Craigslist Personals: Desperately Seeking Diversity Training

by Racialicious special correspondent Wendi Muse

I’ve always liked reading personal ads. Even when I was a little girl, I would check out the back of the paper in hopes of finding a boyfriend for my widowed mom, and in the meantime, made an attempt to figure out what was going on in the minds of grown-ups as they searched for someone with whom to live “happily ever after.” There were certain acronyms and terms used in the ads that I didn’t quite understand at a young age (i.e. NSA: no strings attached or BBW: big beautiful woman), but for the most part, I thought I had a handle on what I was taking in at my elementary school reading level. It wasn’t until I became a bit older that I began to notice an interesting trend: personal ads are riddled with messages, some more subtle than others, on how people feel about race, ethnicity, and nationality.

With the emergence of the internet, I abandoned the paper and began perusing online ads, some of which read more like military code than personal descriptions: “SWF BBW in NYC seeks 30 – 35 y.o. D&D free S or D H/W/B/A/M for NSA BSDM ASAP in area codes 10003, 100019, and 10011. You must host. Pics? STR.” While these types of ads make virtual bulletin boards appear cluttered, others are well-written, funny, romantic, and/or so outlandish that they are hard to ignore. Sites like Craigslist became popular resources for finding any and every thing, from apartments and pets to jobs and vacation rentals. The personal ads were no different. Considering the privacy feature of anonymous posting in order to protect one’s identity, the personal ads serve as e-snapshots of candid thought—inside peaks into what the people I encounter on a daily basis may think of themselves, but, more importantly, how they view the world around them.

I checked the CL personals about as often as I checked for apartments, or, in other words, every five seconds, even though I wasn’t really looking for anything heavy duty in the love department and happened to be quite satisfied with my Brooklyn 2-bedroom and its 14 month lease. Reading the personals was a perfect way to find a little piece of reality TV-esque drama without all the heavy editing, good lighting, and stage makeup. The ads were frank, the boards were frequently updated, and the content never failed to amuse me, but behind all the fun, there was an underbelly of racism. This came as a bit of a surprise considering that so many of the CL posters were young, educated, and lived in diverse and densely populated urban environments—all oft-cited demographic factors in the commonly held belief that racism is on its way out. Though politicians, institutions of higher learning, and Ward Connerly would like for us to believe that the United States is on its way to becoming a colorblind utopia, a simple examination of Craigslist personal ads proves quite the opposite.

In the world of online dating, where a user name, masked email address, and optional photo sharing means freedom to speak ones mind in complete anonymity, users frequently abandon political correctness and resort to exotification, stereotypes, and blatant racism when referring to racial/ethnic “others” in their attempts to choose a mate. While some ads include the user’s thoughts on race is more subtle ways, for example, simply stating a racial “preference” (still, arguably, a sign of prejudice), others are more obvious in their descriptions—ranging from the utilization of explicitly racist phrases or terms to describe his/her own background and/or the background of the person being sought to downright exclusion a la Jim Crow style (“No -insert race here- need apply”).

I examined New York Craigslist personals for a week straight, mainly focusing on the basic m4m, f4m, m4m, and f4f ads as the prevalence of racist epithets/hate speech was so common in the “casual encounters” and “rants and raves” sections that I’d have to write an entirely separate article to cover them. In order to find data, I simply typed in a group (i.e. “Asian,” “white,” “black”) in the search box and let the magic happen. Here were some of my favorites (organized by search term) from my early set of results (please ignore the typos…I have left them in their original form):

  • WHITE: “I’m looking for a nice all American woman…Tell me about yourself and what you do, etc. I’m not picky about age, older is fine with me. White Irish or Italian is my preference, not into Latin women. . .”

Hmmm . . . an “All-American” woman who is of Irish or Italian background. . . Can anyone say “contradiction”? Is he not just saying that “All-American” equates to white, and that “Latin women” are nowhere close?

  • MIDDLE EASTERN: “Looking for interracial fun, dating & maybe more. . . I’ve always multi-racially dated since my 1st g/f which includes black, hispanic, asian, middle eastern, islander, mediterranean. I’ve yet to meet an Indian/Pakistani-it seems they are still pretty strict in dating their own which is fine but eventually they will “modernize” lol. I’m a swm…”

I like how this guy makes dating “multiracial dating,” aka “interracial fun” sound like a hobby or a game. I wonder how much each race is worth. His statement about South Asians is equal ridiculous. It not only implies that South Asians date South Asians exclusively, but it also implies that they are the only people who have a tendency to do this, overlooking the fact that many people of varying ethnicities, races, and nationalities choose partners of the same background. Offensive much? Hell yes.

  • BLACK: “WHY A different race? My personality seems to be more compatible with white females, but I’m also attracted to Asians and European women my relationships last much longer, and I’m also attracted to them, physically and mentally. We also like a lot of the same things and tend to have similar interests in common. . . P.s. If this is your first time thinking about being with a black man, this is your chance to find out, to question your curiosity. Not all Black men are the same. I’ve heard a lot of negative stories over the years, but there are some very positive black men out here and really know how to treat a woman.”

Ok, so let me get this straight . . . not all black men are the same. Check. But all black women (and, on the opposite end, white and Asian women) are?

  • ASIAN: [title: “ASIAN AMERICAN MAN WANTS WHITE WOMAN REALLY BAD”] “I LOVE WITE GRLS . THEY ARE SO BEAUTIFUL. ITS ALL THAT MATTERS TO ME IN MY LIFE. O GOD PLEASE O GOD MAKE IT HAPPEN.”

No, the all-caps emphasis is not mine. This post was lifted straight from the site. Dear goodness, someone give him a date so he will at least stop typing in all caps.

  • LATINA: [title: “La Chica Bonita”] “Looking for pretty petite latina for attractive fit Gringo. Must like fun.Like to travel hope you do too. Would also appreciate someone to help me with my spanish.”

Does this guy want a date, a tutor, or a tour guide? I’m confused.

Some themes I noticed early on include:

1. Nicknames and food references are excellent ways to allude to race.
For example, white women are referred to as “vanilla” or “snow bunnies,” black women are referred to by a myriad of names involving “cocoa” and “chocolate,” and Latinas are almost always referred to as “spicy” or “exotic.” I haven’t seen “geisha” just yet used as a reference to Asian-American women, thank goodness, but I’m sure it’s next.

2. People like using juxtapositions a lot to imply stereotypes about certain groups.
For example, I see a lot of things like this: “I am looking for a woman who is slim, drama-free, intelligent, and who has no children. No black or Latin women, please.” Though sentences like that are not connected, you can clearly connect the dots on your own. Apparently the racism found in the “rejection” line of some posts is so common and offensive that a few members mentioned about it in their posts:

“Don’t be a SBM. No matter how clever, funny, or interesting you are once she finds out you’re black the emails stop. If you put SBM in your post you can pretty much guarantee no responses.”

“It seems that every non-asian woman have preferences for pretty much everyone except asian. Even asian women in new york city have started to steer their preference more towards non-asian males…I’d like to know why the majority of new york women are so closeminded toward us. You guys claim you aren’t racist or anything but why have such a preference? I figured since NYC was so diverse, it would be different but I guess I was wrong. I can understand if women like a guy who is tall/short, or strong/fat but based on race is kinda weird.”

3. Generalizations are a MUST.
The statements people make are often quite broad, i.e. black and Latina women are assumed to have big butts and an even bigger sex drive, Asian-American women are assumed to be thin, shy, and/or “traditional,” multiracial/ international, anyone non-white is, without a doubt, “exotic,” and white men are all wealthy and treat their women well, or, at least, they do according to these ads like these:

“Must be SINGLE and WHITE. I hope your stable financially and emotionally. I want to be with a man that’s wealthy. I aim for the stars and want nothing less than the best.”

“I am obviously a Latin woman who is very much attracted to white man. You might ask why, but the truth is that I love the way white men treat women.”

White women are also, at times, deemed “boring,” a stereotype that a friend shared has made her feel “worthless” and unfairly categorized. “I was a psych major,” she said. “I know about outgroup homogeneity bias, but is there such a thing as ingroup bias?” she questioned after being constantly viewed as yet another generic white person.

I interviewed several people about their experiences in the online dating world in addition to their feelings about exotification. One respondent informed me that when she first placed an ad on Craigslist while in college, she did so because her experiences attempting to find a date on what she describes as a “Midwest, white, upper middle class, narrow minded, slightly republican campus” were “highly ineffective.” She noticed that despite being talented, attractive, and intelligent, “making an intellectual connection or turning a friendship into a relationship seemed so difficult.” She wanted to “cast a wider net,” so she thought online dating would be the way to go. After receiving countless penis pics, sexually explicit emails, and racist responses to an innocent ad she posted, she decided that next time she looked to Craigslist as a way to find a date, she would not mention her race. When she replied to the post of a white Jewish man looking for a long term relationship with someone who had “a zest for life,” she offered a description of herself that was accurate (i.e brown eyes, black hair, college-educated), but did include her racial/ethnic background. “I wanted to bypass instant objectification, judgment, and the kind of ideas that come with race and being a black female,” she confessed. After more correspondence, the time came for picture trading. While she was anxious about how her new friend would react to her racial identity, his response was positive and they dated for a total of six months. She doubts that the outcome would have been the same if she had decided to post another ad that included her race.

