Oprah: inner-city kids want iPods and sneakers, not education at Racialicious

Oprah: inner-city kids want iPods and sneakers, not education

by Carmen Van Kerckhove

I was watching Paula Zahn last night (By the way, is Asian eyelid surgery really still news anymore? They spent a whole segment on it!) and they had a panel discussing the recent opening of the $40 million Oprah Winfrey Leadership Academy for Girls in South Africa.

Oprah recently gave an interview to Newsweek and explained why she decided to do this project in South Africa instead of in the States:

“I became so frustrated with visiting inner-city schools that I just stopped going. The sense that you need to learn just isn’t there,” she says. “If you ask the kids what they want or need, they will say an iPod or some sneakers. In South Africa, they don’t ask for money or toys. They ask for uniforms so they can go to school.”

Sigh… her remark frustrates me on so many levels. Please excuse the incoherent rant that is about to follow.

First, I hate this hypocritical assumption that poor people shouldn’t be allowed to have/buy nice things. I recently read a really great blog post that broke it down nicely, but unfortunately couldn’t find it anywhere (if anyone knows what I’m talking about, please post a link).

All of us, regardless of our income/wealth level, spend money on things that we really can’t afford. We all aspire to own objects that are out of our reach. This is not some kind of “inner city mentality.” It’s a mindset that we all buy into, pun intended.

Also, don’t we all go for the instant gratification over the long-term gratification? Can you really blame a kid for wanting an iPod more than something as amorphous as “education?”

Is it any different from giving into that craving for a piece of chocolate cake (instant gratification) instead of denying yourself so that you can stick to your diet (long-term gratification)? You’d think Oprah would know a thing or two about that, considering how much time she devotes to discussing her “struggle” with her weight.

Between this and her comments about hip hop, I feel like Oprah is setting a dangerous example for her demographic (i.e. white soccer moms and their families) to believe in these essentialist notions about young black and Latino youth.

“Even Oprah thinks that all they want to do is buy sneakers. If Oprah says it, it can’t be racist!”

Trackbacks & Pings

In case you missed it… at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 05 Jan 2007 at 12:51 pm

[…] Oprah: inner-city kids want iPods and sneakers, not education: All of us, regardless of our income/wealth level, spend money on things that we really can’t afford. We all aspire to own objects that are out of our reach. This is not some kind of “inner city mentality.” It’s a mindset that we all buy into, pun intended. Also, don’t we all go for the instant gratification over the long-term gratification? […]

Comments

mamazilla wrote:

i’m confused. how can oprah complain about those frustrating inner city kids wanting ipods and turn around and complain, “From the very beginning, the developers sent me plans for the school that resembled a chicken coop,” she says. “It was clear that the attitude was ‘These are poor African girls. Why spend all this on them?’ It was unbelievably upsetting.”

she implies that ipods are an unnecessary luxury item but spends 40 millon dollars to build a school in africa “set on 22 lush acres and spread over 28 buildings, the complex features oversize rooms done in tasteful beiges and browns with splashes of color, 200-thread-count sheets, a yoga studio, a beauty salon, indoor and outdoor theaters, hundreds of pieces of original tribal art and sidewalks speckled with colorful tiles.”

i’m not sure how or when it happened but the woman seems completely out of touch with reality.

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 6:38 pm ¶
HighJive wrote:

Well, it’s certainly a complicated topic. A lot of folks have debated the issues of instant gratification among lower-income groups. Michael Eric Dyson, who has been Bill Cosby’s most vocal opponent, often discusses the issues. Below is an interview transcript with Dyson. It’s obviously not the writing you referenced, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/11/10/DI2005111000768.html

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 6:55 pm ¶
Meg wrote:

I think the wrong tact is being taken with this story and i’ll try to explain why: I read stuff on this and it seems like Oprah’s kinda been backed into a corner to justify why she’s spending money in south africa rather than at home in america. Firstly it’s her money to spend and a school is a school is a school. But also I think the broader point we should be looking at is why is education not highly valued in wealthy countries the way it is in poor countries (where school is not a birthright). Getting into an argument over whether Oprah is causing a diservice to inner city kids should be superceded by the question of why inner city kids have to compete with dirt poor (

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 7:13 pm ¶
Meg wrote:

so half my post disappeared and i’m not typing it again but basically to finish off my above post:

……compete with dirt poor (

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 7:18 pm ¶
Meg wrote:

ok i give up posting what gives?

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 7:19 pm ¶
HighJive wrote:

mamazilla,

The one thing I’ll say about your initial reaction is that the environment can affect the educational experience. One of the best books ever written about education and class is “Savage Inequalities” by Jonathan Kozol. In the book, Kozol compared two Chicago schools: one upscale suburban and one lower-income inner city. Kids are acutely aware of the differences in their environments (i.e., lower-income kids see the upscale images on tv, news, movies, etc.). And it does have an impact on everything, from learning to self-esteem. On the one hand, Oprah is a bit out of touch, as a multi-billionaire can be. But I do think she’s right in going the opposite direction of a chicken coop. Why not give the kids an experience they can be proud of?

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 7:19 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

Not justifying it per se, but I can see the mentality behind “instant gratification” (which I know is neither ONLY in the inner city nor a staple of inner-city life - having met enough kids who want to help their family, go to school, get a job, etc.) : in many developing countries, schooling IS the way out, it’s the way to a future, it can open doors, it can lift a family out of poverty.

In the US, with an overwhelming number of failing public schools (in and out of the cities), the incentive to education/jobs is less… in other words, a high school diploma from a bad school can be seen and felt as worthless, and the jobs are nonexistant w/out a college degree in many areas. If you don’t want to be a food worker, cleaner, or health care orderly, the options in some areas can be seen as bleak. It’s especially true if the average teen doesn’t have the role models to show how it can be done.

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 7:19 pm ¶
Kenda wrote:

this is why oprah frustrates me. she has a show that promotes the american consumer attitude and then she turns right around and condemns inner-city kids for wanting nice things. how dare they wish they could have the things they see on her show. oprah does a lot of good things, and i applaud her for opening this school but so often she just misses the boat

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 7:21 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

Meg: that was happening to me too last weekend - try not using ( or whatever punctuation was right after it… I dunno, seems like an HTML glitch to me.

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 7:23 pm ¶
kim wrote:

So really poor kids, whose parents cannot pay the electric bills, or send them on a college tour of six campuses at $130.00/per tour, who stand outside of shoe stores in Harlem (this I saw just this past Spring) at 7:00 a.m. to buy the latest $200 sneakers for which they must ever be on guard, should be sentimentalized as needing more?

Damn skippy. But more what? More of an understanding of delayed gratification, more of an appreciation of sacrifice and “making do,” more quiet time to read and reflect, more of an appreciation for that, more of many of the components of the Mid-Western value, and the immigrant value, so often extolled in social commentary.

They have no role models in this regard. Save the immigrant for whom they do not respect for the hard work with-nothing-to-show-for-it ’til their kid graduates from college and earns big bucks. But that is foresight, and that is sadly missing from every single aspect of this rapid-fire, bling bling, silicone implant, botoxified world we live in where it is all about the ’show.’

And yet, Oprah is a model. Not her largess (don’t even go there), or her access to same, not her splurgess on the masses (via-Pontiac and whoever else), but through the example of her lifestory, and the parallels her story has with legions of others who ‘made it.’

Let her spend, and decorate, and renovate as she uplifts those young girls. Our children have running water, and tiled floors, lights in every room, a cafeteria, auditorium, gym, recess yard, and , if they are in a great place, music and art instruction and sports camps during break.

There are obstacles to getting there in one piece everyday for some, but a pair of skipps and some new clothes from K-mart in September got so many of us through that I cannot opine for the American student who has so much, even in the absence of great riches, that the low places here are close to heaven for many globally.

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 7:49 pm ¶
Rob wrote:

I think I know what Oprah is talking about because my uncle was caught in the same situation.

Long story short, my uncle is a multi-millionaire because of his own furniture business. Suffice to say, he’s done very well for himself considering he only came to the United States with the clothes on this back and $1500 cash.

He decided to give some back to charity and combined resources with another individual to construct a library in the inner city. This library was a sight to behold. The building was brand new, new computers, huge amount of books, new tables, etc.

After about a year or two, the library is a shadow of it’s former self. Most of the windows are broken, books and computers have been stolen, half the rooms are sealed because of too much theft, litter everywhere, etc. It’s pretty much a hell hole.

Suffice to say, my uncle is no longer interested in contributing to charity when it comes to the inner city (Read: black) because since they obviously don’t care, then there is no reason for him to care either. Nowadays, he spends time giving scholarships to well-off Asian Americans and whites.

We had a discussion about this a few weeks ago and I explained to him that you can’t just toss money at a situation and expect it to fix itself. It’s akin to covering up a carpet fire with a huge paper bag. The fire might be gone for a little while but eventually, the fire will consume the bag.

The more logical source of action is to put out the fire and then cover up the burnt carpet with a paper bag.

Until we change the mentality of inner city school kids on why learning is important and show them society values education, they’re always going to want sneakers and iPods. Oprah now belongs to the group of elitists that feel minorities should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps without attempting to figure out that the core of the apple is rotten.

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 8:20 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>After about a year or two, the library is a shadow of it’s former self. Most of the windows are broken, books and computers have been stolen, half the rooms are sealed because of too much theft, litter everywhere, etc. It’s pretty much a hell hole.

Ok, Rob, I’m really sorry your uncle’s experiment went wrong, and it’s a shame that a good resource went to waste.

BUT. Was there community support for the library? Who was supposed to maintain it and provide security? Were they up to the task? What else went wrong? None of the things you mention can happen in a vacuum, and it sounds as if crime (computers sold for quick drug money, etc.) was a factor, which excludes almost all of the residents who would have been served by the facility.

