A skeptic’s view of Freedom Writers

by guest contributor Sylvia, originally published at The Anti-Essentialist Conundrum

freedom writersAt first, I absolutely refused to see Freedom Writers. It looked like yet another feel good white-teacher-saves-colored-students with-much-rejoicing in-the-land-of-Nod movie. I mean, the narrative is another twist of the American Dream: ignore the circumstances around you and focus on yourself, and you’ll poise yourself for success and improvement. Rampant individualism abounds. You see people you once characterized as your people doing The Wrong Thing, and you set off to do The Right Thing without those people. And movies like Freedom Writers tell you in veiled ways that that’s okay, and the world cuts off when you leave it outside the fences of your school. The real world of deserting husbands, gang violence, and homelessness wipes clean away. As usual, my analysis is spoiler ridden because I just don’t give a damn. :-p

Teacher Erin Gruwell (Hillary Swank) is a first time teacher assigned to freshman English with a group of students from four distinct backgrounds: black, Cambodian, Latino, and white. (Well…there’s only one white kid, and he feels courageous for being around people of color once Gruwell unites them all in their humanity, but not before when anti-white sentiment emerges in the classroom.) Everyone in the class has some affiliation to gangs and gang violence. Each group sequestered itself from the other groups, and they ridiculed each other and fought in the courtyards. The (white) department head of the school informs us and Gruwell early that after voluntary integration at Wilson High, 75% of the students who made Wilson an A-list school have departed, and all that’s left are classrooms full of kids with whom she doesn’t trust the school’s ample resources. She also stubbornly adheres to the idea that they have no desire to learn. The (white) honors teacher reveals his own bigotry when Gruwell asks him to help her acquire resources for her students. She goes over their heads to the (black) director, who gives her the go-ahead on many of her projects after witnessing her ambition. You go girl!

So what does Gruwell do? First, she conveniently finds a way to grab the students’ attention that killing people because of the color of their skin is, like, so wrong. A Latino student draws a caricature of one of the black students: profile, bulging eyes, huge lips…a common racist caricature. The black student, initially the class clown, sits utterly humiliated and crying. Gruwell takes the picture, and she asks the class if they knew that Jewish people faced extreme, dehumanizing caricatures before being systematically exterminated? She asked each group that if the others did not exist, would they feel better off? And of course, the class readily said, “Yeah yeah yeah!”

Her “in” was the German-run Holocaust. But before she heavily relied on teaching the Holocaust, she bought the class a young adult book about gang life. The class buttered up a little before she got into hardcore teaching of Holocaust history. Then the class burst in sympathy, indignation, and worked on turning their lives around before creating Little Holocausts of their own. Gruwell reminded them that participating in gang violence wouldn’t garner them any worldwide recognition like Anne Frank; they’d only become statistics. So why not become positive statistics?

But, you remember, the department head didn’t grant Gruwell any books, so she worked two jobs to pay for her own resources. Full of new teacher idealism, Gruwell takes her students to a museum of tolerance, fancy restaurants, and she arranges for Holocaust survivors to share their stories of survival. The movie specifically addresses the Jewish angle of the Holocaust. The class instantly gained perspective. Never mind that the Holocaust was institutionalized violence, and the many instances of institutionalized violence and oppression that each of those groups represented in those classes face in America. You get the air that Gruwell may have feared an oppression pissing match amongst her already divided students. Dialogues about internalized racist perceptions and reactive violence would be too “white woman preachin’ to the little people of color about themselves.” Or maybe their own problems and familiarity with gang violence, domestic violence, poverty, and broken homes weren’t relevant beyond her awareness of them through their diaries because she needed them, as her first class, to learn English from her.

Another narrative arises when a black sophomore switches from the honors class to Gruwell’s classroom. The jerky honors teacher, you see, asked her to share The Black Perspective on The Color Purple, and she hated the tokenization. The department head of the school argued with her, but she wasn’t willing to sacrifice her identity and her self-respect for sitting in an honors classroom. She transfers; life is sweet. It’s about the only real treatment of someone finding “proper” pride in her ethnic identity in the whole damned movie. And you realize that perhaps the others weren’t smart enough to articulate this pride through anything but violence. Civilize those kids, Gruwell!

So anyway: after being well fed, coddled, and spoiled with new resources to show that they matter, the class develops an infantile dependence on Gruwell as their deliverer (with the exception of this black female student who realizes that the class and Gruwell both need to move on). They grow together as a multicultural family, and outside problems all disappear.

Remember that loner Latino student who always appeared as if he would pull out a gun? Well, the truth is he’s homeless, and being in that classroom and sharing fancy dinners and doing the electric slide with his classmates made him feel like he had a home.

You think the black student is going to relapse into selling drugs because his brother gets 15 years to life in prison and the justice system ain’t fair? Psyche! He’s gonna be just fine. Just a slight bout of self-doubt that Gruwell cures with an expletive-sprinkled earthy invective for him to look out for himself and be honest about it. You’re crimpin’ her style, man. He cries a little and gets over it. As Emeril would say, “Bam!”

You think in the corresponding narrative the Latina gangbanger will stick with her own and condemn an innocent black kid of the murder of one of her Cambodian classmate’s friends? Not after the class works hard to raise money to bring Miep Geiss, the Polish-born secretary who hid the Franks during the Nazi occupation of The Netherlands. She tells them that they have to do things because they are right. And she points the finger at one of her own gang members, and the innocent black kid goes free. The only reason she’s not dead she is her father’s daughter, a father who we learned is sitting in jail for nothing but mysteriously pulls a lot of gang clout. She relocates to live with her aunt, but miraculously stays enrolled at Wilson High and asks Gruwell if she can stay at the school late to finish her homework. The end of the movie culminates in Gruwell saving the day. She and the class cling to each other through all four years of high school despite the objections of the school’s leadership, and Gruwell follows some of them to college, even.

And oh, the leadership objects. The department head’s rivalry with Gruwell gets ugly. Battle of the white female teachers! Young fresh-faced “with it” teacher versus older, experienced, battle-hardened institutional mistress! She spews venom at Gruwell’s capabilities. She spouts rhetoric about the impracticality of Gruwell’s tactics. Against the backdrop of her spitting image (and this woman’s eyes nearly popped out of her head while she fumed and raged), the cool white male principal and the uncompromising white honors teacher sit composed and say what’s not going to happen with Gruwell. They occasionally check the fiesty department head for her…emotion. Both of them dominate the meeting with the black director about whether Gruwell can follow them through junior and senior year. She only taught freshman and sophomore year. Honestly, this scene could have functioned without him sitting there; the department head was telling him what to do, anyway. Such blatant rudeness, and when they go over his head to a higher-up white female superintendent, she’s slightly more composed. That arrogant black man who let Gruwell get away with so much in the first place…we’ll show him. Except the superintendent sides with Gruwell and the arrogant black man. Their judgment is sound. Department head buggers off forever after.

