Racism abounds following Rosie

by guest contributor Jenn Fang, originally published at Reappropriate

When I first saw the video of Rosie O’Donnell unleashing a long string of guttural “chings” and “chongs” on The View last week, I was upset and offended, but thought it was another in a long line of racial celebrity gaffes that would no doubt engender some outrage and inevitable apology. The pedestrian racism of using “ching” and “chong” to symbolize Chinese language and culture was so utterly obvious to me that I dismissed any need to respond with outrage. The public outcry would be immediate and swift, I was sure. The apology would, no doubt, strike the chords we are so familiar with and I projected that by today, the whole shitstorm would’ve died.

Boy, was I naive. And, boy, was I wrong.

This story really started hitting home not with Rosie’s “ching-chong”-ery, but by the response. On the Internet, readers started rushing to Rosie’s defense. Hundreds of readers around the blogosphere weighed in, incapable of or unwilling to equate Rosie’s joke with racism.

Comments on the story have taken several classic, yet undeniably ignorant, turns.

1. Rosie Didn’t Mean To Be Racist.

There are those who take pains to explain Rosie’s joke to the Asian American community, refuting racism with arguments of intent. One reader at Gawker wrote:

Rosie wasn’t necessarily mocking the Chinese. It is all about intent. The friggin point wasn’t “Chinese people sound funny” it was “they’re talking about the View in China, this is what I imagine it sounds like.” Get a grip, people.

This is Rosie O’Donnell’s own stance. On her blog, Rosie repeats (ad nauseum) that her intent was not to offend, but to mock Danny DeVito being drunk as news elsewhere in the world. She writes in resonse to one reader,

it was not my intent to mock
just to say how odd it is
that danny drunk
was news all over the world
even in china

it was not meant to mock

These types of responses emphasize the majority-centric view that most people have towards racism. When intent reigns supreme, then the problem with racism is not about the victim of the racist action, but the perpetrator and their intent. This outlook on racism only benefits the oppressor, who no longer has to consider the victims of his oppression. Not surprisingly, it is the same people who belong to the majority who perpetuate this self-interested treatment of racism.

Was it Rosie’s intention to mock the ridiculousness of Chinese newscasters getting all a-twitter about Danny DeVito on The View? Possibly, but what Rosie actually made a joke about was how Chinese language sounds to English audiences. And, as a Chinese American, Rosie’s use of “ching-chong”-ery to refer to my language and heritage struck home; why should my resulting racial pain play second fiddle to Rosie’s intent? This is just another form of blaming the victim.

2. If It Were (X), They Wouldn’t Be Mad…

Many of the Rosie defenders argue the hypothetical that if Rosie O’Donnell had cited German or French or Italian newscasters, no one would argue that it was racism. A reader at Defamer asked,

If she’d imitated the Italian language, would anyone have cared?

Another reader at the Gothamist wrote:

if rosie had done it using a “zany” french or british accent, no one would have cried racism. why is it only racist if you imitate a chinese person, yet not someone from, say, germany?

i honestly have been wondering this for years. can someone please enlighten me?

These statements are often delivered in the form of a complaint; they argue that White people are at a disadvantage because they cannot claim racism when their ethnicity is mocked.

The problem with this argument is that neither French, nor British, nor German people are considered non-White minorities in America. Racism does not occur in a bubble, but exists as an ongoing history of racism in America. When Michael Richards made his “fork up the ass” joke at the Laugh Factory, the racism was not that Richards actually wanted to find a Black person and stick a fork up his ass, but because this paralleled a racist American history that included numerous instances of popularized lynchings. The fork metaphor (i.e., equating a Black person with a food item) futher referenced the characterization of lynchings as Bar-B-Q’s.

Similarly, Rosie O’Donnell’s use of “ching-chong”-ery occurred amidst a history of oppression against Asian Americans and Chinese Americans in this country, which had already included use of “ching chong” as a form of degrading and dehumanizing Chinese people. Had Rosie targeted countries of predominantly White people, there probably would not have been a backlash involving racism.

But Rosie chose to demean Chinese people. We, and other members of the Asian American community, have long been targets of discrimination based on race that include mistreatment and xenophobia towards Asian culture and heritage. Therefore, the use of the hypothetical is misleading, and once again, its use changes the subject from racism against Chinese people to perceived mistreatment of Whites.

3. “Ching Chong” is a Bad Accent of an Otherwise Accurate Representation of Chinese

On one forum (and in this blog), the issue arose as to whether “ching” and “chong” actually exist in any dialect of Chinese. Over at the Gothamist, a reader wrote,

But to most people, that is exactly what they make of the Chinese language when they hear it. She just thought out loud.

