bw are single, and not by choice.
    As for avoiding the bar and club scene, being one of a handful doesn’t work favorably for a bw in general b/c of the totem pole. Also, churches are attended by way more females than males in the black community.
    As an HBCU student, the ratio is about 1:1 starting my year, but in earlier classes it was at least 2:1.
    It is important to evaluate people on the inside, but some dudes want the hottest (as determined by friends for some dudes) female they can pull.
    I wonder if you evaluated the dating frequency/marriage rates of bw based on location, religion, age, education, skin color, eye color, hair texture/length, etc. what the results would be.
    Location is important- I know of a fine Indian American man (desi) who was dateless in TX but had lots of success in college b/c his characteristics were not valued in TX.
    Where should a marriage-minded college educated bw go to find a man? Alaska?

  55. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    I’m the product of an interracial marriage (Irish American father, African American mother) - they got married in 1962 (7 long years before Loving v. Virginia made it legal) and were still married when he died in ‘95.

    So, I don’t have a problem with Black women dating White men - or Hispanic men, or East Asian men, or South Asian men, or Native American men or (did I leave any group of men out - guys from the Faroe Islands perhaps?)

    Love should be color-blind - race shouldn’t even be a factor and it says a LOT about our nation’s ugly history that it still is.

    With that said, whenever I hear this whole “Black male shortage” thing it makes my blood boil!!!

    Yes, there are a million of us in jail (thank you “War On Drugs” and “Broken Window Law Enforcement”)- but most of those brothers will be out on parole in a few years, and in any case, there are still 16 million of us who are NOT in jail.

    And not all of those 16 million Black men are married or “on the down low” (no matter what Oprah says)!!!!

    As for the so called “education gap” thing - the whole argument that a Black woman with a college degree should not marry a Black man with a high school or trade school education - that is so bogus.

    I’m a carpenter, and I work with guys from all different races. It’s not at all unusual for the guys I work with (who are mostly high school grads - with a few guys with GEDs on one end of the spectrum and a few like me with a year or two of college on the other) to be married to teachers, nurses, administrative assistants ect who have college degrees.

    It works for them - so why can’t these professional women complaining about the “shortage of marriageable Black men” go out and find a blue collar guy with a good paying job?

    Now, if they insist on only dating college educated men, that’s their privilige - but they will be missing out on a whole lot of good brothers!

  56. eric daniels wrote:

    Wendi, very true, it is based on classist notions of the the educated, professional male as the only compatiable mate. Most Women and Men think this way in many cultures because the role of Men and Women is very Patriarchal epsecially in the U.S. Most people think the Moniyhan report along with Johnson’s Great Society have ruined the Black Male/Female dynamic and created the gender wars that currently occupy our discussions. Those two idiots on their blog have used those same reports to call many Black Men socially ‘defective’.

    (quote Wendi) it’s hard to find a woman of any race who thinks of blue collar men first. i think this is an example less of problems among black americans, and more an example of global classism, and of course, heterosexist norms of male and female roles. women are supposed to be dependent on their man, not the breadwinner (according to most images of heterosexual relationships we see in the media (quote)

    Agree with you on that also, but I ask you this question would African- Americans in general embrace a Black house husband while the woman works and is the daily breadwinner? I think racism’s grip on A.A. is so strong that any thought of accepting diverse relationships like say, when John Lennon stayed home and raised Sean while Yoko worked would be hearsay particluarly amongst sistas of all classes. I think we Aren’t at that point in our development that Black hetro relationships can accept any other combination expect tradtional white patriarchal roles.

  57. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    “Latoya, you commented on the black woman and marriage statistic, and completely skirted the issue of single motherhood among black women with children fathered by black men, like if you don’t talk about it, it will go away, much like the black woman/marriage statistic, you’re so tired of hearing about, or the fact that black men date and marry interracially at much higher rates then their female counterparts. (yeah, why is that?) It’s like you went out of your way to highlight the statistics about the increasing interracial married couples involving black women, yet didn’t consider that the reason why the article referenced the film “something new” was because the film is recent and had notoriety, not because interracial marriage among black women is literally “something new”.”

    Tasha -

    1. I did not mention issues that were not brought up in the article. Topics like this are sprawling - they encompass a lot of issues. Therefore, you have to pare down your topics, lest you bore your readers. Most regular readers of Racialicious know this is an ongoing series of conversations - something that isn’t covered in one conversation will be covered eventually.

    I am quite aware that Something New is recent and has notoriety, but the reason these articles continually reference it (and miss the point of the film) is to try to “trend watch.” Since Something New came out, it keeps getting mentioned in these types of articles - as if Something New heralds the new coming of black women and white men…as if no one in the 21st century ever had that idea before.

    If you want to specifically see a topic covered by Racialicious, I suggest you drop an email to team@racialicious.com - one of us will probably tackle the topic sooner or later. Please note - the blog focuses on pop culture, so we tend to cover what is in the news, tv shows, movies, etc…it can take a while to get to issues that are not popping up in our media feeds - especially when so many news articles happen on a daily basis.

    Wendi & Eric -

    Great points here in reference to class, race, and perception of worth. (Is there another here for a whole other post? Can I manage a whole other post when I already have 4 in development? Maybe you better do it Wendi…)

    I understand both sides well. However, being a bit of an unschooler by nature, I feel what Eric is saying: I hate how education is coupled with intelligence, as if one automatically guarantees the other. I know that women are looking for someone who comes from a college background, someone who should have a higher potential for intelligent conversation and more job options.

    My life experiences - having two entrepreneurial parents who were educated late in life, if at all - has me value a different set of traits in a partner. So Eric, maybe it’s just how women see and perceive success in their home lives. I’m sure if I had two college educated parents, I would feel that I needed a college educated man.

    Just my two cents…

  58. latinamericanprinces wrote:

    During my own research, the last official statistic I found was 25% for the percentage of Americans with a university degree. So eric you weren’t far off.

    There’s so much I can say about this post and comments, but since so many have said so much already I just want to point out that race, ethnicity and class are different things. Really education level is related to class, but often associated with race, because certain skin colors just happens to be more poor (due to historical and contextual circumstances). It’s sad how little attention is paid to how many more African Americans are graduating and achieving higher education levels. This might counter the assumption that education/intelligence are related to skin color. It saddens me too that my fellow Latinos aren’t doing as well, but hopefully that will change also with more awareness and better focused solutions.

    From my own experience having grown up in an area where 45% of people have university degrees, it is something I find personally important, for myself. I can’t say that I consciously looked for a mate with a certain level of education and in fact found someone that I never expected. My own parents didn’t have degrees and are by many standards (especially mine) successful. I certainly never looked for any particular skin color or background either.

    Culture and values are very important, but those cannot necessarily to be equated with skin color, but rather more with the context in which we are raised. And no I am not trying to imply that there is no black culture or black history, but rather point out that those are not fixed objects with clearly defined boundaries, but are dialogical and constructed over time and space by individuals in particular contexts.

    Black men and women should be free to choose their partners. We should all be free to choose and make our own culture and history.

  59. Michelle wrote:

    To lunanoire…

    I just wanted to cosign your post. I think that you brought up points that should not be ignored in any discussion of inter or intra racial relationships.