In the meantime, Gruwell loses her ambition-stinted, condescending white husband because she neglects him to working three jobs to pay for teaching resources. Her successes at work and her dedication make him depressed about his failed dreams to become an architect. He becomes bitter. She tells him she’ll support him if he goes back, but…well…umm…he just shouldn’t have to do it. You know? He’s…a white male. Damnit. Hell, she doesn’t even put out when he wants it anymore. She’s working. She’s paying more attention to her work than him! The nerve! He insults her work, suggesting that her students are still stupid; she only thinks they’re smart. This movie locks male passive-aggression directed at a successful working wife with insane accuracy. (Note that I’m not measuring success as financial, but as results-based — the movie gives an ambiguous air that the kids do get smarter. We don’t see the climactic standardized tests because the movie doesn’t bother with that filler. The students raised money to see Miep Geiss, people. They have screaming discussions about misogyny in mainstream rap music. They have to be smarter now.)

Gruwell gains the respect from her father who worked in the civil rights movement before but didn’t have an ounce of hope in those damned kids. She made them want to learn. He helps her with her trips and pick up what few pieces her husband leaves when he walks out of the door. She’s a teacher, damnit! Fuck the haters!

And that’s all this is about…right? Haters? Fuck the haters. Students say fuck the haters and the world disappears as they discover mainstream success. Gruwell says fuck the haters and uses the system to achieve her own ends as a teacher. Together, they say fuck the haters and share their stories. They share that they learned that all everyone needs to say is “fuck the haters,” and life will be good.

Except…isn’t that a little simplistic? Just assimilate, ignore what doesn’t bother you, and fuck it if it manages to creep in and disrupt your life? Meh, works for everyone else, and these students merge into the group of everyone else seamlessly with the help of a white woman who knows how to pimp the system. Yay, free thinking white woman for helping the kids of color conform. Yay white society for winning future examples of diversity for your company portfolios who laugh at your nigger jokes, say fuck the haters, and hate poor people maybe more than you do.

I think.

Well, isn’t this how it starts for some people?
Maybe I’m skeptical.

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  1. Half Nelson: what did you think? at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 20 Nov 2007 at 10:01 am

    [...] in seeing it because it seemed like a subversive reworking of the old angelic white teacher saves the ghetto genre. Subversive because the white teacher in this movie is addicted to [...]

Comments

  1. Aaron wrote:

    “The movie specifically addresses the Jewish angle of the Holocaust.”

    What do you mean by that?

  2. Sylvia wrote:

    That the movie focused mostly on the extermination of Jews, avoiding overt discussion of the other groups killed in the camps, etc. It’s probably a wise plot device because it shows the power of hate for the sake of being who you are, specifically.

    Also, generally, a Hollywood feel good movie would get its hands very dirty if it started discussing other minorities like Gypsies, homosexuals, Africans, the mentally and physically handicapped, and political dissidents. The politics of grief, victimization, and suffering…

  3. merq wrote:

    Great post, Sylvia. I bugged out when I saw the TV spot for this one, and stumbled over to e-mail Carmen about it. Glad you took the bullet for the rest of us by watching it.

  4. Sylvia wrote:

    Thanks. My mom wanted to see it, and I don’t think she was terribly impressed either. But she paid for my ticket :-p

  5. Miss B wrote:

    I am a middle school teacher. This past week, the NY State ELA exams took place. As a reward for their effort, the principal rented out a theater in East NY and took the entire school to see Freedom Writers. All teachers, of coursem had to accompany them. So, I ended up seeing a movie I swore I wouldn’t see. (I did read the Freedom Writers book, however. It’s good.)

    While my colleagues spent the whole time wiping tears from their eyes, and the students spent the entire time laughing, making out, and eating/throwing candy, I was cringing. True story or not… watching this movie made me feel like yelling “I hate white people” right along with the young Latina in the film.
    I felt insulted on so many fronts. As a Black educator to non-white kids with the same problems, working in a district that has no funds, feeling the immense amount of despair and bitterness that the NY public school system arouses, I felt taunted by the film. Like Hilary Swank (who, up until now, I thought was a decent actress) was staring at me and saying, “The white lady did it but you never will!” I kept saying “but this is based on a true story…” but the more I said it, the less it mattered. There is something inauthentic and degrading about this film. How easily all the students fit into their roles based on gener and skin color. Abused pretty girl. Token smart Black girl. Gang-banging negroes and Latinos. White boy who goes from ebing scared to being down. Trite and insulting, I wasn’t upset that my students were more interested in Mario’s acting skills than in the messages from the film.

  6. kim wrote:

    Miss B:

    There is something inauthentic and degrading about this film. How easily all the students fit into their roles…. Trite and insulting…”

    Wow. That just about wraps it up for me, though I’m not inclined to ever see it, anyway.

    That was powerful, Miss B.

    Sylvia: great job on this

  7. ren wrote:

    I’m curious about this. My issue isn’t questioning the brutality of the Holocaust, it’s the issue of evoking the Holocaust as a final resolve to race-based issues. Being Jewish is not a race, it’s a culture and even that is stretching it. At its core, it’s a religious belief. Yet this film’s appeal to the holocaust suggests it relates to the issue of race, while ignoring specifically race-based issues such as the LA riots, or American foreign policy and foreign intervention/colonialism … issues where there is no clear-cut side to root for. If they reference the Holocaust simply as an example of “hatred and the need for tolerance”, you could pick from history millions of examples where hatred was involved and had there been tolerance would have resulted in a brighter shinier hypothetical world. It seems to me they purposely choose the Holocaust, mainly because it’s an argument killer… what issue surrounding the genocide of Jews would one openly oppose, who exactly would voice the counter-argument. It’s an issue that allows for no opposing viewpoint. And sadly, many believe that if an issue kills debate and silences opposition… this must be taken as a “sign” of cohesion among the people. I find it odd when discussing issues of race and intolerance, especially the intolerance that stems from race, that white individuals that I know will often interject with the moral issues surrounding the holocaust. It was certainly intolerance and hatred but was that due to a visible recognition of racial factors? Or is this a weak attempt by white individuals to remind racial minorities that white people face intolerance as well? They certainly have faced it, but I wouldn’t be so quick to declare that a race issue. That’s my question, what makes the Holocaust a demonstrative argument when discussing issues of race?

  8. kim wrote:

    ren:
    It was certainly intolerance and hatred but was that due to a visible recognition of racial factors?

    I’m interested in this line of inquiry. So, while you do not pose it, directly, in the above question, do you mean for one to infer that, upon closer inspection, one might explore the hatred of the Jew as something that extended, or had its genesis, in something other than race/culture? And by such exploration, buttress the argument that there are deeper issues at work between the races/culture groups from which the kids in the film hail, and no simple branding of them as merely-raced-based will suffice?

  9. eric daniels wrote:

    I will not be seeing this movie, like every other “progressive movie” it is about the white savior who saves the (put racial sterotype here) at the end I just want to be entertained at the metroplex not bombarded with “messages’ whether by the so-called serious “hood films” like Meanace to Society or the liberal/conservative pablum like “Freedom Writers” or “The Pursuit of Happyness”.

    These films however well meaning, just simplifies complex social problems that took generations to bear on our society and just because one person like Gardner (I have read the book) was able through luck, will, education and being able to accept a redneck from texas calling him the n-word on every purchase of stock does not mean every black person can or should tolerate such treatment.

