Jessie Davis and Bobby Cutts: It’s About Interracial Sex Folks

by guest contributor Rachel Sullivan, originally published at Rachel’s Tavern and Alas

Ok, I’d be remiss if I didn’t say something about the latest crime to become a media circus. I’m sure by now most of you have heard about the murder of Jessie Davis, who was almost 9 months pregnant and was likely killed in front of her two year old child by the child’s father. Since Davis and Cutts were a black/white couple and I am someone who studies black/white interracial relationships and who is in a black/white interracial relationship, I know many people are wondering what I think about this case. I’m not here to offer any opinions on the particulars of the case1 , but I do want to talk about the media coverage of the case.

I went around to a few blogs, and I visited AOL Blackvoices and a couple white supremacist message boards to see what they were saying, and quite frankly it was horrible. Many people were saying that the victim deserved it; that she was “white trash;” that her child was ugly; and that she was a sleazy, homewrecking whore. Not surprisingly, the accused murderer, who is the poster boy for anti-black stereotypes, was also being trashed as a violent womanizer who lusted after white women. I can’t tell you how many racist and misogynistic comments I read; and not surprisingly the white supremacists were giddy over this case.2

Terrence Says has a reasonable post, which anonymous bigots tried to take over in the comment thread, and in his post, Terrence engages with the question that many folks are thinking–is the media circus surrounding this case about race? Terrence cites a recent case of a white man who killed his white wife and three children:

Today, like Bobby Cutts, Jr. who was arrested in Ohio, Christopher Vaughn was also arrested. Christopher Vaughn was arrested two hours prior to the funeral of his family in St. Charles County, Missouri (suburban St. Louis) where the family originated; yet, so far, there has not been a mention of Vaughn’s arrest that I have been able to observe on the weekend news shows.

As sad and tragic as the Jessie Davis story is, I can’t help but wonder if this story had involved a missing pregnant black or Latina woman if it would have the same media traction.

Well several of the anonymous commenters went crazy, saying that the case received so much attention because Davis was pregnant, because Cutts was a cop, because the child was left in the house alone, and everything but race. I certainly agree that all of those things make the story more sensational, but I really can’t fathom that it is much more sensational than the Vaugh family case mentioned above. However, I find myself having a slight disagreement with Terrence. I agree that white women victims get much more attention than Black, Asian, Latino, and American Indian women, and I agree that race is a big factor in the media attention the case has gotten, but I would be more specific than Terrence.

It’s about interracial sex. Interracial crimes make big sensational news stories, but crimes that involve interracial sexuality arouse the deepest passions of American bigotry. The OJ Simpson case, the Duke Rape, the Kobe Bryant rape case, and now this one–they all have tremendous sexual overtones. For a long time, I was surprised at how much attention the Duke case received, because I was focused on the fact that the accuser in the case was black, but I missed the mark. It’s more than the races of the people involved; if the crime is perceived as involving interracial sex, something snaps in people, suddenly they perk up.

The truth of the matter is that the US is a culture obsessed with interracial sex, but nobody will say this in polite company. During the slave era and the Jim Crow era, white people spoke with repulsion and disgust at interracial sex even though many white men were routinely engaging in sexual encounters with black women. In the colorblind era, people are still obsessed with interracial sex. However, they do not publicly say, “Wow, interracial sex is: bizarre, disgusting, exciting, adventurous, morally repugnant,” and so on. That’s part of the reason nobody in the mainstream polite media is going to openly say–”Damn that negro had two white baby mama’s. He must have really been packing some heat below the belt. Why else would those white women be interested in him?” 3 Nobody is going to say, “Those white women are white trash, whores for sleeping with this black guy. They probably only did it for his big dick.” Nobody is going to say, “Why can’t these black men just take care of their kids and stopping hopping from bed to bed. Only a white women with no self esteem will get with a guy like that.” They are not saying these dispargaing comments publicly, but when they get home to their families and friends, they are saying it. When they go on line to search for interracial porn, they are thinking it. When they can leave anonymous comments on blogs, they are expressing it.

I think my traffic at Rachel’s Tavern is evidence for the American obsession with race and sex. Within the last week here are a select few searches I have received:

  • black men impregnating white women stories
  • savages on blondes
  • Biracial family pictures black and white
  • BLACK ATHLETE MARRYING WHITE WOMEN
  • Black men breeding white girls
  • black negro slave woman naked pictures
  • black women with white men in adult movies
  • differences between white and black women’s breasts
  • blacks in bed sexing
  • george lucas in love black women
  • how do you feel about interracial relationship

And this was a really slow week, I’ve gotten at least 100 searches over the past few months for “savages on blondes,” which was a popular racist pornographic website featuring black men who act like “savages” who want to have sex with white women. I mentioned that site exactly one time on this blog, and I still get people looking for it.

For some reason, people think interracial sex is exotic and daring, particularly when it involves Black men and white women and Asian women and white men. Numerous people, who clearly have no random sample to draw from believe that race is correlated with penis size. They believe race is correlated with a person’s level of sexual desire. They believe people who engage in interracial sex are deviant, rebellious, daring, gross, odd, oversexed, and ugly. But, most of them will not admit it publicly. Instead they go home and post horrible messages discussion boards. (Probably while masturbating to interracial porn.) They try their best to hide their discomfort, but most interracial couples can see how the stares they get in public often belie the facade of tolerance.

When it comes to interracial sexuality, the US is still not ready to come to grips with our racism, and the discomfort with the intersection of race and sexuality fuels the public obession with many interracial crimes.

  1. I also want to say that my heart goes out to the family of Jessie Davis and her child. I hope they are able to get justice in this case.
  2. I have a policy of not linking to organized white supremacist sites, but you can check out the big ones to see what they are saying.
  3. I don’t know if his wife is white or not, so I can’t comment on the third baby mama.

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Parting Shots / Stereohyped on 27 Jun 2007 at 5:01 pm

    […] When a crime involves victims and criminals of different races, don’t we always make it about race? [RCLCS] […]

  2. Dead in the Midwest » del.icio.us bookmarks for 06-28-2007 on 28 Jun 2007 at 7:34 pm

    […] Jessie Davis and Bobby Cutts: It?s About Interracial Sex Folks at Racialicious (tags: sex sexuality violence race/ethnicity racism women masculinity whitesupremacyculture ) […]

Comments

  1. Scott wrote:

    It seems to me that part of the reason you’re getting so much negativity from your research is because you’re going to places where there is going to be a lot of bias. I mean seriously, what else did you expect White Supremacists to say.

    Posted 27 Jun 2007 at 12:13 pm

  2. dnA wrote:

    And this was a really slow week, I’ve gotten at least 100 searches over the past few months for “savages on blondes,” which was a popular racist pornographic website featuring black men who act like “savages” who want to have sex with white women. I mentioned that site exactly one time on this blog, and I still get people looking for it.

    Porn is the subconscious of Society.

    Posted 27 Jun 2007 at 12:22 pm

  3. Rachel S. wrote:

    Scott, I didn’t just go to white supremacist sites. I read several blogs, including the comments on Terrence’s site, which you should go over and read.

    I also read AOL black voices, which is by no means an extremist site.

    You can also go over and google a website by a guy named Dan Riehl, a fairly popular conservative blogger, who has been rumored to be up for consideration as a talk show host on a cable news network (God, I hope that rumor is wrong.) I won’t supply the link to his site, but you can link to it from this post at Pandagon.

    I think you are doing a little selective reading.

    Posted 27 Jun 2007 at 12:48 pm

  4. deb wrote:

    This crime sucks on so many levels.

    What immediately caught my attention is a statistic that I couldn’t help but think about when I heard that Jessie Davis was pregnant: the leading cause of death among pregnant women is murder. So, I didn’t think there was going to be a happy ending.

    As for Bobby Cutts…. WTF! Has he been proven guilty yet? If so, d oesn’t he know that men/boyfriends are always suspects? That forensic evidence is not your friend? Did he think because OJ got away, he would too? Did he not care that this woman was the mother of his child? Did he think, “I’m Five-O, I got this!” Did he forget that there was a time, not too long ago, when black men were being lynched for so much as looking at a white women all googly-eyed?