    When it comes to education versus intelligence, there is a huge difference, yes, but in reality, I have found that within the Back community, the gap between higher education and someone who has a blue collar job, is ever widening. I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) that the educational trend of “tracking” students, i.e. supposedly targeting children with higher IQs or who have displayed more apptitude, has only served to further divide the Black community, in particular. I think that is why “finding a man with a blue-collar job” is not as simple as it sounds. I think that some Black women find that it is not just about a degree or earning potential, it is more about a person’s mentality. Some of the time, a person without a degree will pin the designation of “bougie”(sp?) on the person with the degree, as if a degree makes you “uppity” or “snooty”. Any one else feel that way sometimes?

    Is it still okay to talk about the strengthening of the Black community? The importance of raising Black kids in communities where people look like them? And please, these are not snarcky little questions…I am really curious to know if we (thinkers, philosophers, bohemian, progressive, intelligent, etc.) think that those things are still important? Or do they ultimately mean that we won’t be moving forward in our multiracial movement? I mean, is there still mileage in Latino and Black people arguing for racial solidarity? Or is there no place for that in our current society?

  60. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Michelle -

    I’m actually tackling that topic for the October issue of Clutch! :-)

    I’ll ask Carmen to post a link once it is complete, but it does explore how race plays into identity, and the idea of racial pride in our increasingly multi-cultural society.

  61. tasha wrote:

    Latoya, I realize that the single motherhood wasn’t mentioned in the article, but I find it rather difficult at times to discuss the marriage rate of black women and not allude to that, probably because, by virtue of definition, those black single mothers aren’t married. However, various other figures were included that might explain the rationale behind why the profiled black women would be motivated to date interracially, and I’m not referring to the ones concerning black men’s incarceration and unemployment rates, (which I didn’t even bring up because I know those figures are skewered) for example, the statistic that over three quarters of the black/white interracial couples involve black husbands.

    Maybe your critique was meant to be fluffy, cute and snarky or whatever, I don’t know; but when I was reading your initial response, I felt as if you were more intent on criticizing the little insidious devices being used in the piece: “black male underachieving stereotype” “date out/takeout,” “is it really something new” then actually considering what would motivate these women to make the choice that they did. But of course, after reading some of these comments, I know what motivated the black women to seek out white partners, that wily culprit called the media, which puts white men on a pedestal. It wasn’t because of the personal experiences of the black women, because we all know that black women are incapable of surveying their own environment and formulating sound opinions based on what they see around them, like the one woman Toinetta Jones who alluded to feeling snubbed and passed over by black men in her neighborhood who wanted to date interracially. So, when my cousin looks around her and sees that there are more girls in her classes than boys, when she starts at Hampton, I’m going to tell her, that she’s mistaken, and that it’s all an illusion. That statistic about the 75% of black-white couples involving black men, that too is a myth. All of this talk about how these black women think they’re rising above their station by marrying white, and the article didn’t even read that way. It came across as if these women had exhausted many possibilities in finding black mates with similar credentials and perspectives, and THEN sought out other options. Not “Yippee, I have a white man” but more like, “Damn, it’s come to this? (no offense Tom)” Think about it. Do you think it’s a coincidence that these women in the article are in their 30’s? If they really wanted white men all along, like Eric suggests, then wouldn’t they have come to that realization is little sooner in life?

    (CNN/AP quote) “Even after college, Roslyn Holcomb struggled to meet professional black men.”I wanted to get married (and) have children,” she said. “If I was only meeting one guy a year, or every few years, that wasn’t going to happen.The Alabama author eventually married white.”

    Latoya, you talk about the “so called experts”, mentioning that film “Diary of the Tired Black Man” or something, that Harlem Club guy or whoever, but what about the comment from the Howard psychology professor about how black women are being socialized to stick by their men? Doesn’t the data regarding the black women and interracial marriage support that? And yes, Evia’s blog is over the top, but I don’t think that she purposely seeks to discourage black women from dating non-black men that aren’t white. I think that she doesn’t know of many couples of that variety. The majority of the pictures of the regular non-celeb couples are submitted to Evia from fans of the blog. A recent post of hers’ mentioned a black woman living in Japan with her Japanese husband and included a link to that woman’s blog about her experiences dating Asian men. And as for the focus on the article being black-white, is it possible that the women in the article were never approached by non-black men that weren’t white? I’m a young, black woman and split most of my time between VA and Florida, and while black, hispanic, and white men approach me, I don’t seem to be very popular with Asian men.

  62. Tiffany in Houston wrote:

    As a 34 year old professional black woman with a graduate degree I’d have to say that Tanya’s comment is spot on.

    After ending yet another relationship with a black man that didn’t end in marriage (not because they weren’t decent guys, just because it just didn’t work out), you do start to re-evaluate whether you are limiting yourself. I’ve dated blue collar (they are usually too threatened), I’ve dated the dude with ‘potential’ who you end up trying to ‘fix’ and I’ve been very fortunate to have dated some overall very decent men, all of whom have been black.

    HOWEVER, I’m over men not having their shit together and wanting you to be a ‘dime’. I’m over men at age 35 who can’t balance a checkbook and live like they are still in college. Unfortunately, a lot of the men that I am meeting who are living like that are black. What’s a girl to do?

    LaToya, something ‘new’ might be tired to YOU, but I’d love to ask you that same question ten years from now. You’re about 23 or 24 aren’t you???

  63. Mike wrote:

    I don’t know maybe because I grew up in New York and now live in Atlanta that I have a hard time buying into the lack of qualified blk men in this country. To me it seems that women who whine about this are just making excuses. You want to date outside your race than do it, don’t sit there and spit out the reasons you can’t get a BMW because of the same exact reasons the white controlled media tells you. If it’s that serious than move to were there are more qualified BM. BM don’t sweat this issue like women do. If you cant get a bm maybe there something wrong with you. And blaming BM for being color struck, is 1990. No man is going to put up with a sorry women regardless of color. And no man wants to be pushed into marriage which it seems a lot of BW are doing. Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free? Interracial dating maybe up but marriage is down and men have there reasons for that. When bw have a problem with men it gets turned into a song, a book, a blog, a movie, a magazine cover and a vent session with the sistas. When bm have a problem we have a drink mention it to the fellas one time and thats the end of the story. We take each women as they come. If you want to know whats going on with BM here is a great idea ASK A BM, as opposed to doing the blind leading blind thing and asking other women who can’t find one, or even worse asking white people which is exactly what you do when you spit out national statistics and repeat verbatim what the media tells you. I’ve never been asked to take a survey, a poll or asked by them and I don’t know of any bm that have so how would they know?

  64. Wendi Muse wrote:

    Mike,
    I agree with u abt there being a double standard when it comes to covering the issue or IRs and black women’s vs. men’s (again, media coverage) motivation for engaging in them. However, I think the tension is exacerbated by such coverage and unfairly gendered. Nothing beats an angry black woman when you’re trying to get good ratings or incite frustrated anger in your readership (besides maybe angry muslims and black male criminals. Those work well too).

