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1. To tide you over… « Truly Outrageous on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:32 pm

   [...] sex over at Racialicious: Race Preference or Race Fetish? Lots of conversation on that post too, mainly because of one section in particular: One of my [...]

2. Black Women and Asian Men « A Birth Project on 25 Aug 2007 at 12:56 pm

   [...] For a conversation about ‘dating in or outside the race’ or ‘race- fetish’ dating – check this conversation over at Racialicous. [...]

3. May the Lord Bless Advertising Software at Faux Real on 12 Feb 2008 at 7:50 pm

   [...] discussing race and racism will include advertisements for Date-An-Asian/China Love personals sites (literally, one of them is called China Love) and DOWNLOAD THE HOTTEST [...]

4. La Alma de Fuego… » Blog Archive » A very long winding tangly post about Toby and sexual healing. on 20 Oct 2008 at 6:54 pm

   [...] Which is why, I guess, it kind of surprised me to read how outraged/grossed out people were over the black man in this post saying that he asked white partners to tie him up, beat him and call… [...]

Comments

1. gandalf mantooth wrote:

   Simple answer. Without the artificial separations created by racism, we wouldn’t be asking these kinds of questions. If the pseudo-science of race wasn’t loaded with social stratifications, would there be a concern for what phenotype you find physically attractive?

   OTOH . . .
   What is the last, unattainable item for the Western otaku but the “possession” of the Japanese mate? I did not want to be that guy, frankly. I didn’t want my interest in Japanese cinema to be “explained” by a mate. In the end, resistance was futile– and really just a matter of fate rather than me hunting the final piece of the collection.

   I think that anyone who sets out on a mission to “get an ______ bf/gf/other” may not have the purest intentions. Yet, others need not sit in judgement. We don’t know the motivations of two people to get together, and the often inevitable investigations into what brings two people together (that goes beyond small talk or curiosity) is tacky. IR couples have to answer the “how did you meet” thing more often than others, as if it required some kind of special David Blaine level magicianship to happen.

   Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 10:49 am ¶

2. Sewere wrote:

   Great writing on a very controversial topic Latoya.

   And further, can you fetishize your own race?

   Yes and the basis of which essentializes/attributes certain characteristics as solely based on race. I’ve had African-American women tell me how dark my skin is and then go ahead to proclaim how I’m really “African”. Logically, I can come up with a reason as to why it might be alright, but realistically it leaves me feeling somewhat perturbed. You can only imagine the gory details of physically intimate situations. And I’m sure I’m not the only Nigerian who’s been in that situation (ahem, Merq, care to share?).

   Oh and I should warn you that you’ve opened the floodgates and should expect this post grow to a hundred over the weekend.

   Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 10:54 am ¶

3. Wendi Muse wrote:

   i admit to ignorance: I haven’t read the entire article yet (work is crazy right now), but I did see sewere’s comment and wanted to add:

   i say wholeheartedly “yes, you can fetishize within your own ethnic/racial group.”

   my mother, who is pasty white/high yellow whatever you want to call it, was told from birth that dark skinned people were bad. from her teen years, she has always dated men who are darker than she is. Very dark, in fact, and notes that she is more attracted to men that are the darkest brown/shade of black. My father, come to think of it, was the only acception (he’s a tiny bit darker than I am). her parents eventually got over their colorism (i think birthing two dark children put an end to that finally), and they did not object to her dark-skinned mates, but i their initial bad words on dark brown folk greatly influenced her dating choices.

   she also has a bit of a reverse color complex, wishing she had darker skin and identifying more with dark skinned black people than lighter ones (besides her family members)…

   every now and then (back to fetishizing), she makes comments like “i like dark men, like african-dark, you know” and she seems to find them more attractive simply because of their skin color. i have several other light-skinned female relatives who say similar things…so it’s def. happens internally.

   i have also been fetishized quite a bit by people whom i dated who happened to be of the same racial/ethnic background, but they were more-or-less reinforcing stereotypes already held in the community, i.e. praising me for having “good hair” or saying my mom was so pretty and light…that stuff drove me nuts, and even though i was in high school at the time, i knew it was f’d up enough for me to end the relationship riiiiight there.

   Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 11:09 am ¶

4. Luke Pharma wrote:

   Something to consider:

   The continuum I’ve experienced so far in life personally and through/from others runs something as follows:

   preference–fetish–obsession– bias–prejudice

   It has everything to do with knowing yourself and your desires enough to give voice to them first, and whether and how you choose to act upon them as they manifest themselves in the real world. It’s one thing to be motivated or driven by your desires, another to be a slave to them or a victim to your impulses.

   Objectifying people to or appreciating for one trait *only*– “bad” because you’re working overtime to make another the means for your gratification, justifying the “rightness” of your aims in the process.

   It is a natural, healthy, biological trait to exhibit curiosity in others, even to be attracted to it.

   Suppressing that desire is wrong, by fixating on it to the point of missing other traits (especially warning signs), or falling into a “comfort pattern” by confusing the trait for an actual quality isn’t unlike mistaking “sex” for “love”.

   People need to associate what they do with who they are, and in the process everything ultimately reinforces itself.

   All it takes is the first person with a bad experience to break that stereotype they’ve formed through the fetish, then they now hate the entire group [vice versa of course: "all you need is sex with a (blank) to change your mind"]

   I’m wondering how many “objects of cross-racial desire” aren’t actually aware of what they doing, and if they aren’t playing up/into their racial personas at the expense of their personhood more purposefully…

   Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 11:19 am ¶

5. atlasien wrote:

   In my opinion I don’t think it’s that productive to go into fetish versus preference in terms of interior psychology. I think it’s more useful to think about the person manifests their preference.

   I’ve thought about this a lot specifically in terms of Asiaphiles… the most reprehensible characteristic of white Asiaphiles is to believe that their preference entitles them to sex with Asian women. When they say “I like Asian women” it’s not neutral statement by any means. It’s spoken in a context where it equals “I am a superior being, giving you the inferior non-white being a compliment, and you better show your appreciation of my superior taste.” It’s actually an aggressive insult.

   When I was single I got this a lot. In some cases where I’ve politely but logically tried to challenge the “I like Asian women” statement and point out why it’s rude, the person has always responded with something like “why can’t you just take a compliment?” It makes the aggressive intent behind the statement obvious. Instead I started immediately breaking eye contact and walking away from them instead, which is the normal way (besides physical retaliation) one would respond to a really rude comment of a personal nature.

   Women are generally (but not always) better behaved when it comes to fetishes and preferences. Could you imagine a woman walking up to a man and saying “you have a really hot body” and then expecting the man to be grateful for the compliment… so grateful that he’s obligated to sleep with her?

   I don’t think it’s my business whether someone has an Asian preference, a BDSM preference, straight or gay or whatever. Maybe they have the purest of psychological underpinnings for their preference, maybe the most evil. I don’t want to judge what people’s private sexual urges are or what they do in a bedroom with other consenting adults. But when they use that preference to demean me in a social situation, in public, or pollute the internet with disgusting Asian mail-order bride spam, that’s when it turns into everyone’s business.

   Using the “how do you act it out” criteria for Asiaphiles I’ve noticed there are white Asiaphiles (the majority of course), black Asiaphiles, all flavors… there are even a few very rare and very weird Asian Asiaphiles.

   Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 11:32 am ¶

6. Fiqah wrote:

   Maybe I’m alone here, but the “Toby” thing is skeeving me out. I know desire is EXTREMELY complex and all, and I do try to be open-minded, but I don’t think I’m ready for BDSM featuring race-based humiliation. Was he gonna say his name was Kunta Kinte until she was done? Lord.

   Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 11:46 am ¶

7. Wendi Muse wrote:

   ok lol finally read the article.
   as always, good job, latoya! the best way to do this is a (drumroll please), list:

   1. i don’t think you have a fetish. it’s common to find people to whom you are frequently exposed (especially if they happen to be movie/pop stars, who usually are attractive) attractive. it just so happens that the films/movies you’re watching feature koreans as stars. fine. hot is hot is hot, and people who study beauty often remark that what we find attractive is based on a grid that boils down to facial symmetry and it crosses racial boundaries. i think that exposure only supports this theory. SO if we were more exposed to asian males with awesome facial symmetry in the american media, others might find themselves sharing your love of apia stars. BUT as we all know, there aren’t that many APIA men on american tv, especially not in roles where they are the attractive lead. maybe when that changes, so will how attractive such men are viewed in our society on a whole.

   2. the toby bit freaks me out too, but doesn’t come as a surprise. i mean to each his/her own, but that type of fantasy just ain’t my thing. funny enough, while researching for my Craigslist personals article about this, I came across quite a few posts looking for people to help them live out similar fantasies, and unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, most of them were far too graphic for me to post here on racialicious. but again, no judgment, it’s just not for me. i get exoticized/fetishized/discriminated against enough, no need for me to bring it into my bedroom.

