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1. The Primary Contradiction » It Comes Forth and it Shoots Through: Orientalism and American Discourse on 12 Dec 2006 at 12:24 am

   […] As of this hour, there has been no major coverage from the corporate media about O’Donnell’s open-face racism. How do we explain this? Many bloggers have pointed out that orientalism is taken less seriously by mainstream society than other forms of white supremacy, especially negrophobia. Asian Americans have said for years that anti-Asian racism seems to be beneath the notice of the general American discourse on race. While I agree with this general assessment, for me there are deeper questions about the blackout in O’Donnell coverage—-or to put it more accurately—-the lack of pretend outrage from good white liberal commentators over her remarks. […]

2. The 10 biggest race and pop culture trends of 2006: Part 1 of 3 at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 15 Jan 2007 at 11:18 am

   […] We started seeing more and more interracial couples in TV commercials. Virgin Mobile ran an ad campaign around a character named Cindy Yu, whose parents are an Asian woman with a vaguely Chinese accent and a Ali G-style white man. Helio recreated a guess who’s coming to dinner scenario, with a white girl bringing her Asian boyfriend. Volkswagen did almost the same exact setup in their Jetta ad, only with an Asian woman bringing home her white boyfriend. And of course, the much-commented-upon Mastercard commercial featured an white man and Japanese(-American?) woman getting engaged, and meeting each other’s families. […]

Comments

1. Y. Carrington wrote:

   If an African-American says he/she is from Cleveland to a white person who asks, “Where are you from?” the white person seems to accept the answer. But if an Asian-American born in the US answers that question, then that person, in disbelief, goes further and asks, “No, where are you really from?”

   Yes, that is true. But if someone is Black, there’s a whole ‘nother set of stereotypes to contend with, and ain’t none of them pretty.

   The oppression of Asian Americans and African Americans is very different, because the HISTORY behind the oppression is different. History matters here. Black folk in this country may be assumed by most whites (pay attention to who’s doing the “assuming”) to be American, but make no mistake, “American” means “white.”

   This is a white supremacist settler state, and the status of “American” is framed in the white man’s image. US-born people of color are only as American as their relationship to whiteness allows. Black folks continue to pay a huge psychic price for this “relationship.”

   Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 10:15 am ¶

2. dcase wrote:

   Interesting post…I’ve seen this sort of stuff happen to Asian colleagues many times and several times have had step in to correct people who incorrectly assume that someone is foreign when they are not. It is an unfortunate fact that many people in this country have not been able update their belief systems to cover all Americans.

   However, I have to make a slight criticism of your view that blacks have not been made feel “un-american”. In fact, the widespread acceptance of the ” Americaness” of black people is a relatively recent phenomenon. Black people have historically been viewed as not being real “americans” unlike their white counterparts. Moreover, the historical,psychology, and sociology literatures are replete with papers that discuss that most people see whites as “normal americans.” This view is expressed in various ways: questions of patriotism of blacks, symbols of america, views that America is a “white” nation, etc.

   Personally, I have been made to feel “un-american” in discussions. This is especially true. when people use American as an equivalent to White American. For example an Indian-American friend and I were talking and she made the point that her parents probably wouldn’t mind at all her marrying an “American guy” but her parents would probably die if she brought me home. And I, like the guy in the commercial, am from Chicago.

   This sort of stuff is more common among my foreign colleagues but often Americans fall into this verbal trap. If you listen to immigration debates, many people talk of the “overthrow” of white, Christian values. Yes, no one asks me “how do I like this country?” or “how long have you been here?” but I do get complimented on my “articulate” English on a near daily basis so I definitely have felt that.

   My point here is that you may be misidentifying the roots of the offense; the projection of foreigness on Asian-Americans and (American Latinos, for that matter) is due to the underlying belief that the US is a white nation. Other groups have not had the public relations blitz that blacks have had over the last couple of decades to help modify the public’s belief patterns.

   Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 10:21 am ¶

3. Y. Carrington wrote:

   By the way, you’re spot-on about the MasterCard commercial, Michelle. Come on, it’s about to be 2007, guys. Totally lame.

   Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 10:23 am ¶

4. Rob wrote:

   This site was originally praising this commercial as ground-breaking and acted as if it was revolutionary to showcase an Asian female without even realizing that after some thinking, it was actually a negative portrayal.

   I swear, even on sites such as this, racial ignorance still shines. The ad showcases an already tired stereotypical racial pairing which already receives much stigma among Asians. Asian women wondering where the anger from Asian men come from? Here it is.

   It also reinforces the stereotypical perpetual foreigner attitude. Congratulations, and I use the term loosely, on finally figuring it out.

   You’re like the person that hears a joke on Monday and finally gets it on Friday. Here’s a cookie.

   Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 12:47 pm ¶

5. Kendra wrote:

   I would just like to say that as a black person I and my parents have been complimented on just how articulate I am starting way back in the 2nd grade. Every parent teacher conference would end with “And she’s so well spoken.” So black people still get that too.

   Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 1:01 pm ¶

6. Rob wrote:

   I don’t think the reason for comments such as “you speak English so well” that are directed to blacks means to imply that you’re not American but rather that you’re stereotyped as constantly speaking in “ebonics.”

   Are blacks ever experienced this?

   “Where are you from?”

   “Maryland”

   “No, where are you originally from?”

   Unless blacks are constantly faced with that discussion, I don’t believe the idea that white America doesn’t accept blacks as Americans and using the reason that they also say “you speak English well” just doesn’t fly.

   Maybe if blacks are always hit with “Go back to your own country,” then we can talk.

   Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 1:06 pm ¶

7. Rob wrote:

   This is the original post.

   http://www.racialicious.com/2006/10/04/mastercard-priceless-commercial-features-interracial-couple/

   Carmen, the webmaster, should be one of the first individuals to detect the BS from an ad like this instead of referring to it as “cute.”

   Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 1:13 pm ¶

8. kim wrote:

   I don’t think the reason for comments such as “you speak English so well” that are directed to blacks means to imply that you’re not American but rather that you’re stereotyped as constantly speaking in “ebonics.”
   Are blacks ever experienced this?
   “Where are you from?”
   “Maryland”
   “No, where are you originally from?”

   Rob, I get the persistent and insistent, ‘where are you originally from?’ all the time…in airports, at bus stops, in the suburbs on a Saturday morning when I meet senior citizens out on a walk, got it in my tenth grade English class from my West Indian teacher - and I lived in Harlem in tenth grade.

   The Americanism that is thought to fall outside of the existence of Blacks is one which extends to customs, values, language and political disposition.

   If one is thought to project enough of the “traditional” American (read: White, White, White) values of respect for attaining an education, marrying and owning a home, perhaps claiming a Christian foundation, dressing one’s children in non-urban gear ( to give you a picture: quiksilver T’s and jeans, with skateboard sneaks on your bushy-headed boy who otherwise might be thought to be the older brother of the kid in the YouTube shot posted here today), being able to speak to social and political issues, and possessing the right type of credit card, health card, membership card/whatever…then American Blacks may be granted the eye-brow raising, approval conferring lightening-flash smile and shoulder-dropping-in-relief sigh that signals the person on the other side of the conversation thinks you’re enough like them, O.K., American-approved.

   What is your problem with Black people?

   What is your problem with believing that there are actually similarities in the disparities of treatment that Asians and Blacks receive? They are not the same, no - but good God, man, you seem to want the world to move away from ever examing the ever-prevalent issue with the problem that the conspicuous Black represents.

   Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 1:58 pm ¶

9. Sewere wrote:

   Rob,

   Point of correction: Some of us black folks get the where are you originally from too. Having a none-Anglo gives the impression that we cannot American at the same time, as I and my West-African and American family and friends will attest to. And this your line of questioning comes from everyone.

   Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 1:59 pm ¶

10. Sewere wrote:

    Kim,

    Thanks for laying it out like that…

    Rob,

    Are you the same guy posting on Jenn’s Blog - Reappropriate.com? I sincerely apologize if you’re not, but your tone of argument here mirrors the comments made on the discussion about the Single Asian Female Comic strip. And that argument was basically along the same lines of subtle condemnation you’re trying to heap on Carmen here.

    Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 2:59 pm ¶

11. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    Awwww… thanks so much for the cookie, Rob, you shouldn’t have!

    To be honest, I had no opinion at all about this commercial and wasn’t planning to blog about it.

    The ad is just another example of a trend we’ve written about here for a long time - the representation of interracial couples without any overt comment or drama. As contrasted with the old days, when depictions of interracial couples just *had* to involve some kind of disowning by the parents or ostracization from society.

    But about 5 different people wrote in about the ad, so I felt obligated to at least acknowledge it. And even then, I felt like I was just engaging in “mixed-spotting” - something we did a lot more of back when this blog was Mixed Media Watch.

    After the post went up and I followed the discussion, I thought some really good points were made. So when Michelle sent in this guest contrib item the other day, I thought it was a perfect opportunity to delve a little deeper into it. That’s the beauty of blogging: the conversation grows and grows.

    “Carmen, the webmaster, should be one of the first individuals to detect the BS from an ad like this instead of referring to it as ‘cute.’”

    Well, I’m flattered that you think I’m so infallible.

    You clearly have much more of a problem with this ad than I have. Generally I just find the ad kind of lame and schlocky. But I realize that not everyone is as cynical and heartless as me, so “cute” was my euphemism for schlocky - cause hey, some people like that sentimental stuff! I agree with Michelle that the commercial does promote the perpetual foreigner stereotype. But other than that, I find it fairly innocuous.

    Yeah, Asian female/white male couples are over-represented in the media compared to other types of couples, and I’m bored by it too. But if you look at census stats, they do make up the largest portion of interracial couples - so an ad like this is just a reflection of our world.

    Now, if you think there’s something inherently wrong (which I sense is a general theme in your comments) with the Asian female/white male coupling, then that’s a totally different conversation.

    Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 3:01 pm ¶

12. Deb wrote:

    I think this discussion goes to illustrate how tricky identifying rascist influences can be.

    It is indeed a “cute” commercial. Furthermore, I think anything that portrays an interracial relationship in a positive light has points in its favor– even if, as others have pointed out elsewhere, it is the “safe”, more widely accepted white man/asian woman relationship.

    Of course, it *also* draws upon and thus perpetuates the stereotype that American=white, not white=foreigner.

    I think that it’s important to realize that sometimes those racial assumptions are hidden, and it is only with careful reflection that they can be identified. Should Mastercard’s add agency been looking for those influences before they made the commercial? Yup. Should they have done even a modicum of research to ensure cultural authenticity in the details of the commercial? Absolutely.

    But I don’t think a viewer should be criticized because they didn’t recognize the racial nuances on first analysis. None of us is going to “get it right” the first time, all the time. Some of us, through personal experience, or fabulous mentors, or phenomenal natural sensitivity, or years of hard work, are going to recognize the hidden trouble spots more easily than others.

    The only thing I think it is fair to criticize is not being willing to rethink your position.

    Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 3:21 pm ¶

13. susanc wrote:

    I totally know where Kim is coming from on the “where are you from?” question! The worst instance was when I was introduced to a new division director at work, and the first thing out of his mouth was that question! Since I kept insisting that I was from Texas, he even went a step further to ask “What I’m trying to ask is where were you born?”

    And since I have an “American” name, but look Asian, I also get “what’s your real/original name?” For some reason, people get bent out of shape when I answer Leia Organa…I guess they’re not Star Wars fans?

    Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 5:03 pm ¶

14. kim wrote:

    Susanc:

    Love it. Love it.

    I never knew Princess Leia had a last name (’cause, you know, those people couldn’t be anything like mine).

    Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 5:11 pm ¶

15. MizuWari wrote:

    I think Anais Nin’s sage adage of people not seeing things as they are but as we ourselves are, is never more in effect than in these cases.

    Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 5:58 pm ¶

16. erica wrote:

    carmen, i don’t think it can be responsibly assumed rob harbors any umbrage with asian women+white men pairings. instead, i suspect, his frustration is in how these incessant, imbalanced representations of an asian woman and white man pairing contribute to social reality–that is, with this particularly familiar, frequent, and accepted interracial coupling, it ingrains and engenders in the american concious that this sort of pairing is much more tolerable, viable, and attractive than others–especially as opposed to an asian man with a non-asian women, or god forbid, an asian man with an asian woman (i don’t ever recall a time ming na wen or sandra oh was paired with an asian man on tv). in this instance.

    you could then criticize this argument and say that perhaps it’s simply popular culture imitating reality and not the other way around. that however is not true as academic findings have found or some as historical precedents reveal. i’ll relate with the latter as it’s easier (less to type) to explicate.

    take for example the standing of african american men. at first maligned and deemed unattractive, but with decade after decade of continued popular culture presence–syndey poirtier, popular american sports, hip hop culture, and now a positive presence on tv, ie taye diggs–the black stature has evolved from one of relative contempt to one that’s now seen as potentially attractive by women who are not black.

    or of course the most obvious historical precedent of popular culture informing, forming, and dictating social reality, is the white beauty paradigm. we live in a society where all physical attractiveness is judged by that metric, this white men and women, like myself, are deemed, unfairly, as the most ideal, the most attractive.

    asian men obviously do not have this level of acculturation yet. very slight progress has been made since the days of sessue hayakawa and james shigeta but the white american male insecurity that created “the yellow peril” and a myriad of other anti-asian sentiments (and laws, ie chinese exclusion act, in the previous centurty remain very strong in the machinations that occur in the entertainment industry.

    in stark contrast to america, in france, asian men are regarded as particularily attractive, good lovers, sensitive, etc. traits that american culture find not “macho” enough are regarded as attractive, sexy, and desireable in western europe, especially so in france, the most racially tolerant post-industrial nation (not that it’s peachy there either). the good standing of asian men in france is not soley due to a difference in what is found attractive in men within that society but a perception that was engendered by the popularity of films in france which depict asian male and french women romantic pairings through the past several decades.

    popular culture and media is not simply a reflection of reality. it is sometimes the hand that guides and dictates (new) social patterns, how we live and how we interact with others.

    in the past half-decade, the presence of sexually desirable asian american men have increased (just barely) in american movies (will yun lee, john cho) and tv (yul of survivor, ming tsai,), likewise the number of asian men and caucasian marriages has risen in america, since the 2000 census statistics. part of this can be credited to other factors, but popular culture remains an important, if not the most, factor.