At TV Squad, another reader wrote:

But, here’s the deal, [Rosie] doesn’t speak Chinese - she made a phonic representation as to how she hears the language. We as human animals do this. We mimic the sounds we hear every day. I’m sure if she wanted to take the time to learn the language she could harness those sounds she made and attach them to actual Chinese words

On her blog, Rosie continues to refer to her joke as a bad “accent”. Again, her joke would only be based upon poor accent imitation if she were speaking true Chinese, albeit badly.

Chinese is a tonal as well as phonetic language. In all dialects (including Mandarin, the dialect I speak), words consist of both a phonetic component and a tonal component. Each phonetic sound may be pronounced with four or five different tones, each of which is associated with multiple words (based on context). Moreover, most meanings in Chinese are derived from two or more words — “ching” alone is meaningless without other words surrounding it. For example, depending on how I inflected “ching”, I could be saying “please” or, in association with another sound, I could be saying, “stringed instrument”.

Chinese is an extremely complicated language, and one that isn’t structured at all like the Germanic languages (including English). Therefore, though “ching” and “chong” are phonetic sounds that might be made when speaking Chinese, they are not actual Chinese words because the tonal components are missing. Therefore, any reference to “ching” and “chong” as accurate but poorly executed Chinese is misleading.

4. “Ching Chong” Is Funny

Many readers are defending Rosie simply because they think mocking Chinese (and other non-English languages) is hilarious. One reader at TMZ wrote:

Actually, Rosie’s comment was pretty funny. I’ll be if the headlines were printed in somewhere in Africa they would phonetically say:

Abulla booga moogie wa-linga Danny DeVito!

I really don’t think I need to respond to why this type of comment is ignorant.

5. “Get Over It”

Many comments that I’ve read have cited racial minorities as hyper-sensitive. According to them, we are too quick to cry racism, and unwilling to “forgive” the racists when they try to apologize. At TMZ, one reader wrote:

im so sick and tired of everyone being offended. I remember a day when nobody gave a damn. Now you cant sneeze without someone claiming they are offended. Get over it already! call me a craker… i dont care. call me a honkey i dont care.

Another wrote:

F*** ‘em if they can’t take a joke. Jeez. All this racial bullsh*t. Nobody really, truly, gives a sh*t.

Again, this is self-interest of the majority/oppressor talking. For those who experience White privilege, it is hard to grasp what racial pain can mean — they feel it is similar to being called names in a schoolyard, and should be easy to shrug off.

Furthermore, White Privilege in America has come to include being racist against others without being challenged. It’s upsetting to watch those who have White Privilege try to defend their “right” to be racist towards another person. While freedom of speech is grand, it’s hard to imagine why Whites feel justified in being so quick to demand that they be allowed to oppress other minority groups. The question must be asked: why do you feel like you need to be racist?

6. Now’s My Chance To Hate on Asians, Too…

By far, the most disturbing responses that I’ve seen have been the repeated interjections by racists, who now feel a free pass to perpetuate all sorts of harmful and hateful Asian stereotypes, now that the floodgates have been opened by Rosie and her “ching-chong”-ery. Over at Gawker, the first article to post about the Rosie O’Donnell “ching-chong” scandal used the stereotypical r/l mockery of Asian accents in their headline; it included the phrase “I No Solly”. It was also the editors of Gawker who added the gong sound in the YouTube clip circulating the blogsphere — the same gong sound that prominent Asian American activists are misattributing to The View producers.

Meanwhile, at Defamer, a reference is made to dragon-embroidered silk knots. The Gothamist’s headline includes the phrase “Ni Hao Ma” — a phrase again usually used by non-Chinese speakers without tonal inflection and intended to mimic the Mandarin phrase “How are you?”, but frequently, it is used much in the same way as “ching chong”.

The comments are much worse. At TMZ, one reader wrote:

that is some funny stuff from rosie-

i love how people go insane if there is anything “upsettting” written or said about asians.

the fact of the matter is that they are pushy and expect everything and everyone to wipe their asses for them.

get over it!!!

It’s as if people were just sitting on a bunch of anti-Asian jokes, and now that they thinnk they can ride the coattails of Rosie’s racism, they’re having a private competition to see who can make the most hateful anti-Asian joke of the lot.

It is these forms of reactions that illustrate exactly how deep a problem racism is in this country. It only takes a small joke to unleash a flurry of hateful racist tirades and caricatures, all intended to demean and belittle racial minorities — these comments came from the same racism that denies minorities proper representation in Hollywood, prevents us from ascending the ranks in employment, and fuels hate crime violence.