   3. re: the “i like [insert racial group] men/women,” i am annoyed by that as well, mainly because it clearly involves a) thinking of them as the same (by not differentiating the difference between them) and b) b/c it employs stereotypes as a follow up justification. ex: “i love asian girls…” “really, why?” “well you know, they are so smart. they are smaller/petite and don’t cause a lot of drama” etc. it sometimes also involves combining a positive stereotype about one group with a negative one of another. an ex boyfriend once said to me (he is also on my EX EX EX list) “i date black, mixed, or hispanic girls because asian girls are just too childish/needy.” he is asian-american. hearing that sparked a huge argument (i mean he’s dating me…he knew better than to say that) b/c it not only meant that he was stereotyping black/mixed/hispanic women, but was also pitting them against asian women in the stereotype wars going on in his head. not cool.

   i think there is a better way to say things like this… for example, i tend to be attracted to men and women with darker features (dark hair, dark eyes, and usually medium to dark skin (relative to their racial group, of course), and i am not sure WHY, but you would never hear me saying something like “man, i just LOVE asian/latino/black/middle eastern/tan white people!”… it’s just an issue of having manners + recognizing that race does not necessarily correlate to behavior or even looks necessarily… and not limiting your options (as i am also attracted to people who don’t fit within my normal pattern of attraction at all)…

   Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 12:10 pm ¶

8. Winn wrote:

   Fiqah,

   You are not alone. I’m a little creeped out too. Little shocks me or really tips me over into judgment mode regarding sexual proclivities unless one of the parties is either unwilling or unable to give consent. And our desires and interior fantasy lives are vastly complex, messy, disturbing and entirely our own. That said, I submit that there are some unanswered internal questions for someone with such a fantasy. This is not just about surrender and loss of control as in other aspects of BDSM which do not include such racial elements. Not trying to judge Latoya’s friend; just suggesting he might want to examine the derivation and implications of those particular fantasies a little more deeply.

   Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 1:17 pm ¶

9. Fiqah wrote:

   You know, I’ve been trying to get the Toby thang out of my head for hours, and everytime I’m close, some other smartass remark pops into my head, like “A good safe word for that encounter would have been emancipation.” My apologies to fellow posters for my lack of sensitivity, but this one has disturbed me on so very many levels.

   Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 1:36 pm ¶

10. Anonymous wrote:

    Hmm,
    Latoya I wouldn’t say you have a race “fetish”. After reading your article, I agree with you that many people do seem to “fetishize” their own race & the most obvious, other races that they are not part of. I have plenty of girlfriends like you who dig the Asian boys. If anything, that’s a good thing.

    As for the Toby thing, it is in a way difficult for me to respond because a close friend of mine (I’m from the Caribbean) allowed a white man she had been seeing for a few yrs to pretend that he was “raping” her while they indulged in sexual intercourse. This didn’t break up anything & I’m not going to say she had some racial/sexual hangups because it’s far too complicated for that. Ah yes, sexual fantasies can be misconstrued so I’m not going to dig my nose into other people’s business.

    I’ll come back when I have more to respond to

    Cheers everyone!

    Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 2:24 pm ¶

11. imdeep wrote:

    Fiqah: I hear you… *but* in a world and society where I seen some kink become the judgements and the judgements become the kink, don’t know…

    But we don’t know the dude. So why the assumptions and doubts– boy wants what he wants, and sometimes things aren’t so complicated. Toby will find someone to satisfy his bent as long as he’s upfront about it and clear about what it might fetch him (i’d fear for his safety personally).

    He could probably find a partner to compromise and not reject what he’s asking out of hand, as loopy and uncomfortable as it will make some, but he better expect to reciprocate by accomodate their needs too.

    Any partner of his could be repelled by the request, but it would be more interesting to actually note *why* they do it. Everybody’s got a “mess” inside ‘em, so for someone to label another’s “shocking” is too easy.

    If they say “no” because they’d be afraid of getting off on the sex+violence, racist attitudes, or what-not within themselves, well now, that’s something indeed…

    Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 2:26 pm ¶

12. FrancesM wrote:

    I’m multiracial. So how exactly would I date “outside” my race?

    Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 3:38 pm ¶

13. gatamala wrote:

    All it takes is the first person with a bad experience to break that stereotype they’ve formed through the fetish, then they now hate the entire group [vice versa of course: “all you need is sex with a (blank) to change your mind”] goooood point

    Could you imagine a woman walking up to a man and saying “you have a really hot body” and then expecting the man to be grateful for the compliment… so grateful that he’s obligated to sleep with her?

    I’ll get back to you on this

    Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 4:02 pm ¶

14. gatamala wrote:

    You know, I’ve been trying to get the Toby thang out of my head for hours, and everytime I’m close, some other smartass remark pops into my head, like “A good safe word for that encounter would have been emancipation.” My apologies to fellow posters for my lack of sensitivity, but this one has disturbed me on so very many levels.

    or “me want free”

    Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 4:04 pm ¶

15. mora wrote:

    On Toby eew! Very well written Latoya, you have become my favorite Racialicious Correspondent! This reminds me of when I was talking to my so called “friends” I told them I would never date I guy with a lower GPA than I had and he had to be intelligent and respect my family and culture(I very sensitive about that stuff ). my so called best friend said “You will only find avian and white boys that will do that.” And implyed I should find I Mexican boy to date. I guess she thinks Non Asian and white boys cannot respect my family and have high GPA. and implied I should date only with in my race and non Asian/white boys have high GPAS and are smart and respectful. She tried to set me up and discourage me have having high standard. I never said I would not date latino or black guys. sigh I always been attract to vampires and admit taste in men have that same traits as a vampire tall, pale ,sucking blood, sleeping in coffins (heh jokeing) But I noticed I remember reading somewhere children people are still a child, at a certain age they will form a certain ideal for a mate. When they are adults they will keep looking for their types. As for feisih I not sure, often we have traits that people around us have and our peers tend to label a fetish when it is not and label something that is. Latoya, I don;’t think you have a fetish , when I think of racaliy fetish of often believe that there is something that can oppress both parties in a relationship. And I have a question what about other fetishes? Is having corset fetish is as bad as a being Asiaphile?

    Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 5:57 pm ¶

16. mora wrote:

    Let me apologize for comparing from having corset fetish is as bad as a being Asiaphile.(I was being a jerk to say the least and way outta line) I way a. I guess what I mean is when do you draw the line I mean from preference to fetishs to obsessions? I locking my self in the closet from typing anything dumb.

    Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 7:23 pm ¶

17. LayLowLaw wrote:

    Much I could say, but three articles capture my roving thoughts much better:

    (1) Daisy Hernández “Sex and Race Play” 12/6/04
    (Colorlines via AlterNet)
    http://www.alternet.org/story/20656

    (2) Vickie Chang “Yellow Fever” 11/8/06
    (Village Voice)
    http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0646,chang,74988,2.html

    (3) Dan Savage “Cuckolding Confusion” 1/15/07
    (”The Stranger” Blog)
    http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/01/cuckolding_confusion

    Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 8:10 pm ¶

18. michelle wrote:

    Great article LaToya!

    I read somewhere that the largest sexual organ we have as human beings is the brain. It would stand to reason that our sexual desires/wants are hardwired at very early ages, sitting there dormant (or not so dormant) waiting for the right cocktails of hormones to fuel us into sexual maturity. Theorectically, those desires shift and change, but are basically a part of us for a long time. I am not talking about looking for a “mate”, I am talking simply about what turns us on. Now, if that is a basic human template for sexually, when you insert that template in the racially charged world that we live in, then you get a potent recipe for, well, where we find ourselves today. I mean, what are knights rescuing damsels in distress but the sexual fantasy of a some bored, sexually frustrated ladies in waiting (literally, waiting)? So, does the Toby thing in that context seem odd? In that context it seems to make a great deal of sense.

    It seems to me that there are two issues on the table. One issue seems to be about sex and fetishes. That issue is complicated and at times, funny, but overall a very interesting intellectual arguement. And yes, fetishes can be creepy when people cross the line into the personal space of someone who is not into being fetishized.

    The other issue on the table seems to be the age old topic of beauty and standards of beauty. In that sense, an individual’s preferences can be seen as an attempt to reverse racism. LaToya, your mom could have been single handedly trying to undo years of self hatred in the Black community, or maybe she never wanted to be one of the people who perpetuated that hatred. Her preference (I would not classify it as a sexual fetish given what you told us) is now political action. However, in this context, the sexual fantasy of being beaten like a slave becomes rather disturbing. Does that fantasy speak to a deeply held belief that perhaps he is worthless and can only be validated by the love (or beating) of a White woman?

