Trackbacks & Pings

1. Racism as a Lifestyle Choice at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 29 Jun 2007 at 8:56 am

   […] I’ll go into why street harassment is a horrible experience for women in my second post (check out Catcalling is a Cross Cultural Annoyance). […]

2. Dead in the Midwest » del.icio.us bookmarks for 07-01-2007 on 01 Jul 2007 at 7:32 pm

   […] Catcalling is a Cross Cultural Annoyance at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture (tags: men privilege sexism women race/ethnicity culture racism ) […]

3. Am I a feminist? « Unquiet Heart on 02 Jul 2007 at 6:12 pm

   […] what inspired me to sit down and think about this was this post about street harassment along with the series of articles in the Washington City Paper that it […]

4. ATR 74 - Help! I'm turning into a racist! - 07/10/2007 - Submit an Audio Comment: 206-203-3983 at Addicted to Race - beyond diversity buzzwords on 10 Jul 2007 at 8:08 am

   […] Catcalling is a Cross Cultural Annoyance by Latoya Peterson […]

5. Addicted to Race 74: Help! I'm turning into a racist! at Anti-Racist Parent - for parents committed to raising children with an anti-racist outlook on 10 Jul 2007 at 8:10 am

   […] Catcalling is a Cross Cultural Annoyance by Latoya Peterson […]

6. Addicted to Race 74: Help! I'm turning into a racist! at Race in the Workplace - how race and racism influence our working lives on 10 Jul 2007 at 8:10 am

   […] Catcalling is a Cross Cultural Annoyance by Latoya Peterson […]

7. Addicted to Race 74: Help! I'm turning into a racist! at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 10 Jul 2007 at 8:13 am

   […] Catcalling is a Cross Cultural Annoyance by Latoya Peterson […]

8. Addicted to Race 74: Help! I’m turning into a racist! | 8 Mover Directory on 17 Jul 2007 at 11:03 pm

   […] Catcalling is a Cross Cultural Annoyance by Latoya Peterson […]

Comments

1. Jennifer wrote:

   I agree with you 100% I am at the point where I am scared to go outside in my neighborhood to my car because I am harassed so much. Unlike you, I experience harassment from white men also at school mostly and construction workers around my neighborhood. Therefore, a group of men regardless of color scare me. Just yesterday I was walking home from the store, and three black men were walking in my direction. One told me to smile, but I kept walking because I was in a hurry and tired. One guy said If I didn’t have this bookbag I would have beat her ass.

   I already have social anxiety, but added with years of sexual harassment, since I can remember makes me hate going out in public to the point of staying in the house mostly.

   Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 9:35 am ¶

2. Angel H. wrote:

   Thank you! Thank you! Thank You! This cannot be repeated enough!

   Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 9:49 am ¶

3. Irene M. wrote:

   Thank you!

   The racism of the WaPo article needs to be dealt with, but to say that women are not gropped?! How isolated do you have to be to not realize what half of the population has to deal with?

   Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 11:36 am ¶

4. SF Mom wrote:

   Oh Latoya, this is so bad. This all stopped long ago for me (cuz I am an older mom-lady or because I moved away from NYC?) but my partner says I still walk around with an f-u stare so ingrained I’m not aware of it. I had hoped things had gotten better. Thank you for putting this out there so clearly. You should NOT have to deal with this. No woman should. I hope your post is read far and wide.

   Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 11:38 am ¶

5. Yolanda Carrington wrote:

   Latoya, thank you so much for writing this article on street harassment. However, I just want to challenge one assertion you made, that it is “undeniable that most of the street attention comes from Black men and Latino men.”

   While I can’t speak for women in DC metro area, I can say from my own experience that white men are just as likely to sexually harass women in public as black and brown men are. As a Black woman, I’ve personally had white guys cat-call or insult me from passing automobiles, and as a teenager I was regularly harassed face-to-face by older white men. I’ve also witnessed white men harass, insult, stalk, and demean women and LGBT people of all races. White women in particular are more likely to be harassed, assaulted, or raped by white men. As for the potential of Asian men to be street harassers, I think Asian women would be better able to speak to that question (since we know statistically that misogynist violence is more likely to occur within a given racial/ethnic group than without).

   While sexual harassment is definitely shaped and informed by race, women risk this harassment from men of all races. Wherever groups of men are together, women, children, and LGBT people are in trouble. This is a fact that we’d all do well to recognize sooner than later.

   Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 12:18 pm ¶

6. Lyonside wrote:

   >When a man feels like he has the “right” to force me to stop and speak to him, it is a whole other game entirely.

   This is the core of it right here - a sense of entitlement, a sense that women have no real need of their own (to get to work, a bar, a friend’s house, home, the library) if a REAL man wants something from them.

   It isn’t based on color - what it may be based on is SOME ethnic issues (what is acceptable/tolerated vs. what isn’t), what may be a factor of being part of a racist society. Who we consider/ is seen as a threat on the part of the victim of harassment can be affected. But race and racism also affects the harasser - if society sees you as aggressive, macho, oversexed, and it’s considered a “positive” stereotype… then it’s a lot to live up to. It doesn’t justify the behavior in ANY way, but it’s a source. People just don’t learn to act like this in a vacuum.

   I’ve seen preschooler boys make “moves” on other preschool girls. They’re imitating their brothers, their cousins, the guys in the music video, or mom’s boyfriend. It’s creepy as all hell - I swear, I even knew one kid who made some kind of weird head move/walking forward thing at ME, an adult, just because I got down on his level and asked if he was OK. Evidently that was the only way he knew how to relate to an unrelated girl (woman) who was being nice to him. We have a madonna/whore schitzo society, and kids are soaking in it.

   Again, it doesn’t excuse it, but they’re all factors.

   Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 12:43 pm ¶

7. Asha wrote:

   while most of the harrassment i get in NYC comes from black men, i have to agree with yolanda that it spans the races. my friends and i in college used to get taunts from white guys when we were walking near our womens college. in london i got catcalls and grabs from south asian guys. (in india it was also, unsurprisingly, south asian guys). here, and in india, from what i can see, i think it depends on economic class. in london though it was different, it was all types. i’m not really sure why.

   Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 12:54 pm ¶

8. Allen wrote:

   People shouldn’t touch strangers. I agree completely on that. As far as trying to talk to you when you don’t feel like being bothered, well, that’s unfortunate but not horrible. It happens, that’s how most men were taught to approach women. They should never, ever, touch you or harass you. But coming up to you makes sense in my mind. And, let’s just admit that when you say dressed for a night at the club, you mean dressed seductively to attract attention. This was just the wrong type of attention.

   Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 1:32 pm ¶

9. gatamala wrote:

   Lyon, you’re right about the sense of entitlement. TAN’s response was dismissive - especially since he didn’t take into account women of color who LOATHE and are humiliated by the way our male counterparts behave.

   As for DC, most folks hanging out on the street (as opposed to going to work) will be of certain ethnicities. I hate Adams Morgan on Fri/Sat nights in general for that reason. & yes, my guard is definitely up with some “types” more than others. Yes, I DO look over my shoulder & don’t give a damn WHO feels bad about it.

   Guys, understand: you don’t have a RIGHT to demand that someone to speak to you, nor do you have a RIGHT to pass judgment on my appearance (as discussed, your seemingly innocuous comments really aren’t to US & in this case, our opinions are the only ones that count).

   I spent yesterday reading posts on street harassment. I had forgotten (!) my experiences until someone brought up their own.

   I live in the Mt. Pleasant/Adams Morgan area, so avoiding Columbia & 16th are out of the question. I’ve had hollers and grabs etc… As I am a short woman, I have to look dead serious & keep my earbuds in (volume down) to minimize attention. I park in an alley and walk in that door, so I am always on edge.

   How many times have I ignored someone to be called, “bitch”??? The number of women who have been threatened with death and/or rape is astounding. That’s why it’s not cute fellas. Do you want someone to respond b/c she thinks you will beat/murder/rape her if she doesn’t????

   My ex could never understand why I got so alarmed at his little sister being hit on the butt by some asshole, until the kid kept on.

   ***
   I urge everyone to read these carefully

   http://feministing.com/archives/007244.html

   Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 1:55 pm ¶

10. gatamala wrote:

    let’s just admit that when you say dressed for a night at the club, you mean dressed seductively to attract attention. This was just the wrong type of attention.

    ahhhhhhh I was waiting for “she asked for it!”