A few of my friends shared similar experiences about being typecast in the dating world—online and off. “I need to get me a Latin girl…white girls just aren’t…you know….FREAKY like that!” was a recent pick-up line geared toward a Latina friend with whom I spoke. She shared that while she felt “Latin women are generally perceived as a bit more passive than Black women,” they are assumed to have just “enough aggression to make them sexually attractive.” She added that Latinas are often racially ambiguous enough in appearance to be considered acceptable in terms of beauty and are not viewed as a threat to the norms that help maintain the racial and gender-based hierarchy in America in the same way that black women are. Though such stereotypes are interpreted by some as harmless, it takes an obvious toll on those who are affected by them. A male friend recounts that, “Sometimes it’s disappointing. I want someone to be interested in me as a person and for who I am—not because of what they may have heard about my background. I think it adds pressure and awkwardness when someone finds out that I’m ‘not like the other Puerto Ricans [they] know’… It always creates the doubt on whether a person is dating you because of you or because they can view you as a commodity.”

Commodification is King on Craigslist. Considering that women and men are advertising themselves for love alongside inanimate objects, it comes as no surprise that a reliance upon stereotypes to “sell” oneself or receive attention from another is customary.

I spared you from the really bad ones, but here are some ads that I found amusing from the m4f section. I have separated ads under the same category with slashes and placed my commentary in brackets. Enjoy:

Men looking for Asian/Asian-American Women
Most of the ads I came across regarding Asian/Asian-American women could be categorized under the following keywords/categories. They were, unfortunately, entirely predicable.

  • Model minority: “Asians are the ‘other white meat’. . . most white professional white guys would never really consider marrying a black or Latin woman as there are just too many cultural differences and other irreconcilable differences. But with Asian girls it’s not quite like that. Asian cultures are for the most part civilized, they have a high degree of intelligence, and even their skin is close to us white folk.” [Wow . . . side note, notice how he refers to Asian women as “girls” and to blacks/Latinas as “women.” This is a recurring theme in a lot of the ads.]
  • I went to Asia once, so you’ll be my human souvenir: “i’m looking for an asian girl….i lived in japan for 4 yrs and can’t get enough…” [Because all Asian “girls” are the same, right? Oh and there is no difference between Asians and Asian-Americans…this distinction is hardly ever made.]
  • They’re traditional: “. . . I am white but tend to have affinity for other ethnicities (asian, indian) or non-u..s. born women. not sure why but think its that they tend to be more family oriented and just sweeter all around.” [Feminists would have a field day with this one. I’ll leave it to the readers to add their two cents.]
  • They’re so skinny: “I am attracted to asian women but many have boyish shaped bodies that don’t do anything for me. My dream girl is asian and she also has a juicy rack! Yummm. The question is do you exist?”
  • I don’t have a fetish, I swear: “I am looking to meet an Asian woman for either serious dating, romance or a ltr. This is a preference not a fetish, I’m not looking for the submissive or subservient.” / “Please don’t email me asking me ‘why Asian’, ‘do you have a fetish?’ etc, especially if the last time you held an Asian guy’s hand was when your father took you to the amusement park 20 years ago.” [Even if these men really don’t have a “fetish,” it’s unfortunate that such a stereotype follows them. They are smart to make note of how they debunk the stereotype, however, as Craigslist is no stranger to fetishization (ahem, see above), and neither, apparently, are Asian/Asian-American women as some even commented on feeling exoticized in their ads. P.S. the second user’s comment is just plain ugly!]
  • But do they speak English?: “Ideally you are sexy and fun and speak good English.” [It’s too bad this guy can’t. If he did, he’s know that his sentence was technically not written in proper English. A run-on sentence + lack of adverb use does not a good sentence make!]

Men Looking for Black Women
While some were tame, most had to do with sex and/or fulfilling some interracial fantasy with a black Jezebel. Now I understand the aforementioned interviewee’s hesitance to include her race in ads/replies. Maybe the men felt like Craigslist was the only place they could be honest, but at the end of the day, it’s still o-f-f-e-n-s-i-v-e.

  • Color contrast: “Tall six one SWM in his forties with brown hair and hazel eyes seeks sexy dark skined black female ‘white women pale in compariso’ no pun intended lol. . . I need to get my mojo back ‘it’s been awhile’ and only a dark skin black woman will do. The blacker the berry the sweeter the juice.” [Much along the lines of the recent press coverage of the “Magic Negro” seen in film and politics, I’d like to see a similar article on what appears to be the “Magic Negress” who can apparently cure sexual impotency.]
  • They make great dominatrixes: “I would love you to train me to serve you . . . I can be most useful to you giving you a foot rub, or maybe you get off on humiliating (privately) a white boy.” / [my personal favorite]”I’m pretty sure the term jungle fever is not politicall correct- so I won’t use it! But c’mon- there is something to the notion of a black woman taking control of a white man in the bedroom, don’t ya think? For a progressive guy- it feels weird to even type this.” [Does it feel as weird to think it, too?]
  • Strong Black Woman: “Goodlooking white boy looking for a confident black woman with an attitude.” / “I love dominant, bossy black women. I’d love to treat you like the queen you know you are.”[Why do black women ALWAYS fall into the “bossy” category? I see the mammy stereotype is alive and well in the dating world . . . ]
  • I’ve never been with one, but it’s my biggest fantasy: “I am out here because I’ve always wanted to meet a black female but I’ve never been in the situation to do so. Thought maybe CL would be a good place to find what I’m looking for. Yeah, I know I am married and I shouldn’t be doing this. Please don’t preach to me… it is annoying. If you are interested in white guys . . . send me an email.” [What is implied here? Sex is fine, but just don’t marry one.]
  • Eh, you all look alike: “I work with this sexy black girl and she about 23 or 24. I think about her alot. Problem is that since we work together I can not be with her. Plus, she doesn’t know that I have this fantasy. So I am looking for a girl to take her place!!” [Read: You are all pretty much the same anyway, so even if you are NOT the girl from my office, your simply being black will suffice]
  • They have big butts (and need financial assistance): “Are you very attractive young black or latina woman, very cutie with nice round shaply phat bottom very clean aids dd free, 18 to 25 you need $200.00 in cash willing to give daddy sweet good loving.” [One word: ew. This one made me cringe.]
  • Interracial sex might cure my identity crisis: “Trapped in the body of a white man: Hi there, I’m a SWM, cute and intelligent, who has always dated all races but had a preference for black women. . .As a kid, my heroes were Walt Frazier and Jimi Hendrix and I also had a serious fondness for ’70s soul music (still do, actually). But last time I checked, I was white.” [A multiracial woman I interviewed informed me that she tires of these types of attempts at cultural immersion, “Like if a white guy who’s into hip-hop digs me because it makes him look cool to have a sorta-black girl on his arm.” Dating someone who is not white will not change who you are nor will it automatically give you a “hey look, I am part of your community” pass.]

Men looking for white women
I found that the most offensive of the ads regarding white women were those written by black men. Though men from other racial backgrounds expressed that they wanted to date an “SWF,” the majority of them did not contain nearly as much stereotyping, nor did the posters feel the need to explain themselves for wanting to date a white woman.

  • The One: “Looking for a slender white woman: I HAVE FINALLY FOUND MY CALLING. AFTER MANY YEARS OF DATING BLACK WOMAN, I MET A WHITE WOMAN WHO BLEW MY MIND WITH PASSONATE LOVE THAT I HAVE NEVER FELT BEFORE.”
  • Battling Temptation: “ISO SEXY WHT FEMALE SO ARE YOU ATTRACTED TO BLACK MEN? I have had a thing for white women since High School and I have battling this for years now. I can’t help it, it’s just my preference. I have dated all races and once fell in love with a Black woman yet, I have this strong attraction to white/hispanic women that won’t go away. I’m looking for somthing very simple.” [Um, liking white/Hispanic women does not mean you are diseased or possessed…yikes.]

Men looking for Multiracial/Latina/Middle Eastern/”Exotic” women
While most of these ads fell into the category of “any race is fine,” there were a few that stood out as they explicitly employed exotification in hopes of complimenting and attracting a girlfriend. Funny enough, most of these ads also made travel references (along the lines of “I have been all over the world, and this is why I want a -insert any race/nationality here- woman”). This one is nice because it contains about a zillion stereotypes all rolled into a small paragraph:

  • I’m just bored: “Maybe you are as tired of dating your own race as much as I am? Are you Mixed, Black or Hispanic and do you just love the ALL-American white guy who is tall and athletic with blue eyes and very well endowed? Yes, I said ‘well endowed.’ Hey I know most white boys have a bad rap of being ’small’ but not here! I’m also handsome and good looking with blue eyes;P I’m just tired of dating girls that I dated all my life; you know the blonde hair and blue eyes. I’m pretty new here from the midwest and there are no exotic women out there. But now that I’m in Manhattan I’m definitely curious!”

Given, most of the samples I included here are from “m4f” postings, but that’s mainly because there were about two times as many ads posted by men than by women. With regard to the other sections, there was an abundance of racist imagery within the m4m section though, unfortunately, most were too explicit to share here. I am happy to report that I found less racism in the f4f section, and far fewer references to race at all except in the case of one’s personal description. Most of the ads posted by women, whether they were looking for a man or a woman, did not include as many references to appearance and/or race, and instead focused more on mental and financial stability, intelligence, and personality. I don’t find this to be a reflection of women’s dating tendencies as a whole, it just so happened to be the case in the week’s worth of CL NYC ads I reviewed. Nevertheless, the f4m section was certainly not free from posts that convey messages about race in similar ways as postings profiled above.

So with that said, I suggest you click on over to the Craigslist personals. It certainly makes you wonder how different the world would be if its content were plastered on people’s foreheads when you interacted with them so you could avoid any confusion about what they want and why. . .