The ENTIRE inner city of any region cannot be categorized by any one example, positive or negative. I’ve seen nice areas STAY reasonable nice in the inner city, especially when security measures are enforeced, the community is active in the site planning, and people are vested in keeping it up.

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 8:51 pm ¶
kim wrote:

Case in point: The Schomburg in central Harlem, at the corner of W. 136th Street and Lenox Avenue.

Open to the public, with many resources available for use by-appointment-only, and fully staffed with librarians, archivists as well as the typical NYC Library guard. Buttressing this ground as a place that services and showcases the community are the incredible icons and images of Black folks that say to Black folk: yeah, we did that.

The criminal element is not that to which I would speak when it comes to the acquisitive, wanton spirit of the youth. The criminal element is probably plagued by a need to feed drug habit (s).

Interesting that your uncle could find no needy Asians to help. What’s that about?

Posted 03 Jan 2007 at 10:13 pm ¶
Donna Darko wrote:

Until we change the mentality of inner city school kids on why learning is important and show them society values education, they’re always going to want sneakers and iPods.

The problem is what is taught in schools. People value education that values them. If what you learn in school is anti-black, it’s logical that school is not cool for that community and that studying hard is learning white men’s version of history, etc. That’s why HBCU’s are so popular. You can study hard and not hurt your community. Sorry if that was ignorant because I’m not black but this is what I read in an article this summer.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 12:00 am ¶
Donna Darko wrote:

Signithia Fordham and John Ogbu’s “Blac Students’ School Success: Coping with the ‘Burden of “Acting White”‘” (1986) argued the fear of being accused of acting white causes a social and psychological situation which diminishes black students’ academic effort and thus leads to underachievement. This was later challenged by “Reassessing the ‘Burden of “Acting White”‘: The Importance of Peer Groups in Managing Academic Success” (2003) by Horvat and Lewis which argued that it was possible to sustain an authentic black identity and achieve academically by managing peer groups. It’s notable though that the second study was all girls who may manage peer groups differently than boys.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 12:08 am ¶
merq wrote:

OK, so here’s the thing. One of the many crippling racial problems America faces is that of race-specific labels. It was immortalized in the “looting vs finding” debate shortly after Katrina, but it seeps into nearly every facet of American life.

You’re on the train and a black man with raggedy, dirt-stained jeans and a filthy t-shirt boards. He must be a bum and/or drug addict. A white man in similar garb may be seen as a bum as well, but the majority of the riders in that subway car will first try the “bohemian/hippie” box to see if it fits.

It’s 3:00pm and three black kids are talking loudly on the train. They’re flicking objects at one another, and calling each other all sorts of names. Being a firm believer in the old “there’s a time and a place” canon, I’m visibly disgusted, and as I look around the train, I see I’m by no means the only one.
So why is it that when these three loud kids are white, I don’t really have anyone sharing my outrage? Could it be the difference in accents? Is “bitch-ass” somehow a more offensive name for a friend than “retard?”

Thus, bringing me to my point. I think The Big O (and many others) are willing to hang black kids for being… well, kids. What is the one circumstance that turns suburban housewives — the very same ones that make up Big O’s core audience — act crazier than serial killers in a prison riot?

That’s right. Holiday shopping.

Why do these parents claw, scratch, and slash for a toy that asks to be sexually harrassed, or a doll who redefines the word ’skank?’ Surely, their kids aren’t like the inner-city youth who (gasp!) never request that glow-in-the-dark periodic table they really need.

Like Carmen said, people as a whole, want material goods (and sex) because that’s what we’ve got thrust in our faces 24/7. But labels are different for different people. Sarah Jessica Parker inspired a segment of women to spend more than half their paychecks on ludicrously overpriced Jimmy Choo sandals, because of some tired “city girl and her shoe closet” cliche. Yet, Heaven forbid the “inner-city” teen even looks at a $200 pair of shoes the wrong way.
That’s another pair of conflicting labels for you: “decadent” vs. “hood rich.”

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 12:54 am ¶
merq wrote:

Plus, here’s another question for you. How many of these people would still cluck their tongues in disapproval if an “inner-city” kid longed for a $300 pair of leather-soled Oxfords?

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 1:02 am ¶
meemee wrote:

and to add to that, there’s more to this phenomenon than just kids who don’t express a deep desire for education. they don’t exactly have the best role models, the schools they go to probably act more like juvenile hall rather than an academic setting, and their music idols include 50 cent and the game and whoever else. they kinda just all blend in together to form one big giant hip hop stereotype. and in all seriousness, mainstream hip hop is like, one major tool of oppression of people of color.

but the major question is, why are people like oprah and bill cosby blaming the youth? aren’t the adults the ones who are supposed to lead the way and set the example? oprah and cosby are major public figures and if i were a kid, i’d be devastated to hear these strong adult african american role models talk shit about me. it’s like, if they give up on me, why bother? shit, oprah up and took her white-washed ass to africa and she “hand-picked” those who are deserving of her well-endowed academic institution. it’s sad and kind of sick, really. what gives her the right to decide who deserves an education? i think spending all that time with white soccer moms on her show is starting to take effect. maybe ice cube had something there when he said that oprah doesn’t like black people in hip hop. irritating.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 1:03 am ¶
kim wrote:

>… spend more than half their paychecks on ludicrously overpriced Jimmy Choo sandals….Heaven forbid the “inner-city” teen even looks at a $200 pair of shoes the wrong way….That’s another pair of conflicting labels for you: “decadent” vs. “hood rich.”

Those same women end up sitting on Oprah’s alter, with her resident psychologist and momney manager helping the sad woman
1) admit her outrageous spending habits to her husband, and

2) understand that she seeks to validate herself through her unnecessary and outrageous shopping sprees.

As it has been said, the children have been inundated with the bling bling atmosphere most resembling a psychological miasma which plagues the psyches and inner chambers of the minds of this country’s ADULTS.

Still in all…$200 shoes? Brother, please. Let those chillens keep window shopping.

(And , granted, I can’t seem to move my whole family back to the city just yet, but my ten-year-old is eyeing a placemat periodic table of the elements at the local toy store. Oh, alright, dammit, he’s a little…different)

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 1:43 am ¶
S. A. Bonasi wrote:

Wait…Oprah is objecting to kids saying they need sneakers?

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 1:46 am ¶
eric daniels wrote:

I say don’t do anything for black Inner City kids if that’s the attitude of Oprah and others in this country. Osama Bin Laden would be more than happy to have recurits to wage his “Jihad” against this country. People seem to forget that the NOI has been successful in recuirting troubled Black Youth in this country for over 70 years, If I were a terrorist and wanted to strike a blow, I wouldn’t recurit Assar from Uof M, I would recurit Keyshawn and Tanesha from Harlem and housing projects nationwide to form cells in this country.

Rob your Uncle your just wanted to confirm his class racism against poor blacks and he just should have given his money to white and asian students. To the rest of you on this board Malcolm X and Muhammad knew the worst thing that could happen to this country was a black male (person) with “nothing to lose”. Because what he/she has is their anger and hate it just needs to be led in a direction and that could mean the end of this republic because they knew they were not going to be long suffering and patient. And they also knew the limits of sympathy this country had for them would not be long maybe a generation maximum before fatique and black elite anger would be a permanment part of the racial dynamic.

That was the main reason they preached racial separation because both were students of history and knew that black family displacment was being eroded (due to racism and Jim Crow)would led to greater damage unless they were able to develop independent black communities that were self - functioning. Because of that failure (mainly by white and black liberals themselves) during the last 40 years Now at this point in our history there is nothing economically distressed communities and a fatigue and bitter contempt for the black poor.

I never feared a ‘race war’ I feared that one day that those Black Youth being tossed aside like Winfrey and others are doing will be a opprounity not for the

gangs
pimps
hip- hop culture
sports

But Terrorists and others looking to destroy this country from within, and thanks to 40 years of conservative racial bashing and now Cosby and Winfrey- criticism with no economic plan, I think that day is fast appoarching and I hope I am long dead when that happens of seeing organized black groups three genrations excluded from American Life take their shot courtesy of Al- Gadea.

Bin Laden destroyed three out of four buildings and nearly bankrupted our insurance and airline industry in less than an hor and a half (and we are still recovering from it) You people on this board can underestimate Black Urban Youth all you want, but any subculture than can create a multi- billionare music, fashion, and economic empire but just using two turntables and a microphone in less than a generation should garner greater respect. And I know that for all their ‘Jihadist rheotric”, they respect black american urban kids.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 6:20 am ¶
Kaywil wrote:

Bin Laden? How the hell did Bin Laden get in here? Do your research. Many academics have spoken on the topic of 9/11. You will need to stop repeating CNN rhetoric in order to be credible here! Bin Laden….

And how do you explain the 4th building? It just fell because it was tired of standing up? Read the scientific reports and academic papers on the issue…it may answer a few questions.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/08/opinion/main2242387.shtml

Anyhoo, Oprah needs to be in Africa. For her to acknowledge that the continent where it ‘all began’ needs some boosting is commendable. In a nation of consumerism such as America, it feels like a defeat to teach young black kids that they can be as good as whites if they just…get an education? No, that NEVER worked. Hummm, get a job? Nope, that never worked either. Ah, let’s see…be consumers…? Holy cow! (and we have no problem with saving the Middle East from themselves with an estimated $170 Billion dollars this year.) What will it take for blacks to get their tax dollars back in the form of social programs like education and child care.

The fact of the matter is that Oprah is helping out a population of the world that gets ignored. American foreign policy dilutes its responsibilities through corporations. So when pharmaceutical companies work aggressively to stop the sales of generic HIV/AIDS medication to Africans because they’ll lose profits, or American corporations (and law makers) block the fair trade relationships of African countries with Western countries (through WTO/UN/EU/NAFTA etc.), or force them to buy genetically modified foods and seeds from the US instead of growing their own crops, it’s no wonder some people cry foul!

