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1. Sumpin’ Turrrrble: SNL’s Keenan Thompson Performs Minstrel Act at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 09 Mar 2008 at 7:32 pm

   […] Peterson wrote on this phenomenon in a piece entitled “Real Women (of color) Have Curves” : . . . the whole idea of large black women as a stereotype has unfortunately already come to […]

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1. Kai wrote:

   Good point about “women of color” apparently not including Asians. I suppose, to build on the negative racist sexist stereotypes that we’ve got going here, that if black women are large divas, and white women are delicate willows, then Asian women are wilting flower sex servants with no agency or voice whatsoever. So much so that Givhan simply disappears them from any existence worthy of discussion in an article about the bodies of women of color.

   FYI Sylvia and Blackamazon also tag-teamed this article with a delightful clarity and gusto.

   Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 10:30 am ¶

2. ren wrote:

   Wow, I love that final comment by Badflubug. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in the company of women fretting about being endomorphic and working out /dieting to get that sexy ectomorphic body type. But I’d make the claim that a majority of people… I’d even say the majority of reality in this universe doesn’t rely on physiological principles to define their body composition, especially one’s considered by the science community as obsolete (a minor issue for the educated who have a clue). Not sure how a scientific basis undermines the point of that article, especially since it revolved around race politics and not biology. Food for thought perhaps, but I won’t be getting obese on it… that’s for certain. Which is good because I have a very fragile sense of self.

   Latoya pointed out an important issue, I’m glad she did, concerning the avoidance of Asian Women. As a male I customarily (instinctively?) avoid questions concerning women and weight issues, but I always find it strange that discussing body image concerning colored women revolves around a black v. white issue. I’m not saying it ignores Asian American women but it, like many other facets of society, gives a pass to Asian American women to which they readily accept. Their willingness to gloss over the issue of body image concerning Asian American women (non-Asians and Asian Americans alike) is very disheartening. If anything, I think the issue with weight and Asian American women is even more dangerous than other minorities. African Americans and Hispanics tend to receive immunity because the society at large believes that it’s more readily accepted and/or preferred within that ethnic community, to an extent… it has a positive association. Being rail thin in the Asian community is less of an indication of a health problem or bad habits, thus a greater chances of body damaging habits to go unnoticed.

   While I agree that the standards of thinness prevails heavily amongst Asian Americans, mainstream culture is only partly to blame. Like all types of tyranny, for the most part it’s often self-imposed. Asian Americans have a serious issue with understanding what constitutes being an “Asian American”, a distinctive community separate from being Asian. You’re not Asian in the sense you’ve been reared on crappy American food, crappy American popular culture, and a crappy American Education. For the most part you’re an American of Asian descent. A title that many Asians happily accept. We all know those Asians who avoid all instance of their culture/history. Their avoidance is fine, it’s their choice. However I find it strikingly odd that when it comes to their bodies, how they should look comparable to others, foreign Asians become the focal point. In this instance acculturation isn’t deemed a factor. Women in the US should look exactly like their Asian counterpart… because they are all Asian right? Now ethnicity becomes an issue and nativity goes out the window.

   Why the inevitable bond to Asia, at this seemingly unconscious level? Consider the certain mysteria that surrounds Asian women from the viewpoint of some males. Many Asians have heard the old “well they’re just not like American women” remark, a less strident/supposedly complimentary form of the “exotic” comment. Regardless that they might have been born and raised in America in the Midwest, it’s attributed to Asian American women a component of that “exotic foreignness” appeal. Asian women are being forced to play two sides, one the thin “customary” traditional Asian unscathed by a US culture (that results in dare we say… overconfidence) and two, not be an off-putting foreigner but a fully assimilated US citizen. An overweight Asian American women carries a certain stigma, it loses you that foreign appeal. Your weight issue is obviously a byproduct of tossing your culture and becoming fully assimilated into white society. That connection with the foreign Asian ideal causes Asian Americans to concern themselves with establishing a genetic precursor that determines how they should physically look. The African American community in America has the capacity to establish their own unique standards because they define themselves as a unique community unlike Asian Americans, you don’t often hear black women complaining about why they don’t have the comparable figure of a female native of Gambia. Yet Asian American women think Asian women are naturally thin, ignoring the fact that their Asian counterparts experience completely different eating patterns, completely different diets, and intake different types of food. It becomes a serious case of ethnicity modifying their behavior.

   Or I might be completely and totally wrong… take it as my opinion only.

   Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 11:04 am ¶

3. Nadia wrote:

   “Your weight issue is obviously a byproduct of tossing your culture and becoming fully assimilated into white society.”

   ren, i think this is a really interesting idea.

   this topic was also blogged about here.

   Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 11:47 am ¶

4. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

   I can definitely attest that Asian standards of thinness are far less forgiving than those of whites, even.

   Ren, interesting points. But I wouldn’t overlook the significance of the feedback Asian-American women get from their families.

   I’m not exactly Asian-American, having moved here for college only, so I invite our Asian-American female readers to weigh in here. (hehe no pun intended)

   But I can say that when I was growing up in Hong Kong, the heaviest criticisms I ever got for my weight came from my own family - not “the media.”

   Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 12:05 pm ¶

5. Rachel wrote:

   I left my comments on this article over at the link Nadia suggested.

   One of my criticisms of the article is that it acts as if male perferences have no inlfuence of women’s acceptance of their bodies. I also suggested two reasons why Black and Latina actresses may make up a higher percent of of the larger women……

   Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 1:04 pm ¶

6. susanc wrote:

   I can agree with Asian standards of thinness being harsher! Amongst non-Asian & Asian American friends and co-workers, I’m considered slender.

   But from the Asians I know (especially family) I always get, “I’m not saying you’re fat, but you could stand to lose weight…” But those who know I’m half caucasian don’t criticize my weight as harshly as they do full Asians. According to my uncle it’s my “American genes” that are to blame.

   Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 1:28 pm ¶

7. LM wrote:

   Wow — deep stuff… and thanks to both Robin Givhan and then Latoya Peterson for what I consider some fairly good framing of these issues. For what it’s worth, I think that Givhan in particular is taking some undue flak for what essentially are limitations of her form — a short to medium-length newspaper column. I think her reporting/analysis is fairly straightforward, identifying rather than perpetuating stereotypes.

   Bottom line, the “ideal” female shape, in any culture, is an unfair weight, no pun intended, for any woman to bear. Figuring out what’s healthy, without strict attention to weight or shape, is more important. As a longtime sports fan it strikes me even in major-league baseball, for example, there’s a tremendous diversity of body shapes/types/etc., but players are judged less on how they look compared to how well their body serves them… and the same phenomenon is occurring more and more in women’s sports as it gains more of a foothold (in women’s basketball over the last decade, see Courtney Paris, Lisa Leslie, Diana Taurasi, Lindsay Whalen, Nikki Teasley, Ticha Penicheiro, Theresa Weatherspoon, etc. for many different, albeit taller on average, body types ).

   Mind you, the talking and stereotyping persists in these sports, and it’s more prevalent for women, but it’s less important.

   Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 1:37 pm ¶

8. Sylvia wrote:

   I’m not saying it ignores Asian American women but it, like many other facets of society, gives a pass to Asian American women to which they readily accept. Their willingness to gloss over the issue of body image concerning Asian American women (non-Asians and Asian Americans alike) is very disheartening. If anything, I think the issue with weight and Asian American women is even more dangerous than other minorities. African Americans and Hispanics tend to receive immunity because the society at large believes that it’s more readily accepted and/or preferred within that ethnic community, to an extent… it has a positive association. Being rail thin in the Asian community is less of an indication of a health problem or bad habits, thus a greater chances of body damaging habits to go unnoticed.

   As a black woman, I can relate to this sentiment about how pernicious stereotyping about body images can get in the way of health. Another reason why that article was particularly problematic that I forgot to note is promoting this concept that unilaterally all black women are large — and unhealthily so — glosses over the devastating problems with eating disorders among African-American women. And there are anorexic, bulimic, and binge eating black women out there, but you would never suspect it from reading this article. The same obliviousness extends to the omission of Asian and Asian-American women and any issues with weight they may have. So “awareness” of this sort is still not helpful.

   Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 2:05 pm ¶

9. Latoya Peterson wrote:

   Wow -

   Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Like I said, there are so many places to go with this issue.

   To Kai and Ren, yes I thought it was strange that Asian women were omitted. As a black woman, I must admit, I am not sure I would have even noticed the oversight on first read if it weren’t for the fact that one of my close friends is Asian-American. She opened my eyes to a lot of issues she faces, so I went into the article holding her issues (constant struggle with weight, being viewed as an “assimilated asian”) in the back of my mind. Ren, that was an especially good point with the frame of reference - we (African American women) do not compare ourselves to African celebrities, so that is something to think about.

   Rachel -

   Good response post. (And thanks for the link Nadia!) Your point about Maxim and King is dead-on. Not to play one group against the other, but I’ve often wondered what was worse - to have to be thin (the white mainstream ruling standard) or to have to have a specific body type (the hourglass or pear). Two of my close female friends are thin black women, and they both have scars from all the times black men have rejected them, saying they were too skinny.

