Oprah’s town hall meetings on misogyny in hip hop

by guest contributor Nina

Over two days this week, Oprah dedicated her show to a Town Hall Meeting to address misogyny in hip-hop. All this as a result of Don Imus’ “nappy headed ho” comment, and his trite excuse that black women are called these names by their own men. I was interested to see how Oprah would handle this matter since she has long come under fire for not having hip-hop artists on her show and she has said that she does not appreciate the degradation of women in hip-hop music.

The first show aired on Monday and was entitled “Now What?” It consisted of panel of black men and women, including a former CBS executive, two journalists, two author/magazine editors, activist Al Sharpton and the artist, India Arie. The second show on Tuesday entitled “The Hip-Hop Community Responds” was made up of a much smaller panel, Russell Simmons and Dr. Ben Chavis of the Hip-Hop Action Network, record executive Kevin Liles, and the rapper Common. There were no women on this second panel and there certainly were no female artists whose careers are built on their overt sexuality (L’il Kim, Foxy Brown, Khia etc.). Nor were there any of the female video performers who so willingly prance around in thongs and bikini tops pouring Cristal down their bodies while shaking their “bump, bump, bumps.” Female students from Spelman College attended both shows by satellite from their campus.

[Note from Carmen: Oprah has actually had Karinne “Superhead” Steffans on the show before to talk about the objectification of women, believe it or not.]

All the panelists (except the Spelman students) seemed to talk in circles around the issues and used far too many metaphors (Dr. Robin Smith’s “you feed someone garbage, eventually it starts to taste good”) to address the issue of female degradation in the hip-hop world. The world of which they spoke was of course mainstream hip-hop-rap videos you see on MTV/BET (both owned by Viacom) or songs you hear on commercial radio stations (many owned by ClearChannel). But there were some strong comments. Diane Weathers, former editor of Essence magazine called for Snoop Dogg to lose his contract due not only to his lyrics and videos but his side hustle as a pornographer.

Stanley Crouch called the hip-hop music world a minstrel show and said he would not allow these “clowns” to relinquish their responsibility due to the poverty and crime that they came up in. Panelists on the second show continued with the metaphors. Common stated that hip-hop, at only 30 years old, was just a child that needed tending to by its parents. Common has certainly evolved into a conscious artist since his first few albums contained plenty of bitches and hos and one song in particular where he talked about shooting a homosexual. Russell Simmons insisted that he mentored many artists during his reign at DefJam and while he would not censor what a poet wanted to say since it was a reflection of their own experiences, he was constantly guiding artists to learn more and be more and perhaps present themselves in a different way. The Spelman girls got very frustrated, particularly with the second show’s panel. One woman stated that rap music informs the way the world feels about black women and that there was a lack of accountability from the panelists. The women demanded that the problem be acknowledged and that steps be taken towards a solution. They even offered to work with the panelists towards that solution.

Unfortunately these two shows were really not about finding a solution.First of all, as previously stated, the worst offenders were not invited to speak. Or perhaps they were and declined. The conversation certainly would have been livelier and more genuine if Nelly, L’il Kim, Ludacris, Snoop Dogg, or 50 Cent had been present to explain themselves. What about artists like Talib Kweli, Mystic or the Canadian artist k-os, all of whom have a positive message but very little radio and video play and it is not for lack of quality music! Londell McMillan, an entertainment lawyer who represents hip-hop artists across the spectrum was the only person who stated the real
problem-artists are under pressure to make sales. The type of music that sells depends largely on what is pushed into the public arena as determined by corporate executives, marketing departments and radio. A lot of these players are black and that is where change has to begin.

I am old enough to have been around when rap was born. I remember the first time I heard Rapper’s Delight by the Sugar Hill Gang and my mother went out and bought the 33rpm so we could play it on our record player (remember those?). I remember writing down and memorizing the words to “The Message,” “Jam On it,” “Roxanne, Roxanne,” and even “The Rapping’ Cowboy.” I also have to admit to dancing to “Gangsta Bitch,” “What Y’all Ni**a’s Want” and “I’m F****n’ You Tonight” not to mention pumping most of DMX’s catalog while pounding on the treadmill. The music I listen to does not always define who I am. As a woman of color I always knew that “bitches ain’t shit but hos and tricks” did not represent me. Hey even Oprah pumped 50 Cents lyrics to In Da Club (“go shorty it’s your birthday, we’re gonna party like it’s your birthday”) during her endless “I’m turning 50” on-air celebrations. I guess she too ignored the rest of the lyrics to that song and just felt the beat. But the white suburban teens buying these records don’t have that breadth of knowledge. And as Russell Simmons stated 4 out of 5 rap albums are purchased by white suburban teens. That is why the mainstream rap world has to do better.

If we are to be honest with ourselves, we are all a mass of contradictions. In fairness to some of the artists I mentioned above for every “Move Bitch get out the Way” there is a “Runaway Love.” For every “California knows how to Party” there is a “Changes.” A lot of artists are capable of going either way with their music and lyrics, but when it comes down to it, revenue is what determines the path they will take. And in America sex sells everything from rap music to chewing gum. The degradation of women is not limited to rap music and it is not fair for Imus or anyone else to use the hip-hop world as a scapegoat for their inappropriate behavior. Misogyny is indeed a societal problem and one that we need to address as a nation, not just within the confines of rap music and lyrics. I certainly do not have the all the answers, but I do know that my wallet does the talking when I refuse to purchase music that I find offensive. I too have grown weary of explicit lyrics and videos. Of the promotion of luxury goods and thug living. But I am not ready to dismiss rap or the hip-hop community. I realize that these songs are just one facet of hip-hop, unfortunately to the mainstream media, they are the end all be all and sole reason to condemn the entire hip-hop genre.

On a side note:
It is a shame that Don Imus was the catalyst for this conversation on the Oprah show. A show with millions of viewers, the majority of whom probably cast a sideways glance at hip-hop. Oprah claimed on Monday’s show that she “did not want to fight this fight alone” yet she has taken up all sorts of other causes on her own from healthy living, to reading, to her current campaign against child molesters. Why this issue was not deemed worthy until now is unknown to me. I have written many letters to both her show and her magazine asking her to clarify her statements against rap music and challenging her to bring positive artists to her show. She said on Tuesday’s show that she considered Common a poet, but he had never appeared on her show until now, even when his song “The Light,” one of the most romantic rap songs I’ve heard in a while, was getting much air play. And isn’t it interesting that her audience was suddenly filled with black faces when discussing this topic? This also happens when she has artists on like Mary J. Blige, Denzel Washington or Beyonce. Does she bus in faces of color for these episodes? Just a thought.

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Oprah, Misogyny, and Hip Hop | Free Mp3 Download, Full Album on 22 Apr 2007 at 11:10 pm

    […] Oprah’s town hall meetings on misogyny in hip hop at Racialicious - the intersection of race and … Thank you for reading this post. You can now Leave A Comment (0) or Leave A Trackback. […]

  2. From Don Imus to Gangsta-Rap/Hip-Hop Corporate Sponsors and Beyond! Part 2 « New Republican Party Blog on 29 Apr 2007 at 5:16 pm

    […] of this genre of music, Black American women have a long way to go to RECLAIM their status as champions for R-E-S-P-E-C-T ,dignity and honor like Rosa Parks stood […]

Comments

  1. berrybrowne wrote:

    my mother doesn’t have much experience with hip-hop, but i agree with her sentiments. she said that if she were able to question russell simmons during the town hall she’d ask whether he thought he could ever make enough money to “give back” to the black community what he has stolen from us by exploiting us, making our lives more dangerous, giving potential employers yet another reason to think twice before hiring us, in order to make money on “mainstream” hip hop.