American racism is shown through its disinterest in Africa and its disinterest in African-Americans. ‘European-Americans’ are proud of who they are (as shown in their school books about Christopher Columbus and such…blah blah blah) because they have power and influence in the world. Boosting the self-esteem of Africans and boosting the economy and stability of African nations to reverse some of the damage colonialism caused would stand to boost respect for Africans (and African-Americans) all around the world. Hell, we may even get a page for ourselves in the history books, or they may even finally credit ancient Egypt (the birthplace of modern civilization) to us! (http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=24634a08ac06c9ae96400ee0728de9a0)

Think about it…when we go on vacation, we won’t be called ‘monkeys’ in Europe, or when we’re at a football match (soccer) we won’t be called ‘monkeys’, or when we’re at home, they’ll at least whisper “N***er” instead of yelling it…

Follow my lead?

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 10:51 am ¶
mamazilla wrote:

high jive - i think kids should be given an experience they can be proud of. as a parent, i always want to provide better (than what i had as a child) for my own children.

what i thought was odd was oprah complaining about inner city kids wanting ipods and then turning around and tsk-tsking or pointing the finger at the developers who questioned why poor african girls should get a luxury school implying that they didn’t “deserve” it.

it just seems incongruous to me.

btw - thanks for the book recommendation - living in chicago’s south side, i’m REALLY curious/eager to read it.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:11 am ¶
Chris wrote:

I can understand Oprah reasoning for building the school in South Africa because she can control it and ensure that it is use for the purpose it was built for, to educate those who would under normal situations would not have a chance to receive a great deal of education. Also, the hunger for education is still there is South Africa because apartheid was not that long ago and can not be easily be condense into a footnote in history as slavery has become in the United States. After the civil war there were many schools built in the South to educate blacks, both kids and adults, because the want was there by the masses of blacks. During that time blacks remember what happen to blacks who showed any signs of intelligence, like being able to read and/or write, they were either killed or had to flee from the area. Even after the civil war blacks who showed leadership qualities was driven away or died under suspicious conditions.

The educational system here in the United States is bias toward minorities. I am with Morgan Freedman on this one, who wants a black history month. In a sense it degrades black people achievements to one month, the shortest month at that, and usually the same small selected group of people are talked about year after year. The founding fathers are talked about in high esteem throughout most history books, but they neglect to point out that the majority of the founding father were slaver owners. The civil war is often portrayed as the war to end slavery, but leaves out the fact that there was slaves states on the Union side. Abraham Lincoln’s emancipation proclamation is celebrated as the end of slavery, when it only applied to slaves in Confederate States and was more of war measure than anything else to help collapse the Confederate States and to win support from anti-slavery groups. The Haitian Revolution is not talked about, image a country of former slaves beating back three invasion armies from colonial powers (France, Spain, and I think third one was Britain). So, when Oprah or any one else says that kids in the inner cities don’t want to learn they neglect the fact of what has happen in the United States to produce this effect. Oprah like many other well to do blacks has give up hope for the Americans of African decedent, I am talking about African decedents who ancestors were slaves, in favor of the easier solution of support blacks in countries where their history of their trials and the sacrifices of the previous generations are still fresh to keep them motivated. Quick note: Oprah was asked why there was not any white girls enrolled in the school and Oprah stated she is not beholden to whites in South Africa.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 12:00 pm ¶
mtevc wrote:

I think it’s easier for Oprah to divorce herself from the situation when they are African kids. This is not to demean what she did. I think it’s a wonderful thing, and more billionaires should be this philanthropic…like her and Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. If it weren’t for her, there are a number of historically black colleges that simply would have folded. But, I still worry that she wouldn’t have completed this same kind of effort in the U.S. If poor black kids, and let’s face it, many American kids (of all colors and economic levels) are lost in materialism, it’s the fault of the parents and of our society in general. Sheesh, even our economic model is built precariously on the American need to shop…and supporting retail. How shallow and circular and self-defeating is that? Our gov’t doesn’t encourage saving, and we aren’t a society that supports public education in a true sense. Fine…we have a tax system to support it, but we don’t demand higher standards at all of our public schools.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 1:00 pm ¶
kim wrote:

eruc daniels:

I would have to say that material comforts, and the desire to have as much of those as possible, even in the absence of their being easily attained, is still too much of a lure to the American, the Black/White/Brown/Blue American to raise in them a spiteful turn away from the promise of riches.

Hip-hop and its adherents may talk the talk of being ready to ‘blow the sh*t up,’ but they do not walk the walk.

I find it interesting that you speak of Black kids by naming them Keyshawn and Tanesha, and supposing that they live in housing projects.

Those are just soundbites that raise the pulse of those so inclined to hold to that belief as a widespread, and predominant truth for most Black Americans.

The NOI has, what, like 10,000 official members? If there were inroads to be made by a tenacious, viable group with an alternate economic and political platform than that which the freemarket system and the Democratic/Republican Parties offer, the Communists or NOI would already have a huge voting block in this country.

No, dearie. Christianity and capitalism, each weaving their own brands of brainwash on the Black American are too deeply entrenched as a way of life for there to be a mass exodus and defection toward…well, anything.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 1:27 pm ¶
kim wrote:

Rob,

you’ve got some built in problems that White people, nor Black people, placed on you.

Did your first love leave you for a Black woman/man?

You waste no time getting in your little digs when you can, and seeking to set them up to show some validity for your own racism.

Nappy new year to you, dude.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 1:33 pm ¶
Sewere wrote:

Here’s the thing, Oprah setting up the school in South Africa should be highly commended, and she continues to fund scholarships, programs and even schools here in the US… BUT she didn’t have to “defend” not building a school here in the US by blaming it on black kids… I mean, there are tons of black families and kids who really enjoy school and want to learn and read and go to college. So why condemn everyone based on a few people’s actions?

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 2:28 pm ¶
Just Wondering wrote:

I think many of you are focusing too much on Oprah’s exact words and not on her overall message.

Her point — that education is not valued ENOUGH in the inner city — is yet another wake-up call that too many are willing to parse or ignore or argue against in the name of racial pride.

Forget whether it’s right or wrong for a poor child to want an iPod. The reality is that whole generations of these kids are wasting their lives and their potential and we’re debating semantics.

Is there anyone who can argue that education is the key to success in today’s world? Is there anyone who argue that NOT ENOUGH poor, inner-city black students — and frankly, too many not-so-poor suburban black students — aren’t focused enough on making the most of the educational opportunities given to them?

Oprah may not have used the best choice of words but she was on point with her message.

As we’ve seen recently in the NY Times and other publications, the educational system and non-profits in this country have invested billions of dollars and decades of time trying to close the “education gap” between blacks and whites and we’ve gotten nowhere.

There are no easy answers — no magic solutions — and people on both sides of the “funding versus culture” debate are right to a certain extent.

But that still leaves us with a massive — and growing — problem with no end in sight. Oprah and others like her are probably giving up, figuring they can make a bigger impact with their dollars overseas.

Maybe we should listen to the message she and others are sending, and not be so quick to criticize or dismiss their points of view.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 3:00 pm ¶
Rob wrote:

Kim, first off, don’t be stupid.

I’m giving you, and everyone else, an experience that my uncle had and trying to relate it to what Oprah might be feeling. It has nothing to do with me.

My example was to show how my uncle, and Oprah’s, mentality is incorrect and why their idea of just donating cash isn’t going to work until we can help the black adolescent community understand and value the commodity known as higher education.

I don’t think it’s the kids fault but rather our society’s for failing to properly address the problem because when we don’t, it translates into frustrated people, like my uncle, when they actually try to do some good.

Thank you for trying to attack my masculinity by implying how I’m less of a man by insinuating my “first” was stolen by a black person.

You’re an fuckin’ idiot and a dirtbag. Pardon my French.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 4:01 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

It took 18 Arab Nationals with enough hate, religon and fervor to bomb three buildings and for this country to spend vast amounts of money on a needless war. I can understand why conservatives loathe liberals like you some of you who ‘think that can’t happen here’. Your sense of history is missing here. The Nazis recurited their political party from disaffected youth who were poor and apatheic themselves. They just needed a cause and someone with charisma and that happened to be Adolph Hitler.

The NOI may claim 10,ooo memebers (or more depending on who you ask) but the millions of black folks used their example in their lives and the majority of Black Muslims are either shia or sunni (and a great many from foriegn countries) never believe what is being reported on American CNN ( Britney Spears anyone) What I saw in Miami last summer were the beginings of discontent and it will only grow. For the past 40 years the CIA ,FBI and national security groups have been at HBCU’s keeping an eye on Sunni/ Shia Black muslim activity (a special that was on 20/20 10 years ago)

I would advise some of you ’so concerned’ with black selfishiness whether it is an IPOD, Tennis Shoes and other “kid things’ to stop watching rap videos, and listen to what the kids have to say, which nobody on this board seems to want to do because they feel intellectually and moral superior to them. Liberals want to help but now they have become just like Conservatives fatiqued and frustrated because the solutions haven’t come quickly. Well now the problems in the poor Inner City are in White Rural areas (thanks to crank) and their kids are starting to mirror the same attitudes about school, work and country.

Since you Libs won last year, I would like to see how you handle these problems in which conservatives have proved to be incompatent from the domestic to foriegn policy and the war on terrorism, but since most of you still think that it’s

capitialism
greed
rap music
sexism
dierespect for education
family structure
genetics

that is ruining black youth I wish you, President Barack Obama and the country luck in the net 5-10 years years because you are going to need it . That’s not racial paranoia talking on my part but reality.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 4:20 pm ¶
Rob wrote:

If anything, I’ve been personally trying to steer him away from being jaded when it comes to helping poor minorities with scholarships rather than just donating it to an Ivy League college that probably won’t even appreciate it.