   LM - Thanks for pointing out Givhan’s limitations. It is a difficult thing to take up someone ELSE’s banner and understand their experience too. Givhan may have not had any experience with the Asian American experience in fashion or with the restraints placed on Asian women by their culture.

   I think I’ll be exploring African-American images and perceptions in terms of weight and sexuality a bit more in another piece.

   Carmen, any ideas who could write companion pieces for the latinas, asian women, and caucasian women?

   Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 2:16 pm ¶

10. Lin wrote:

    I second the comment that Asian standards of thinness are harsher. I’m full Asian, and I always dread visiting my parents and relatives when I’ve gained weight because their first or second comment is always about my weight. Remarking on someone’s weight gain also doesn’t seem as taboo. I’ve had full Asian co-workers comment on my weight when I’ve gained weight. Then among non-Asian Americans, they always talk about how tiny and skinny I am.

    Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 2:26 pm ¶

11. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    > Carmen, any ideas who could write companion pieces for the latinas, asian women, and caucasian women?

    Anyone here want to step up?

    Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 2:36 pm ¶

12. Kyla wrote:

    “They are not mentioned anywhere in the article, though I would venture to say that the standards of thinness applied to Asian-American women are more tyrannical than those applied by mainstream culture.”

    This is a really good point. I also found it interesting that the article mentioned America Ferrera, but that so many young Latina actresses are held to similar standards as Asian-American actresses.

    Something I brought up in my blog was the obsession with J.Lo’s “big” (i.e., small but existant) butt. When she first started getting famous, I remember that it was all that people talked about, and I can’t imagine that was done to “celebrate her curves” so much as to criticize the uppity Latina who thought she was pretty but man, look at her huge butt. (That was tongue in cheek.) And girls like Jessica Alba get exoticized because they aren’t anything even resembling fat, but aren’t anorexically thin enough to hit “white” standards of beauty.

    It seems to be the same with a lot of women of Pacific Islander descent, too; if you’re young and thin, you get exoticized as hula dancers or whatever, but if you aren’t thin (or just thick enough to be exotic), you get relegated to character acting and stuff.

    Meanwhile, Asian American celebs and white actresses are held to impossible, dangerous standards of thinness.

    The standards of beauty in this country are unrealistic and if you don’t fit them as a mainstream actress, you’re going to either be exoticized or face pressure to drop weight (or both). It’s a catch-22 for all actresses; white and Asian American celebrities just have a little less wiggle room than most women of color because of the way they are exoticized.

    Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 3:09 pm ¶

13. Kyla wrote:

    And thanks for the link, Nadia.

    There’s a really good breakdown over here, too.

    Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 3:13 pm ¶

14. tayari wrote:

    I have always been a little unconvinced by the idea that black women are “comfortable with thier bodies” just because they don’t have the same hang up (weight) that white women are thought to have.

    Black women’s body anxiety is frequently represented by HAIR. I would argue that black women spend as much time worrying about making thier hair acceptable as white women do worrying about being acceptably small.

    Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 4:31 pm ¶

15. girl stop wrote:

    Traditionally, black girls have had a higher level of self-acceptance in the U.S.–Dr. Gail Wyatt’s 1997 study Stolen Women: Reclaiming Our Sexualitybears this out. One of the primary reasons is that self-image has been passed down through mothers, grandmothers, aunts, and other women in the family–not having more media standards actually worked in our favor. However, her more recent research indicates that, with the advent of music video culture in which black women’s bodies proliferate, black girls are moving more toward the “norm” of eating disorders.

    Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 6:34 pm ¶

16. Rachel wrote:

    Hand claps for Tayari’s point about hair, and while we are at it don’t forget skin color, which seems to be an issue for women of color all around the world.

    Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 6:49 pm ¶

17. Nadia wrote:

    “I’m full Asian, and I always dread visiting my parents and relatives when I’ve gained weight because their first or second comment is always about my weight. Remarking on someone’s weight gain also doesn’t seem as taboo.”

    this is the same with Arabs. no one in my family has ever hesitated to let me know that they think i should lose weight. i think that has more to do with Arab culture allowing for everyone to be in everyone else’s business than with standards of beauty, although that is part of it.

    Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 7:08 pm ¶

18. eric daniels wrote:

    I rea this article and ad the repsones and I thought it was interesting of the comments section, The ‘woman of color said she dated

    I am a woman of color who doesnt feel confident with her curves. Why? Because the majority of men I date are not of color and they have a different standard by which they define beauty. The result: me beating my body into submission, constant self-loathing, and a lack of confidence to feel beautiful in the white world.