    Frankly as a black man in my 40’s at this time in my life, I just want to be entertained at the movies NOT by people who are out of touch and think that by taking children to a movieplex you are going to inspire them and teach them virtue. How about this country and it’s citizens admitting once and for all, they don’t want to educate poor Black and Hispanic children except to see them on the sports channels (so they can bitch about young black players showing off), singing, dancing, cooning and being the

    black buck
    big bootied loud-mouth ghetto hoochie
    no english- speaking big butt 10 kid having spanish chick
    speedy gonzales “patrichal” spanish dude

    This society has it’s model minorities like Andrew Hacker wrote in “Two Nations separate and Unequal” and it’s the Asians and educated immirgrants from various countries. Katrina comfirmed that for me in a nutshell. It is time for Afro- Americans to make some decisions in regards to living in this country. Whites (and others in this society)have made a decison on what type of black they like or will deal with…

    1. Oprah
    2. Cosby
    3. McWorther
    4. Flavor Flav
    5. New York
    6. Lil Jon
    7. Any number of Black Conservatives
    8. The boogie black liberal leaders
    9. Big Bad Black criminal
    10. Welfare single mother (crack addicted is cool also)

    Any black person who has an independent thought or doesn’t conform to these types or utters “colorblindness” or any other “P.C.” christian reglious types is doomed to be battling white privledge which is becoming a drag by the day. I hope you are inspired by these movies but at the end of the day, I would rather watch a..

    1. Fellini
    2. early Spike Lee movie
    3. Manga
    4. Foreign movies
    5. cartoons
    6. Stanley Kurbick

    movies give the “phony social engineering” movies (every single one of them) a rest.

  10. Lyonside wrote:

    Ren and Kim: you both have posed dissertation-worthy questions…

    I’m basing this on the article and the posts here, but here’s my contribution: the major problem with this is that the movie seems to be comparing ethnic/religious genocide (I’m getting there), with institutional low-level racism (I’m getting there) tied to other non-ethnic socioeconomic factors, and saying, in a nutshell, “Can’t we all just get along?” without asking the hard WHYs for any issue.

    I’m referring to the WWII Holocaust as ethnic/religious genocide simply because in most of Europe for centuries, some Jewish communities were not integrated with the Christian majority, both due to majority pressure and self-segregation – I’m guessing that such groups could qualify as their own ETHNICITY in some regards (in the meaning of having a culture, language, religion, traditions, and sometimes similar genetic background due to intermarriage ((unfortunately leading to a few genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs))). But there were many Jewish communities fully integrated and intermarried into the majority as well (in various times and places), and there were many secular Jews. So honestly, it’s a muddle that serves to show that “race” really is a social construction, because you could make similar arguments for almost any subgroup in a human population.

    I also get a little queasy comparing the systemic failures in the US urban framework with outright state-sponsored genocide (which, obviously, did not start with the Nazis, or didn’t even start against the Jewish people with the Nazis, what with 1500+ years of pogroms throughout Europe). What the kids in the movie (and lots of us in real life) face is a mix of non-racial socioeconomic factors (factories closing due to global changes, local taxes affecting businesses, rise in international drug trade) with institutional racism (slow response from government leaders to fix problems in “poor” areas, first responders with a slow response time, substandard housing and bias, etc.)

    Of course there are similarities between the two concepts that I’m sure the movie never gets into with its “Hate is Bad” mantra. Like how MONEY and POWER are the roots of most of these issues: the theft of Jewish property and goods (and other people implicated in the Holocaust) funded the Nazi war machine, and provided a scapegoat and pablum for both the German people and the conquered nations (”hey, we’re not as Aryan as the Germans, but at least we’re not Jewish!”). And the lack of money and power in the impoverished urban US environments dictates how much politicians and government officials are willing to do and capable of doing.

    Even with the best of intentions, it’s hard to get reelected on a campaign founded on higher taxes for infrastructure repairs to housing, schools, and roads; or on coercing businesses into neighborhoods while still having a free-market economy. And its impossible to solve the drug/crime/gang problems because the “inner city” environment shows us the end result, the symptoms, of the international drug trade, not the causes.

    But if that’s too complicated to fix in real life, it’s definitely too complicated for the movies. So a politician gets elected to be “tough on crime.” And socioeconomically disadvantaged teens are told, “stay in school , and you will overcome anything.”

    Heh. The More You Know.

  11. Miss B wrote:

    Thats it! It’s how the film simplifies/glosses over/straight out ignores the force behind the students’ situations. WHY are they homeless? WHY are they involved in gangs? WHY the “snitches get stiches” policy? WHY are they sexually and emotionally abused? WHY were they bused to Wilson? WHY did Mrs. Gruwell become a teacher?
    It’s too much to ask a Hollywood film to asnwer those questions, but they didn’t ask them.

    The more I think about it, the angrier I feel. 300 middle school students possibly left under the impression while white folks hate them, they need white folks to get by.

    This film joins a laundry list of reasons on why I believe in home-schooling or community schooling. I will be joining forces with like-minded people to educate mine.

  12. Miss B wrote:

    *if this is posted twice, my apologies…

    Thats it! It’s how the film simplifies/glosses over/straight out ignores the force behind the students’ situations. WHY are they homeless? WHY are they involved in gangs? WHY the “snitches get stiches” policy? WHY are they sexually and emotionally abused? WHY were they bused to Wilson? WHY did Mrs. Gruwell become a teacher?
    It’s too much to ask a Hollywood film to answer those questions, but they didn’t even ask them.
    The more I think about it, the angrier I feel. 300 middle school students possibly left under the impression while white folks hate them, they need white folks to get by.
    This film joins a laundry list of reasons on why I believe in home-schooling or community schooling. I will be joining forces with like-minded people to educate mine.

  13. ren wrote:

    (1)”while you do not pose it, directly, in the above question, do you mean for one to infer that, upon closer inspection, one might explore the hatred of the Jew as something that extended, or had its genesis, in something other than race/culture?”

    Absolutely, infer away. I would, considering I have trouble understanding how exactly being Jewish constitutes a different race. Certainly the hatred of Jews revolved around their being Jewish, their ethnic and cultural practices and beliefs distinguishing them from the majority. This however does not prompt me to see the holocaust as racial hatred… ethnic cleansing absolutely. My comments dealt specifically with race, not culture and I would prefer making the distinction since one does not necessarily pertain to the other. Koreans and Japanese are two different cultures, one race. Being American speaks of your culture not your race. Jews are a group of people who hold a particular religious belief, they are not a race. Neither are Mormons a race nor scientologists a race.

    If the Nazi’s murder of Jews was racial then what was the racial distinction between non-Jewish Germans and German Jews? Jews were certainly an ethnic minority, having cultural practices that differed from the Germans that composed the Nazi Party, however distinguishing them as racially different isn’t discernable by me.

    Certain individuals and perhaps this film as well, often mistake the issue of the Holocaust as “racial” due to the Nazi theory that proclaims themselves the “master race” and the Jews as an inferior race. What they don’t take into account (perhaps the film did, I didn’t see it) was that the justification for Nazi policies, this supposed “race” issue, were proposed by “scientists” of the theorist type and not scientists who rest on measurable empirical evidence and research. Thus this distinction between races that supposedly made one superior and the other inferior was never grounded in the scientific method and was accepted on no other ground than to justify Nazi policy and philosophy.