  65. EvilAngelfish wrote:

    After reading Mike’s post, I wish someone *would* poll men about this “new” issue.
    Do black men feel angry or affronted when women of their race choose to date/marry out? Why? It would seem that every black woman who ends up with a non-black husband is one less whining sista trying to push black men into marriage. Or do they only get defensive when black women explain it by talking about the “lack” of qualified black men? I bet some guys have the sentiment (with which I agree), “Well, just because *you* couldn’t find one doesn’t mean there aren’t any” but I don’t think it can all be boiled down to there being something wrong with these women. Obviously the non-black guy they ended up with doesn’t think so.

    This article seems to trivialize and sensationalize a topic that’s not really all that new but is far more complex than CNN (or most media outlets) care to acknowlegde. What’s more newsworthy, that black women are openly considering black men as relationship candidates or that white men are openly considering black women?

    The article (and the tone of some of the comments) seems to suggest that dating out is a last-ditch strategy or a desperate measure that might actually work out but certainly isn’t the recommended way to go if you can help it. My opinion is that women don’t want to get stuck with guys who like drinking milk but won’t “buy the cow”. Most women want to marry a man who is compatible and who will best fit the role of husband and father. If she doesn’t find what she deems to be a suitable (for her needs) candidate among the members of her race, why fault a woman for checking out other options? Maybe part of the reason some women toss out statistics and lament being able to find qualified men of their race/class is precisely because they know that they’ll have to come up with an explanation to justify their choice to date/marry interracially. I’m all for solidarity but I don’t think that a woman of a particular race will only find ideal happiness with a husband of that race. I also don’t think that “marrying out” necessarily makes a woman any less supportive of her community.

  66. eric daniels wrote:

    Tasha and Tanya in Houston you don’t have to justify your dating choices just live your lives and stay out of Black America’s buisness. Evia is calling BM genetically flawed is just as igorant as Wesley Snipes assertion in Ebony Magazine in 1995. Here are the numbers Tasha,

    Black Men / White Female 275,000
    Black Women/ White Men 117,000

    for a grand total of 196,000 Black Couples as spouses of whites. I don’t see White Men/White Women chasing black folks all over America, people date IR and in many cases they eventually marry someone of the same ethnic group. And stop sterotyping every Blue Collar or career - type guy Tanya because I know many Black Women professionals and Black Men who are Blue Collar and have been married from 1 -30 years and they are not afraid ot their wife’s degree.

    Remember there are 38 million Black Americans and only 196,000 of them are married to a white spouse ,the same number as 1969 when they started keeping stats on IR couples less than one percent and the media is driving the story more than the average person.

    What needs to be shown more is actual loving Black, Asian, Latino Couples instead of Halle Berry, Cuba Gooding, Kerry Washington,Eve Kennan Ivory Wayans, Kobe Bryant or some other IR combos in the media. When Benjiman Bratt was dating Julia Roberts he couldn’t stay out of the camera, the minute he married Juanita De Jesus he disapeared like Fried Chicken at a picnic table. The problem is some Black Women are acting as trifling as some Black Men who think the solution to their lack of love is WHITE PEOPLE.

    It cheapens white people’s humanity and creates even bigger problems in race relations, white people are not pixies who can solve some Black Folk’s complex self- esteem issues with themselves.

  67. Michelle wrote:

    Mike,

    No offense, but I found your post a little unhelpful. I think that this is a perfect forum for men and women of color to have frank and honest discussions about our relationships. But let’s try a little harder to just stay more open to what other’s are saying.

    I recognize that it is easy to say “If you ain’t found a man, it’s cause of you.” But Mike, do you think that perhaps neither bm or bw should shoulder all the blame….but perhaps we should take responsibility, together? Which is why I asked the question earlier…is racial solidarity still on the table, as it were?

    Here’s a question Mike….I don’t have hard data, but it seems to me that BY AND LARGE, when you see a White man over 30 who indeed has his shit together (the highly intellectual term for having a bank account, a job, a GED, a basic grip on his mental health and good dental hygiene), that man is married, looking for marriage, ready for marriage, assumes he will be married soon or is engaged to be married. I believe that BY AND LARGE his Black male counterpart is, simply put, on a completey different page. Marriage is not assumed, not really on the table, not in the immediate future and basically not on the radar in general. Mike, can you see some truth in my statement? Now, I am not saying all bm and all wm fall into these broad generalities. I am making these generalities for the sake of furthering this discussion. Mike, do you feel that when it comes to marriage, bm and bw are just coming from different places?

  68. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Michelle,

    Maybe part of the problem is that you appear to primarily judge men based on their bank account.

    Many women share this problem with you, and it’s really unfortunate.

    Just the other day, I was reading a blog put out by a White woman named Moxie http://moxieblog.typepad.com/moxieblog/
    who was telling her fellow upscale White New York women that they shouldn’t judge men by their paychecks.

    According to Moxie, that’s why dating is easier for White men than it is for White women - White men just judge a woman based on weather they find her attractive. By contrast, White women care what kind of job he has, where he went to college, what neighborhood he lives in, what kind of house he has, how that house is decorated ect.

    See the parallel?

    And how it crosses racial lines?

    Here’s a hint, Michelle - why not just date men you are attracted to, irregardless of their employment or educational status.

    And yes, mabye give an unemployed man a shot.

    Yeah, I said it..

    I’ve dated a number of unemployed Black women - and one of those relationships ended up being the best relationship I ever had.

    If it worked for me, why can’t it work for you?

    After all, what are you looking for - a soulmate or a meal ticket????

  69. Wendi Muse wrote:

    eric,

    your point about media cover of white + non-white IRs is really insightful i think. it really does seem like the whiteness is what validates the relationship for the media. however, i wonder if it’s just a matter of who is more famous? julia roberts would probably beat out juanita de jesus in so far as worldwide fame is concerned. they take pictures of what sells papers and magazines, so i have a feeling that the level of celebrity may have more of an impact than race.

  70. Tiffany in Houston wrote:

    Eric: I detect more than a little hostility, but I’m going to over look that.

    First off my name is Tiffany, not Tanya. :)
    Secondly, to date, I’ve never even officially even dated a white guy. All my relationships have been with black men. I remain open to dating brothers, however I’m definitely NOT going to be so close minded anymore.

    At any rate, how are the choices I make to date/mate correlate to ‘being in Black America’s business’, you do realize that that particular statement makes absolutely no sense. Come on dude, you can make a better argument than that.

    I agree with Michelle’s statement. Brothers who do have their ’shit’ together (maybe even a brother like yourself, Eric) know that they are a hot commodity and work that angle for what it’s worth. Some men I know, show not the slightest interest in settling down. They say they are having too much ‘fun’..LOL! Hell, if I were them I might not want to settle down either.

    I do think we are coming from TWO different mindsets when it comes to marriage and stability and part of that comes from being hard wired differently. But the other part that comes into play are some of the inherent gender based inbalances in our communities and I think any honest person would have to admit to that.

  71. eric daniels wrote:

    Michelle, where are all these white men knocking down the doors asking BW to marry them? like I said before, most people are open in 2007 to dating across racial barriers and that’s a good thing but 80-90 percent of all ethnic groups intramarry. Should we say this again for Michelle, Tasha, Tanya….

    total amount of African- Americans in mixed marriages 450,000 - 500,000

    WM/BF - 58,500
    WF/BM -135,000

    If White Men ” have their stuff toegther” as you say Michelle, why aren’t they beating down the doors marrying all these single, educated, lonely, loving, smart BW. Maybe it’s time some Black Women in this country practiced something called “Personal Responsiblity” for the relationships they get themselves involved in.