    [sigh] There’s nothing wrong with appreciating a woman’s physique. You can turn and look. No sound effects and maintain your distance. Keep your damn mouth shut & hands to yourself.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 1:58 pm ¶

11. Lyonside wrote:

    Allen: What Yolanda is describing is not “conversation,” it’s loud calls, hoots, outloud analysis of your physical features, and a very RAPID turn toward verbal hostility if you don’t respond.

    My clubbing days aren’t that far behind me, and the last time I checked, guys and girls still approached each other using short but full sentences, and didn’t dissect their body parts right then and there (they waited until the dude/chick hit the bar or the bathroom).

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:00 pm ¶

12. dnA wrote:

    Latoya,

    Wait wait wait wait wait…

    While Klinger’s comments are somewhat racist, it is undeniable that most of the street attention comes from Black men and Latino men. I am sure that Asian and White men also catcall, but I have never personally experienced it. My friends and I don’t freeze up walking past groups of Asian guys hanging out in Adams Morgan. However, the last time we walked down Georgia Avenue, we passed a group of young black guys in an alley around 11:00 PM. We walked past them swiftly and silently. I started taking inventory of our group - one slightly drunk white girl in a long skirt, her two invest banker looking friends, three gay men, and two black girls - all dressed for the night of clubbing that was ahead. We walked past, and a voice wafted out of the alley.

    You live in DC? and we haven’t hung out yet? Laaaaaame.

    What men fail to see is that women do not see a group of men as people who just want to say hello. A group of leering men is a potential threat. Rebuffing just one guy’s advances is difficult enough - rebuffing a man in front of a group of his friends is going to cause a situation - the guy feels like he has to save face in front of his friends, which means embarrassing you.

    This is not a joke. This is how violence happens. Especially late at night, someplace like Adam’s Morgan, when the bars are closing and there’s hostility in the air because people are drunk, disappointed they haven’t gotten laid and looking to repair bruised masculine egos.

    And it’s not as though men haven’t responded to that kind of humiliation violently. While often it gets directed towards the dude the woman in question may be walking with, here in DC the humiliation of a rejection has led to serious and sometimes lethal violence.

    I don’t however, feel like that sense of entitlement to a woman’s body is limited to black and latino men.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:00 pm ¶

13. Lyonside wrote:

    OMG: Latoya, I meant. Who is Yolanda? My apologies Sign I’m reading too many blogs… or early senility, pick one…

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:02 pm ¶

14. Jessabean wrote:

    I too live in the D.C. area, though not in the city itself. I find that when I am in the city I get this crap all. the. time. My boyfriend lives in D.C. and I have let him know that I do not even feel comfortable walking to the store on his corner by myself because I will inevitably be harassed in some way by men hanging outside the convenience stores or just standing in the middle of the sidewalk waiting for women to pass by.

    I will say that in my personal experience, I’ve gotten more street harassment from people of color, and harassment from white guys inside bars and restaurants. I don’t know that that means anything, but it is what it is.

    And Allen, I have to disagree with you about dressing for the club. First of all, Latoya said absolutely nothing about being dressed “seductively.” Not all women sex themselves up when they go to the bar.

    Your argument is one I’ve heard often–that women should EXPECT the harassment simply because they wear what they do. I should have the right to dress nice for a night out and not be afraid to walk down the street, same as you. NOTHING excuses street harassment.

    Latoya, I hope you don’t mind if I link to this post on my own blog?

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:17 pm ¶

15. Stef wrote:

    I hope this information is disseminated widely. I think a lot of guys don’t know how these behaviors come of as threatening to women. Maybe some do and just don’t care.

    The worst is the possible escalation of the situation as the harrasser tries to save face in front of his boys. Or when you’re in a place where you can’t get away immediately, like pulled up at a stop light next to a guy who wants to leer at you through the car windows. And I like to have my windows rolled down when I drive! So I’ve got to sit next to your car for a minute and a half while you act a fool and I pretend I don’t see you or hear you honking your horn. And hope you don’t follow me as I finally drive off when the light changes.

    The fake cell phone calls, the “I just ate a lemon” grimace, the averted gaze, the intent search for some unneeded object in my purse…I’ve been there and done them all. And it’s sad that women have to do stuff like that, to essentially try to make themselves invisible.

    I’ve experienced this from both black men and white men. The styles differ along racial lines, in my experience. Latino men just tend to stare (gawk) although I have heard catcalls en español, as well as the occasional loud, strange rooster noises. (?) All of it sucks though. Because what can a girl do in those situations, realistically? You have to endure the humiliation or just try to escape.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:19 pm ¶

16. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Thanks all for the comments.

    Re: the black dress.

    Yes, a night of clubbing - at a gay club. We were celebrating one of my friend’s birthdays. And yes, the black dress is hot, so I expected the normal stuff.

    But come on - dude was in A DARK ALLEY. With A GROUP OF FRIENDS. AFTER 11:00 PM! On a sketchy block! The gay guys were afraid of being bashed, the straight guys were afraid of being robbed, and the straight women were afraid of all of that and rape.

    Danger signs all over that situation.

    Re: White Men

    Thanks for sharing ladies. Personally, I do not get picked up by white guys (my friends and I are actually testing why this happens to some of us and not others - are there racial markers?) so I have no experience, as I hoped I conveyed. But the posters above are absolutely right - white men do catcall, and the other violent actions against women. However, most of the more public complaints are leveled against black and latinos - hence the directions I took in the article.

    dnA -

    Yes it is lame! We should so do a meet up! I want to meet my fellow dc-ists: you, gatamala, Eun-Jun…holla at me man!

    Finally, unfortunately, that sense of entitlement is all too common. And men tend to get angry if their sisters/mothers/girlfriends are subjected to it in front of them. So why do other men allow it?

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:24 pm ¶

17. Stef wrote:

    Lyonside: or the effects of motherhood?

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:30 pm ¶

18. dnA wrote:

    Latoya,

    I was in Adam’s Morgan with a friend of mine last weekend, and she’s quite attractive. As a result every dude and his mom was trying to hit on her. There are several reasons why I don’t do anything.

    The most important though, is that it’s one thing to be rejected by a female. Most dudes hollering at someone in that fashion know they won’t get a real response. But if a dude steps in and tries to carry him, then it becomes an entirely different issue, and the possiblity of violence is raised.

    Another reason is she’s not my girl. While I’ll offer my arm in certain situations, like you can pretend I’m your man, I won’t interfere because I don’t think it’s my place to tell a girl which dudes are hollering at her appropriately.

    You’ve touched on a sort of wierd unspoken agreement among men that in order to preserve our sense of entitelment to women’s bodies, we categorize our own sisters/mothers/girlfriends as somehow “different” and not deserving of the same treatment. We don’t however, usually tell our friends to chill and leave a girl alone instead of being rude, and that’s the real problem. It may not be acceptable to treat someone we care about that way, but we’re fine with it if we don’t know them.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:34 pm ¶

19. dnA wrote:

    Thanks for sharing ladies. Personally, I do not get picked up by white guys (my friends and I are actually testing why this happens to some of us and not others - are there racial markers?) so I have no experience, as I hoped I conveyed. But the posters above are absolutely right - white men do catcall, and the other violent actions against women. However, most of the more public complaints are leveled against black and latinos - hence the directions I took in the article.

    White men are scared to holler at black women who are at a club with other black women. We can discuss the reasons for that, but that’s how it is. I think that’s the “racial marker” you’re talking about.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:35 pm ¶

20. Angel H. wrote:

    Also, Allen:

    Some of us women go to the club just to have fun and hang out with our friends, not because we want “to attract attention”.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:48 pm ¶

21. Lily wrote:

    Thank you SO much for addressing this, Latoya! When I read TAN’s post, I was almost crying, I was so angry. The way he dismissed women’s experiences like that broke my heart because it made me think that the men I tell my stories to don’t believe me either. Maybe the more women speak up, the more men will understand that this DOES happen, and it’s not okay.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 3:09 pm ¶

22. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Jessabean - Be my guest, link away.

    dNA -

    Not quite that simple my friend. See, my other black girlfriends do get hit on quite frequently by white men. One of my friends is tall and lean, and she gets hit on by white guys often. Black men rarely hit on her. She openly laments this fact. She dresses in a few different styles - casual rocker girl chic, jeans and halters, the occassional cute sundress. The other friend is Jamaican-American with twists and a fuller figure. She is also constantly propositioned by white men (and foreign men) but American born black men do not seem interested.

    I am the fullest-figured, so we chalked some of the difference up to body sizes and preference - but that isn’t the whole story. So exactly what is it?

    One friend thinks I’m hostile - I’ve only been approached twice in my life by white guys, both of whom knew me for some time. The bottom line is we all draw certain types of guys, but none of us know why that happens. Like I said, the study is in progress.