My uncle was concerned with helping others but nowadays, he’s more interested in getting his name on a wing of a hospital or a high profile scholarship to high end schools.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 4:39 pm ¶
Nina wrote:

Sewere I totally agree with you. Let Oprah do what she pleases, with her money, but do not demean inner city youth in the process. Her statements were just too off the mark from someone who should know better. Wanting nice things is not a crime, it is human nature otherwise none of use would get out of bed and go to work each day. Even those South African girls want nice things. As someone else pointed out, education in many developing countires is a direct path to nice things. Whereas here in the U.S., edcuation is just one of many paths, and frankly, not the most lucrative. Most of the people in the magazines and on television didn’t finish high school let alone college. Athletes, models, singers, reality TV stars, all these people are making millions and it has nothing to do with education. And you wonder why an inner city child does not “value” education as Oprah said. I think the U.S. as a country does not value education. If they did there would be decent salaries for teachers, nationwide universal pre K, appropriate special edcuation for all those in need, no over crowded classrooms, exorbitant college tuitions would be kept in check, all public schools would have enough up to date text books etc. When you have NYC parents hustling to get their kids into $25,ooo per year private elementary schools and kids from inner city Baltimore getting a better education in a rural area in Kenya as shown in the documentary, “Boys of Baraka,” you know there is a real problem with the U.S. educational system.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 5:48 pm ¶
Crystal B. wrote:

Kim, I think you hit a soft spot….or the nail right on the head. What do you think Rob?

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 5:53 pm ¶
Meg wrote:

thanks Lyonside for the tip and i’ll try posting again

I think from the start carmen’s article moved the whole topic of conversation away from where it should be: the value of education. Compare how education is valued in south africa where it’s not seen as a birthright but a privilege vs western countries where it’s a nuisance. How about the attitude on our airwaves of being against “those educated elite”, “academics who don’t know real work”, “those elites don’t know about average folks” — it’s frustrating to have being educated as a dirty word. In a lot of schools being the smartest kid in the class is also a way to have no friends unless you can also play sports. Instead we’re arguing over whether it’s racist to say a poor black kid can’t have an ipod- no brainer i thought- and something about bin laden i don’t have the time to digest fully.

Within this general disdain for education, we’re also teaching inner city kids that their education is not important to us and by extension that they are not important. So when they say what they want to be when they grow up it’s 50 cent or kobe bryant not lawyer, doctor, astronaut, firefighter. By virtue of schools which don’t give kids the CHANCE to get into an ivy league or even a good 4 yr college they’re being stamped with no expectations from the word go. There’s no or few AP classes so even the best students can’t go into the higher realms of education.

How this relates to what oprah’s doing is that for the moment there is a situation in south africa where this influx of money will make a difference for right now. I think it’s wrong for us to argue about why oprah didn’t give money to american kids when the argument should be why is it that inner city kids have to compete with poor south african families who make less than $US720 a month? Are we ok with a situation where the government is let off the hook cos it’s fun to engage in some celebrity bashing?

I think oprah should have chosen her words more carefully or been asked to address the issue more deeply than a 1 line soundbite. I can’t blame a kid who sits in a freezing cold, rundown, poorly equipped classroom with 40 other kids for not valuing education. For counting down the days till he can get out and find something else to do. The type of education they receive is substandard and i don’t blame them for not wanting it - compared to a 40 year old textbook with half it’s pages torn out i’d want an ipod too. But getting hung up over oprah let’s too many others off the hook for creating a situation where private money is needed to keep a PUBLIC system afloat.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 6:43 pm ¶
HighJive wrote:

>>Her point — that education is not valued ENOUGH in the inner city — is yet another wake-up call that too many are willing to parse or ignore or argue against in the name of racial pride.>>

>>…just donating cash isn’t going to work until we can help the black adolescent community understand and value the commodity known as higher education.>>

I apologize in advance if I’m misreading this, but…

Part of the problem with the statements is the implication that the “not valued enough” issue is rooted within the inner city. If we really want to generate solutions, we have to erase the racial component. It’s not a racial issue. It’s an economic one. It’s not about color. It’s about class. Yes, there are poor folks in Africa who need assistance. But as Hurricane Katrina revealed, there are poor folks in the U.S. who need help as badly as anyone else.

Don’t diss Oprah for abandoning our inner cities. The U.S. abandoned them first. The U.S. “gave up” long before Oprah did. We shouldn’t expect her to bail out the country.

Not sure if what I just typed makes sense. If not, I recommend a few books: Savage Inequalities by Jonathan Kozol and The Truly Disadvantaged by William Julius Wilson. Read one of these books and then come back to post another comment.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 6:49 pm ¶
Rob wrote:

I think it’s because someone used a personal attack when I was trying to share a personal story with everyone on why people like Oprah think this way, Crystal B.

Thanks for your sarcastic input though. It’s about as comparable to what’s generated in my colon after eating 5 tacos.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 7:05 pm ¶
merq wrote:

I’m glad we all recognize Oprah’s right to do with her money as she pleases. I admire Big O a whole lot, and often have to remind people that it’s HER money, ’cause let’s face it, people will have something to bitch about no matter what she does. (For example, would you believe some people on another blog actually ripped on her for taking in “only” 150 students??)

I was, like always, defending this same right of Oprah’s to do spend her $ as she chose (and pointing out that she chose a very generous way) when I found out about that comment. As was said above, donate to whomever you please, Oprah, but don’t denigrate another group to justify it.

Meg,
While I definitely share your disgust with the anti-intellectualism (and might I add, a gross cultural complex… but that’s for another day) prevalent in America today, my initial question still stands. If America as a whole doesn’t value education, why are inner city/urban/at-risk/similar-idiotic-euphemism-for-black-and-latino kids being tarred and feathered specially for it.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 8:18 pm ¶
kim wrote:

Rob wrote:
>Kim, first off, don’t be stupid.

Well, you finally said that which you’ve been itching to say since you started posting on this site.

>My example was to show how my uncle, and Oprah’s, mentality is incorrect and why their idea of just donating cash isn’t going to work until we can help the black adolescent community understand and value the commodity known as higher education.

If you have ever spoken in such a broad-minded, considered way, I’ve never read it. Didn’t read it, nor infer it here, either.

Perhaps you should make a more concerted effort to actually say that which your injured psyche understands to be a language of building bridges, rather than continuing to bolster your open lack for tolerance, for the way Blacks live and operate in this country, for inquiries to your bitterness. (Nod to Just Wondering, here.)

>Thank you for trying to attack my masculinity by implying how I’m less of a man by insinuating my “first” was stolen by a black person.

Hmm, attack your masculinity. Rob, since you started posting here, all you’ve talked about is your injured sense of self due to rejection and teasing by Asian women. If your injury at my inquiry of you ingnited your short fuse, I hope you enjoyed it, as it is obviously the only time you get hot.

>You’re an fuckin’ idiot and a dirtbag. Pardon my French.

Once again, you’ve only shown how small you are (small, my brother, small).

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 10:12 pm ¶
kim wrote:

Crystal B:
Hey, woman.

Merq, and Sewere:
I understand all of your points, and they were succintly and (merq:) dramatically made :). I don’t whole-heartedly find issue with desiring things, but neither do I find issue with Oprah’s tactical offense in her defense. It has been made since the beginning of time about different segments of every nation’s people, and sometimes it can be made to jar people into an angry response of ‘proving THEM wrong,’ and motivating people for the better.

Though…

eric daniels:

while you have some interesting ideas about the nature of the impact of the discontent of poor people in this nation, the isolationist, keep-my-hands-clean history of our existence does not support a home-grown peoples’ exodus to a political and economic state that is anathema to that which is practised here as Divine Right.

Your vitriol is spilling over into something rather … spit-spewing.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 10:22 pm ¶
Meg wrote:

Merq:
>If America as a whole doesn’t value education, why are inner city/urban/at-risk/similar-idiotic-euphemism-for-black-and-latino kids being tarred and feathered specially for it.

My maybe poorly made point was that we should be going beyond arguing over whether black/latino kids value education more or less then sth african kids. I’m sure rich white kids would want ipods more than an education but that’s cos we see education as a given, kinda like having your toilet flush and clean drinking water coming out of the taps. I think if all we take out of this story is that inner city kids (yes i know it’s a euphemism) have as much of a right to ipods as white kids then we’ve missed a chance to have a deeper look at their situation.
I agree that there’s a danger that this conversation will make it look like it’s something peculiar about “those kids” that makes them not appreciative of education. However, i think a discussion on how education is valued in society as a whole and then what a poor excuse of an education is offered to the inner cities (and some rural communities) needs to be had so that people can’t spin the line of “we need to teach those in the inner cities to love learning (the way we good white suburban folk do)”

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 10:31 pm ¶
Rob wrote:

>Well, you finally said that which you’ve been itching to say since you started posting on this site.
That’s true and the reason is very simple. You come off as arrogant and exhibit a condescending know-it-all attitude towards other opinions and proceed to insult others when they attempt to contribute another point in the dialogue.
>If you have ever spoken in such a broad-minded, considered way, I’ve never read it. Didn’t read it, nor infer it here, either.
Perhaps you should make a more concerted effort to actually say that which your injured psyche understands to be a language of building bridges, rather than continuing to bolster your open lack for tolerance, for the way Blacks live and operate in this country, for inquiries to your bitterness. (Nod to Just Wondering, here.)
That’s your problem. Not mine.
My example didn’t project an opinion but displayed how others *might* have the same delusional mentality as Oprah. Nothing more. I wasn’t looking to “build bridges” nor did I have solutions to the problem at hand. I just used my uncle as a personal example to show others how their mind works. If you haven’t interpreted that correctly, that’s your problem, not mine. I even posted it twice about how my uncle’s, along with Oprah’s, opinion of the inner city is the wrong approach. There was no way to interpret this incorrectly unless you willingly wanted to.
>Hmm, attack your masculinity. Rob, since you started posting here, all you’ve talked about is your injured sense of self due to rejection and teasing by Asian women. If your injury at my inquiry of you ingnited your short fuse, I hope you enjoyed it, as it is obviously the only time you get hot.
You must be thinking of someone else as I never said such a thing. Nice try. I mentioned that I had personal self image issues due to a white controlled American media and I can understand it’s effects on minority communities which is why media representation is so important to me personally. I even stated that I had to “unlearn” some anger at the white population. Other than that, I’m just peachy.
>Once again, you’ve only shown how small you are (small, my brother, small).
I’m going to take the higher ground and not be baited into your racial stereotyping again. What I *am* going to state is that my anger doesn’t come from your “amazing” ability to bait someone but rather the fact that you resorted to personal insults when I was merely offering another perspective. You’re, well, a jerk.
To be completely honest, now I know *exactly* why whites refuse to talk about racism. It eventually turns into a blame game where blacks throw around accusations of someone else being racist when their community is criticized in the least. Tah!

