Comments

1. Colin wrote:

   Awesome Carmen, you posted about it! I’ve myself have been hoping to get time to talk about the Chief Illiniwek situation in Illinois since students have started protesting and demanding the mascot’s return. I personally wanted to know if anyone else saw Chief Illiniwek as anything but completely offensive and intolerable.

   Posted 27 Feb 2007 at 7:18 pm ¶

2. Rob wrote:

   I was just about to send you that article regarding the guy in NYU who was defending the “Find the Illegal Immigrant” contest and who also happened to be Asian.

   The writer was right on the money and is a perfect example of why I actually consider blacks to be the “model minority” while Asian Americans to be “sellouts.”

   Blacks fight for social injustice while Asian Americans either just accept themselves as victims or actually support the white control structure.

   Posted 28 Feb 2007 at 11:43 am ¶

3. kim wrote:

   Who fights FOR social injustice?

   Your idea of the model minority must be the most inverted, sarcastic use ever.

   Posted 28 Feb 2007 at 2:03 pm ¶

4. Rob wrote:

   Haha. Whoops.

   I meant to write that “Blacks fight for social justice.” Bad typo.

   In regards to being the model minority, I wish that Asian Americans would copy and emulate how the black communities ability to fight for social justice rather than attempting to kiss up to the white power structure and joining in on oppressing others.

   Posted 28 Feb 2007 at 4:05 pm ¶

5. Sewere wrote:

   Rob said,

   In regards to being the model minority, I wish that Asian Americans would copy and emulate how the black communities ability to fight for social justice rather than attempting to kiss up to the white power structure and joining in on oppressing others.

   Bruh, I know you have much passion for your community especially the multiple forms of discrimination and oppression they face… but you really need to stop making these sweeping statements about how the Asian Community is kissing ass because you insult all the hard work that those Asian women and men who have come before you have done…

   Dude, what about all our Chinese, Japanese, Indian and Pakistani mothers, fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers who suffered and died to bring us the Civil Rights?

   What about the likes of Yuri Kochiyama and others who fought against internments camps?

   What about the community leaders and countless organizations who fought tirelessly against the anti-Asian immigration laws until the ’60s?

   What about the countless groups who stood up to the government during the persecution of Wen Ho Lee?

   What about our very own contemporary leaders people like Russell Jeung (who was my TA and a big Oakland housing advocate), Liz Lee (who was in the forefront of the movement to keep the Ethnic Studies program at Berkeley)? What about people like Carmen, Jen Chau, Jenn Fang, Claire Light, Prof. C.N. Le, Shaljia Patel, the amazing women of the South Asian Sisters Group, Beau Sia?

   I’m not saying you shouldn’t offer any constructive criticism to INDIVIDUAL leaders, but please, please I beg you, enough of the generalized criticisms because you come off as completely disrespectful and hurtful to the lives and memories of those who have and are fighting for the rights of Asian Communities.

   Posted 28 Feb 2007 at 6:24 pm ¶

6. FEB wrote:

   Sewere,

   I understand why you feel Rob’s statement generalizes Asian Americans as “sellouts,” and perhaps he is applying the term a bit too liberally. But let’s be frank- - Rob is partially right in saying that a significant number of Asian Americans have no appreciation about the legacy of white racism.

   There are still a considerable numbers of Asian Americans who see themselves as “model minorities” and “honorary whites.” They fail to see how this insidious label is used to manipulate them into treating other minorities (blacks in particular) as a threat to their own status. These misguided Asians are being used to give racial cover for anti-immigration and anti-affirmative action groups (largely composed of conservative whites).

   And another thing- there is resonance in Rob’s comment which is not lost in how Asians are viewed by other minorities. I have read countless postings by blacks, some of them on this very Web site, describing how they feel letdown by Asians who are far too eager to side with whites; even to the point of dismantling civil rights policies. These things cannot and should not be glossed over.

   Posted 01 Mar 2007 at 4:02 am ¶

7. Colin wrote:

   FEB, (that reminds me, no more Black History, I guess, awww)

   I am really, REALLY confused by your argument. Firstly, no one called anyone a “sellout”, puh-leez don’t use that term like that if it wasn’t said, it’s quite loaded and like a really hard rubber bullet, it could hurt someone.