    i admittedly subscribed, unfortuantely and embarrassingly, to some of the stereotypes of asian men despite knowing that they were obviously true of only a segment of that demographic. however, it’s hard to believe in the alternative possibilities when all you know/see is what the american tv, movie posters, magazines feed your mental conscious. but that was until i met my present boyfriend, an chinese american–he happened to be recording in a studio where i was modeling for a photo shoot–who not only looks and acts a stark contrast to all the distorted, demeaning, damaging asian male stereotypes/caricatures in america but provided me with a profound learning experience in exposing me to asian popular culture, namely japanese, chinese, and south korean cinema. in those films i saw something i hardly ever seen in american media and popular culture, the highly sexual, highly desirable, incredibly attractive asian male. my presuppositions, which were already rewritten by having met my chinese american boyfriend, were now being completely reconditioned into something much more balanced–an understanding that asian men are all things, obviously, but no more inclined to be the emasculated entity america wants you to believe. that when given the chance, like in asia, a racially homogenous society, asian men occupy all roles of society, the good and bad, the desirable and not so desirable.

    a year ago, i wouldn’t have been socially aware enough to find fault and something heinously egregious with this mastercard commercial. but now i know better. unfortunately with commercials like this, a very dangerous, damaging social reality is being perpetuated and promoted: that the asian man, again, should only occupy the role of the bad and not so desireable in america. i would like to see the other social possibility and reality presented in american popular culture and media, that of the roughly +20%* of asian men who are married to caucasian women in america.

    *projected to be even more by the next census

    Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 9:21 pm ¶

17. erica wrote:

    i forgot to add another salient historical precedent: the slimming down of american women bodies. what was once considered sexy a century ago would now not only be considered fat but even unheathly by some. the continual slimming down of the female physique in america–and globally–is the handiwork of popular culture (especially magazines).

    so to reiterate, asian men can be every bit as viable as their caucasian counterparts. it’s just hard to when popular culture is working so hard against you.

    Posted 08 Dec 2006 at 11:15 pm ¶

18. mr guy wrote:

    “take for example the standing of african american men. at first maligned and deemed unattractive, but with decade after decade of continued popular culture presence–syndey poirtier, popular american sports, hip hop culture, and now a positive presence on tv, ie taye diggs–the black stature has evolved from one of relative contempt to one that’s now seen as potentially attractive by women who are not black.”

    So black men are accepted now and don’t have to deal with a ton of racial issues and stereotypes when it come to the opposite sex ?

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 1:21 am ¶

19. erica wrote:

    yes, thanks for putting words into my mouth, mr guy. read what and only what is clearly expressed in my entire post and that particular portion you quoted. i said african american men are now viewed as potentially desirable by woman who are not black. that’s it! i made absolutely no comment saying or implying that there is not a myriad of other inequities still facing black men (and women).

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 2:57 am ¶

20. mr guy wrote:

    Well, that’s what I honestly got from that quote. I never said anything about inequalities in general, I was talking about stereotypes from the opposite sex.And I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth.

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 3:52 am ¶

21. Adrianna wrote:

    erica “especially so in france,the most racially tolerant post-industrial nation”

    I’m sorry to say that this statment is wrong. Erica you must have seen the riots that happen a year or two years ago in France. If you are African, Muslim or Jewish in France you are very discriminated against. can’t find a job , people won’t rent to you, and you are consistently harrassed by the police.

    I think that African Americans are not ask where they are from like Asian American or Latina americans, because of slavery. We can’t pinpiont a country of Origin in Africa. I’m west Indian and I still have to tell some people here in America that Haiti is not in Africa,but the Caribbean. Usually I get questions like this: Are you going to Africa for the holidays. No I’m actually from this side of the hemisphere.

    I think when it comes to Asian-American male in this country, The media has done a fine job at not showing them at all, maybe except for this year . I once said to this classmate that I didn’t care who I dated, Black, White Asian, Latino, this guys tells me why would you want to date Asian men, Did I not know that they have small penises. First I thought Eww !! and asked him How did he know, Did he make it his mission to measure every Asian men on the planet!! Was it the first thing he asked Asian male when he met them : Hey buddy How can I see what you’re packing ?

    I was just weirded out!!

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 4:42 am ¶

22. erica wrote:

    Adrianna said: “I’m sorry to say that this statment is wrong. Erica you must have seen the riots that happen a year or two years ago in France.”

    i am very well aware of that, Adrianna, which is was why i clearly wrote that “france [is] the most racially tolerant post-industrial nation (not that it’s peachy there either),” but you excluded my very important statement in the parentheses when you chose to quote me.

    i would not dare say france is without it’s racial problems but there is no disputing academic consensus that france is certainly much more sexually/racially tolerable than western europe. western europe more sexually/racially tolerable than america. if academic findings are a bit dry, allow me to share some anecdotal examples throughout the past century.

    japanese american actor/sex symbol sessue hayakawa became one of the earliest film stars and the most popular actor during his time in the silent film era around 1915 but as world war 1 arrived and anti-asian sentiments growing in america his career came to an early end. he then moved to france to restart his film career.

    the next prominent asian american romantic lead was in the dashing japanese american james shigeta during the 50s/60s who made some very important strides that shockingly we’ve yet to seen duplicated even today! like sessue, shigeta had been paired romantically with caucasian women in lead roles but surprisingly he even won the white girl over his caucasian male rival in one film, the ‘crimson kimono.’ but with the vietnam war, cold war and sentiments lingering for world war 2, his career ended and like sessue he began a career in france.

    more recent examples extend to african americans. during the 90s, legendary jazz singer/pianist nina simone moved to france in protest of racism in america. likewise jazz vocalist deedee bridgewater has also relocated her career to france.

    and in regards to penis size, studies have show asian men on average are only a half inch shorter than caucasian men and black men are only a half inch longer than caucasian men. hardly much of a difference. not like comparing an A cup to C cup.