    I know some Black Men who are in graduate school or own their own buisness and can’t even get any amount of play or a date from college educated BW, One buddy told me some Black Women want a player, thug or a emotionally detached Brotha because in their eyes these guys “just work too hard” or ‘aint exicting enough’. That does not excuse those BM who are playing those sistas for fools or the educated ones who think they can take advantage of a situation and show the worst traits in male evolution.

    Both sides are at fault and need to take repsonsiblity. And you know what, Alexander is right about one point, some BM and BW need to excercise and expand their options and ‘date out’ because all they will do is make a potential Black Partner bitter and angry for no reason.

  72. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    “I know some Black Men who are in graduate school or own their own buisness and can’t even get any amount of play or a date from college educated BW, One buddy told me some Black Women want a player, thug or a emotionally detached Brotha because in their eyes these guys “just work too hard” or ‘aint exicting enough’.”

    Brother Eric, you hit the nail on the head - there are some educated Black women who would prefer a thug to a decent brother.

    I had a sista with a masters degree from NYU tell me I wasn’t a “real Black man” because I had “never been in a fistfight or a gunfight” (she prefered to date ex cons - or psycho ex Marines).

    My sister’s best friend refused to go on a second date with me because I didn’t have any out of wedlock children (and, in her mind, any brotha over 25 who didn’t have at least one baby mama was gay!)

    Not to say all the educated sistas are like that - but there are quite a few who think that way.

  73. Cindy wrote:

    It’s an ignorant man who ignores what he sees. I live in the midwest and I see all day every day IR BM/WW couples and single, dateless BW. I have gone to the movies and literally see BM mocking BW because their dates are WW. These are things BW are assaulted with everyday and whites see this too. When I was in college, white males asked me out because they saw so many BM dating WW. I was blackballed by the BM on campus, because they simply saw me talking to a WM. I have 5 daughters and they came home constantly with stories of how they were snubbed by BM. I think BM have a double standard for BW and I agree with an earlier post that stated “a number of BM find it empowering to see BW alone and they feel threatened when the stage starts to become equal. For BW to be treated better by BM, BW will have to appeal to all men. I feel it is BM who esteem white people higher than their own. BM have actually helped substantiate the idea that white is better than black. They constantly show them in the media saying WW are better than BW in every area, a WW walks on water for them. You can tell by the media, that when they interview a BM about who he finds to be sexy, they don’t say a dark-skinned BF, they say “J-Lo, or Beyonce, or a WF.

    If you want to see unity in the community, BM are going to have to take the initiative to make that happen, show leadership. BW have been carrying the ball by themselves, to a fault. I am reminded of the “Brick Mason Daughters” movie, and the BM made it a point that his daughters were not going to be Mammies, maids and whores. This was a true story and he was so right. What you largely see in the Black community now is mammies, maids and whores. These women are the products of homes where there were no fathers. They don’t know what love is and they were only exposed to hurt, depressed, bitter mothers. They don’t know how to handle a relationship, only what they see on tv. Because, tv reinforces certain negative attitudes of BW, impressionable and silly women embrace it as being them. This has translated into what everyone sees as all BW with attitudes. I don’t know why it is so hard to understand this.

    If we don’t sit down and weed out all of the negativity we have towards one another, there is no point of return.

    To me it takes a lot for a WM to fall in love with a BW and vice versa. I don’t see it as a step down, I see it as someone who must truly love you if they fall for you in spite of. The Lovings had to overcome a lot of obstacles in spite of, but Mr. Loving’s answer was always, I simply love her. With BM/BF (I have 5 daughters) today, they want so much from each other, and if they don’t measure up, they are quick to break up or get a divorce.

    I think the first thing we as a Black community need to do is quit lying to one another, get rid of the self-hatred, (quit waiting for white people to say it’s okay to be black) and love one another.

  74. eric daniels wrote:

    lolololol Cindy, You are saying there are all these Black Men mocking BW with their WW, like I said again,

    137,500 Black American Men who are married to White Women or igorant men who just likes to stick it in some BW faces how about those men are just being childish. This is the result of more freedom and options for Black Women via education. Before Loving, most IR marriages were BW/WM, Black Men in the South and elsewhere in this country could be lynched or killed for even looking at a WW. the pathos by some Black Folk (including me) on this issue is getting old.

    Whether calling a Black Men DBR (damaged beyond repair) by people like Evia and Halimia or Black Men like Wesley Snipes and Snoop calling Black Women hard to deal with and looking at White Folks as ‘their saviors’ from their self- hate issues is becoming like a Black Woody Allen movie of extreme self- loathing, If I was White, Japanesse, Desi, Nigeran, Chinese, Latin I wouldn’t date Black Americans either because our minds have been screwed over with so much racial BS being shoved either by whites, politcans, the media, and not to be exculded Black Men and women themselves.

    My motto to these people go to a theapist or if you are a college graduate expand your options and live your lives. This “Something New” sensation like “Gay Chic” in the 1990’s will pass and most Black Men and Women will live their livs and love another. I am sorry sistas and brothas, but money,a good education and kicking body and face does not guarntee you love or the American Dream of a…

    million dollar home
    2.5 kids
    a dog named “sweet pea” (my mother’s dog)
    a cat named “Olivia”
    and a home in the burbs

    To quote the Rollings Stones “You can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you get what you need” some of us in this life will never find love, major dollars or anything but a life.I hope you posters on this blog find whatever you dream of but for some of these Black Women to think that a degree comes with a husband is self- loathing of the highest level and the waste of an education because it was supposed to free you from those “ideals”.

  75. Wendi Muse wrote:

    i think cindy is totally right when it comes to the media and how it affects dating. black women are, for the most part, still rendered un-datable by media representations. we are placed in either completely desexualized mammy-esque roles or oversexualized (read: an intimidating threat to our partners or simply “used goods) roles. even the black women who fit stereotypical, media-friendly beauty ideals are portrayed with a diva complex or an attitude problem, unless of course, there is a lighter-skinned woman somewhere in the distance to pick up the pieces (hello, Norbit?).

    i’m quite frustrated by these images because i consider myself to be an example of their not being true (as i don’t have an attitude problem, i don’t walk around in a bikini shaking my ass and showering in champagne, and i’m not hideous) along with a ton of black women i know. but for those who don’t get the time to know us, the stereotype prevails, somewhat rendering us to a position of dating world pariahs, especially considering the only “positive” aspect of our stereotyping is that we’re strong (which, unfortunately, considering sexism, can also be seen as a big downer in male/female heterosexual relationships)

    i think what SHOULD be done here is that black women and men should focus less on blame (as we have seen far too much of already in the comments here alone) and date whomever they want. considering that so many black women (myself included) feel that the odds are against us in the dating world with regard to images of ourselves in the media, we need to buck tradition and not be afraid to ask out people ourselves. as women (again, yay sexism), we have been taught to let the man do the pursuing, but we should not limit ourselves in that way because it may be holding us back and could be considered a big part of this problem.

    i say if you have a grievance, don’t wait on anyone else to fix it. black women have been historically known to do quite a few things on their own that don’t follow suit with traditional gender roles, so i think in this case, we should continue on as with everything else and do it ourselves.