   Next…ly, you talk about how you agree that, apparently, some Asians are being “misguided” (that WAS used–by you) into harming the anti-racist efforts and treating other minorities with suspicion. Am I wrong?

   Then, oddly you go on to talk about how other minority groups, oh no wait, just blacks, just blacks, say or imply a feeling of disappointment in Asians who are “too eager” (your words again) to join with whites against other minorities.

   My question is, were you getting to a point or stating something for no reason, or are you just trying to get into my mind to probe for my juicy brain secrets? Other than those three, I can’t get why you posted that at all.

   Posted 01 Mar 2007 at 11:11 pm ¶

8. Colin wrote:

   I was wrong — using Ctrl + F, I found Rob used it. Shame on me.

   Posted 01 Mar 2007 at 11:12 pm ¶

9. kim wrote:

   Sewere, Colin, Rob:

   Why are we always here, here in this place?

   Feb: back off with your incendiaries. how do you further anything that Rob (often) seeks to say, and does so without your second tier mucking of the waters.

   Sewere: why , why, why?

   Posted 02 Mar 2007 at 12:46 am ¶

10. FEB wrote:

    Kim,

    What exactly have I said you find so incendiary? You think I’m rabble-rousing just because I agree with certain aspects of what Rob says?

    Let’s ask Carmen what she thinks…

    The article about the Chinese NYU student participating in “Find the Illegal Immigrant,” is an example of white conservatives making common cause with some minorities who are oblivious to history or the impact of their actions. Think about Asians who made coalitions with neo-cons the like of Newt Gingrich in opposition to affirmative action, don’t you think blacks and Latinos have taken notice of this?

    I don’t know if you are a minority, but regardless, don’t you find this sort of alliance the least bit suspicious?

    Posted 02 Mar 2007 at 4:26 pm ¶

11. FEB wrote:

    Colin,

    1. What does Black History month have to do with my post? Are you assuming I’m black? Should I assume that you’re Asian or White?

    2. I was addressing Sewere, not you. I wasn’t trying to find out what’s inside your head; I’m not sure I want to know.

    3. If you think I am so wrong about articulating how some Asians have no sense of solidarity with other minorities, then make a case for why they aren’t, instead of making personal ridicule. There’s plenty of history and documented cases (such as this NYU student) to corroborate my point. And, the fact that you choose to taunt me instead of formulating a rational argument, says more about you than it does about me.

    Posted 02 Mar 2007 at 4:33 pm ¶

12. kim wrote:

    Feb:
    “I have read countless postings by blacks, some of them on this very Web site, describing how they feel letdown by Asians who are far too eager to side with whites; even to the point of dismantling civil rights policies. These things cannot and should not be glossed over.

    Kim:
    Feb, this is one of the types of incendiaries I am talking about, and, specifically, in relationship to your effort to bolster an argument forwarded by Rob, where he ISN’T harping on what he finds distasteful about Blacks.

    The first part of the statements in response to Sewere stood for themselves, but then when you take notice that (as has happened elsewhere) Sewere takes issue with Rob’s predeliction for making an Asian activist mode vs. African-American (or Black) activist mode which does not easily allow for Blacks to hear the positive spin (due to construction, or placement within the whole, I’m not quite sure).

    There are times when I’ve thought a conversation was being moved along, where one point of digression, or someone’s feeling rankled (in this case it was Sewere and me, though I kept it brief, and Rob responded in a manner that at least made clear the prior statement) by another’s comment would be best served if we didn’t all jump in, adding the final bit of ’spark’.

    Here, I thought your final statements, excerpted above, could well have been stated by Rob, if he’d wanted to, as he has when he’s felt the need. Obviously, he did not take that tack here, for his own reasons.

    I would like to know when those types of feelings have been expressed here, and will do some looking, though I have to say there must be a search mode for discussions easier than that which I use…takes me some time.