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 5:35 am ¶

23. Koko wrote:

    How did I know this commercial would be here?

    I noticed that whole asian women coming from a foreign country too. Why???

    The first thing I thought was why does the Asian women have to come to Japan. If that was the case, why doesn’t the White dude come from Germany or Russia. Why can’t they both be foreign.

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 1:52 pm ¶

24. jazmin wrote:

    i have question. though it may be a little bit off topic…why this interracialpairing (asian female causcasion man) more acceptable to society as opposed to an asian woman dating an african american man or a caucasion man dating an african american woman for that matter?

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 2:00 pm ¶

25. jazmin wrote:

    Correction!!

    i have question. though it may be a little bit off topic…why is this interracial pairing (asian female causcasion male) more acceptable to society as opposed to an asian woman dating an african american man or a caucasion man dating an african american woman for that matter?

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 2:01 pm ¶

26. Lyonside wrote:

    Jazmin: It’s probably more acceptable for a number of reasons:

    Precedent: Colonization of Asia (in the 1800s, and later the faux-colonization and general exposure from the World War II, Korean War, etc, ) = more white (either European or American) single men, military or otherwise, who marry “native” wives.

    Better than the alternatives: I.e. in the US, there’s a negative history and stigma attached to white men/black women relationships, due to slavery, in which black women were often exploited sexually by owners, overseers, and other men, white and otherwise. Hence, even love unions between black women and white men have been looked down at or at least heavily questioned. That said, by the 1960s, it was still more acceptable (slightly) than black men/white women, for similar taboos/historical precendent. There is not the same history of racism and no real legacy of slavery of white men against Asian women in the US, (although other injustices, not negating that)….

    Basically, therefore, less taboo = more socially acceptable.

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 4:01 pm ¶

27. Dick Ho wrote:

    Erica, kudos for your post(s). It is the most succinct argument on the subject I have yet to hear, bar none. Best of luck in your relationship.

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 7:19 pm ¶

28. Lyonside wrote:

    ETA to my last post:

    Also consider that interracial marriages were illegal at some point in virtually every state/territory, and that some states did not allow IR marriages until Loving Vs. Virginia. Some regional/state laws specified black/white unions as illegal, others included Asian/white, Hispanic (usually Mexican)/white, etc. Not surprisingly though, I can’t find a case in which black/white unions were LEGAL while other IR marriages were ILLEGAL. Shows the preoccupation/obsession of the nation. A full history of the antimiscogynation laws are at http://www.lovingday.org.

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 7:29 pm ¶

29. Dick Ho wrote:

    Further to Erica’s comments regarding the evolution of black stature, much of it (in more recent history) was fueled by the massive marketing of Michael Jordon to suburban America.

    Until a similarily marketed Asian male pop culture figure is presented to American in this way, the possibility of romantic relations with Asian men will continue to be viewed by most women as “strange” and unfamiliar, thereby presenting a gulf that many would choose to bypass.

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 7:42 pm ¶

30. Adrianna wrote:

    Erica I did not mean to misquote you, but I still say that there France is lagging behing when it comes to tolerance. Yes many Blacks chose to go to France.You had Baldwin, Josephine Baker and As you Pointed Nina Simone. But When it comes to the history of the Caribbean where I’m from and France I have to say that tolerant they are not. Even Aimee Cesaire who with Leopold Senghor and Léon-Gontran Damas started the La Negritude movement in the 30’s trying to free their respective country from the colonianist grips of France. Even now Martinique is still A territory of France And Aime Cesaire is not Happy about it, he refused to Meet with President Chirac this year when He visited Martinique. So really it’s all about perception really France might had been a refuge For these African American,but for us it was about fighting to gain our independance. from France once and for all.

    Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 10:13 pm ¶

31. SolShine7 wrote:

    I’ve heard people be astonished about an Asian looking person having a name like Jane Smith. It’s not as unbelievable as they make it out to be.

    Posted 10 Dec 2006 at 2:39 am ¶

32. kim wrote:

    The mass marketing of Michael Jordan as the being the hallmark of an acceptable Black male image, made palatable enough to erase the taboo of Balck men as sex symbol, does not exist outside of any examination of the history of Blacks’dogged assertions that ‘we, too, are American.’

    Michael Jordan’s exquisite skill - and his form- were able to be mass marketed as such because of the temperment of the time: the generation of Americans (read: White) that had grown up with the mantra that “color/race doesn’t matter,” took it to heart in a pluralistic sense, and ate with the little black kids in school, danced with them at the school dances, slept, dated and married them post-college, and began to room with them in the big cities across the nation.