  2. jabarig wrote:

    The unfettered unselfconscious expression of both Shock Jocks and B-Boys have provided powerful entertainment and
    horrible consequences. Since we live in a racist, sexist classist society-
    it’s no surprise that those at the bottom of the hierarchy, ie Black Women,
    suffer the most from the evils of our society.

  3. Z wrote:

    First of all thanks for writing this, I felt similarly as I watched both shows. To me it felt more like an attack than anything and it failed to show as you said that the degrading hip hop music that is popular is popular due in large fact to the push of record executives to get it on air play. we don’t hear common or talib kweli on top 40 stations or even some hip hop stations due to this push of a certain type of hip hop. I also agree that they failed to look at outside influences on hip hop and misogyny yes there are misogynistic lyrics and images in hip hop music and lyrics but there are also misogynistic images in magazines and billboards, TV commercials everywhere, it’s not just hip hop. I also agree that the discussion would have been a lot more interesting had people like snoop and Nelly been present to defend the music they put out. overall I felt like it was more of an attack on hip hop than a real discussion I felt far more time was given to the first panel than the 2nd and that there seemed (aside from those on the 2nd panel) to be a lack of anyone who could look a hip hop in a more neutral way.

  4. Chris Chambers wrote:

    The last Hip Hop summit rendered nothing. And they refuse tojust tell the rappers to”STOP!” Russell Simmons is so two faced. Look, the “thug/bling/bitches/strippers/prison” stuff isn’t the truly scary part. Rappers and athletes are now perpetuating this “don’t snitch” ethos which has resulted in the deaths of scores of young black people, and allows criminals to operate with impunity.

  5. drydock wrote:

    Here’s a little provacative commentary from Larry Livermore, the ex-owner of Green Day’s original record label.

    http://larrylivermore.blogspot.com/2007/04/imus-did-us-favor.html

  6. eva wrote:

    Personally I was put of by thr scholars (Crouch) and journalists from the first Tow Hall. I admit I didn’t get to see much of it because of the VA Tech coverage cutting into the show. (RIP)

    What I did hear was the need for “the enlightened” to mentor hip hop artists.

    Day two was a pretty difficult position to be. Hip Hop and its artists are scapegoated. This isn’t to say that as individuals they couldn’t be responsible for their own words. Be for real, music industry heads pick these rappers because they contribute to the racial monolith. The SAME reason why brothers like Common won’t the support. Common is the Bill Cosby of Rap.

    Anyhoo those “leaders” on day 1 want dialogue then on day 2 they call the clowns. Yeah way to spark dialogue. I’m not going to disagree with Crouch’s assessment. He’s dead right with it however one will never REALLY SPARK honest true exchange by calling these folks clowns.

    What I did hear on Day 2: Mentoring of existent rappers is needed and possible, sans the condescension. New artist talent needs to represent a wider flavor of message.

    IDEA: We need to march on Itunes and say give us MORE diveristy of message or else we don’t carry the label.

  7. kelly wrote:

    your comments at the bottom of the essay, with regards to oprah, are incredibly interesting. i’ve heard many disparaging remarks about oprah before, but none that were ‘legitimate’ so to speak from a feminist standpoint.
    i am currently a poor college student without television so i did not get to see the shows…my mother, however, record oprah on a daily basis so i’ll ask her to hold on to those tapes for me.

  8. rob wrote:

    Was I the only guy who watched and thought that for the most part both shows were a bit heavy on the “Black Men need to step up and do something” part? Whenever someone ever tried to steer the subject onto the fact that if it is offensive why do women support it, it was quickly changed back to men taking advantage of women.

    Another issue I had was the girls from Spellman and how they tried to play like it was almost offensive to them to be asked if they listened to Rap music. I live in Atlanta, and seriously if that group doesn’t then they are like the only girls on campus who doesn’t, yet no one called them out on it.

  9. Sabrina wrote:

    It seems a tad convenient and contrived this “hip-hop” summit of sorts, with the criticism Oprah has recently received in this regard. It leads me to want to disregard the entire discussion. It is as though we are still relying on the “talented tenth” method of solving issues rather than using an equitable, collective platform.

    Every single culture on this planet has issues; and the black community is no different. It ranges from being (mis)represented in the media to our sometimes voluntary participation in the stereotypes that are portrayed. We have our own internal hierarchies and displacement issues with regards to class, education, skin colour, homosexuality etc. However, it appears that cross-cultural criticism is our main source of motivation for change instead of deciding how we want to perceive ourselves and then making it happen.

    I’m a Wu Tang fan, I reminisce about the first time I heard Snoop’s rendition of “Lodi Dodi”. At 13, I knew all the words and I would actually sing it on the playground. I wasn’t offended as I felt it didn’t pertain to me. But, I must also say that I didn’t know I was supposed to feel like I was “missing” anything in life until I heard Lost Boys “Bimaz and Benz”. The power of influence is relative.

    How can the problem be tackled when both sides are laced in contradiction yet, bind themselves to one hard fast opinion? Misogyny and classism are global problems that we are as close to solving as global warming. Oprah’s summit, biased and manufactured, is not even the tip of a solution.

  10. eric daniels wrote:

    That show was tiring by all sides, I would not have gone to this show because it was an ambush by Winfrey and her fans and they were not interested in hearing what Common and the others had to say. Everyone knows Russell Simmons has been out of touch since the mid-90s,he is more interested in Phat Farm and his buisness ventures than in rap music theses day. And for the new Race Hustlers Crouch, Whitlock , Black Feminists and Winfrey wanting to demonize black men45 and underyou are no better than Sharpton and Jackson or Imus and his white defenders and it’s a big turnoff,They are all playing with fire and they will get burned and find Brothas who would be open to a middle ground will totally ignore all of their issues.

    These people are not interested in finding a realistic solution to this problem which requires a few more things than shouting at Producers and rappers like Common the four problems that in my opinion is..

    1. Why hasn’t the rating system been enforced?

    2. What exactly is considered adult on the radio and video outlets ?

    3. Where in the hell are the parents?

    4. And why are retail outlets selling music, dvds and violent images to teenagers without a parent being present?

    Those are the issues that should be discussed by reasonable people in their cities and homes to come up with solutions that hold corporations, parents and retail outlets accountable, not some Bougie Blacks trying to shove their values and convince white america ‘they are on the case’ of these souless , mean, sexist, black rappers.

  11. Marissa wrote:

    Thanks Nina for your “right on the mark commentary”. I just recapped with a friend my review of Oprah’s town hall meeting, and I too was looking for representatives of the hip/hop community who continue to record these offensive lyrics to add their “two cents”. I was also looking for the “video” girls who decide to expose their bodies to add their views on this situation as well as the wives, and daughters of the rappers/hip hop recording artists.

    Thanks also to Carmen for having this site( I found the link on Newsvine).