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Single White Male Supremacist Seeking Stereotypical Submissive Dragoon Lady « The Blog and the Bullet on 19 May 2007 at 6:25 pm

    […] by Jack Stephens on May 19th, 2007 Wendi Muse, writing on Racialicious, blogs about personal ads and Craigslist: In the world of online dating, where a user name, masked email address, and […]

  2. Men still want blondes for paid booty calls! « A Moveable Feast on 20 May 2007 at 10:37 am

    […] May 20th, 2007 by howard53545 Craigslist Personals: Desperately Seeking Diversity Training […]

  3. Week 3 « Sociology of Women on 30 May 2007 at 10:21 pm

    […] Racial Stereotypes in Craigslist Ads, a look at how personals on craigslist use racially offensive language. […]

  4. No Black, Asian, overweight or unattractive women for Harvard party at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 20 Sep 2007 at 10:01 am

    […] ad here, here and here. And if you never read Wendi Muse’s classic post analyzing the racism of CraigsList personal ads, what are you waiting […]

  5. Noli Irritare Leones » Blog Archive » Incredibly insecure (but oh so “upscale”) social climbing Harvard man seeks skinny, blonde, quiet arm candy for party on 21 Sep 2007 at 10:34 am

    […] sufficiently good arm candy? in what century?), but the fact that personal ads actually do often show creepy racism that people don’t express so much face to face leaves me […]

  6. Progressive Gold » Blog Archive » “How I Met Your Mother” on 24 Sep 2007 at 3:49 am

    […] CraigsList ad here, here and here. And if you never read Wendi Muse’s classic post analyzing the racism of CraigsList personal ads, what are you waiting […]

  7. Dating Blogfeeds » Craigslist Personals: Desperately Seeking Diversity Training on 05 Oct 2007 at 2:36 pm

    […] You can read the rest of this blog post by going to the original source, here […]

  8. 2007 October 29 « Sociology of Women on 28 Oct 2007 at 11:15 pm

    […] How Race Works on Craigslist’s Personal Ads […]

  9. Interracial Porn: Holding Us Back While Getting Us Off? (Pt 1) at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 22 Jan 2008 at 9:17 am

    […] the only ones guilty of acting out on and consuming films related to such fantasies. Much like my research on Craigslist personal ads, I decided to search for films based on racial categories like “Latina,” “Asian,” […]

  10. Week 5 « Sociology of Women on 03 Feb 2008 at 6:23 pm

    […] Race on NYC Craigslist Personal Ads -  disturbing! how looking for love is more complex than we think. Men looking for Black, Asian, Latina, or “exotic” women dredge up some of the worst stereotypes about these groups. […]

Comments

  1. gatamala wrote:

    That is why I NEVER click on anything other than “apartments-unfurnished.” I found a place to live…but a companion off of CL…I think not.

  2. A. wrote:

    Interesting post, thanks.

    I have to ask everyone who might be reading: What’s worse? Listings that explicitly fetishize a certain other race or listings that explicitly exclude certain other races?

    What makes you more uncomfortable: “jungle fever, dark berry-sweeter juice” comments or “no drama, no kids…. No black or Latin women, please” comments?

  3. ampha wrote:

    How do the NYC craigslist ads compare to ads in other cities? For example, Atlanta has a different demographic composition and historical perspective. Are there differences by region or are these observations generalizable?

  4. Rob wrote:

    To be honest, I’m not surprised at all with how race plays into the dating scene. In regards to myself, the phenomenon of Asian women shunning their own men is even more alarming and problematic.

    http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070511/OPINION04/70511017/-1/OPINION05

    The one major exception to the finding that women wanted to meet men of their own race was Asian women, a vast majority of whom stated that they strongly preferred meeting non-Asian men.

    The primary explanation offered by most Asian women was that they wanted to be matched with tall men, and they insisted that practically all of the Asian men they knew were short. But when I would ask if they would be willing to meet an Asian man if he were tall, most would simply shake their head and say they would rather not.

    Of course Asian men were difficult to match because, as I previously stated, the one group of women who did not want to meet men of their own race was Asian women.

  5. gandalf mantooth wrote:

    ….i lived in japan for 4 yrs and can’t get enough

    Translated from “I was at an eikawa for a couple of years and was so surprised to have a woman pay attention to me that I seek to replicate that experience back home.”

  6. Rabia wrote:

    Hmmm… I think I’m actually more uncomfortable with the fetishization than with the exclusion. I guess I’d rather have someone be honest about not wanting anything to do with me than someone who treats me like an object. In the same way that covert racism wrapped in a heaping dose of political correctness hurts more than overt racism?

  7. deb wrote:

    That was thought-provoking. A lot of those ads made me bristle. (What are these freaks thinking?)

    As to this comment by Wendi: ” I’d like to see a similar article on what appears to be the ‘Magic Negress’ who can apparently cure sexual impotency,” I’m thinking, “Well, wouldn’t she be quite the panacea?” ;)

  8. wendi wrote:

    lol deb, quite. That’s an interesting parallel to draw considering that black women were referred to a “black goddesses” in some of the ads (mainly those related to S&M) I came across while compiling info for this article.

    With regard to the question posed by A., I feel that both the rejection and fetishism based on race are equal. On the one hand, you deny all people of one group possibly because of a) stereotypes you hold of them (via exposure or a complete lack thereof), b) cultural restrictions (i.e. if your religion dictactes that you must marry someone of the same faith), or b) you may not find them attractive, due in part to the stereotypes, but also as a result of social conditioning to regarding beauty. Sure, people are attracted or repulsed by certain features, but science (and ancient Greek philosophers) says that beauty really boils down to facial symmetry. If that is the case, why would someone reject another person simply because they had a different skin color, hair texture, etc? My guess is because we are taught from day one what is “beautiful” and what is not. We can choose to accept or reject that. If one group is not known for possessing the features that fall within the category of social accepted beauty, they may be out of luck. . .

    On the other hand, when it comes to racial/cultural fetishes, there is simply a playing out of stereotypes.

    To me, the distinction between the two forms of racism is like the difference between someone who plots a murder versus someone who carries it out. Either way, I don’t want that person to babysit, if you get what I mean.

  9. summer wrote:

    A. asked
    What makes you more uncomfortable: “jungle fever, dark berry-sweeter juice” comments or “no drama, no kids…. No black or Latin women, please” comments?

    Definitely the “jungle fever, dark berry” thing. Ew. I’m a dark-skinned black woman and that makes my skin crawl.

  10. Anon wrote:

    As appalled as I was to read these, this is what I expected coming from Craig’s List. The majority of seekers on this site are not of the most intelligent or politically correct kind and those that are (the friend mentioned above) seem to post only when in times of “desperation.” Meeting someone out in the actual world at a yoga class or bookstore is far more likely to yield a positive and non-race based interaction. The anonymity (the fact that I cannot spell doesn’t harm my intelligence I swear!) that Craig’s List has combined with the majority it’s used for is going yield such quick ways to categorize people.

    I would REALLY love to see how people react in actual dating sessions. Try a speed dating session or something and see if certain types of men always have similar reactions or say things with racist undertones without the cover of the Craig’s List shield.

  11. Katie wrote:

    This is great - I’ve been wanting someone to break it down like this for a while.

    Washington DC craigslist is just like this - a morass of racial stereotypes, even in people’s descriptions of themselves. It’s pretty depressing. I’ve done the online thing, and the general racist climate made me so incredibly grossed out.

  12. dnA wrote:

    I browse Craigslist for this very reason. For some reason, our sexual foibles are more honest about our racial politics than our words are.

  13. Lyonside wrote:

    As someone whose Mom reads The City Paper personal in a voyouristic way [and may you never have to explain to your kind, smart, but a little socially shy mom the difference between a “top” and a”bottom,”] I can say that it’s NOT just Craigslist, it’s a universal phenomenon with personals. Some are just more subtle than others.

    >To me, the distinction between the two forms of racism is like the difference between someone who plots a murder versus someone who carries it out.

    ITA, Wendi - “positive” stereotypes are just as bad and get you no brownie points.

    >I would REALLY love to see how people react in actual dating sessions. Try a speed dating session or something and see if certain types of men always have similar reactions or say things with racist undertones without the cover of the Craig’s List shield.

    Anon - I have a friend who speed dates and I get the feeling that the diversity is sorely lacking at the functions. I’m sure there are multiple reasons for that, but I wonder… people are likely more polite, and have their “everyday” faces on, but the racism may manifest in the tried and true way of just not responding. Or in the speed-dating scenario, I can see some minorities getting TONS of responses, but others getting none.

  14. Donna Darko wrote:

    Rob’s article was interesting.

    The primary explanation offered by most Asian women was that they wanted to be matched with tall men, and they insisted that practically all of the Asian men they knew were short. But when I would ask if they would be willing to meet an Asian man if he were tall, most would simply shake their head and say they would rather not

    So height is not the problem. It’s probably nothing physical either.

    Interestingly enough, though, most of the Asian women we interviewed could not have had personalities more opposite than that passive stereotype. Many had Ph.Ds., M.D.s, or law degrees, and were extremely assertive. (Especially when I tried in vain to persuade them to consider meeting Asian men!)

    So professional Asian women were “extremely assertive” about not dating Asian men.

    e two groups of men who were the most difficult to match (and therefore had the lowest DQ) were Asian men and Indian men. Like African men, this was especially true of Asian and Indian men who had grown up overseas and relocated to New England, usually to pursue careers either in computer science or medicine. In a few cases I could persuade women to meet men of different races, IF the men were totally “Americanized.”