  76. eric daniels wrote:

    Wendi, I have not wanted to say this concerning this issue, but it ties into what I have thought for the last 20 years or so. There is no Black Community and hasn’t been one since the early 1980’s. What we are fighting for is personal freedom in our own lives and what it means to be Black in America in 2007, I have been bashed on this board many times for saying this but Bm and Bw have different agendas in our politcal, social, and personal lives and that’s the result of the hard won freedoms of the 50’s and 60’s.

    Wendi, from what I am reading is that modern Black American Women want recoginition for being embraced as a total human being not just a sexual, matriarchal or harpy sterotype that men have thrown about if I am being correct here, I think Tim Alexander is right about some of the things he said like….

    “To a certain degree, black people are sick of each other,” Alexander said. “It would be better for black men and black women to open their options.”

    Even though I wouldn’t have gotten engaged 6 times, the 5,000 pound elephant in the living room is what does an IR couple especially the spouse wants to comment about Black Relationships. This has been a sticking point for me personally because I think the minute you slip on a wedding ring to someone of another race you should exclude yourselves from commenting on Black intraracial love.

    It’s just common sense and basic respect , I believe if a Black Partner wants to comment on Black Culture , music, politcal thought and race issues I have no problem, but I do consider IR couples outsiders when it comes to our intraracial romances because these are issues for BM/BW to solve. That’s the price of personal freedom that you are not privy to every aspect of “Black Family Buisness”.

    Wendi, that would be like me marrying a Jewish Woman and I don’t convert and then we make comments about why Jewish Men are so dominating and why Jewish Women love to spend money , if I was Jewish and believed that our culture and love was worth preserving I would tell them to “MYODB”. This is the issue in my opinion, Black Folks who still think they can make comments even though they don’t date or associate with Black Americans.

  77. eric daniels wrote:

    Wendi I am not trying to be mean here, but what I am saying that there was this scene from the HBO movie ‘And the Band Played On’ and the Alan Alda playing Dr. Gallo is meeting with the French Doctors in Paris and the Matthew Modine character is looking to go into the room and Gallo says “I want to meet with my peers” and shuts the door in his face. Some friends of mine were talking about that scene and thought Gallo was wrong, I disagreed and said that in his mind Modine was now the outsider and was not privy to this conversation.

    Gallo wanted to talk to his peers, when it comes to racial romance that means BM/BW who value Black Love ,not outsiders like Wesley Snipes and Debra Dickerson or the white partners of Black spouses who are just as bad at making comments.

  78. Wendi Muse wrote:

    eric,
    was that comment meant for me? it didn’t address anything i was talking about regarding media representations and women being more open to being forward…so i just wanted to make sure…

  79. Michelle wrote:

    I just want to be clear about my previous post.

    1. I never said “white men have their shit together”. I said “white men WHO have their shit together” and then went on to compare them to their Black male counterparts, i.e. Black men who have their shit together. The WHO makes a big difference.

    2. I don’t see how from my post a person could assume that I judge my potential partners by their bank accounts. I said that simply having a bank account was enough. I didn’t say that it had to have much in it, just that having a bank account, to me is the sign of a person who has the potential of being fiscally responsible. I think there are many people who would agree that having a bank account is one (not the only, not the most important) sign of being a responsible adult. Please do not collapse the concept of simply having a bank account with the concept of being wealthy.

    3. I never implied that the aforementioned wm who had their shit together were knocking down doors trying to marry Black women. I was saying that in my opinion, they were far more open to idea of marriage in general than their bm counterparts.

    You know, I don’t know about dating a man who is unemployed. Rather, I don’t think I want to date a man who is chronically umemployed. Of course, it is a case by case scenario, but it seems to me that there is something attractive about a man who has a job. Are there any other ladies/people out there who feel me? I have dated men who were unemployed and it can be a very frustrating time in a man’s life.

    And to be fair, I don’t know any women personally who only want a rough neck, but if you gentlemen have experienced such ignorance, I believe you. It is sad, and again, this is why I think this forum is so important. So we can share experiences and ideas and, to quote Sombra, “further the discourse”.

    Eric, sadly, I think you are right. I don’t think that there is a Black community anymore. I don’t know when and I don’t know how, but I think that the Black community that I “fight” for is at best, in extreme decay or at worse, extinct. I think that you are right when you said that bw and bm no longer have the same agenda, largely because of the gains we fought so hard for in the 50’s and 60’s. The problem is, there is still a Black America. And in that Black America, the cycles of poverty still go round and round. Those cycles were put in place by institutionalized racism and the question is, in the absence of a Black community, what happens to Black America? Any thoughts?

    Cindy, you are also right on in your post. To quote Eric, the 5,000 lb elephant in the room, to me, is the fact that there is a heirarchy of beauty and worth in our country that is based on race. I agree with you Cindy, in the way that you articulate the meanings of that heirarchy in marriage and dating. And Wendy, I am there with you as well (although I do love a good champagne shower every other day). We can take our image back, and in doing so reconfigure gender roles and concepts like we have been doing for centuries.

  80. La - msviswan wrote:

    Aimee wrote to Camille:

    ”…. That makes it sound like if you COULD find a black man, you WOULD. “

    First of all, I really wish people would stop comparing reasons for black woman dating in IR’s. As I said before, no other race of women are as oppressed by their “own” in the dating area as black women (It’s still a fact, admit it or not). So regardless, even if it was an “option” move, it would only be inevitable for some single black women to do. To compare or judge, knowing the disproportioned circumstances would be highly unfair either way.

    ”I can’t imagine being a white man with a black woman who feels this way.”

    If you’re not a white male then you will never have the privy on actually knowing and talking on their behalf. Also, for the white male population to show objection to being an “option”, would only show them having a bruised white male superiority ego complex. Black, Asian etc. men don’t seem to have that much objection being an “option” when the idolized white female just happen to float their way only because she can’t find a compatible white male.

    Orvile said:

    ”…. Why not go to church? Why not GET OUT THERE. Get out of your COMFORT ZONE. I just find it really annoying and irritating when some black heterosexual women want to blame black men for ALL THEIR PROBLEMS.”

    Who says single black women are not doing these very things and more. Why can’t you just admit there’s really a serious shortage of eligible black men even for black women. When other professional non-black women go out looking for black men to date, do you think they go looking for the black male sanitation worker? So, why do black women have to “down” thier standards? Do other race tell their women to “down” their standards as well?

    Furthermore, black women have always been prone to “settle” and share among themselves for decades just to have a …”black man”. Why can’t you and others just admit black women who prefer a black mate (in whatever class), still have to deal with more competition among themselves, non-black women AND other men – obviously.

    ”I just don’t agree with the subversive racism that white men are somehow better then blk men because that’s not true.

    I agree. Now, you also need to go on over to those surplus discussion groups where black men dish out their blatant disdain for black women over the preferred white and non-black female. There are hundreds of groups, blogs, and websites that promote this hatred, so you may also have to hire staff to assist you in keeping up with them. If you so care…

    Eric needs to re-arrange his unreal true vs. false statistics, period. I also think Mike, Orvile, Eric and a few others are the epitome of my previous statement in another above post, when I said: “Not to mention black society and even black men who date out won’t let black women go without a fight (despite what they may say about not caring). Some would rather see black women unhappy or they rather keep them at their disposal.”