    If Nazism was purely white supremacy, if the supposed Aryan race was superior, why bomb the British and engage in war with Russia and murder so many European Slavs for being “inferior”? Well now it seems there are racial groups within the Aryan race and Nazi Germany is member to a specific race within a race that is superior than the others. And on it goes, the more contrived it becomes the less and less it moves away from racism as we understand it, to a tribal declaration of why we are great and why everyone else is an other and inferior.

    If you want to infer a possible genesis to this hatred there are a lot of things to consider apart from race. Ethnic cleansing, undesirables and social outcasts, economic considerations, post WW1 disparity and ideology, totalitarianism, religious hatred, fascism and police state, anti-Semitism, in-group/out-group tribalism, scapegoating, some kind of perceived historical wrong, idolatry and hero worship, but killing Jews because Nazi’s were racist… I’m not so sure about. The race issue of the holocaust was never really a race issue as it was more an ideological theory built upon no evidence apart from the rambling wants of an idiot dictator. Sure the policies contained the word “race” but it pertained less to race and more to historical pseudoscience concerning the all conquering Aryan superpower. Accepting the Holocaust as a racial issue is to give credence to the “racial theory” proposed by Nazi theorists, this faux scientific doctrine that was contrived to justify the interests of Nazi fascism and vindicate those who felt a conceptual bond with the mythic Nordic “race”.

    (2) “And by such exploration, buttress the argument that there are deeper issues at work between the races/culture groups from which the kids in the film hail, and no simple branding of them as merely-raced-based will suffice?”

    If I understand you correctly (forgive me if I’m wrong) you’re saying that all the reasons I gave that were non-racial concerning the Jews are equally applicable to the issues within the film and that I should just as well take the Holocaust as an example of these issues, despite the film pushing a race specific agenda. Sure, I guess. They could have had a person come into the classroom and tell a story of a boy losing his ice cream cone to a bully and use that as a means of extolling the virtues of tolerance and the bitter inhumanity of one person to another. It’s a bit of a stretch but you can take pretty much anything and apply it to yourself.

    My original comments never denied the ability to view the Holocaust as anything but a race issue. What I found odd was their purposely choosing to ignore issues that squarely pertained to race, such that would affect the characters in this film, and instead opted for the Holocaust example. Yes there are alternative reasons apart from race based ones that these students face however the depth of this film wasn’t intended to explore all suggestible alternatives as you would in an academic forum. This is a film and it wields the Holocaust like a blunt instrument. There is an ingrained righteousness and evident wrong within the Holocaust issue that doesn’t necessarily translate to issues of race suffered by people of color in America. I don’t really feel like speculating on the racial problems of fictional characters in a movie, but what I’m curious about is why, in a film that deals with racial issues between Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and Whites (racially discernable… which is what I meant by visible recognition) do they choose the wrongs done to the Jewish nation as a means of rectifying their racial divide?

  14. ren wrote:

    Lyonside,

    (this pertains to nothing and is purely anecdotal)
    Funny that you mention the Secular Jew. I had a roommate that was Jewish (at least in front of his parents) but at school he was an avowed atheist. He preached purely about reason and felt that the holy books of Judaism were rubbish. I used to harass him about that, how anyone claiming to be Jewish could be an atheist or non-practicing? I wanted to know how he could claim membership to the Jewish nation when the very foundation of being the “children of Israel” rests on a biblical rational. Being Jewish and refusing to proscribe to the teachings of the Torah doesn’t show much confidence in tracing your lineage back to the biblical patriarchs. His rational was that he was from Israel. I told him Israel has an indigenous population of Muslims, they aren’t Jewish. He told me he’d call the Anti-Defamation League on me. I told him I’d out him as a faux chosen-person of Israel. We eventually solved the issue when he agreed to buy me a few rounds of beer and I agreed to view Judaism as a culture that one could be a member of while not necessarily partaking in… uh… Judaism. Still sounds kind of funny to me, but hey, at least I got a couple free beers.

  15. kim wrote:

    ren and lyonside…ladies. i’m loving this.

    Ren: I can’t go back and forth with all the commentary, I’m exhausted, and the missives above are beautifully written and all points explicated.

    I wasn’t asking if you sought to reassess the way in which one would view the ‘race-based- hatred’ of the Aryan toward the Jew out of some need to redefine the applicability of differing racial labels. (And I love the disintegrating value of the trope as you drew it t two comments up-thread. I envisioned skin cells slaking off of a double helix, causing, in domino effect, the subsequent sloughing off of the next, and the next, and the next…)

    I was asking if you sought to have some of the non-race-based/culture-based features of the strife and animus give an ‘other perspective’, one which transcends race and the face-based differences and value hierarchy mechanisms which pervade the world of the youngsters portrayed in the film (and you should know, that I did not see the film, either, and am responding to the comments here).

    If I’m understanding your 2nd up-thread background for the film, there ARE racial features and aspects to their immediate strife, and it is what they respond to, and what is at the core of the foment between the students.

    If that is so, would not an investigation of some ‘other’ aspect of their disfranchisement, and alienation (associative, emotional) be recommended as a way to explore their commonalities, and help lead them toward a philosophy of shared struggle and need for coalition building? (Maybe there’s a Condi. or Richardson, or Inouye in their midst. :) )

    It seems that we often seek to show the emperor has on no clothes through such an approach.

    (And for final effort at clarity, not by introducing the Holocaust race-based issues as outlyer, but by introducing those additional,’ or ‘other,’ aspects inferred as possible for exploration as ’causes of animus toward the Jew: i.e., economic, etc.)

  16. Lyonside wrote:

    Just to clarify a bit:

    The line between the concept of Judaism as a religious faith and an ethnic group is very very blurry, and depends on where and when you are in the world. Judaism in recent centuries generally traces inheritance through the mother, no matter how much a child does or doesn’t practice the faith as an adult (in fact, whether inheritance can pass through the father in mixed marriages is the new debate for the US Conservative Jewish sect). An ethnologist might consider the isolation with some groups, the language and customs, and conclude that “Jewish” can mean an ethnicity at least some of the time.

    Here’s the thing: the Nazi philosphy, to my understanding, was based in the eugenics movements and mistakes (and intentional misdirections) of early anthropology and natural sciences of the early 1900s. Much as Charles Darwin’s concepts were misused to support “Social Darwinism,” the real studies of anthropology and early genetics were misused to develop bad science.

    If I had to guess, I’d say that rationale for the bombing of Britain was justified not only because they were the enemy, but because they were “mongrelized” by having Franco-German, Irish, Carribbean, Welsh, what have you, in the population. Crazy logic, but it worked. Same as with the

  17. Lyonside wrote:

    *cut off*

    Same as with the Eastern Europeans. And I do think the Nazi philosophy considered “Jewish” as a race, and they used centuries-old stereotypes and conspiracy theories to support placing Jews on the lowest ladder.

    Which asks the question: if Person #1 THINKS Person #2 is of a certain race/ethnicity, and Person#2 isn’t (or is of a group that isn’t a “race”/ethnicity), and person #1 does harm to person #2, is it a racial hate crime? I still tend to think yes – perception of the perpetrator is everything.

  18. Meg wrote:

    Geez, we’re going to totally disregard the importance of the Holocaust and lessons it offfers on the basis of what i assume is a crappy movie?

