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1. The Primary Contradiction » Argumentum ad nauseam on 15 Dec 2006 at 9:38 am

   [...] If I have to hear one more time how Black folk are ten thousand times more badassss than Asian folk, I’m gonna go psychotic. [...]

Comments

1. Anonymous Coward wrote:

   If he honest to god accepts this on behalf of the Asian American community, we might as well stop complaining about being unseen and stop complaining about being regarded as white and just accept it, we’re white. Just mark the check box next to where it says white. We might as well, if we’re going to refuse to defend the significance in being seen as Asian American. If you’re going to give them a pass for mocking the experiences of many if not all Asian Americans, then seriously… what is the distinction that we’re advocating for? ughh… I’m going back to throwing up (and writing an angry letter to the Councilman).

   [could someone Youtube this CNN show? I don't have a TV and considering, if I did I'd probably toss it out the window after I witness this bit.]

   Posted 14 Dec 2006 at 6:58 pm ¶

2. Rob wrote:

   Oy.

   His intentions were great up until this point. Crash and burn.

   Posted 14 Dec 2006 at 7:31 pm ¶

3. merq wrote:

   I don’t necessarily believe it’s an Asian-American thing. I think it’s simply an American thing.

   Like I said in the Brad Wollack thread, in today’s society apologies are treated like magic “it never happened” spells… regardless of how half-assed or obviously insincere they are.

   Posted 14 Dec 2006 at 8:55 pm ¶

4. Dena wrote:

   I saw this John Liu on Bill O’Reilly.

   Seriously, if this guy is who Asians have to represent them politically, then no wonder people don’t respect them. He was not particularily eloquent, was no agressive and assertive with asshat O’Reilly. He screamed, “Walk all over me!”

   Mr. Liu, I totally respect and appreciate your efforts to bring to light racism affecting Asian-Americans. Everytime some crap goes down, he’s usually headlining the protest effort.

   But charisma! Can we please get an Asian Jesse Jackson or an Asian Al Sharpton? Someone who is totally unafraid to get into people’s buisness and who might make up some rhymes and catchphrases about it all? Someone who will really take control and get out there and give ‘em hell? Someone who wouldn’t let O’Reilly interrupt them repeatedly, who won’t take a lame joke of an apology as good enough and acceptable?

   I don’t think Liu’s the best he can be. He really does come across as mild-mannered and small. Hopefully he’ll gain some assertiveness. The mild-mannered Asian thing has got to stop. It’s time to get aggresive.

   Posted 14 Dec 2006 at 9:01 pm ¶

5. Anonymous Coward wrote:

   Merq,
   You don’t think this weak attempt at saving face by accepting an apology that no reasonable person would deem sincere is a Asian issue? If Michael Richards offered an apology in the same manner, no way it would have been accepted. Fortunately or unfortunately for Asian Americans we aren’t inclined to make a big fuss if we want to keep the shiny trophy of model minority on our mantle.

   While I agree for the most part that the sincerity or insincerity is equally useless considering the offense is already done, the real importance resides in the Asian American community’s resolve, whether we reward them on that behavior or not. Seems we are. Apologies don’t suggest that “it never happened”, it’s our response that dictates that.

   Let’s face it, Snowjob’s apology to David Gregory today was more sincere than Rosie’s. And when the Bush Administration beats you out on the sincerity and promptness of an apology… well, that’s empirical proof Rosie sucks.

   Posted 14 Dec 2006 at 9:31 pm ¶

6. Minter wrote:

   Wow, we really need new headstrong and outspoken leaders to speak our thing. First, Adam Corolla – his interview along with his buddy mates on the show totally walked over him, and he was totally playing with it, instead spouting gibberish to deviate from the issue.

   shit, and didn’t they know it. when guy made his “joke” about his wife they all teamed up with “sweet irony” etc. and talking about their knowledge of asian culture i.e. asian female models who they happen to lust over.

   And now we have this Liu bloke taking the same, “oh its a bad thing, but it’s in the past now!” attitude. Hate to say it, but it really is playing to this weak, submissive stereotype.

   For the sake of comparison, take any black or latino leader – oh, forgot to mention the Jews. The moment there’s a hint of race demeanor about, they will pounce with an all out attack. People will call them crazy, but in the long term whites will realise how much they were affected by it.

   And look at the situation now – no one dares utter “nigger” because they know the ramifications. “ching chong, chinky” is still thought of as a vit of fun by whites. This has to stop – starting with more ballsy, bullish representatives.

   Posted 15 Dec 2006 at 4:22 am ¶

7. Y. Carrington wrote:

   And look at the situation now – no one dares utter “nigger” because they know the ramifications. “ching chong, chinky” is still thought of as a vit of fun by whites. This has to stop – starting with more ballsy, bullish representatives.