    It’s depressing how valid and obvious issues and concerns of black women and girls always get dismissed, once it over shadows or brings out the truth on the privileged and selfish needs of some black men. I couldn’t even finish read all the comments.

  81. friedfishribs wrote:

    Wendi:

    I wonder if the suggestions of pairing Asian American men and African American women have anything to do with stereotypes commonly associated with both groups. Asian American men are stereotyped as not conforming to traditional notions of masculinity, while African American women are stereotyped as lacking traditional femininity. Both groups have been caricatured as asexual and subservient (the coolie and the mammy) and both groups have lower rates of interracial relationships than their opposite sex racial equivalent.

    I’m not sure I like the idea of matching and pairing based on exclusion from the interracial dating party.

  82. tasha wrote:

    friedshribs

    read through some more of the comments on this thread again. The discussion involving the desire to see more black female/asian male pairings didn’t really have anything to do with dating hirearchies and totem pole sterotypes. It had to do with the article portraying white men as the only available or suitable non-black option. In my last post, I, a BF, alluded to how Asian men never approach me, while non-black men of other races, particularly white men, do. That could very well be because I live in VA, and when I encounter non-black men, they are usually white. When I’m in Florida, it’s a different story. I can only speak for myself, but I don’t think my experience is uncommon and drastically different from other black women, when it comes to interracial dating.

    La-msviswan wrote:

    ” When other professional non-black women go out looking for black men to date, do you think they go looking for the black male sanitation worker? So, why do black women have to “down” thier standards? Do other race tell their women to “down” their standards as well?”

    Well put. I was reluctant to touch on this myself. This practice of dating “down” is heavily prescribed for black women in particular. Even Tiffiany in Houston has had to back-track and explain to the class why she’s not elitest for wanting a companion with credentials similar to or better than her own. As a black woman, how dare she?

  83. Michelle wrote:

    I would just like to point out that when I suggested that a bank account was a positive attribute, I was immediately labeled as a person who only judged men by their bank accounts.

    It was also suggested that I try dating a man who is unemployed.

    However, earlier on, some of the men said that we as Black women are to blame for choosing the wrong kind of black men. Some also complained that some Black women are at fault for only wanting a rough neck, someone who has been shot at and who has the bullet wounds to prove it, or a nice collection of baby’s mamas. Which is it? Are our standards too low or too high?

    So, I have to say, if I am supposed to be open to a man who is unemployed, am I wrong for wanting him to have some kind of education? And at what point should I draw the line? If I say he has to have at least a GED, is that too stuck up of me?

    Tasha and Ribs….I think I have to cosign. In dating, you have to have the right mix of standards and openess. Yes, the person might not have graudated from college, but he should have an interest and love of education. And maybe he doesn’t work on Wall Street, but he should not be a chronically unemployed man whose sole passion is his Xbox.

    Are there any Asian women out there who are told by Asian men that their standards are too high because they might prefer a man with a college degree. If that is a common discussion within Asian comunities, I would love to know. Latina women, South East Asian women….White women? It seeems that Black women get that lecture with great frequency.

  84. K. wrote:

    Eric,

    Why repeat the number of marriages in the BC when we all know the marriage rate among blacks in quite low and does not accurately reflect what is going on in the BC.

    Anyway in NYC or LA will have witnessed the large numbers of WW with mixed race kids. Yes they may not be marrying BM but they are in relationships in ever increasing numbers.

    Since the majority of BM do not marry, stats are hard to come by. But I am sure many of us see with our own eyes.

    I live in NYC and I see relatively few BW/BM couples.

  85. K. wrote:

    Eric,

    I agree there is no “black community” and very rarely do I see traditional black families.

    So you are correct in saying blacks consist of “individuals concerned with thier own self interest.”

    Certainly, this is true of BM, who are mostly absent from the black home.

    And now we see BW seeking more and more to pursue their own self interest and less so of the “black community” over all.

    What next????

  86. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Michelle -

    I’m genuinely curious about this statement “…but it seems to me that there is something attractive about a man who has a job.”

    You know, unless I met a woman at her job, the LAST thing I notice about a woman is her employment status.

    Looks - yes

    Personality - yes

    Baggage (the lack therof) - absolutely yes

    Not having a nasty attitude/”chip on her shoulder” - YES

    Character - yes

    But, since those things are all totally independent of what a person does for a living, the fact that they have a job is irrelevant to my finding them attractive.

    And I have dated unemployed women - and it really wasn’t an issue with me.

    Not to be sexist, but is it some kind of “woman thing” to be attracted to a man’s job?

    Sounds kinda golddiggerish to me…..

  87. LM wrote:

    Gregory A. Butler,

    Are you kidding me? It’s “kinda golddiggerish” for Michelle to wonder about a man’s employment status, or whether he has a bank account?

    She’s gone to some length to make clear that she’s just talking about someone with “his shit together,” which doesn’t specify a certain financial or educational status beyond a) having a bank account and b) completing a high school level education. Further, she writes, “it is not just about a degree or earning potential, it is more about a person’s mentality.” Having some semblance of compatibility there is important to any long-term relationship.

    You’re right, “there are some educated Black women who would prefer a thug to a decent brother,” and many “educated” women overlook decent men because of the kind of work they do. Your valid points will stand up on their own; you don’t have to knock someone else down.

    A few quick comments on employment and banking from the perspective of a financial advisor who often works with people who don’t have jobs or bank accounts:

    1) almost everyone will be involuntarily unemployed at some point in their lives. By itself, that’s a temporary status. If someone makes a negative judgment of someone who’s legitimately “between jobs” but it otherwise worthwhile, shame on them, and they’ll not get what they could have had. But there are people who would do well to expand their education/skill set and to seek paid work because their lives are limited by what they lack, and for whatever reason they don’t. That’s trouble if you want a relationship to flower.

    2) it’s much easier to get a checking account nowadays than to get a job. There are a lot of people in this country who still don’t have a bank account, and whenever I meet one I tell them to hurry up and get one. You’re unfamiliar or suspicious of the financial machinery in this country/world? So what, go ahead and get one ’cause otherwise you’ll be severely limited. You don’t have to maintain a huge balance. Some of the best people I know, in very successful relationships, struggle to pay the bills. But having a bank account is one sign that they’re on the road to a better place.

    I’m rambling by now, but my end point is this: solid individuals make for better couples make for better families make for better children. Start at the beginning.

  88. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    LM -

    “having a bank account is one sign that they’re on the road to a better place.”

    What in the blue hell do you mean by that, LM?

    Do you mean a better place FINANCIALLY?

    I agree with you on that.

    But if you’re trying to say they’re a better person because they do business with a financial institution, you have go to be kidding!!!!

    I’m not a finanical advisor, I’m a carpenter, so maybe I judge people a little differently than you do (very differently, it would seem).

    And, for the record, I have not one but two bank accounts (a checking and a savings, at Banco Popular) as well as an annuity account through the New York District Council of Carpenters (annuities are a union version of a 401k - except the boss pays into it, instead of me)

    But the fact that I have a bank account doesn’t have a good God damned thing to do with my character!!!