    Most importantly, my concern is that these pereferences can make impressionable young men and women feel ugly or sexually undesirable. What about the Asian girl who isn’t petite (there are MANY out there) and who doesn’t have have small facial features? Does she now feel invalidated by people who don’t see her as attractive because she doesn’t look like what an Asian woman “should” look like? What about the darker skinned Black woman who is ignored by men of her own color because they prefer light-skinned women or white women? A black man’s preference for light skinned women or white women (or any non-black women) CAN SOMETIMES, NOT ALL THE TIME, become a very dangerous poison in the psyche of SOME Black women. But does that mean he is not allowed to have his preference because it hurts someone else? Probably not.

    Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 10:07 pm ¶

19. Wendi Muse wrote:

    sorry michelle,
    my mama’s the one with the fetish not latoya’s.
    i just wanted to clear that up right away before the peterson family sends me hate mail

    Posted 27 Jul 2007 at 10:51 pm ¶

20. Lisa wrote:

    Good post, interesting issue, and one that just won’t go away. Personally: I’m white, I date mostly Asian men, and I live in Asia – so I constantly am confronted with masses of sleazy Asiaphile white men and must soul search whether I am like them.

    I don’t think I am: I think that fetishizing requires an essentialization of that culture and/or race, and not seeing the trees for the forest, rarely even seeing the forest itself but rather some exoticized ideal.

    For me, my preferences were a two-tiered evolution. First, the right-wing, misogynistic, racist, nonchalant domestic violence, etc family culture I was raised in made me inherently wary of white American men, and it has proven a useful instinct. Moreover, I find most white Americans, unless they have lived abroad extensively, are themselves immigrants or married to one, and/or have shifted subcultures at least once, are so oblivious and take so much for granted that it is nearly impossible for me to relate to them.

    Secondly, in high school and college I dated a variety of races and genders, and found I generally fared the best with Asian men. My experience is that they tend to be more mellow, open, enjoying rather than threatened by strong and complex women, and engaging than other “types” of men. And they’re the hottest, in my opinion. I realize that my biases were probably strongly shaped by the fact that my close male friends growing up were Asian-American, and I have a subconscious assumption that white men=jerks, Asian men=cool, which I constantly battle to switch off. I certainly have met my share of exceptions, too.

    Do I have an Asian fetish? Depends on your definition. Am I racist towards whites? Again, depends on definition, but I believe not because it is culture and attitudes I judge, although I do have my predjudices. We all do, about everything, it is inevitable; the challenge is to not be governed by them.

    I also get my share of the fetishizing, Chinese guys coming up and declaring they like white women. “Well, then you probably won’t like me,” I respond. It is insultingly dehumanizing…but also rather entertaining.

    Posted 28 Jul 2007 at 12:56 am ¶

21. Sewere wrote:

    Gat,

    or “me want free”

    Nah sis, it’s “Give es us FREEEE!!!”

    Here’s a situation that I always thought explained itself pretty clearly. A good friend of mine grew up in Bayview Hunter’s Point neighborhood of San Francisco and for those of you who don’t know, it’s a predominantly African-American neighborhood. The dude and his siblings were children of anti-racist parents and they grew up primarily influenced by African-American folks and thus identify and socialize primarily amongst African-American folks. One of his pet peeves is meeting white folks who always ask him why he “talks/walks/dresses black”. According to him, this is one of the main reasons why he doesn’t have that many white friends. In fact, he says most black folks accept him for who he his and he has mostly dated black women.

    Posted 28 Jul 2007 at 1:27 am ¶

22. Epiphany wrote:

    i love her articles!!!thanks latoya. but i as a black woman all i will ever date is blk men because usually i was scared of being racial fetishized by non- blk men and it never occured to me whether i or my sistah friends could be fetishized bytha brothas.I love me some blk men.( oh that that cat that said he likes WW to beat him and call him toby must be on the plantation )oohhhh lawdy lawd mis’esss!!!

    Posted 28 Jul 2007 at 1:42 am ¶

23. ccch wrote:

    One of my nieces (22yrs, goes to Temple U) who’s also multi-racial (Afro-Caribbean/Indian/caucasian) dates exclusively Asian guys. She’s ALWAYS had a thing for Japanese/Korean pop-stars and that has spilled over into her dating life. I’m planning to take her to Japan along with my son (Japanese comic books fanatic) next summer so she can “get her freak on!”. And why not!?, words such as “fetishising” and the overly analytical thoughts that accompany such only seek to undermine an evolved person’s preference!

    Posted 28 Jul 2007 at 11:39 am ¶

24. JC wrote:

    I’m just so happy to hear Latoya is a con-going Otaku.

    On another note, I’m just shocked that there are actually women with an Asian man fetish. I’m sure plenty of AA men in this country would rather be fetish target than being the sex-less loser they’re now being stereotyped in. In term of sex appeal, being an Asian man in the US of A is the lowest of the low. Even as a fetish, it’s really better than the status quo.

    Posted 28 Jul 2007 at 3:23 pm ¶

25. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    > I’m sure plenty of AA men in this country would rather be fetish target than being the sex-less loser they’re now being stereotyped in. In term of sex appeal, being an Asian man in the US of A is the lowest of the low. Even as a fetish, it’s really better than the status quo.

    I have such a problem with this statement.

    One of the main points I made at last week’s panel on Asian-American activism at MoCA was that we need to ask ourselves where the impulse to protest is coming from.

    (I’m going to use a general “you” in the following paragraphs, not directing this at you in particular, JC.)

    Are you opposed to the Long Duk Dong caricature because as an anti-racist you believe all racist stereotypes are demeaning and dehumanizing? Or are you opposed to it because it is personally inconvenient to you? e.g., makes it harder for you to get laid.

    Are you opposed to the “me love you long time” stereotype because it is racist and sexist? Or are you opposed to it because it personally inconveniences you? e.g., makes every man think you will give it up for “one dollah one dollah!”

    If you’re Asian-American and you are moved to protest an offensive Asian-American stereotype because of your anti-racist beliefs, then you should be just as likely to protest an equally offensive African-American, or Latino, or Arab-American stereotype.

    But I just don’t see a whole lot of that coming out of the Asian-American community (or any other communities, for that matter). Which makes me think that for many people, activism is not truly about anti-racism or anti-sexism, but more about consolidating their own power base in society.

    Same with this situation of racial fetishes. I see so many Asian-American men online who are outraged about the way Asian-American women are exoticized and fetishized in popular media. But when a web site surfaces that objectifies Asian men in the same way, or if a white woman admits to fetishizing Asian men, those same Asian-American men will take that as an opportunity to celebrate.

    You can’t have it both ways. If you believe that fetishizing someone on the basis of their race is a form of oppression, you can’t be willing to be fetishized because you think it will be personally convenient to you in some way (get you laid, basically).

    We shouldn’t be willing to swap one set of stereotypes (asexual Asian eunuch) for another set (sexual lothario/predator).

    One person at the MoCA panel suggested that Asian-American men who are bothered by the small penis stereotype should go out to the clubs and “hit on everything that moves.”

    So it’s ok to try and alleviate the oppression you personally experience (racist stereotypes about Asian penises) by going out and oppressing another group (sexually harrassing women)?

    I just don’t buy that, sorry.

    Posted 28 Jul 2007 at 4:09 pm ¶

26. lunanoire wrote:

    This could be stating the obvious, but what about language and culture (food, religion, customs, etc.)? Many people have same-race preferences because there is less to explain regarding culture or language. As a person of color, I agree that most Caucasians in the US are oblivious to the different world many people of color in the US live in. I am not against IR but I am for some degree of cultural preservation. The odds of someone from one linguistic background speaking that language is higher than a person from 6 linguistic backgrounds speaking all 6 languages.

    Posted 28 Jul 2007 at 8:37 pm ¶

27. imdeep wrote:

    Carmen: A simple “YES”. It bothers me and I make it known as often as possible. One simple principle: An object of desire that brings harm upon itself as a means to your end is your object, not desirous.

    Lunanoire and Epiphany and Lisa: I can respect where you’re coming from, been there as well on both sides, but no longer there. I truly believe a “preference” stands in for an explanation dressed in a rationalization’s skin to justify a bias, pure and simple. Think for a sec and flip your statement around, and attest that merely continuing to assign “Caucasian as codeword” assumes both too much and too little in terms of who knows what about whom– because you still left out *ethnic*, which has it’s own bent. You can speak the same language, have experiences with a “type” that represents nothing more than what you encountered under a broad label at best. no matter how much they might resemble anyone else like them within a certain degree of similarity along other factors.

    Mora: Don’t apologize, I hear you!