   Minter…Michael Richards dared utter “nigger.” In fact, he screamed it seven times in a public place with a lynching taunt. And white people from coast-to-coast made excuses for him. If you’re gonna compare anti-Black racism to anti-Asian racism, please get your facts straight.

   Do me another favor, Minter. Don’t ever refer to Black, Latino, or Jewish struggle as a “pounce.” This Black woman doesn’t appreciate it.

   Posted 15 Dec 2006 at 8:22 am ¶

8. Minter wrote:

   Right… bad choice of words. So Richards used “nigger”, and look at the outcome. Instant rejection from the venue – he was no longer welcome there. And with absolutely no prompting other than I guess form his PR agent (if he has one), he made an apology statement the next day.

   And so what if white people made excuses for the guy? They know he was deep in the wrong, he knew it too. It’s the general consensus that surrounds the word – compare that to the asian equivalent and tell me that it is taken as seriously.

   Hell, even the fat blob of rosie has stated, in her very own “apology” no less, that she would still use it in the future – despite seemingly knowing now that it causes offence. As if degrading us was no biggie, because hey, we’re different and don’t deserve the same racial awareness as black and latinos.

   Posted 15 Dec 2006 at 8:53 am ¶

9. Y. Carrington wrote:

   Minter, please re-read the articles about Richards and Kramergate on this very blog. And please check out what the mainstream media was and is still saying about the Laugh Factory incident. Better yet, go to YouTube and the Kramergate threads and read through the comments. Yes, real sensitivity there.

   “And so what if white people made excuses for the guy? They know he was deep in the wrong, he knew it too.”

   You gotta be kidding, right?

   Posted 15 Dec 2006 at 9:48 am ¶

10. Just Wondering wrote:

    Hell, even the fat blob of rosie has stated

    Isn’t this nice?

    What’s more offensive? Mimicking a language in a lame attempt at a joke, or visciously ridiculing someone for their physical appearance?

    Posted 15 Dec 2006 at 10:50 am ¶

11. Anonymous Coward wrote:

    Just wondering,

    If you haven’t noticed, niceties have pretty much gone out the window. If you are seriously trying to equate racial mockery with someone ridiculing Rosie for her REFUSAL to sincerely apologize and frankly mocking us again, then i think your scales need adjustments.

    I have to assume that you believe the black man that was heckling Michael Richards is equally bad because he called Michael a fucking white boy cracker after Richard’s racial tirade. Sorry, but that line of thinking is not equitable.

    While i agree that we should keep the level of conversation higher than insults, i think it’s rather dumb to say people are just as bad as Rosie simply because they mock her for her arrogance.

    I find it both sad and funny that in white society, it’s so rude and hurtful to mock someone over their physical appearance but that issue doesn’t seem to carry the same weight (no pun intended) concerning a physical appearnace that is Asian.

    Posted 15 Dec 2006 at 4:10 pm ¶

12. Minter wrote:

    Carrington: Well, these are just recent developments. It is still widespread, at least in the delicate world of society, that having all the black cusswords spouted is wrong. People will do it, but they realise it’s in the wrong, moreso than asian cusswords, and this example proves it in the case of “but I didn’t know it was offensive”. Show me a person bar the obvious redneck who doesn’t share that view.

    “And so what if white people made excuses for the guy? They know he was deep in the wrong, he knew it too.”

    You gotta be kidding, right?

    ——————

    Erm, no? Like I said, he made an apology because he knows what he said was in the wrong. Do you get that with asians when they get taken the mickey out of? No, it’s all a bit of harmless fun – they don’t expect to apologise for offending an asian, but with racist comments on blacks and definitely jews, they’re up poop creek.

    ———
    Just wondering: as anon said, it’s pathetic but then again humans have always resorted to underhand tactics and thrown all forms of civilised discussion when push comes to shove.

    It’s why socially, and politically, we still haven’t evolved despite having over a 2000 years of established goverments – we’re stall squabbling over land, resources, discrimination. The same crap as the dawn of mankind.

    Posted 15 Dec 2006 at 4:41 pm ¶

13. Just Wondering wrote:

    If you are seriously trying to equate racial mockery with someone ridiculing Rosie for her REFUSAL to sincerely apologize and frankly mocking us again, then i think your scales need adjustments.

    What I think needs to be adjusted is the attitude that a remark like the one Rosie O’Donnell made is automatic grounds for all-out personal attacks.

    I’m no fan of Rosie, and I’m not defending her comments on The View — in her attempt to be funny on the spot, she said something offensive.