    Re: stepping in on a female friends behalf -

    Thanks for the perspective. I was thinking more along the lines of why men in groups of men allow their friends to do it…I mean, I know that groups can be very influential. But why would you allow your friend to get outright rude and call someone a bitch? (Probably not your crew, but it is a general question…)

    Lily -

    Men really just don’t understand it. It took a colorful police analogy, Byron Hurt’s documentary, and a frank discussion of painful past experiences to get my boyfriend to understand that some men are just that crazy. Luckily for us, most men do believe in decency - it is almost as if my boyfriend couldn’t conceive of a man forcing a woman to talk to him. The possibility would never enter his mind - so for some reason, he assumes it would never enter anyone else’s.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 3:54 pm ¶

23. Jen wrote:

    Latoya,

    I think your point about men not getting it because they assume others have the same benign intentions is true. When they hear about street harassment they think of it as “guys being guys, no harm done.”

    When I think about it, or experience it I think of the horror stories I’ve heard, or the scariest time it happened to me.

    I was on the metro, kind of late one night, and the car was almost empty. A group of 4 guys, clearly a little drunk, got on and sat a few seats away from me. I was reading, and one of them started talking to me. I was polite for a while, but he was clearly planning on having a long conversation. I said, “excuse me, I don’t really want to talk, I’d just like to read my book.” In a second, he got really angry. First he was just sitting there talking to his friends about how “no bitch ever” turns him down, but then he got up and stood over me, yelling that I didn’t know who I was messing with, and no stupid bitch was going to play him like that. Then his friends got up and headed over too. Fortunately, as soon as that happened I was able to just run off the train and wait for the next one.

    Suffice it to say I was terrified. And I don’t scare easily. While I’d like to give every man who has ever hit on me in public the benefit of the doubt, I’m not going to put myself at risk like that.

    Don’t even get me started on the guy who sat next to me once on the metro and put his head on my shoulder. Like someone else said, you should never ever be touching strangers.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 4:17 pm ¶

24. mr guy wrote:

    So is it a group black men and latino men more aggressive/bigger threat then a group of white men, or men in general regardless of race?I can never get a straight answer…………

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 4:26 pm ¶

25. Oranguteena wrote:

    I wrote a long comment about the sense of sexual entitlement that “catcalling”/the random approach of strange men represent, but now that I’ve got it out of my system I think I’ll spare everyone else and just say this: Latoya, Thank you SO MUCH for this and your previous post. They’re wonderful.

    That’s all. =)

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 4:27 pm ¶

26. Kai wrote:

    Another excellent post, Latoya.

    If y’all haven’t read it yet, I also highly recommend Sylvia’s excellent post About [White] Patriarchy and Men of Color.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 5:03 pm ¶

27. Angela wrote:

    This article is phenomenal. As I was reading it I got flashbacks of all the times I’ve been harassed, stalked, groped or grabbed and felt so petrified, humiliated and terrified I didn’t know what to do. I never realized it was sexual harassment because what the media tends to portray sexual harassment as physical and aggressively verbal harassment towards WHITE women. Not to mention most minority women have this “we must protect the [minority] man from white aggression” complex–so perhaps that is why minorities do not report it.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 5:17 pm ¶

28. Angela wrote:

    “I’ve seen preschooler boys make “moves” on other preschool girls. They’re imitating their brothers, their cousins, the guys in the music video, or mom’s boyfriend. It’s creepy as all hell - I swear, I even knew one kid who made some kind of weird head move/walking forward thing at ME, an adult, just because I got down on his level and asked if he was OK. Evidently that was the only way he knew how to relate to an unrelated girl (woman) who was being nice to him. We have a madonna/whore schitzo society, and kids are soaking in it.”

    That is creepy as hell–especially since it means that children are becoming more and more sexualized and are learning–especially boys–that a “relationship” with the opposite sex is strictly sexual in every manner(approach, dating, marrying, looking at other women,etc).

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 5:22 pm ¶

29. Kepler wrote:

    I can’t thank you enough for writing this piece!

    As a side note, I’d like to see a further exploratory into the ‘white men holla’ing black women’. But why stop there? I’m more of the dark chocolate persuasion and while I have a fairly decent number of black men hitting on me, it can’t compete with the number of south Asian and middle eastern men who hit on me. I’m not complaining, just curious to know if anyone else has similar experiences.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 5:30 pm ¶

30. eric daniels wrote:

    Maybe these so- called white women had racist attitudes about minority men long before they wrote articles about why they are bigots now . After years of hearing criticism of my fellow Americans of the behavior of a minority of Black and Latino males, and having to deal with those real- life consquences in my life (via employment, police harassment etc) I have little compassion and utter contempt for Americans of all races, gender and sexual preferences.

    What I am reading by these posts are nothing and articles by these ‘progressive white women to me sounds like liberal white angst and the continuation of 35 years of Black American Male attitudes on gender attitudes. What soltuions do the women have on this board to solve these issues of Black Male sexism and making white women ‘racists’ instead of the usual elite kvetching and wringing of teeth, all I have heard is what Black and Latin men do (place every bad sterotype here ) should we ban rap music, create laws that no more than 2 Black Males can congregate on a street corner at any time during the day and night.

    What laws will make ‘good hardworking Americans’ assured that Black and Latin men don’t bother or sexually make lewd gestures. Carmen, Asha, La Toya I have a solution, in Palm Beach every employee has to carry a card stating that they work on the island maybe we should do the same thing for Black American men, I know it sounds like 1984 but it will work.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 5:46 pm ¶

31. Donna Darko wrote:

    It’s mostly class related. I haven’t read this whole post because I read too many blogs and am very busy at the moment but it was noted at feministing that Klinger is a black woman. My personal experiences from childhood to today mirror Latoya’s. Latino men stare and black men look and say stuff.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 6:14 pm ¶

32. Lynne wrote:

    Thank you for writing this. As a mixed-race woman, my experiences with cat-calling men (and bullying in general, because the vulnerable feeling is the same) have spanned all races, and I’m not even what you would traditionally call “gorgeous” or “hot.” But these experiences have only served to make me wary of groups of men - the louder and larger (and the more drunk they appear), the more I will go out of my way to avoid them. And I’m small, too. Should things go south, I might be able to escape one guy. Not a group.

    Cat-calling is sexist, serves to make women feel objectified, and just illustrates how incompetent you are if you can’t think of a better way to start a relevant, interesting, and *welcomed* conversation. And if the other party doesn’t want to talk (to you), you don’t have the right to force them to.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 6:38 pm ¶

33. michelle wrote:

    I love this discussion. I just feel like we are preaching to the choir. Has anybody reading this gone “Hey, you mean repeating ‘Hey Shortie’ to every woman I see until it becomes a mantra is not the way to a woman’s heart? Wow, now I know and knowing is half the battle!”? I wish there was a way to take this to the streets, literally!

    When I lived in NYC (Harlem, BK) it was just commonplace to be harrased. In the day time, when the subways are full and there are people around, it’s an annoyance. But at night, when you are alone and vulnerable and you see a group of young men, whether they were frat boys or homeboys, I would get scared. No matter what I was wearing, no matter what I looked like. Period.

    I have a question, however. (I did say that I would not make the mistake of asking any more questions on racialicious, but oh well!)
    Does anyone have any ideas on how we can take it to the streets? Any brilliant grassroots ideas on how we can have some effect on the generations who are learning this behaivor?

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 10:39 pm ¶

34. JA Brown Girl wrote:

    I remember years ago taking a man to see War Zone, Maggie Hadley-West’s 1998 documentary about street harassment that runs the gamut from “Smile!” to “Bitch” to the 911 call from a terrified woman who is raped by a man who followed her home. (Hadley-West was, in the five weeks it took to shoot the film, harassed over 1,000 times.) Walking out of the theater, my companion, a man with whom I had lived for almost a decade, said, “That stuff doesn’t happen to you, right?”

    It wasn’t until that moment that I realized that men, even the good ones, the nice ones, the ones who have feminist outlooks, have absolutely no idea what women go through when we engage in the simple act of walking down the street.

    Just today, a friend of mine, a young mother, was harassed by a man in a passing car while she was out taking her nine-month old daughter for a walk in her suburban neighborhood. She said to me, “I thought, I’m going to start carrying a f*cking gun. I could kill men like that and no one would ever suspect me because who’s going to suspect some little innocent mom walking her baby?”

    Yeah, that’s how that kind of attention makes some–most–of us feel. Why don’t men get that?