    So African, Asian and Indian cannot find dates unless they’re “totally Americanized.”

    One reason they were difficult to match is that only a handful of Indian women joined over the decades, compared to hundreds of Indian or Pakistani men. But another is that many women, even the self-described “worldly” ones, expressed the stereotypical belief that Indian men had antiquated views of women.

    To some extent, these women were correct. For example, of all the men I spoke with who wanted to meet women much younger than themselves, the largest group was, in fact, Indian men. Many told me that it was quite common back “home” for men to date and marry women at least a decade younger than themselves. And they wondered why they could not do the same here … which further lowered their DQ.

    So women don’t like antiquated views.

    It seems less a question of race and physical characteristics than modernization and modern views.

  15. Donna Darko wrote:

    That’s just analyzing the article carefully.

  16. Donna Darko wrote:

    The ball is therefore in Asian mens’ court.

  17. Johnston wrote:

    Thanks for this article although I think you do a disservice by only including the m4? ads. I’ve noticed what you’re talking about since starting college in the 90s.

    Like others have said, this is nothing unique to CL or NY. I have lived long periods in Chicago, NYC, Boston, LA and Santa Barbara, and have seen it all. CL just offers more space for detail than the typical entertainment weekly. As far as A.’s question, it really doesn’t make a difference. Any statement of preference can be easily be restated as exclusion. Two sides of the same racist coin.*

    I think the naked, anonymous race preferences that are expressed in personals are extremely valuable. It is one of the reasons that laugh at the
    naiveté of those that use a term like “people of color” seriously. There’s a common mythos amongst the left of “people of color” (and some white allies) uniting to fight a racist, sexist, reactionary right. I have no doubt that a more in-depth study of personal ads would not only reveal no such unity (in fact, many minorities, some more than others, are quite eager to “unite” with only whites), but would also reveal a perceived racial hierarchy that’s surprisingly consistent regardless who’s placing the ad.

    * I do generally think it’s racist but often others seem not to. It’s funny that Wendi mentioned Jim Crow since that’s precisely how I’ve always viewed the issue. Some think it is racist to not want to work/live with a racial group but not racist in the relationship realm. So I’ll ask others: is it possible to live in a multiracial society and be anti-/non-racist and still have race preferences in mate selection? Does it matter if the preference is for one’s own group or not?

  18. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Nice post Wendy.

    I’ve been pondering sexual politics and race myself for a while now. At what point do preferences become racist? Do they ever? Can you even try to take something as amphorous as sexuality and press it into a politically concious mold? If you aren’t racist, would you have those desires in the first place?

    But, eh…re: Craiglist, I tend to subscribe to the Penny Arcade school of thought:

    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

    The dating things on CL (at least in DC) are dismal - I went looking for a fun date and ended up with a guy with a foot fetish :-(

    Now, on the other hand, I used CL to find another concert buddy who was into Van Hunt and ended up falling in love…so I guess it evens out.

  19. Donna Darko wrote:

    It reminds me of this article about a Canadian documentary about the same issue. I’m quoting the article verbatim. Check out the disconnect between what the woman and man said:

    whereas most Asian men are trying to get back into their roots, “the women [are] trying to break away from tradition.”

    Cristobal adds how the men look for someone similar to their mothers.

    Girish Bansal, a Canadian-Indian computer sales director, was born and brought up in Canada. “Who doesn’t want to be a momma’s boy?” he quips.

  20. Donna Darko wrote:

    In both articles, there is a disconnect between what women are saying and what men are willing to hear.

  21. wendi wrote:

    Just as a clarification (and I cover this a tiny bit in the article itself), I initially was going to include more ads from f4m, f4f, and m4m, BUT, I decided not to for the following reasons:

    1. There were far more ads posted by men looking for women, than women looking for men (aka more material). Nevertheless, I include a few of them in the earlier sections of the article.

    2. Many of the ads posted by women either a) did not mention race, b) noted that race did not matter, c) focused mainly on economic, emotional, and personality issues, or d) did not use racist epithets/imagery to describe what they were looking for

    3. The ads dealing with race in the m4m section unfortunately often leaned on the sexually explicit side, and I did a bit of self-censoring (I did the same for the m4f, ads however, and did not include some of the really really bad ones). The general themes I noticed involved lots of requests for a small, “smooth” (read: hairless) Asian man to serve as a bottom and black men with large penises to serve as a top. Trust me, it’s not that I didn’t think that this section deserved attention, it’s just that I would unfortunately not have been able to include the majority of my findings (in their full-text) on this site. There would be a lot of literary “bleeps” so to speak.

    4. On the other hand, most of the f4f posts, as I indicated in the article, did not discuss race at all unless to describe oneself, which I found interesting. I honestly have no explanation for that. My guess is simply that it is in line with the f4m ads…women tend to post ads related more to personality for whatever reason…at least in the ads I studied.

    5. I think that a separate study based solely on the LGBT-geared ads is a good idea, but, sadly, as far as the stereotypes are concerned, they are similar to those I found in ads geared toward straight people.

    6. I recognize that ads on other dating sites are riddled with racism too. BUT I had to have a scope, otherwise, I would have never gotten any sleep with compiling information for this article. Also, because Craigslist is free, I figured it would be the best bet for viewing ALL the ads.

    7. If I had kept the article at its original size (ahem 10 pages in Word, single spaced), you’d kill me. SO I cut it a ton. Sorry :-(

  22. B wrote:

    All of those ads made my skin crawl, but, given how blunt people are online verses in person, at least these creeps have announced themselves before one goes out with them. I’ve definitely met a few guys who seem to have dated me as some sort of racial novelty, but I didn’t always realize it immediately, especially in my late teens and early twenties.

  23. Vandia wrote:

    What a wonderful post! It is a neat breakdown of a murky issue which simply is very confusing.
    I agree that fetishizing, positive stereotypes- like negative, exclusionary stereotypes- don’t constitute any real basis for a solid relationship.

  24. fgs_sfdg wrote:

    “It seems less a question of race and physical characteristics than modernization and modern views.”

    you’re good.

  25. Mina wrote:

    Hi Donna!

    “It reminds me of this article about a Canadian documentary about the same issue. I’m quoting the article verbatim. Check out the disconnect between what the woman and man said:

    “whereas most Asian men are trying to get back into their roots, ‘the women [are] trying to break away from tradition.’”

    Now I wonder how many Asian women try to break away from tradition and date Asian men at the same time. For example, if he’s Chinese-American and she’s Indian-American and she’s thinking “he doesn’t remind me of Dad!!!” too instead of just “he’s hot!!!”

  26. merq wrote:

    Wendi, that post was incredible. You got a mental standing ovation halfway through (especially when I saw there was still so much more to go).

    I trolled the various CL boards while researching a web-documentary I was working on a few years ago, and let me be the first to say that while the m4- boards are particularly egregious, the w4 boards can get pretty bad too.

    I would definitely agree with those who prefer outright exclusion to shallow fetishization. I learned just how offensive Mandingo fetishism can be in college — and I don’t mean in class.

  27. Mina wrote:

    “the phenomenon of Asian women shunning their own men is even more alarming and problematic”

    How is non-Asian women shunning Asian men any better?

    The only reason I can think of only applies to some of the ones who reproduce. Imagine an Asian woman and non-Asian man who both think “Asian men suck!!!” being told “Congratulations! It’s a boy! Ma’am, he looks like you!” (or for that matter, anyone else who thinks “members of my ethnicity and the opposite sex suck!!!” having such a child)

  28. Donna Darko wrote:

    ok Mina, you’re confusing me now. :D

    fgs_sfdg, it’s exactly what the article says.

    Read only what the women are saying and you’ll come to the same conclusion.

  29. Donna Darko wrote:

    Here are the parts about Asian women re: problems with dating Asian men.

    The one major exception to the finding that women wanted to meet men of their own race was Asian women, a vast majority of whom stated that they strongly preferred meeting non-Asian men.

    The primary explanation offered by most Asian women was that they wanted to be matched with tall men, and they insisted that practically all of the Asian men they knew were short. But when I would ask if they would be willing to meet an Asian man if he were tall, most would simply shake their head and say they would rather not.

    ok it’s not height.

    Interestingly enough, though, most of the Asian women we interviewed could not have had personalities more opposite than that passive stereotype. Many had Ph.Ds., M.D.s, or law degrees, and were extremely assertive. (Especially when I tried in vain to persuade them to consider meeting Asian men!)

    they were extremely assertive about not dating asian men.

    The two groups of men who were the most difficult to match (and therefore had the lowest DQ) were Asian men and Indian men. Like African men, this was especially true of Asian and Indian men who had grown up overseas and relocated to New England, usually to pursue careers either in computer science or medicine. In a few cases I could persuade women to meet men of different races, IF the men were totally “Americanized.”

    women are only attracted to totally Americanized African, Asian and Indian men.

    One reason they were difficult to match is that only a handful of Indian women joined over the decades, compared to hundreds of Indian or Pakistani men. But another is that many women, even the self-described “worldly” ones, expressed the stereotypical belief that Indian men had antiquated views of women.

    To some extent, these women were correct. For example, of all the men I spoke with who wanted to meet women much younger than themselves, the largest group was, in fact, Indian men. Many told me that it was quite common back “home” for men to date and marry women at least a decade younger than themselves. And they wondered why they could not do the same here … which further lowered their DQ.

    even the “worldly” Indian women found Indian men antiquated and this proved to be true.