    And, of course, let it be said that anyone expressing such self-serving and anachronistic sentiments as to push for a repeal of immigration numbers targeted at Asians, does NOT represent large members of a community of people seeking to organize and coalesce for extended liberties and protections for not only Americans,but for our fellow human being. No, they must not be glossed over, nor are they seriously entertained, want you to know.

    Posted 02 Mar 2007 at 8:30 pm ¶

13. FEB wrote:

    Kim,

    Are you an APA activist?

    I was not aware of the contentious history between Rob and Sewere (taking you at your word), and even if I were, it’s irrelevant.

    I don’t see how my account of having noticed negative opinions from blacks about what they perceive as Asian complicity in their disenfranchisement is of a provocative nature. If these sentiments exist (which they do), shouldn’t you be using this as an opportunity for introspection and learning where these feelings come from?

    Believe me; I understand the exasperation felt when all the good done by APA activists is sabotaged by racist louts and sycophants. The problem is that there is still too much disunity among Asian Americans and the community hasn’t figured out why the likes of Kenneth Eng, Wesley Chan, and Michelle Malkin, come across as bonafide representatives.

    Instead getting defensive and telling me to shut-up, why not use this topic as a platform to debate whether these feelings are justified or not; after all, isn’t this the American way?

    Posted 03 Mar 2007 at 12:00 am ¶

14. Colin wrote:

    FEB,

    How did I relate your post to Black History Month? “FEB” contains, in correct order, the first three letters of February, which (tada!) is Black History Month. How did I assume you were black? Why should you assume I’m Asian or white?

    Whether you addressed me or not is irrelevant. I actually was trying to be nice and funny when I talked about getting into my head. I’m sorry to have made offensive comments, though, since it seems you have come out on the defensive.

    I mean, you talk of personal ridicule from ME, and yet I’ve not used negative terms against you, as of yet, while you’ve tried to make me look like I’m using an ad hom argument, which I am not doing, and you insulted either my intelligence or my sanity, and that’s despicable of you. (”I wasn’t trying to find out what’s inside your head; I’m not sure I want to know.”)

    To be sure, all I did do was ask an honest question: Did you actually try to make an argument or not?

    You took my question and you made a fake argument out of it; that I was arguing AGAINST your supposed position that “some Asians have no sense of solidarity with other minorities”. I was confused, as it seemed that you didn’t have a point. You said I disagreed with you, and I did not, nor did I show that I was in disagreement. I hope you see my posts for what they are, not what you want to believe they are.

    Posted 03 Mar 2007 at 12:26 am ¶

15. kim wrote:

    Feb:
    “…even to the point of dismantling civil rights policies….”

    You know, Feb, I think this one line, following its semicolon as it did, threw me, and I misread the agents of this action.

    That was my mistake.

    No, conversation should never be stifled. Was that a shut up? That is downright rude. I don’t get to talk to you that way, and wouldn’t actually ever say ’shut up,’ (were we in a room together) so do know that I was really asking you if could step aside, and let us have Rob and Sewere’s voices - both astute, both strident - hammer out the details.

    The resonant aspects of an examination of the ‘flip side’ of …Asian complicity…did not jump out at me as reason enough to introduce that which could be inferred from Rob’s speech, and I would, true, rather not give voice to an equally self-defeating, knee-jerk rhetoric on the part of Blacks that overlooks, and fails to examine, the exponential pressures and dynamics of a perennial outsider-American community, which may not always act, or speak, in a way that forwards progress and breaks down the barriers between the groups.

    That I would rather not give voice to it here, in this thread, at this juncture, does not mean that I don’t examine and discuss it, and wasn’t a hush, so much as a serious, ‘why now?’
    *********

    An aside: The FEB/Black History Month thing was almost a Pavlovian/Haiku response on Colin’s part, I would think. I read his (post #14) response to you as an ‘excuse me,’ at the outset, though HE IS BUGGING OUT COMPLETELY in the long version.

    Posted 03 Mar 2007 at 2:12 pm ¶

16. FEB wrote:

    Colin,

    If I mistook your post as a taunt, then sorry… my bad. However, I still feel that your post was an intended slight and it wasn’t funny at all. As for my username “FEB,” that has nothing to do with February… it’s a name I use on other blogs. I suppose I could have chosen a different name, but what the hell… I prefer consistency.