    Yeah, the racial elements are evident, even if folks don’t want to admit to it. (Put the deniers right up there with the folks bashing Barry Bonds over his alleged steroid use.)

    And interracial sex element drives folks nuts too. Speaking of “nuts,” black men who where lynched were sometimes castrated. Guess lynch mob wanted to be sure the victim couldn’t plow any white women in the afterlife.

    And weren’t DW Griffith’s Klansmen concerned with protecting white womenhood?

    A family has lost a daughter, and a child has lost a mother. But, the fascination with interracial sex probably means that Lexington Steele videos are probably flying off the shelves!

    Posted 27 Jun 2007 at 1:17 pm

  5. Keke wrote:

    The moment I heard about this couple, I refused to go on the web, knowing exactly what I would find. I do think that race can be a factor in many news stories, as we do live in a society still grappling with issues. I knew that the story could somehow become sensationalized and not concentrate on the real tragedy. With that said, I hope that this could be a chance for the public to open up about lots of things: racism, sexism, domestic violence and other important issues.

    Posted 27 Jun 2007 at 1:25 pm

  6. michelle wrote:

    I completely agree with most of you here. Rachel, your post was insightful and timely and on point. And kudos to Deb for pointing out that the leading cause of death of pregnant women is murder. What does that say about our country?

    Listen, race is ALWAYS an issue. It might not be the biggest issue, or even one of the biggest issues, but race is the subtext and undercurrent of our American culture. I assert that as a fact. I think that race is certaintly under the surface and in the minds of most people where this murder case is concerned.

    Case in point, when Lacy Peterson was murdered and went missing, how long did it take for them to arrest Scott Petersen? Months, I repeat months, into the case. Bobby Cutts, days. Race is an issue.

    I would also like to know what evidence they have linking this man to the case? I know they arrested a friend of his for obstuction of justice (maybe as a co-conspirator to murder as well)? Will she testify against him? I have not heard one piece of evidence against him, yet. Has anyone else?

    Look, I would be dishonest if I didn’t think to myself “Just like a brother”. I am sickened at myself for this attitude, but I mean, Black men seem to be like moths to a flame when it comes to White women. What is it, my brothers? OJ, Kobe, Bobby Cutts. What are they thinking? Do they not know their history? Do they not know of the countless nameless, faceless Black men who were lynched, beaten and castrated just because the possiblity existed that they could even think about being with a White woman? And yet, Black men still just got to have that White woman. How many Black women do you know who have that same attitude toward White men. Most Black women just have to have a Black man. I know Black women who will not even entertain the notion of being with a White man. I don’t know very many Black men who have that level of loyalty where Black women are concerned.

    So, to all the Black women out there who have a non-Black man, I say BRAVA! You have a man who is free to love you, respect you and cherish you.

    I would love to know what Bobby Cutts is thinking right now.

    Posted 27 Jun 2007 at 3:43 pm

  7. LM wrote:

    …(reading michelle’s comments vis-a-vis black men and women and their relationship choices)…

    Sigh.

    Posted 27 Jun 2007 at 4:40 pm

  8. deb wrote:

    I would love to know what Bobby Cutts is thinking right now.

    “Man! I shoulda consulted OJ.”

    Sorry.

    Posted 27 Jun 2007 at 6:41 pm

  9. daisy wrote:

    A bit off-topic, but I did want to add that I don’t think the US is the only culture obsessed with interracial sex. I am about the move to a more liberal country in the Middle East; my husband and I are white and my child is black. A friend of mine who lives in the same country and whose family is similar (white parents, black kids) says that local folks are OBSESSED with the idea that she has had sex with a black man–and that her husband has apparently not figured it out!

    The blacks kids were adopted, but they don’t understand adoption. They just can’t get past this idea of this loose American woman having sex with black men.

    That doesn’t make Americans any better, of course. But we’re not the only racists, either.

    Posted 27 Jun 2007 at 7:48 pm

  10. georgia wrote:

    I disagree with the person above who said that Cutts was arrested before Scott Peterson because of race.The way the cases unfolded was very different, and it seems that in this case Bobby Cutts directed the police to the location of Jessie Davis location, unlike the Peterson case.

    I also think the last place that anyone will find meaningful discussions on line is in the vast majority of unmoderated message boards and comments sections.

    Message boards are full of racists and sexits speach. Its really the nature of annonymous postings by typical hateful losers and shouldn’t be taken as a reflection of the wider population.

    As a biracial (black/white) woman I remember being uncomfortable during my teen years when meeting people after I learned that some people in the world disaproved of interracial relationships. I have never had a bad experience and now that I’m in my twenties I don’t even think about it.

    I have also had the experience of having someone ignorantly make a somewhat racist comment in front of me. When this has happened I am generally glad that I am there to make them aware of what they have said and how it can be interpreted (I often do this humorously to diffuse the situation) and in my experience people have been open and understand why I might take offense.

    I would suggest that nobody should let white supremacy get them too worked up. As long as the groups are looked after, crimes are prosecuted and their opinions are publically reviled we are doing a good job.

    There will always be people who are extreme in their thinking and trying to reasion with them is useless. We need to start in the middle and talk about race issues with out trying to assign blame for past wrongs.

    Posted 27 Jun 2007 at 10:14 pm

  11. michelle wrote:

    Sorry LM…just sharing my opinion.

    But, back to this case…

    On what grounds have they arrested Bobby Cutts? Where is the evidence? Typically, any kind of evidence that the police have is reported over and over again in the press. So, there is no cause of death yet, no murder weapon, just motive…but is there motive? Seriously, someone please tell me what I am missing.

    I think that as it stands right now, it only strengthens the original point of this discussion. This man is being painted as a sexual predator whose victims are white women. At least two of his baby’s mamas are white. One of his baby’s mamas has spoken about how he sent her to the emergency room because he slammed her into a well. Most of the articles point to his violent behaivor, his many children and there is even an article that mentions that he may have been sexually inappropriate with his daughter. Of course, those claims have never been fully substatiated, but it is out there, and that kind of accusation is something that you never live down.

    Why is America obsessed with interracial sex and miscegenation? Is this the last mental barrier to true racial equality where our national psyche is concerned?

    And again, why is murder the leading cause of death amongst pregnant women?

    And lastly, I think this man is going to be convicted and when he convicted, he will get the death penalty.

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 3:23 am

  12. mr guy wrote:

    I call bs at the end of your post michelle.

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 3:54 am

  13. dnA wrote:

    Yeah, if anyone wants to be even more offended, you can check out Feministe. There is so much anger still in this country over interracial relationships. I believe one of the commenters on the site Jill at Feministe was writing about referred to interracial relationships as “animal husbandry”.

    So, to all the Black women out there who have a non-Black man, I say BRAVA! You have a man who is free to love you, respect you and cherish you.

    I would love to know what Bobby Cutts is thinking right now.

    Yeah, my mother is black, and she is married to a white man, and I found this comment incredibly offensive and bitter.

    While there is certainly an overwhelming discomfort America has with interracial relationships, that is changing on at least some level. Can anyone imagine a black man today being on the cover of a major newspaper with his white wife and mixed baby?

    Well, it happened with Tiger Woods yesterday and the New York Post. And he can cablinasian all he wants, he’s black to white people.

    It’s still bad out here, but it’s not like it was when my parents couldn’t travel south of Arlington, Virginia.

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 7:00 am

  14. JustEnjoyHim wrote:

    All you have to do is follow the threads on Technorati to see what hateful, misogynistic, and racist spew people are writing about Jessie Davis. Rachel is right; you don’t have to visit any white supremacist sites. Even seeing the start of those posts is enough to let me see what they’re about, including the Reihl posts.

    I live in Canton but haven’t been around the areas (courthouse and such) when the news is taking place, but you may have heard about the separatist group National Alliance coming in from another town and distributing hundreds of fliers warning about the dangers of interracial relationships. Apparently they plan on coming here as long as the trial lasts.