To me, the racism in Rosie’s original “ching chong” joke was not in the fact that it is a schoolyard taunt (although it is), but because the use of “ching chong” to characterize Chinese is akin to dehumanizing the Chinese culture. A complex language is redefined as a series of animalistic grunts — it is xenophobic and hateful because it suggests that non-English languages and cultures are simple, barbaric, and uncivilized.

The “ching chong” joke dates back over a century to mockery of so-called pidgin English. One ragtime song illustrates the popular use of the phrase “ching chong” as a slur and dehumanization of Asian men:

“Ching, Chong, Oh Mister Ching Chong,
You are the king of Chinatown.
Ching Chong, I love your sing-song,
When you have turned the lights all down;
Ching Chong, just let me swing long,
Through the realms of Drowsy Land;
Dreaming while stars are beaming,
Oh Mister Ching Chong, sing-song man.”

When you’re in Frisco Town don’t fail to drop around
And see this Ching Chong man.
Wonderful things you’ll learn down where the torches burn,
He’ll show you all he can.
Then when the time is ripe he’ll fill your little pipe
And then a light he’ll bring.
Gently you’ll float away far out on Slumber Bay,
And softly you will sing:

“Ching Chong, Oh Mister Ching Chong,
You are the king of Chinatown.
Ching Chong, I love your sing-song,
When you have turned the lights all down;
Ching Chong, just let me swing long,
Through the realms of Drowsy Land;
Dreaming while stars are beaming,
Oh Mister Ching Chong, sing-song man.”

To me, the racism is obvious. The need for an apology is also obvious — not to sweep this incident under the rug, but so that Rosie can acknowledge her racial affront towards the Asian American community.

But, Rosie’s racism is conveniently over-shadowed by the racist treatment of this story in the news media. The story is either being ignored by major news outlets, or adopts its own air of mockery towards Asian American culture.

Surprisingly, the one response that seems to get it pretty close to right is Michelle Malkin’s “Vent” video. You’d almost think that Michelle Malkin actually has racial solidarity with Asian Americans!

Trackbacks & Pings

  1. An idiots guide to being a mattmoo. » Blog Archive » Big Bother erm i mean Big Brother on 16 Jan 2007 at 6:29 pm

    […] Firstly, immediatly on my mind is Big Brother, its been all over the tabloids today about the “Racism” and “Bullying” within Big Brother and although i do agree there has been some definate bullying i am not to sure about the racism. My question would be, is imitating someone’s accent racism? Jen writes a post on the subject here, although i think her point is more about using certain terms in a mocking sense, where as i am talking about imitating how someone speaks. […]

  2. New Breed of Racist Felines « Land of the Not-So-Calm on 27 Nov 2007 at 11:07 pm

    […] come on, “me no rike remonade”? It’s like Rosie O’Donnell’s racist “ching-chong” slur, but with a cute kitty thrown in to make it seem harmless and funny. The so-called […]

  3. New Breed of Racist Felines « Uncomposed Thoughts on 20 Mar 2008 at 2:34 pm

    […] come on, “me no rike remonade”? It’s like Rosie O’Donnell’s racist “ching-chong” slur, but with a cute k1tty thrown in to make it seem harmless and funny. The so-called […]

Comments

  1. mel wrote:

    Thank you for this post, Jenn. I agree about Rosie’s flippant “non-apology.” That was the biggest joke, by far.

    I just saw Michelle Malkin on YouTube. Totally surprising!

  2. fgs_sfdg wrote:

    I think I saw the Malkin video you’re referring to also, unless she made more than one video concerning the incident. It’s not surprising to me. For Malkin, it’s just an excuse to attack a liberal. She doesn’t give an damn about the Asian community.

  3. Donovon wrote:

    WOW, I have learned so much from this racial episode!!!

    On a lighter note, as offensive as that Ching chong song is, I would really like to get my hands on some opium.

    And as ignorent as it is, If Rosie had said, ” Even in Zimbabwe - mook mook thid thid walla walla Danny Devito, mook mook” I would have fallen off the couch laughing. It’s totally racist, or xenophobic, but is it not funny too?

    Bear in mind however, I am not Asian. So, I mean, i totally thought that ching chong thing was racist, but it was kinda funny. But I have never been teased in that way before. If she had done a mammy impression, then i think i would have had more of a problem.

    This would interested to examine, the degree to which something is percieved offensive due to your ethnic background, or SES, or some other factor.

  4. fgs_sfdg wrote:

    Jeez. Forgetting the fact that it was offensive for a second. How the HELL can an ADULT find that funny? It’s a schoolyard taunt.