    Okay, just to clarify my intention on this statement…

    “Some Asians have no sense of solidarity with other minorities.”

    That was a comment in reference to a perception voiced by some blacks and Latinos. This negative view of Asians seems to be reinforced whenever you have incidences like the one at NYU, where a Chinese American student participates in a racially provocative publicity stunt, largely organized by conservative whites.

    I don’t think Rob should broad brush all Asians as “sellouts.” I believe there is a growing number of Asians who are becoming better educated and developing a more sophisticated view on race relations.

    I just want the Asian American community to acknowledge that these feelings are out there, and we should take this opportunity for introspection and ask ourselves, “Why are these feelings still being manifested in the black and Latino communities, and what can we do about them?”

    On the other hand, blacks and Latinos also need to have some introspection and ask themselves, “Are we doing things that harm our relations with Asian Americans?” Issues like anti-Asian violence, Eddie Murphy’s stereotyping, and Shaq’s “ching chong” taunts should be examined. Blacks and Latinos also need to understand that the Asian American community is not monolithic; attitudes about race can be very different between 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generations.

    My post is basically a comment and an appeal for all sides to have some introspection before going and the defensive and blasting each other with arguments of “My shit stinks less than yours.” That’s all… no big mystery here.

    Posted 03 Mar 2007 at 3:45 pm ¶

17. FEB wrote:

    From post #15

    “…examination of the ‘flip-side’ of …Asian complicity …not …enough reason to introduce that… and I would,… rather not give voice to an equally self-defeating, knee-jerk rhetoric on the part of Blacks that overlooks, and fails to examine, the exponential pressures and dynamics of a perennial outsider-American community, which may not always act, or speak, in a way that forwards progress and breaks down the barriers between the groups.”

    “… does not mean… I don’t want to examine and discuss it, and wasn’t a hush, so much as a serious ‘why now.’”

    Kim,

    If not now, when? At what point to you intend on addressing it?

    It’s not often that Asian/black or Asian/Latino contentions surface in public discourse; most of it tends to be white/non-white issues. So, given the relative scarcity of opportunities to address this topic, I disagree with you… this IS the moment.

    How can we address the dynamics contained in the sentiments expressed by Rob, if we don’t examine them when the opportunity arises? In my view, deferment in this case is the same as relegation to eventual obscurity.

    If you feel that black critics often fail to see how Asian Americans are adversely affected by the racial hierarchy, then by all means- - please, go ahead and voice them. Why should that be a detriment to advancement of race relations? Maybe these critics aren’t fully aware of the dynamics you mention, and you might be doing them a service by educating them; provided you express your views sensibly and in good faith. If they become belligerent, then you they are either narrow-minded or participating in bad faith.

    Posted 04 Mar 2007 at 11:12 pm ¶

18. FEB wrote:

    Oops, my bad editing…

    I meant… “If they become belligerent, then you know they are either narrow-minded or bad faith participants.”

    Posted 05 Mar 2007 at 1:34 am ¶

19. kim wrote:

    FEB–

    I actually like that last statement, as I seek to express my discontent, and disappointment, with people who ultimately turn out to want to voice only their issues and concerns, and are willing to undermine, contradict, or minimize the general human struggle for recognition of each person’s basic dignity.

    I’ll borrow it, thank you.

    The discussion does get done, even here at Racialicious. And I’m in there arguing, pointing out salient points of intersecting travails and triumphs, and seeking to give a call to an examination of a different, less self-serving perspective than that which may seem to be the prevailing sentiment in a thread.

    FEB, I just didn’t think that 1.) in this thread,
    and 2.) with this commenter, and further 3.)not with the considered nature of the discontent expressed by the next commenter,
    4.) all for the reasons of considering something you said you didn’t know was a condition of the history of comments between them, though your statements (history of contention between the two) would probably better describe my own history with the commenter, and not that of Sewere’s.

    In short: just didn’t see how it was the right time, right place. But we disagree.

    Posted 09 Mar 2007 at 1:03 am ¶

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