    I would like to link back to this article.

  12. Cactus Lion wrote:

    First off, please excuse this post if I miss the dartboard and stray off the Oprah hip-hop “summit” momentarily.

    Back in jr. high, I used to be big into hip-hop; my jr. high days were big daddy kane, run dmc, rakim, early LL (ok and even JJ Fad - “we’re JJ Fad and we’re here to rock, rhymes like ours can never be stopped…”). I kept up with hip-hop just enough to appreciate later releases by De La and A Tribe Called Quest. Today I have a 50/50 chance of picking up the new Missy album, and that’s about it as far as hip-hop (which long ago was eclipsed by my other great jr. high love affair: moody British alternative).

    Back on topic starting here: My current problem with hip-hop is this: while the talent level of a lot of these top 40 rappers (along with the more regional favorites) is undeniabley through the roof, the homophobia (homophobia underscored) and sexism of most of these rappers is so *vile* that, even as pointed out by Nina these same artists are capable of producing songs like “Changes”, it taints everything for me. When I hear the f-word rhymed with such venom - well, why would I ever want to listen to that? I remember watching some Nightline program years ago about these bootleg mixtapes by these white supremicist bands that circulate in certain rural areas (some of the lyrics were transposed and were, of course, totally heinous), and then after that program it hit me: lyrically, from at a minimum a self-respecting gay perspective, there’s not much difference between one of those supremicist mixtapes and any number of today’s more popular hip-hop CDs. The only real difference - again, from at a minimum a self-respecting gay perspective - is the talent of the artists, production values and marketing (I know that disregards a lot of the positive messages by these same hip-hop artists but as I said, their positive messages for me are tainted by these same artists’ homophopbia and sexism). So to bring this post home, if one of those supremicist mixtapes featured an insanely talented artist, some infectious beats and was promoted to me from all media angles, would I listen to it let alone buy it, even if I could dance to it? The answer for me is no, which is the same reason that I don’t buy any more hip-hop; all those mixtapes/CDs start sounding the same after a while.

    So even if Oprah could have managed her hip-hop “summit” better, and even if it’s so topical as to look mercenary, I give her props nonetheless for at least addressing the issue generally. If it comes across as an “attack” on hip-hop, oh well. I know I come across as a hater, but believe me, I used to be a lover.

  13. Oranguteena wrote:

    My thanks to Nina for the enlightening post.

    My comments elaborate on some points introduced by previous readers. And I should premise them by saying that I am young and white and these are rather hastily-articulated thoughts so they are probably prone to foolishness. Therefore I apologize in advance.

    I think it would be interesting to look at the evolution of popular music through the lens of political culture. Certainly America has an incredibly long heritage of male pride/power as sexual exploitation of women’s bodies - I don’t think hip hop can be blamed for that, as some have suggested (as if it were the first genre to blatantly objectify women - please). The fact that hip hop is the focus of this discussion about misogyny is a bit problematic for me. This is not to say that parts of hip hop aren’t guilty, or that the conversation shouldn’t happen, but folk should realize that American music has been unfriendly to women from AC/DC to Frank Sinatra and beyond. The phenomenal Billie Holiday even made light of domestic violence in some of her songs (I don’t mean to suggest that Lady Day was a misogynist; only that her art reflects her culture).

    Misogyny, along with materialism, violence, and racism, are hallmarks not only of American music but of American culture altogether. Maybe a lot of hip hop can be argued to be a hyperbolic soup of at least three of those (it gets mixed up with racism too if you think about the tokenization of black culture by young white consumers, or the creation of this dominating image of black people that those mainstream artists, I would guess, create in the minds of non-black observers who perceive them as spokespersons for the black community/ies at large). But I don’t think the really massive current hip hop phenomena (e.g. Akon - ugh) should be analyzed outside the context of the larger society. Somehow this particular vein of hip hop has become the expression en vogue of young mainstream American culture. In my opinion, the fact that most of the artists who succeed on a grand scale present themselves as obsessed with male bravado, orgiastic conspicuous consumption, and highly-sexualized women that are themselves more articles of consumption than people, is not because hip hop is horribly misguided, but because American mainstream consumer society is horribly misguided. As with Hummers and plastic surgery, we should ask not only what they are, but why they are important.

    Anyhow, it seems pretty ironic/absurd for Imus, or anyone else, for that matter, to claim that they got the idea to be a misogynist from black hip hop artists. It would be great to see a more comprehensive discussion of sexism/misogyny/the sexual objectification of women in American culture and their implications for race relations, but I’m not holding my breath.

  14. Lara wrote:

    Well unfortunately I was not able to watch the Oprah episode (and I probably would have found it inadequate too) I will have to say I am fed up with the ways that people expect Black women to just kiss men’s butts and put up with the sexism in Black culture. Black culture is affected a lot by rap and hip hop (mainstream, that is) and it is dangerous to keep making up excuses for the misogyny in it. I agree with a few others that we have to look at the capitalistic and money-driven aspect that has helped to perpetuate misogyny and homophobia in rap and hip hop. However, I think that Cactus Lion makes a very good point: s/he states that people would never expect the black community to just put up with the racist and horrid rants of white supremacist bands, but for some reason or another we expect women (especially Black women) to put up with the misogynist and homophobic rants in rap and hip hop. If we want to really get at the root of oppression we have to understand that racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, etc. are all interconnected, NOT competing or unattached elements.

  15. Donna Darko wrote:

    Thanks for the link, drydock. I like what livermore said about Imus doing everyone a favor:

    Cora Daniels, who I’d heard before and who impressed me considerably, said that, “As a black woman, it doesn’t make me feel any better if Snoop Dogg calls me a ho than if Don Imus calls me a ho. I’m still being disrespected.” And McWhorter, who I’ve also heard before, pretty much cleaned Davey’s clock, summing things up by saying, “Black people will stop supporting this kind of music when we like ourselves better,” and adding, “There is something disconcerting about the fact that with a war going on, a health care crisis, and rising murder rates in our city, we are so upset about an old white man calling some people some names.”

    Imus, in his sad old white man way, was just trying to keep up with the brothers. And by doing so, he did us a double favor: getting his own pathetic, humorless self taken off the air, and simultaneously getting us talking about far more important stuff.

  16. Donna Darko wrote:

    The excuse that artists are just describing their lives and how they feel is the same excuse of shock jocks like Imus, Glenn Beck, Limbaugh, Coulter, etc. Every day, they tell us how much they hat Arabs, Asians, women, blacks, gays. Every day, they tell us exactly how racist they are. There’s no excuse for the hate speech of shock jocks or anyone else.

    Accountability is what is needed from everyone. We can’t have shocks jocks shooting their mouths off about how much they hate everyone the same way we can’t have top 40 artists telling us how they really feel about themselves and women.

  17. Donna Darko wrote:

    And Bernard McGuirk, Imus’ partner, was fired this week.

  18. Colin wrote:

    I’m not the biggest Oprah watcher by any means, but I wonder, is it possible that she predicted a negative reaction from the black community (if she criticized hip hop) prior to ImusGate and now she just doesn’t care, or doesn’t have to care?