  5. SocKrit2Em wrote:

    Asian is the only thing I’m not, but I could cry at how cavalier everyone seems about the resonance of this incident with every other recent “cele-bratty” racial tirade.

    The larger context, for a moment, is that currently we USAmericans are embattled on every front. During times of war, historically speaking, white America closes ranks. Internment, torture, mistrust and fear. None of these things are new, but shouldn’t we take this opportunity to do something different? To look at our society and how growing US isolationism is not only fomenting hatred of our country by the rest of the world, but also revealing our unreconstructed deployments of difference here in the “land of the free”?

    As cynical as many of us are about our transnational role as a model for an actually, existing multi-cultural democracy these incidents speak volumes to the rest of the world: That is, peace and productive inter-ethnic exchange are impossible, just look at the U.S.

    Just look at “US” for a moment and think about whether this is a laughing matter, or a really significant indicator of how much work we still have to do to educate ourselves. The one good thing about this incident is that it raises anti-Asian sentiment to the level of national conscious discourse at this important moment. Red alert! We should really look at how the war on terror has somehow been translated into a war on difference, and a license to hate. And one last strategically optimistic spin on it, perhaps racist people will get so sick of hearing about racism that they’ll stop it!

    (Probably not. But we can hope and mobilize!)

  6. Anonymous Coward wrote:

    fgs_sfdg,
    ha, so true. are we really that starved for comedy that this is prime material? Perhaps for her encore she could resort to a your mama joke or a hip airport boarding procedure joke.

    Concerning the View and the people who watch Rosie, reminds me of the same level of sophistication in people who find the video of the monkey drinking his own piss entertaining. I might find that actually more entertaining.

    As for the whole phonetic representation thing… i gotta ask… “We as human animals do this. We mimic the sounds we hear every day.” uhhhh, we do? Even to an animal as low as a dog on the ladder of sophisticated thinking, i still talk to it in the English language. I don’t fall to my knees and start barking like a dog in order to mimic it’s communication method. Though i confess, if there is any mimicking going on with my dog… i sometimes use a high-pitched feminine voice or a new daddy talking to their baby voice… guilty *ashamed*.

    And for those that are “sick and tired of people always being offended, get over it”, i would please ask you to read what you just wrote. You kinda come off as someone who’s been offended, why else would you be sick and tired? Might I suggest you just get over it? I remember a day when nobody gave a damn enough not even to write into a forum about how little they give a damn. Now that was apathy! Ahhh the good old days.

    Oh, and one more point. It’s not a schoolyard taunt. It doesn’t stop when you leave the playground, when you graduate from middle school, high school, even post-graduate courses. Don’t believe me? Ask an Asian or go to Ktown and observe (don’t do it if you’re white). This is not some inner-childhood pain. Adult Asians are privy to hearing this for a good long time.

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  8. fgs_sfdg wrote:

    I know it’s not exclusive to children. Just commenting on the level of immaturity and unoriginality of the joke, but yeah, I see your point. It’s not something people grow out of. Same with the “me so solly,” and pulling back the eyes.

    Ugh, there’s so many things wrong with Rosie’s apology segment that annoys the hell of me.

    The most frustrating part would probably be her mentioning that some Asians equated the joke with calling a black person the n-word.” Audience groans, puts on “serious” face, feighns shock. Awww, now the Asian community has gone too far!

  9. Anonymous Coward wrote:

    fgs_sfdg,

    Sorry, that part wasn’t directed at you I was talking to the article.

    I agree with your frustration at the audience participation. Yeah, the audience tend to be a stupid beast when it comes to hero worship. I can just see the white suburban mother groaning as she’s saying to herself “well ching-chong isn’t offensive to me!”. Those wacky Asians, always trying to ride the black man’s glory.

    There was something about Rosie’s scrunching of the face, the uplift of the eyebrow, the deep furrowed brow of incredulousness. It was brilliant caricature of a real human showing actual emotions. I applaud Rosie for her physical comedy. You couldn’t have possibly cued the audience to react appropriately had you planned it.

    The part that annoys me the most was when that one said “comedians run into this all the time”. Like it’s some tragic hardship and we should be sympathetic because some Asian fool want to destroy their precious craft. Look, you’re not a hero. Stop pretending that when you get caught for shooting your mouth off, that somehow it was intended to show our freedoms under the first amendment and our sanctity or our bill of rights. You people seriously flatter yourself for no good reason. You aren’t the Thomas Jefferson / Thomas Paine of the modern world. You’re a lousy comedian, at best. Leave the defending of intellectual freedom to those that have an actual purpose in what they state.