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 10:40 pm ¶

35. FrancesM wrote:

    Latoya et al-
    Thanks for much for your post. Here in Portland, OR it happens as it does all over the world I’m guessing. Cat calling (which is a really gentle & sexist way of naming street harassment) happens a lot less frequently for me & I’m not sure if it’s because it’s Portland vs. Minneapolis, where I used to live & it was bigger & much more diverse. Or perhaps it’s in part because now that I’m over 30 and have won my self esteem the hard way I throw off more of the ignore or don’t eff with me vibe. Could also be that if I can help it I wear my iPod everywhere I go & always am reading a book on public transit.

    Recently I was walking home from the grocery store on a rainy day & didn’t wear my iPod because I didn’t want it to get wet. Some dudes in a car passed by and hooted & hollered at me saying “hey baby.” While this went on I simply looked ahead pretending not to hear them. Guess what happened next? I was called a bitch. All I’m doing is minding my business walking with my arms full of groceries & I’m the bitch? How many times a day this happens to women of all backgrounds from usually men of all backgrounds? My guess is that we couldn’t even begin to count.

    Who decided that a human being minding their own business is grounds for insults, compliments or any judgement made verbal? Why does some guys feelings about looks have to be made known to me or any woman? What anyone else thinks about me is not my business unless I care to ask. Otherwise I say some dudes need to keep their thought to themselves.

    I mean why would a guy driving by in a car cat call to a woman and think he’d actually find a woman who would go for that? Do they really want a woman with self esteem that low?

    So how are men & women (or women & women and men & men) supposed to meet and one day date. How about a nice tried & true method to finding out if the person your attracted to finds you to be the same: SMILE. Yes just smile. Don’t leer, don’t comment, don’t touch and for the love of Buddha don’t call someone a bitch. If the smile is returned then say hi & see what happens from there. If a person doesn’t see the smile or appears uninterested MOVE ON. Eventually desire will be returned. And if it’s quick sex you’re looking for, go to Craigslist.

    Men who claim that treating women like objects on the street is a learned behavior can unlearn it. It’s a poor excuse and it’s nothing short of lazy. Instead these bold men can talk to women about what harassment really feels like. How scary it can feel at times and how it feels like the opposite of freedom to be leered at & whispered to and whistled at. To be under such gaze can be very painful for women, especially those who have suffered from violence in their pasts or have low self esteem. These men can learn that true strength & sexual desire can be accomplished while all parties maintain respect for each other.

    I remember there were times when I was younger that I would get so frustrated with street harassment from white, Black, Hispanic, Native American and whoever else that I considered carrying a gun to flash at the men choosing to harass. I’m grateful I never made that choice, but sometimes I wonder if some woman somewhere will fight violence with violence. Though I wouldn’t wish harm to anyone, my guess is that if several women started threatening these guys back, eventually some dynamics would change.

    I think the better choice of course would be for these cat callers to learn a little respect & subtlety. That’s always the greatest turn on for me anyway! As my momma once said “it’s all in their eyes.”
    Peace!

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 11:16 pm ¶

36. ninyabruja wrote:

    I’m white, overweight, dress fairly modestly– and I’ve had the whole rainbow plus sexist butches harass me; though it’s only since rap went mainstream that I’ve had sexist East Asian men blatantly treat me as though I were nothing more than my vagina (previously there had been occasions when I had been treated with condescension because I had one; I’ve received similar treatment from fundamentalist Christian men).

    It is my fucking right to go wherever I damn well please without being leered at (and I KNOW the difference between a look that says “I think you’re cute” and one that says “you’re nothing more than your pussy”) followed, crowded, told to smile, assessed about my looks, having legs splayed into my space, propositioned and touched without my consent ( including the finger-stroke or hand press when I’m given my change and grabbing my waist if I’m in the way instead of saying “excuse me”).

    “The fundamental right of civilized people is the right to be left alone”–Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 12:30 am ¶

37. Atena wrote:

    Thanks for this, Latoya. Well done.

    Atena

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 12:42 am ¶

38. doviende wrote:

    excellent article, i’ll post the link far and wide. I’d like to again emphasize the “sense of entitlement” that previous commenters have described. This is one of the big problems I come up against as a man trying to talk to other men about their behaviour.

    When i try to tell men that they shouldn’t be trying to hit on every pretty woman who gets on the bus or subway, the whole “entitlement” thing really comes out and they start talking about how they aren’t just gonna sit around and be silent because they’ll never find a date or something. These are the same men who, when the conversation is about poverty or war or whatever, would be described as “very liberal”. They just can’t seem to understand that there’s a reason those women on the bus put on headphones and sit several seats away from them if possible… they feel entitled to go and hit on any woman they find attractive.

    I think articles like this are very helpful in trying to communicate to men the way that women experience their morning trips to work, etc. Because of the whole situation of being threatened with male violence, it doesn’t matter that in one guy’s particular situation he just wants to be nice and say hello and chat. His tunnel vision is preventing him from seeing the whole situation and consequently he continues behaving badly without acknowledging it. That entitlement feeling is his male privilege talking, and the sooner he recognizes that, the better off we’ll all be.

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 1:10 am ¶

39. Ife Cade wrote:

    Hey Latoya,

    thanks for the great piece. I was in an upscale part of LA this week when an older male catcaller was called on it by another person at the outdoor cafe and an argument began. It was nice to see someone get put on the spot for it.
    As for how to make guys “get it,” I try to ask them how they would feel if large, unattractive males or females who were clearly stronger than them catcalled them. It’s hard for them to get the concern women have b/c we never know which dude will get violent.
    I was followed by 2 people, separately in one night. Another tiime, on a late night walk home, some guy kept trying to talk to me. When I stopped at the gas station, the attendant said, “I know him, he’s a good kid.” How un-helpful!
    Men have no idea the breadth of techniques women and girls use daily to assure their safety, especially in areas where most people use public transit.

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 11:31 am ¶

40. WomunOfColour wrote:

    Donna Darko, Klinger is a white woman. First paragraph:

    “I have a confession to make. It’s pretty embarrassing for a white, twenty-something, liberal-arts-degree holding Washingtonian.”

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 2:13 pm ¶

41. Mireille wrote:

    I think we’re ignoring the class issue in this discussion. There are certainly elements of sexual harassment that are affected by ones racial and ethnic identity, like when and where it is ok to make a blatantly objectifying advance at a woman, but these ideas are overwhelmingly informed by class related norms.

    I live outside DC in Alexandria in and work at DCA (on a different note, we seriously all need to meet up) and I have had unwanted advances from every kind of man imaginable but the majority of men who try and chat me on up on the street, regardless or race or where I am in the world, seem to be working class. So, if you ask me, class far out weighs race in these circumstances. It seems unlikely to me that a sexist but professional black or latino guy would sulk around on the street late at nights looking to score. They, like other professional but sleezy men of all races, would be in the club feeling up a woman and trying to buy her one to many drinks.

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 8:02 pm ¶

42. Angel H. wrote:

    Class issue:

    For me, it’s been men of all races, all classes. The sharp looking guy in the suit may not be as crude as the guy in the smelly jeans, but the sense of entitlement is still there. If anything, “The Professional” thinks that all he has to do is flash some “bling” to get me to notice him. (Stereotypes, anyone?)

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 9:07 pm ¶

43. Angel H. wrote:

    eric daniels:

    Many of the women on this board has said that street harassment crosses all racial lines. So, even though Klinger might be a racist (I haven’t read her material), that still doesn’t excuse the fact that this shit happens everyday to all women by men of all races.

    You asked us what the solution is, but what you don’t seem to understand is that IT’S NOT OUR PROBLEM! The problem lies not only with the men who commit this harassment, but with men who allow their friends to commit harassment, men who don’t understand the concept of sexual harassment, and men who just don’t get it.

    So if you’re looking for a solution, gather your male friends and relatives, show them this post and the proceeding comments, talk amongst yourselves, and get back to us.

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 9:15 pm ¶

44. michelle wrote:

    Angel…

    I agree with you. It is not our problem.

    However, when it comes to the generations beneath us (re Angela’s post about the pre-schoolers), I think we have a responsiblity, no more of an opportunity to help train young men and women on how to do better than we are doing right now.

    I wonder, if every older man who saw some young kids acting lewdly and aggressively towards a woman, took some time and said something to the group of boys, would things change? I know, I know…what if they became violent towards him…I am just saying, there has to be a way to change the tide.