    Atlasien: It’s happened to me on several occasions, strikingly with African-American (not African) and certain demographics of American White women (it depends a lot on geography, peers, age, class,etc.–but never “race” alone) who have used every euphemism in the book for wanting to have sex in the name of “cultural preservation” and “cultural experimentation” respectively. That’s why, as a guy, the phrase takes on a chillingly kinky connotation to me whenever I hear it, but women have been upfront about their preference(s) and the “creative” ways they’d like to express it. I done seen and played in some freaky stuff, sure… BUT

    When it comes to my body or my heart, I don’t mind explaining a thing, so long as the questions are sincere, the asker genuine in their motivations to learn, and that same courtesy is extended to me to pose whatever comes to mind. That’s “communication”– extending trust, as much as any organ, into any activity. It’s what turns getting rocks off into something more for all parties involved. It’s time for groups to come up from their cultural valleys, climb down from their mountains of isolation, and make love in them hills as they damn well please..

    Posted 29 Jul 2007 at 12:49 am ¶

28. merq wrote:

    Thank you, Sewere, for correcting the Amistad misquote.

    If you didn’t, I would’ve.

    Posted 29 Jul 2007 at 8:11 am ¶

29. michelle wrote:

    Has anybody ever had a conversation with a Black American woman who has said some version of the following “I want to be a White man (Chinese man, Spanish man) because I want my baby to have pretty hair and light skin”? Does the socioeconomic and/or educational level make a difference in how we view that statement? Is it just a preference for what a baby should look like and what constitutes “desirable” features? Does this type of conversation happen amognst other “ethnic” groups?

    Posted 29 Jul 2007 at 7:39 pm ¶

30. Jay wrote:

    the most reprehensible characteristic of white Asiaphiles is to believe that their preference entitles them to sex with Asian women.

    Asiaphilia is not a solely male characteristic (it is possible for women Asiaphiles to exist) but in this case it’s not only racism that’s driving this, sexism is involved as well. Entitlement to sex is a very strong component of sexist behaviour.

    Latoya, in this case, I think Wendi is correct – you’re reacting to the media icons you find attractive. It’s possible to fetishize your own race, even without resorting to Asian Japanophiles or the Japanese women who swoon over Ko-drama guys (to name some examples). I mean, there are people who do hold strong stereotypes of their own race because that’s what their environment instills in them.

    I also agree with Carmen here – those “positive” stereotypes are just as bad as the “negative” stereotypes, make no mistakes. An “intelligent” stereotype has the “nerd” stigma attached to it just as the “virile” stereotype has the “predator” stigma attached to it. There’s no such thing as a “good” stereotype, and stereotypes can affect all people (in different ways), so it’s important to defend against all of them. I am pessimistic about that in practice, since divide and conquer seems to be a very good strategy.

    Posted 29 Jul 2007 at 11:35 pm ¶

31. gabby wrote:

    Something I guess I never realized until reading through all these comments is that, as a multiracial woman, I have more at stake in these issue than I’d ever thought.

    I basically have no choice but to have “interracial relationships.” Growing up with a dark-skinned mother and a light-skinned father, I didn’t really see my relationships in that light, since it’s just the norm for my family. Also, you know, if I diddle myself it’s basically an interracial relationship.

    Anyway, what I mean is that, while I may not think of my relationships this way, my partner does. All the men I’ve dated or been in relationships with were mono-racial, and to all of them, they were in an interracial relationship. For me, I never expect to date someone who’s “like me”, racially speaking. But it’s likely that at least some of those men did.

    I’m not sure what I think about that yet, but there you go.

    Posted 29 Jul 2007 at 11:36 pm ¶

32. JC wrote:

    Carmen, I hear your argument, and it’s been made many times by a lot of anti-racist advocates such as yourself. I agree with you. However, I’m just staying the raw truth here. Fetish is bad, yes, but it’s still hell a lot better than what’s out there for AA men right now. If you don’t believe me, just go ask a random AA man whom you can be honest with. Frankly, what’s out there deeply hurts the self-esteem of every AA men out there, and it’s a painful topic to talk about. Perhaps black women can sympathize to a point, BUT, there’s still a lot of hot black women in the media today.

    The bottom line is, the status quo is so bad that even attraction based on a fetish is better. It’s just the lessor of two evils, and plenty of AA, if given the choice, would rather be a fetish instead of “Long Duck Dong”.

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 12:09 am ¶

33. jane wrote:

    as a mixed (asian/caucasian) female in china, i’ve just given up on all relationships altogether–or at least while here. i can’t seem to date within my race since i haven’t met anyone else of “my mix” here–if that’s what that means; and as for dating outside of my race, well, the vast majority of people here are, after all, asian, and among foreign circles, the vast majority, apart from non-chinese asians, are white. i’ve tried them all (as if they comprise a sampler platter), and nothing works out: lacking blond hair and blue eyes, i’m not white enough for those looking for a “foreign” girlfriend; lacking noticeable asian features and total fluency in mandarin and having the loathed (by many) ways of a western woman, apparently, i’m not chinese enough for those who seek a chinese girlfriend. and it seems everybody is seeking somebody based on race. (of course i’d have to at this point include myself in this category as well, although i can probably better say which race/s i’m trying to avoid rather than get with. read: all of them.)

    and while the white guys who think they’re the kings of the world because as foreigners they stand out anyway and on top of that get a seeming surplus of attention from females, both foreign and local are irritating, i think the backlash of white women who fetishize chinese men are equally as guilty–case in point, above poster lisa’s uninhibited generalizing of asian guys in her third-to-last paragraph after her claims of soul searching and belief that she doesn’t think she is like the asiaphile males.

    anyway, certainly this is affected by my bitterness and wondering if i’m wasting away my prime dating years in this country where with each passing year i seem to have less and less desire to date anybody here, but i think my feelings are at least partly informed by my straddling-the-racial-fence position.

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 4:23 am ¶

34. Leigh-Anne wrote:

    Hectic post! Little excerpts from this post have been running through my mind all weekend…

    Yes, I also think it is possible to fetishize your own race. Many men have fawned over and praised my European features, while at the same time claiming me as being exactly the same as them! (Go figure… )

    My father was, and still is, obsessed with brown skinned women. He acknowledges it, and views it as harmless… I beg to differ. He sees brown skinned women as his inferior, which is probably why he was content to have me with my brown skinned mother, but not marry my mother. To top it all off, when his son (his white son with his wife, who like them, is also white) wanted to marry an Indian woman because she was pregnant with his child, our father told him, “You can’t do that. She’s black. You sleep with them, you don’t marry them.”

    MY OWN FATHER.

    I sometimes think he thinks his white blood has somehow immunized me from such racism, because he flatly refuses to acknowledge that I am anything other than white. He thinks his magical white man’s blood has “civilized” me…

    It grates on me. I hate it. I have rebelled in every way I know possible to show him that he is wrong, that I am mixed, and proud of having his genes and my mother’s genes…

    Whew, that was rather long winded, of me! Sorry for rambling on like that! Hope I came across coherently…

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 5:01 am ¶

35. Leigh-Anne wrote:

    Sorry for the double post, but something Michelle said resonated.

    As much as my father fetishized my mother’s brown skin, my mother admits she was drawn to my father because their relationship was taboo, and the excitement of an illegal relationship was what initially made him so attractive. What kept the relationship alive after that was the thought of having “pretty” babies who could “pass” and who wouldn’t face the Apartheid stigma of being non-white…

    As much as I revile my father’s actions, I must admit that my mother wasn’t entirely blameless either…

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 5:09 am ¶

36. Heavy D! wrote:

    Not to beat a dead horse, but despite all of the intelligent posts on this page, its still pretty hard for me to get past the the whole “Toby” issue. Even as a black man who can fully appreciate the beauty of white as well as black women, I don’t think that there exists the blue eyed blond that I would ever let call me Toby. Not that I’m one to judge and all, but damn…

    As for people who prefer to date people of their own race at the exclusion of others, I think that’s okay. Most relationships in this country are still
    intra-racial; I think that’s how we are wired, whether genetically, or most likely culturally. Where it gets weird for me is when people date exclusively outside their race. That kind of racial preference worries me because it looks a lot like self hatred, and if you can’t love yourself, then its gonna be real hard to love someone else. And on that same topic, I’ve never heard of a black woman actively seeking out non-black men to father their children, but seeing as how more than a few of us still suffer from that “brown bag” complex, I wouldn’t be surprised.

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 6:47 am ¶

37. Christie wrote:

    I am a white woman and have dated men from most races, but mostly white men. I have never dated a black man, but have met many black men who I would date – I just didn’t happen to get together with them. In fact I am very picky and would reject the majority of men from any race (I suspect many women would say the same).

    Well, around the age of 18, when I moved from Oregon to L.A., I somehow acquired a preference for men with dark hair and dark eyes. I’m not sure why this happened, and I guess it is racist, but I began to hope for children with dark hair and dark eyes, instead of very fair children with light blue eyes and that light blonde hair that makes them look bald for the first year. Again, I’m not sure why this happened, but the closest thing I can think of is that my sisters are both much fairer than I am, with blonde hair (mine is brown), and my blonde mom seemed to favor my blonde sisters. I just thought of this recently, but maybe this subconsciously led me to prefer the appearance of children with darker hair and eyes – ?