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 10:56 pm ¶
merq wrote:

Well-put, Meg. Definitely in agreement.

Kim:
Hey, I had to set the scene so my point would penetrate.
While I agree that our people do need to take action, I have a problem with folks trying to “shame” a people into action by fueling a fire that burns against them. Even if Big O’s comments were meant to motivate the kids, they still make it harder for every “inner city” kid walking into a job interview.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 10:57 pm ¶
merq wrote:

Rob:

“To be completely honest, now I know *exactly* why whites refuse to talk about racism. It eventually turns into a blame game where blacks throw around accusations of someone else being racist when their community is criticized in the least. Tah!
“

Rob, Rob, Rob! Now, why’d you have to take it there? You were doing just fine until you did. tsk.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:01 pm ¶
Rob wrote:

Let me simplify that for you because I don’t want to explain the same argument twice.

1.) My uncle has the same mentality as Oprah. They have been jaded because they think poor minorities don’t care. This, in turn, causes them to not care.

2.) I believe their approach is wrong and until the problem is fixed correctly, Oprah and my uncle are always going to be wrong with their approach.

3.) I’m going to inform the African American Culture Club (as well as some Puerto Rican friends that belong to Latino clubs) in my college of your post, Kim. I’m sure that they’ll get a kick out of your delusions regarding my personality, especially since some of them won college scholarships, in the past, from my family’s contributions to the school. (They stopped giving individual scholarships.)

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:08 pm ¶
fgs_sfdg wrote:

Well, I don’t know if Kim’s a “fuckin’ idiot” or a “dirbag.” But she did post an idiotic and dirtbaggish? reply to Rob.

Kim, can’t you find a post in which he’s actually displaying his “intolerance” to respond to with a snide remark?

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:11 pm ¶
Rob wrote:

Merq,

Why was that statement wrong?

I merely cited a personal example to help others understand another perspective and get a virtual lynching because of my efforts.

Additionally, not only was the point not debated, but I was personally attacked (the type of attack wasn’t important but was merely an observation of the type of attack, in this case, masculinity).

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:12 pm ¶
fgs_sfdg wrote:

Rob:

“To be completely honest, now I know *exactly* why whites refuse to talk about racism. It eventually turns into a blame game where blacks throw around accusations of someone else being racist when their community is criticized in the least. Tah!
“

Ah, what the hell? When was this posted? lol.
Fine, I take back 40% of what I said.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:13 pm ¶
merq wrote:

Rob:

As you rack your brain, trying to guess what the hell that merq dude is on about this time, I want you to note the number of times you’ve used variations of the word “personal” in describing your tiff with Kim.

Then re-read the comment that both fgs_sfdg and I have quoted.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:28 pm ¶
merq wrote:

Oh yeah, and…

“I’m going to inform the African American Culture Club (as well as some Puerto Rican friends that belong to Latino clubs) in my college of your post, Kim. I’m sure that they’ll get a kick out of your delusions regarding my personality, especially since some of them won college scholarships, in the past, from my family’s contributions to the school. (They stopped giving individual scholarships.) “

Dude. SERIOUSLY??

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:32 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>not only was the point not debated

Um, what was my comment, chopped liver? I really don’t take it personally or anything, but don’t say that EVERYONE didn’t care about your comment, or that EVERYONE got personal. Sheesh… selective reading strikes again.

Good rule of thumb: if you don’t WANT a fight, don’t RESPOND to fightin’ words. If you wanta fight, then go ahead, and don’t be surprised when it turns, I dunno, personal. And in everyone’s defense, it’s an online forum, I think there’s some sarcasm that’s being lost around here (the entire site) as of late.

And if you want a discussion, how about responding to the serious posts?

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:42 pm ¶
kim wrote:

fgs_sfdg:

Actually, the tone of my last comments to Rob found me pulling on his previous posts here at Racialicious.

In a thread about Asian Women/White Men dating, he tells us that he was told by many Asian women that they would not date an Asian guy, and he has been rejected many times based on their ideas of what Asian guys are like.

He has stated many times that Blacks are violent (if Asians were to take a play from their playbook…), and expressed that he has no need to be tolerant (now, to be fair, I don’t remember the reason for the tolerant post comment by him, so I am extrapolating), and more than a few times his insistence on making demeaning, inciteful statements about Blacks, even while seeking to make a statement for the need for full consideration of Asian male’s concerns would have sufficed.

Rob stated that I have a condescending attitude toward other people’s opinions. That is the pot. Rob believes, in his hierarchy of the oppressed minority, that Blacks have “had their time” (quotes my own) and that there is no relevance or similarity to what Asians experience and what has been the general predisposition of Everyone to This Land toward Blacks since we arrived. It is Rob that does not ever want parity or examination of the connections to be had.

The first time I saw Sewere on this site, he found outrageous dissent with some ludicrous, incendiary posting of Rob, and posted to that effect within minutes of my own considered and measured response.

The ONLY dismissive take I’ve had on anyone’s post was a rather opinionated and dramatic response to a television production of Alex Haley’s Queen.

Rob, you may think that you’ve often put in your qualifiers and added references to indicate what you mean to convey, but re-read your shit. Your INTENT is as lacking as …well, you know.

For instance…where you thought you stated that it is an ignorance on the part of Non-Asians for whom the issues of the representation of Asian (American?) men does not seem critical, and where you posted in large letters that you had clearly written such yet it had not been read by the poster , herpeapod (me), YOU HAD NOT WRITTEN IT.

The concerted effort to speak that which is your actual intent, and not your seemingly instinctual rancor, is a skill you have not mastered. Read some of your posts. Your waste stinks man, and your friends don’t tell you so.

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:44 pm ¶
kim wrote:

Lyonside:

You know, I posted about the Schomburg to buttress your statement about community support, and to dispel the synonymous grouping of ‘inner city teen’ to ‘criminal minded.’

Rob:

I asked about your uncles’ reaching out to needy Asian kids to inquire as to why the turn he took was to give to ‘well-off Asians’ and others. The needy are the needy, across the board, yes?

Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 11:53 pm ¶
fgs_sfdg wrote:

Kim,

Thanks for providing some background.

“Rob …. Your INTENT is as lacking as …well, you know.”

But this is the second time you’ve used this insult. Are you trying to make yourself a target?

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 12:01 am ¶
kim wrote:

fgs_sfdg wrote:

Target? That assumes he can shoot anything.

Alright, I’ll take it back. Rob can shoot, Rob has bullets in his gun.

No, I am not seeking to further ensue the Wrath of Rob. Nor do I wish to engage in recrimination and name hurling.

But let’s look at this…in the arena of questioning, albeit in a pop-psychologist-on-the-Dr. Laura Show-manner, I sought to make an inquiry of someone who I regularly find to be … bigoted.

I have stated before that I thought he went too far in his comments, and asked him why. As you can see, from his posts here, he was just waiting to go off.

Who started cursing? And then insulting someone who thought his reaction, beyond being a refutation and statement of displeasure at my line of inquiry, also a bit hot-headed?

fgs_sfdg (what a moniker!):

What is your suggestion?

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 12:13 am ¶
fgs_sfdg wrote:

“Target? That assumes he can shoot anything.

Alright, I’ll take it back. Rob can shoot, Rob has bullets in his gun. ”

Yeah…that wasn’t funny nor clever, just incoherent.

You accuse him of dwelling on the same subject (asian-male stereotypes) and of making offensive remarks to other minorities along the way. But you criticize him for intolerance and attack him with an asian-male stereotype. I feel unoriginal just stating this fact because it happens over and over again.

“Who started cursing? And then insulting someone who thought his reaction, beyond being a refutation and statement of displeasure at my line of inquiry, also a bit hot-headed?”

You can write with such eloquence and manage to sound like a preteen at the time. Who cares who started it?

“fgs_sfdg (what a moniker!):”

Go back to the CNN Race Segment posts. There was an angry white guy whose arguments spirraled into nonsense; he eventually poked fun of my moniker, which make me weep.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 12:31 am ¶
fgs_sfdg wrote:

Oh right, my suggestion. Simple. Criticize Rob for his offensive remarks. Lay off the SMALL ASIAN PENIS jokes. In case your subtlety went over a few heads.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 12:38 am ¶
merq wrote:

fgs_sfdg:

Okay, in Kim’s defense (inviting, Mae’s imaginary friend to trot out the “Captain Save-a-Negro” line again), I was thisclose to asking you what was up with the name, myself… just ’cause without knowing its significance, a bunch of consonants separated by an underscore is a bitch to type correctly every time.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 12:38 am ¶
HighJive wrote:

i hope like hell that the kids in oprah’s new school never have to read this thread.

you guys are making donald trump and rosie o’donnell blush.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 1:13 am ¶
Rob wrote:

Regarding Lyonside,

>Good rule of thumb: if you don’t WANT a fight, don’t RESPOND to fightin’ words. If you wanta fight, then go ahead, and don’t be surprised when it turns, I dunno, personal. And in everyone’s defense, it’s an online forum, I think there’s some sarcasm that’s being lost around here (the entire site) as of late.