    But tell me, is anything gained when the offended return the favor by calling her a “fat blob?” I fail to see where that does anything but escalate the name-calling. And because it’s a personal attack, to me it’s even worse.

    Not everyone who uses an inappropriate word or makes an insensitive remark is a horrible, horrible person. And perhaps Rosie’s insistence that people “get over it” is related to her own personal situation … after all, she’s likely been mocked and humiliated often in her lifetime, given her appearance and her sexual orientation.

    I’m not in any way suggesting that these situations be swept under the rug. But a little sense of perspective would help the cause.

    By the way, Minter, don’t you think someone who is offended by racial stereotyping should avoid using the term “redneck?”

    Posted 15 Dec 2006 at 5:29 pm ¶

14. Anonymous Coward wrote:

    Just Wondering,

    If you want to refute me fine, but don’t change the argument. I was simply answering your question as to what was more offensive. Anyone who poses such a question either stands on the issue that both sides are equally offensive or that one is far worse than Rosie. Now you’re arguing that nothing is gained from such personal attacks… that I agree whole heartily. What I don’t agree with, and what we were arguing prior was that it’s worse. Again, you state that this individual’s crass comment is worse than Rosie’s by virtue of it being a personal attack. You haven’t really convinced me they stand on equal footing. If it’s on the “value” of the comments then both are equally worthless. But something has made this individuals comments worse, at least in your mind, and I don’t buy this personal attack angle.

    Minter made his comment out of vitriol while Rosie made a comedic foible, fine. But I’m more concerned with respect to who it affects. Rosie offended Asian Americans, millions of us, I’m not even talking about foreign persons. To say it hurts worse because Minter’s comment was “directed” at Rosie while her comments “diffuse” amongst the million or so of us Asian Americans… well that is a defense of semantics not of Rosie. Sorry but Minter is not a celebrity (I don’t think) and I doubt he’s inundated with hero worship. He probably has a small sphere of influence, where as comments from Rosie have much greater impact on her personal world stage. The day when Minter’s criticism that she is a fat blob is circulated through thousands of television stations around the country and world, I’ll be sure to smack him/her on the back of the head for being an insensitive twit. But considering someone said this on racialicious which has a fair chance that neither Rosie nor 99% of her audience will be reading these comments. Rosie will never hear Minter’s comment, she doesn’t have to live that down… you want to make the same claim for many young Asian Americans?

    “And perhaps Rosie’s insistence that people “get over it” is related to her own personal situation …”

    Perhaps. Or perhaps she’s being an obnoxious/dismissive jackass. If you think personal attacks are fallacious, I think presupposing someone’s moral intentions based on a “perhaps” is equally flawed. No one has said she’s a horrible person, at least not until she gave this shit apology. Read the letters from the Asian American associations directed toward Rosie, she made a racist remark… not one called her a racist. All they’ve asked for is an apology, that’s it. No Michael Richards spiritual journey or pathological examination or racial harmonizing. Just a sorry. But it seems we aren’t deserving of such humility.

    And even if she was mocked and humiliated herself in her lifetime, what does that do with us or this situation? Is that grounds for mocking us or something? Or is this some kind of lame “I can take, so why can’t you” argument? Because she obviously can’t take it when it comes to gay issues. Ask Kelly Ripa how well Rosie can “get over” perceived offences.

    So I guess I fail to see how Minter’s comment is worse than Rosie’s. And I frankly don’t understand why you demand accountability in the legitimacy of someone’s personal attack without ever questioning the justification for Rosie’s. There is no tit-for-tat arguing going on, Rosie offended, and we can do nothing but accept it. I have yet to see Rosie face down, personally, any real criticism. I get crotchety when people want to bring in the “oh, both sides did bad things” rationale, as if it was some great universal leveler. They think it brings some balance to the issue, brings some “perspective”. I don’t see the logic in it, but then again, I do lack perspective.

    Posted 15 Dec 2006 at 8:34 pm ¶

15. Minter wrote:

    But tell me, is anything gained when the offended return the favor by calling her a “fat blob?” I fail to see where that does anything but escalate the name-calling. And because it’s a personal attack, to me it’s even worse.

    Yes. If she, and other racists who read this, see that we’re essentially exchanging insults, maybe she’ll understand the hurt caused as much it did to us. Oh, and I don’t know where your boundaries are regarding personal, but being asian is just as personal as being fat. It is who i am, after all.

    ———————–

    By the way, Minter, don’t you think someone who is offended by racial stereotyping should avoid using the term “redneck?” ”

    agaiin, if rednecks are offended by that they maybe they can start to understand the amount of pain it does to us.