  19. April wrote:

    I couldn’t agree with you MORE. ;)

  20. Rick wrote:

    I’d like to talk specifically about moving toward a solution to the problems that we have in hiphop. People attack hiphop all the time as if there are no positive hiphop artists in the industry making good music. Common, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Lauryn Hill, are all examples of that. The issue is not that there are not positive hiphop artists out making music of substance. The problem is that the few that have managed to get signed to a deal by the major labels, don’t get anywhere near the promotion and marketing time, money and energy that many of the “shock value” artists do. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy…since more time, money and energy is pumped into selling a (just for examples sake) 50 cent versus an artist like Common, 50 cent ends up selling more units…despite the fact that Common has a broader universal appeal and audience. The record industry is run by executives that have no problem pushing biases, prejudices and generally negative stereoypes of people of color. As a result, many of the artists that are signed are those that are willing to go along with the program.

    If we are truly going to talk about solutions, let start by supporting both major but more importantly independent artists that are making positive music. Record labels are in the business of making money so if we think that a bunch of rhetoric flying back on forth on panels is going to make them change then we are truly naive. We have to speak their language, meaning we have to hit their pocket books. Financially support indie artists that make good music, and boycott artistst that don’t. Very simple solution…very effective. I happen to work with one such artist out of Chicago that goes by the stage name of SB. He’s performed all of the country and even overseas as both a performer and a speaker. His music is positive, conscious, and profanity free. No misogyny, homophobia, etc., just good music. If you want to make real change, try buying his cd, paying to see one of his shows or helping his business to grow with your time, energy or financial contribution. When talented, positive artists like SB can be entirely independent business entities in and of themselves without having to rely on the record labels to make a living through their art, we will see music move accordingly in a postive direction. Only then will record labels follow suit and put more money into signing and promoting artists that don’t push misogyny & vulgarity.

    For more info about SB, please visit the following links:

    http://www.myspace.com/sbonline http://www.sbishiphop.com http://www.sonicbids.com/sb
    http://www.tapitfame.com (enter “SB”)

  21. eric daniels wrote:

    I am reading these respones about banning Hip-Hop artists and I think that’s a slippery slope to outright censorship. It starts to bring up a question, what can a black man say or do that will make Black Women, White Men and others do as musicians, artists or filmakers without being criticized. I am an artist who does erotic fantasy art like Olivia, Vargas and Nagel with the black female form, are you going to ban me for sexism?

    Drydock I don’t take Larry Livermore seriously, he did not say anything that was that intelligent and I don’t take 60 y.o. white men who says Jason Whitlock “a black man” seriously. I hope he feels the same way about NIN, Death Metal acts and
    Slayer.

    I hope many of you feel the same about the movie ‘Grindhouse’, ‘Sin City’ and The Sopranos. I doubt it because most of you love those movies and don’t mind Robert Rodriquez and Quention Tarrintino sexualizing black ,white, hispanic and asian women, but if Nelly does the same thing it’s sexism that utter double standard is what makes black men angry.

  22. eric daniels wrote:

    These people are not interested in finding a realistic solution to this problem which requires a few more things than shouting at Producers and rappers like Common the four problems that in my opinion is..

    1. Why hasn’t the PMRC rating system been enforced?

    2. What exactly is considered adult on the radio and video outlets ?

    3. Where in the hell are the parents?

    4. And why are retail outlets selling music, dvds and violent images to teenagers without a parent being present?

    No amount of ‘town hall’ meetings will solve the problem unless we come up with realistic solutions that do not make black artists and musicians feel like they are being censorsed.

    P.S. Carmen can you pick the second post I made instead of the first one, I screwed up on the spelling.

  23. bdsista wrote:

    Eric, I love Vargas art! I would love to see your work, as you never see beautiful tasteful art of nude Black women like Antonio Vargas did! I think that those of us who are intelligent, can recognize art and separate it from sexism, but in a nutshell, it is completely unrealistic to expect Oprah to have all the people on her show who would represent all the viewpoints that everyone here wants represented. If you really want to have a full fleged, full blown discussion then you gotta get Tavis Smiley to organize it in some arena and make sure the tickets are cheap, its televised and on cable and you can watch all the s peakers on YOuTube or streaming video on his or someone’s website. As a high school educator, I see the damage daily, I am called old fashioned, etc because I constantly challenge my students to be their best and ignore the messages in the music and on the videos. What is most sad is how they act out what they see and try to imitate it in their own lives. Parents can do some things, but the youth are doing just what the songs say, calling each other the names and denigrating girls around them. All the while, we are struggling to get them to believe that they CAN go to college!

  24. eric daniels wrote:

    Bdsista my argument is that there are 4 problems which no one has articulated with any degree of honesty and I think that has impact on what is going on with modern black youth culture and it is still

    1. Why hasn’t the PMRC rating system been enforced?

    2. What exactly is considered adult on the radio and video outlets ?

    3. Where in the hell are the parents?

    4. And why are retail outlets selling music, dvds and violent images to teenagers without a parent being present?

    The PMRC system is designed to let parents know what is explict content, I am presently with some friends developing a petition to pass around black churches(and eventually mainstream churches ) to ask urban stations on FM and AM channels to move their violent, sexist, homphobic content moved to after 12 midnight because of it’s impact on kids and teenagers.

    Eventually other concerned Black Americans will have to do the same thing in their communites and to address the musical imbalance on the Black Music charts, but for now drawing a line in the sand has to be done.

    p.s. Hopefully later this year (late fall) I will have a site to show my artwork Bdsista.

  25. rockmara wrote:

    OK, eric daniels, I’ll bite this one time (I’m sensing other people here might be ignoring you for a reason).

    > 1. Why hasn’t the PMRC rating system been enforced?

    Because some popular artists whose records
    were selling (like Zappa and other rock artists) were opposed to it, and the RIAA didn’t feel like doing anything other than putting parental advisory stickers on certain albums. Because the PMRC ran out of money to harass the RIAA and the media got bored with the story and stopped paying attention?

    > 2. What exactly is considered adult on the radio and video outlets?

    It varies with the radio and/or video outlet in question. You want a more specific answer, reframe the question, because the way you phrased it, it really doesn’t mean anything, and you haven’t made it clear how it’s relevant to THIS discussion.

    > 3. Where in the hell are the parents?

    I’m going to make some inferences here since this question isn’t well-phrased either (it doesn’t refer directly to any specific phenomenon). Some work three jobs. Some are on drugs. Some work three jobs AND are on drugs (I’m assuming you’ve heard of antidepressant abuse by the upwardly mobile – not all neglectful parents are in the ‘hood). Your point?

    > 4. And why are retail outlets selling music, dvds and violent images to teenagers without a parent being present?

    Some parents aren’t present because they don’t care enough to accompany their children to the store. Some children lie to their parents and don’t tell them where they’re going. Some parents do accompany teenagers to the stores when the teenagers are purchasing the goods of which you speak. This is not a monolithic issue with ONE question and ONE response. This isn’t as linear an issue as it seems you want to make it.

    And Robert Johnson, founder (and seller to Viacom) of BET, where some of the nastiest of these videos can be found, is a parent AFAIK. I suggest that you take the above complaints up directly with him.