  30. deb wrote:

    Wendi’s wonderful write-up reminded me of a video I found on youtube a while back: Why Asian Guys Can’t Get White Girls. Enjoy. ;)

  31. Mina wrote:

    “ok Mina, you’re confusing me now. :D”

    And now I’m confused about how I confused you. :)

  32. belledame222 wrote:

    per the w4w ads: not to be a downer, but I’m not sure it’s really so much about women/lesbians being less likely to fetishize the “other” so much as women in general are less likely to be blunt about what they fantasize about, and particularly when it comes to physical/sexual characteristics. and if you notice, there’s a particularly stark difference between the m4m and f4f ads in terms of explicitness.

  33. Donna Darko wrote:

    Now I wonder how many Asian women try to break away from tradition and date Asian men at the same time. For example, if he’s Chinese-American and she’s Indian-American and she’s thinking “he doesn’t remind me of Dad!!!” too instead of just “he’s hot!!!” The only reason I can think of only applies to some of the ones who reproduce. Imagine an Asian woman and non-Asian man who both think “Asian men suck!!!” being told “Congratulations! It’s a boy! Ma’am, he looks like you!” (or for that matter, anyone else who thinks “members of my ethnicity and the opposite sex suck!!!” having such a child)

    is convoluted, confusing thinking.

  34. Donna Darko wrote:

    My brain hurts with that kind of twisty-turny thinking.

  35. Donna Darko wrote:

    It still doesn’t make sense.

  36. cleoj wrote:

    holy crap.
    with a lot of black men dating white women like they’re glad they won’t get lynched now if they do, i find myself not even looking for black men to date.
    and if i had to go to ads and be met with people looking for their “magic negress” and all of that crazy shite, i think i’d just rather be alone thankyouverymuch.
    : \

  37. FrancesM wrote:

    Once I found myself looking for -not love but something- on the W4W of CL here in Portland. I was suprised by how many Black women described themselves as chocolate. I’m not sure what the motivation was for that but to this day I’m uncomfortable with folks of color describing themselves as certain foods.

    And let me break down this myth right now. Lesbians & queer women are just as hasty to be racist in dating. I tried to hit on a white butch many years ago & her response to me was “sorry I don’t date chocolate.” Uggh!
    ~F

  38. Mina wrote:

    Oh, OK. I get it now Donna. When I read “the phenomenon of Asian women shunning their own men is even more alarming and problematic.” I thought “isn’t it just as problematic when non-Asian women shun Asian men?”.

    Then I realized, “what about if and when they give birth to boys?” When a non-Asian woman who shuns Asian men has a son, he’s most likely not Asian and spared that shunning. But when an Asian woman who shuns Asian men (for everything, not just dating) has a son (and not by adopting him)…what’s it like to be an Asian boy and be Asian thanks to a mother who believes hostile stereotypes about Asian men? Likewise, what’s it like to be a black girl and be black thanks to a father who believes hostile stereotypes about black women?

  39. Sewere wrote:

    Wendi,
    Yet another excellent post.

    Merq,

    I learned just how offensive Mandingo fetishism can be in college — and I don’t mean in class.

    Ogbeni mi, did you feel like coiling into a ball in a hot shower afterwards? I know I did.

    Mina said,

    what’s it like to be an Asian boy and be Asian thanks to a mother who believes hostile stereotypes about Asian men? Likewise, what’s it like to be a black girl and be black thanks to a father who believes hostile stereotypes about black women?

    I don’t understand your comparison. I’m going with good faith here and say that the the minority people you’re referring to i.e. Asian Women and Black Men, who have a preference for white partners are more likely to believe in “hybrid vigor” i.e. mixed with white is better and thus their children would be better as a result of them being part white. Unfortunately or fortunately, what they believe in isn’t necessarily what happens to their children.

  40. Sabrina wrote:

    YIKES! and some of those people wonder why they are still alone or can’t find a date in the real world? LOL. Why would anyone want to date some of the jerks writing all this bovine scatology? I wonder if those personals writers realize that people are probably judging them as harshly as they are juding others? Granted, people have a right to their “preferences” and quirks but people also have the right to reject those idiots.

    Oh, and let’s not forget the major prejudice in personsals…it’s not race. It’s size…both body and wallet! If you’re a fat woman or a short man or don’t have money regardless of gender…fuhgeddaboutit!

  41. Mary wrote:

    Hi Wendi… we went to college together. Came across this thanks to the CL link someone posted. While I agree that there’s a ton of politically incorrect postings out there, the fact is that people have physical and cultural preferences in their mates and lovers. I’m a firm believer that sexual preferences are pre-political, and that no safe, sane and consual relationship should be ostricized simply because it isn’t politically correct. The strides in civil rights regarding sexual preference in recent years apply as much to those with racial preferences (even of the politically incorrect sort) as they do to those who have historically been disempowered.

    I might fantasize about submissive Asian women, “well-endowed” black men, or rainbow haired trannies, all of which have pretty significant historical and political implications in our society. If I fantasize either of the first two examples, I might feel guilty as someone with progressive politics for appreciating stereotypical traits that so many people have tried to distance themselves from. But if I fantasize about rainbow haired trannies, I can not only enjoy my fantasy, but smugly congratulate myself on how my sex life compliments my politics. I actually have straight girl friends who are so into feminism that they feel guilty that they don’t like sleeping with women. I don’t need that kind of moral crisis over my sexuality.

    Basically, my point is that sexual preference is pretty arbitrary, and that’s ok. You’re right, there are a lot more black-jezabel-seekers and traditional-geisha-seekers than there are racially-specific ads that seek something counter to a stereotype (except maybe for the inverted Asian-Domme fetish, but nevermind…). It’s a product of our cultural heritage. A lot of the people posting these ads may in fact be very backward in their thinking about race. But I bet a lot of them are about as upstanding as the rest of us, and happen to have racial preferences that they may or may not feel guilty about. In terms of sexual fascism, it almost sounds like political correctness is the new Catholicism– over-analyzing any arousal that isn’t “pure” based on overbearing ideology. I realize that’s a loaded statement, and yes, stereotyping the Catholic community. But my point is that a system that promotes guilt over a safe, sane, consensual encounter or fantasy is not the kind of progressive society I want to live in.

    Again, a lot of what I see on CL offends me, and I don’t disagree with your general idea. I see “no black women,” “no butches,” “no fatties,” etc all the time, and it is upsetting. But there are a lot of people out there who are just prefer redheads, femmes, or Latinas, and I can’t convince myself that there is anything intrinsically wrong with that.

  42. Mina wrote:

    “I don’t understand your comparison…”

    I was thinking more about how getting hassled for your genes sucks and getting hassled for your genes by the very people who gave them to you can suck more…

    …and the latter seems 50% likely to happen to the kid when someone who doesn’t like any members of the other sex and same ethnicity (no matter if that someone is an Asian woman who thinks Asian men are all wimps, black man who thinks black women are all pushy, Middle Eastern man who thinks looking Middle Eastern is ugly for women*, or any other such combo).

    “YIKES! and some of those people wonder why they are still alone or can’t find a date in the real world? LOL. Why would anyone want to date some of the jerks writing all this bovine scatology?”

    I saw something even scarier the other day on IRC. Someone was going on and on about how the world was unfair because the teachers he had crushes on wouldn’t fuck him, how he knew what women want but wanted to “be himself” instead of using that knowledge, how he wanted a “fine” lady who would make other men hate him, and how he was going to resort to a rape spree if someone like that wouldn’t put out for him. The rest of us got on his case to accept his datelessness, realize that you’re not owed sex and can’t even earn it, and respect what other people think if he wanted to be respected and maybe even have sex someday. I don’t know if any of that sunk in.

    * I’m lucky my Iranian parent is kinda sympathetic instead of one of those guys

  43. Wendi Muse wrote:

    Hi Mary! Thanks for your feedback :-)

    I can understand what you’re saying with regard to political correctness, but I am not espousing some sort of sexual fascism. I think the problem is that some people (myself including) want to be appreciated for who they are and not just used to satisfy someone’s racist fantasy. Imagine for a moment that you dated someone who was sexist. They may love you, but exhibit hateful/discriminatory behavior towards women and/or men. That type of behavior and thinking might make your uncomfortable.

    The stereotypes and explicit hatred that fuels these posts is problematic, even moreso if it is, as you say, a part of our “cultural heritage.” I question whose cultural heritage. I think racism of any sort calls for attention. My posting these ads was done in order to demonstrate racism’s prevalence when you can remain anonymous in your search for love. What one chooses to do from that point on (i.e. avoid CL or other online personals or play into the stereotypes mentioned) is his/her business.

    I am not encouraring people to not be honest in their posts. If that is what they are searching for, so be it. I call attention to the ads not so much to criticize their authors, but more the status of our society as a whole. It begs the question of why such stereotypes exist, despite the achievements/ advances made by and more diverse media representations of people of various backgrounds? Why are we all still being judged and judging ourselves based on antiquated ideas of identity?

  44. Brian wrote:

    Though politicians, institutions of higher learning, and Ward Connerly would like for us to believe that the United States is on its way to becoming a colorblind utopia, a simple examination of Craigslist personal ads proves quite the opposite.

    I am not so sure. I will allow that you have spent far more time looking at this than I have. Casual reading of the posts you outlined shows me what could be interpreted as racism but which is really no more than ‘preference’ dressed up in dorky language.

    Put it this way - we have a built-in bias to favor people who look like we do. That’s down deep - think just above the reptile brain. Above that we have layered on culture, manners and the New York Times.

    This does not mean, I think, that we’re doomed to a racist society. Another deep-down behavior, sexuality, is channeled and put to good use by society - so much so that most of us manage to behave ourselves around the opposite sex and can maintain non-sexual relationships. We behave ourselves because we’re conditioned to it.