  10. Lori wrote:

    I am a caucasion mom of four children adopted from China. I found it offensive. I found it ironic that Rosie, who is so quick to condemn those she feel make negative statements against gays and lesbians, doesn’t feel like she did anything worthy of an apology. And what was it she said about Mel Gibson? Kelly Ripa? Hmmm, Rosie?

  11. Kaywil wrote:

    They seemed to use the same joke in the ‘Cars’ movie when Lightening McQueen went missing. Maybe she was watching that with her kids from the day before and had a lapse of judgment. Just because there are references in pop culture of discrimination/bias/racism as normal (blacks playing criminals, Asians playing kung-fu masters) doesn’t mean that it’s appropriate to replicate. It just validates bad behavior and racial bias.

  12. Maggie wrote:

    That was the maybe the stupidest part of the whole thing — she gets mad at Ripa for saying she doesn’t know where Aiken’s hand has been, *that’s* somehow homophobic. But “ching chong”? What, that’s not racist! Barf.

  13. static flow wrote:

    I agree that a lot of the defenses being offered don’t hold water, but I didn’t see anything in her speech that implied to me that people of what we in the US think of as the Asian race are lessor than the people of her race, and thus not racism.

    As it was was not, we have to look at her right to imitate the speech patterns of a language of which she has less than zero understanding…she is so ignorant she shouldn’t have tried, but let’s consider making fun of the sound of language as separate from acting as if a person is lesser than you because they have genetic background that belongs to a different group than yours.

    I find it most interesting that you point out the that the ignorant “comedian” is making fun of the tonal aspects of the variety of Chinese spoken languages, whilst having no idea what she is doing. I have heard Mandarin speakers make fun of Cantonese/Yue speakers for the additional tones and the accent associated with their language. I don’t think that was racism either. It was just a use of a difference between people to establish tribal boundaries and then claim the superiority of their tribe. Of course, other East Asians, such as Japanese and Koreans, express even deeper tribal divisions and have been more demonstrative to me in making light of the unusual tonal aspects of the Chinese spoken languages. That to me has more elements of “racism” than Rosie’s joke.

    I am not seriously offended by what Rosie did, only embarrassed for our lame country. She is obviously not an intelligent or culturally curious person, and she demonstrated that she doesn’t even know how dumb she is. She shouldn’t be allowed on television- any one who would say something so stupid shouldn’t. But that is the fault of the far greater number of fools that watch her insipid little show.

    On the other hand, this sort of thing (intentionally bad language/accent imitation) is done regularly on “The Daily Show with Jon Stewart”- but in the meta way of making fun of the idiocy of the news shows (and audiences of the news shows) that they are satirizing. Yet, the same racist jerks that would laugh at Rosie’s “joke” could laugh at that, for ostensibly the wrong reasons. One could say much the same applies to Borat/Ali G, using the same techniques as the Daily Show, although far more skillfully, to skewer the people’s lack of awareness of other cultures.

    I guess people could pick a lot of holes in your arguments, but that’s not really the point here. I’m joining the campaign to get her off the air. She’s not funny, she’s way too dumb, and her audience needs to find something better to do…although that hopefully has nothing to do with the pure evil that is Malkin.

  14. Y. Carrington wrote:

    I find it most interesting that you point out the that the ignorant “comedian” is making fun of the tonal aspects of the variety of Chinese spoken languages, whilst having no idea what she is doing. I have heard Mandarin speakers make fun of Cantonese/Yue speakers for the additional tones and the accent associated with their language. I don’t think that was racism either. It was just a use of a difference between people to establish tribal boundaries and then claim the superiority of their tribe. Of course, other East Asians, such as Japanese and Koreans, express even deeper tribal divisions and have been more demonstrative to me in making light of the unusual tonal aspects of the Chinese spoken languages. That to me has more elements of “racism” than Rosie’s joke.

    Static Flow—here’s the difference. Mandarin and Yue speakers are of the same racial background, and they live in the same territory. As for the other East Asian nationalities you mention, they have long histories of ethnic and political strife, strife which in the last couple of centuries has been externally aggravated by Western cultural and economic domination.

    By contrast, O’Donnell is a white woman in a white supremacist country mocking Asian people, in an industry (”entertainment” media) with a long, sordid history of stereotyping Asian people. Jenn made this difference painstakingly clear above, at least to my eyes. Take her words for what they are.