    Now that all your questions have been addressed, since that seems to be your main objection here, let’s get to what this is really about. Permit me to point out that NONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS ADDRESS THE POINT THAT MISOGYNISTIC CRAP DOES NOT NEED TO BE RECORDED OR FILMED FOR AN ARTIST TO BE CREATIVE, AND THAT MISOGYNISTIC CRAP WHEN SPEWED BY MEN OF COLOR IS A SLAP IN THE FACE OF EVERY WOMAN OF COLOR WHO HEARS IT (and men of color should be really embarrassed that it took a white man, with all a rich white man’s privileges in this racist, sexist, classist society, to put the issue out on the table in public ).

    You’re absolutely right about the fact that parental supervision is ONE of the factors contributing to what kids see and emulate. And before you even jump on it, Fortune 100 companies’ obsessive marketing of the lowest common denominator is another (a niche marketing expert friend of mine says current mass media is the way it is because people tend to be more similar in their prurient, vulgar interests and differ much more extremely in their aesthetically noble interests).

    But NONE of that in ANY way addresses or excuses the gall of some wannabe do-rag head who calls me “sista” to my face and puffs out his chest because he can freestyle for 15-minutes and gets Jay-Z’s or Kevin Liles’ or whoever’s attention that way and then puts “bitchez and hos and buttz” in his videos because “that’s all he knows ‘cuz he comes from da streetz.” Whatever. At this point of evolution in pop culture, he’s usually a suburbanite anyway, but wherever he came from, at that point he’s a fake sellout who disrespects his community and his creativity is WACK if he still has the nerve to call himself “a artist” (please) because he couldn’t think of anything more original to put out as representative of himself and his art than that. (And I have 2 ASCAP Awards and 2 platinum certificates, so I’m really not trying to hear it.)

    I can’t see a “middle ground”, as you put it upthread, on prime-time butt-shaking. I don’t have it on in my house, and I work in the music industry. If I hear a young sister repeating the lyrics to “Tip Drill” because she “likes the beat and can dance to it”, I will ask her if she knows what the lyrics really mean and if she wants to be associated with people who think that way, and will point her toward other artists who come just as hard with the beats (Badu, Arie, PE is still the Black Nation’s CNN to me) and whose messages are just as authentic but not poisonous to the soul.

    Now that sister may choose not to hear me, but if I do that with every sister I hear who’s going that way, I’ve done my part and am doing my part and am NOT trying to hear “it’s women of color’s fault too.” We KNOW that part. Just because it’s ALSO women’s fault doesn’t make it any LESS men’s fault. I get SICK of brothers trying to fake their way with that linear bullcrap pseudoanalysis.

    YOUR QUESTIONS DON’T ADDRESS THE ISSUE AT HAND WHICH IS MEN OF COLOR SELLING OUT WOMEN OF COLOR – and not even for the royalty points that they think they’re going to get, most times – and how those values and images permeate the smaller community and the global community until those images are all people think that women of color are or can be, and men of color in positions of power, or scrabbling for them, or buying from them, are NOT STOPPING IT. THAT is the issue this debate is focused on.

    I’ve read your whiny rants before, and they all seem to be concerned with glomming onto as much male privilege as you can that you feel that other men (white men?) have that you’ve been denied. Little compassion in your posts (other than this last one, and what you’ve said you’re doing with your church; right on, brother, please do that — IF you can get the ministers to support it - can’t wait to see how that shakes out), and for the most part to he** with everyone else.

    No consideration in your posts of the possibility that racism and sexism are part of the same oppressive system, and if you want white men off your back, you need women of color to have your back – which means you and all your “brothas” have to reciprocally have their (our) backs, NOT step on their (our) necks. Even if you have yet to admit it to yourself, if having “what the Man has” is all you’re about, consider yourself officially tuned out.

  26. eric daniels wrote:

    Rockrama you bore me with the typical black feminist rants that is why many black men are more apt to defend Snoop and others than take your side. Like I told Lyonside a few months ago put away the Stevie Wonder , Bob Marley and Curtis Mayfield albums because that world of ‘Black Unity’ does not exist anymore and Hip- Hop’s golden age is over. Black American Men and Black American Women have different agendas what bonded us together during segregation no longer binds us we are COMPETITORS for the same jobs, resources and education access in America. In other words Rockrama, WE HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON BUT SKIN COLOR and the music and our multimedia reflects that divide. Black Women in my opinion have more in common with men of other races than with Black American Men.

    The issue today in our Black multimedia outlets is what access do children have to violent, sexist, content and what can be done to reduce it’s impact and what’s needed is parental, corproate, and retail outlets to require the prescene of and adult to purchase violent dvd’s, movies, or music. Rockrama, Black Women could have stopped this type of music 15 years ago. I don’t hear the criticism of Sylvia Rhone, Danyel Smith and other Black Women who run record labels who sign these rappers to huge profits you are being a bit hypocritcal trying to flip the argument to my so-called sexism .

    I get tired of Black Women playing the victim yet playing the same power games as men. Rockrama if Black Women want to be trifling and hypocritical as men then you have to take responsiblity for those actions. Whenever I see some “Video Girl” on a magazine stand and in a Ludacris video it
    makes wonder why don’t we ask those girls
    how they feel about being the ‘female lead’
    in those videos.

    Don’t play that Black Community crap with me Rockrama, there has not been a community since the late 1970’s. Black Folks are divided by race, class and gender. I can look at mainstream movies and videos and see Rosario Dawson of some other black (or P.O.C.) starlet being sexualized by Robert Rodriquez Quentin Tarritino or some other White, Latin or foriegn director in their movies or music videos and hear nary a peep or protest from you Black, White (or P.O.C.) feminazis, but if a brotha does it watch the Black Women/White Male Harpies and the rest of the population make it a Black Male Problem.

    It’s a parents responsiblity to monitor their children’s listening and viewing habits or MTV, BET, or V-H1 will be raising your children.

    Carmen I hope you print this one thanx.

  27. Angel H. wrote:

    eric daniels: You just got dumped by a sista, didn’t you? Because that’s the only reason I can see why someone would spew such venom against a group of women that would include his mother, grandmothers, daughters, sisters, aunts, nieces…

    Right now, the tears from the thoughts of your lost ebony queen have made you so blind, that you can’t see that not every black woman is a “video girl” or aspires to be one, just like not every black man is a thug and a pimp, even though the media would portray them as such.

    The memories of your African princess have touched you so deeply that you cannot possibly fathom the idea that while it is the parents job to monitor their children’s media intake, it also their job to tell them why something is inappropriate. Also, the parents would be serving as an example for speaking out against such unfair treatment.

    How sad and lonel you must be not to realize the historical significance. Have we as Black people not been fighting to remove negative stereotypes from advertising, television, and movies? And now, that Black women wish to destroy the misogynist attitude that we have been receiving from our own men, you dump us on the curb like garbage.

    Tell me something, Eric…

    Was it that damn good?

  28. kim wrote:

    Eric,

    While you may have put away your Stevie and Marley, that does not mean everyone does.

    I understand that you wish to emphasize the break in the link that bound us together when we were so seriously constrained as to all (well, maybe not Condi) suffer the same level of indignifying and belittling, violent and vile behavior and experiences, regardless of our independent actions and mores, but , really, you go too far.

    It seems that most of what animates your rebut is a desire for reciprocity, for integrity, in the outpouring of upset and testaments of betrayal, when even a Sister (and, why is everyone going on about Rosario Dawson being a Sister? Is she Black?) should cross that taboo color line and perform, on-screen (or off?) with a non-Black.