    MTV, and that other, now shamed MJ- Michael Jackson- ensconced so thoroughly into the hearts and imaginations of White children (and everyone else) that ‘that famous Black man’ is and loveable, adorable, desirable, AAAAgggghhhh! (now faint) that the seeds were well set, the soil well primed for the appearance of the less effete, more viral Black superstar.

    And do not dismiss Michael Jackson’s attraction to young girls and young women as merely non-sexual. It was not. Whereas Jackson had lost a sort of cache with Black America years before, having gone into a celebrity’s slump if you will, and had been down-rated for sexual attractiveness, much of that was swept away in the renaissance of the man with the whole Billie Jean era thing. And Black folks had written off this man as trying too hard to ‘be White,’ not merely appeal to Whites. It is almost as though in abandoning him as the boy genius and wunderkind, Blacks handed him off to Whites, who were then able to embrace him.

    Not to be slanted or skewed here, Jackson had recreated himself with the whole Thriller sound, incorporating far more of a musical delivery that allowed Whites to “enter” therein. He became a bridge, of sorts. Not the first, but at just the right time.

    There were enough Black basketball players going to school at Division I schools, and dating young White women (and this possible, again, because they were the babies of the movement) to have lessened the horror of seeing Black men as romantic figures, ones you might appear in public with. Michael Jordan is an outgrowth of all of that. It did not happen in a vacuum, and would have happened without him.

    One must be made palatable through wealth, or some other sort of excess, it seems, to attain the power necessary to command the attentions of Whites and carve out a position on the playing field. One must be, it seems, conspicuous to hold such a position.

    Posted 10 Dec 2006 at 2:32 pm ¶

33. kim wrote:

    With so much irritated speech about the White man/Asian woman pairing, are there any thoughts out there about why this is so prevalent right now?

    More precisely, is there a ‘profile’ of a White man that one would say falls perfectly in line with his seeking, or having, an Asian mate , as opposed to a White mate?

    Posted 10 Dec 2006 at 2:46 pm ¶

34. erica wrote:

    kim wrote: “With so much irritated speech about the White man/Asian woman pairing, are there any thoughts out there about why this is so prevalent right now?”
    –

    unless i misunderstand your question, i think i wrote about that in my posts(#16 and #17). basically that popular culture engenders the beauty, acceptability of white male/asian female pairings with incessant imagery which becomes internalized in the social reality of americans. so while +20% of east asian american men are married to white women and (i think it was) +30% of east asian american women are married to white men, almost all asian women in american popular culture are paired with white men, +99% of the time–distortion and imbalance leading to real world implications.

    kim wrote: “More precisely, is there a ‘profile’ of a White man that one would say falls perfectly in line with his seeking, or having, an Asian mate , as opposed to a White mate?”
    –

    i’m not sure what you mean by “profile.” there is apparently slang for that demographic you’re referring to though that i learned of just recently, in fact just yesterday in a chinese resturant. somewhat amusing in it’s succinctness but obviously not a kind term to be carelessly thrown around:

    “Trashcan Man”: Refers derogatively to Caucasian men who date Asian women. The phenomenon of this interracial coupling is that nearly always an obese or scrawny Caucasian man–who is consistently rejected by his Causcasian female counterparts–is involved in a relationship with an equally unattractive, and often fobby, Asian woman. The white man, often a Japanophile, usually seeks for an Asian woman who fulfills the American stereotype of the meek, submissive, yielding Asian woman; she is an ideal fit as she is the only person who would date him and is also someone who would not post a threat to his fragile–often nerdy–manhood. The jest in the term is derived from the perception that these Caucasian men are often seen as Trashcan Men, in that they always pair up with the most unattractive Asian women, thereby clearing up the dating pool for Asian Men. Term of largely Southern Californian origin and usage, where there are significant Asian enclaves in the Los Angeles, Orange County, and Bay areas.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trashcan+man

    love,
    erica (with some bits added by my boyfriend)

    Posted 10 Dec 2006 at 8:03 pm ¶

35. Rob wrote:

    My main problem is that Asian Americans fail to see how powerful media imagery really is.

    That’s my main gripe.

    I mean, Nazi propaganda managed to enslave the minds of a whole country; what makes Americans any better than Germans living during World War 2?

    My main point is that art reinforces life and life reinforces art. I’m willing to bet my next paycheck that there is a direct correlation between the interracial dating habits of Asian Americans and from what they see in the media. If American media showed more and more romantic examples of Asian men, I can almost guarantee that interracial dating among Asian men would increase. On top of that, when Asian women see how American society views Asian men as great partners, their interracial dating percentage would decrease.

    The proof is in the pudding when I browse the Lost boards and there are tons of threads of comments as to how (paraphrasing):

    “i’ve never viewed asian men like that before but when I saw jin with his shirt off, oh my god!”

    “did anyone catch jin last night?!?! Hot!”

    Individuals think that they can just brush away decades of racial and social brainwashing simply because they claim they’re too good for media manipulation. It’s laughable.