  15. Anonymous Coward wrote:

    Static Flow,
    Wait, you didn’t see anything in her speech that implied that she thinks of the Asian race as lessor than her own? The outright refusal to apologize, having her publicist reprimand Asians for being incapable of grasping her comedy, equating us to children and implying that our concerns are petty, her constant incredulous facial expressions and the overall mocking tone of her non-apology … if none of that convinces you that she thinks a bit lesser of Asian Americans, you’re ability to pick up on implications seems a bit dulled. I’m curious how tenable implications have to be in order for you to determine that it IS racism. But fair enough, you’ve determined (somehow) that she is not a racist because nothing has struck you as racist. I’ll follow that train of thought.

    Now you want to examine the “right” of Rosie to imitate the speech pattern of a language she is unfamiliar with. I have no clue what you’re talking about, especially this line:

    “let’s consider making fun of the sound of language as separate from acting as if a person is lesser than you because they have genetic background that belongs to a different group than yours.”

    You want to examine the making light of how people speak yet separate it from any connotation that the individual is lesser? How exactly is that done? That essentially IS the issue here. If that’s the way you want to examine this issue, then technically you are avoiding the real issue.

    You then turn to this very weak anecdotal evidence of witnessing Asians make light of another Asian’s language, and somehow this becomes the defense of Rosie’s comments? This type of reasoning leads right to Godwin’s Law. I’m not even sure why you bring this up, does this have ANYTHING to do with Rosie and what she said? It has a hint of the “my defense is that I can give examples of people who do worse than me” line of flawed argument, but that’s not a defense of Rosie — that’s a condemnation of somebody entirely different, people who don’t even pertain to this Rosie controversy. Sorry, but this is not a defense that Rosie wasn’t being racist. If you’re going to make that kind of comparative argument, you might as well evoke Hitler and say Rosie’s comment wasn’t racist because Hitler was worse and Rosie isn’t as bad as Hitler.

    You then say:
    “That to me has more elements of “racism” than Rosie’s joke.”

    But saying that it has “more”, implies that Rosie’s joke had an element of racism in it. Prior you had just determined that you didn’t see anything in her speech that implied racism.

    My question is why are you campaigning to get her off the air? Even the Asians that were offended haven’t asked for that, just an apology. And if your reasons for getting her off the air is because she’s unfunny, dumb, and her audience are idiots… I find that a dumber reason to get her kicked off television than the racially offensive comment that she made. At least the comment has greater substantiality.

  16. static flow wrote:

    YCarrington-

    I think you agree with my point that making fun of an accent or the sound of a language isn’t necessarily racism. It’s pretty easy for most people to separate that from making fun of the person who speaks that language. For example, a person whose family moved from Europe to Hong Kong a couple of generations ago could be a fluent Cantonese speaker. Language does not equal race. I don’t think that it would be possible for a Chinese daytime TV host to be considered racist for mocking an American accent- which race would she be mocking? If we refuse to accept the racist bundling of an entire continent’s worth of genetic origins into an American label of Asian, who precisely is Rosie expressing racial preferences against?

    I also am with you on the long and disgusting history of stereotyping. It is a fundamental flaw of the way the brain works that generalities are assumed to apply to specific cases. I still fail to see how this event is stereotyping, but raising awareness of how we must be consciously aware of the brain’s tendency to do this, and then fight it, is a good thing.

    Anon Coward (12/18)-
    “I have no clue what you’re talking about, especially this line:”
    “’let’s consider making fun of the sound of language as separate from acting as if a person is lesser than you because they have genetic background that belongs to a different group than yours.’”

    I think it’s bad stereotyping to equate language with race, as Ms. Fang made clear in her article with her annoyance at the surprise that a person that looks Chinese could be a native speaker of American English. I would place this more along the lines of someone being made fun of for having a southern accent, than a case of aspersions being cast on the basis of genetic differences between peoples, or classic racism.

    I only gave the anecdotal example of the nationalistic tones of the other racists to give some texture to the concept that Asian languages don’t all sound the same, and the unique aspects of the Chinese language are being made fun of outside of any overtly racist constructs, even between Chinese. This establishes the context of the argument that it is possible to make fun of the sound of a language without being racist.

    “You then say:
    “That to me has more elements of “racism” than Rosie’s joke.”
    But saying that it has “more”, implies that Rosie’s joke had an element of racism in it. Prior you had just determined that you didn’t see anything in her speech that implied racism.”

    I think it’s obvious that racism occurs where there are various elements that combine to make an act in a context racist. I actually said, “I didn’t see anything in her speech that implied to me that people of what we in the US think of as the Asian race are lessor than the people of her race.” I was comparing the attitude of some Asians that people from their country are generally superior to those from other nations- and that the sense of nationality in that case is more closely associated with genetic origins and race. This seemed to me to be a clearer example of racism, to be contrasted with the examples where there are fewer of the requisite elements.