    And look, when one man comes up to me and asks for my name, number or sign, I am not put out, even if I have had a bad day. I just want to be clear that a man can come up to me in a public and well lit area and politely speak to me and that is acceptable. I feel like the majority of women in this conversation are talking about groups of men harrassing women, leaving those women feeling unsafe and vulnerable to violence. Or, when you politely refuse someone and then they call you a name and become beligerent and you feel like you could be in danger. Doviende, do your friends call women names and threaten them with violence when their advances are refused?

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 12:49 am ¶

45. Ike wrote:

    As far as carrying a gun and threatening sexual harrassers with it goes, that will only increase the chances that the encounter will escalate into violence, possibly resulting in YOU getting shot. And of course, if you go by the “shoot first, ask questions later” strategy, the justice system could well put you in jail like those women in New York. I don’t mean to sound like a downer, but yes, I am rather dishearted by the current options.

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 9:14 am ¶

46. Donna Darko wrote:

    Womun, you’re right. A WOC thought it was a WOC and threw me off:

    http://tinyurl.com/22bsxv

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 12:45 pm ¶

47. Donna Darko wrote:

    It’s mostly class because middle-class Latino and black men behave differently.

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 12:47 pm ¶

48. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Yuck.

    Some of the commenters on Feministing skeeved me out.

    But thanks everyone, for sharing your stories. My gut wrenched at a few of them, but I hope that men read this and understand - and are not afraid to comment, even if they may disagree.

    I am going to email TAN, to see if this post (and the comments) changes his opinion.

    Kepler -

    Hmmm. Maybe we should make documenting why people are attracted to one another a part of a public blog. I have a blogger account reserved, but my friend and I never got around to setting it up. Anyone else interested in participating?

    Mr. Guy - It depends on a woman’s experiences. Guys who loiter - generally a bad thing. Other than that, it depends. I try to avoid sketchy looking men.

    JA Brown Girl - I am now hunting for that movie.

    Mirelle - class is a big part of this discussion, but it becomes a bit large to tackle. Especially considering different types of harassment. Street harassment may be the chosen method for lower class guys, but upper middle class men may do it as well - clothes are not necessary a good indication of class.

    Also, Angel does have a point - if the harassment is taken off the street, does the sense of entitlement still remain? My mom experiences that kind of harassment, though it is not catcalls on the street - it is at a club she frequents in PG. The same behavior happens, but this time it is urban professionals perpetrating.

    Still, class should be discussed. Hopefully I can work in another post about it.

    Also, I want to bring up something I saw on the Feminisiting post - a commenter asked exactly what was the proper way to approach a woman on the street. Some commenters said “never” or not at all. What do you all think? (I have some ideas, but I’m holding back for now).

    Also, like Michelle said, how can we translate this to action? Currently, I am at a loss for how to deal with negative behavior - there are too many risks and unknowns to engage in confrontation, and I do not always have the time for a conversation. I do try to speak with men who politely speak to me, who are not offensive, but it feels like a small drop in a huge bucket…

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 10:20 pm ¶

49. ninyabruja wrote:

    Donna Darko: The majority of the men who have harassed me have been Middle Eastern, South Asian, Mediterranean and Latino– of all classes. My experience has been that sexist whites, blacks and East Asians (again of all classes) usually tend to blatantly treat me like I’m nothing more than my vagina when they’re wasted.

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 10:59 pm ¶

50. Karen wrote:

    There is nothing wrong with approaching someone on the street. But it is really about picking up the signs. If they are giving one word answers, walking faster, or they are doing something(like powerwalking, traveling with a child, or carry groceries), then you need to respect that. If they ain’t interested, they ain’t interested. PERIOD….. This is where the problem lies. Some men don’t know when to stop and let it go.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 12:30 am ¶

51. gatamala wrote:

    Yes it is lame! We should so do a meet up! I want to meet my fellow dc-ists: you, gatamala, Eun-Jun…holla at me man!

    I’m down!!!!

    Finally, unfortunately, that sense of entitlement is all too common. And men tend to get angry if their sisters/mothers/girlfriends are subjected to it in front of them. So why do other men allow it? dNA spoke on this: These men get angry when someone hits on THEIR women. Enter ownership/entitlement. It’s not about the insult, it’s about insulting THEIR property.

    Jen- Scary. That’s why I carry cab fare & TELL the cabbie how to take me home. Men just don’t get how those experiences have a cumulative, traumatic effect.

    Mr. guy - it depends on the context. No woman likes running ANY kind of male gauntlet. I have been the chocolate chip in the frat boy bar cookie & it makes me nervous. However, on the DC streets, those hanging out tend to be minority men. Those who will “holla” and/or touch/grab will be minority men. Those who feel the most threatened by or inadequate in relation to professional women will be working class minority men. So yes, black/Latin men hanging on the streets of DC are more threatening. Sometimes I wonder if black men feel they can get away with it with me b/c of my race. I was the only black female in a bar class. This was at a law school, so assumptions could be made about my background (not that this excuses harassment). Usually one guard manned the desk. One evening 5/6 guards were hanging out. I always spoke to whoever was sitting there - cordial, but distant. As I walked by wearing jeans, I heard the “oooh, got damn”, teeth-sucking etc…. I wasn’t the only female. I wasn’t even wearing shorts. Do you really think that these employees would DARE holla at a white female student/attorney/professor INSIDE a law school?????????

    JABrownGirl - Whoa. I have felt what your mom friend felt. I was sitting waiting for a shuttle @ Tenleytown (on my way to that aforementioned class). I was wearing a grey male hoodie & some track pants (sooo hot). This guy sits next to me and proceeds to holla for 10 min straight. I pulled my hoodie over & stared at my book. I wanted to cut his tongue out. Some chick’s going to snap one day & even eric daniels won’t have nothin’ on them! When she does, I hope we all speak out on her behalf.

    Michelee I wonder, if every older man who saw some young kids acting lewdly and aggressively towards a woman, took some time and said something to the group of boys, would things change? Unfortunately, he’s probably a dirty old man who thinks it’s funny.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 8:51 am ¶

52. lemure wrote:

    Thank you for all sharing your frustrations. I, personally have been sexually harassed by varying races of men, indoors, outdoors, and in different parts of the world. Its all the same, street hoods, i-bankers, drunk revelers, suave euros, cabbies, store owners, they are all cowards who think women are beneath them.
    I find no real difference, its all disgustingly threatening and unacceptable. As a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I have developed such a low tolerance, that I’ve taken to responding back. My mom actually hates that I won’t hold back a biting remark or a quick eff you and says it will get me killed one day. I explained that most of them don’t have the cojones to actually do something, but if they do, I’m going down fighting. I’m not ashamed to be an attractive woman (and I don’t dress “trampy”, but damnit we should be able to dress however we want) but this cat calling nonsense makes women ashamed of their bodies and live in fear instead of being part of an equal society. It IS up to men to check their friends because as long as they don’t, this social ills is perpetuated and will affect every single woman you care about too.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 10:24 am ¶

53. Fiqah wrote:

    An ugly truth: A lot of “nice” guys collude with, or even actively participate in, street harassment. They just do it when their girlfriends/girl friends aren’t around. One memorable instance of my own harassment in college came to an abrupt halt when one of the harassers in question RECOGNIZED me from a class we took together. It’s not a type or a personality, it’s guy group think that we all need to examine.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 1:08 pm ¶

54. Lyndsey wrote:

    I am dealing with this right now…Latoya you put into words everything I’ve been feeling for the past few weeks — I waited all this time for it to be summer, but now i just feel like a prisoner in my own apartment.

    Yesterday an older man walked by me, stared directly at my chest, and exclaimed “Those look like fun!”. WTF!?!

    Walking down the street with my white boyfriend only exacerbates any attention I’d already get.

    Since then I’ve devised a checklist that I go through before leaving the house:

    Ipod? check!

    Sunglasses? check!

    Long sleeve button down shirt over my dress or tank top? check!

    Mean, ugly ass mug on? check!

    sigh.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 2:57 pm ¶

55. Fiqah wrote:

    Also, JEN: oh holy GOD! That’s awful! I’ve said for years that teaching little boys to be “persistent” and “aggressive” and to “not take no for an answer” is a fabulous way to create men who are jerks at best and rapists at worst. UGH!

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 3:13 pm ¶

56. Kepler wrote:

    This past weekend I randomly called up some of my male friends/relatives looking for insight on the cat-calling approach. Here’s a brief summary of what they said:
    1) Most men don’t truly believe this approach will work. They seem to use it as a way to kill boredom (doesn’t the cat caller in the Post’s video illustrate this?).
    2) Men use it as a bonding experience. (reminding me of the Sex & the City episode when Miranda, after struggling to cope with a month long dry spell, confronts (and assertively agrees) a catcalling construction worker. Flustered he stammers out he’s married. The smirk on her face was priceless.)