    Do Asian women that are in an interracial union bother me? Not at all.

    What bothers me very much is the huge disparity between Asian women/men and how one pairing is accepted while the other one is viewed negatively.

    Posted 10 Dec 2006 at 9:21 pm ¶

36. kim wrote:

    Erica, I asked about the ‘profile,’ for this reason, and it is in great juxtaposition to what you offered up:

    What we see (often):

    The man (White), based on the way they dress (impeccably) and the cars they drive (BMW, Porsche), are above average means (not out of the norm here, but still…): he is above 55, she is above 35 (fit, manicured, petite), and we’ve seen this all over Southern California in monied places like LaJolla and the environs, and if they are married (our impression -assumption) we get the feeling he may have been a professor or mentor of some sort, and she his mentee or graduate student, and then they began a long-term committed relationship.

    Perhaps what you are speaking of is indeed prevalent enough to have engendered the term and usage of said; I do not at all doubt it. I just had not expected that to be what you offered.

    And while I don’t see the breakdown (guess i’m tired-i apologize) of the reasons for the sexual attractive and appeal of the Asian woman, I am familiar with the images that flood the market and the psychological effect that has on men, as reflected in conversations that I have overheard.

    Posted 10 Dec 2006 at 11:51 pm ¶

37. Sewere wrote:

    Rob,

    I’m definitely in agreement with you on the negative portrayals of Asian Men (and if I might add, Black Women) in the media. Like you, I know that it definitely fuels the disparity between Asian women and Asian men interracial dating, and it is extermely important to promote (hell, shout for) an increase in the number and diversity of Asian male roles (including Asian female roles because when you think about it Asian females in the media are portrayed as submissive and subservient almost all the time). One thing I appreciate about what Carmen and Jen have helped me learn in the past few months, is that promoting an increase in Asian male roles in movies must also be coupled with pushing for less stereotypical sexist and more empowering roles for Asian females, all of which speaks to the diversity of lives of experiences of Asians and Asian-Americans.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is more complicated than just flipping the script and having more Asian males because it doesn’t take apart the sexist slant of Asian female roles that are currently being peddled.

    Peace.

    Posted 11 Dec 2006 at 3:51 pm ¶

38. Hoa Pham wrote:

    One ad in Australia had a mixed couple like you describe where the Chinese girl was meeting the white parents. When asked where she was from she said “Ballarat” (a regional town in Australia- where there are 3rd-4th generation Chinese from the gold rush). So ads can be enlightened- sometimes (it was advertising lamb).

    Posted 11 Dec 2006 at 10:44 pm ¶

39. tanya wrote:

    Michelle Leung takes a very intriguing look at who we view as “American” and who we view as “foreign.” I am an African-American, and though my sense of place in America is not perfect, I have never felt or been given the impression that I am not American. I have seen the Mastercard commercial Leung talks about and, like so many other commercials, I took it in with eyes glazed and gave it no second response.

    The commercial perpetuates the idea that Asian Americans are exotic and foreign, not true Americans. We are supposed to think that it is lovely that this foreign Japanesse girl is finally integrating herself into American society by marrying a nice white boy from Chicago. However, there are Asians of all kinds who are Americans. They have lived here for centuries. They built this country (remember the railroads built by Chinese laborers?) The Japanese remained faithful in the United States when they were interned and treated like criminals. Often, the minorities who are the last to be seen as Americans are the ones who have most proven their allegience.
    Mine Okubo’s text, Citizen 13660, is a moving account of Okubo’s time spent in an American interment camp after Pearl Harbor. When the Japanese-American prisoners were asked if they would give up alleigence to Japan, only one-tenth said no. Even when there own government falsly imprisons them, the Japanese in this country maintained their American identies. Okubo writes, ” in the history of the United States this was the first mass evacuation of its kind, in which civilians were removed simply becuase of their race. Nothing had been prepared or planned for this rushed and forced evacuation. There were untold hardships, sadness and misery” (Okubo ix). Sadly, the white, American mainstream media is sending all Asians to Asia, when they have fought harder than anyone to live in America.

    Posted 13 Dec 2006 at 2:13 pm ¶

40. kim wrote:

    > We are supposed to think that it is lovely that this foreign Japanesse girl is finally integrating herself into American society by marrying a nice white boy from Chicago.

    Really?

    That the young woman is depicted as foreign-born, and Foreign, is there to be sure, but do you really only see some penultimate arrival at achieving (achieving!) legalized American status? Does everyone see it this way?

    Not dismissing any comment made above, but…does no one see that the young man is making an effort to respectfully fit in with this young girl’s parents? Does no one see his intention and hope to be found acceptable?

    I never inferred that the young woman had not become thoroughly entrenched in her life here, and could just as easily assume she had naturalized. I certainly did not attribute to Mastercard or the young depiction a “step” into normalcy, i.e., American-ness.

    That makes it so much more agenda-filled, and insulting, as opposed to an affront to sensibilities and sensitivies. I don’t find it there.