    Nazi ideology: superiority of Aryan race, Hitler had Aryans at the top and Jews (a parasitic race) at the bottom. Based in part on eugenics and social darwinism as pointed out by Lyonside.

    >Ren: “i find it odd when discussing issues of race + intolerance white individuals i know will often interject with (Holocaust)…….is this a weak attempt by white individuals to remind racial minorities that white ppl face intolerance as well?”
    – maybe it is. Alternatively maybe it’s a recognition that Nazism was based on a racial hierarchy and just because you don’t accept it doesn’t mean that it didn’t exist. Plenty of ppl try to prove that the Holocaust is not a historical reality. For schoolkids today to have an instantaneous, negative reaction to the Holocaust would be an ideal way to say to someone ’so if you don’t agree with that why would you agree with saying all blacks/latinos are gangbanging crack heads’. The Holocaust is the ultimate example of what happens when ppl hang around and don’t bother about what’s happening to those “other” ppl. It doesn’t inform us about the unique issues facing minorities today but to take such a strong dislike for the use of the Holocaust is a surprise to me – i can’t understand where you’re coming from??

    >Ren “what was the distinction between non-Jewish Germans and German Jews” – at the risk of sounding like a smart arse, the Jewish part was the distinction. In nazi controlled schools the kids were taught to id the jews by their hook noses, etc. They were taught the “science” behind the ideology.

    >Ren “distinguishing them as racially different isn’t discernable by me………..Often mistake the issue of the Holocaust as “racial” due to the Nazi theory………don’t take into accoutn that this supposed race issue wasn’t ground in scientific method”
    First off – what racial issue IS grounded in the scientific method? Is there some scientific account of slavery that i missed? Or even the theory today that baseballers from cuba, dominican republic, etc are the best cos they can stand the hot sun? OK there’s no scientific reason for their theory, that doesn’t make a bit of difference to the Jews living in Nazi germany or how they were perceived. Additionally, Nazis weren’t too fond of black ppl so if there was a large population in germany they’d have copped it also. It’s a mistake to look back with 2007 glasses and apply our scientific standards. Take history as you find it.

    >Ren “If Nazism was purely white supremecy why bomb Britain…….etc”
    1. Germany invaded Poland
    2. UK and France declare war on Germany.
    3. Before (i think) germany invaded the soviet union (because they hated communists) germany tried to negotiate peace with britain
    4.Part of ideology was belief in german volk and concept of lebensraum –> absorb those “germanic” ppls in europe who meet racial standards and german natives populate those countries (expand germany) and others not up to scratch are used as cheap labour.

    >ren “but killing Jews because Nazis were racist…….I’m not so sure about. The race issue of the Holocause was never really a race issue as it was more an ideological theory built upon no evidence apart from the rambling wants of an idiot dictator……..Accepting the Holocaust as a racial issue is to give credence to the “racial theory” proposed by Nazi theorists.”
    - so then we should never discuss race issues because it gives credence to those who believe that there are discrete, biologically based categories which define ppl? Fantastic – time to shut this blog down!
    Like i already said – it was a racial ideology whether “Jewish” is considered a race or not by today’s standards. More to the point – what are the acceptable racial categories you’d like to support? We speak of black, white, latino/hispanic, etc cos they’re the divides in the community but do you think being white dictates biological realities that you can never escape from?

    >ren “there is an ingrained righteousness + evident wrong within the Holocaust that doesn’t necessarily translate to issues of race suffered by ppl of colour in America……why…….choose the wrongs done to the Jewish nation as a means of rectifying their racial divide?”
    — i’ll preface by accepting the the consensus that the movie is crap. Therefore — say the movie sucks and doesn’t address complex issues but a complete disregard for a horrific part of recent human history and the lessons it offers i just can’t get my head around. If there’s tension between particular groups maybe it’s useful to speak about what happened to an entirely different group – a little bit of perspective other then you’re own world which can become hard to step back from especially when it’s as emotional as race.

    as a whole i really don’t get where the argument against using the holocaust is coming from other then the movie was crap at it. Nazi germany is such a complex issue that if you’re only experience is this movie then i get the confusion but geez. The questions around what happened to the Jews is how effortlessly it seemed to happen that suddenly within about 10 or so years of the rise of nazism an entire ppl were nearly wiped out. Yeah it’s the sledgehammer argument to show a picture of a mass grave and ask someone “is this ok”. The point is, if it gets someone to reconsider why they don’t care when it’s someone else getting crapped on then it’s a worthwhile exercise. If we had learnt the lessons of the holocaust then rwanda, balkans and sudan probably wouldn’t have happened. These are big issues and just cos they’re “inner city kids” doesn’t mean they can’t have an international concept of history. It gives the perspective that the struggles in america that are still going on have a basis in something that is bigger then just america and it’s had horrific consequences in the world. So the type of institutionalised disadvantage in america is different to what the Nazis did but some aspects are universal.

    in conclusion to this essay on nazi germany:) it’s a HUGE issue and boiling it down to a couple of comments is understandable on a blog but i think unfair which is why i addressed them.
    And to Ren – sorry if it looks personal it honestly isn’t i just wanted to address your comments.

  19. kim wrote:

    And of course Ren is saying that there are teachable lessons of horror and societal compliance, acquiesence and withdrawal in the recent historical travails of some members of the groups with which the school kids identify, and therefore no need for the reach outside for the ’sledgehammer’ event was necessary.

    The step-back and gain perspective aspect is, of course, understood. Up and down the net are discussions of why the issue of the Holocaust seems to trump every discussion of what has happened to Black folks, and acts as the only contemporary source of conferring the requisite consideration and examination of the events of slavery as horrific and worthy of continued study, commemoration and assessment (sort of a White savior thing all over again) . I am not imputing any such cynicism or bitterness to Ren.

  20. ren wrote:

    Total disregard for the importance of the Holocaust? I think the way you mischaracterized what I said, I have to take that personally. But I’ll be warm and jovial about it. I hope you weren’t insinuating that I’m a Holocaust denier simply for posing the question that I did. David Irving I am not. I recall no Holocaust denier’s argument that rested on the idea that Nazi racial doctrine was fallacious and used the idea of race erroneously thus no Holocaust. But I’ll check up on that just in case.

    “Maybe it’s a recognition that Nazism was based on a racial hierarchy and just because you don’t accept it doesn’t mean that it didn’t exist.”

    Nice parsing of the argument. I never denied the existence of the racial doctrine, I expounded on it for quite some time, I merely reject the validity of their (Nazi’s) claim that it was rooted in race. You however seem content on believing otherwise. So again, how specifically do Jews constitute as a race different from the Germans that composed the Nazi party? Just because Nazi theorists present it as a racial ideology, I must accept it as they proposed? What proof of any rational substance was given to show that the Aryan race was superior part from their just saying so? The Aryan race also declared themselves the purveyors of civilization, I don’t agree with that either. When discussing ethics and morality I don’t reference Nazi’s for their shining contributions to civilization simply because they promoted their own false ideas. So I’ll take your argument one step further, just because it exists doesn’t mean it should be taken for what it claims to stand for. Making the claim does not necessitate giving it any credence. That I have to accept it for what Nazi’s choose to tout it as? No thanks.