    Do you really find that the women who take up arms to something an actor who works for his living is doing to earn that living, are deeply invested in rowing the boat that is tossed on the ocean you’re in? I think not.

    Yes, it is “a parents responsiblity to monitor their children’s listening and viewing habits or MTV, BET, or V-H1 will be raising [our] children.”

    But not everyone is consuming the garbage that is out there, and not everyone seeks to indulge in this obsessively sexualized culture that has come to represent Black popular cultural tastes, and, therefore, some are actually quite offended. Genuinely.

    Take no offense if someone is offended by that which is offensive.

  29. eric daniels wrote:

    I called Rosario Dawson a “Woman of color” I know she’s multicultural, and since none of you want to explain when hollywood does
    movies like Grindouse( a great movie) Sin City and other forms of visual media other movies sexualizes women of all races but a Black Male director or rapper releases
    an a video or a ‘Video Girl’ like Buffy, Melysa Ford and others who got famous by starring
    in these rappers videos and no one asks them
    are they being sexualized and their feelings
    about this issue.

    Sorry Angel, I stopped looking for a so- called
    ‘ebony queen’ years ago because I do not need
    misandry and their utter contempt for black
    men like myself who will not let women get
    away with utter hypocrisy. I would like a Black Woman (preference) or woman of any race who knows who she is as a WOMAN. There needs to be standards in our media
    outlets to what should be played when children are up and the violent, sexist homo-
    phobic content either be played after midnight or not at all.

    I am just an introspective brotha who sees this debate sliding into censorship, after Snoop or 50 who’s next, it seems like White Men, Black Women and their supporters are getting payback for Imus being fired than for any serious debate on what is adult entertainment and how to strike a balance.
    sliding into censorship

  30. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    *sigh*

    Note to self - blog on perceptions of black feminism, inner divisions in the black community, and gender wars behind color lines.

    BTW, I personally cringe when I see arguments dissolve into “Black Men Need To/Black Women Don’t Ever” frame of argument. All too often we generalize, stop seeing people as people, make assumptions based on skin color - all things that we would be offended by if someone with a different shade of skin tone said it. So why do we allow our (black) selves to generalize each other with impunity?

    Eric -

    To address one of your comments:

    >>>Male director or rapper releases
    an a video or a ‘Video Girl’ like Buffy, Melysa Ford and others who got famous by starring
    in these rappers videos and no one asks them
    are they being sexualized and their feelings
    about this issue.

    Actually, they are asked. Quite often. I’ve read Melyssa Ford’s opinions on the matter in the Naked anthology, Deconstructing Tyrone, and a few other places. Deconstructing Tyrone also interviewed “Whyte Chocolate” - the imfamous “Tip Drill” girl who doubled for a credit card machine. They also spoke to rappers and directors about why they use video women, and what messages they convey.

    There was a special on the music video industry on either MTV or VH1 where they discussed the realities behind the music video, and interviewed girls trying out for videos, established models, and went on the sets to explore how things really go down.

    The discourse is very public.

    However, it appears that a lot of people (particularly, but not limited to, black males) are generally deaf to the discourse when it is presented to them.

    I personally think it is a manifestation of Hip-Hops Madonna/Whore complex - that the issues, perceptions, and truths of a certain group of women are disregarded because they do not meet certain “standards of behavior” as defined by whoever is casting judgment.

    So while the ideas surrounding this issue are complex, and well discussed, I feel that all too often it is dismissed by those who would rather watch fantasy than hear truth.

  31. eric daniels wrote:

    La Toya, I did not about Ford’s or Whyte Chocoalte’s interviews in Deconstructing Tyrone so I will have to buy the book and read it myself, I am sick and tired whenever it’s sexism, homophobia or some other sterotype it’s got a Black Male Face. I never see these so- called spokesman for any of them challenge Harvey Winestein (Miramax) Lyor Cohen (Def Jam/Island) or Dreamworks ( Spelberg/Geffen) or Sylvia Rhone (Atlantic) or Jimmy Iovine (Interscope) Clive Davis and L.A. Reid (J records) and considering the CEOS or MTV Networks (Vh-1,MTV, etc..) and BET are Black Women and didn’t see these people on Oprah’s show last week and they produce nearly 50% - 60 of mass media in this country. I don’t mean to be a racial conspirist but facts are ‘funny things’.

    But all I saw were people bashing Black front Men instead of the bosses behind those men while everyone else is comforted with the assurance that it’s the Brothas fault. Black feminists and White Jewish males can’t have it both ways, you can’t condemn Black male sexism, homophobia, violent content and patriarchy while at the time roll in profits from those endeavors while ignoring the wider societal problem that is American in nature.

    Maybe the reason Black Women like Winfrey
    Esscence Magazine and Black Male critics like Crouch, Whitlock and others are on the same payroll as Snoop and 50, Like Arsenio once said “Things that make you go Hmmm.

  32. Angel H. wrote:

    Eric: Have you even bothered to look? If you would actually see what feminist activists are trying to accomplish as far as the way that women in the media are portrayed, you would know that rappers and hip-hop artists are not the only targets.

    And your ridiculous conspiracy theory about Black women and Jewish men? Get over yourself.

  33. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Sentiment seconded, Angel.

    Mainstream feminism tends to take care of crusading against the very people you name (when they are not crusading against each other.)

    The information and criticisms you hear are targeted to a specific community - just because black women at Spellman are crusading against Luda, it does not mean that white women at Smith or Hood aren’t crusading against Rush Limbaugh/Rock Stars/the patriarchy at large.

  34. Sewere wrote:

    Eric,

    My man, I feel for your passion but not one of the women who are addressing this issue on this thread have used generalities about black men nor have they supported Oprah’s sloppy attempt to address the issue. What they have said is how some black men and women have colluded in polluting music with misogyny that denigrates black women. When you argue that that form of criticizing is censoring (and I don’t understand why you would compare your art to people like Nelly) then you fall into the same category of people who say criticizing the likes of Imus, Limbaugh and Beck is censoring. The question still is, do we really need misogyny and racism to highlight creativity and or engage discourse (even if you have it playing late at night)?

    What I can’t seem to understand is how you can trout such inflammatory generalities as “Black, White (or P.O.C.) feminazis” and “Black feminists and White Jewish males” and expect anyone to take you seriously. The very premise of accusing black feminists (who are a diverse in their goals) of colluding with white Jewish men (which is a common anti-Semitic tool since white privilege is the issue at hand and NOT some form of Jewish privilege) in the overall framework of white supremacy denigrating black men falls flat on its face when it is clear to any observer that black women groups (not to be confused with individuals such as Oprah or Barber) have always ensured that their criticism that did not utilize white supremacy/racist talking points. It doesn’t seem that you were able to tell the difference.

  35. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Good points Sewere.

    Do you have a blog? I’d be interested in reading your opinions…

  36. Sewere wrote:

    Latoya,

    I wish I had the time and passion to dedicate to a blog, I’ve been content with following discussion on other folks’ posts and blogs and leaving one or two comments. Hopefully that will change this summer when I have more time to write and maybe submit posts to Racialicious :)

    The thing about this specific issue re: misogyny, homophobia and violence celebrated in hip-hop for those of us who love this music is that quite often the discussion keeps getting derailed by sloppy attempts (re: Oprah), outright racist denounciations (Imus, Crouch etc), apologists (Snoop) and opportunists (Simmons).