    They were all quick to distance themselves from the ‘bad’ cat-callers, without having examined how. This reminded me of the study revealing most men don’t know what rape truly constitutes (I believe the study showed most men would willingly or have tried various situations that fit the legal definition of rape). As long as rape is perceived as violent, brutal and usually perpetrated by a stranger, men are absolved responsibility
    Interestingly enough, one of these phone conversations took place as I was walking home at night. I was stuck in the middle of the crosswalk waiting for a car to make a left turn. The car slowly approached me, and probably would have waited for the light to turn red had it not been for the emergence of a new car also wishing to turn left. The car revved up its engine and quickly sped by. The next car drove by revealing a group of teen boys. As they past me by, one yelled out ‘how much?’ as the car erupted in giggles. I relayed the events to my friend who acknowledged the second car harassed me, but failed to see how the first car could have been a potential harasser.

    I’m curious to know if the cat-callers realize how much of an annoyance the experience is. Most of the men I spoke with fell into two camps: a) truly didn’t know women were that bothered or b) thought women were lying about it (not unlike the comments over at TAN’s). I’m concerned how all of the apologizers (both those I spoke to and the commenters online) seem to trivialize the experience. It reminds me of men who are unperturbed at the idea of a stranger calling me a bitch, but are enraged if the word is nigger.

    /Completly OT
    Latoya: hmmm…. documenting why people are attracted to a different ethnicity. I jump at the idea of working with you! And yes, it would be nice to finally answer some of my musings. I think it would be refreshing taking steps to counter the prevailing notions of what constitutes as attractive while dispelling the beauty myth in an entertaining and potentially hilarious manner. But I have a few reservations; I fear it dissolving into an ‘Othering’* (like Wendi’s post on Craiglist Personals) . Most sites that try to explore/encourage interethnic pairing start off with the best intention, yet wind up relaying heavily on stereotypes.

    *Or maybe I’m just bitter. My newly-minted ex seemed upset when I didn’t live up to the Black Women (TM) stereotype (and elated when I did). Come to think of it, many of my non-black exes had the same problem.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 3:55 pm ¶

57. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Some notes:

    A great blog for documenting street harassment in DC:

    http://dontbesilent3.blogspot.com/

    NYC has hollaback NYC and Boston also seems to have a hollaback site, but the DC one appears to have given up the ghost.

    And for people (gender does not matter) interested in starting a blog that explores why people are attracted to who they are attracted to (check out my other blog lovelustlogic.blogspot.com for a general idea of the tone), email me at admin@alteregomaniacs.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 7:46 pm ¶

58. michelle wrote:

    You know, I went to the gym today and for the first time probably ever I wore shorts. I never wear shorts the gym, I never take my top off and just wear my sports bra, and I never wear clothing that reveals my curves. I have been hit on at the gym, but ironically enough, it is a pretty safe place. I wonder why? So I have two points…one, I was really uncomfortable wearing shorts. I felt like I was “asking” for it. In light of our discussions, I simply noted my thoughts and reactions. In the face of what I percieve as my survival, i.e. someone seeing me dressed in shorts at the gym and then thinking it is okay to assualt me in the parking lot, I become very conservative and restricted in my thinking and in my self-expression. What do other women think? Ninyabruja, I feel you.

    I have been truly enlightened by Kepler and Fiqah. I guess I am a walking oxymoron because I am in shock at their postings. I hate to think that even the nice guys are responsible for instigating this behaivor towards women. And Kepler, what you shared about a general male idea of rape was truly jaw-dropping, for me at least.

    What can we do to move the discourse forward? Be our brother’s keepers. Men you have the power, literally to change the tide, it seems. We as women have shared openly, honestly and for the most part without judgement. Men, it seems that you now have to run with this. All y’all that live in DC, it is summer. A prime time for the cat-calling to reach a fever pitch…what will your response be the next time you see it happening?

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 8:20 pm ¶

59. michelle wrote:

    Sorry, my second point is that I have found the gym to be a safer place. What is it about the gym (where class is almost a non-issue) that silences most men?

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 8:21 pm ¶

60. LayLowLaw wrote:

    ninyabruja: Why cite Brandeis in “Olmstead” without including the good stuff to strengthen your point? It may be the Supreme Court decision that upheld Elliot Ness’s right to wiretap bootlegger telephone lines between their homes and offices, but the words of Brother Brandeis rang louder when he said, in dissent:

    “The makers of our Constitution understood the need to secure conditions favorable to the pursuit of happiness, and the protections guaranteed by this are much broader in scope, and include the right to life and an inviolate personality — the right to be left alone — the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men. The principle underlying the Fourth and Fifth Amendments is protection against invasions of the sanctities of a man’s home and privacies of life. This is a recognition of the significance of man’s spiritual nature, his feelings, and his intellect. Every violation of the right to privacy must be deemed a violation of the Fourth Amendment. Now, as time works, subtler and more far-reaching means of invading privacy will become available to the government. The progress of science in furnishing the government with the means of espionage is not likely to stop with wiretapping. Advances in the psychic and related sciences may bring means of exploring beliefs, thoughts and emotions. It does not matter if the target of government intrusion is a confirmed criminal. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law. It is also immaterial where the physical connection of the wiretap takes place. No federal official is authorized to commit a crime on behalf of the government.”

    It would take a while, but eventually his position would influence your legal protection (in limited degrees) from fake cell phone calls, eavesdropping, and catcalls from government officials at least (v:

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 8:31 pm ¶

61. hoo_boo wrote:

    Latoya,

    Though I agree with the sentiment, have to raise a point on a double whammy depersonalizing you and some others are doing.

    White men. Black men. Latino men. Asian men. Not gay men.

    No distinction made if it’s a relatively homogenous group, in terms of age, ethnicity, or culture.

    Men are still men and *can* (but won’t necessarily) act badly whenever they are in groups. Men will talk in a group from a distance but many times never approach a man or woman. I’ve also seen the same behavior from women towards men and other women. If it’s unwanted, not cool.

    The larger point isn’t that some racial groups *seem* to exhibit the behavior more than others, it’s why do the people who do it act the way they do when they’re in groups anyway.

    There *is* a distinction to make by ethnicity and culture, more than class, that explains why men and women tolerate and perpetuate certain language and behaviors (which is nothing more than bullying).

    Listen in on what you would label a “white” group in Adams Morgan and dig deeper– who’s actually catcalling Irish versus Italian versus Spanish vers [fill in the blank] and how are the women playing on the same field (if at all).

    The “entitlement” is a reinforcement of behavior that plays itself out through relations and cultures across the board. When they clash *boom*. Not an excuse, just added fuel.

    (For sure, if I’m a lone individual, out of my element, day or night, and I receive a provocative comment or glance, I wouldn’t be scanning or sizing *any* group up with much scrutiny up close without a film crew and some armour…)

    Not a excuse, but an interesting insight: look at men in groups and women in groups in and around DC– that which is homogenous has its own behaviors and ways of interacting across/within gender.

    Still unwanted behavior and attention should be called for what it is, but don’t slide into lazy labels just because the decibels are loud, behavior obnoxious, and words repellent.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 9:00 pm ¶

62. Kepler wrote:

    Michelle:
    I read that study years ago and I still get shivers when I think about it. I don’t have time to try and find the study (maybe someone else knows?), but I remember college-aged men were given various scenarios and asked if they would or have ever considered such behavior acceptable. Some of the scenarios included well known ‘driving somewhere remote and pretending to run out of gas’, as well as taking advantage of an intoxicated woman. There were more subtle scenarios, but I was left with the impression that many men believe it’s only rape if the situation was featured in a Lifetime Movie of the Week.

    Note: I didn’t mean to imply that 90% men think/behave this way (I can’t remember the exact number, but it was more than 50%). In addition, I remember reading the article about 5 years ago, so perhaps things have changed for the best (Hopefully; but why stop there? Maybe the study was debunked, shown to be flawed, etc. But having grown up as “one of the boys”, I doubt the study is utterly inaccurate).

    But I completely agree with your statement that men are responsible for preventing rape. It annoys me to no end when I see/hear advice given solely to women on how to avoid being raped (often encouraging women to curtail their independence). As long as society continues to ignore illuminating the various forms of rape and admonishes rapists, I don’t see how the frequency of sexual assault/harassment will drop.