    I know some great people who don’t have bank accounts.

    And I know some people who are total human slime who have an elaborate network of accounts at reputable financial institutions.

    Actually, all of the convicted felons I know have bank accounts - does that make them good people in your book??? - cause it sure as hell doesn’t in mine!!!

    Also, for the record, I have never asked any woman I dated if she had a bank account - because, since we weren’t legally married or living together, it was quite frankly none of my business!!!!

    But if I were to meet you in a bar, would you expect me to show you my ATM card and last month’s bank statement before you’d have a conversation with me???

    To paraphrase that great philosopher Kanye West “I ain’t saying you a golddigger/but you ain’t messin with no broke….” well, you know the rest!!!

    GREGORY A. BUTLER

  89. eric daniels wrote:

    I have said my peace on this issue so I will ask a question to the eligble women who feel Black Men are holding Women from being free. Well here are some questions and I will use Jimi Izrael article as a starting point.

    Many black women are not as eligible as they think. Think you are? Here�s a short test.

    If you have a law degree and can�t cook or clean without whining about it, you are not an eligible woman.

    If you are looking for someone to take care of you, I am not your Daddy. If you see him stop him cause he owes me money. But I am not that brotha and you are not an eligible woman.

    If you are a gossip, you are not an eligible woman.

    If your dad is a punk, women want men like their dads�and you are not an eligible woman.

    If you moms is in our business, kick mud� you are not an eligible woman.

    If you have no ambition beyond the acquisition and stockpiling of material things, you are not an eligible woman.

    If you play mind games, you are not an eligible woman.

    If you are on some Slavery’s legcay is still keeping the black man and woman apart� nope, you and Toby he, who says that Da White Man is keepin me down,can put that stuff on a t-shirt, Kizzy. You are not an eligible woman.

    And also one final one,

    (quote Izrael) There is a post-civil rights “I AM A MAN” black male identity crisis, where it’s kinda okay to be black and proud, but definitely not ok to be heterosexual, black, male, unreconstructed, unappologetic and proud. Black men in this country haven’t established a profile that hasn’t been co-opted and commodified into parody. Yet, we keep puzzling over the Negro Male: building him, destroying him, rebuilding him to destroy yet again. I guess conventional wisdom says that if we accepted him as he was, what black women write books about? Who would be then be the International Bad Guy ? All this time, and we still have to ask what manhood is. Why is that?

    When America and Black Women lets black men be men = the end of homophobia and sexism in the Black community. Seriously.

    I am think the “Lake House” and looking for the only woman I ever loved would be a better option than debating the logic on “Something New” when it’s just old news for a new era.

  90. Michelle wrote:

    Mr. Butler,

    I so regret that I am not making myself clear to you. The optimist in me wants to believe that we are having a mars/venus type of communication breakdown and it is as simple as trying again.

    Mr. Butler, please allow me to try again.

    First of all, I hear what you are saying. A bank account does not equal a strong moral character. I COMPLETELY agree. A job does not equal strong moral character. I COMPLETELY agree.

    I really think, Mr. Butler, that we are looking at two different things. As a woman, I have come across my share of men who are CHRONICALLY UNEMPLOYED. So let me more precise. I think that a person who, like LM stated, is between jobs because they are changing careers or have been laid off or just tough luck, is a very specifc situation and I would never judge a person based upon an arbitrary set of circumstances. However, like I said before, I have dealt with men who are chronically umemployed. Those men don’t seem to have any desire to find a job or keep a job. That for me is a problem. As a woman, I don’t know if it is genetic, but I am very much attracted to a man who can sit down and tell me about what he does for a living and how he sees that as a contribution to his community and the world. I think there is something beautiful and incredibly sexy about a man who feels the need to use his skills and talents to better the world and yes, his own financial situation.

    The idea of a carpenter (you) and a financial planner (LM) are both equally exciting to me as a woman. But the idea of a man who does not have a job and who won’t get a job is not attractive. I have learned that I can’t make someone want to get a job. I have learned that I can’t more about a person than he cares for himself.

    And I don’t want to be crude, Mr. Butler, but if I am out at a bar, I am probably not there looking for a longterm life partner. I think the conversation was about dating for the purposes of mating. Not just casually seeing people and having sexual relationships. In that case, yes, whether or not he has a job or a bank account is none of my business.

    Mr. Butler, you listed looks as very high on your list and a job as very low your list. But, Mr. Butler, you don’t see that as shallow. And I am not saying it is. I respect that. I don’t place the same emphasis on a man’s looks. He can look like Denzel Washington or Christopher Williams, if he doesn’t have any ambition to work for a living then I am not attracted to him. It seems to me that you are attracted to pretty women who are not gainfully employed, and maybe those women are more golddiggerish, versus a woman like me who has a career that she loves and would a support a man and love his dirty drawers for life as long as he has something meaningful that he does with his life. Carpenter, bring it on! Teacher, I am your’s! Financial planner, let’s do this! Mr. Butler, can you perhaps see my point now.

    Lastly, LM was trying to make a point about fiscal resonsibility. I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but I think he was trying to say that if a person takes the time to be fiscally responsible, that person places not only themselves, but their family in a better financial position. Now, he is not making a judgement on that person’s character. He is simply saying that you can be a good person, but still place your family in financial danger by not taking certain steps. Am I right, LM? That is a problem for our communities. I think LM is trying to speak from his expertise. In no way is he judging anyone, at all. It is his job to assess a person’s financial health, that’s all. What does that have to do with who they are? He never made a correlation between their fianancial status and their moral fabric. Mr. Butler, you are being unfair to him, in my opinion.

    Mr. Butler, I am sorry that you think that I am golddiggerish….but I have dealt with many, many broke men. MANY! I am many things but I am far from a golddigger, Mr. Butler.

  91. Gregory A. Butler wrote:

    Michelle,

    You’ve got to understand, as a man, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of somebody finding another person’s JOB sexually attractive.

    I love what I do, carpentry is a great field, I particularly like the specific type of carpentry I do (installing office furniture - basically, the cubicles that every white collar worker is intimately familiar with) and being a carpenter has opened a whole world to me (I’ve become a union activist, and a published author, thanks to my 15 years as a union carpenter).

    With that said, there isn’t a damned thing sexual about what I do.

    So I can’t understand why a woman would find a man’s job sexually exciting (other than her fantasizing about spending his money).

    And remember, I’ve met a lot of women who have a crassly monitary view of men.

    Case in point - my sister’s best friend, who had a child with an ironworker 23 years ago. Since that relationship ended, she’s only dated construction workers - not because she’s facinated by arc welding or the complexities of hanging a fine woodwork panel plumb and level, but because union construction workers in New York City make pretty good money.

    She’s not the only woman that I’ve met who has that golddiggerish mentality.

    (incidentally, she has a job - the last time I spoke to her, she worked for the Port Authority of New York/New Jersey)

    I have met professional women (teachers, program coordinators with not for profits ect) who have this “ambition” of quitting their jobs, marrying a guy with a good job, having 2.5 kids, moving to suburbia and buying a big house and a minivan.

    Of course, they needed some random guy with a good job to contribute the DNA and money to make this dream happen.

    As you might imagine, Michelle - I am NOT that man!!!!!!