    The question still stands must a song be misogynist in order to sell sex? Must it glorify sexism, violence and homophobia to sell the image of what it is to survive as black man? Must a conversation employ racism, sexism, homophobia, religious hatred, xenophobia and all other -isms to recognize differing perspectives? I don’t think so, I’m not ready to censor anyone who disagrees with me, but I sure as hell will take you to task for it.

  37. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Sewere -

    Interesting question.

    Since I don’t have the answer, I’ll flip you a new one:

    Why do so many “progressive people” listen to misogynist/homophobic lyrics? Among most of the concious hip-hop heads I know, we all have a radical mix contained in the contents of our players. And while most of us will speak out against the messages in mainstream hip-hop, we will go to the club and still dance to a song by Nelly, UGK, or T.I.

    The “they aren’t talking about me” defense is growing tired…(more so if you’ve checked out Beyond Beats and Rhymes)…so why do we still listen?

  38. Milah wrote:

    I have long said that the problem is not Snoop Dogg or Ludicris or any other “offensive” rapper - it’s the lack of balance w/in the industry. and the lack of balance comes from the lack of profit there has been w/ music that’s not “offensive”. If making songs about jellybeans or raindrops or clouds & butterflies sold - someone would make that song. look at the whole snap music craze - which is usually about having fun and dancing and partying. those guys still don’t get the respect - now it’s considered crap. um………….pick a side. or actually don’t. allow all of it. that’s how life is. varied. there’s more than 1 story to be told, there’s more than 1 way to tell it - maybe in Snoop’s world all the women he meets are bi***es. why should he not be able to tell his story if it’s true (or even if its not true - why should music have to be factual - other mediums - movies, novels, etc are not held to that standard). Someone else should come along and tell “their” story where all women are queens. Or perhaps someone could tell the truth about the real world where all of these women exist - some of the women they meet are in, in fact bi**es, some of them are ho*s, and some are intelligent, funny, charming, caring……..you get my point. I’m rambling now so i’ll stop but i say definitely it’s stime to stop blaming hip hop.

  39. eric daniels wrote:

    Lyor Cohen (CEO Warner music) WM
    Debra Lee (CEO BET ) BF
    Judy McGrath (CEO MTV Networks) WF
    Christine Norman ( President MTV) BF
    Jeffery Katezenberg (CEO Disney) WM
    Jimmy Iovine ( CEO Interscope) WM
    Sylvia Rhone ( President of Universal Motown) BF
    Steven Spielberg/David Geffen ( Dreamworks) WM
    Clive Davis (CEO J records ) WM
    Harvey Winestein ( Miramax) WM
    L.A. Reid (WinTunes publishing) BM
    Kevin Lytle ( CEO Def jAM) BM

    Anywhere along the line, these people in the last 15 years could have stopped Snoop, Dre, Easy, 50 Cent, Luda Jay- Z, DMX, Lil Kim and any other rapper who uses violent, sexist, homophobic behavoir and stopped their albums from being released to the public. Debra Lee runs BET for god’s sake but instead all we get is some black front guys who are too guilt- ridden to tell Winfrey and her wolfpack why don’t you go after the people who could truly ’shut us down’.

    And they do include Jewish- Americans as they were in the multimedia game in Hollywood and New York and created what is popular culture in since the 1900’s,
    And also three of the most powerful Black Women particulary Sylvia Rhone is Snoop’s boss but these women can greenlight shows and violent and sexist videos, but instead of
    dealing with that truth some of you are calling me out for playing racial sterotypes. Facts a very funny things and the truth is a ugly one, If this country wants to make Black Men the whipping for sexism, violence, and homophobia then let’s name the real people behind the “Coon Show”.

  40. Donna Darko wrote:

    It comes down to feminist movements for black women, Asian women, Latina women and feminist education. I understand why most black and Latina women shun feminism. White feminist movements have been incredibly racist. But that does not mean Asian women, etc. can’t have their own movements. In the 4-27 links thread, there is a new video using the word Chinaman made by a man married to an Asian American model. If she had some feminist consciousness and thought processes, she wouldn’t allow her husband to do this. Same with black women who allow this to happen. However, women are so often pitted against each other due to sexism and racism it’s hard for Asian women, etc. to have a collective consciousness.

  41. Sewere wrote:

    Touche, Latoya….

    I’m of the opinion that much like racism, sexism is pervasive and permeates a lot social interactions. To borrow from Yolanda at the Primary Contradiction “You can consider yourself progressive but you can still participate and help in reproducing sexism, racism, homophobia etc.” We are steeped in a sexist society and I want to believe most of us are trying to maneuver our way out of it by limiting our exposure to music.

    Truth be told, even the progressive artists we support (Talib, Common, Mos Def) have had some history churning out tracks that employed homophobic, sexist and racist language. The point is progressive folks; women and men, have taken artists to task by providing constructive criticism (criticizing the negative and showing support for the positive) and some artists are making changes. I wish I could think of a more definitive answer to your questions but for better or worse, the incremental change process is all that we have to go on… at least for now.

  42. Sewere wrote:

    Eric,

    I want to take you seriously, I really do but you’re ignoring the valid lot of black women and men have been saying for years. Bell Hooks, Audre Lord, Davey D, Michael Eric Dyson, the women of Spellman to name a few people, have been railing against the artists AND industry executives who are responsible for churning out sexist racist homophobic crap in commercial hip hop. Try and find Asha Jennings’ talking points from her leadership in canceling Nelly’s appearance at Spellman, maybe that will help you understand that your knee-jerk reaction to criticism is unfounded.

    Second,

    And they do include Jewish- Americans as they were in the multimedia game in Hollywood and New York and created what is popular culture in since the 1900’s

    You may not aware of this but the above argument has it’s origin in anti-semitic fears of Jewish control (try reading criticism of the Protocols of the Elders) and you’ll figure it out. The fact that a slight majority of the men who invested in a real estate and entertainment industry were Jewish does not mean that they were trying to establish Jewish dominance. The fact that the culture that was created projects White Supremacy and not Jewish Supremacy should be evident by all the criticism that has been lobbied against the industry. The fact that the folks who use your argument to talk about a “Jewish Threat” are people like Bill O’Reilly, Pat Robertson, David Duke and almost every White Supremacy group should have you worried about the intellectual company you keep.

  43. eric daniels wrote:

    Sewere, how about people finally realizing one thing, if you feel insulted by a musical genre where the men who produce it practice homophobia, denigrate women and use violent imagery to butress their sales why do black women still support it. after 15 years of a genre where the men totally disrespect them when there are other musics like NeoSoul, indy R&B, classic soul, Punk, Black Rock bands and sites like Afro-Punk where Black Women can find music and respect amongst the men and women.

    To me women have always been sexualized in American entertainment for fun, arousal and profit. I do not like the violent, sexual expolitation or violent music that is commerical modern Hip- Hop, but there are alternatives to Snoop, 50 and Luda. Latoya, I love your site and your diverse interest in acts like Toto, Duran Duran, Chicago and other acts who aren’t well known, why don’t you and other Black Women get other sistas to listen to these groups or alternative black acts who do not denigrate Black Women. Black Men in music will only respect you when you don’t purchase, listen or buy their products that is captialism 101.