    This is bringing racism and white supremacists out of the woodwork. Yes, they are indeed “giddy over the case.” *sigh*

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 8:39 am

  15. Kenny wrote:

    There is no question race is bubbling under the sufrace in the Cutts case. The post by Rachel is right on. The Black male /White female pairing is still taboo in many ways. Can you imagine Denzel Washington making movie after movie with White love interests the way Halle Berry does? Bi racial or not she’s playing Black characters. I remember watching the Behind the Camera movie about “Diff’rent Strokes” last Labor day. The romance between Todd Bridges and Dana Plato was unveiled but there was no kiss. I remember thinking “maybe this is why they kept it a secret for all those years while the show was on the air”. Mind you they were on a show about inter racial harmony too!

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 10:09 am

  16. georgia wrote:

    Michelle,

    Most cases do not unfold like an episode of CSI. Most evidence presented is circumstantial.

    Bobby Cutts seems to have a history of domestic violence and has had other run ins with the law, even though he is a police officer.

    More importantly he seems to be the person who directed police to Jessie Davis body.

    Lets not try to defend him because of his race. I doubt the mother of his 10 year old would lie about the way he treated her.

    It is unfortunate that because of his race people who have racist opinions are feeling validated but it doesn’t really matter.

    There are many bad men in the world an they come in a variety of skin tones.

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 11:50 am

  17. Jinxi wrote:

    On what grounds have they arrested Bobby Cutts? Where is the evidence? Typically, any kind of evidence that the police have is reported over and over again in the press.

    Bobby Cutts not only confessed but led authorities to her body. There’s a story here.

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 12:12 pm

  18. summer wrote:

    when i saw that cutts was black, i was like “great. just friggin great. this idiot right here.” my 2nd reaction? “this fool - if he did it; doesn’t he know that the husband/bf/s.o. is always the first place they look, and his a$$ is blk?? and she’s yt? how stupid are you?”

    as for the attitudes in america concerning interracial sex, i just blogged about my former boss’ comments on interracial children that she shared in a meeting.

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 3:16 pm

  19. summer wrote:

    also, at the risk of being yelled at, (cause ya’ll scare me a lil on this blog - lol) i do want to say that i somewhat understand where Michelle is coming from, although i would preface the phrase “black men” with the word “some” when discussing the preference for “having to have” a white woman.

    i know there is some truth to that for some black men because i have actually had them express it verbally. e.g., one guy who is now a doctor said, in speaking of a black guy who only dated white co-eds, “he must be doing something right, he can get white girls.” my heart sank to hear someone of my color say that to me.

    there is no evidence that cutts was of this attitude, and i know it’s off the subject of rachel’s original post, but i just didn’t want to pretend that michelle was just completely off base. to me, it’s an honest — albeit misdirected (towards cutts, i.e.) — reaction.

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 3:41 pm

  20. Rabia wrote:

    “when i saw that cutts was black, i was like “great. just friggin great. this idiot right here.” my 2nd reaction? “this fool - if he did it; doesn’t he know that the husband/bf/s.o. is always the first place they look, and his a$$ is blk?? and she’s yt? how stupid are you?””

    Amen!

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 4:00 pm

  21. tasha wrote:

    Thank you Georgia and Jinxi, I couldn’t have said it better myself. It took the cops a lot longer for them to find Lacy’s body and build a case against Scott Peterson than it did for Bobby Cutts. I mean, really, it’s not like he was arrested before the body was found. There are lots of black men caught up in the justice system who are worthier of the sympathy. You wanna feel sorry for Cutts, think about how hard it’s going to be to find a jury of his peers when he’s finally tried, with him being a walking stereotype and all. Something tells me that Jesse and Al might sit this one out. I’m surprised no one’s brought this up yet, but the whole “interracial sex” thing is really secondary to the real focal point of this story. The Jesse Davis murder is this summer’s version of “White Girl in Peril”. Every summer for the past few years, there’s been a missing, white girl whose plight unfolds like a serial drama. It’s the news media’s version of a summer blockbuster. If you didn’t know any better, you’d swear that only young women that went missing were white. The coverage for missing women of color isn’t nearly as extensive. There was another case about a young, white girl that went missing, maybe a month ago. They caught her and her attacker on camera leaving a store before she disappeared, but her body was found and the suspect apprehended, so that case wrapped up too quickly to sustain interest for the summer. This story, because of its racial component, Cutts domestic violence record, his out of wedlock births, and stint as a police officer, has legs.

    Deb, the Barry Bonds saga isn’t really about race. It’s about schedenfreude. There are plenty of black people that have either denounced or distanced themselves from Barry, including Hank Aaron, the black man who owns that record that Bonds is chasing. Those two used to be really chummy. They even did a tv commercial together, and now when people ask Aaron whether or not he’s going to follow Bonds around the country to games to see him break the record, he talks about being too old to travel or having other things to do, giving all kinds of excuses, whereas before the scandal broke, he probably would have made every effort to be there. What about Sammy Sosa? He’s Black/Hispanic, who with the corked bat episode and doping suspicions, may also be shady, and yet Sosa doesn’t draw the same type of ire. The reason why the public seems to be giving Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, and even Jason Giambi a pass, despite being under the same type of doping suspicions has to do with how those three players courted the press and public. They always made themselves available to the media. Sosa’s reminiscent of Isaiah Thomas, in the sense that he’s always been humble and behaved like he was truly privileged to play the game. He and Mark practically saved baseball with their homerun record chase, after the strike. Giambi gets a pass because he’s seen as a non-entity, but Bonds, Bonds is about to become immortal when he breaks Aaron’s record, and the idea of a “drug cheat” receiving such an honor is upsetting to a lot of people, as it should be. McGwire’s doping suspicions didn’t come to light until after he had retired, and by then, Bonds had already broken his record. Plus Bonds wasn’t as kind to the media as McGwire or Sosa. He didn’t always give interviews and was rarely, if ever, humble, but it was tolerated because of his batting average. So when the BALCO scandal broke, the press saw an opportunity to kick this arrogant man when he was down, and they’ve been kicking him ever since, and the public has joined in. Bonds hatred is like Yankee hatred. It’s not race based but based on an issue. Yankee haters see the Yanks as the evil empire and hate the Yankees because they don’t like the size of their payroll and how the Yanks were able to buy championships the way they did, and so they take extra pleasure in all of their woes, especially in knowing that even with a veritable all-star team, they’re still below .500 this season. With Bonds, it’s about doping. The fans don’t like doping in baseball. They feel duped by revering and paying to see these players when they might be juicing. So they’ve channeled all of that disapproval into a scapegoat named Barry Bonds. Is it fair? Maybe not, but then that depends on whether or not you believe his story, but they’re not doing this to him because he’s black.

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 6:03 pm

  22. Anonymous wrote:

    michelle,

    I’m all for people expressing their opinions. I especially appreciate when they are thoughtful and help move things forward, though I understand the need for some people to rant.

    “…pointing out that the leading cause of death of pregnant women is murder. What does that say about our country?”

    Just that.

    Listen, race is ALWAYS an issue… race is the subtext and undercurrent of our American culture. ”

    Agreed. Sometimes it’s THE issue, sometimes it shades things, no pun intended.

    georgia capably addressed your comment about the Laci Peterson case compared with this one… why you asserted “race is an issue,” as if it was THE reason why Cutts was arrested sooner, I don’t know.

    As for your other questions about the case, news reports addressing them were already widely disseminated and discussed. Maybe you hadn’t seen them but I posit that you might not have been looking, though that didn’t keep you from spouting your opinions. Know the facts. Question them, yes, but know them.

    “Look, I would be dishonest if I didn’t think to myself ‘Just like a brother’.”

    Thanks for the honesty.

    “I am sickened at myself for this attitude…”

    But you are about to “justify” it? If you’re sickened at yourself, wouldn’t you address the issue?

    “…I mean, Black men seem to be like moths to a flame when it comes to White women.” What is it, my brothers? OJ, Kobe, Bobby Cutts…”

    And about 18 million other black men in American, all chasing white booty, right?

    “What are they thinking? Do they not know their history? Do they not know of the countless nameless, faceless Black men who were lynched, beaten and castrated just because the possiblity existed that they could even think about being with a White woman?”

    Nice history lesson. Do you want to say the same about almost any human activity other than “working for the master”? Reading, voting, living a “free “life? Are these things literally happening now? Are the slightly less overt racist reactions much different than the slightly less overt racist reactions to existence that many black men — and women — experience?