    Which is, I think a good thing. I’ve visited places where women were treated as second-class alien beings - I didn’t like it much.

    But when it comes to affairs of the heart or glands cultural conditioning might not take. A man prefers a woman with a large bottom. Stereotypically this isn’t going to be a Japanese lady. A woman really goes for that Fabio look, she won’t find her heart’s desire in Indonesia. She’s welcome to try but if that’s really her thing she’s not likely to find it there, and more likely to find it in Italy.

    I think this is expressed badly in most of your cited posts .. but that’s what I see.

  45. Mina wrote:

    Oops, typo.

    I forgot the “has a kid without adopting” part of “…and the latter seems 50% likely to happen to the kid when someone who doesn’t like any members of the other sex and same ethnicity (…) has a kid without adopting.”

    Stupid me.

  46. daria wrote:

    i’ve only dated white men and that isn’t a choice. it’s what life has handed me and i really don’t feel like i should go out searching high and low for an educated black man who will kindly take me on as some charity case.

    if we all look at our dating “preferences” hard enough, there will always be discriminatory tones. i have never contemplated a relationship with a guy who isn’t exponentially smarter than i am (book smart and world wise). i have a thing for Ph.D. candidates in certain fields. what would my craigslist want ad look like should i be foolish enough to ever make one?

    grad student, sbf, 5′9″ seeks s/dm professional or grad student, 6′+, preferably with Ph.D. (bonus points if in Economics or otherwise Intl relations-related), naturally athletic build (but no football, boxing, wrestling, hockey players pls), attractive parents, parents happily-married, free of genetic diseases, well-adjusted, brilliant, wsj reader, able to do nyt crossword in pen.

    sounds like a eugenics experiment doesn’t it? our choices sound a lot odder when you put it down on paper. so while there are no mentions of the IBM, a rich athlete/rapper to take care of me, a knight in shining armor (white or not), ebony rhythm sticks, etc., they will clearly be offensive to some people.

  47. Brian wrote:

    Daria wrote
    able to do nyt crossword in pen.

    A very long time ago Mad Magazine (we’re talking before they sold out and started running ads) ran a list of ‘things you can do to make yourself look like a genius’.

    One of them was ‘in a public location use a pen and furiously scribble in the NYT crossword. After you are done toss it in the trash and mutter about how you wish they’d make the crossword challenging’.

  48. Mina wrote:

    “if we all look at our dating ‘preferences’ hard enough, there will always be discriminatory tones.”

    Except maybe for some of the bisexuals?

  49. Bobby Bardot wrote:

    What a fantastic article- you both amused and entertained me with your way of writing while the subject made my brain send pain to my heart. MORE MORE MORE!

  50. Anonymous wrote:

    argh. maybe you shouldn’t be reaching into the bedroom with this racial angst. after all, it’s the private sphere and none of your business.

    if people behave this way in the public social sphere or in employment or whatever, be my guest. but who cares what some racist idiot wants in their personals ad?

    if you’re scouring the personals and you see somebody who admits to racist preferences, then DON’T EMAIL THEM, even if you fall within their circle of desire.

    otherwise, leave them alone.

  51. Wendi Muse wrote:

    I just wanted to make yet another comment in response to some of those I see above that hint at my violating the privacy of the posters and/or those who have decided that in order to find a potential mate (sexual, dating, short- or long-term), they would resort to racism.

    My having pointed out that Craigslist personals (and other online and offline services of a similar nature) was to do just that: point it out.

    But if you continue to read beyond just the ads, you’ll see that I interviewed several people of different racial backgrounds about how being stereotyped in the dating world was incredibly frustrating and sometimes even hurtful. I am not making an attempt to pull a Lawrence v. Texas here (sodomy law case). I don’t think that Craigslist should censor its users or that people are not entitled to their opinions and/or desires.

    HOWEVER, I do believe that racism comes in many forms, whether it be public or private, overt or subtle, and they can all do their share of harm for those who experience it. Speaking for myself and my interviewees for this article, being made to feel less than a human being in order to satisfy a person’s sexual needs or simply to satiate a temporary need to force one person to fit into a stereotype, esp. if it is unwarranted (i.e. the interviewee who received racist responses when she posted an ad in which she indicated that she is black), is annoying.

    What I now affectionately call the “Craigslist Experiment” was an eye-opening one for me as well as many of those who decided to read the results. I think that reducing these ads to just “fun” or saying that critizing them is evidence of “racial angst” works to trivialize racism. I understand that Craigslist is often not taken seriously, but considering its amount of daily users, I think that the racism found in its personals (and yes, some of the ads were explicitly racist) should make some people think twice about their assumption regarding Craigslist personals simply being a catch-all for frivolous fun.

    But all in all, I have “left them alone.” I have not called for a ban or forced the Craigslist web administrators to step down from their jobs. I have not sent emails to the people who posted the racist (in varying degrees) ads, and I have respected their privacy by not posting their masked emails with the ads I included in my article.

    If you say something racist on the internet, which, mind you, is a very very very public forum on which everyone is given the right to use the copy/paste tool, you can’t take it back. At this rate, the internet IS the public sphere, and if people decide to broadcast their racism there, it IS everyone’s business, whether they like it or not. And once again, I am not suggesting that people censor themselves, but it is my hope that some of the people like those who post the racist ads or send racist emails to people who post innocent ads will think about the affect they have on others and work on having a more balanced view of people different from themselves. What one says is merely a verbal or written expression of thought, so it’s not so much the ads I am exposing. . . it’s the fact that even in New York, a multicultural utopia in the eyes of many people who live there and elsewhere, racism and stereotyping have not met their deaths.

  52. benny wrote:

    I think this is Mina’s point. Let’s suppose there’s an Asian woman out there who only dates white men, because she views Asian men as romantically undesirable for whatever reason. She meets a white man who has a preference for Asian women. While he isn’t hostile to Asian men, he’s certainly aware that he benefits from all the stereotypes about Asian men that pervade our society. At the very least, he has no personal interest in changing the status quo.

    They marry and have a son, who is Asian for all intents and purposes. How do they raise this child, who will grow up to face the hardship of being a romantically undesirable Asian man, an aspect of the dominant culture that his own parents had an indirect hand in reinforcing and perpetuating?

    It’s an interesting question to consider, but I don’t think it would ever be a real issue. There’s nothing discrepant about having different standards for loving one’s mate and loving one’s child. I mean, I have no interest in marrying someone with Down’s syndrome. But if I had a child with that genetic condition, I would love her unconditionally, and defend her rightful place in this world.

  53. benny wrote:

    I’ll also point out that I’ve posted a fake personal ad or two in the past, and know of a few others who’ve done the same, whether as an experiment or simply for a cheap thrill.

    The Asian guy looking for “wite grls” in all caps definitely reads as fake.

  54. Donna Darko wrote:

    That’s still quite a tangent from the discussion. What Rob’s article and the Canadian article point out with regards to why Asian women behave the way they do is repeated in “Who We Are: South Asian Girls Speak Out. A Roundtable Discussion” in YELL-Oh Girls! by Vickie Nam, an anthology for 15-22 year old, 1.5 and second generation Asian American young women. The book came out in 2001 so these girls are now 21-28, the exact demographic Asian men want to date and marry. I’d recommend the book and chapter to all Asian American men and women.

  55. Donna Darko wrote:

    For those too lazy to trek to the Barnes and Noble, these seven college students said they are not listened to, feel disrespected, aren’t crazy about traditional views and don’t like momma’s boys.

  56. Donna Darko wrote:

    It’s time for men to stop talking to each other in circles and start really listening to what women are saying. Most have given up because men do not listen.

  57. Donna Darko wrote:

    Latoya featured the book YELL-oh Girls! Emerging Voices Explore Culture, Identity, and Growing Up Asian American
    (Harper Paperbacks, 2001) in her “Lit Love: Anthologies and Short Essays” post

    http://www.racialicious.com/2007/05/14/lit-love-anthologies-and-short-essays/#more-630

  58. fgs_sfdg wrote:

    Donna Darko,

    please stop. I beg you.

  59. Dmitry wrote:

    Thats an interesting analysis of people’s preferences, shows how many stereotypical beliefs ppl have.
    Some annoying shallowness out there too,

    But I have a question:
    WHy are “White ethnics”, especially immigrants ignored in your analysis?
    Im talking about groups that havent assimilated much into Americana yet, like Greeks, Russians, Bulgarians, Romanians etc.
    As you may know, the “Easterners” didnt start emigrating in numbers until the Curtain colapsed.
    These groups are often seen as weird” and “ethnic”.
    Well, believe it or not, Western males also exotify these women almost as much as they do with Asian women.
    Easterners are seen as “white but not quite”, with all the implications…

    Also, Asians and Slavic/ME/Indian are very much newcomers to US. Blacks and Latinos, not really.

  60. Wendi Muse wrote:

    Hi Dmitry,
    Thanks for your question. I totally agree with you with regard to people from Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean being exoticized. However, just based on the week of ads that I reviewed, I did not find any that referred to “white ethnics” in an offensive way. Also, I had to have a method of searching. I looked by race, not by nationality. For example, I limited by searches to terms like “Asian,” “black,” “Latino/a,” and “white” in order to narrow my scope. If I had searched by nationality, I would have to put in every country in the world. . . which would take FOREVER. “White,” when used as a search term, did yield a few results regarding European immigrant communities, but again, none that I found within that week were offensive. That is not to say, however, that they don’t exist…

  61. Donna Darko wrote:

    fgs_sfdg,

    Respectfully, one half of the equation that is never explored is the effect of parents’ traditional expectations on Asian men and women. The expectation that a woman will take care of the husband’s parents and family. A lot of women take the easy way out and don’t want to deal with it.