    And, after a decade and a half of these experiences (before I was a carpenter, back when I made only $ 6/hr, women had NO interestin me at all!!!) I’ve become kind of cynical about women ESPECIALLY women who show an inappropriate interest in how a man makes his money/how much money he makes!!!

    This may very well be a mars/venus communication problem (I admit, I’m often puzzled by how women communicate) but I hope you have a clearer understanding of where I come from!!!

  92. Tiffany in Houston wrote:

    Michelle - You Rock! That’s how you break it down!!!

  93. LM wrote:

    Gregory A. Butler,

    Chill.

    We have in common that we know cool, high-character people who happen not to have bank accounts. With that out of the way, let me know if you’ve got any reason to think I judge people differently than you do.

    Michelle, kudos for your expansion of my remarks.

    Best to both of you and to anyone else reading.

  94. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    Everyone, please have a look at no. 5 of Racialicious’s comment moderation policy:

    5. In general, let’s stay away from long, drawn-out arguments and fights. Once a thread descends into point-by-point refutations and denials, it has (not always, but a lot of the time) turned to crap.

    I think this thread has reached that point. So let’s chill and move on. Thank you.

  95. eric daniels wrote:

    I am going to the “Lake House” this debate will never end expect in the same recriminations of both sides, That’s the tragedy of the debate this is beyond race, politics or class. This about people accepting the diversity of different thoughts of what compatibility is . That is the result of 40 years of the gender war in Black America.

    Gregory, I am going to find my Sandra Bullock at the ‘Lake House’ whomever she may be. and everybody else ought to look for what makes them secure in this life. Gregory aruging with K, Michelle on Black Men’s lack of whateve and will raise your blood pressure, My true love is based on things than a college degree. I want a true, pure love that transends time and space. . I want someone who I can laugh, cry and the fullness of my humanity can be shown.

  96. foreverloyal wrote:

    Just a note on the attractiveness of a kind of job. This can be independent of the paycheck.
    For instance my dh’s job requires alot of logic, problem-solving as well as people skills.
    Since I find intelligent men attractive, you can see where I would appreciate his kind of job.

    My husband is also handy. I remember watching him in the garage with the circular saw and a drill one day. Since I find a “handy” guy to be extremely masculine, I could also appreciate my dh having a construction job for that reason.

    What you do for a living isn’t the sum total of your personality, but whatever you are doing for 8+ hours a day is a part of who you are. Assuming, of course, that you don’t hate your job.

  97. Dee wrote:

    I don’t see what the problem is with interracial relationships. As a African-American woman I love my race, but I do not limit myself to just my race. I find attractive people in all races. I think it is ridiculous for people to assume that celebrities influence people to date outside of their race. Love knows no color. If I am fortunate to find love it does not matter what color they are. And it will not bother me about what people may say my motivations are.

  98. SolShine7 wrote:

    This is a really interesting post.

    Black woman should date GOOD men, whatever shade they come in.

  99. Why? wrote:

    I hate that they only consider White men/Black women couples when talking about interracial dating. It’s like they’re promoting dating white men and women,only, when looking for love.

  100. lm wrote:

    “I don’t understand why we can’t have more discussions on Black/Asian love (Black woman/Asian man)”

    Because it’s been my experience that Asian men are heavily socialized to “bring home anything but Black”.

    I’ve tried to explore the conundrum on more than one occasion; I keep getting shushed.

  101. lm wrote:

    “You’ve got to understand, as a man, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of somebody finding another person’s JOB sexually attractive.”

    Well, Mr. Butler, there are 2 things that come to mind.

    1) Michelle didn’t say she found a JOB attractive. She said that she finds AMBITION attractive. It’s a subtle, but very important, difference IMO.

    2) You put a great deal of emphasis on finding people and their “attributes” sexually attractive.

    I find your interpretation unnecessarily literal (and have read your comments on other sites, so I can imagine that your response is going to be something along the lines of “sex is the most important part of a relationship, particularly for a MAN!”). However, I understand that it’s your interpretation.

    Personally,
    1) I find ambition a highly attractive personality trait, and I can’t imagine having sex with someone whose personality I’m not attracted to. (Of course, here in the era of “dyme or die”, I’m sure you feel differently.)

    2) Secondly, sex is not the only thing that, for me, constitutes a relationship. It’s important, but it’s not the only — or the first — thing that’s important.

    So I’m wondering whether you can see that just because a set of factors is your set of priorities, it doesn’t mean that it’s the parallel set of priorities for a woman with whom you might become involved — or me, or Michelle, or any woman, for that matter.

    Can you expand your mind to include a different perspective on what’s important?

  102. bdsista wrote:

    Wow, great thread, ok, lets cut to the chase. My mortgage is 3, 360.00 a month. If I am looking for a mate he damn well better be employed. My parents help me now, cuz I have it all on me after my divorce (from a Blasian). But they will not live forever and unless you have another 3000 sq ft with a dance studio in the basement for me to move into, I’m not moving.
    Marrying /dating down-tried it, got sabotaged in law school-(the old break up with you before your finals game) got all C’s, messed up my GPA and subsequent job offers. Not to say that couldn’t have happened with a peer, but we would have at least been studying for the same tests.
    I am almost 50 with a JD, MEd, BS and BA, I am attracted to men in suits. Jobs are sexy -you see how women like pastors? I also am a bellydancer-hell yeah my job is sexy.
    I also like men who can fix things and its better if they look good in suits too. I am an intellectual junkie, I dated a guy in college because I liked his diction. Do I want to marry someone who is not college educated, probably not, unless they love books and knowledge and want to do something with it (its called Ambition)
    My parents were both teachers and both college educated, I am a teacher as well, I was indoctrinated from birth to get good grades, go to college, graduate, marry and be a professional. My mother constantly told me, Be a Doctor don’t marry a doctor-I followed her advice. Unfortunately I did not marry until 40. I have friends at 50 who are professional BW who have never married. Its easy to blame them, but they are decent people. Both now I think would be open IR dating. I might be, but he would have to be on Racialicious and be an active anti-racist. I don’t choose, its too scary to open myself to rejection from others. But if a WM pursued me, I would probably respond positively, if we were compatible. Just doesn’t happen to me… ever. I don’t think I am alone.

    You can call it classism, but money is a reality. You don’t work hard all your life to live like you are in college. When you get older, you want something comfortable-I am beginning to realize that.
    I was raised to not date WM, ironically my first boyfriend and lover was a WM, until I transferred to an HBCU, then I dated very smart brothas and still hold out for one.
    As to choices, the reality is most of the time Men ask Women out. If a BW asks a man out she is usually seen as the stereotypical strong, bossy BW by men of all races.
    Gregory if you have those educated friends who can’t get any play, please let me introduce them to my friends who do not want thugs. I think the thug thing must be a younger woman thing. Cuz women I know in their 40’s and up have NO use for athug. Can’t take em home, can’t take em to work, can’t introduce em to your kids, can’t take em to church, can’t take em to functions (sorority, links, Jr League, professional, etc.), can’t take em to the mall ( might run into your friends or worse your boss), can’t have a conversation, can’t stand their music, the list is endless. To all the brothas on this thread, just cuz you find BW not into you or your friends, doesn’t mean we are not out there, you have not found them.

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