    Posted 13 Dec 2006 at 2:35 pm ¶

41. Mehmet wrote:

    “Does everyone see it this way?”

    Nope, just a whole heck of a lot of Asian women.

    Posted 14 Dec 2006 at 4:51 pm ¶

42. herpeapod wrote:

    Based on what?

    This was not a ‘lift the race’ ad.

    Posted 14 Dec 2006 at 10:46 pm ¶

43. Anabell wrote:

    Interracial situations like this happen every day in America. The fifth generation American who is of Asian descent faces another situation, let’s hope that Mastercard makes a commercial on that too. I am a minority. I do not feel in any way insulted. I love cultural studies and, as kim posted on December 13, I just saw this ad as a guy “making an effort to respectfully fit in with this young girl’s parents”.

    Posted 04 Jan 2007 at 1:14 pm ¶

44. Lydia wrote:

    To whoever said the commercial is a representation of our world, I’m afraid you are wrong. It’s been proven that the largest interracial dating/marriage pool takes place between Blacks (both african-american, blacks, and Africans) and whites. Yet you will see these relationships attributed more to films or tv shows.

    When it comes to asian females/white males, rarely will it be all that simple, an interracial relationship that is just that; a relationship. There will always be the criticism that asian females are submissive and white-washed, and the white male is unattractive and sometime not intuned with a social life. It doesn’t help, not just asian men, but anyone who sees these relationships founded on such superficial reasons, that there are commercials promoting the exact essence that raises an eyebrow in the first place when an asian/white male couple comes along.

    Posted 21 Jan 2007 at 10:17 pm ¶

45. Lyonside wrote:

    Lydia:

    1) remember that there is a difference, mathematically, between population SIZE and population percentage. In other words, black/white couples may be more numerous because there are simply more black and white people than Asian people in the US. But the percentage of black/white couples over Asian/white (or Asian/other group) may (Or may not, I don’t have the stats) be smaller.

    2) >When it comes to asian females/white males, rarely will it be all that simple, an interracial relationship that is just that; a relationship

    Um, both as a product of an IR and as a member OF an IR, couldn’t you say that for EVERY interracial/ethnic/religous couple, not just an asian/white one?

    Posted 21 Jan 2007 at 10:34 pm ¶

46. Michael wrote:

    As an American who married a Japanese woman this year and moved back to America with her, I find:

    1. The commerical very cute
    2. This discourse ridiculous.

    You have to pick some sort of combination to get the fish out of water story. And guess what-this time the picked an American Caucasian and a Japanese woman. Some other time and place they may pick a different pairing. Am I upset that the guy isn’t obviously Jewish like me. No, couldn’t care less.

    We personally had our meet the parents moment this October in Japan and it was about 90% like the commerical.

    My wife who is a US experienced, socially “PC” Japanese excitedly woke me up two nights ago to show me this commerical and sent it our relatives because she thought it was cute.

    The dialogue that is going on here would be the equivalent of her saying “Why did they use someone from Osaka-you know Tokyo women are much more international….etc”

    Either enjoy the commerical or not just like some CSI episodes make sense and some seem a stretch…….

    Posted 14 Feb 2007 at 11:12 am ¶

47. ImTanNotYellow wrote:

    “You have to pick some sort of combination to get the fish out of water story. And guess what-this time the picked an American Caucasian and a Japanese woman. Some other time and place they may pick a different pairing. Am I upset that the guy isn’t obviously Jewish like me. No, couldn’t care less.”

    Dear Michael, I’m afraid that you’re missing the whole point of the dialogue that is being discussed here. The fact of the matter is that as you say “some other time and place they may pick a different pairing” doesn’t seem to ever happen when pertaining to Asian-Americans. Your attitude describes many non-Asian Americans views on things like this is that it is easily dismissed because it’s not overtly racist. However, the fact that there are no readily available viewpoints (or in this case, commercials) to the contrary does strike a racist chord.
    Sure some episodes of CSI make sense, while others don’t. But in the case of media and societal portrayals of Asian-Americans, it never seems to make sense.

    Posted 14 Jun 2007 at 9:37 pm ¶

48. Lyonside wrote:

    Michael: Watch yourself, you’re following the “how to shut down a racism argument” playbook.

    Among them:
    - playing the “My best friend/significant other/coworker thinks it’s fine” card - as if one person’s opinion completely invalidates everyone elses, just because they know you.

    -dismiss anyone who criticizes (or in the case of some arguments on this thread, merely question) as being too sensitive

    - compare the situation to something totally different and non-racial (CSI? Please…)

    - assume that you have the right to tell anyone else whether they should or should not be offended or concerned. The better way to approach would be to say,
    “My wife and I don’t see it” and then tell us why. But please, don’t tell US what to see or not to see.

    Posted 15 Jun 2007 at 1:57 pm ¶

49. rose wrote:

    i love this site andall the postings. everyone brings up such a good point. im doing a group project in my race and racism class for school and I am going to use this site as one of my sources.

    Posted 07 Feb 2008 at 10:22 pm ¶

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