  62. Donna Darko wrote:

    Something that Asian men never explore is rebelling against these traditional expectations, including the pressure to marry someone of their own race and ethnicity. Many of the themes of women’s writing is the conflict with cultures and parents and men, for the most part, have not rebelled against these expectations as much as women. If they rebelled against these expectations, it would help both Asian men and women.

  63. Donna Darko wrote:

    Echidne wrote an amazing post about how traditional marriage in India and China commodifies women. Unfortunately, a lot of these underlying traditions have not changed for 1.5 and 2nd generation Asian Americans. It would help if men rebelled more against these views:

    And what is it that makes girls and women so unwanted? The system of marrying into the man’s family and the expectation that it is the sons who will take care of their parents in old age. A daughter will leave, just when she would be old enough to contribute to the family, and not only will she leave, but she is expected to take a dowry with her. And it is the sons who will take care of the parents later on, or perhaps the daughters-in-law those sons marry, strangers, too. The daughters themselves will take care of the parents of their future husbands, you see.

    A trade in women, and a daughter a burden! Who invented this system? Was it based on the greater muscular strength of the sons?

    Think how hard it is to be a burden to your parents, to be traded off like that, to have to cut the emotional web you have built over the years, to start from the beginning, under the domination of strangers.

    Commodities, to be traded and bought, or to be exchanged for family connections. I used to think that a traditional marriage was like a labor contract for the woman, a contract which specified her duties to her husband’s family. But sometimes I think it resembles slavery more than anything else, and I say this fully understanding that many traditional marriages are quite good and that a certain amount of bad luck is required to see just how very bad the situation can be for women.

    And what about the psychological effects of being labeled as a nuisance, a drain on the family resources? Someone once told me a joke about women in India or China or some similar place; that having daughters was like watering the neighbor’s flower garden. What would the daughters themselves think about that joke? How hard must one inhale the spirit of patriarchy to cheerfully agree with its message? And I have seen that happen.

    But of course how commodities feel doesn’t matter when it comes to their prices.

    Do you know what I find truly ironic about the disappeared girls in China and India? That the concerns usually begin only when someone realizes that –gasp– men will not find wives now! The market in wives has excess demand! Do something! The price will go up, up, up! And there will be an illegal market of kidnapped brides! The rising price of women does not make them any less commodities, sadly.

  64. merq wrote:

    “Ogbeni mi, did you feel like coiling into a ball in a hot shower afterwards? I know I did. “

    And no matter how hard you scrub, you [choke] never feel clean!

  65. Donna Darko wrote:

    Yet ANOTHER article repeating that sexism (traditional attitudes) and not racism is the cause of high outmarriage rates of Asian women. This one from New American media repeats they like Americanized men — a code word for modern or not traditional. So far, we’ve had articles about the opinions of 1) all women including East Asian women 2) a Filipina woman 3) Indian women and this New America Media article about 4) Vietnamese women. I started noticing this same pattern in articles since Katrina. It’s time for men to start listening to what women are saying.

    “I’m a very Americanized Asian girl who needs a very Americanized male,” Phi says. Also, “I fear the potential acquisition of another Asian family.”

    Another Vietnamese woman I know, a marketing professional in her early 30s, echoed those thoughts: “I think it is an issue of cultural assimilation. Overall, I have found Asian men too ‘Eastern’ in their thinking about women.”

    In the study, most of the Vietnamese fathers who were interviewed considered “obedience” to be the most important quality of daughters. Tellingly, Vietnamese mothers desired independence for their girls.

    Teenage Vietnamese boys held strikingly similar ideas as their fathers. One told a researcher, “I guess I want a girlfriend who is very American but a wife who is very Vietnamese.” Adolescent Vietnamese girls in the study, however, were clearly looking to break free from the traditional roles their fathers had tried to instill.

    Although the perceptions some young Vietnamese women have of their male counterparts might not be wholly fair, it certainly drives dating habits.

    http://tinyurl.com/232wvs

  66. Donna Darko wrote:

    If this evidence isn’t enough for people, I can start quoting from the young Indian women YELL-oh Girls!.

  67. Hapa-Guy wrote:

    donna darko, i hear what you’re saying, but i think it’s more complicated than that. there are plenty of asian-american men (but i don’t know about south asian-american men) who are “americanized” but who still get ignored by asian-american women.

    second, i think there are probably many (not saying most here) asian women who go after white men because of social status—they think, erroneously in my opinion, that dating or marrying a white guy will increase their status. they don’t like to admit this, even to themselves, because it makes them look bad.

    i’m sure you’ll call me a misogynist for saying these things, but i think this is the asian female equivalent of the white male asian fetishist. no way to back this up with good evidence. let’s just call it a suspicion. i’m too cynical to accept (in every case) the “cultural” and “height” explanations given for not dating asian men—-aren’t those just excuses masking ulterior motives? aren’t they tantamount to fetishizing the white man as savior? i mean, let’s not forget that there are plenty of white men who treat women like second class citizens.

  68. Donna Darko wrote:

    hapaguy,

    You failed to read the article carefully which contributes to the problems y’all are having. One of the reasons cited is Asian men do not listen to what Asian women are saying. What exactly about Americanization do these women like? Here is what the women in the article said. Their words.

    “I have never dated an Asian guy, and will probably never date an Asian guy,” says my cousin Michelle Phi, a student at Texas A&M University who has been with her current boyfriend, who is white, for more than three years and says there haven’t been “any real cultural issues that have come up.”

    “I’m a very Americanized Asian girl who needs a very Americanized male,” Phi says. Also, “I fear the potential acquisition of another Asian family.”

    Look at this. The reason she needs an Americanized male is she doesn’t want to marry into another Asian family. The article then says what Americanized means for women two paragraphs down:

    “To be sure, our wonderful, well-meaning Vietnamese fathers have no doubt played some part in forming these attitudes. After all, what are the models that today’s generation of young Vietnamese Americans have for marriages other than our own parents? And what are the messages we were sent?

    In 2001, researchers from UCLA and Tulane University published an interesting study that looked at “family pressure” on the daughters of Vietnamese refugees. In the study, most of the Vietnamese fathers who were interviewed considered “obedience” to be the most important quality of daughters. Tellingly, Vietnamese mothers desired independence for their girls. One mother was quoted as saying that if her daughter didn’t have a good professional career before getting married, then “the husband can go off with other woman and do what he like.” But if her daughter made her own money and wasn’t financially dependent on her husband then “she no have to put up with anything husband do and he have to be good.”

    The men have traditional views. The women including the mothers have modern views. It has nothing to do with what kind of music they listen to, what kind of movies they go to, what kind of food they eat, American music, movies or food. It’s attitudes that drive women away or towards men.

    Next example.

    “Another Vietnamese woman I know, a marketing professional in her early 30s, echoed those thoughts: “I think it is an issue of cultural assimilation. Overall, I have found Asian men too ‘Eastern’ in their thinking about women.””

    Again, Americanization or cultural assimilation has nothing to do with American food, movies, music, “white culture” but the attitudes Asian men have towards Asian women. Clearly, attitudes towards women will drive away or attract women.

    Asian men have to stop looking and thinking at themselves and really listen to what women are saying.

    Or trying to say.

    Check the tragic disconnect between men and women in the same paragraph.

    Teenage Vietnamese boys held strikingly similar ideas as their fathers. One told a researcher, “I guess I want a girlfriend who is very American but a wife who is very Vietnamese.” Adolescent Vietnamese girls in the study, however, were clearly looking to break free from the traditional roles their fathers had tried to instill. One girl in the study said of her parents, “They don’t understand about life here. They want us to do everything the way they did things in Viet Nam. And it isn’t the same.””

    Can you see why this is frustrating to women?

  69. Donna Darko wrote:

    I was in the car today, thinking, like I usually am and thought what would be incredibly sexy to a lot of Asian women. Perhaps not teenage girls but the professional women in the dating study in the first article. I have no idea what teen girls are thinking these days but it could be different from adult women who go through dating services in the first article.

    If an Asian guy said

    I don’t care what my parents say. I will date and marry whoever I want. White, Asian, Black, Latina, Native American and I will do whatever is right in any situation and stand by my wife no matter what my parents say.

    I think it’s really wrong to listen to my mom who says I have to marry a ____ woman who will clean her bedpan when she’s 90 years old. Because that sucks. They needed sons to work farms in China that lead to this ridiculous commodifying and devaluation of women. But Asian Americans don’t live on farms. I can take care of my parents in old age or my sisters can. It’s not gender-specific. My wife can take care of her own parents or her brothers and sisters can. Mom, with this attitude, you’ll never have grandchildren.

    Mom, I think women should be equal to men anywhere in the world. My wife and I will be partners not owners and workers.

  70. Donna Darko wrote:

    To reiterate from the article and listening to what the women are saying instead of saying “Asian men are Americanized too”:

    “I’m a very Americanized Asian girl who needs a very Americanized male,” Phi says. Also, “I fear the potential acquisition of another Asian family.”

    She fears acquisition of another Asian family because Vietnamese families consider “obedience” to be the most important quality of daughters.

    Another Vietnamese woman I know, a marketing professional in her early 30s, echoed those thoughts: “I think it is an issue of cultural assimilation. Overall, I have found Asian men too ‘Eastern’ in their thinking about women.”