    I did not purposely date only men with dark hair and eyes after this, but still prefered them (you know, tall, dark, and handsome), though I did still date some men with fairer coloring. If I had fallen in love with a man with light coloring, I’m sure I would have changed my view of very fair children, and found my own fair children to be very cute. But as it turned out I married an Indian man and my children look Italian or Turkish.

    Is it racist to prefer “tall dark and handsome” men, or to want a child with darker coloring who does not look just like my sisters… ? Unfortunately, I think it is somewhat racist, but it is hard to avoid having preferences. It is a problem.

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 6:48 am ¶

38. gatamala wrote:

    sew/merq

    soon as I typed it I noticed my goof!!

    

    either way, it’s pretty …..well, we’re all into something..

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 7:51 am ¶

39. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    > Also, you know, if I diddle myself it’s basically an interracial relationship.

    ROFL!

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 8:00 am ¶

40. Stef wrote:

    Christie, I can relate to the liking dark hair thing. I never was attracted to just one racial group at the exclusion of other races. However, somewhere along the way during my adolescence, I realized that the people I was attracted to generally were never blonde, and usually had darker hair. A few of my high school crushes were on Asian or hapa guys. Maybe their black hair had something to do with why I crushed on them, as that was the hair look I found most appealing. Or maybe they made me love black hair (chicken or egg?)! I don’t really think I was attracted to anything I was ascribing to them based on their Asian-ness. It was just a matter of that good ol’ combination of looks and personality. They were cool, and they were hot!

    I often hear on this website Asian guys saying how they are not perceived as sexy, and I think of those guys from high school…I’m sure that none of them knew how I felt because I was shy, more of a worship-from-a-distance gal. So, if they are thinking nobody thought they were sexy, they’re wrong!

    But, I liked green eyes the best, if I have to choose a favorite color (which I really don’t have to). Who knows what shaped those phenotype preferences? I myself had dark blonde hair as a kid that gradually darkened to a lighter brown, and I’ve got greenish eyes. Does that have something to do with it? Do I ascribe personality traits to different looks (i.e. blondes are boring, and dark features are cool)? I can’t say for sure I know the answers, but it is interesting to think about.

    I guess I have (or had?) a bias, but I hope it isn’t a fetish. The thing about these preferences is that they were mostly just sort of abstract and never really guided who I was willing to take an interest in. Perhaps a fetishist has more rigid standards than my own that would never be compromised.
    If I’d fallen in love with a blonde-haired, brown-eyed guy, I wouldn’t have let that stand in my way that he didn’t have green eyes and dark hair. Actually, my husband really didn’t fit my slight bias to that visual “type” either, although I certainly do find him visually appealing. I did as soon as I met him, although he didn’t fit the mould of what I normally would have gone after. So it was a surprising and unexpected attraction, but a strong one. And I didn’t dismiss it, but allowed it to lead me where it may. And great thing I did!

    SO, I guess it’s OK to have visual preferences (I imagine we all must to some degree), but I can’t imagine shutting out entire races of people as impossible love matches if they don’t completely correspond to your preferences, because… you never know.

    What I really can’t stand (and this is a touchy subject for me as being in an IR), is that attitude of, “I love Asian girls” or “I love black guys” that I hear from time to time. Making blanket statements about a whole group of people like that, it’s usually based on some sort of stereotype. And it leads to crap like, “Once you go black, you never go back” or “brown sugar” or whatever.

    (shudder)

    Like the person’s race is the most important thing about them. I hate the idea that people may think I am with my husband BECAUSE he is black, or he with me BECAUSE I am white. It really minimizes our entire relationship and reduces it to that fetish way of thinking. I hate that, but I’m becoming more aware that people may assume that about us, and it’s just something I’ve got to deal with, I guess.

    Anyway, great post, Latoya, as usual!

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 1:28 pm ¶

41. Rachel/ weigooksaram wrote:

    Thanks for the link, Latoya. Great essay, thought-provoking comment dialogue. I’ve thought about this question a lot. What constitutes a fetish? How is a fetish different from a preference?

    I definitely have a preference for dark hair and skin, but since my husband is the only Asian man I dated, I don’t think I’m a fetishist. I have known a few female Asiaphiles, though.

    However, I don’t think interracial dating can ever be really free of the underlying biases and assumptions and stereotypes. We live in a racist world, and whether we intend to or not, we internalize what we see in the media and larger culture.

    For the multiracial commenters, I often think about this as it relates to my daughter. No matter whom she dates, she will be in an interracial relationship. .

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 5:58 pm ¶

42. Epiphany wrote:

    Well as a sistah i am not dissing anyone’s preference but we black women always get the ” fuzzy end of the lollipop” because of the beauty standards of lily white complexions and facial features that stll exist inside and outside of the black community. Or the stereotypes that black women are always angry, ghetto ,loud,nappy headed hoes( thanks don anus!!!!!) hypersexual and we all screw like animals etc . So i say i strictly prefer brothas because i never really felt non black men were as sexy( or about the stereotype that blk men have big penises , which most i do have) and other factors i just couldn’t see myself dating men who aren’t of my race. not dissing of you all , just my opinion.

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 7:09 pm ¶

43. alessandra wrote:

    “Everybody’s got a “mess” inside ‘em, so for someone to label another’s “shocking” is too easy.”

    Why is everyone treading so carefully, and couching their criticisms of this guy in such delicate, hand-wringing language?

    Who cares how complex sexuality is? As complex as anything can be made out to be, there’s a very short road to the truth and that is the guy is messed up. And, yes, he is more messed up than most folks. The way people are posting on this thread almost suggests that it is de rigeur for black men to go around asking for white women to whip them and call them slave names in bed!

    Shockingly, some people *are* more messed up than others. That’s why we have facilities such as prisons, rehabilitation centers and mental hospitals in this country. Not rocket science. . .

    This guy is an chilling, sickening testament to the legacy of white oppression on black people to this day. I think we need to acknowledge the ripple-effect of these extreme manfestations of racial inferiority complex has on the wider community. And the serious pathologies that lie beneath it. Let’s face it, someone who is willing to request that type of treatment, then is bold, ignorant and shameless enough not to see that there is anything wrong with it, has got to be showing their crazy in other ways, too.

    OP, I don’t know how you can be friends with such a person. Sheesh, people should have standards.

    And to everyone else-ease up on the apologism and moral ambivalence- when it comes to a system as flawed and oppressive as race, there’s gonna be a lot of right and wrong.

    Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 10:35 pm ¶

44. michelle wrote:

    So, was the media facisnation with Marilyn Monroe simply fetishizing her as a White woman? The title of one of her movies was “Gentlemen Prefer Blondes” and of course she was refered to as the blonde bombshell, correct? So, is the white media that whorshiped her simply fetishizing her whiteness/blondness?

    I am inclined to agree with JC. I would rather be fetishized than ignored. I have been rendered invisible at different points in my life and I think, I am not positive, but I think it is worse than being seen as a commodity or even oddity. And that, of course, is a personal preference.

    I was head over heels in love with a boy named Rajesh when I was in elementary school. To be fair, I was head over heels in love with many boys when I was in elementary, but I dreamed of marrying Rajesh and having really smart kids. Yes, he was Indian (although he claimed to be some mixture of something, I didn’t pay attention to that) and he really was smart, for real. We were on the Math Olympiad together. But to Rajesh, the love of my life, I was invisible. It sucked.

    To another point, most women I know want only the best for their children, and they want them to have a better life than they had. There are many women who are disenfranchised because of the color of their skin who believe that the only hope they have is to have children who won’t have the handicap of being “colored” “black” or “brown”. Many women pick fathers for their children who will give those children more “favorable” physical characteristics. Isn’t that just simple darwinism at play? Leigh-Anne, I really can’t blame your mother for wanting a better life for her children. The question is, did you have a better life than her, and/or other’s in your peer group that didn’t have the stigma of blackness?

    Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 1:33 am ¶

45. Wendi Muse wrote:

    michelle,

    being fetishized is a form of making you invisible, in a sense. it involves the rendering of a person into a mere object, meaning that you are seen as a representative of something that your partnet -needs- in order to find you attractive, and technically, to get off, as that is what a real fetish involves.

    if you are only found attractive and seen as a potential mate SOLELY BECAUSE of your race, it means that your personality, intelligence, and even general appearance is disregarded as a result of meeting that person’s one criterion of race.

    for example, statements like “black girls are hot” requires a sweeping generalization of black women in that person’s head. it’s a totally different statement from “i tend to be attracted to black women” b/c one makes black women all the same, whereas the other is an indirect assertion of one having a preference, but not rendering such women as objects to satisfy a fetish.

    i’d rather be considered awesome as a whole, not because i was the “right color” for that person to reflect on behavioral and appearance-based stereotypes he/she holds of my group. it’s like someone receiving a promotion simply because he/she is attractive. sure, they got a promotion, but at the end of the day, it minimizes their sense of merit and makes one contemplate their own worth…

    Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 5:31 am ¶

46. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Alessandra –

    How do you feel justified making that kind of comment about a 10 year friendship, based on one comment about one particular fetish one of my friends happens to have?