    You probably could guess that I was being a bit facetious about a campaign to get her off of the air. About the best we can hope for is to broaden the understanding of the people that make up her audience to the point where they don’t find her shtick amusing in the least.

  17. Anonymous Coward wrote:

    Static Flow,

    You can always tell when Rosie can’t be defended because the defense usually flies off into tangents where Rosie is no longer even mentioned. Try and focus on Rosie and Asian Americans. Not Asians from afar, 10,000 miles away, I’m talking about Asians that live down the street from you. But anyways…

    To say that language does not equal race is untrue. Perhaps it should not be the sole signifier of race, I agree, but to say that it has no greater context within one’s racial makeup is ludicrous. You want to examine language as if it were just a thing, wholly detached from the individual, as if attacking language in no way implicitly affects the one who speaks it. You’re argument for this claim is a European (i assume you stereotype that as being white/non-Asian) raised in Hong Kong and now speaks fluent Cantonese. They aren’t Chinese any more than learning Spanish in High School makes you Spanish. But you use this basis to suggest that Asians speaking the Asian language should also view their language with the same affinity, despite the fact that your European is not racially associated to the language that they’ve learned to speak. This argument rides on the idea that in order to BE it has to be exclusive to one race, and frankly nothing is exclusive to any one race. Anything can be learned, but that does not prove a frivolous connection of race to their language. I might as well say the Koran doesn’t equal Islam simply because I, as an atheist, have read the Koran and have not been compelled to convert and instead remain atheistic therefore the Koran’s attachment with Islam is a frivolous connection.

    You then take this flawed idea that language doesn’t equal race by posing this question:

    “I don’t think that it would be possible for a Chinese daytime TV host to be considered racist for mocking an American accent- which race would she be mocking?”

    Sorry, but this is a flawed question to come up with a bogus conclusion. First off, this is not a question of which race she is mocking as she isn’t mocking any race. Who she’s mocking are Americans. What makes this a false question is your erroneous assumption that “American” is a race. It’s not, it’s a culture of people / nationality, not a race of people. The Census does not have a box for American between African American and Asian / Pacific Islander. Utilizing this fundamental flaw has been the gist of practically all of your arguments. So no, I don’t think it’s “bad stereotyping” to equate language with race. I think it’s bad stereotyping to equate language with NATIONALITY.

    Again, I bring up this line that you wrote:

    “’let’s consider making fun of the sound of language as separate from acting as if a person is lesser than you because they have genetic background that belongs to a different group than yours.’”

    No, I don’t consider it this way because you have yet to give me any reason as to why that line of consideration should be taken into account. I could consider that the world was birthed into existence by a cosmic marshmallow, yet I have little reason to do so. You want to examine the language and ignore race by claiming that language and race do not equate. I find this highly dishonest if not dismissive. I would look on it with the same incredulousness if someone wanting to examine the LA riots but not talk about race and instead speculate only on childhood hyper-activity disorder in American youth.

    You believe that one can make light of someone’s language without presupposing a racist desire to belittle that individual, especially if that individual is racially different. I ask again, if you’re going to make the argument that this can be done, then provide an example of how one would accomplish this. You gave an example of someone being made fun us for having a southern accent, but that “someone” you did not designate racially. What if that someone were a black southerner and the one mocking his accent was a white northerner? You would still make the claim that mocking the accent has no basis on racial difference? If not, how did you determine this?

    Also, what you “actually” said was that “I didn’t see anything in her speech that implied to me that people of what we in the US think of as the Asian race are lesser than the people of her race. = thus no racism” and then you gave the anecdotal example of other Asians pulling from that the stipulation that “That to me has more elements of “racism” than Rosie’s joke.”

    I was asking how you made up for that inconsistency, which you avoided answering. Yes I realize you were comparing attitudes of Asians vs. other Asians, but that has nothing to do with Rosie or race.

    “I only gave the anecdotal example of the nationalistic tones of the other racists to give some texture to the concept that Asian languages don’t all sound the same, and the unique aspects of the Chinese language are being made fun of outside of any overtly racist constructs, even between Chinese. This establishes the context of the argument that it is possible to make fun of the sound of a language without being racist.”

    Yes, we Asians realize our languages don’t all sound the same, English speaking Americans on the other hand seem unable to distinguish, thus the Ching-Chong is a pejorative attached to any and all Asian Americans. And how exactly did you determine that these Asians with nationalistic tones were racists? You in no way proved that heightened notions of nationality is an example of racism, if anything it has only proven nationalism.