    “And yet, Black men still just got to have that White woman.”

    Uh, OK.

    “How many Black women do you know who have that same attitude toward White men.”

    Uh, well, I know plenty. I could match your OJ, Kobe, Bobby list. But this is the kind of generalization that just ain’t helpful.

    “Most Black women just have to have a Black man.”

    OK. I won’t deconstruct this, there are plenty of directions we could go here.

    “I know Black women who will not even entertain the notion of being with a White man.”

    I do too.

    “I don’t know very many Black men who have that level of loyalty where Black women are concerned.”

    Putting aside the “level of loyalty” part, I know plenty of black men who are interested only in being with black women.

    “So, to all the Black women out there who have a non-Black man, I say BRAVA!”

    Are you saying that black women should be lauded for disobeying your notion of “loyalty”? Or should your standard only apply to men, not to women? Understand, I don’t buy into the “loyalty” bit in the first place, but for goodness sake, if racial-gender solidarity is your thing, please be consistent about it. If you have a hard time being consistent, maybe you’ve got to examine the standard you’re trying to set.

    “You have a man who is free to love you, respect you and cherish you.” Wonderful. I think you’d say the same a woman was in a happy relationship with a black man, would you not?

    “I would love to know what Bobby Cutts is thinking right now.” OK.

    “But, back to this case… This man is being painted as a sexual predator whose victims are white women…”

    Didn’t you, michelle, just finish painting “Black men” as sexual predators if they have relationships with white women? “Moths to a flame”?

    I’m not saying that Cutts’ portrayal is flattering; you might be right that he’s being painted that way. But are you criticizing the portrayal or bemoaning the fact that you didn’t create it first?

    “At least two of his baby’s mamas are white. One of his baby’s mamas has spoken about how he sent her to the emergency room because he slammed her into a well. Most of the articles point to his violent behaivor, his many children and there is even an article that mentions that he may have been sexually inappropriate with his daughter. Of course, those claims have never been fully substatiated, but it is out there, and that kind of accusation is something that you never live down.”

    Talking just to talk, or “just sharing” your “opinion.”

    “Why is America obsessed with interracial sex and miscegenation? Is this the last mental barrier to true racial equality where our national psyche is concerned?”

    To the first, ’cause sex and race fascinate America. The two of them together, FIRE. Hence, Rachel’s piece. (I won’t even address your use of the word “miscegenation.”)

    The second, no, this isn’t “the last mental barrier to true racial equality where our national pysche is concerned.” We’d have plenty to discuss ever if sex and race somehow weren’t entangled.

    michelle, if you’ve got good stuff to say than say it. I don’t carry any special weight in this forum and maybe I’ll come off to others as unnecessarily picky. But any conversation about race is already twisted enough because of the raw material. Need you add more?

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 6:10 pm

  23. merq wrote:

    Anonymous (22):

    Your post made me glad I held my tongue/fingers this morning after reading Michelle’s post.

    Thanks for wading through the disturbing, murky views she revealed in that post. Hopefully, your words will make some sort of impact.

    If not, we could always lock her in a room with Eric Daniels.

    Posted 28 Jun 2007 at 11:44 pm

  24. LM wrote:

    Sorry… that was me at @ 22. Thanks for the kind words, merq.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 8:12 am

  25. Sombra wrote:

    “Why anti-racists must also be feminists. . .”

    Whether it is a partial-truth or a self-fulfilling myth or something else altogether, I find it excruciatingly painful to hear, as we do in these comments, (loyal) Black women angrily, accusing (traiterous) Black men of coveting white women for the sheer sake of ‘getting one.’

    Believe me, I can relate to wanting to tell people off for collunding in our oppression, but love is a two-way street. So what about women’s choices? (Black, white, Mixed-race, Indigenous, Asian. . .) Perhaps I misunderstood, but the assertion that white men are more free to love across difference seems related to, not revelatory of, the ongoing problem of focusing solely on the agency of men and lamenting the non-agency of women.

    I hear where this anger is coming from, but. . .I feel it is crucial to remind each other of the broader project, even as we validate each other’s standpoints. To cut to the chase, lurking behind the ridiculous notion of “interracial” sex is another cultural phantasm: that is, heteronormative desire which implies a hierarchy of difference when it genders bodies, polices their interactions and ensures that one (we UNERRINGLY know which one) is always on top. This is to say that the main problem with Black men loving white women in an unequal society is that in most cultures men are supposed to be superior to women.

    (If you know somewhere truly different, please send me a zipcode where I can ship my whole family’s moving boxes.)

    Mutually respectful love of any kind challenges a white supremacist framework, and any other ideology based on domination and hate. The Black man loving a white woman, however, is the most dangerous threat, because it throws all of the contradictions of an unjust, hierarchal society into stark and simultaneous relief. [We should all scream, “foul! It’s a lie. Men are not superior. White folks are not made in the image of god. Black people are not closer to monkeys in evolutionary terms. Just because I like pink. . .et cetera.”] The dangerous challenge that a Black man loving a white woman (or a white woman loving a Black man, for that matter) presents is more than merely sex per se. Rather an interracial couple, unperturbed and goodness-forbid living happily, might blur the racial lines of not only their children, but also their families, their community and well. . .there goes the One World Order!

    We all know it. Our society, our economy, our Super Power arrogance, everything is riding on Black women staying loyal to their men, while neglecting to raise their sons as feminists. (Historically, as we know, some white suffragettes started to put two and two together–”hmm, wives and slaves are both considered property under the law”–but most women of the “ruling racial class” were content, or at the very least LOYAL, and decided to stay the course. Is this what women of color are doing?)

    Unfortunately, the real substantive difference between extreme racists and ourselves, is that they are actively advocating the society that they wish to live in CONSTANTLY, they have a very clear picture of what it should look like, and they wield the most dangerous weapon of mass psychological terror in existence: the violent, murderous Black man! (We must concede that they do sometimes exist; but we can fight the system that produces them.)

    In short, for the many of us who seek change, we find that every single generation is forced to confront sexism (and the racism that it upholds) and racism (and the neoimperial projects that we rely on) as if this were a new thing. As if we didn’t know that oppression begets domination, begets violence, begets war.

    (Furthermore, if this guy is a known abuser, let’s be certain to defend his human right to a fair trial and due process, not his innoncence.)

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 2:22 pm

  26. michelle wrote:

    Where to begin? It is wonderful being so vocally disagreed with, to the point where people want to lock me in a room, and throw away the key I suppose? Or just come back and see what Eric Daniels and I have managed to do to one another?

    First of all, I would like to thank Jinxi for giving me the link to the article about the case. I honestly didn’t know that he had confessed and I thought that this site was also for getting answers to questions. I didn’t realize that asking honest questions was not allowed. My mistake and it won’t happen again. But thanks Jinxi. Also, other than his confession I just thought that perhaps they had more details or physical evidence of his guilt or what exactly happened that horrible day. I guess I was the only one curious about that. I do not think that I was defending Bobby Cutts in any of my posts. I believe that I was asking legitimate questions about the case. I heard the little boy Blake talked about seeing his Mommy in the rug, etc. I heard about the pool of bleach, etc. I guess I thought that perhaps there was something else out there. It was an honest question Georgia, and I know that most cases don’t unfold like an episode of CSI.

    Secondly, I do think that in light of the original statement in the original post,

    I’m not here to offer any opinions on the particulars of the case1 , but I do want to talk about the media coverage of the case…

    pointing out the differences between the Petersen case and the Cutts case is valid. Apparently, it is not. I realize that the two cases are different; however Bobby Cutts was always a suspect. Scott Petersen was not a suspect until later in the case. I realize that the two cases have unfolded very differently, but when Rachel wrote “Interracial crimes make big sensational news stories, but crimes that involve interracial sexuality arouse the deepest passions of American bigotry” I thought that the fact that Scott Petersen was seen as victim initially, and Bobby Cutts as a suspect initially, that since we were discussing the intersection of race and sex that the difference in the handling of the two men was a pertinent point. Apparently, it was not. In addition to the differences in the Petersen case, the media coverage of this case has focused on his violent and deviant behavior. Since Rachel said that she wanted to talk about the media coverage of the case, I thought talking about the media coverage of the case would be appropriate, but apparently, it is not.