    That is one miniscule aspect of his overall personality – and I find it curious, but not repulsive.

    You (and other posters) are entitled to feel as skeeved out as you want to about my friends fetish.

    However, you have SERIOUSLY overstepped your bounds by passing a judgement on a person you do not know.

    When I share examples like this, they are to illustrate a point – not bring judgement on a person.

    You can feel free to debate the merits/motives behind the ACT described – but I cannot believe you would have the audacity to not only judge my friend’s character – which is unknown to you – but also one of the friendships I hold most dear.

    Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 8:27 am ¶

47. FrancesM wrote:

    Alessandra, Latoya, et al-

    As we all know most things in life are not “black” or “white” there is so much to the human experience that cannot simply be understood by even the most adept scholars of logic/psychology/anthropology/sociology.

    That being said we humans are given the ability to judge for a reason. To discern what may be good, bad, indifferent or whatever else we can or can’t comprehend. In that vein is makes sense in terms of racism to be shocked by a Black man wanting to be beaten and called a slave. It deserves a reaction because it’s a very strong example of externalized racism made quite personal. It’s an act that seems sad & desperate & quite frankly bad for our sister/brotherhood as a whole.

    If a gay man asked to be tied to a fence, called faggot & beaten I think it would be fair to think this man was not well. That he had some very serious issues to work through.

    However that one desire as sad as it may be to many of us does not make the desire in & of itself wrong or the person as a whole messed up. Even the most angry racists can change. Desire if not acted upon really only harms the individual. Desire becomes a problem when it is acted upon & effects others in ways that are negative. For example if a white man desires Black women based on stereotypes that’s one thing, but if he expects all Black women to be a certain way & is rude when they eventually are not that is something else.

    One’s desire may not be so great but as long as I don’t have to deal with it on a personal level it’s not really my business. If it were my friend or partner however I’d be concerned about the issue, take care of my own sanity and love the person to the best of my ability. If it were some dude/ette trying to get me to beat them based on their race I’d be utterly mortified but remember the person has an issue & try to put such an experience behind me.

    That’s my humble 2 cents.
    ~F

    Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 2:09 pm ¶

48. Luke Pharma wrote:

    FrancesM: Well put. I only add that judgement turns on trust in others (but comes out as doubt in other’s intentions and motives), and it will also always seem questionable to someone else, no matter how sound it actually is– especially in matters of intimacy.

    LayLowLaw: Thank you for sharing those interesting articles! The Village Voice was a stunner, but the Alternet piece made my jaw drop for the statements and contradictory opinions among those BDSM people of color, wow… I don’t know what to make of the whole “race play” scene, but that last page really chilled me most.

    It’s one thing when you’re doing it, another when you’re watching it. But then to have problems with this, but less “gender domination”– all while segregating, purposefully seeking, or ignoring partners along color lines– wow is all I can say…

    But they reinforce the point about individual choice, too, and knowing the line between fantasy and reality. If you can distinguish between, and function well in, both then heck, that just might make you better prepared than many others, no?

    Posted 31 Jul 2007 at 8:06 pm ¶

49. MsRebecca wrote:

    Hmm.. being an African american, transracial adoptee adopted into an all white family and being raised in an entirely white city I do have a fetish, for attractive, honest men with a personality to boot.. I think growing up where I did made me more open-minded but in addition not oblivious to the racial obstacles..

    Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 12:25 am ¶

50. michelle wrote:

    Wendi,

    I understand your points and I think they are extremely valid and I appreciate your response.

    I know what a fetish is, I have a very complete understanding of the defintion of the word. Furthermore, I know what it feels like to be fetishized. I also know what it feels like to be exoticized. I think there is a fine line between the two, but there is a difference. Perhaps there will be a discussion about that as well.

    I have to disagree with you and say that to really be invisible and to be fetishized are two completely different things. Both are wrong, both feel horribly wrong and of course I would prefer to be seen as my wonderfully flawed whole self rather than those two choices.

    But, to be completely invisible and to have no value what so ever at all is, to me, the worst position for one to occupy. I understand that intellectually there really is no difference between the two but in practice I think the experience of the two ways of being treated are very different. Basically, I would rather get a job because I was attractive, than to be REJECTED for a job because I was unattractive. Do you honestly think that both situations would leave you feeling equally worthless, or questioning your own self worth?

    Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 12:46 am ¶

51. Wendi Muse wrote:

    hey michelle,

    gotcha, totally. it’s one of those things that look equal on paper, but when applied has clearly different effects on different people. i am the type of person who tends to think and think and think until my thoughts become overwhelming, for me, being fetishized vs. being invisible end up being the same thing, sometimes the invisibility being the better option (as i have experienced both) and vice versa.

    this reminds me of the many discussions we have here about “positive” vs. “negative” stereotypes (even though they are, arguably, both quite negative). sure, if i had to choose at gunpoint whether or not i wanted to be stereotyped positively or negatively, i’d choose positive, but again, having experienced both (the sbw stereotype comes to mind here as a “positive” one that gets on my nerves), i am not satisfied with either option in the least.

    i suppose it’s a matter of preference. do you want to start on the top and bear the pressure of remaining there but never being considered *quite* equal or do you want to start at the bottom and prove you can work to get to the top, defying expectation but risking tokenism? do you prefer to be fetishized and objectified based on one thing, but your value discounted or do you prefer to be invisible but not have to worry about the constant surveillance of your appearance or someone being interested you only because you satisfy a stereotype? these are rhetorical questions, of course, but i think questions we often ask ourselves when negotiating the role of race, gender, and a whole ton of other things in our society.

    it’s really a shitty catch 22.

    Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 5:13 am ¶

52. Leigh-Anne wrote:

    Michelle, to a certain extent, yes, I did. But I also struggled with self hatred (Why isn’t my hair as dark and curly as my mom’s? Why am I so light? Why do I get teased about glowing in the dark?) It was quite hectic at one stage, but I’m getting over it now…

    Being perceived as white helped me fit in though. I attended a snooty, all white girls school, and despite occasional taunts (zebra, halfbreed, halfnaai, the usual) when people saw who my mother is, I generally blended in…

    It’s weird though, because I often feel like I was robbed of my mother’s cultural identity…

    But I’m getting over it.

    Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 5:40 am ¶

53. Ash wrote:

    I think you can def fetishize “your own race”. I think it’s different b/c it’s less easy to spot, but I think it can be just as twisted or misinformed as any other fetish. We’re all susceptible to stereotypes, even the ones about ourselves.

    Are YOU fetishizing asian guys/asian culture is a trickier question. I think only the individual can know why he or she enjoys a particular culture’s stuff. I also think people are often confused about their reasons when it comes to these things. On purely physical level though, hotness is hotness, right? Those boys looked like hotties, asian or not.

    Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 3:02 pm ¶

54. michelle wrote:

    Leigh-Anne…

    Thanks for your honesty. I am glad that you are finding a way to get past your issues. I am finding that I am not getting past my issues, rather, I am learning to live with them and make them a part of the fabric of who I am, as opposed to crippling thoughts that make me immobile with self doubt. I applaud you for your growth. I have struggled with those issues for years and it ain’t easy!

    Which speaks to the issue that Wendi and I were talking about and you know what, I really don’t know which is better, Wendi. I think that you put it well when you called it a shitty catch 22. Your post made me think over the times in my life when I have been in both sucky positions and yeah, they both sucked!

    Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 3:45 pm ¶

55. hoo_boy wrote:

    “Appreciation”. That’s the missing word I don’t hear/see anywhere in all the above that separates the degree of a fetish from all else for me.

    You’ll know if you’re genuinely appreciated as distinctively you, respected as a person in general, and then singled out for something else, right?

    Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 3:48 pm ¶

56. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Y’all are so great.

    You took the conversation in directions I never even thought.

    Since it seems obvious that we need to explore more on this topic, I’m going to work on developing:

    - Fetishization vs. Exoticization
    (Which will explore JC & Michelle’s points, which I kinda do sign off on – when you are part of a race that is considered to be unattractive, sometimes you don’t mind being as fetishized. Strange, yet true…)

    - Race & Sex

    (Mainly – do our progressive thoughts apply in the bedroom? Since what turns us on is so difficult to define, and different for everyone, the relationships between sex, taboo, and modern society will be explored. Thanks to LayLowLaw for that Alternet article I missed (and thanks to Luke Pharma who reminded me to go back and check the links with his comments. And hoo_boy, you are way right – appreciation is a big part of this discussion, one that I did not really articulate. Thank you.)

    I really hope to see you all in the comments for those discussions as well – I am looking forward to hearing your feedback.