    And I don’t buy the argument that Hip- Hop made men around the world call Black women those insulting names, if anything these men had sterotypes propagated by white men long before Dre, Easy and the Ruthless posse Bum- Rushed Black Music in the late 80’s and made it what is today a genre that has not produced a classic album since the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill.

    I find that amusing Sewere you are calling me anti- semetic because I won’t drink the kool-aid of the “Mythic” Black- Jewish realtionship and will call these people on the carpet for releasing a soundtrack of black- self hatred and popularizing it worldwide. When a Black artist can use the same racial insults on a record that insults other groups without punishment or censorship then I will say that Jewish- American Record execs
    don’t care but Micheal Jackson got blackballed for yelling a Jewish ethnic slur.

    Now I am not going to totally Blame the Jewish/White American heads of multimedia companies and their black frontmen for the violent, sexualized images they produce for public consumption, but if Black Americans of all classes would stop purchasing every thing a rapper puts out and practiced a little self- love dignity and respect for ourselves, some of us wouldn’t be influenced by these racist, self- deluded rappers and their entertainment.

  44. eric daniels wrote:

    I love Black Music and respects the fact that the 20th century was America’s greatest contribution to world culture. Black American Music is the building block for every style of modern western popular music from Gospel, Blues, Jazz, R&B , Soul and Funk, musicans of all races have been profoundly influenced by what Black Slaves have created, a 12 bar blues scale so simple that everyone in the Western and third world has used it to create some of the world’s great musics. That to me is an amazing acheivement in the annals of human history.

    For a people who were prevented from reading and writing Black Folks have created America’s only contribution to world culture. To be right up there with the DaVincis, Shakespeare, Mozarts, Michealangleo to me is more impressive. Our youth should be taught the legacy we have to preserve for future generations. We don’t embrace our classic black musical elders nor do we acknowledge what came before nor support with our dollars like Rock bands do, you can see three generations of kids at a Rush show (yes I like prog-rock) go to an EWF show like I did a few years ago and it was black folks 30- and up.

    Nor will we support acts like Fishbone, Mother’s Finest, TVOTR, Living Colour or Bad Brains that could restore some balance on the Black Music charts along with NeoSoul and postive hip- hop. You only get what you deserve and will tolerate and Black Americans by and large likes being entertained to a soundtrack of self- loathing, violent imagery and sexist bravado.

  45. JCH wrote:

    Oprah doesn’t want to get rid of hip-hop because her buddies probably own the company’s pushing the music. I like Mos Def and he has a song on one of his CD’s saying how hip-hop artist are getting pimped. It is ashame that our young children are looking up to Snoop, 50 cent and others. We need great black leaders like Obama who can inspire our youth to be something postive. I think blacks need another generation of great leaders for our community like W.E.B Dubois and Martin Luther. It’s ashame that blacks had to hide to read only 60 years ago and fought and died for Civil Rights and here we are degrading our woman. BET one of the only black stations, and theyare playing video’s that kill young black men everday. I don’t even know if BET is owned by blacks anymore, can somebody answer my question? BET has award shows do they have award’s for African-Americans who have done great things in the business world or discovered something, where are these people because I know there out there. I think that the recent events that is happening in the black community will wake us up and revive us.

  46. Latoya Peterson wrote:

    Eric -

    “Latoya, I love your site and your diverse interest in acts like Toto, Duran Duran, Chicago and other acts who aren’t well known, why don’t you and other Black Women get other sistas to listen to these groups or alternative black acts who do not denigrate Black Women.”

    Glad you like my site, but did I mention Toto, Duran Duran, and Chicago? That might not be me - the only Duran Duran song I have even heard in its entirety is Hungry Like the Wolf. (maybe you are thinking of Toya from the BlackGirlsLikeUs blog?)

    I am a huge fan of multiple genres - my playlist right now is a mix of Japanese Rock, Japanese Hip-Hop, Korean Hip-Hop, a couple punk classics, some hip-hop, power pop. I’ve got everyone from the Violent Femmes to Esthero to M-Flo to Mos Def to Anna Tsuchiya.

    I find as I get older, I still identify as a hip-hopper, but listen to hip-hop less and less. It saddens me, but what can I do. I’m lucky my best friend is on a relentless mission to resurrect hip-hop, and she keeps me informed about what is going on in the underground scene. Other than that, I’m off doing my own thing.

    My suspicion is that many hip-hop loving women are doing the same thing. We are picking and choosing our hip-hop. However, instead of the main course in my musical feast, it is now more of a side dish.

    Any one else want to offer their thoughts on this?

  47. gem wrote:

    I think there plenty of us that are equally outraged about the portrayal of African American women in popular culture . Now we need to get organized. It is time to DEFUND THE WAR ON BLACK WOMEN! Period. End of discussion. This isn’t about artistic expression. This is about capitalism. People have a right to basically say whatever they want to, but I don’t have to subsidize it in any way. Hence the term “starving artist.”
    My website is dedicated to Defunding the War on Black Women and misogyny in music. WhatAboutOurDaughters.blogspot.com. We feature grassroots efforts throughout the country. We have a talkshow this weekend at Noon central standard time, the Black WOmen’s Roundtable. The topic this week is “Does Hip Hop Really Hate Black WOmen?” COme join us!

  48. tanya ingram wrote:

    I am not upset with oprah winfrey. How can you ask grandma to understand hip hop? She is disconnected to a sociey that represents her. Hip hop speaks of the struggle of life (her life in particular) and the lives of so many other people. Black people who may not agree that the things that hiphop speak about are degrading, but they exist. She has been far remove from poor folks for such along time that she has forgotten about when people feel taken away with a thing, that they feel that all they have is what is true. Perception is reality. What we perceive to be real in our everyday is real because we live it. Oprah on the other hand has done great things for the right people, but only people that she perceives to be right. She has lost the most important thing about people. That what they see for themselves is only what they understand, it doesn’t mean that they don’t want to expand but their situation makes them stuck. As well as her current situation has made her stuck, but money and the lack of interaction will cause for that to happen. That goes for both sides.

  49. SUKSESS wrote:

    I wanted to add that the biggest problem that I can see as a white male in tune with the hip hop community, is that african americans feel that hip hop music, is the overall voice of their culture. It is very evident that the views of the hip hop community are a vast minority as oppossed to that of most people. The bottom line is there is no moral fiber to hip hop and it is definetly can not be held accountable nor responsible for raising african american children or teens. And if and when it is that is where the issue should be addressed.

  50. pfunk wrote:

    Wow, I am late to this game, but I’ve gotta say that I agree about Oprah.
    Try getting a straight answer out of her.
    Sadly, I am not in her demographic.
    I’m black and I’m not upper middle class–anymore.

    Regarding the hip hop debate:
    I think that it’s not what you’re called, it’s what you answer to…still, it would be a great thing if we could create music that is uplifting.
    BUT, there is room for everyone.
    No one had too much to say about Guns N’ Roses and their crazy b.s.

    It boils down to ‘what is art’, really.

    I am adding you to my blogroll, by the way.

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