    It is my opinion that Black women have a deeply ingrained sense of loyalty to Black men. It would be great to figure out where that comes from, why it is there, what it means and how we can channel that loyalty into more constructive avenues, other than waiting for a perfect Black man to come along. It is my opinion that the same unquestioning loyalty does not exist within the majority of Black men in the same way. In fact, many Black women during the feminist movement felt that they could not be a feminist and work for the cause of Black people. Many felt isolated during the civil struggles of the sixties and seventies because they did feel this loyalty to their people and there were no forums where they could honestly and openly discuss the division within themselves. They seemed forced to choose, and many of them choose to align themselves with the cause of Black people. Apparently, however I was wrong in thinking that Black women do have a heightened sense of loyalty to Black men and that we would finally get a chance to dissect the issue.

    The original post also stated
    “The truth of the matter is that the US is a culture obsessed with interracial sex, but nobody will say this in polite company…In the colorblind era, people are still obsessed with interracial sex. However, they do not publicly say, ‘Wow, interracial sex is: bizarre, disgusting, exciting, adventurous, morally repugnant,’ and so on.”

    In my opinion, that includes everybody, all of us. When Rachel refers to the US culture, I don’t think she meant just White America. I think she meant all of America. (However, I am sure LM and everyone else will take issue with that opinion as well.) Black men are obsessed with interracial sex. Black women are obsessed with interracial sex. Rachel says that people won’t say this in polite company and they won’t publicly share their opinions on interracial sex. I unfortunately shared my opinion in public that there is an obsession with White women that exists with the collective psyche of the Black male. Does that mean all Black men? No. But I do believe in the notion of the collective psyche of a people. In my opinion and in my experience, I have known many Black men who only date White women, or who have a very strong tendency to date non-Black women. It seems that I know many more Black men who have this tendency and are very vocal about their preference for White women. Maybe I am the only person who has ever heard the term “snow bunny”. Because I probably am, let me explain it as it was explained to me. A “snow bunny” is a slang term that Black men…sorry, some Black men, use to refer to White women. When a Black man dates or has sex with a White woman, it is called “hitting the slopes”. I am probably the only one who thinks it is an interesting and significant cultural phenomenon that Black men (I am speaking about the collective) have a term (actually there are a few others that I have heard as well) to describe a whole group of women. And in light of the discussion of race and sex, I find it very meaningful indeed. I am not aware of any term used to describe White men that is as prolific amongst Black females as the term “snow bunny” another related monikers. In my opinion, this highlights a crucial difference between Black men and Black women as a whole. It would be great to talk about those differences. It would be great to really have a discussion about things that I things are very hard for people to talk about without attacking one another, but I guess not. I think that this is something that should be highlighted and discussed openly. But I guess I was terribly wrong. Richard Wright’s “The Long Dream” talks about these issues with an emotional resonance that is really profound, much like his descriptions of Bigger Thomas’ ambivalence toward White women. Only in The Long Dream, he takes it much further. I point it out because I am not the only person on the planet who sees that Black men (again, I am speaking about the collective) have an emotionally and psychologically complex relationship to White women (again, I am speaking about the collective).

    I do recognize that when I made the comment about Black women having a non-Black man who is free to love them I should have provided a better context for what I was thinking. I did not mean to offend you dnA. However, I am not bitter or angry. I do not think that White men are more available to love than Black men. I just meant that for Black women who have overcome their own images and fetters where relationships are concerned, who are in relationships based on mutual love and respect with men or women who are not Black, then I think those women should be applauded for being open to the possibility of love coming in many different forms and shapes and sizes. It takes a very big person to overcome old mindsets. (Go ahead, Georgia, LM and everyone else…this a perfect time to take a shot.)

    At the risk of insulting you Sombra, I would have to say that I agree with many of your points. You said that “Mutually respectful love of any kind challenges a white supremacist framework, and any other ideology based on domination and hate. The Black man loving a white woman, however, is the most dangerous threat, because it throws all of the contradictions of an unjust, hierarchal society into stark and simultaneous relief.” And I completely agree. I would just add that there are some Black male/White female relationships that are not based upon love, but upon the idea that White people are superior and that White women are women who should be coveted, cosseted and define manhood. When a relationship (of any kind) is a choice that is born out of a free and clear decision and not in response to or because of a “white supremacist framework” then it does have then power to threaten an “unjust society”.

    Finally, Summer…it was incredibly brave of you to post your comment. I don’t want any heat to come your way, but for what it is worth, I think it was very brave of you to say that I had a bit of a point.

    Posted 29 Jun 2007 at 9:11 pm

  27. S wrote:

    Soooo typical. As soon as I read michelle’s post I knew she would get verbally chopped down into a million pieces a few times over. Obsession with interractial sex? How about obsession with QUICKLY checking the person who shares a not-so-good opinion about bk men/wht wm and mentions good wishes for bk wmn in the same post? I’ve noticed that trend here and else where. What’s the deal with that, I don’t understand?

    TASHA - OMG, you hit the nail in the head! I just noticed the White Girl In Peril blockbuster trend. That is suuuch a great point. I have no doubt that the families of these imfamous missing women are greatful for the coverage as it does assist in the search, but I wonder if any of them have noticed the trend and if any of them feel somewhat used by it.

    I too, thought “Here we go” when I found out Cutts was black. It does not help the stereotype that black men are violent and selfish, and it certainly doesn’t help the stereotype that black men like to runover white women. But when I heard the violent aligations of his past, I thought, “It’s over for you, buddy!” I suspected him because I knew about the leading cause of death of pregnant women, and because I have subconsciously allowed myself to be trained that the first supsect in these cases are ALWAYS the father of the child, or the significant other (even if he is NOT the father).
    Some of you asked for a motive? Are you serious? Even if Cutts didn’t have any children out of wedlock, if his criminal history is true, the motive doesn’t have to be clear for him to be accused. It just needs to line up in his lengthy criminal timeline.
    And I do agree with a poster above who said we shold not jump to defend someone just because of his race. It’s a hard habit to break if you are black, considering our history in this country and the almost-daily need to come to the defense of a falsey accused black citizen. Either way, I don’t think much of this coverage has to do with Cutts being black, although I do agree that it would not have as much airtime if Davis wasn’t white.

    I also think that the media glossed RIGHT OVER the (assumed) fact that Cutts had a substantial criminal history (and accusations) yet he was still admitted to and retained by the Police Department, even after a spokesman clearly stated that the department runs extensive background searches, character assessments, etc. This really makes the department look stupid. And I know this may sound harsh, but when women engage in intimate relationships with men who THEY KNOW have a shakey history, it makes them look stupid too. (not saying that this was the case here - as his 1st baby mama stated that she quickly ended the relationship after Cutts showed his true colors)

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 6:49 am

  28. S wrote:

    oops, I thought my origianl post was lost because I didn’t see it - SORRY!

    Somba, nice post!

    Has anyone heard any news about Cutt’s friend? How did she get chared with obstruction???

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 7:37 am

  29. squidfly wrote:

    # 6 michelle:

    you seem a little over the top with your assessment here. Do take more care when using the definitive “ALL”

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 11:53 am

  30. squidfly wrote:

    ..and Michelle, there many Black women involved with white men…but not “ALL”

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 11:54 am

  31. squidfly wrote:

    Michele: read Before The Mayflower; A History of Black America, by Lerone Bennett, JR.
    You will find that Blacks, whites, Native Americans, and Asians have been “Loving” each other since this country was stumbled upon.

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 12:11 pm

  32. squidfly wrote:

    The issue is that people fetishize Inter-racial couples, why is that? Is it something much deeper and troubling within that individuals Physche than the defense of all Black women or all Asain men, or whoever the wounded group happens to be?
    Keep mixing gene’s…

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 12:24 pm

  33. squidfly wrote:

    Michelle how do you feel about White Males and Asian Women?
    Nationwide over 60% of inter -racial relations are between White men and Asian Women.