My personal example was of my uncle’s experiences, not mine. Wouldn’t it make sense to criticize my uncle rather than me? What’s going on is just a situation of “killing the messenger.”

Regarding Kim,

>In a thread about Asian Women/White Men dating, he tells us that he was told by many Asian women that they would not date an Asian guy, and he has been rejected many times based on their ideas of what Asian guys are like.
He has stated many times that Blacks are violent (if Asians were to take a play from their playbook…), and expressed that he has no need to be tolerant (now, to be fair, I don’t remember the reason for the tolerant post comment by him, so I am extrapolating), and more than a few times his insistence on making demeaning, inciteful statements about Blacks, even while seeking to make a statement for the need for full consideration of Asian male’s concerns would have sufficed.

Erm, no. I’ve actually went into the topic of Asian women stereotyping Asian men were because of media stereotyping which is one of the reasons why I can see the destructive effects of American media and how it can warp someone’s outlook on others. I then used my own experiences to help prove that media plays a big part of social thinking.
Oh? I have stated that blacks are violent? And I have actually expressed an opinion that criticized racial tolerance? Where at? Please prove it. Post up some of my previous comments. If anything, the *only* thing I’ve criticized is that America focuses too much on black issues and should consider paying more attention to Latinos, Asian Americans, Arabs, and Native Americans when it comes to racial issues.
This is the only issue I am willing to admit I am angry about which is the constant focus of the black/white paradigm in America. This is about the only thing you were right about and if that’s what you consider racist, it’s a new definition of the word because I’ve never heard it before.
I’ve repeated it several times that this was just a personal experience that my uncle faced, not me. I’ve even spent time explaining my dialogue with him on how his thinking was incorrect and why it wasn’t working. How can someone possibly misinterpret that?
And to be honest, I’ve started with curses but the insults were started by you at #27. fgs_sfdg was the only person to point it out that you’ve used an Asian male stereotype to attack an Asian male.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 1:19 am ¶
Rob wrote:

With respect to this topic, I don’t think I’m going to add any more to this discussion because it’s taking the wrong course.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 1:24 am ¶
kim wrote:

Rob…Genuine question:

When you took offense at my line of questioning as to the nature of your (perceived) hurt and rancor with Black people, how did you construe that to be an attack on malehood? It went to the nature of embitterment.

I thought about that only after my last post, and realize that your inferred sense of attack regarding maleness had to do with you inferring that I was suggesting you were left by a woman BECAUSE of some sexual inadequacy, and that suggests the lack-of-virility, non-sexual nature of the media representations that you often speak of.

That being said, you jumped the gun in an area in which you are sensitive, but that had never been at the core of, or in any way tangential to, my ‘why are you full of rancor’ comment.

Unless there are other Robs routinely posting here, everything I summed up about the nature of your previous posts rings right on the money from where I sit. Perception being everything.

fgs_sfdg :

I know the angry white guy of whom you speak; I chose to ignore him because he went STRAIGHT to mad.

I wasn’t making fun of your tag…expressing the dexterity challenge I was having in typing it out (hey, merq). I actually saw you respond to someone about the tag being a relic from some other part of your life, and was simply speaking in-line with that.

Also, while I appreciate that you seem to be trying to referee here, and to be attentive, I think that once Rob got angry, and THEN I started in on him, taking the easy road to anyone with such a short fuse (as in temper only this time), it was easy to pick. As a woman might with ANY man. But I think you dropped the ball on attentiveness at this point, and held that his interpretation of my ‘rancor’ statement was laden with Asian-stereotype jabs.

And, by the way, anything I said to him tonight was said to HIM, not to ‘Asian men.’ As I see it, he assumed that I was, conversely, holding to the (so-called positive) stereotype about Black men’s sexual prowess and/or reproduction organs, and I’ve no interest in engaging in that fodder either.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 3:27 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>You know, I posted about the Schomburg to buttress your statement about community support

I know you did Kim, and both the comments got ignored *shrug*

Everyone’s got a shorter fuse here of late, that’s all. And if someone’s going to go “hey, everyone’s attacking me,” I feel obligated to go, “Dude, how? my weapons are still on the floor?”

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 9:31 am ¶
Rob wrote:

You can believe whatever you wish, be real or imagined. That’s the beauty of this country.

I specifically asked you why you believe I have a history of making snide remarks and unwarranted barbs towards the black community but you have yet to refer to a specific example. This leaves me with the idea that you’re either exaggerating my comments, taking them out of context (such as how I’m so bitter because I’ve been rejected by Asian women before) or simply making them up. There is also a feeling that what you perceive as racism when, in actuality, it was just selective criticism. My personal philosophy is that out of most of the problems you’ll face in life, 50% of your fault. This means that while I agree that racism is a big problem in this country, I also spend 50% of my time criticizing the “victim.”

I do this to all communities regardless of race. When I discuss Asian American media representatives, the criticism of Asian Americans themselves is also present. Whenever I rant about how Muslims and Arabs get treated poorly in the United States, I also talk about how their own communities do very little to condemn foreign and domestic anti-Americanism.

I have a thicker hide than that to hold grudges from an internet personality. My outrage over your comments was not necessary because it was a jab directed at me personally. While I take internet insults with a grain of salt, my problem with your specific insult is that you chose to insult someone, whose demographic is constantly plagued with, using a specific insult that becomes racial-ized when it comes in contact with a specific group of people.

Case in point, I frequently trade playful insults with many of my friends. We call each other “fools, morons, and dumbasses” in jest. However, it was brought to my attention that many of my black friends don’t mind playful insults but they would appreciate it if I didn’t call them “stupid, lazy, or moronic” because of the lingering stereotype of blacks being intellectually inferior. He also mentioned why he doesn’t make asexual jokes regarding Asian men to me in front of others that are not in our clique of friends.

I understood him perfectly.

Another good example was on that show “Black/White” where two families traded races. The black mother jumped all over the white mother when the white mother referred to blacks as “beautiful black creatures.” She didn’t mean it as an insult. However, I can see where blacks will take offense to that because they have been historically categorized as “animals and beasts.” This is the exact reason why you don’t refer to Asians and Latinos as “flood, horde, invasion, etc.” My point being that specific insults, though generic, become racial-ized when applied to specific groups.

Is there any other way to take your insult in post #27 without interpreted it as an assault on “sexual inadequacy?” The purpose of your comment was to insult me, to imply that my imaginary women was lost to a black individual. You obviously didn’t post that comment to make blacks look better but rather to insult me so it was a direct assault on sexual inadequacy.

Why didn’t you, say, insult my intelligence?

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 9:46 am ¶
Rob wrote:

Whoops. This part got cut off:

Perhaps I overreacted to your first insult but it was not with merit. You chose to use an insult that could just have been coincidental and it could indeed have been used against a man of any color. However, my gripe with your comments was that you reached for an insult, not once but twice, that has great social stigma in the Asian community just like how one can call anyone “stupid” but how it was extra string when used on blacks.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 9:57 am ¶
Tonya wrote:

If every person who opened their mouth to complain about Oprah sent a check for $100+ to their nearest inner city school - then problem solved. Or not (see DC public school system w/ the highest spending per student in the nation & one of the worst school systems). So many people are willing to complain about another’s choice to do well, but won’t take action themselves - like people who complain about celebrities adopting international children. If Oprah has a dream and the money to make that dream come true & her actualization of that dream is something extravagant, beautiful & life altering for the recipient - more power to Oprah & those beautiful black girls. How wonderful that she recognized their complete humanity & dignity as human beings, including their desire to gain knowledge & be physically well groomed. As for Oprah not knowing where she came from, I imagine the circumstances of those African girls are pretty close to her own roots. And more power to her for her criticisms of hip-hop & the ethic in many inner-city schools that equate doing well in school & speaking standard english with “acting white.” I grew up in one of those communities & went on to earn a professional degree, in spite of and not because of, that ethic. I have also mentored students from those schools & a BET mentality of what it means to be black & successful is pervasive. Who knows - Oprah may have visited an American school w/ the intention of writing a huge check & decided not to based on her observations.
And please do not get me started on thugs like 50 cent having the nerve to criticize Oprah & speak on anything relating to women, espsecially black women, given his (& a good portion of the hip hop community) trashing of the image of black women worlwide. Likewise, I applaud Bill Cosby & his call to the black community to get right. Neither Bill or Oprah is a perfect messenger, nor do they get it right all the time, but they are on the right path.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 1:07 pm ¶
kim wrote:

Tonya,

I don’t believe money will solve the problem. It takes an express modeling of engagement and transmission of behaviors and ideals, convictions stood by, and a willingness to reach out and touch.

Money helps, but then part of the problem, according to conservatives, is that money has been thrown at the problem with no real change in the deteriorating state of affairs in the ‘inner city.” Money is but part of the problem.

Rob: you did not ask that I ‘prove it,’ you challenged me to make a case study out of you, and you don’t hold my interest that way.

I’ve asked many things of you in many threads, and you have responded exactly once, to say that the forum in general did not support the kind of discussion that you sought to have, and that I encouraged you to continue, as it would have been eye-opening to me.

Regarding thin skins: the referenced Black/White family trading spaces-stype show you mentioned was a classic case of people being ready to blow, and finding the first opening, and then running with the pulsing vibe that exists in a mob rule situation. Intent is about , say, 40% of what is important in communicating, with manner, tone and actual content filling the rest. Any person being honest with herself, such as Kim, knew INSTANTLY that the white mother of whom you speak perfectly intended for her statement to be received as an open-hearted expression of admiration of the beauty aesthetic of the other woman, the Black woman.

People who jumped all over that woman’s case WANTED to do so. Check out the body posture of the people in the room. If I am remembering correctly, sistahs (gotta love it, ‘ah’) began gathering themselves into themselves as the woman was speaking, and the sense of offense taken and discord ballooned as the fervor jumped from one person to the next, and the white woman felt defeated, confused, deflated.