    I’m not saying it’s the best way to go about things; in an ideal world, we’d inform people, they would listen, they would understand and we can all live better for it. But it’s clear it’s not working, none more so evident than here – she said, in her very own “apology”, that she might do it again. So tell me, what exactly is gained from that?

    Posted 16 Dec 2006 at 8:34 am ¶

16. Minter wrote:

    Just to add, I think the reason Just wondering is lamenting my comment (which, lets face it – on a specific race related forum barely has as much impact as popular national TV – though if this was shown on TV maybe then they would understand) is because you refuse to stoop to “their” level. It’s all good having moral grounds etc, but let’s face it, you’re really letting yourself be taken advantage of. Racists will continue to hurl abuse your way, knowing full well you’ll keep schtum, holding the pain they gave in. The sooner you understand that it’s not your responsibility to do that, the sooner racist attitudes can change.

    Posted 16 Dec 2006 at 8:44 am ¶

17. Just Wondering wrote:

    If she, and other racists who read this, see that we’re essentially exchanging insults, maybe she’ll understand the hurt caused as much it did to us

    No offense … but this is foolish thinking.

    When you were hurt by Rosie’s comments, what did you do? You lashed out by reaching for the most offensive phrase you could find to attack the person who offended you (fat blob).

    But when you lash out, the person you attack immediately and instinctively defends him/herself. So what you end up with is a brick wall of defensiveness. No understanding.

    I can’t begin to know Rosie’s feelings or intentions, but it’s likely she did not mean to offend and is only now acting like it’s no big deal as a defense mechanism against the criticism leveled at her.

    agaiin, if rednecks are offended by that they maybe they can start to understand the
    amount of pain it does to us.

    And you don’t see the use of that word — a stereotype if there ever was one — as offensive?

    So let me get this straight:

    “Ching chong” = bad.

    “Redneck” = serves ‘em right.

    Where do you stand on “hillbilly” or “inbred trailer trash”?

    Sorry. I don’t buy it. If stereotyping is wrong, then it is always wrong, regardless of the group that is on the receiving end.

    Posted 16 Dec 2006 at 3:52 pm ¶

18. Minter wrote:

    Of course it’s wrong. Like I said, not the ideal way to go round it. But clearly our “apologise right this minute!” stance isn’t working. They’ll apologise… but say to themselves… for what?

    Yeah, when it’s verbal attack and retaliation, of course we’ll defend themselves (not with asians though, it seems) – at first. Later on, when they’ve settled it will still be in their heads – that’s when they start to get thinking, until,

    “I can’t believe he called me that. Is it really that insulting to him…?”

    Bingo. Cogs in motion, attitudes start to change. Obviously this won’t happen all the time, but it’s a darn sight more effective than the “it was wrong, please semi apologise” approach that asians have been adopting for…ever it seems.

    Posted 17 Dec 2006 at 10:07 am ¶

19. Minter wrote:

    “I can’t begin to know Rosie’s feelings or intentions, but it’s likely she did not mean to offend and is only now acting like it’s no big deal as a defense mechanism against the criticism leveled at her.”

    ———–

    and this is what gets me. Who cares about her initial intentions if she crossed the line? Nazi officers could have felt full of remorse before they executed a few hundred Jews, but they still slaughtered them.

    Intentions and actions are different, usually they go hand in hand, but when they don’t, the results for the victims still apply.

    And how do we know she’s acting like it’s no big deal? If you want to fundamentally change a racist person’s view, you have to take them to the edge to realise the impact of it. By hiding away from that, it isn’t going to happen. Hence she’ll repeat it.

    Posted 17 Dec 2006 at 10:12 am ¶

20. Just Wondering wrote:

    Who cares about her initial intentions if she crossed the line?

    First off, I would hardly equate Rosie’s “ching chong” comment with the Nazis, but that’s a whole other issue.

    What I want you to think about is the remark I’ve quoted above. In your opinion, if Rosie “crossed the line” with a stereotypical comment then her intentions don’t matter. She is a racist, pure and simple, and deserves to be attacked.

    But you yourself use stereotypes to describe those people you don’t like. Doesn’t that put you in the same boat as Rosie? Do you not deserve to be attacked? Where does it stop?

    I know many people believe that only whites can make racist/prejudiced statements, that any slur or stereotype expressed by a minority lacks power and is harmless.

    I think that is bull, and only serves to further the divide between whites and others by creating a double standard that impedes understanding.

    As does the vitriol and hatred that flows on this site and others toward people like Rosie. While her remark was insenstive, there is no evidence that she acts in a racist manner toward anyone, nor that she “hates” Asian-Americans. Yet how many now hate her, all because of a five-second piece of video?