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 12:37 pm

  34. squidfly wrote:

    I support inter-racial love. It takes a lot of courage to marry/chose someone that your family, friends or colleagues, may not aprrove of.
    However the reality is, at the end of day, you still have to deal with that other human sitting opposite you to make it work, wether your gay, straight, Black, white, Asian, Hispanic, Native…

    Posted 30 Jun 2007 at 1:23 pm

  35. michelle wrote:

    Hey squidfly….I don’t know if you noticed but I have taken a lot of heat here and really I can stand it, I can..loving it actually. What I can’t stand is being misquoted and purposefully misunderstood. Here are two of your posts,verbatim….
    1. you seem a little over the top with your assessment here. Do take more care when using the definitive “ALL”
    2…and Michelle, there many Black women involved with white men…but not “ALL”

    First of ALL, one of the few times I used the “definitive ‘all’ ” was when I wrote….

    In my opinion, that includes everybody, all of us. When Rachel refers to the US culture, I don’t think she meant just White America. I think she meant all of America.

    Squidfly, that was in response to the original post and you took the use of the word ALL completely and totally of context.

    And second of ALL, I never said that ALL Black women are dating white men. I never said that ALL Black men are dating white women.

    People have said some not so nice things to me and about me, but get it right, squidfly. Say something like, “I would like to lock her in a room with Bobby Cutts and see what happens”, or “Your sick and totally unfounded rantings and ravings have no place in our civilized discussion”. But please, if you are going to try and insult me, just get it right.

    And of course I don’t have a problem with White men who choose to date Asian women. I mean, if I mentioned that SOME Asian women have a small tendency to be objectified and exoticized by SOME White men, I would probably be called all sorts of names.

    Oh, and I read “Before the Mayflower” and “loving” each other in the absence of the social construct of race is a beautiful thing. But, squidfly, we do have the social construct of race and our entire culture is built around it (no offense to those parts of our culture that are not affected by race). We are talking about the post-colonial (or post-Mayflower) paradigm that we find ourselves in at the present moment. Rather, that is ALL I was talking about.

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 1:24 am

  36. georgia wrote:

    I guess I take offense to the idea that interracial relationships are some sort of spectacle because I am the product of an interracial relationship.

    I’m sorry Michelle that you felt attacked, it has happened to me on message boards, I know its not fun. I disagreed with you but I don’t think you should go away. However I did feel as though you were giving Bobby Cutts more slack than he deserved, when there are other blacks that we aren’t talking about that are more deserving like Genarlow Wilson.

    I also don’t think that it serves whites, blacks, hispanics, asians… well to remain isolated from one another and perpetuate the idea that people should be loyal to their own race.

    Honestly the idea that we still talk about race as though it is some kind of a concrete biological fact bothers me a great deal. Particularly when I see “black” people who are very fair skinned and who clearly come from a mixed background of some sort who don’t seem to talk about it.

    I just wish people would talk about the fact that Americans of all ethnicities have been intermixing since they arrived here. We are more alike than we are different.

    Sorry this wasn’t really about the Davis case.

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 2:21 am

  37. mr guy wrote:

    “Sorry this wasn’t really about the Davis case.”

    It’s about black men vs black women.Or to be more specific, it’s about black men and white women, and why people have(or may not have that many) issues with it.So this is very much about the davis case in the end.

    “Soooo typical. As soon as I read michelle’s post I knew she would get verbally chopped down into a million pieces a few times over. Obsession with interractial sex? How about obsession with QUICKLY checking the person who shares a not-so-good opinion about bk men/wht wm and mentions good wishes for bk wmn in the same post?”

    I have to agree.The above is the same way.Just like you always have to have some people who always have a positive opinion, and complain when someone goes against their positive view, and check anyone who doesn’t, you always have others who have a negative opinion about the subject.Then complain when someone goes against their negative opinion.

    It’s the circle of life my friends!!I’m part of it and so are you!!

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 10:34 am

  38. michelle wrote:

    Georgia,

    I did feel attacked, but I don’t mind. I get it. I said some very inflammatory things. But I am big girl and really, I can take. Squidfly pissed me off, but other than that, I actually enjoyed the debate/attack.

    If you will indulge me, I would like to say that my questions about the case were simply honest questions. Since you didn’t see my face or hear my vocal inflections, most people assumed that they were rhetorical questions aimed at defending Bobby Cutts. I thought that people on this site would be open to sharing info and facts, and people assumed that I was just speaking out of ignorance. Ironically enough, I was, but trying to get some education on the case. Instead I got an education on the difference between CSI and real life…which was also quite helpful.

    Lastly, I am very well aware that race is a social construct. I don’t want Black women (or anyone else) to be loyal to their “race”, but I think that IN GENERAL there are SOME Black women (NOT ALL) who feel a deeply ingrained sense of loyalty and dare I say love for SOME, NOT ALL Black men. I was pointing it out to bring it to light so we could all talk about it. Of course we are more alike than we are different. Of course we all just want to get along. Of course love is beautiful, no matter what color it is. Of course! But we were not debating those things. A woman posted a piece and that piece was a point of depature to a discussion about some tough issues. Again, wasn’t that the point of the piece? (Honest question alert!)

    As hard as it will be for some of you to believe, I have received a formal education beyond the fifth grade and I read things other than Essence, Ebony and People. I thought that this site was a discussion about things as they are, in conjuction with the way we want them to be, or are shaping them to be. I don’t want to live in a society where race is an issue, but I do. I would love for all the races to just start mixing up and blurring the lines to the point where nobody can tell what anybody is…but in my gut I feel that even if that happened, there would still be “Black” people…there would still be an “other”, a sub-group of humans that we would somehow manage to qualify as “non-human”. Based on skin color? I don’t know. Based on some external marker? Perhaps.

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 7:48 pm

  39. LM wrote:

    michelle,

    Thanks for laying out for your views in more detail. A lot of what you wrote in your third comment made sense to me.

    I don’t look for opportunities to take shots at people. You should expect, as I do when I write, that other commenters will pay attention to what you’re writing and respond if it raises their hackles.

    Sometimes it’s legitimate difference, sometimes it’s poor expression of ideas that we may share. If anything I get more frustrated at the latter.

    I look forward to your comments on other posts.

    Posted 01 Jul 2007 at 8:55 pm

  40. squidfly wrote:

    #37. generalization =racism

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 10:48 am

  41. squidfly wrote:

    Michelle you seem very touchy on this subject. I didn’t insult you. If you can, respond to my # 34 post, only if you want to that is, after all, choice is American.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 10:52 am

  42. Sombra wrote:

    I assume that most of us take what we type into the little tiny comment box seriously and “to heart.” Yet, this is very slippery discourse (about race) and (again I assume that) many here are hoping that we might make headway as a group. This hope for collective illumination is why we attack problematic ideas NOT people. (In this sense, I didn’t quite understand why I might be insulted when M decided to expand further using some of the issues I raised. Not to insult you, but I assume that we are all in a process of active revision and maybe you are responding to an aspect of online culture that I hope not to internalize and perhaps we can change here! Of course, real change is incremental and slow. )

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 11:50 am

  43. squidfly wrote:

    Black Male sexuality is always observed from the sweaty panic stricken anxiety of the auction block, throw in White Women and you have the Meta-Sexual fear of the collapse of Western Civilisation.

    The terror of Black male ertoticism is viewed through “The White Male Gaze”
    Every movie from Birth of a Nation to Sahara confirms that.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 2:17 pm

  44. squidfly wrote:

    eroticism…sorry

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 2:18 pm

  45. michelle wrote:

    LM…

    It’s all good. No worries. I will toughen my skin and jump back into the discourse, armed and ready. However, I want to call your attention to the following

    Merq says

    Thanks for wading through the disturbing, murky views she revealed in that post. Hopefully, your words will make some sort of impact. If not, we could always lock her in a room with Eric Daniels.

    And then you say:

    Sorry… that was me at @ 22. Thanks for the kind words, merq.

    Okay, HONEST QUESTION ALERT…

    Since I am new to chat rooms, that seemed a little personal to me. Sombra, is that something that I just gotta get used to?