    [Random comments I didn't get a chance to address -

    Ash: Thanks for the cosign. I don't think I have a fetish, but I like to check the motives. There is a big difference between a guy like Bi and a guy like Kenneth Eng...blanket statments aren't really working for me.

    JC - I am a total con going Otaku - Otakon in the summer and Katsucon in the winter. I don't travel though. At this point, it's just a tradition with friends ]

    Posted 02 Aug 2007 at 8:02 am ¶

57. alessandra wrote:

    To the people who mentioned feeling “invisible” and preferring to feel fetishized than that, what is your definition of “invisible”? I was not sure, while reading, if you were referring to feeling invisible professionally, sexually, in a general social sense, in terms of media representation, or some combination of any of these factors.

    I was also wondering if the invisibility was felt within your own racial and/or ethnic group, to a people of a particular racial/ethnic group, or in a very general sense. Does it matter more or less if it comes from within your ethnicity/race or if it’s from the outside?

    Posted 02 Aug 2007 at 6:44 pm ¶

58. lunanoire21@aol.com wrote:

    As an “invisible” person who is still a student, I refer to social & sexual settings. As a shy, AA, straight, dark, nappy and natural female growing up in a mixed environment, I was ignored, both intra- and interracially. On the other hand, it has worked out great for my outgoing brother. Attending the college w/ the best $ deal was also socially and sexually detrimental as it was in a mostly white town and all female. There were few non-frat boys to go around. Studying abroad in Japan, almost all of the male students who wanted a (Japanese) girlfriend had one by the end of the year, but many of the female students were single or maintained relationships with their stateside SOs. My current invisibility at an HBCU is b/c I am not glamorous like many of the other female students.

    When your media image regarding beauty is negative, and you regularly see examples of internalized racism, it’s easy to feel like chopped liver and to consider joining a nunnery. After all, long straight hair and light skin is valued by many people worldwide, including those who don’t have it. Both invisibility and fetishizing people are problematic, but I can understand the dating-related frustration of Asian American men. Feeling unwanted for years (based on life experience, not media images alone) is a frustrating experience. A person who usually gets one side of the crappy catch-22 might want to try the other side for a change of pace.

    Agency also plays a role. Some men still don’t think it’s appropriate for a woman to openly pursue them by asking them out directly. As disgusting as the practice is, an American man can choose a mail-order bride. Are there mail-order husbands? I am not serious about this, just putting it out there.

    Posted 03 Aug 2007 at 2:45 pm ¶

59. Hedonism wrote:

    Its difficult for me to find an appropriate opening for this post, so allow me to simply dive in to the heart of the matter. I am latoya’s afore mentioned friend, the black man with the “Toby” fetish. If there is anyone out there who doubts the validity of my identity i’m sure latoya would be more than happy to confirm I really am who I say I am. This is my first posting on the Racialicious website and I’m doing so now because I feel almost compelled to explain a few of the more delicate points involving my own fetish.
    First let be begin by congragulating latoya on another superb entry. Although I don’t submit postings to this site I am an advid reader of her entries and the entries of several others. I would also like to point out the very insightful responses fellow readers have already posted regarding my sexual interests. Some of you have challenged me to examine my own fetish on a particularly fine level.
    But allow me to clarify a few points. First of all, I do not suffer now, nor have I ever suffered from, some deep seated and racially based feeling of inadequecy or inferioirty (and I’m sure that is just what many of you assumed). To the contrary I am completely at home with my own racial identity. Let me say now so there is no doubt, I am proud to be a black man in America. My family made sure as to expose me, starting at a very young age, to all that encompasses black culture. But my pride in or knowledge of what is “black” is not the subject at hand here.
    What is at hand is a personal fetish I have which seems to make a good many people uncomfortable. Again, as to avoid any confusion, let me clearly state that I have a “mistress/slave” fantasy. It is a fantasy I have had since puberty. I feel no guilt or shame at this, and I admit having this fantasy knowing full well its implications and heavily charged matter. I do apologize if my personal preference “creeps” a few people out, but i’m not asking for your participation or your approval. It is a personal preference.
    Secondly allow me the luxury of explaining the fetish. I didn’t mean that I want a white woman to tie me to stake and beat me, although that would be a rather interesting topic to tackle on this site at a later time. My fetish runs more along the lines of role playing, i.e. the white woman is the mistress of the plantation who brings me into her bed from the field for a tryst after her husband, the “master” has run off to fight in the civil war. Yes there is a slight use of bondage and light slaps but honestly who hasn’t engaged in such behavior at some point or another.
    I enjoy this fantasy because it blurs the line between power and submission and honor and degredation. Who is really in control? The mistress or the slave she has to turn to in order to fulfill her sexual desires. And who is being the degraded, the slave or the mistress? The answer changes depending on your point of view and on this particular point I will offer no concrete explanation. The entire purpose of the fantasy is to explore ones own inner demons and motivating factors.
    What doest it mean for a man to give himself up to the needs of a woman? What does it mean for the woman to feel she needs to be in a command position and take what she wants from a man? What does it mean for black to submit to white? And what does it mean for white to turn to black for sexual release? Who is in control and who isn’t? Maybe the white woman is really the one being dominated, saved for a temporary period through the guise of a flimsy and easily discared title like mistress? Or maybe she really is the master in this case and the black man is submiting to her will. But then what does that mean for the black or man in the situation? Does he hate his mistress for forcing his hand or does he secretly welcome and long for her control? And if he does indeed seek to be controled what does that say about him?
    What does it say about anyone who would engage in such behavior? If you enjoy the fantasy does it mean that you’re secretly a pervert, or just that your appetites are larger and more varied than you would have orginally guessed?
    Through the ages people have speculated at the tense relationship between pleasure and pain. My fetish is simply another look at this double edged sword. The purpose of which is not the visceral fantasy itself but what it represents and what it says about those who engage. Perhaps those offended by it are the same people not secure enough in their own racial identity to examine it from a different, possibly painful, context. Or I could just be seriously twisted.

    Posted 06 Aug 2007 at 1:33 pm ¶

60. crista wrote:

    i think the thing about fetishes is that people are reduced to roles. they become invisible as many posters mentioned, and their personhood disappears into them completing a job for the sake of the fetish of the person. As far as I know, this seems like a basic human instinct, to objectify. Marx would say its brought on because we as human caught in a capitalist culture want to ”consume” and use everything, including people. so they have to be come objectified before we are comfortable doing that.

    anyway. the fact also that you are buying into a narrative the is so full of racially charged power structures as well…its just seems like you are objectifying yourself also. anyway. i understand seems like you want to ”explore” the power in those relationships. but i think what you are choosing to explore (who really has the power) is something that you already know. no one. both people are in some strange fantasy act play where the reality of the relationship is pretended to be ignored: both need/want the other.

    And in response to the original question as well asked in the article ”is my relationship/preference a fetish?” i think actions speak louder than thoughts that are proclaiming ”i just happen to like that charateristic” i think you need to ask yourself… ”do i like this person for THEM” there are really simple actions you can think on i think to examine your own responses. I dont mean that all of these mean/don’t mean fetish. but it helps you examine WHY and WHAT you like about the person. remember. we are talking about liking PEOPLE here. not some caricature of a race

    1. your *insert race* crush is so hot from afar and you talk all the time, but now that you see that he/she is missing *insert racial stereotype characteristic and/or assumed preference here*…oh..maybe you aren’t that interested. (ie: your asian bf has lots of body hair, your japanese boyfriend doens’t read manga, your black boyfriend doesn’t listen to hip hop, etc. etc. etc. )

    2. you just would love to take one of those ”hands clasped together” pictures showing off the skin difference so you can hang in your room.

    3. you talk about your ex as your ”ex *insert race* boy/girlfriend.

    4. instead of ASKING your significant other about something related to their ethnicity , you browse the internet to read column written by someone else talking about *insert race* or *insert culture* or discuss with other people who have dated this race before. you might go ask someone of the opposite sex, or a friend of the same race as well for advice on relationship fix.

    5. you find yourself thinking ”i want to hang out with *insert friend of certain race* more because i want a boyfriend of their same ”background”.

    Posted 06 Aug 2007 at 8:31 pm ¶

61. Michelle wrote:

    Hedonism….

    Thank you for joining our lively discussion. As you were the center of the debate in many ways, I am really in awe of your courage. This site, while wonderful can really be hard on people at times. I really applaud you for contributing to our intellectual pursuit.

    I must say that I hoep you noticed how your girl LaToya had your back for real. She went to bat for you and your character. She obviously has a great deal of respect for you and your friendship.