It was such a bogus expression of the attempt to understand others, to reach across boundaries, that it is a classic example of why the one or two hour ‘expose’ or ‘look inside’ is pointless, and a form of yellow journalism made to look legitimate because some respected person of note has signed on to the project.

If your Black friends (and I love that you invoked them) take offense at the ways you joust with them, and need to be treated differently ACROSS THE BOARD, then I wonder about the friendships: are they conditional, due to time and place only? are they organic expressions of where your interests and common points are free to roam, and have a home?

How can it be that an entire group, not one or two with a specific history that makes them sensitive to particular barbs, takes exception with certain jabs that happen in a social setting, and do not leave them there on the floor to die when the party is over? How do you take particular offense at such jabs when it is part and parcel of how (many) men poke, and communicate, with each other? You take offense for your RACE?

There is so much that is load here, and you feel it comes from me. Of course, I think differently. I was in no way offended as a BLACK person that you called me stupid. I was offended as an individual who does not hold herself to be perceived as such, who is deserving of a response, who presents an argument when she feels it is merited, and who inquires when it is needed.

If you want to pick and examine through your posts, my inquiries of you, and your (non-) or dismissive-, or angry and inflammatory-, responses, then let’s do. Together.

It’s a dance that takes two. I have no reason to even KNOW derogatory expressions used against Asians, and no of none but one that was in popularity around 1970, is four letters long, and starts with G. I have never used it, and would not hurl anyother sort of racial attack, but question your leaning in as close to the line as can be construed to be ‘to the letter,’ though definitely in violation of ‘the spirit.’

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 1:38 pm ¶
mr guy wrote:

People, people. we are talking about oprah right?Man, people are quick to snap at each other(yeah I’m guilty too)

Personally, I think what Oprah is doing is great.They need all the help they can get out there.I do think she should be careful not to dismiss those inner city children, I was one on those myself(inner city “at risk” kid).So I know how tempting it is to do that. Especially when you get beyond that point.I will agree with rob and others and say that you have to treat the symptom
first, before putting on a band aid.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 2:54 pm ¶
Rob wrote:

What in God’s name did you just babble about?

I used honest examples to help explain my point of view and then you start debating my examples. You accused me of posting racist statements but when I asked for proof of my comments on this site, you said you have no interest in writing an anaylsis of my persona. If you accuse someone of something, the burdon of proof is on the accuser.

Forget it. You win. There’s no sense in explaining my point of view since you’re obviously not willing to listen. This was my fault. Next time, I’ll just be smarter next time when it comes to ignoring your posts.

I do find your last paragraph interesting though. You stated that:

>It’s a dance that takes two. I have no reason to even KNOW derogatory expressions used against Asians, and no of none but one that was in popularity around 1970, is four letters long, and starts with G. I have never used it, and would not hurl anyother sort of racial attack, but question your leaning in as close to the line as can be construed to be ‘to the letter,’ though definitely in violation of ‘the spirit.’

That forms the crux of my argument. You have no desire to know derogatory expressions used against Asians is *exactly* why you don’t understand why I took such offense to your comments.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 3:23 pm ¶
gatamala wrote:

Yes. Savage Inequalities is a must read.

Education in this country is NOT valued. Regarding [some] inner city kids, their environment often kills their ability to learn. Not seeing people who have benefited from education kills the desire. Factor in a parent (usually just one) or grandmother with limited education and an unstimulating home (no books, no conversation, no newspaper, no computer, violence, no light, subpar nourishment) and you will end up w/ someone who doesn’t see the point to education. If anything, Oprah should spend $ (sorry merq) on adult education courses (reading, finances, job skills, parenting skills etc….)

I suggest folks calm down and reread:
Nina @33
Meg @ 35

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 4:06 pm ¶
kim wrote:

Never said I didn’t understand your sense of injury, and that it went to a racial-group injury.

Said it was not central to, at the core of, nor in any way tangential to a racial slight in its inception or use by me. Yes, it could be extrapolated to be such, were it present in the tone, or supported in any way by my speech to you as being Asian.

Said the comment (mine) went to embitterment (yours) and temperament (yours), and that the resulting sense of offense was based on your perception of my taking racial aim at you, a man, as being constrained to your existence as Asian Man.

Your racial aim at me, (as stated by you to be your understanding of my objection) was, presumably, used with the express purpose of hurling a racial slight. I wouldn’t have known that had you not mentioned it.

The burden of proof…for someone who says he takes this stuff lightly, or none too seriously, you have now entered the arena of litigation.

Do you know what diversionery tactic is, Rob? This could be a conversation, truly. It will not be for reasons of there being wax in your ears.

Unwilling to listen, or learn, or know, or respect the stereotypical implications of the gender-based slight? Really.

You DO NOT represent Asian men for me. I hear you, and I respect that you were injured THERE, in THAT WAY. Can one not even ask you a question without your ‘overreaction’ taking you THERE?

Did I dismiss your examples? By removing myself from the group of people who would jump on a (white) woman who sought to reach across the great divide, and was attacked, unjustly (in my opinion) because the group went wild? Does that removal of self not concur with your own need to listen carefully, and not ‘jump the gun’ (your words)?

Do you really not remember posting that Asian women had made uncharitable remarks to you regarding Asian men vs. White men, and that is why you take disfavor with the plethora of White Male/Female Asian pairings?

Do you really not remember posting that if the Asian community took Rosie to task the way the Black community did (went to get up in arms, and start rioting or burning, or something) that maybe the Asian community would be taken more seriously? Do you not remember more than just myself wondering why you went to the most-violent-racist trope as example of the way to get voice and visibility with whites?

Do you really not remember failing to include NON-Asians in your post on the second thread about the commentaries for James Kim? (Intent, intent). I even posted that your candor in the thread was appreciated, after (erroneously) having my tag, herpeapod, used in that thread, wherein you had posted up-thread to herpeapod that you had had some indelible, long-term hurt imposed on you from your youth?

Notice how many times I have sought to talk , even here, with you reasonably (after the barbs) and you seek to use belittling remarks, openly dismissive remarks, and gender (!) dismissive remarks (babbling) to walk away from coming close?

This could be a bridge, my friend. This could be a conversation. You could be more than, ‘my Asian friend, Jimmy,’ (perhaps you are too young to remember that one- a PSA from the late ’70’s; or maybe a Church of Latter Day Saints call to peace and worship…anyone?).

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 4:39 pm ¶
kim wrote:

Correction and improvements (made within the parentheticals):

…Does that removal of self not concur with your own (expressed need for people )to listen carefully, and not ‘jump the gun’ ([MY] words)?

Do you really not remember posting that Asian women had made uncharitable remarks to you regarding (dating ) Asian men vs. White men, and that is why you take disfavor with the plethora of White Male/Female Asian pairings?

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 4:46 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

Without either proof, logic or scientific facts the latest articles (one of many coming down the pike) of successful middle and upper class blacks who are angry and concerned and can’t figure out why other groups test scores are going up why ours either not that much or going down are writing books and newspaper articles with no facts only their own observations either by…

a. Rap Videos and popular culture shows

b. Loud Black people

c. Crime blotter sheets

Every book starting with Mc Worther’s book self- sabotage as he said in it’s opening is based on ‘anedotal evidence nothing scientific and it has follwed a familiar script of seeing loud blacks or black kids not being ‘ambitious’ enough like themselves. It’s an arrogance that would be funny if it wasn’t so dangerous. When you present evidence to the contrary these same people (esp. Black Folks) go apeshit because it conflicts with their own ideals or attitudes. It’s like the Magificent Randy when he would refute ghosts or other phemonea they would be offended and blame Randy for not believing. I showed some ‘concerned’ black person a study that refuted the ‘act white’ theory, they were so angry at me saying that ‘these n&*^ don’t know shit!!!! When I told them them that these people did this study over a 3-5 year period it was too much for them. Needless to say the ‘white media’ put the article in page 12 and the hype continues with more personal anedotes.

It would be funny if it’s not so dangerous, I am too the point where the best and honest stats I am getting on articles on what’s truly going with poor blacks on are in magazines and writers like Counterpunch, In these times and foriegn newspapers because too any american intellectual think- tanks or newspapers are looking for ‘fair and balanced and are political not seeking the truth but a cathartic release because these articles (coming from a place of “tough love and racial shame) are not solving any problems but isolating poor black citizens into a mode of the enemy within. I don’t think this is good for our country.

But Rob the asian “Woody Allen” and the rest of you, If you read about a majority black school whether private or public, needs toilet paper or plumbing fixed, I hope the people on this board do at least find a plumbing company or fix used computers or assist charter schools by either stuffing envelopes with your money or brawn. that, because I think we are in an age where there is little sympathy as to whether blacks make it or not.

You know who gave Bush his balance for re-election, Inner- City blacks going to charter schools lead by white evangelicals who have been involved in those neighborhoods rolling their sleeves and doing the work.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 4:54 pm ¶
kim wrote:

THAT was definitely racially based (x 2).