    Sombra, I was being a little (okay, a lot)sarcastic when I said I didn’t want to offend you by agreeing with you. I thought your post was devastingly written and I was eager to see where it lead us. Since I am way left in my opinions, viewpoints and expression, I assumed that you would feel as disgusted with me as dnA, LM, Merq, Georgia, etc. I was being defensive and frankly, snide and that is just not helpful. I’m sorry. Will you accept my apology?

    Speaking of your post, I would like to discuss whether or not SOME Black men also wage a silent war with themselves over their own sexism, even as they fight against racism. Since SOME Black women are having a similar battle with feminism, where does that leave us? There was a link to a post about this very subject…I just can’t remember what the link was. I believe that Sombra was correct in pointing out racism and sexism need each other to survive, especially within America’s version of “a white supremacist framework.” Could confronting sexism on an idividual level, and dealing with the fear of embracing feminism, provide our generation with a power that may have eluded generations before us?

    And squidfly, I could not have been more clear with you in my post about why you hit a nerve with me. Since you insist on selectively ignoring what I write, I will respond to what you said on #34 by repeating what I wrote on #26.

    “I just meant that for Black women who have overcome their own images and fetters where relationships are concerned, who are in relationships based on mutual love and respect with men or women who are not Black, then I think those women should be applauded for being open to the possibility of love coming in many different forms and shapes and sizes. It takes a very big person to overcome old mindsets.”

    I think more than adequately addresses how I feel on the subject of love.

    And squidfly, you did insult me. You insulted me by misquoting me and deliberately taking my words out of context. That makes me very touchy indeed. I would prefer to be vehemently disagreed with based on things I actually said, if you don’t mind.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 3:42 pm

  46. LM wrote:

    michelle,

    merq thanked me for doing the work of responding to your first two comments, and I thanked him for recognizing my effort (and to acknowledge authorship) — nothing more than that.

    I don’t purport to speak for merq, but to my mind you’ve successfully removed yourself as punchline to his joke.

    I will do my best to encourage a positive environment in this space, same as many other people here (led by the estimable CVK). If it occasionally involves a forceful comment, so be it — and if it involves some encouragement, so be it. Both are “personal,” but in both cases my goal is to address the quality of ideas, not to demonize or lionize the commenter.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 5:48 pm

  47. michelle wrote:

    Agreed LM. But can we also agree that saying that a poster should be locked in a room with a complete stranger (a stranger who has said that he has no compassion for women of any color, or something like that) is a little off topic and does not address the “quality of my ideas” but rather is an attack on my person? Maybe just a little LM?

    I really did welcome this vigorous, heated and intense exchange and look forward to more. It is a valuable resource to be able to have these sorts of debates. I think the reason we don’t have them more often is because it does get personal and you can’t argue like this with a neighbor, in-law, friend, etc. (At least, let me speak for myself). But we can speak like this with each other and take the comments into our daily lives, mulling them over, sharing them and thereby, furthering our own self-discovery. I don’t know you Merq or LM , I mean, I might, who knows.

    You know interestingly enough I will be honest (I have to chuckle at that), because I saw both you and merq as men, I think I was even more threatened by the remark. As a woman it made me feel dismissed and irrelevant. Admittedly, in my original post I was very colloquial in my self-expression. However, I bring that up because isn’t that a perfect interpersonal exchange that perhaps highlights what we were speaking about originally? Does this cyberspace discussion give us some small insight into male-female interactions? Perhaps not, but just a thought. And I am not accusing you and merq as being sexist!!!!!! I am just trying to, in the immortal words of Sombra, “make head way as a group”.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 9:02 pm

  48. georgia wrote:

    Michelle,

    Thanks for your response. I didn’t and still don’t think that you are uneducated or that you should not voice you opinions here.

    I reread you 2nd post and realized that I could have read you comments differently. I guess I was just really upset becuase your comments reminded me of the kind of typical apologist comments. (not that you are an apologist)
    I’m glad you are still commenting. I actually think that this is one of the better sites for commenting. On Feministing a thread I was commenting on (and was of the minority opinion) was shut down prematurely becuase they didn’t like where it was going.

    I think I took offense becuase I’m sick of seeing women and girls victimized and nothing being done about the causes.

    Everytime these kinds of murders happen the media focuses on it like a freak occurence or they scape goat other things (like steroids in the Chris Benoit case.)

    When will we collectively talk about the fact that many women (of all races) are still being victimized by their partners (of all races)?

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 8:14 am

  49. squidfly wrote:

    Michelle:

    I didn’t quote you out of context, as the core of your argument was a Generalization of Black men. I felt your comment was overreaching.
    Black Men and White Women will always be attracted to each other, that’s just the way it is.
    I mean who wrote the rules?

    I know over a dozen Inter-racial relationships between Black Women and White Men, yet they never come under the scrutiny of the Visa V…
    To quote you … “I just meant that for Black women who have overcome their own images and fetters where relationships are concerned, who are in relationships based on mutual love and respect with men or women who are not Black, then I think those women should be applauded for being open to the possibility of love coming in many different forms and shapes and sizes. It takes a very big person to overcome old mindsets.”

    I think you have a double standard here.

    Sexism and Racism co-exsists for Black Men.

    “I Have a Dream”… of seeing a Black Male as the -Prime Time-Bachelor.

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 11:53 am

  50. michelle wrote:

    You know what squidfly, I am just going to politely say that I have no idea what you are talking about. I think that I have been clear and you think that you have been clear. Yet, I still don’t know what you are talking about. I think there is a big difference in generalizing a group of people and talking about the collective pshyce of a people based on a common experience. I have been clear about that in many of my previous posts.

    And didn’t you just generalize Black men by saying, “Black Men and White Women will always be attracted to each other, that’s just the way it is.” Is that not overreaching? Or is that is just a fact of life as you see it?

    Have you asked every single one of those Black women that you know if there was ever a moment, however brief, however dark, where they questioned the fact that they were with a White man, whether they experienced some inner turmoil, questioned their decision, thought twice about their choice? Maybe you know those women very well, all their intimate thoughts and longings, and can speak on their behalf, or maybe you don’t have a clue?

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 2:36 pm

  51. michelle wrote:

    Georgia,

    I think we both agree that violence against women and young children is the sign of an illness within our society. Violence against women and children is a sign of a primitive and unevolved society. It sickens me. On that we agree. It should be talked about everyday, until the day when it stops. In the span of what, three weeks, two women and two children have been murdered. It begs the question, what is to be done to stop it?

    On another note, you are right, this is a great site and it is a very positive presence.

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 2:45 pm

  52. michelle wrote:

    The Brutal Truth: Hip-Hop and Black Love - All Hip Hop

    That is the link that I was talking about earlier. It is on the homepage of Racialicious.

    Posted 03 Jul 2007 at 2:58 pm

  53. squidfly wrote:

    Michelle this is your hang up, not mine. My mother happens to be one these women. As long as they are happy, that’s all tha matters, life is difficult enough as it is. I refuse to indulge in fear based tactics of the “What about the children crowd” All of the women that I know, are smart independent, Black women, who understand, the complexity of life and love and willing to engage anyone on the subject of race, and they are very aware who they are, so now your being insulting.
    Michelle you sound like an Essentialist and a regressionalist.
    You cannot control what people do. It’s idiotic and tiresome to believe that who we love dertermines our Point of View or this narrow definition of Blackness. The one thing that all the women I mentioned “GET” is that no matter who they are with, they are Black women living in a white hegemonic culture… read Lorraine Hansberry’s work, or Alice Walker, Whoopi, Nell Carter, Diana Ross,Iman, are they less Black. It’s the 21st Century Michelle, welcome…nuff said.

    Posted 05 Jul 2007 at 12:51 pm

  54. michelle wrote:

    I am so glad that Nell Carter wrote a book before she passed on. I didn’t know that. I will have to find it. I loved Gimme A Break.

    Posted 05 Jul 2007 at 1:32 pm

  55. squidfly wrote:

    I wish you love and peace Michelle.

    Posted 05 Jul 2007 at 4:21 pm

  56. Ahsatana wrote:

    I am a latecomer in posting a comment so, maybe nobody cares anymore, but here’s what I thought as I read this thread.