    Hedonism….I have always wanted to know…how does a man who has such a deep respect for Black culture, a love even, only date White women. LaToya said that you haven’t dated a woman of color since your freshman year in college. I guess I have always wanted to know the nuts and bolts of how that works. Would you please talk me through your thought process? Do Black women just not turn you on? Are White women really more attractive to you? Their hair, their skin? I was told by someone once that red hair and white skin was the prettiest comnination they could think of…that has stayed with me for a while..do you feel that way? Is there just something more attractive about white women? Sorry to bombard you with all these questions, I just feel like I really would love to know the answers to these questions.

    Posted 11 Aug 2007 at 4:03 am ¶

62. Hedonism wrote:

    Michelle-

    No need to apologize, I’ve been asked questions of a similar manner more times than I can count. Honestly I’ve never had a specific type when it comes to women. What I find attractive about one woman is not the always what I would find attractive in another. As a result my tastes run the gambit.
    As Latoya said, I haven’t dated any women of color since college but I don’t believe this has to do with any conscious choice on my part, nor does it have to do with my lack of attraction to women of color. To answer your question yes I find many women of color attractive. I can’t really answer why I’ve only dated white women in the recent past because for my the idea of race doesn’t factor in to what I look for. If I were to really think about it, which I’m attempting to do now, I would say I’m more attracted to certain features about a woman; smooth hair, full lips, etc. These all come together for me to form a whole I find either attractive or unattracive irregardless of skin tone.
    While it may sound like a cop-out to some its how i honestly evaluate women. I hope it was of some help for you to understand where I’m coming from. If not, ask a friend who has dated a white woman. He might be able to shed more light where I could not.

    Posted 14 Aug 2007 at 9:35 am ¶

63. Michelle wrote:

    Thanks Hedoism….

    I would ask a friend, but these discussions are very hard when had over a kitchen table, much easier over cyber space

    It seems that you like what you like. If there is some deep dark reason for it, then it is buried deep in your psyche and should probably stay there, just like for the rest of us.

    Thanks though! I appreciate your willingness to answer my questions.

    Posted 14 Aug 2007 at 10:16 pm ¶

64. nichelle wrote:

    I’ve been occasionally been accused of having an Asian fetish since that seems to be the only way people can reconcile a multi-racial Caribbean woman having a desire to learn East Asian languages (Mandarin and Japanese for now). Oddly enough no one ever thought a fetish was at the root of my desire to learn any of the other languages I’ve dedicated my time to learning. It especially doesn’t help that my best friend is Chinese so of course a Jamaican/Cuban lesbian and a Beijing born woman can only be friends if one is fetishizing the other.

    To me there is a very clear difference in being interested in another race and/or culture and that interest becoming a fetish. So based on what I’ve heard I think Latoya is safe for now.

    And Michelle I don’t mean to pick on you but why is it that people are so often accused of internalized racism or not being proud of their race if they date outside of it? How are the two connected? Maybe being of mixed heritage it’s different for me but that seems like a bit of an extreme position to have. And it seems to be mostly directed towards Black men. I don’t see anyone asking Robin Thicke to explain his thought process on not marrying white. Or him being asked if white women just don’t turn him on.

    Posted 16 Aug 2007 at 6:08 pm ¶

65. Michelle wrote:

    Nichelle,

    I would love to ask robin Thicke many questions, but he is not on this website so alas..guess I am out of luck.

    I think when I asked Hedonism the questions it was pretty clear. I don’t know if you read the whole article, or all the posts, but I think that my question was very non-accusatory given the context.

    Nichelle, when a group of people are oppressed, the oppressed group often times begins to value certain mental and physical characteristics of the oppressor. Many Jews during the extreme anit-semitism of Europe began to value being more European looking. Certain Asian cultures that were colonized by the French or British, saw a similar phenomenon within their communities.

    “Black” people in the Americas suffer from a similar hatred of Black features and value European beauty standards (see the article “Probrecita” for more info). Because of that history, it is very fair to question some people of color, Black people in particular, about their motives for dating White people exclusively.

    Men have more of a tendency to choose women who will bring them a certain status. For instance, an older White man dating a very young beautiful woman. I think that there is a possibility that some Black men date White women out of the belief that those women will bring them a certain status that a Black woman can’t offer. It is a theory that some people have when it comes to Black psychology.

    Posted 17 Aug 2007 at 11:08 pm ¶

66. Occams Razor wrote:

    FrancesM has a good point – what if you’re biracial? Are you suddenly immune from this sort of thing?

    One thing I am annoyed about is this – the minute a white man dates or marries an asian woman, they are instantly said to have some sort of sick fetish. Really? Well my father is white and my mother is chinese, and they have been married for 28 years and counting. And I when I hear all this crap about how all white-men-who-date-asian-people-must be-sick, it really gets me riled up. My father is not a sick man. He didn’t marry my mother because of some perversion. He didn’t marry my mother because he thought Asian women were submissive (my mother dominates our household with an absolute iron fist by the way), he didn’t stay married to her for 28 years and have three children because he thought she was exotic. He married her because he loved her, and still does.

    Race fetish does exist. Just don’t see it everywhere, and don’t judge all multi-racial families.

    Posted 17 Mar 2008 at 6:36 am ¶

67. Walter wrote:

    It seems kind of whack to me that so many people are grossed/weirded/freaked out by the idea of this guy Toby and his fantasy. Imagining sexual fantasies of domination isn’t exactly pathological – it is something people do all the time to get off. That slave/mistress role playing would be innocuous except that it involves white and black lovers suggests a kind of hypocritical discomfort with the idea of playing with race – if we are just people acting on our desires, why not let the racial distinction go and do what feels right to you and your partners? This would imply moving beyond purely race-obsessed notions of sex (i.e. the fetish) and accepting your partner’s desires as their own.

    Posted 31 Mar 2008 at 11:29 pm ¶

68. Cj wrote:

    You can’t help who you are attracted to.. or change that fact, your preferences is just by nature.

    Having a racial preference is kinda like prefering a blonde over a red head… but to a much higher degree… cause it’s not just hair, it’s everything.

    Racial preference has it’s root in DNA from thousands of years ago, as a natural instinct for survival of one’s tribe.

    Posted 21 Apr 2008 at 6:27 pm ¶

69. bas bleu wrote:

    I think Atlasien’s post was especially on-point.

    Bottom line – if you live in a society where race matters (and it sounds like we all do), then no one’s “preferences” about race (or ‘coloring,’ if you prefer) exist outside of racial ideology. That’s impossible. Now, whether or not those preferences are malicious is another matter. That’s the most provocative aspect of the original post and thread.

    As to being multiracial – yes, most relationships may be “interracial,” but being multiracial doesn’t place one (or their notions of what is beautiful or sexy) outside of racial ideology.

    Posted 13 Aug 2008 at 11:16 am ¶

70. genq10 wrote:

    @lunanoire21@aol.com
    I feel you; as a black female at a historically white college, I am definitely ignored. That doesn’t bother me too much, but what does is that I know many beautiful black women who are constantly overlooked for mediocre/down-right “ugly” white girls. The East Asian girls who date interracially tend to have the most mainstream (read: white) physical features or conform to the mainstream stereotype of what “Asian” should look like.

    Basically, the US racial hierarchy plays out in its entirety.

    Posted 13 Dec 2008 at 3:33 am ¶

71. genq10 wrote:

    And I also disagree with the notion that “you can’t change who you are attracted to”. Tastes change over time; are you now attracted to the same type of person that you were attracted to as a teenage (assuming you’re no longer a teenager)? I believe that racial “preference” is largely shaped by society–including strong preference for your own race above all other races. More often than we are willing to admit (I think) societal pressures/attitudes dictate who is “desirable” and who is not.

    Posted 13 Dec 2008 at 3:42 am ¶

72. bluemorpho wrote:

    @all y’all commentators – This is why I love Racialicious. The level of the conversation in the comments always enriches me.
    @Latoya – Thanks for handling the inappropriateness of alessandra’s attack with a deftness that got the conversation back on track.
    @hendonism – I appreciate your courage, both to share a story that is inviolably yours and to engage with this audience so deeply.

    I think that sex as a medium has the capacity of any artistic medium to interpret, address, illuminate, and even heal a range of human experiences, including racism. And like any other medium, it depends on the artist. You can end up with an artistic product or sexual experience that reinforces kyriarchy, capitalizes on pain, degrades instead of heals. So I don’t believe that either art or sex gets a pass to exist unexamined, (although I suppose you can do either behind closed doors and not have to answer to anyone).

    I found Andrea Plaid’s interview with Mollena on race play in BDSM to be enlightening. Mollena describes what sex and race play *can* be, for some. I admit I have neither the fetish nor the profound self-awareness and education to do what she does, but I’m grateful that she’s out there and willing to educate. All respect, you beautiful woman! The three part interview is below:

    http://www.mollena.com/2009/04/race-play-interview-part-1/
    http://www.mollena.com/2009/04/race-play-interview-part-ii/
    http://www.mollena.com/2009/04/race-play-interview-part-iii/

    Posted 22 May 2009 at 5:41 pm ¶