    I don’t want to sound mean, but lose weight then if you want a man “not of color” (i can assume white) that sounds weak , whine about the majority society’s standards , if you perfer dating white men then do what’s reguired in that ethnic scene to fit in. I love women of all shapes and sizes as long as they are intelligent, senstive, caring about themselves and the world around them. I think Jennifer Hudson and Jennifer Love Hewitt are sexy in their own way.

    Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 7:43 pm ¶

19. tiptop wrote:

    As a black woman (African living in america) who is petite and skinny, I’ve got to say I even don’t worry about my hair. I wear braids or I curl my hair and wear a hairband, I look pretty either way (actually prettier with my real hair, but I couldn’t be bothered to waste time caring for it, hence the braids), and don’t worry about my body at all. In fact all I get are compliments from Americans of all races. In Africa however I was miserable about my skinny body and short stature and wished I was more like J Hud in body shape. Moving to America, I am envied and admired, I couldn’t care less what the African standard of beauty is anymore.

    Posted 21 Feb 2007 at 8:32 pm ¶

20. Tereza wrote:

    This discussion brought back all kinds of memories. For example, I remembered that a friend of mine, who is Asian, confided in me how at work other female Asian coworkers admonished her for gaining too much weight while PREGNANT. It got so bad that my friend felt too self-conscious to eat lunch or snack at work. On another occasion, I remember listening to an Asian woman’s advice for staying slim after childbirth. She said the new mother should bind her stomach tightly for weeks. Perhaps this ties in with the posts here which talked about the harshness of the Asian beauty standards and how this is communicated from woman to woman, from family member to another.

    I remember being told by my European grandmother just a couple of years ago, “If you get any bigger than this, it won’t be a pretty sight.” Yikes! How traumatazing! And on my last trip to Europe a complete stranger, though a friend of a friend, basically told me I better get to exercising. I guess I wasn’t used to this kind of bluntness - I haven’t really encountered it in my circles in the U.S.

    As far as models and weight standards, I came across this article today:

    “The Government is threatening to legislate unless Italian designers abide by the voluntary industry code, which says thin models should have to show a medical certificate proving they are not dangerously underweight.”

    More here.

    Posted 22 Feb 2007 at 1:16 am ¶

21. bertie wrote:

    I don’t know if I completely buy the premise. I think the issue depends on which black women/women of color being discussed.

    Sex symbols like Beyonce, Janet Jackson, and Tyra have already commented on pressures they’ve felt to get thin (Beyonce for her role in Austin Powers; both Janet and Tyra have addressed photos all over the tabloids proclaiming how “fat” they’ve become). I’m pretty sure if Halle Berry, Naomi Campbell, J-lo, or Gabrielle Union gained significant weight, their weight “struggle” would be a topic of controversy, and they’d be pressured to slim down. (if they haven’t already).

    I think it’s different for stars like J-Hud (who I personally think is sexy), Latifah, or Monique because sex appeal is not an essential part of their public persona. And thus the pressure to be thin is not as great.

    Posted 22 Feb 2007 at 3:14 pm ¶

22. Lin wrote:

    Didn’t Beyonce also have to lose weight for her role in Dreamgirls?

    Posted 23 Feb 2007 at 1:08 pm ¶

23. lee wrote:

    I have a beef with the highly pressumptuous notion that somehow full-figured, having a big butt, and being over wieght are the same thing. There are women who are tall and weighty by genetics and are not over wieght. There are women who have large butts genetically, also, and are not overwieght. And then there are girls who are obese. Don’t get it twisted men of Afro-centric descent (African American, Puerto Rican, Jamaican, etc.) generally don’t like obese or overwieght female physiques. Its just that from a Eurocentric standpoint, thats what it looks like, because the prominent image in that culture, is being noticeably thin and having a flat butt. Now I think all women should be happy with the way God made them, still I lets not go out on a limb and suggest that someone is being racist because they are making a distinction between different standards of beauty or by saying that a woman who is physically fit and has a big butt is overweight.

    Posted 02 Jul 2007 at 9:11 pm ¶

24. Faith wrote:

    I would give anything to have a nice round butt I get so embarrassed because I don’t. My pants don’t fit right and most of our black men adore a woman with a nice round booty. I am a black woman, but wasn’t blessed with the roundness of my sista’s and I don’t have the money for a butt implant, if I did I wouldn’t hesitate to get one. I know I should be thankful for what god has given me and I am, I only wished he had blessed me in that way. I know medically that a woman that has a tiny or small waist line and a big butt is not in danger of getting heart disease. I’ve also noticed that our sista’s of african decent have those such butt’s, I am of european decent, I guess. Thank you for reading from a sista with not such a round booty…lol

    Posted 30 Mar 2008 at 7:51 pm ¶

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