    “It (Holocaust) doesn’t inform us about the unique issues facing minorities today… ”

    And that Meg was the WHOLE POINT of the question. Now if you want to argue why the Holocaust is important, you’re preaching to the choir, but the issue of how the Holocaust pertains to the racial issues presented in this film is what lead me to pose the question in the first place.

    If you’re going to quote me, at least use the whole quote and not leave out significant points. You misread the question. Check my original post… “If the Nazi’s murder of Jews was racial then what was the RACIAL distinction between non-Jewish Germans and German Jews? I could have answered a general question that called for merely any distinction (I would have picked Pork).

    You ask what racial issue IS grounded in the scientific method? I would say practically any issue worthy of discussion. The racial stats and historical figures you use to wage arguments and criticize your opponents, you assume these are just opinion pieces and weren’t provided at least by the attempt of collecting measurable data? The controversy over Herrnstein’s faux-scientific Bell Curve which was harshly criticized by those in the scientific community for it’s sketchy accumulation of data, would you tell those criticizing his book, hey what racial issue IS grounded in the scientific method? I guess all opinion is equally plausible despite one observing and collecting data and providing provable evidence and another sitting in their parents basement conceptualizing their pseudo-science, and demanding equal validity to their views without having to pass scrutiny.

    Why give regard to a distinguished social scientist vs. Bill the trash man on issues of race? Because you believe the social scientist adheres to a method that is underscored by intellectual honesty and results in scrutinized provable evidence that lends greater validity to his claims over Bill’s opinions. So when Bill says blacks are 90% of welfare recipients and the social scientist corrects him by offering a far lower number, I would assume you’d give greater credence to the person with proof. The whole point of the scientific method is intellectual honesty, to minimize personal bias. I’m not quite sure how you’re perceiving it, but it’s not some man in a white lab coat checking off a clipboard and acknowledging what is true and what is not. It’s a precedent for honesty and integrity.

    When the NYT says Asians are taking over Berkeley and you use that statistical data to frame an argument about the issue, you are giving credence to the position that the NYTimes has taken. Their “scientific method” would be called journalistic integrity. Why is it that you give greater validity to the NYTimes instead of Joe the blogger who feels there are no Asians at Berkeley? Joe proposal doesn’t make his point valid despite his claim that it is. About your “theory” of the baseballers, that’s a misnomer. Unless the proponent has evidence put forth to be scrutinized, it’s a hypothesis at best. If it holds out under scrutiny it may become theory. The scientific method doesn’t presuppose truth, it merely gives credence to the ideas that have yet to be disproved.

    Not sure why the affront toward my remark about the scientific method, it was merely to say the Nazi “racial doctrine” was composed by individuals who had no credibility and no provable evidence to make their doctrine a “race” doctrine. These theorists had as much legitimacy as some anonymous blogger claiming all blue-eyed people are an inferior race. I would say hey, that’s your opinion, doubtful I would say hey, that’s your racial doctrine. I don’t think it’s deserving of that distinction unless he can attest to what’s provable in his “doctrine”.

    “OK there’s no scientific reason for their theory, that doesn’t make a bit of difference to the Jews living in Nazi Germany or how they were perceived”

    Agreed, the Jews couldn’t care less what rational the Germans gave for their systematic genocide. However I wasn’t making my argument from the point of view of a Holocaust era Jew. I was asking if the racial theory proposed by Nazism had the credibility be to regarded as a racial issue pertinent to modern day Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and Whites. I’m not talking about it’s pertinence to issues of hate and intolerance, I’m talking about it’s pertinence to race as depicted in this film.

    You seem to be kicking me for believing their racial doctrine was completely contrived for no purpose other than to legitimize a policy of genocide. Do you think their racial ideology is valid? I don’t care if Nazi’s say it’s valid or that it’s a racial doctrine in their mind, I’m asking you, what do you think? If yes, what is the provable evidence that supports the idea that Jews are a “race” and an “inferior race” at that vs. what distinguishes a “superior race”. If you say no, why take affront at my refusal to see it as a legitimate racial ideology and mostly lunatic flotsam and pseudo-historical high-mindedness?

    By the way, I’ll be sure to tell the men of the enlightenment that the scientific method never applied to them because it’s a product of contemporary scientific thought. I think we should both agree on taking history as it is and not how you find it to be. But let’s not fall off course.

    I brought up the question of why bomb Britain and so on as a rhetorical question, I was making the argument that the superiority of the “Aryan” race was totally contrived, and the Germanic superiority they proposed excluded many Slavs who would regard themselves as Germanic. And then the necessary distinction for Nordic superiority as to distinguish one white race from the inferiority of another white “race”. Turns the whole issue away from race to labeling “inferior race” to anyone that opposed Nazi doctrine, despite their claim that it’s a racial ideology.

    “so then we should never discuss race issues because it gives credence to those who believe that there are discrete, biologically based categories which define ppl? Fantastic – time to shut this blog down!”

    Wow, nicely generalized. I guess my unwillingness to give credence to a fake racial theory and then question its pertinence to contemporary race relationships means never allowing racial discussion again. I’m curious what exactly were these “discrete, biologically based categories which define people” that was structured in this issue concerning Nazi’s racial ideology? If you want to use bullshit pseudoscience as a rational for racial issue I welcome you to do so, but simply because it’s proposed doesn’t mean it’s legitimate. If you’re saying I can’t reject an issue based on it’s accuracy, meh. I got an idea, you tell me why I should give credence to this racial ideology and how Nazi racial ideology pertains to the racial divide of Blacks, Asians, Hispanics and Whites in the modern world and I’ll be willing to accept it. Then neither of us will have to fear about the issue being avoided for discussion and the site won’t have to prematurely close down.

    “Like i already said – it was a racial ideology whether “Jewish” is considered a race or not by today’s standards.”

    By today’s standards? Our standards have changed concerning whether Jews constitute a race? I think the problem is you’re accepting the Nazi standard in how they define “race”. Considering their views on race were revived by Nazism and died out with Nazism, doesn’t bode strongly in their views of who constitutes as a different races.

    We can all agree the film is crap, yes, but we can’t ignore the story of the film fearing that the crappiness of it will affect the portrayal of the Holocaust. The issue of the Holocaust trumps the aesthetic quality of this film. However the issue of the film isn’t specifically about the Holocaust. The Holocaust is a message in the film but the story and characters are the messengers like it or not. The problems and issues they face because of their race is a factor, this isn’t just fodder that stands in the way of getting to the issue of the Holocaust. So why not use a racial issues that pertain to these characters specifically? I’m not against using the Holocaust, I was curious why it was chosen above other specifically race-based issues. If that was a call for wiping the Holocaust from the history books, I apologize.

    The sketchy US involvement in Cambodia that paved the way for the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge and the systematic genocide of Cambodia’s population… is that also a worthwhile exercise in considering human behavior? How about the couple centuries of Philippine subjugation? Or the European involvement in the Hutu/Tutsi genocide? Is that adequate international perspective of history? Or the Japanese massacre in the Philippines and China? Perhaps the topic of the Holocaust is awarded a higher regard, residing on some top echelon, fair enough. But as you stated, with the resulting Balkans and Sudan… it’s ability to disseminate knowledge doesn’t pertain to its revered status. So I see little reason why we can’t use racially specific issues. I fear that these issues are largely ignored because nobody saw it as a horrific consequence to the world, the way in which the Holocaust is seen.