    Hoo_boo:
    Thanks for pointing out how heteronormative this discussion as become!
    You are absolutely correct about how people of all ethnicities/ages/sexualities/etc have the potential to act badly, whether towards members of the same group or others. But, personally, for some reason a difference exists between the a badly acting group consisting of women and one of men. I admit I’m more fearful of the latter. Is it because on average they are stronger, and more likely socialized to believe violence is an option? Is it because they have the power to remind me I am a social class below them? I apologize if it seems like I’m mocking your post (I’m not!), I’m just saying the intensity of unwanted attention seems worse when the group consists of males.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 10:39 pm ¶

63. ninyabruja wrote:

    LayLowLaw, thanks for the full quote–I don’t remember where I first read the excerpt; I’m a writer, not a lawyer.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 11:09 pm ¶

64. Andrew/Animelee wrote:

    Dear fellow males,
    If you do not understand yet, please watch this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=t4hQDgzd7Bw

    Put yourself in that woman’s shoes.

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 1:29 am ¶

65. Trina wrote:

    Thank you a thousand times for this article. It is just a fact of nature that most men are stronger than most women. Despite their height or size, men are most often stronger than us. It is frightening to be approached by someone that you know has the ability to seriously hurt you and you have no idea if he will or if anything you say will “set him off.”

    I’m always polite to men that approach me, even if they aren’t and yet, I’ve been grabbed, yelled at, had things, including glass bottles thrown at me . . . it’s terrifying.

    I try to do everything I can to scream at the world that I don’t want to be bothered. I wear earphones almost everywhere, grocery shopping, walking down the street, waiting for the bus, on the metro, you name it. I purposely don’t make eye contact, even though I take pains to be aware of my surroundings. I walk fast and keep a set expression on my face. I don’t understand why someone feels it’s OK to tap me on the shoulder to say good morning when I have earphones on and when I take one earpiece out and mumble good morning and then turn away, why you feel I want to carry on a conversation with you. If I took out both earpieces and turned toward you with a smile, go for it. Otherwise, please leave me alone.

    Body language often speaks louder than words. Most women who want to be approached make it known by their body language while most that do not make it known via the same means. Of course there are those that span the middle, but so many women make it clear.

    I think some men revel in the sense of intimidation they impose on women with catcalling. Some are just ignorant and think they aren’t doing any harm, but I know some know the harm they are doing and get some sort of freakish joy out of it. The thing is, women have no way of knowing one from the other.

    Tell a man you’re not interested and he may walk away or he may reach out and hurt you physically or abuse you verbally.

    Tell him you have a boyfriend/husband and he may walk away, say he’s a lucky man or say what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him.

    It’s a potentially dangerous situation for a woman to find herself in and being in a public place does not lesson that feeling. We all know that bystanders will be just that and stand by while you are assualted.

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 8:45 am ¶

66. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    hoo_boo,

    You raise some excellent points.

    Re: Labeling of men

    While it would be nice to have more descriptiveness in the assignations, some times it is not possible. Particularly when confronting a hostile situation - the immediate thought is to get away from the scene, not get a good ethnic ID on the perps. So, for example, I may not be able to tell from a quick pass if the group heckling me is Nicaraguan, Salvadorian, Mexican, or a mixed group of people who are from different countries. What immediately registers is latino. Same thing with black men - while an accent may tell me that I *might* be dealing with a foreigner, again, it is difficult to tell. After a while, most of the experiences begin to blend into one another.

    So, what I am trying to get at is that I don’t think we are being lazy with labels - it’s just that in the moment, we couldn’t gather enough information to state definitive stats.

    (BTW, age groups of catcallers ranges widely - I am generally not afraid of teenagers under 16 in groups, but 16 - 45 year old men (approximate age range) seem to target me the most. Anyone else care to weigh in?)

    Re: heteronormative

    As I said higher in the comments - and other posters have weighed in on - everything is not within my realm of experience. I don’t experience this kind of harassment from white guys, so I was appeciative of the readers who shared their stories. The same thing with homosexual men - I am fairly ignorant of what goes on in the gay community, outside of what my friends share with me, so if you have a story, please post it. (Thinking on it, I do not believe I really talk to my gay male friends about street harassment…)

    Thinking further about the heteronormative way of thinking, I am kind of flashing back to an incident that happened when I was 12. My friend Aaron had come by to visit, and when he got to my porch, he was livid. He informed me that when he had walked past a group of men, they taunted him, and called him strawberry boy.

    Thinking back on it now, was that Aaron being catcalled? I did not connect the two things before, but it kind of makes me wonder what else I missed. And I suppose the standard manner of thinking is that a harasser is out trolling for women or an easy sexual encounter - so I guess we seperate the two issues.

    Thoughts?

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 8:55 am ¶

67. hoo_boo wrote:

    Kepler: No harm, I hear you, Michele, Fiqah et al. And it’s great that we’ve heard *some* women’s general thoughts about the bad things *some* men can do. But look at the inevitable path the talk turned. To me, though, this is not a challenge or a contest, or a “man’s responsibility”. If the solution(s) were so neat and tidy, couldn’t the problem be just as easily articulated?

    Think back to the huge stinking elephant *no one* has mentioned on here in a year since everyone who rushed to judgement was made to look like an ass: Duke. I don’t think the boys were sincere, but I knew they were innocent. Still think sexual ethics aren’t murky when it comes to how people judge entitlement, desert, desire, instinct, urges in themselves and others? That’s before personal becomes social professional becomes economic becomes political.

    Why the women here should take heed with their argument: I really like Brooklynite’s slamming David Brook’s piece on Duke from Apr 2006. Thnk hard about what the message used to be for men *and* women– to neuter us both because we couldn’t be trusted to make our own decisions.

    http://brooklynite.livejournal.com/68358.html

    Seriously: any given day– how many questionable decisions do people make with respect to (or because of) sex through the lens of gender, age, class, ethnicity. I can count a lot more than a catcall and the dismissive staredown towards another human being.

    Another ask: why has no woman (or man, for that matter) mentioned notable national anti-rape/harassment organizations started *by men*– like Men Can Stop Rape which not only coordinates activities with leading womens groups but also arrays a broad range of interests from health to law enforcement (across the philosophical spectrum) to focus on matters like prison sexual abuse and young men of color (even though a white guy started it)? (full disclosure it was co-founded by acquaintances in Washington DC and receives both private and federal funding).

    Responsibility is collective…

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 8:58 am ¶

68. hoo_boo wrote:

    Men Can Stop Rape
    http://www.mencanstoprape.org

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 9:00 am ¶

69. Trina wrote:

    “Seriously: any given day– how many questionable decisions do people make with respect to (or because of) sex through the lens of gender, age, class, ethnicity. I can count a lot more than a catcall and the dismissive staredown towards another human being.”

    So very true. It’s my opinion that so many of the problems in American society are caused by a totally willingness of people to not take responsibility for their own actions and that our society as a whole seems to accept the various excuses they give for not doing so.

    I’ve noticed that several posts and the City Paper article mentioned how a woman is dressed. While I can understand this concept - i.e. dress up like a police officer and reasonable people will assume you are a police officer - my conduct is based on MY principles and not anything or anyone else.

    If my parents raised me to be polite, I’m going to be that no matter how rude a person may be to me. My conduct is MY responsibility and MINE ALONE. A man that is respectful of others, including women, will not harass anyone, including women.

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 10:29 am ¶

70. B wrote:

    Great post. Thanks for responding to TAN’s posting, which I found more than a little troubling. I’m not a blogger, but considered responding because I felt that the perspective of a woman of color was necessary to suggest that Klinger’s racism doesn’t mean that catcalling isn’t a problem for all women. Glad you responded and did it well.

    As for the question:”Also, I want to bring up something I saw on the Feminisiting post - a commenter asked exactly what was the proper way to approach a woman on the street. Some commenters said “never” or not at all. What do you all think? (I have some ideas, but I’m holding back for now).”

    Never. It is a waste of time for the catcallers–do they *ever* get a positive response that includes a *real* phone number?–and, as has been well documented here, both annoying and disturbing to the harassed.

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 11:39 am ¶

71. FrancesM wrote:

    I addressed the how to meet people question in an earlier comment (#35) but I’m re-posting it.

    So how are men & women (or women & women and men & men) supposed to meet and one day date. How about a nice tried & true method to finding out if the person your attracted to finds you to be the same: SMILE. Yes just smile. Don’t leer, don’t comment, don’t touch and for the love of Buddha don’t call someone a bitch. If the smile is returned then say hi & see what happens from there. If a person doesn’t see the smile or appears uninterested MOVE ON. Eventually desire will be returned. And if it’s quick sex you’re looking for, go to Craigslist.