    In response to what Michelle said, way at the top, “What are they thinking? Do they not know their history? Do they not know of the countless nameless, faceless Black men who were lynched, beaten and castrated just because the possiblity existed that they could even think about being with a White woman?” I think that’s part of the attraction/thrill for some. That it used to be taboo, and that white women were once forbidden fruit.

    In response to Summer’s statements…It makes me sad that some black men view white women as status symbols and trophies - a sign that they have arrived or they have made it, an upgrade, as it were. This attitude disrespects, demeans, and degrades us all. Black women, white women, all women and the men who “acquire” them.

    Sadly this attitude is prevalent. (Although by no means characteristic of all, I do believe what Michelle said about collective psyche. Why did most people in some cultures fear certain things, let’s say snakes or mythological creatures like dragons, while others revere them as protectors and bringers of good fortune? Collective psyche.)

    But , I digress. I was saying that the attitude of non-black woman as upgrade SEEMS especially prevalent among sports stars, actors, professionals and entrepreneurs - successful black men who are in the public eye. And this perpetuatates the idea that a white woman is evidence of having “made it.” It really seems this way when a black man leaves the black wife of 5 or 10 years or more for a woman of another race.

    This happens to women of other races too(they get left after their husband “makes it”). Hence the book/movie/phrase, “The Starter Wife.” But women of other races are typically abandoned for younger and/or perhaps prettier women of the same race. This seems to be less often the case among high-profile black men.

    Anonymous commenter #22/LM had some valid points that I have to respect, even though I don’t necessarily agree with them. I won’t decontruct or offer rebuttal or go into why I understand Michelle’s viewpoint even though I don’t agree with everything she said either. But I have to point out this error in your logic/argument.

    Michelle did not say or imply that she thought black men were sexual predators. Not even by accident or mistake.

    The phrase/anaolgy “moth to a flame” is not indicative of a predatory relationship in either direction. The moth is not a predator, nor is the flame. The flame just “is”. It burns unaware of the moth. The moth is fatally, instinctively attracted to the flame. The moth is doomed if it gets to close and still it cannot help itself.

    The moth does not prey on the flame and flame does not intend to draw the moth in to certain death. I understood Michelle to mean that a SOME black men are inexplicably drawn to white women and frequently behave in self-destructive ways after they are in relationships with them.

    Yes, people reading this post later on could go on to say that white women are not as innocent as the flame analogy suggests and on and on the argument goes. True, SOME white women are aware of the mysterious power they have over SOME black men, and they take advantage of it, but I do not believe that MOST are.

    Even so, to me that is not really any different from young women or beautiful women marrying rich men or old men for wealth, status, or security. There are all sorts of ways people of both sexes manipulate and exploit each other.

    And it (this manipluation/exploitation/acquisition) is not indicative of most interracial relationships. At least no moreso than it is in all relations between men and women. There are thousands upon thousands of individual reasons white women choose to be with black men, and I choose to believe that many of them start with love and/or attraction, even if the relationships do take bad turns or get more complicated along the way. Even if SOME ARE users, whether they are groupies or college students trying to assert themselves or anger their parents.

    And I know I got carried away, but I just couldn’t let that statement go. Anonymous/LM got it twisted. Michelle was NOT calling black men predators.

    Both of you had good comments overall. I enjoyed the debate. I come from a line of devil’s advocates. I appreciate looking at a debate from both sides, (it’s rather like an excting tennis match) but that is precisely why I have to call people out on glaring flaws in logic. (Sometimes.)

    Well said, Sombra!

    I changed my mind. I said wasn’t going to post about why I understand where Michelle was coming from, but I have to say that I agree with Michelle in this way: when I first heard about the story, I never heard any evidence either. And I took issue with that.

    If they were going to spend so much time covering the story and splashing his image across the screen and telling us how high the bail was set, etc., then I felt like the media also had a responsibility to tell us why there was so much certainty that he had done it (or that his speedy arrest and extremely high bail were justified). It was a disservice to everyone to leave out those facts, because it allowed (or left no choice) for people on all sides of the issue to focus on race.

    Posted 10 Jul 2007 at 11:30 am

  57. michelle wrote:

    Ahsatana…

    You know I was just sitting here thinking about how much I miss rigorous debate. And while this website has provided that I was thinking that maybe I was either much less articulate than I thought, or my opinions were so far afield of what my contemporaries believe, that I was indeed wasting my time.

    While I am sure you didn’t take your time to post your piece simply to make my day, you did. When LM claimed that I saw all Black men as sexual predators because of my moth to a flame reference, I really wanted to repsond but simply couldn’t muster up the words, given my very lengthy postings.

    Again, I know I said things that not everyone would agree with, and perhaps no one else will read your post but you and me, but, it is nice to know that I am not the only one who believes in the idea of a “collective psyche” or that there are interracial couples that exist for what they can do for one another and not love, just like an older man and a younger woman. People fall in “love” for many reasons, and when we break those reasons down, often times we find that it really has nothing to do with “love” (in a more literal sense of the word) and more to do with their personal histories playing themselves out in the arena of romantic relationships (there is a great book about this called “Getting the Love you Want”).

    In any event, I think you are right and most people have moved on. But, I still think that people are very uncomfortable with talking about interracial relationships in a critical manner. It is as if we are attacking something sacred. Some people feel like ALL interracial relationships exist as a testimony to love overcoming hate. To suggest that not all interracial relationships should be seen as such is tantamount to heresy within circles such as these, it seems.

    Someone mentioned Tiger Woods and his new family being on the cover of People as an example of how much we have progressed. I am sorry, but Tiger Woods is NOT an example of progress, in that sense. I could go and on about why, but I don’t think that Tiger Woods and his wife should be an example of love being the only reason why two people of different racial backgrounds find each other. It does seem that athletes in particular, but also SOME Black men with a certain level of education, wealth, fame or “success” seem to be more attracted to women who are not Black. It seems incredibly naive to think that every last one of those relationships is simply about love, actually.

    In any event, I agree with you on some of your points. Yes, Sombra’s post was great. Thanks for chiming in.

    Posted 11 Jul 2007 at 11:45 pm

  58. LM wrote:

    Ahsatana, my head is spinning but I get what you’re saying. My interpretation of that section of michelle’s comments does look a bit overboard these weeks later. I’m especially open to that revision because of previous follow-up from michelle.

    michelle, you know I pay even more careful attention than usual to your comments because of our exchange here. That’s meant positively — I appreciate that you’ve backed up and clarified your opinions. Even if I don’t agree with everything I like the whole of what I’ve seen.

    Posted 18 Jul 2007 at 7:47 pm

  59. michelle wrote:

    LM,

    I have a great deal of respect for most of the men and women on this site who take the time to share their thoughts and passions, you in particular. I am pleased, tickled pink actually, to receive a compliment from you!

    Posted 19 Jul 2007 at 1:17 am

  60. Von Stucker wrote:

    I would say, living overseas that most other non-western people are even more obsessed with interracial topics. Apparently they think it is completely unnatural and only over sexed people are interested in it. I lived in S.Korea for three years and it was amazing how ignorant and racist those people are. As one korean told me, “blacks aren’t really human, and women that marry them are just sluts who want pleasure” And I was told this with a straight face as if this was common knowledge.

    I think a lot of the underlying fear comes from the concept of “race preservation” of, “Oh my god, people who look like me won’t continue if this keeps up!”

    Posted 21 Aug 2007 at 9:02 am

  61. lm wrote:

    “Can anyone imagine a black man today being on the cover of a major newspaper with his white wife and mixed baby?”

    dnA:

    Seal and Heidi Klum.

    We don’t have to imagine it.

    It certainly wasn’t her main point, but I can see this as a corollary of what Michelle was getting at.

    Posted 06 Feb 2008 at 9:28 pm

  62. anirritatedminority wrote:

    In Canada, the media is proclaiming the rise of interracial marriages, I guess in an effort to show how “progressive” we are. Yet if you are a person of colour, you will always be reminded of this and you will still get disapproving looks by certain types while going about your daily business. Go figure.

    http://www.cbc.ca/cp/Home+Family/080402/U040221AU.html

    Posted 04 Apr 2008 at 11:53 pm

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