    “Americanized” men don’t have “Eastern” views towards women.

  71. Donna Darko wrote:

    Oh wait, we do know what teenage Asian girls think and it’s the same as Asian women:

    Adolescent Vietnamese girls in the study, however, were clearly looking to break free from the traditional roles their fathers had tried to instill.

    Yet tragically for Asian men and women

    “Teenage Vietnamese boys held strikingly similar ideas as their fathers. One told a researcher, “I guess I want a girlfriend who is very American but a wife who is very Vietnamese.”

  72. fgs_sfdg wrote:

    Donna Darko,

    “Americanized” DOES NOT mean modern, it means white. I thought everyone knew that by now. Hence, why Asian women aren’t flocking to Black and Mexican guys. Right?

    I liked how you conveniently mixed up observations on Asian Americans, Indian American men, and Asian immigrants from the article to further promote your claims.

    “To be honest the sample of Indian women who joined my dating service more than 23 years was too small to determine any general statements about them.” – from article

    Nowhere in Rob’s article does it mention that Indian women preferred to meet non-Indian men. The researcher claimed that Indian men had a tough time in the experiment because they outnumbered Indian women, and because non-Indian women (even with “worldly views”) either preferred to date within their race or thought Indian men (despite their country of birth) had antiquated views. The researcher then validated the women’s stereotypical notion by citing traditional preferences from Indian men who grew up in India!

    However, you, after “careful analysis,” failed to acknowledge the above, and further applied the antiquated views idea to Asian women’s preference for non-Asian men in the article.

    Nowhere in Rob’s article does it say that Asian women would consider Asian men if the men were Americanized. Americanization only improves the appeal of Asian men to “a few” hesitant non-Asian women. So much for your it’s more of “a question of race and physical characteristics than modernization and modern views.”

    If the researcher in the article attempted to control for sexism as he did for height, that is, if he asked the Asian women specifically if they would consider an “Americanized” Asian man (adopted by white parents?) with “modern” values over a white guy (obviously modern), what makes you think that the majority would not shake their heads and say they’d rather not, just as they did to the prospect of a tall Asian male? And why would these Asian women claim that “height,” not “sexism, was the reason in the first place?” hmmm?

    Let’s see if you can detect bias. In every source you’ve cited, Asian women who exclusively date white men were interviewed, and surprise, they all have negative views towards Asian men, and offered sexism as a reason for dating out.

    And has it occurred to you that maybe the actual reason that some Asian women exclusively date white guys may not reflect too well on those women? Sometimes, un-moderated internet forums, message boards, and social gatherings can be a more accurate gauge of people’s motivations behind their racial preferences. You’ll be surprised that the noble quest for personal freedom is overshadowed by white supremacy. Consider some different sources.

    Furthermore, have you actually read the UCLA paper entitled “Family Pressure?” Did the authors claim that a sample of opinions from children of Vietnamese refugees were representative of all Asian American men? Does being a refugee in a low economic bracket affect the degree to which you instill your traditional views?

    And find interviews involving a sample from the MAJORITY of Asian women who are married to or dating Asian men, and see what views they hold of Asian men. We can’t only let white men, Asian women who exclusively date white men, and whatever you are, define Asian men, can we?

    Anyway, good job! In a thread about racist dating patterns, you’ve managed to perpetuate the unassimilated Asian male stereotype, justified the white savior of Asian women concept, and negated the effect of white media propaganda.

    Personally, I prefer the “I don’t date them because they look like my brother and it’s like incest” excuse. It’s quick and simple.

    You remarked: “Something that Asian men never explore is rebelling against these traditional expectations, including the pressure to marry someone of their own race and ethnicity.”

    Where did you get this insight? Again, consider the bias. And I know plenty of Asian men who “rebel” against traditional expectations. They’re especially common amongst Asian men who worship white women.

    I give your analysis a big fat F!

    And once again, I beg you to stop.

  73. fgs_sfdg wrote:

    “I don’t care what my parents say. I will date and marry whoever I want. White, Asian, Black, Latina, Native American and I will do whatever is right in any situation and stand by my wife no matter what my parents say.

    I think it’s really wrong to listen to my mom who says I have to marry a ____ woman who will clean her bedpan when she’s 90 years old. Because that sucks. They needed sons to work farms in China that lead to this ridiculous commodifying and devaluation of women. But Asian Americans don’t live on farms. I can take care of my parents in old age or my sisters can. It’s not gender-specific. My wife can take care of her own parents or her brothers and sisters can. Mom, with this attitude, you’ll never have grandchildren.

    Mom, I think women should be equal to men anywhere in the world. My wife and I will be partners not owners and workers.” - Sexy Asian male rebel

    This is good stuff. Want me to point to the ignorant and condescending parts?

    Echidne wrote an amazing post about how traditional marriage in India and China commodifies women. Unfortunately, a lot of these underlying traditions have not changed for 1.5 and 2nd generation Asian Americans. It would help if men rebelled more against these views:

    “And what is it that makes girls and women so unwanted? The system of marrying into the man’s family and the expectation that it is the sons who will take care of their parents in old age. A daughter will leave, just when she would be old enough to contribute to the family, and not only will she leave, but she is expected to take a dowry with her. And it is the sons who will take care of the parents later on, or perhaps the daughters-in-law those sons marry, strangers, too. The daughters themselves will take care of the parents of their future husbands, you see.

    A trade in women, and a daughter a burden! Who invented this system? Was it based on the greater muscular strength of the sons?

    Think how hard it is to be a burden to your parents, to be traded off like that, to have to cut the emotional web you have built over the years, to start from the beginning, under the domination of strangers.

    Commodities, to be traded and bought, or to be exchanged for family connections. I used to think that a traditional marriage was like a labor contract for the woman, a contract which specified her duties to her husband’s family. But sometimes I think it resembles slavery more than anything else, and I say this fully understanding that many traditional marriages are quite good and that a certain amount of bad luck is required to see just how very bad the situation can be for women.

    And what about the psychological effects of being labeled as a nuisance, a drain on the family resources? Someone once told me a joke about women in India or China or some similar place; that having daughters was like watering the neighbor’s flower garden. What would the daughters themselves think about that joke? How hard must one inhale the spirit of patriarchy to cheerfully agree with its message? And I have seen that happen.

    But of course how commodities feel doesn’t matter when it comes to their prices.

    Do you know what I find truly ironic about the disappeared girls in China and India? That the concerns usually begin only when someone realizes that –gasp– men will not find wives now! The market in wives has excess demand! Do something! The price will go up, up, up! And there will be an illegal market of kidnapped brides! The rising price of women does not make them any less commodities, sadly. ”

    I strongly disagree with your view on 1.5 and 2nd gen AMs…because it’s stupid.

  74. fgs_sfdg wrote:

    Whoops. Correction to the above post.

    Donna Darko wrote - “Echidne wrote an amazing post about how traditional marriage in India and China commodifies women. Unfortunately, a lot of these underlying traditions have not changed for 1.5 and 2nd generation Asian Americans. It would help if men rebelled more against these views:

    And what is it that makes girls and women so unwanted? The system of marrying into the man’s family and the expectation that it is the sons who will take care of their parents in old age. A daughter will leave, just when she would be old enough to contribute to the family, and not only will she leave, but she is expected to take a dowry with her. And it is the sons who will take care of the parents later on, or perhaps the daughters-in-law those sons marry, strangers, too. The daughters themselves will take care of the parents of their future husbands, you see.

    A trade in women, and a daughter a burden! Who invented this system? Was it based on the greater muscular strength of the sons?

    Think how hard it is to be a burden to your parents, to be traded off like that, to have to cut the emotional web you have built over the years, to start from the beginning, under the domination of strangers.

    Commodities, to be traded and bought, or to be exchanged for family connections. I used to think that a traditional marriage was like a labor contract for the woman, a contract which specified her duties to her husband’s family. But sometimes I think it resembles slavery more than anything else, and I say this fully understanding that many traditional marriages are quite good and that a certain amount of bad luck is required to see just how very bad the situation can be for women.

    And what about the psychological effects of being labeled as a nuisance, a drain on the family resources? Someone once told me a joke about women in India or China or some similar place; that having daughters was like watering the neighbor’s flower garden. What would the daughters themselves think about that joke? How hard must one inhale the spirit of patriarchy to cheerfully agree with its message? And I have seen that happen.

    But of course how commodities feel doesn’t matter when it comes to their prices.

    Do you know what I find truly ironic about the disappeared girls in China and India? That the concerns usually begin only when someone realizes that –gasp– men will not find wives now! The market in wives has excess demand! Do something! The price will go up, up, up! And there will be an illegal market of kidnapped brides! The rising price of women does not make them any less commodities, sadly. ”

  75. Donald Trump wrote:

    WHy are “White ethnics”, especially immigrants ignored in your analysis?
    Im talking about groups that havent assimilated much into Americana yet, like Greeks, Russians, Bulgarians, Romanians etc.
    As you may know, the “Easterners” didnt start emigrating in numbers until the Curtain colapsed.
    These groups are often seen as weird” and “ethnic”.
    Well, believe it or not, Western males also exotify these women almost as much as they do with Asian women.

    Hear, Hear Dmitry!

  76. Donna Darko wrote:

    Americanized does not explicitly mean white in Rob’s article. It says Indian and Asian men were the hardest to match especially if they were like African men who had grown up overseas. But some women of all races were willing to date men of any race as long as he was “totally Americanized.” An Indian, Asian or African man cannot change the color of his skin. What these women were referring to is attitudes especially attitudes towards women. The article says women of all races were willing to date men of any race fro