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 1:59 pm ¶

72. michelle wrote:

    (BTW, age groups of catcallers ranges widely - I am generally not afraid of teenagers under 16 in groups, but 16 - 45 year old men (approximate age range) seem to target me the most. Anyone else care to weigh in?)

    I am right there with you. As soon as they get old enough to be stronger and bigger than me then I have to say that I see them as a potential threat.

    And what does go on in the gay community? Great question. I have been to gay bars and have lived in neighborhoods that are predominately gay men, and from what I can see the dynamics of sexual relationships (more specifically, casual sexual relationships) within the gay community are totally different so how do we fold that part of the issue into the discussion? I am curious.

    I know that I have been catcalled in the W Village by “homo-thugs”. Is that relevant?

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 2:07 pm ¶

73. Eun-jung wrote:

    Wow I am really late responding to this but that is because work blows and I don’t have enough time to settle down and read everyone’s comments and make an educated response.

    But I was just in DC last night (and yes LaToya and dNa- I agree that’s LAME that we haven’t hung out yet and we live so close to each other) and as an Asian-American woman… I tend to attract EVERYONE except…Asian-American guys. There are a couple of things I chalk this up to - one: the demasculizing of a lot of Asian males in today’s society…leads them to be shy most of the time and sort of take the back door approach to dating women. Meaning, they are only opening that back door if they have known the person living in the house say…from childbirth. Or it could be that I am adopted and the nuture of White-Americana has seeped its scent into my skin and creates an anti-Asian force field surrounding me. (Note: There was sarcasm there.)

    On a real note though, I tend to think it might actually have a lot to do with the fact that I am adopted. If only for the reason that last night hanging out at FIVE, dancing my ass off, I went with my oppa (my friend Paul who considers himself like my older brother) and my good friend Yuli-unni who also considers herself like my big sister. Yuli-unni is gorgeous…she’s tall, she’s pale skinned, has sang ka pul (second folded eyes), long black hair with highlights of brown…and wears the highest fashion from Korea. She holds herself like a dainty flower, her voice is so soft, and she giggles at everything like a little schoolgirl. She’s one of the sweetest people I have ever met but everytime I hang out with her - even though she is 8 years my senior…I feel like a brute.

    She brought a friend along, Amy…a spitten image of her but with a Canadian accent (she grew up in Canada from Korea) and just a beautiful.

    And then you have me…I am the girl who is 5′ exactly, loves my nasty ass Pumas, my army fatigue cargo pants, and a nice tank top. I am not a total tomboy but I figure, if I am going out to dance, I better be comfortable…I unlike most people who come to clubs in DC, do not want to get some ass, I just want to hear my drum and bass, and house music, and techno in peace.

    But suddenly, as the night began, and I am with these VERY Korean looking people, I start noticing that the three of us are getting hit on. Immediately in the line, a white guy who was 20 (I know because he wasn’t given a bracelet when he went in before us.) turned to Yuli-unni and started to strike up a conversation with her and with Amy. Why not me? Possibly because I looked “too
    American” and those two girls looked like the exotic, possibly “stereotypical” way a white guy might view an Asian girl. Timid, beautiful, pale…shy…soft voice. The whole works.

    I’m a freakin’ loud mouth.

    We walk into the club…immediately, you scope out the place, and I am pretty aware of my surroundings especialy when I go out in DC. Yuli-unni and Amy-unni immediately get hit on by all white guys…not one white guy hits on me. A guy walked by, said I was hot, but didn’t pursue me like he did with Yuli and Amy.

    Cut to: on the dance floor, and in an instant, a guy comes up and says “I have to say you’re the most beautiful and the cutest thing I have ever seen.” … he insists on dancing with me and tells me he’s from South America.

    Later on, I get hit on by a Filipino-American and then two black guys (one that gave me his number as he posed to work as a “promoter” and wanted to give me deals on being on VIP lists….yeah, okay.)

    Not one Asian. Although there were a lot. Not one white guy. And there were a lot of those too.

    For some reason, I tend to always attract multi-racial people. Maybe it is the aura that I give off that I don’t particularly care about race or origin…as long as you’re not a dickhead and you’ve got a good head on your shoulders.

    So what is it about me that attracts the multiracial dudes? And then again, why do I feel like I am too white for the white dudes, and too white for the Asian dudes?

    I might have strayed away from the original point but since the incident last night was still fresh in my mind, and it definitely deals with race… I wanted to comment about it and get anyone else’s thoughts on what it could be.

    BTW, LaToya - send me your email address? I will give you my number and we will make a dinner date with dNa and the others. I can’t wait!!!

    Posted 07 Jul 2007 at 9:41 am ¶

74. squidfly wrote:

    I got tired of white women crossing the street when they saw me, that decided to do cross the street before they did.
    To all the white women out there who are so focused on Black or Latino men catcalling, why is it that you still earn less then white men in the work place? After all the majority of Managers are white males. That’s the source of your real frustration. An article in the NY Times a couple of years ago detailed the rates of depression and suicide among White Female Med Students and Interns due to the harrasment by White Male Professors; it’s not all Grey’s Anatomy now is it.
    I don’t condone harrasment, however I’m sick and tired of the American-cultural pastime of fingering the scapegoat, namely Black men. Ask your white boyfreinds how many women they harrased that day or intimidated. Also recent studies have shown that in domestic violence white males from the mid west have higher rates of abuse than do Black or Latino males. It seems so hard to shake the imbedded subliminal racsim of the Plantocracy.

    Bart: Hey, where the white women at?
    Blazzing Saddles-1974

    Posted 07 Jul 2007 at 3:24 pm ¶

75. ninyabruja wrote:

    Squidfly, it isn’t the white skin privilege, it’s the penis privilege. Again, women of all races, ethnicites and classes are verbally abused and/or treated with condescension by the whole fucking rainbow as soon as they step out the door. Don’t you tell me what the source of my frustration is when you don’t know me. I’m fortunate to be able to work from my home, but I’m beyond fed up with not having my right to be left alone respected when I leave it. Yeah, the legal system in this country is for shit and people of color are accused with offenses more often than white, but that is what sells in the media.

    Posted 07 Jul 2007 at 11:52 pm ¶

76. squidfly wrote:

    This is cyberworld, no one knows anybody, so get over it. You know very well what I’m talking about.
    And who has the most privileged Penis?

    I have a hi-powered job and I’m still followed by store clerks, stopped by cops, welcome to the “Real World”

    Posted 09 Jul 2007 at 10:58 am ¶

77. ninyabruja wrote:

    This particular thread is about sexual harassment, not unequal payment in the workplace.

    FYI, I’ve been treated like shit by the police, followed around stores, told that apartments wouldn’t be rented to me.

    Verbal abuse is not a class or color issue; it’s about acting on the belief women don’t have the right to be left alone. By penis privilege, I mean the attitude shared by way too many men that having dangly bits makes one better than those who don’t.

    I suggest that you reread comment 43.

    Posted 10 Jul 2007 at 12:32 am ¶

78. Mr. Tony Geinzer wrote:

    I feel sick of Street Harassment of Women and I am a Special Needs Man with Autism. The terrible thing is that this culture freaks me out terribly. Whatever happened to the true innovators and motivators? I feel that society as a whole needs to return to motivating and innovating because we CANNOT be scamming and lying for dates that can’t and won’t happen under any condition and disinterest! As a smart and responsible adult trying to influence change in our society, we need to be inspiring positive activity rather than throwing money at the matrix for this Julius Caesar Sized Epic that is brought to light because of a few not so entertaining clowns whose scams and lies are cheaper than Krusty’s Merchandising Woes on “The Simpsons” really, really reek in this already overheated air and all the liars have had their day and we are dog tired of it!

    Posted 07 Aug 2007 at 11:06 pm ¶

79. flabbyabby wrote:

    If you want an even better video perspective there’s a great short film I saw on “Image Union” a local show in Chicago where they showcase short films. It was called “Flack” and it featured women of many different races complaining of the daily harassment they get. One in particular I can relate to was a young black female who was annoyed because a man made a big point of complimenting her because she wasn’t wearing make-up. And she said ‘if I look good then I know I look good and I don’t need you to tell me’. That to me is another big problem and yes it may sound racist but especially black men with black women as if we’re supposed to be so ridiculously enamored with whatever you say. Or maybe sometimes some women are just not in the DAMN MOOD to be bothered and don’t want to hear ANY comments from anyone.

    Posted 06 Mar 2008 at 9:35 pm ¶

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