    “If there’s tension between particular groups maybe it’s useful to speak about what happened to an entirely different group – a little bit of perspective other then you’re own world which can become hard to step back from especially when it’s as emotional as race.”

    This is a great argument for my original question. You say change the perspective, I say they don’t even have the perspective they need to address the issues that affect them. You’re talking about racial issues that aren’t even fully realized. Excluding international ones, contemporary domestic issues like half of Korea Town getting burned to the ground and suffering the most damage of anywhere in LA and people still discuss the LA riots as a Black/White issue.

    Nobody here was trying to reconstruct the past, just questioning it’s pertinence to this particular contemporary issue. I apologize for having to explain my stance on Nazism, that was merely to answer someone’s questions and wasn’t meant to move the line of discussion completely outside the parameter of the question I originally posed. The Holocaust is a solved issue, evident right and wrong. But the film is about the racial divide in America and the hostility between people of differing races. There are many racial issues that aren’t so unambiguous, that provide no answers, and beg for inquiry yet are hardly given consideration. That’s not to say that the issues of minority races holds exclusivity. I concur, the Holocaust is significant.

    You must have thought I was trying to cast the Jews in a bad light, I wasn’t. It was speculation, so calm down. I can speculate why the Jewish Holocaust Museum in DC resides in the US instead of Europe. That doesn’t show disregard for the Holocaust or any of the lessons garnered from it. I can say that the Racial Theory of that the Nazi’s proposed to support fascist policy was fallacious and overall crap, how does that specifically lessen the regard one has for the Holocaust and the people who suffered.

  21. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    Hi everyone! I don’t want to stifle the conversation going on here, but I do want to issue a friendly reminder that we should try not to head down that antagonistic path again, as we have with previous threads. Thanks! :)

  22. L wrote:

    I particularly appreciated this line in the critique: “Never mind that the Holocaust was institutionalized violence, and the many instances of institutionalized violence and oppression that each of those groups represented in those classes face in America.” The comparison by the film of the inter-poc rivalry between the students the persecution during the Holocaust creates an uneven parallel in terms of power dynamics, since the comparison is not of equivalent power structures.

    Dominant culture has a vested interest in promoting a narrative which individualizes and complete avoids any depiction of institutional culpability. This piece really points to the colonialist underpinnings to this kind of tired “white savior civilizing the poc” narrative.

  23. L wrote:

    * since the comparison does not involve equivalent power structures.

  24. Just Wondering wrote:

    Dominant culture has a vested interest in promoting a narrative which individualizes and complete avoids any depiction of institutional culpability. This piece really points to the colonialist underpinnings to this kind of tired “white savior civilizing the poc” narrative.

    I’m sure the Hollywood types who made the movie were all over the “colonialist underpinnings” of the script.

    What do you have to say about the remake of “Dr. Doolittle” with Eddie Murphy as a veterinarian?

  25. Koko wrote:

    Wow. There is nothing left to say really.

  26. Meg wrote:

    You seriously want me to answer if I believe in Nazi ideology? I’d be on a different website.
    >Ren: “You seem to be kicking me for believing their racial doctrine was completely contrived for no purpose other than to legitimize a policy of genocide. Do you think their racial ideology is valid? I don’t care if Nazi’s say it’s valid or that it’s a racial doctrine in their mind, I’m asking you, what do you think? If yes, what is the provable evidence that supports the idea that Jews are a “race” and an “inferior race” at that vs. what distinguishes a “superior race”. If you say no, why take affront at my refusal to see it as a legitimate racial ideology and mostly lunatic flotsam and pseudo-historical high-mindedness? ”

    So anyway in the interest of the original spirit of my comment I’ll assume I’m just being sensitive and you weren’t implying any neo-nazi leanings on my part. My comment at the end about it not being personal was actually true and intended to try and off-set a slanging match, clearly you don’t believe me but I have nothing to offer up except that I wasn’t kicking you I was addressing some points I disagreed with. I think my intent has been a little misconstrued – maybe cos i misconstrued your stuff in the 1st instance (?) and the “disregard the holocaust” sounded way harsher then I meant it to. I wasn’t waging a war with historical facts I was trying to have a conversation. The abridged versions (signalled by”………”) of quotes was to give a context of what my comments related to. Most important I don’t think you’re a holocaust denier cos I wouldn’t have bothered with my comment if I did.

    My point which I guess I should have made alone without direct reference to specific phrases was that ALTHOUGH there’s no scientific evidence for the Nazi ideology and they’ve labelled races based on their beliefs, this does not automatically (which I thought you were arguing) disqualify the use of the Holocaust to talk about some of the problems around racial discrimination today. How Jews constitute a different race to the Germans is the whole “hook nose” thing I mentioned. Nazis used their scientists, teachers, historians, philosophers to make the distinctions real – not a scientific reality but a reality believed in by the Nazis and used to justify their policies.

    The whole scientific method thing I must have been unclear about. I’m well and truly familiar with the scientific method and Bell Curve, etc, I know how stats can be manipulated to tell a story. My point on saying “what racial issue is based on scientific method” is that the Bell Curve is bad science, there’s no good scientific basis for why we think our skin colour reflects fundamental biological facts. This doesn’t mean that we don’t believe in racial categories or that racial categories have no consequence in today’s society, but it’s not backed by science.

    I read your original comments as a claim that since the Nazi ideology was NOT scientific, it has no relevance to racial issues – which i took issue with and tried to address cos it made no sense to me why u needed scientific ‘proof’ to accept the claimed racial distinctions. Since then you’ve (re)stated your argument is that the Holocaust has little relevance to what kids deal with today when there’s the LA riots, etc to address – right or am i still on the wrong track? I don’t agree with this but my original post relates to what i thought was the basis of your argument (that since the Jews aren’t a race the holocaust isn’t relevent) and was pointing out why I disagreed.

    I do think the Holocaust has some role to play and can lead into the more recent and current things. It can obviously lead to a discussion (potentially controversial depending on the school) of the Black Holocaust and compare why it’s not as well used a term as the Holocaust in reference to the Jews. But if there’s a room of kids who are antagonistic to each other then starting with the Jewish Holocaust could provide the wider context they might not be seeing yet.

    I don’t think it should be automatically disregarded as a useful tool – if the concern is what audiences will see as the “take home message” then i guess that’s a whole other argument you and i can have some other time.

  27. ren wrote:

    Yes, technically I was asking if you believe in the Nazi Ideology but no, I wasn’t asking you if you were a Neo-Nazi. I was asking if you could find any shred of truth in the ideology Nazism espoused since it is THEIR claims that gives validity to framing the Holocaust as a racial issue. I could have asked if you found a feminist position valid without automatically assuming you’re a feminist nor hold that position as your own personal view.

    It’s not “bad” science, it’s really no science at all. A rank we give to the discredited known as pseudoscience. Which is why I’ve been calling it a pseudoscience many times now. Pseudoscience meaning the “claim” of science while undermining the scientific method in order to produce an erroneous conclusion used to support a particular bias. So yes, the “Hook Nose” Physiognomy that was proposed as scientific justification for Nazi ideology was bad science or pseudoscience as I call it (what if you were the Jew without the prominent nose?) They were looking for a scientific basis that would confer upon the Nazi’s a superior status. So again, you and I agree, the rational given by Nazism to support their “racial doctrine” was based on no scientific reasoning. It just as well have been someone’s opinion passed off as truth.