Whether or not it was (entirely) insulting depends on one’s admiration towards Allen’s work.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 5:47 pm ¶
she-ra wrote:

I SEE MANY PEOPLE COMMENTING THAT WE NEED TO CHANGE THE THINKING OF THE KIDS. KIDS DO NOT RAISE THEMSELVES. YOU MUST ENCOURAGE INNER CITY GOVERNMENTS AS WELL AS OUR U. S. GOVERNMENT TO MAKE SURE MAMA AND DADDY ARE MAKING ENOUGH MONEY TO TAKE CARE OF EVERYTHING AT HOME. SO THERE ATTENTION IS ON THE CHILDREN AND NOT ON WHAT BILL MAY NOT BE
GETTING PAID. WE SUPPORT RAPPERS
& SINGERS INSTEAD OF THE OPRAH’S AND BILL COSBY’S, THE CONDELESA RICE’S
WHO HAVE MADE IT BECAUSE THEY
WORKED TO GET WHERE THEY ARE. DESPITE SEGREGATION AND IN YOUR FACE RACISM. WHICH WE DO NOT SUFFER.
WE HAVE TO WORK LIFE IS WORK EVERY PART OF IT IS WORK. WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME AND THAT IS THE ONLY PART OF THE WHOLE THING THAT BOTHERS ME OPRAH COULD HAVE SINGLED OUT THE ONES WHO WANT TO LEARN FROM THE ONES WHO DO NOT. YOU CANT FORCE THEM TO SEE. BUT WHO DO WE BLAME, HOW MUCH HAS EACH ONE OF US DONE, DESPITE THE MONEY TO HELP THE CHILDREN. AS BLACK AMERICANS WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT GOING TO CHURCH AND BLASTING BEBE AND CECE ON THE RADIO WHERE IS GOD IN ALL THIS .
HE SAYS IN HIS WORD “IF MY PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME WOULD ONLY HUMBLE THEMSELVES I WILL HEAL THERE LAND.” HE SAW OUR ANCESTORS THROUGH TIMES THAT WE HAVE ONLY EXPERIENCED ON TV OR IN HISTORY BOOKS. HE HAS SEEN EACH OF YOU TO BE EDUCATED BECAUSE SOME ONE PRAYED FOR YOU PRAY FOR OPRAH THAT GOD WILL CHANGE HER HEART AND MIND INSTEAD OF CRUCIFYING HER. BECAUSE HE SEES WHAT WE DO TOO. I WAS NOT RAISED IN THE INNER CITY I WAS RAISED IN MAINLY WHITE SCHOOLS AND I WORKED DESPITE WHAT WE KNOW TO BE THE TRUTH OF RACISM THEY CAN HATE YOU SKIN THEY CAN EVEN HATE YOU BUT IF YOU LOVE YOURSELF YOU EDUCATE YOURSELF. TEACH ONE TO LOVE ONE. IT STARTS WITH YOU.
TOMORROW, AND FROM THIS DAY ONE DECIDE FOR YOURSELF TO REACH OUT TO SOMEONE THAT YOU MAY HAVE JUDGED JUST THE SAME AS OPRAH.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 6:08 pm ¶
David Greenwood wrote:

I hope Oprah reads this. About 2 years ago a group of high school students at St. Martin de Porres wrote Oprah, crying out to her and Bill Cosby to help save their school from closing. The Archdiocese of Detroit closed all of the private schools in the city of Detroit which eliminated an educational choice for inner city kids. These inner city kids weren’t asking for i-pods or gym shoes. They wanted to keep their school open because of its’ educational value and moral teachings. This school provided a family like environment for some kids that didn’t have that type of love at home. I have run into more than 30 former students/parents of the now closed school and not one has said that the school that they wound up attending after the closing was better than DePorres. Everyone wishes that the school was still open. We had a graduation rate of 95% and 90% of those who graduated went on to attend a 4 year college or university. We never heard from Oprah or Dr. Cosby. Sad but true.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 6:27 pm ¶
Sewere wrote:

David Greenwood, What’s your favorite drink so that I can buy you a year’s supply?

I mean what about the number of kids from the Berkeley and Oakland who stop me in front of the grocery store and Walgreens asking me if I can buy a subscription to a magazine company who in turn promised to donate money to help them get textbooks for the year?

Oprah, in the unlikely event that you read this I hope you see why we have a problem with what you said.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 8:34 pm ¶
Being Mama Daily wrote:

i was going to comment, i swear. and it was going to be really deep and profound and possibly incendiary, but then I read kim’s first comment (i couldn’t even read further to see if she made another) and what I was going to said was already covered. so there.

man,i need one of those “EASY” buttons.

Posted 05 Jan 2007 at 11:53 pm ¶
kim wrote:

Being Mama!

I love, love, love your site. I am going to find a moment, get my courage together , and submit.

Sooo good to see you here (though this got really ugly, i’m really very sweet).

-K

Posted 06 Jan 2007 at 1:28 am ¶
Being Mama Daily wrote:

LOL @ needing courage, girl please!

Thank you for the kind words. I’m just glad they let me come back out to play.

I love THIS site. You all are having some profound chit chat in this neck of the woods. If it’s okay, I think I’ll hang out some.

Posted 06 Jan 2007 at 2:25 am ¶
fgs_sfdg wrote:

“But I think you dropped the ball on attentiveness at this point, and held that his interpretation of my ‘rancor’ statement was laden with Asian-stereotype jabs.”

sigh. I can’t seem to turn away from this page.

Kim,

Your writing has become increasingly ostentatious after each post. I suppose you meant that I dropped the ball on attentiveness when I interpretated your statements as being laden with stereotypical jabs. What you wrote had a completely different meaning. Anyway, read my reply to the next quote.

“I think that once Rob got angry, and THEN I started in on him, taking the easy road to anyone with such a short fuse (as in temper only this time), it was easy to pick. As a woman might with ANY man.”

Was the jab obvious to you because you saw Rob as just another insecure man, or was it obvious because he is an AM who has constantly complained about poor images of asian male sexuality. You knew that AM stereotypes bothered him; thus you also knew the effect that the jokes would have on him. There is no doubt in mind that you knew this; to think otherwise would to assume you’re dense, which obviously you’re not.

And remember. You made the joke twice.

Rob gave an explanation, in which he claimed that the weight of certain insults varied according to the race of the person who is insulted. The word “stupid” having greater weight when it is directed at blacks was a bad example (sorry, Rob).

Imagine a black person who came to this blog a while back and lingered over media portrayls of blacks as being thick and brutish while at the same time offending many Asians. Would I be right in calling him a “baboon” or a “monkey,” knowing how he would construe such an insult? I could explain myself afterwards by stating that I’ve called many dumb and offensive people baboons. And he was no different. And plus, I can insult someone without relying on racial stereotypes.

The race of the person certainly matters, and in the case of my example and that involving you and Rob, history does too.

Kudos on the “short fuse” explanation. I was worried there for a second.

“And, by the way, anything I said to him tonight was said to HIM, not to ‘Asian men.”

Lol. Where have I heard lines to that effect before?

You used a very selective insult in this case. Your INTENT doesn’t matter, as you’re smart enough to figure out ahead of time the consequences of your comments and probably even the frustrating ambiguity resulting from your comments, which makes them all the more effective. Did she really just throw a racial stereotype ? How do I know for sure?

You’ve explained why you attacked Rob for what I thought, and still think, was a harmless post. You’ve held a grudge for something he may or may not have done in the past. But don’t think that you’re not at fault here.

Posted 06 Jan 2007 at 3:50 am ¶
fgs_sfdg wrote:

Wait! What the hell? Did Oprah really say that?

Posted 06 Jan 2007 at 3:59 am ¶
eric daniels wrote:

Oprah’s so far removed from reality that to she proably didn’t think she was saying anything wrong. In her and Cosby’s world they are “inspiring” Poor Black Children to stop

a. blaming the man

b. don’t be so materalistic (from the one who whined on her show because she couldn’t get in when it closed ) for her ‘gift’ to diana ross
c. Stop listening to ‘rap’ music and culture

d. Be true to your ’school’ however decrepit it is .

To be an out of touch black liberal must really be rally cool. I love seeing folks who are playing armchair “socialogists” who are only applying their anedotal ideals and expertise about Inner City Blacks who love Ipods and sneakers and rap music . and hate education and knowledge.

Hey Oprah and Bill, I will tell that to the brothas in my college who are majoring in buisness and releasing independent Rap cds in tampa on their own label in between taking classes who have been teaching me about the ins and outs of relaesing your own music .And that ‘hoochie mama sista who is majoring in pre- law writing a ghetto- lit book and has taught me about publishing my own book and at 40 has inpired me to write and publish my own book about Nu Wave R&B music of the 1980’s.

Yeah those black inner-city kids have no ambition, They just want Ipods and sneakers. Yeah that is really our ‘dirty laundry’.

Posted 06 Jan 2007 at 4:59 am ¶
merq wrote:

fgs_sfdg:

1. Kudos for the calm manner in which you handled that little tiff between Rob and Kim. You’re a better man than I.

2. I looked back at that CNN post, and damn-near choked on my liquid courage when I read the explanation you offered for your name. Nice one.

3. Yeah, Oprah really did say that. Heh.

4. Yeah, Rob really did say some of the things Kim mentioned… the one that comes to mind went a little like (paraphrasing):
“That’s the problem with Asians– they’re not afraid to offend us. If they expected a violent response from us, as is the case with blacks, they wouldn’t be so quick to insult us.”

Posted 06 Jan 2007 at 11:40 am ¶
merq wrote:

sorry, that should have gone,

“That’s the problem with US Asians, and why nobody’s afraid to offend us. If they expected a violent response from us, as is the case with blacks, they wouldn’t be so quick to insult us.”

Posted 06 Jan 2007 at 11:42 am ¶
Delila wrote:

Our kids have too many THINGS and our community values the WRONG things. The Black community has work to do. BUT PLEASAE stop speaking death into our children. Start speaking LIFE into them. Urban school children are smart, they can learn, and they want more out of life than material things. Please start speaking LIFE into Black kids.

P.S. I love Oprah and she has a right to say what she feels.

Posted 06 Jan 2007 at 2:05 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:

Delia there is no ‘black community’ and hasn’t been one since the 1970’s. What there is now is poor ghetto black neighborhoods that are not economically and socially efficent. How can middle and upper class blacks save a neighborhood they are not part of anymore.

Older Black people like middle and upper class black folks are scared of the inner city black poor like the rest of scoiety and are now admitting it,especially young black people who in their minds are underachieving, violent, thin-skinned etc. This is not the 1960’s anymore where we were all in the same boat regardless of class. Where Cosby and Winfrey anger rises is unlike other ethnic groups, th