    So you’re arguing that because Chinese make light of their own language, this establishes your argument that one can make fun of the sound of a language without being racist? This is the same argument ascribed to blacks who use the term nigger amongst each other. They too don’t use that language under the guise of racial hatred, however they use it amongst those that are racially alike. I highly doubt that a white person would use your rationale to believe that he could engage in using that language as innocuously as African Americans. And if you want to make the claim that Ching-Chong is not language but “sounds of a language”, I would suggest you look back on the presuppositions of your arguments, it wouldn’t bode well.

    “I think it’s obvious that racism occurs where there are various elements that combine to make an act in a context racist. ”

    This statement says absolutely nothing. You’re not clarifying your points. You use ambiguous terms like “various elements” and “in context”. Perhaps these terms are obvious to you, but I would love for these to be clarified. What are these various elements and the context (IE the circumstances that surround a particular situation). What’s not clear, is what exactly these “requisite elements” happen to be. Perhaps if you shared them with us, your arguments may make more sense since the ambiguity of these terms sustain most of your arguments.

    If you want to broaden the understanding of the people that make up her audience so that they no longer find such “shtick” amusing, is going to require some clarity. And frankly all of this nonsense has pulled further and further away from the real issue, Asian Americans (not foreign Asians) and Rosie making disparaging remarks, not engaging in “accents”. Conflating the issue using Asian vs. Asian malice does nothing but obfuscates the underlying issue between Asian Americans and Rosie.

  18. cocolamala wrote:

    She defends her acts even though she just recently accused Kelly Ripa of insensitivity towards the gay community when Ripa objected to Clay Aiken putting his hand over Ripa’s mouth.
    This is also in the context of Michael Richards’ recent racist speech. Has Richards influenced media personalities to mouth more racist language?

  19. Media E-Activism wrote:

    These posts are treading on the very important terrain of discussion: i.e., distinguishing race from language, and racism from other kinds of discrimination or ignorance.

    In brief, racism is not based on any empirical facts of “race”–if the latter can be identified (’nother topic)–but the racist act often conflates race/sex/gender/class/language/ethnicity and uses received (often unconscious, unexamined) assumptions about social hierarchies to reassert the status quo. So making fun of a group with less power to refute the specific points of ignorance in the media that impacts the lives of Asian-Americans and reinforces racism, broadly defined.

    Racism is always slippery. Allowing it to go unchecked and uninterrogated is irresponsible. The people who raise the connections between different kinds of racism are not trying to establish a hierarchy of oppressions, but trying to say that demeaning racialized Others is racist, whether you are too priveliged to have noticed or not!!!

  20. Erik wrote:

    I watched a show on PBS about language where they showed that babies are attuned to every unique sound in a language, but as they get older they only distinguish the meaningful sounds in their own language. A specific example presented was that many western English speakers literally do not hear distinctions between two words in Chinese that are completely different because of tone, without training anway. I’m also thinking of the moras in Japanese that many non-native speakers just plain ignore. It’s pointless to criticise ignorance of language subtleties outside your own, it’s human nature.

    I remember one time in Las Vegas when I was younger, seeing a comedian with a lot of Japanese people in the audience making a joke that Japanese people name their children by throwing silverware down the stairs “ching wang cling chang” etc. The audience laughed politely, but I got a bigger laugh when I yelled in Japanese “you’re an idiot!”

    I guess I see a difference between racism and someone just being an ignorant idiot.

    Side note, a prior post referring to Amy Sedaris calling a chinese lady “Ching Chong”, try watching the “Strangers with Candy” movie. At one point she mocks an Indonesian kid by wearing a straw hat, slanting her eyes and with chopsticks in her mouth, saying “ching chong, your order sir, very hot today isn’t it sir?” And at several other points saying things like “go swing from a banana tree,” etc. I realize this is a character in a movie, but based on how she acted at that book signing it sounds like the line’s blurred.

  21. mstulin@hotmail.com wrote:

    I didn’t see the “chingchong” thing but I think this sort or thing is racist and tired and stupid. How would Rosie (who I think is one of the most obnoxious, untalented people I’ve ever seen) on television) feel if someone made fun of obese, crude, Irish-American lesbians?

  22. Jim Lee wrote:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywgxa5ORyIU

    Well, Mstulin, these guys actually *did* make fun of our obese friend for being fat and a hypocrite. Not very nice, but very funny!

  23. merq wrote:

    I remember one time in Las Vegas when I was younger, seeing a comedian with a lot of Japanese people in the audience making a joke that Japanese people name their children by throwing silverware down the stairs “ching wang cling chang” etc. The audience laughed politely, but I got a bigger laugh when I yelled in Japanese “you’re an idiot!”

    You, Sir, totally fuckin’ rock!!

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