    It’s an extreme overreaction to someone’s words — insensitive words, yes, but still just words, and not aimed at anyone in particular, not intended to hurt or cause injury.

    So how would I handle a situation like this? The best approach would have been for Asian-American representatives to publicly denounce her comments, as they did, yet work behind the scenes to gain a meeting with Rosie, The View staff and others at ABC, where actual stories of harrassment and humilation at the hands of people using terms such as “ching chong” could be shared.

    That human interaction — real, direct, honest — is the only way to change understanding.

    But that’s just my opinion. That’s why we have blogs like this … to share points of view, right?

    Posted 17 Dec 2006 at 11:57 am ¶

21. Kim wrote:

    Just Wondering and Minter:

    Taking a cue from Y. Carrington, you do know that even in this forum the Michael Richards/Kramer mess was discussed so objectively as to render the intent, impact and overall impression of his “bad” behavior as just another mental excercise, right?

    Everyone was ready to defend him. And did. And purchased the Seinfeld crap.

    There was no concensus, even among Blacks all across the b’sphere, about the level of offense of Richards’ remarks, the degree of parity between the hecklers’ comments and his retaliation, or the ultimate damage done (many herald it as the new day for bringing out the double standard of the use of the n-word to the fore).

    The debate between the two of you has kind of spun my head, and I’m getting tripped up following it, but if I am following it, then someone committed the offense of hurling an insult , while J/W holds that the insult does not forward discussion or resolution, and only forces people into corners defending stances they may be willing to reconsider, were it not for the onslaught of recriminations. Minter holds that the insult will get Rosie to listen, cutting her in a deep place, as it were, and effecting a ‘major minority’ response.

    Again, if I understand it.

    While the hurling of insults is not productive, not really ever, sometimes it is because an argument of contentious situation is actually the response some people are most prepared for, having honed their skills at defense over the course of a lifetime. It may be second nature.

    Conversely, a discussion equating the nature of what may be understood about some deep hurt a party has (or may have) withstood, with the hurt or injury you have experienced at their hands, can change the tide of a conversation in an unexpected way. Someone familiar with fending off attack cannot hear you when you attack them, because the noise produced by the fight is like background music.

    You throw them off when you don’t attack, but inquire, and express a desire to understand, and to speak compassionately.

    I was mocked and laughed at in a store in the Mid-West (the first time in my life, I might add, and this just a few years ago) by a store employee. It stung, deeply.

    As I left the store I approached the employee, who was standing beside the co-worker to whom she had made the comments (though the comments and uproarious laughter were over-the-top loud, and everyone could hear).

    I approached, even though all the other store employees, as well as guys who loaded and unloaded merchandise from a supplier’s truck to the store, were in the immediate area.

    I was the only Black, they were all White, and we were five minutes from the Ohio/Kentucky border, which I assumed many of them crossed to get to work at the store.

    I addressed the worker who offended me, saying that I am sure that she knew how hurtful it is to have people ridicule and laugh at you simply because you walk into a room, and they find your mere physical presence absurd, and find it within their right to speak to that aberrance, that absurdity.

    I told her I am sure she knows that in those instances, there is nothing that explains how someone could take the opportunity to do that, when you’ve never exchanged words, never seen each other before, and you were just an individual going about your day, only to run into someone who tries to smash your self-worth to pieces just for the hell of it.

    I never mentioned her weight, her size, the generalized perception of large women, nor any personal feelings about her ( I really did not have any – she had as much a right to be out in public as I, shopping, working, eating, raising her kids and enjoying time in parks, etc.).

    The other employees , male and female, jumped in my face, threatened me, blah/blah/blah. But she said nothing. She heard me. She looked me in the eye as I spoke, though someone stood in front of her to “protect” her, and she nodded at times (in affirmation?) as I spoke, and even showed a reddening in the face, and lowered her eyes a few times.

    I believe I made contact. I believe the moment had lasting impact.

    The next time I went into the store, (six months beyond the meeting with the manager, his apology, his concern that I would call in the press, his instruction to the store employees…) the woman with whom the offender had shared all of her nasty statements came up to me and complimented me on my beautiful children.

    Inside of three or four seconds, I stared at her in disbelief, and searched the edges of her mouth, her eyes, even her shoulders for the physical signs that would belie her comments to me, and couldn’t find any. I shrugged, and said thank you, paid for my small item, and left the store.

    On the whole, this last contact aside, the mood was everyday usual, nothing exceptional to the negative or positive. That is all that is expected.

    Posted 17 Dec 2006 at 3:22 pm ¶