    “I read your original comments as a claim that since the Nazi ideology was NOT scientific, it has no relevance to racial issues”

    Your relevance “to” something is a softening of your assertion. I never denied relevance in general, we’ve been over the intolerance hate angle of the Holocaust which is very pertinent. I’m claiming the Nazi Ideology had no scientific claim to race thus it has no relevance AS a RACIAL ISSUE.

    “it made no sense to me why u needed scientific ‘proof’ to accept the claimed racial distinctions. ”

    Yes, I’m asking for a valid rational. Why should I be expected to accept their claims without a valid rational? Since we’ve agreed it was scientifically invalid, I find it fair to view that statement in this way:

    “it made no sense to me why u needed scientific ‘proof’ to accept the NAZI PSEUDOSCIENCE.”

    Or here:

    “Although (Nazi ideology is a pseudoscience concerning “race”), this does not automatically disqualify the use of the Holocaust to talk about some of the problems around racial discrimination today.

    Again, the question has changed from whether the Holocaust is a valid racial issue to it’s ability to apply to “some problems” (very ambiguous) around racial discrimination today. Since my first comment, I pointed out my skepticism to declaring the Holocaust a race issue. Since I’ve been giving arguments for my skepticism, let me reword it so it puts more burden on your claim. Explain why accepting someone’s erroneous claims about race makes it a valid means of discussing it as a RACE issue? Yes, you’re correct as to what my claim was. The Nazi Ideology that prompted the Holocaust has no relevance to racial issues due to a lack of any rational that proved a connection to race, the key proponent to the expressed ideology.

    I don’t want to restate my rational using the Holocaust so let me word it this way. Phrenologists, practiced their “science” of phrenology, where one could determine personality traits based on the bumps of the skull. A stupid idea but immensely popular among the people before being universally discredited. They believed it was scientifically valid. They used fallacious reasoning to justify their belief that a bump in the skull confers a personality trait. Their justifications however were irrational. Bumps on skulls had nothing to do with personality. Despite their willingness to make a connection there is no scientific validity to their claim, it was a basis in rational scientific inquiry that disproved phrenologists. So if you were a scientist speaking at a symposium on empirical studies of personality, and I came forth demanding that you discuss phrenology as a argument to buttress the modern day empirical testing of human behavior, would the professor have at least the minimal justification to be skeptical of the way you wish phrenology to be positioned? Yes, in a historically nostalgic sense phrenology holds a place as an utter misconception of personality, but it pertains to the modern study of personality in the weakest possible way. Sure there is a “connection” in a miniscule sense but that thread of floss doesn’t give it the credibility to present itself as a valid means of understanding personality. Unless it’s presented as how incredibly gullible we are. Thus my skepticism with claiming the Holocaust as a racial issue.

    This whole ordeal dealt with using the Holocaust as a race issue in the case of contemporary racial issues. You say it has a role to play, but now you say it “can lead into” the discussion of more recent and current issues. Meaning it can lead into issues that DO play a particular role in the racial issues of the characters portrayed in this film. And that was also one of my issues. I agree that there is a potential for the Holocaust issue to lead one to explore others issues. But you also have to realize that by utilizing the Holocaust you negate the portrayal of any other racial issue was perhaps more pertinent and now has to be hypothetically sought out from where it was excluded.

    Reading the Diary of Anne Frank has allusions to Imperial Japan’s occupation of Korea, The question is, did you actually consider that when reading Anne Frank? Could have happened… probably didn’t. Especially if the issue has never come to light before. The film had the potential to bring to light any racial issue it wanted to, and thus what it eventually favored, caused me to respond the way I did. It should remain a discussion of how it pertains directly and not a hypothetical characterization of the Holocaust issue as “all that it COULD be”.

    Frankly Meg, I enjoyed our discussion so no hurt feelings. See this not as a rebuttal but more as a closing statement, I leave you the last word. I’d discuss it further but the original issues are already starting to shift and reword themselves, that and I have to mentally prepare for the visceral thrill of watching the President go forth to win the prestige of the American People. Plenty of fodder to discuss with that issue. Peace.

  28. ren wrote:

    crap, now I’m miswording things. Definitly time to quit.

    Correction:

    “The Nazi Ideology that prompted the Holocaust has no relevance as a racial issue due to a lack of any rational that proved a connection to race, the key proponent to the expressed ideology.

  29. Judith wrote:

    I haven’t seen the movie and I was just browsing the Freedom Writers’ book in a store yesterday–because I’m looking for innovative teaching ideas–and maybe interest in this thread has worn out. I’m sorry to see it got off on a tangent about Nazism and the Holocaust. I think its a distraction and that even when Erin Gruwell, brought it into the classroom, it was a distraction.

    I want to get back to a more basic issue about Freedom Writers: I think the book is a hoax. How true is a “true story?” A little Freedom Writers industry has sprung up promoting their breakthrough authenticity. They have the people to “prove” they’re dealing in truth–the students who have gone on to college etc; but I don’t believe this proof and my doubts start specifically with the book and my evidence comes from it. Somebody did some HEAVY editing. It is perfectly written and spelled and punctuated with high skill, and in a rambunctious and casual voice and tone to make us believe youth is speaking. In this book, a collection of diary entries, supposedly from many different students, every writer sounds THE SAME. I have never heard such uniformity. I want to know who produced this true book and how? How much did the students do, how much an editor? It makes a difference. The book is claiming for the students a writing skill they may not have and therefore something phony about these assimilated careers they’re having in college.

    One other thing about this Freedom Writers industry distresses me: they have named themselves for the freedom riders of the 1960s and in so doing they are ripping off history; they are offering themselves as the new improved version of the fight for freedom and justice–without the fight, without the civil disobedience, without the exposure of vicious structural racism and without the risk. While generating all this fanfare and plucking of heartstrings, they offer only the tactic of assimilation based on a deep denial of the structural factors by which our education system insures poor alienating education for poor students who also happen to be people of color.

  30. L wrote:

    Just Wondering,

    What does “Dr. Doolittle” have to do with my comment? Are you make some silly point about how Hollywood movies are somehow free of racist and colonialist ideologies because they cast a black man in a originally white role? What do you think Westerns are all about? Why do you think there is an audience for all these films with the “White savior of students of color” premise if not for racism in society?

  31. anastasia wrote:

    i thought you didn’t explore the message of the movie. when you erase all the characters and put in the people you want to see, then you can see the true message in the story. Other than that, i thought your opinions were very intellectual and skeptical.

  32. Gentoile wrote:

    Thank God for intellectuals skeptics and independent thinkers.

    100% Sodium free, no artificial sweetners, binders or fillers. Ideal for calorie reduced diets.

    Color enhanced.

    Racialious indeed!

  33. AustralianBoy wrote:

    hey, was watching this at school but didnt getn a chance to see the end. Thanks for the spoilers i couldn’t be bothered watching the end.
    By the way, What happens to ben- the lonely white boy in class-?